The message blew our children’s world into a million pieces Part 4

[Enabler]

Skip

1. Do you hope that if she can't get a custody agreement that she likes or if the kids act up too much, she will call off the move? Reality defeats fantasy as you often say.

I don't believe a custody agreement has any bearing on the move other than a robust custody agreement gives her more confidence to step to the next lillypad knowing that certain things (access) are secured. I do not want to prevent her from jumping to the next lillypad but I am indifferent as to whether or not I provide her security for that jump.

2. Is your goal with the divorce to continue to be passively resistant and make the process as discouraging as possible for her? Is this in hopes that she will let it go? Is wearing her out your negotiating tactic?

I am passive (except for acting when "the legal process" requires me to act), I am not resistant. No further comment

3. Are you preferring to keep agreements informal rather than executing a formal agreement and filing them the court? What is the advantage you see with this?

I believe that there is some formality in recording lines of agreement via email. I understand that it is not legally binding however a certain level of justification will be required to "undo" these written agreements should they be tested in court. My W would be the only person who would be looking to un-agree what has been agreed and she has initiated the documentation of such agreement, so that to me would seem like an even harder hill to climb. I have looked at some of the online parenting plans suggested by Kells (Thanks Kells) and will be looking to fill one in this week. This can be submitted to the courts.

Knowing my W, I know that there is minimal advantage in pushing her into anything. Think Jujitsu (as discussed in this thread). Me actively pushing to formalise = pushing. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it has to be done in the right way.

4. A few months ago you argued with members that 50%/50% was not something you could do. The fatal flaws were your work schedule and the lack of anyone to help you. You said you couldn't work it out for your mom to help. Do you now believe you can handle a strict 50% schedule? By strict I mean without help from your wife.

100% yes... I have work commitment to facilitate 50/50 and have demonstrated for the last 3m that WFH is not only effective but more productive.

5. A few months ago you argued with members that keeping the house was not financially viable option for you. Do you think you could keep it now? That would be great for the kids. What changed?

A few months ago there were 2 things that acted against keeping the house 1) My W's likely claim on capital would be higher if I was disney dad, there would be less justification for me to have more capital as I would only be providing for the kids for a weekend period. 2) I could have made it work with lodgers and other work-arounds but my justification for keeping the house I concluded would be that I was trying to keep the dream (our marriage) alive rather than having any sound rational justification. I didn't want that (holding onto the banana).

Now there are several things that change that position 1) Potential change in capital split with 50/50 2) Change in Child Support which reduces direct outgoings 3) Openness from W re OM and confession of "Loving him and wanting to see him", that could change to "live with him" in the short/med term and then he would be taken into consideration when "needs" and "provision" were considered in financials e.g. no spousal, different capital split. 4) Zero interest rates forever so way way way easier to sweat an asset as carry costs are lower. 5) BIGGEST FACTOR The kids will be here 50% of the time vs 14% of the time, the house is a HUGE source of consistency and security for the kids and would be worth sustaining that for them for ~10yrs.

There's a lot of ifs and buts in that and in many respects it relies on the financial deal I can negotiate, and what happens with house prices. There are a lot of moving parts and it's far from black and white... it's an outcome and I'm exploring all outcomes. It would certainly be my preference though.

6. You have a divorce action filed and pending. At what point do you think having an attorney actively involved makes sense for you? What is the trigger point? Will you try to take this all the way without an attorney if you can?

Financial agreements have to be checked at some point by independent lawyers, so no I can't make it all the way to the end without my own lawyer. I think the trigger would be her attempting to force me (with her own lawyers) to do something that was either unreasonable or costly in the realms of kids or financials. As of now her attempts to do these things have been manageable with a firm (but not attacking ) stance.

7. If this custody agreement can't be made - are you fine to just see how it goes for a while?

A custody agreement would be best for all, I am not disagreeing with that. There are already glimpses of what is to come with a conversation on the weekend where she wished to change the changeover from Sunday to Friday... the reason being that at the end of her first week with the kids she has someones Birthday party on the Saturday evening... In the long term this variability will be an irritation for me and unsettling for the children, however, in the short term I can use this variability to increase parenting time and increase the evidence (should I need it) that I am not the chaotic parent who places a Birthday Party over their parental responsibility. She's particularly adept at shooting herself in the foot by her own choices.

8.  If you are called to stand before the court, will you go it on your own? Is it situation dependent?  For example, if your wife wants to file the custody agreement, will you be OK to let her attorney do it for the two of you?

Absolutely not

9. If the courts end up making the custody agreement, what do you think your chances of getting 50%/50% is a contested situation?

It's not so much a case of me thinking I have a high chance, it's more a case of I can't see a good reason why I would not. I also know that she now see's 50/50 parenting as an answer to prayer now.

10. You have an extremely strained relationship with your wife's partner. He has made overtures to heal the divide which you strongly objected too. Understandable given the affair. He will obviously be in your children's life. How do you envision your future relationship with him? What do you want your children to see?

He is a manipulative man who has little or no intention to be truthful or honest with me. After said "overtures to heal the divide" and my requests for clarity about his message and his intentions he spoke to me at our youngest D's Winter fair (late Nov19) at school. He made great claims that there was nothing going on between him and my W and then proceeded to tell me (I allowed him to dig his own moral grave) a very long string of lies about what had gone on and alternative meanings to his email. By Jan20 my W is claiming there is something going on and she is in a relationship, by Mar20 my W is claiming she is sorry for diverting her affections to another man in 2015/16 but "loves him and wants to continue to see him".

I can see from your previous messages about OM that you feel that he might be attempting to build bridges in preparation for the future, maybe even have "good intention"... yet even the bridges her attempts to build are full of lies and manipulation. What kind of message do you think I should give to my children about such a person? If your children were to live with a convicted paedophile would you teach them about what is and isn't appropriate sexual behaviour? If your children were to live with a convicted thug, would you teach them how to be safe and defend themselves? OM would very much like for his historic AND CURRENT behaviour to be erased from the moral record with which people should use to gauge how they interact with him... I do not. I do not think it is unreasonable to expect OM to make changes to his behaviour before I change the way I deal with him. I have given him sufficient chances over the past 4 years and he has failed to change.

Hope that answers your questions sufficiently

Enabler

[Enabler]

I don't understand the apparent resistance to have a lawyer retained and ready "at a moments notice" to give Enabler advice, review agreements or even move forward with filing things in the courts.

Broadly speaking Enabler and I are "thinkers" and I believe we often track together in our thinking/analysis.  (completely separate matter if that thinking is helpful/accurate/right..whatever... Being cool (click to insert in post)

I say that to hopefully get Enabler's attention when I say that I can't for the life of me figure out the resistance to doing this.
 
Enabler..have you ever retained a lawyer?   (that may be it, sadly I've had to do it quit often..so it's just a thing I do now without much analysis.  I'm convinced they've helped more than they've hurt.)


2nd question/issue:  Yes it is relevant when evaluating the advice from others to ask "If I had taken your advice in the past, where would I be now?"

Please hear that my advice has changed because the facts on the ground have changed DRAMATICALLY (IMO).

That being said, in the past (as Skip pointed out) there was usually a thoughtful narrative of why you were not going to go down the advised path and you stuck with that narrative (which I commend) against overwhelming advice to do something else.

Now...I'm seeing/hearing that you don't want to "close the deal" (sign it...finish it...hurry to the finish line) whatever you want to call it, and I can't figure out what your thoughtful narrative is.

I don't want to finish the 50/50 deal on the table because...  (I couldn't fill in your reasoning, let alone express if I agreed or disagreed).

A long winded way of saying that I don't understand and if it was me, most likely I would be acting this way because it sucked/hurt/shouldn't be/I thought it was wrong.   

Pain has a way of clouding decision making (at least for me), especially when there is not an obvious deadline.

We simply don't know when she will "flip" and remove the deal.  Once we know the answer, it will be too late.

Enabler...I'm so sorry this is happening to your family.  It's a great injustice.

My appeal to you is that your children will be VASTLY better off with you in a 50 percent parenting position.  VASTLY...

Hey FF, I have always respected your views and always seen your advice as valuable. Like you say you appear most aligned to my way of thinking and as such I find your questions thought provoking.

1) Why I don't have a lawyer - I think I touched on this a few posts ago, but in essence it comes down to fear. The chances I am giving my W to move around and act with somewhat impunity are seemingly irrational, and it's tough (because of it's irrational nature) to explain why I am allowing her to do so. I fear that if I were to work with a lawyer, they would encourage me to act rationally (as have many friends and family) to prevent this acting with impunity, to act to control her. I still see opportunity in not controlling her, as much as her chaos could work against me (which standing strong and having sturdy boundaries has prevented her from causing damage), her chaos can certainly work for me. I know that a lawyer doesn't inhibit me from taking advantage of those vacuums, but they may well encourage me to start pushing for them. My T has been helpful in instructing me how and when to take steps forwards and when to shield. I have a distrust of lawyers and see them as wishing to be combative rather than pick-n-drive.

There is no good reasons for me not having a lawyer on retainer.

2) As mentioned in the previous post, I am certainly not averse to locking in the 50/50 deal, and see that this is pretty formal now with a good amount of correspondence originating from her to that effect. I would agree that this needs to be formalised FURTHER by means of a formal parenting plan, which I am looking to draw up using online templates. I had a good chat with my sister who has experience in Parenting plans through her job as a Head Teacher at a primary school.

Enabler

[kells76]

Good to hear from you again. Thanks for the insights and answers -- really helpful for understanding how you're thinking about your situation.

I believe that there is some formality in recording lines of agreement via email... a certain level of justification will be required to "undo" these written agreements should they be tested in court.

This would be good to get airtight confirmation one way or the other. In the US this sort of thing can vary state by state. I would recommend finding the specific law for your area and being 110% certain of how this works. There is no room for preventable bad surprises... I bet we are on the same page there. Reach out for support from the group if we can research this for you. I'm not UK but I know other members are and would be happy to chime in. I'm saying all this as a working scientist.

have demonstrated for the last 3m that WFH is not only effective but more productive.

Sounds like your employer would support your WFH as your "new normal"? True?

no I can't make it all the way to the end without my own lawyer.

OK, good to get clarified.

There are already glimpses of what is to come with a conversation on the weekend where she wished to change the changeover from Sunday to Friday

Am I understanding correctly that she is wanting to shorten her PT? Is this documented in an email?

...

I fear that if I were to work with a lawyer, they would encourage me to act rationally (as have many friends and family) to prevent this acting with impunity, to act to control her.

Thanks for the clarification and sharing where you're coming from. I can relate in that sometimes I also fear pushing to get professionals involved with DH's kids, though for me it's because I'm afraid that their mom will react by attempting to alienate them and manipulate their desires to resisting the parenting plan and resisting professional involvement.

I know that a lawyer doesn't inhibit me from taking advantage of those vacuums, but they may well encourage me to start pushing for them.

Maybe, maybe not. There is no concrete data at this point indicating either way. This is dependent on the specific L and on how you present your needs and requirements.

A lawyer works FOR you. Let's say you interview 3 and none are a good fit. Done, none hired. Let's say one might be a good fit, because you're explicit in the preliminary meeting: "This is what I need -- I need no pressure and no pushing. I need someone for legal technical details only." OK, you pay for the 45 minute meeting and that's it for... let's say... 8 months. You don't get charged anything because you aren't contacting the L. The L, who works for you, knows that your terms are "I'll contact you if or when I need you. I don't need you reaching out to me". In 8 months, you email L "Please review this doc for loopholes". You pay for that email and are done.

You don't pay to "keep that L on retainer" the whole 8 months. Typically you pay when they are actually doing something for you. We had a 4 year break in contact with our L. It's not like you have to pay a monthly fee.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are quite a few L's out there who "get" your mindset and would be fine with your terms of "No pressure and no pushing. We do it the client's way and only communicate if and when the client desires." Of course, it takes meeting with a few to find them.

Food for thought.

I would agree that this needs to be formalised FURTHER by means of a formal parenting plan, which I am looking to draw up using online templates. I had a good chat with my sister who has experience in Parenting plans through her job as a Head Teacher at a primary school.

Kudos for these concrete moves. Your kids will benefit. Good to have experienced support to lean on as you work on PPs. 

[Notwendy]

If your children were to live with a convicted paedophile would you teach them about what is and isn't appropriate sexual behaviour? If your children were to live with a convicted thug, would you teach them how to be safe and defend themselves? OM would very much like for his historic AND CURRENT behaviour to be erased from the moral record with which people should use to gauge how they interact with him...

This is kind of a moot point argument, because, if OM was a convicted criminal, then there would likely be some kind of legal arrangement where he could not be near your kids at all.


"Amoral" is broad. It seems more likely that he's a slimy person rather than criminal. It sounds like you are chosing to withold what he wants until he changes his amoral behavior. That's fine, but if he's going to be around your kids, it's more about them than him or you.

Imagine 15-20 years later your child is getting married and is stressed out because she wants you to walk her down the aisle and mom insists on bringing OM, or whatever OM she has at the time.

Our kids learn more from our actions, what they see, than what we say. IMHO, your best way of demonstrating morality is to model it for your kids- and at your place it's your environment to control. I think kids can see the difference. If you can be cordial,  it will make things easier all around. Imagine all the times you all might be in the same place- kids' plays at school, sports events, graduations.

[Enabler]

Sounds like your employer would support your WFH as your "new normal"? True?

This is correct. WFH has opened up the whole business to working practices which were otherwise barred in my industry. The genie is out of the box now. We've proven it can be BAU from home. It will be AT LEAST Sept till any return to the office is viable and more than likely NY.

Am I understanding correctly that she is wanting to shorten her PT? Is this documented in an email?

She would like to switch changeover day from Sunday to Friday, a day that she previously preferred, however her reasoning for the change over summer was that there was a friends birthday party she would like to attend on the first weekend of the post her moving out plan... she is moving out Friday 26th June, party is on 4th July. In theory it would change her parenting time by 2 days as a once off. I made it clear that this arrangement did not work when I was back in the office but didn't see the point in fighting this nuance now as long as it was noted that this was a summer arrangement and did not work when back in the office was going to happen. I did say that this type of behaviour was the reason why I would like a specific parenting plan and pointed out (diplomatically) that I no longer wanted to have these types of discussions which she considered reasonable as it was unhelpful for me and the kids to maintain certainty with our lives.

Thanks for your words of support Kells.

[Enabler]

Notwendy,

I hear you on the moot point and I was being a bit facetious. However, how would you (anyone) suggest I interact with a man who despite asking for the truth and honesty, he has failed at every single possible hurdle to do so, he is actually proactive in attempting to pervert other peoples reality. I didn't go up to him at the Winter fair, he actually came up to me. He initiated chats with me. He sent me 8 page emails telling me "his truth"... a truth I might add bares absolutely NO comparison to evidence I have seen. So how do I actually go about creating some kind of truce with a man like that?

The guy lies with no apparent reason and lies even when confronted with evidence proving the contrary! 

I'm just lost how to create a truce other than to live in parallel with him.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother is manipulative and has lied so much to me, I don't know if she's telling the truth or not. One of her motivations for lying is to maintain control- to keep me in the dark, because if I don't know what is going on or if I believe her, she stays in control.

It's not quite the same relationship as OM, but the similarity is this: I could decide to cut contact with this person, but she's a significant part of the lives of people I care about. And I still feel some value based obligation to treat her with as much respect as I can, without letting her walk all over me. You might be thinking "but she didn't have an affair with your spouse and break up your marriage" but- she did things that were also hurtful to my original family. Yet, learning to let go and forgive, ( not forget) and dimish the drama in this relationship has been worth working for, and if OM is in your children's lives it is worth it for you too, I think. It takes time- I know you don't feel that way now.

Morally- I think it's similar. She's not an honest or athentic person, she tells lies- but she has a sense of morality. She doesn't do the really bad things- and I don't think OM does too. Her friends think she is wonderful.

How to maintain a chill relationship is called "medium chill" on the family board and it's what I do. I maintain a cordial, non dramatic relationship with her. I don't share personal or sensitive information. We might discuss a movie or book. I don't get emotional or reactive to her.

So with OM- the goal is less drama, less emotion. Nobody expects you to be BFF's, but the energy that it takes to avoid him is drama too. Don't invest your emotions with him. If you are in his presence, be polite, talk about the weather, or the news, or just exchange something " hello how are you". It's not about you giving in, it's maintaining your cool.

[kells76]

I'm just lost how to create a truce other than to live in parallel with him.

This might be well-served as a spinoff on the Family Law board -- this is a great question that folks have been through before, or new members are actively dealing with. You're certainly not alone in wondering this.

It seems more likely that he's a slimy person rather than criminal. It sounds like you are chosing to withold what he wants until he changes his amoral behavior. That's fine, but if he's going to be around your kids, it's more about them than him or you...

Our kids learn more from our actions, what they see, than what we say. IMHO, your best way of demonstrating morality is to model it for your kids- and at your place it's your environment to control. I think kids can see the difference. If you can be cordial,  it will make things easier all around. Imagine all the times you all might be in the same place- kids' plays at school, sports events, graduations.

What Notwendy is describing is true. The way you interact with him, and talk about him, will tell your kids more about YOU than the content of the conversation tells them about him.

It takes a superhuman amount of composure to hear the kids speak positively about their stepdad, who used to be DH's best friend.

how would you (anyone) suggest I interact with a man who despite asking for the truth and honesty, he has failed at every single possible hurdle to do so, he is actually proactive in attempting to pervert other peoples reality.

Yes, it sounds like DH's xW and your xW are into the same person    Stepdad is either ignorant of his manipulation of the kids' reality or... ugh, doing it to "support" the kids' mom's delusions about DH being the "persecutor".

I want the kids to know that he's self-centered, narcissistic, enabling, and vindictive, only playing the part of "hero" to the kids because of how it serves himself... but the kids can't hear it and can't comprehend it. If I tried to teach the kids that being self-centered is immoral by pointing out his behavior to them, it would only entrench them in their defense of him and closed-mindedness to anything I tried to share with them -- no matter how important the content.

When they bring up how great he is, I have to work overtime to validate how they feel. "That sounds really fun to have minecraft weekends with Stepdad". "Your essay about how he's the most important person in your life shows me that he's meant a lot to you over the years" (true, this happened).

I think that the truce is created through neutrality and nonreactivity. Your kids will tell you about nice stuff OM has done for them. Make those conversations about your kids -- not about you, certainly not about OM. That will continue the foundation you've described, about having a really positive relationship with your girls. Continue to be the dad to whom they can say anything, and whom they can rely upon to "not make it all about himself". Validate, coach, address stuff they bring up about OM without you "having to" bring stuff up about him.

The truce is created when you consistently refuse invitations into the drama triangle. This may look like a "flexible parallel" where you don't actively seek out conversations about OM or interactions with him, yet when those things come up, you either "don't take the bait" with him (at school event: "the kids will be glad you're here... have a nice evening, I'm going to get some refreshments") or you step into "validating coach" role with the kids (at school event: "you sound excited that Mommy and OM are here; I'm happy things are going well for you").

The truce is about you being committed to being neutral and nonreactive. Not raising OM as topic of conversation, yet validating the kids if/when they bring him up. Not "fighting or fleeing" him at events, yet not "sticking around" to "reward" his monologues. The truce is about BIFF. He wants to rope you into his managed reality. BIFF is the slippery coating on your life and actions and words that lets you decline his invitations into his drama.

The truce is about exiting the drama triangle, validating your kids, and BIFF.

[formflier]

Enabler,
 
Perhaps a separate discussion about "fear of Ls" or what they may say is appropriate.

I would encourage you to interview several and try to find a good fit.

I've hired several over the years and also realized several were not a good fit.  (in fact, I need to send an email today asking for status update on a matter, also ask for more regular updates...otherwise..not a good fit and I may move on)

Ls may or may not advise you to act rationally, what you can be sure of is they will explain to you how your actions and decisions are "most likely" going to be interpreted by the courts.  There is so much "it depends" that goes on in the legal realm that you need to have someone you are completely comfortable about being open with.

This is what I want...

This is what I fear will happen

Etc etc.  

They can describe how hard it will be for you to accomplish what you want outside of the courts.

As others have said, they work for you.  

I've had many lawyers ask me to respond to their email advice with my direction, so they have "cover" if things go south...because I picked my own path.  

Anyway...I'd feel a lot better about this situation if you had a L on retainer.  It's one of those "you don't know what you don't know things."

Not sure if you are a fan of Don Rumsfeld (former naval aviator, secretary of defense ..etc etc).  I've actually met him.  Really neat guy.  Very thoughtful.  He is a big proponent of reducing your "known unknowns" and acknowledging that life is full of "unknown unknowns".  

Getting and L reduces the "known unknowns" (those look pretty big to me right now)

Read that a couple of times.  Given that you are "a thinker", perhaps you will find that interesting.

https://youtu.be/GiPe1OiKQuk

There are many longer form interviews out there where he goes into much greater depth.  He's also a guy that seems (to me anyway) the same in person as they appear on TV.  That's a rare thing.

Best,

FF

[empath]

I agree with FF that it might be worthwhile to explore the fear and distrust of L's in a separate thread.

In my world, both L's and T's are sometimes viewed with suspicion and fear because the thought is that they will push their agenda upon their clients.

I'm also concerned that you are currently describing your interactions with OM as manipulative and deceitful and that your children will shortly be in a "less protected" situation with only an unofficial agreement between their parents regarding PT.

[defogging]

I agree with empath and formflier regarding the fear of Ls discussion.

Your L would be working for you, and should be acting to advise you.  A good L won't force you down any path of action.  Keep in mind that if you feel your lawyer isn't working in your best interest you can always fire them and find another.  You are the client, they are serving you.

Someone mentioned above that they will advise you on how certain things would look in the eyes of the court, I found that to be very true.  My L consistently asked me what outcome I wanted, and then he would advise me whether or not that was likely to happen.  I heard a lot of "you want X to happen, but if a judge ruled they probably would rule Y or Z" or "if you want X to happen, we need to take this to a higher level and get psychologists involved".  His knowledge of likely outcomes helped me weigh decisions and decide how far to fight things, and think about whether or not it's worth paying him to fight that battle.  Another thing I heard a lot was "I can certainly fight for this, but it's going to cost another $5-$10k.  Is it worth it to you?"  And then he would leave the choice to me.

My biggest concern for you right now is that you don't have someone to run questions by.  We all know the unpredictable nature of PDs, things can change and get out of control quickly.  My lawyer still works for me but I don't pay anything unless he's actively doing something for me.  It's great peace of mind that I can call him up for an opinion.  It may cost me $75 per phone call every time my ex has an outburst, but he's there when I need him and I can better decide how to handle things.