Wife left me and I’m very confused. Part 2

[Adventurer006]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is located here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345366.0

Looking for some help.   At this point I am so confused and don’t even know what to think.   My wife isn’t diagnosed with bpd, but I feel like she meets a lot of traits, and feel like what she has been doing fits narcissistic abuse for the past 3 months.   I have gotten to the point now where I’m just completely lost.   I didn’t think she really wanted this, but now I’m just so confused.   She has gone through with moving into a condo, but had left tons of her stuff and my kids stuff at our house.   Like 3+ weeks ago she claimed she met with a lawyer and filed for divorce, but I haven’t been served any papers yet.   I have basically gone cold to her for about 2+ weeks now, only giving her brief replies to her texts, and not responding much to her attacks.   One day she will be trying to text me about our kids, or her being sick, or the other day she claimed to have a counseling appt ( I did not even ask anything further about it).   Then the next day she will be attacking me, calling me a terrible father or some other crazy attacks or accusations on me.   I thought going cold may make her think about things more, but it’s been unfruitful so far.   She hasn’t mentioned divorce or anything recently, but calls herself my ex wife.   I feel like I have no life.   I work 12 hour shifts, then on my off days I have my 3 kids, one being a year old.  I am getting burned out.   When I take a day off is when she’s attacking me calling me a bad father etc, all while my parents and I have them most of the week.   I am just so unbelievably confused to everything.   Nothing she says is based in reality to me,  I don’t see how this is a better life or situation for anyone, I don’t know what was so terrible about me or our relationship,  I don’t understand how she isn’t seeing this was a mistake yet.  I don’t know how to interpret anything she does or says.  She tells me she’s never been happier and felt more free,  yet she is texting me everyday, and attacking me half the time.   She is currently living a life she’ll never be able to sustain.  Sometimes it seems like she is enjoying hurting me.  I am just so lost as to what to think, what to do, etc.   Should I continue to grey rock, as when I was trying to talk to her, it didn’t get far and she just seemed in a better position to hurt me?    I ask myself why I would even want to continue a relationship with her after she’s said and done so many hurtful things to me, and seemed to enjoy it.  I wonder what kind of relationship we could even have with all the damage created by her burning bridges with my family, and bad mouthing me to all her family and friends.   Yet, I still find myself everyday praying for a call or text that she made a mistake and wants to work on things.  I don’t know if I’m in denial, if she really wants this, if she being manipulated by people, if it’s her that’s manipulating everyone.  If I believe everything she says then I am just a mean, miserable, gay, controlling, isolating, and ugly person that can be thrown away like yesterday’s news.   If I don’t believe what she says, then I am just lost and don’t know what to think of all this.   I am doing ok with taking care of myself. I don’t drink, or smoke.  I’ve been walking a lot, and wearing out my family talking about my thoughts with all of this.   I’m maintaining at work, and eating pretty well now.   I’m able to have a bit of a better time with friends, without having to talk about this at all times.   I’m still just hurting so bad though.    I want my family back together so bad.    I believe my only option is to continue to grey rock and hope she comes around approaches me about working things out.   Wondering if this is the right approach though?  I know before I know I was only twisting the knife by trying to talk to her about working things out.  I am also so fearful that she is or will be with another person.   I don’t think I can handle that.    I appreciate any help, advice, or encouragement.  

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Goosey]

I went through the same hell. Keep talking with your family. I noted your comment about “wearing them out”.  I felt like that also. My sister across the country was my main go-to. Of course it must have been hard for her because I flip flopped every second because of course we care deeply for our bpd partner.
  It’s head banging insanity your in right now. Mine did play out through years and then poof my wife just drifted into her new relationships and friends or whatever she is doing. Like she is just gone.  I have my daughter but she is an adult now. I have the dogs, the bills, the debt haha.
   So yes I feel for you and I know exactly what you are going through. All I can say is you will make it through, because you have to for the kids. You just have to be the rock.
  I would never have believed others have and are going through what I did, but here we are. Same pattern to a T. 
 

[Goosey]

Prepare yourself mentally for the things you noted you fear.
This is a illness and it does follow a pattern.
Have you read “stop walking on eggshells”? If not please get a copy and do it!  It was the defining moment when I realized what I was up against and really stopped taking it personally.

[WorksNeverDone]

Adventurer,
My heart goes out to you.  I wouldn't wish the hell that you are experiencing on anyone in history.  I've gone through a similar scenario, and I have several friends who have experienced similar stories.  Some have reconciled, some have divorced.  I think the previous response about engulfing really hit the nail on the head.  The common theme in my and my friends' experiences was that the wives were stating that they were "never happy" and had never really been their "true" selves.  That they had lost themselves in the relationship and blame their partners for "forcing" or "pressuring" them into changing who they were.  Then they reframe the entire relationship into one of abuse, manipulation and fear.  In my experience, while both parties had flaws, it was the choice of the pwBPD to pressure themselves into changing due to their fear of being abandoned.  Their partners had been largely unaware of the pressure/fear that person was living with and thought that everything was "fine."

My encouragement to you is to embrace the grieving process.  You are grieving the loss of someone who probably isn't coming back (even if she physically comes back, it likely won't be the "same person" who left) and you need to have processed your grief in order to analyze whether this new person is someone you want to have fully back in your life.  In my case, my wife did a lot of work (DBT, etc) and we have been able to make it work.  But she is certainly a different person than the one who blew up 10 years ago and told me that "the woman that I married is dead."

I would simply encourage you to surround yourself with detached observers who  know and love you (family, friends, counselor, this board) and can remind you of who you are.  They can help keep you grounded through the gaslighting that your wife is putting you through.  Use this time to ask yourself the question "if my wife physically comes home, but has decided that she is really a critical, angry, disrespectful person, do I want her to come home?"  Start to focus on the things that you need/want in a relationship.  In my experience with my BPDw, I easily slipped into feeling that I needed to change in order for my wife to be happy and come home.  Ultimately, our wives are the ones going through the self-realization and they are the ones changing.  You need to grieve your loss and begin to process whether you want this new person back in your life or if it would be better to, as lovingly as possible, uncouple and lead more separate lives.
I don't believe there is an easy way through this process.  It's essentially the same as grieving the death of someone that you fell in love with.

[Adventurer006]

Thank you for the replies.   I am yet to receive any divorce papers, but one day she will be texting me about the kids like I’m still her husband, then the next she will be ruthlessly attacking me.    This is the scariest thing I’ve ever gone through in my life.   She has done this in the past.  I few times in the first year we were dating, and then eight years ago when we were engaged and only had 1 child.  I did not think this would happen again once we were married and we had 8 good years, until about a year or two ago I started to notice familiar things to the last time she did this.  It would be like one day she would be too good, then another it’d be like she didn’t want anything to do with me.   8 years ago after about 3 months she just came out of it and was like back to the person I knew.   It has been 3 months now and she is still ruthlessly attacking me.   I believe she is out trying to attract attention on social media and country clubs etc.   I’m afraid to even talk to her at this point because I don’t know what I’m going to get.   I don’t answer her calls and just text her back.   I still just can’t believe how she completely turned on me.    I appreciate the support and helpful feedback.   I’m praying that she will snap out of this and want to talk about this before it’s too late.

[Brooklyn1974]

Sorry to hear what you are going through.  I am going through something similar.  Read up on the JADE and SET.  Her accusations are not based on what has happened but it's based on her fear.  For example my wife on Saturday told me (again) about how I was controlling.  She moved out two months ago and I would reply with 'How am I controlling?  I let you go and do whatever you wanted'.  This was not getting me anywhere and so I started reading up on BPD and engulfment.

I tried something different on Saturday with the knowledge I got.  When she said she felt controlled I then replied with 'I am sorry you felt that way and I can understand how someone would not want to feel that way.  I never intended for you to be suspicious of being controlled or have that feeling'.  I also told her I accepted her not wanting to be with me.  I had to let it go, fighting/chasing her emotionally wasn't getting me anywhere.

I actually saw her calm down and about 10 minutes later after she left, she called and told me she loved me.

Now the reply I gave her, if you read it carefully I never admitted to be controlling, I just replied to her fear, her emotions on being engulfed or controlled.  Since then she has not brought up that issue.

Remember their thinking is totally different than ours.  Sounds like she is push/pull with you like my wife is.  Too close they are afraid of engulfment, if we distance ourselves they are afraid of abandonment.  Unfortunately they won't 'snap out of it', my daughter actually asks me this quite a bit if mom is going to get better. 

Whether this behavior is temporary or permanent is anyone's guess and it's based on each person.  Though even temporary you will always have it in the back of your head that she is capable of this.  It's hard to feel secure and trust your significant other when this happens.

I highly urge you to read the lessons on here, read up on JADE and SET.  You don't want to abandon her but at least from my experience you have to tread very careful on when and how to approach the relationship conversation.  In my situation everything is still up in the air.  It's emotionally exhausting and it gets depressing.  You have to take care of yourself, you also have to ask yourself if you feel yourself being co-dependent on her.  Try not to romanticize the past, I tend to do that and all it does is upset me and wanting the past to come back.  Remember she didn't do this to hurt you, this is an illness. 

[Goosey]

Good insight Brooklyn.

[Adventurer006]

Yes I was trying to validate her feelings and it would be ok for maybe that call, and then hours to a day later she would be attacking me again.    It got extremely emotionally exhausting for me and I couldn’t handle it anymore.  I had to go low contact on her.  She just kept using things to threaten me.   She has recently started threatening me again.   I feel like I have tried every approach and just get rejected.  I assume that she talks to her family and it seems they undue an progress that I make.  I’ve been sort of “ grey rock” for about 2-3 weeks with her.   I felt like I was getting taken advantage of.    I definitely think about the past a lot.   Literally up until the day we left we were like best friends.    We have 3 kids and had a great time as a family.  My youngest is now 1 but was 9 months when she left.   I can’t even imagine how a mother can do this.   My baby would cry at night looking for her mom, and looks for her mom when I put her to bed.    It break my heart unbelievably.   My 5 year old is so confused, and I feel like my 11 year old son is turning against me and my parents.   She is manipulating him.   This is the most unbelievable hard thing I could imagine.  I feel like a torture camp couldn’t do this to someone.  It’s like something has just possessed my wife, and turned her against me and my family.  It’s like she has this deep hatred and just wants to punish us.   She is using the kids, neighbors, lord knows what else.   I just keep praying that she wakes up.  I don’t know what else to do, because it seems no matter what approach I take, it just ends in abuse.  She has become basically the polar opposite of what she was.   I have been trying to process this for 3 months, and I just can’t seem to wrap my head around any of this.   One day I’ll think I’m ok, and then the next I’m a mess.   Most days since I’ve gone grey rock I’m a mess, because I forced myself to let go and just hope she comes back to.   I cry everyday though.   I was so confident and stable.   I had a beautiful wife, that still had a great body after three kids,   We got along great most of the time.  We were on the same page with things.  Our kids were awesome.  My son was just like me,   Our daughters were amazing and like my wife.   I have a good stable job.  She had a good job with an amazing schedule.   My parents were usually available to watch the kid’s when we needed.   Her mom would watch the kids if we went to dinner or something occasionally.    I cannot fathom why she abandoned our life.   Even in the arguments leading up to this, I pleaded with her to communicate with me.  Communicate do this doesn’t happen.   Bam she just took off and completely changed.   I cannot believe I can’t get my wife back.     Is grey rock the wrong approach?   She just seemed to take advantage and toy with me when I tried validating her feelings. 

[Goosey]

  There is no rational explanation to it. I stopped trying.
 It’s an illness. A soul crushing excruciating experience.
 I find solace in believing they no not what they have done to others. God help her on her journeys. (And I ain’t religious but I mean that.) god help her find peace.
  I am starting  to find peace in acceptance I am not the Total  monster I have been treated and portrayed as.
  Long process. Be kind to yourself.

[once removed]

dont go cold on her. dont try to teach her lessons or to see her mistake. grey rock is passive aggressive.

the most "successful" thing you can do, and at the same time the hardest, is not emotionally fight this. let her walk her path, self soothe, sort this out. thats not something you can really play a role in, right now.

there is clearly a great deal of resentment on your wifes end. i imagine it completely rocks your world. feels horrible, and out of nowhere.

more than likely, it is not out of nowhere. what you are seeing is likely a culmination of things brewing up over time, that were not visible before, and now are visible in the extreme. that may be hard to process.

this is why trying to fight this is a losing battle, makes things worse. and on some level, it also makes you a target, and you dont want to be a target.

what is needed now is your centered self in peak form, at a time when i can imagine all you want to do is cry.

so, there are several things youre going to need in this process.

the first is a strong support system. build it up as much as possible. use this board. use loved ones, friends and family. lean on the kids...you all need each other, though dont do so in a way that brings them in the middle. consider professional support, as well. you may be experiencing depression (about 80% of members are), and finding your centered self is a near impossibility in that state. make your support a huge priority.

you do need controlled contact. you need, and this is very difficult, to find a balance. on some level, it will help if she is able to vent her resentment at you, within reason, without you fighting back. it will help, on some level, for you to listen, to be able to gleam where all of this is coming from. have reasonable limits. when it crosses those lines, it is best to disengage. you get to define what those reasonable limits are, but do be reasonable. for example, if i were in your situation, "youre the worst boyfriend/husband in the world" might be in bounds, but outright disrespect like "youre a mother  with small genitals" would be totally out of bounds.

this article talks about what it takes...have you had a chance to read it: https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

[Adventurer006]

Thank you for the reply.  I believe it came at a really great time.  I was able to get my wife to meet with me and talk.  She was initially saying she couldn’t see any hope.  We had one of the best conversations we have had since this all started.  This was virtually the first time I kind of felt like I was talking to her again, and she let down her wall a bit.   We talked about her seeing a psychologist.  I talked with her about some of the things I’ve learned and told her I feel a sort of defense mechanism may have been triggered.   I didn’t mention borderline or personality disorder to her, but just that I think all the stress may have triggered something.  She seemed open to things.   We then talked on the phone later and it went pretty well.    She mentioned talking about things some more.   I feel like things are headed in the right direction at this point.  Though I know things could change in an instant.   She seemed much more reasonable and tolerant.   I am glad she is open to seeing someone, but I don’t know how committed she will stay.   I tried to validating her feeling, but also had to tell her I saw things differently.   I am hopeful, but I know I need to be careful, which is difficult.   I really appreciate all of the feedback and support.

[Adventurer006]

Unfortunately I spoke too soon, and as I feared, things are not moving forward.  I felt we made progress, but then the next day, she got right back on it.  I am telling her that I understand she wasn’t happy and felt miserable, but I had no intentions for her to feel that way, and I wasn’t aware she felt that way.   It is so difficult, because in my reality, it wasn’t that way,  we got along.    Also she says I was mean and miserable.  It’s just so difficult, because it’s just not true.  I was the one always trying to cheer her up.   I feel like she is a breaking down a bit, but then it goes right back.   She still says all she can see is bad, like our whole relationship was an argument.  It’s like she knows it’s not true, but just can’t see it or something.   I’m just trying to work on myself and be strong for my kids as much as possible.   This is so difficult.   Can I take anything as indications things are headed in the right direction?  Are there any ways to tell if this is permanent.   She tells me she hasn’t talked to any other guys or anything.   I just find it hard to believe. 

[Adventurer006]

Update: can use some advice.  Have had a few talks and things are going much better then they were.   It doesn’t seem like she filed for divorce though she says she has.  I haven’t gotten any papers.  Sometimes she seems like she wants to work on things and then sometimes she says she doesn’t know.   She says there is so much damage done and doesn’t see how we can come back from this.  I tell her that it is a mess, but if we want it, we can fix it,  we just need to communicate, get the problems out there and fix them.   She is much better than she was, but thinks it was 75% me and 25% her.  Does not see how her family had a role in all of this.  Even though she tells me things they say, and it’s plain as day they are influencing all of this.   She says she is just starting to see things as not all bad, and wanting to fix things, but she is back and forth.   I’m wondering how I continue approaching this.   Do I continue to let her figure things out and kind of hang back?  Or do I continue to lead the way with talking about things and trying to sort this all out?   Should I take these things as good signs?     At this point she is just saying she was miserable and not going back to that life.   Says she is afraid to get back into things in case it doesn’t work out.   It is really hard for me, as things were not bad, and she wasn’t miserable.   Something happened and this all started a little over a year ago, during pregnancy, and I also think her family had a influence in all of this.     Is it possible for me to get her to see this?

[Goosey]

She may have filed for divorce.
It goes to the court first to be filed and then papers are drawn up to be sent at Plaintiff’s discretion.
It take a while.   Good news is a divorce is not final till it’s final.
The plaintiff can call it off at any point during the process.  Just money spent. Wish mine had a chance of reconciliation but seriously not in the cards.
I wish you the best and hope you find the path you and yours are searching for.
     

[once removed]

Is it possible for me to get her to see this?

i know it may seem counterintuitive, but the objective really should not be to get her to see this...to see things your way.

success, if possible, is largely going to depend more on seeing things her way; not necessarily agreeing with the way she sees them, but understanding how and why, and coming to terms with it. thats going to help you proceed more than anything you can say.

in order to do that, when you have these conversations, make listening your priority, and then reflect. state your perspective, when prompted/invited, but in an open minded and curious way. invite her to give her perspective on that. take it in, reflect, bring it back here.

why? because in order to come back from this, if possible, youre going to have to build trust, and thats an admittedly tall order. but the best way to do that is to catch her off guard by letting her feel heard.

there are good signs here. she is letting out, slowly, how she has felt; giving you clues. that means that there is a certain level of trust and vulnerability, and you need that. letting her feel heard is the best way to positively reinforce more of it. 

think about this on a basic psychology level. if im for something, and youre against something, im not going to make inroads persuading you by restating my position or telling you why yours is wrong. first i need to understand where youre coming from. in order to do that, i need to hear you out. when you feel heard, youre more likely to drop your guard and listen to me.

more over, realize you are in a long game here. when she tells you that shes "afraid to go into things in case it doesnt work out", hear what she is telling you. dont over respond to each overture from her, see them for what they are. dont expect too much too soon. give her the space to change her mind, and be cool about it. that will build trust as well.

[Adventurer006]

Thank you very much for the advice.  I have been applying it to the best of my abilities.  It has been really difficult.  One day will go well, then the next it all totally falls apart.  I feel like I am continuously taking a step forward, and then she brings us two back the next day.  I thought it was on a good track, but she went off the deep end again tonight, threatening to go after everything, all the month, etc.  She says she doesn’t want to talk to me anymore.  I tried figuring out where she is coming from and she finally ended it with “ it’s way way way deep, too much time, too much damage, scaring, it’s honestly a hate, deep, not sure how, idk”.    I really didn’t know what to do with that.  It isn’t the first time she has said something like that over this almost 4 months.   I asked why she won’t talk to someone that could help us figure this out.  I got no response as of yet.   I’m not even sure where to go from here.  It’s been so up and down.   I’m currently just playing it cool, following her lead on things.   Is that my best option.  Once removed, you have been so awesome with your advice,  I really appreciate it.  I think I have caught her off guard a few times and she hadn’t known how to respond. 

[once removed]

it is the best option.

when you dont know what to do with something, listen. our partners speak in over the top terms, but quite often, theres a grain of truth we can hone in on if we listen.

in any event, not arguing with your version is the best way to make her feel heard.

any update?

[Adventurer006]

Yes current situation is I’m still so confused.   We had some talks, but she wasn’t really putting any effort into seeming like she wanted it.  She would just say she doesn’t see hope,  the issues constantly change.  I will work to resolve one, but there is never any resolution, and/or she just comes up with another.   She has a major problem with my mom and blames her for everything sometimes,   other times it’s my fault and how I treated her.    There is definitely something to do with taking my parents side over hers that seems to be a big issue.  I told her several times that I don’t put my parents before her,  my goal would just be to keep the peace.  For some reason it has seemed for a while now, even before the separation she was trying to pit me against my parents.     Mean while I believe her mother has a lot to do with our problems, to the point I believe her mother has responded to some of my texts, because they didn’t sound like my wife, or even look like her texting style.  They sounded just like her mom.      Family has always been such a big issue in our relationship.  I’ve always wanted a independent life with her.  Planning our life and our activities,  concerned about our own goals.    She has always seemed very concerned about what her mom and sisters are doing all the time.  Sort of feel like they take priority over me.      Anyway, after feeling like I’m the only one putting effort into reconciling things, I broke down a bit.   I told her I don’t feel like she loves me, that our marriage was real,  told her our marriage was a big fake relationship for her to be able to do this.  I told her I’ve accepted that she wants a divorce and there is nothing I can do about it.    I told her that her mother ruined our marriage and that it was fine until she involved her and then everything fell apart.   We argued quite a bit the past few days.   Whenever I give in that I want to work out the marriage, she seems to take advantage and you with me, make threats and hurt me.    When I tell her I accept it’s over and this is what she wants, she seems less threatening.   She told me, she had deep resentment for me, and what’s me to feel what she feels, to change my heart   I told her she has deep resentment and hated towards me and it’s ridiculous that she’s punishing me.    I told her that she doesnt take any responsibility for anything that she does and just excuses it all.       I’m not sure if communication has totally broken down now at this point.   I haven’t heard anything from her for about a day.    This is just so difficult for me to go up and down.   To feel like I see glimpses of her and things could work out, to then getting disrespectful attacking messages from her a day later.     I can only take so much, and then I break down and fight back, and have to let her know how I really feel about what she’s done.     I am so confused about who she is.  If she’s a good person, if she just wants to hurt me, if she really loves me,  why she really did this,  if there is someone else.   It’s like she took the summer to do whatever she wanted,  vacation with family, hang out at the pool, go out for dinner and drinks, create instagram, get a condo, etc, and whatever else she’s been doing.   I’ve spent the whole summer shattered, trying to figure out what the heck happened to my life.     I can’t believe the whole summer has gone by and it feels like it’s been Groundhog Day for me.    I have been trying to be strong and find strength.  Asking for signs or guidance on what I should do.    This has just been so confusing.    I love her and I want her back.  But the trust is severely damaged, im afraid she would do this again, as She has left me a few time throughout our relationship.     When I try to take the lead on fixing this, I feel very exposed and she seems to take advantage.  I wish she would just see she made a mistake, and be more willing to fix things.   She doesn’t seem nearly as against me, or as unwilling to work on things as she had been.  She does seem to be coming around slowly.  I just hope I didn’t blow anything by playing tough myself and trying not be too desperate.   Unfortunately she makes when feel desperate, like I end up begging when I try to lead the way.  She gives a little, and then pulls back, and I find myself pleading with her to continue moving forward.   Currently I’m waiting for her move, hoping that she will make an effort, but I’m not sure if that’s right.  I feel so broken down and confused, I barely know what’s what anymore.  Any advice would be appreciated as always.   

Also I still haven’t received any divorce papers,  claims they have tried to serve me twice (I don’t know how she would know that).  Claims there is a court date set for about a week from now, yet I didn’t even get papers?   Doesn’t seem to add up. 

[Adventurer006]

Further update:   Initiated a talk with her when she dropped off the kids this morning.   She still seems willing to talk, and does seem to be getting better as far as her responses to me, and the stability of her mood.   Says she needs to figure out these thoughts that she has.   She says that she is seeking some mental help, but she has been saying this for months.  Tells me this has nothing to be with being with someone else, that she hates guys right now.  Why can’t I just be what she wants.   She says this was all about her feelings and the feelings she was having.    I said what about feelings for me?   I said don’t you care about me, or our marriage, like I’m just disposable.   She says she’s not thinking like that.    I don’t know what to believe, but I’m listening to her, it’s like she just had, and still, but less so has this like tunnel vision on herself, and these feelings she has of being like controlled, isolated, taken advantage of and not respected.     I believe I have a pretty firm grip on reality and these things weren’t happening.  I told her if she felt this way she could have just expressed these things and talked about it with me.   I’m still struggling with feeling desperate vs. wanting to work this out.    I feel like I know I need to just be patient, but it is so difficult.   

[DS2020]

Hi Adventurer, I just read this thread, and I feel for you. Not sure I have any great advice, other than to say I am in nearly the exact same scenario as yours. Yours is clearly tougher due to the age of your children, but everything you are experiencing are things I am experiencing right now (wife moved out 2 days ago) or experienced many times before in our 20 year marriage. The similarities are uncanny. If it is any solace, the crazy making behavior did improve as she got older. It was hard to see day to day or month to month, but when you look back with a wide lens, it definitely got better. In my case not necessarily because she actively sought treatment, but more so I think it was just the effect of age and time. Let me ask you, does your wife also suffer from anxiety, panic, obsessive fears, etc. At least in my case, my wife does and it is those fears and that panic that trigger these extreme BPD moments in many cases. At least that appears to be the obvious explanation in my case. Hang in there, you are not alone.

[Brooklyn1974]

I am right there with you, if you read my thread you can see where I am at with my wife.  I understand the feeling of being disrespected and discarded.  As I told my counselor yesterday I guess it's easy for them to discard us when they just keep devaluing us.  Always easiest to blame their problems/emotions on someone else.  What I am struggling with and perhaps you two is the feeling of self-worth.

You put so much time, love and energy into someone and they just turn their back on you.  You end up feeling used and replaceable.  I then have to remember that they are sick.  That being said, there's not much we can do to help them but follow the lessons and advice on this forum.  It's hard to balance your own feelings for them while continuing to keep getting punched in the gut.

As I tell my daughter, 'Mom is very confused in her head'.  She asks me when she will 'snap out of it' and I tell her it could be weeks, months, years or never.  Right now it probably feels like the more you try to hang on the deeper the rut is dug.  It makes it so hard to trust again as well since we know they are very capable of doing this again.

Guess that's why the advice on here is to put yourself number one priority which is hard for a lot of us to do since we are pretty much givers.  Givers in the sense that we helped them before so it has to work again, right?  Sadly I think at this point that's not going to work.  Setting limits to protect ourselves is now one of the most important things.  It's hard to see them self-destruct but we have to becareful we don't do that to ourselves as well.

[Adventurer006]

Let me ask you, does your wife also suffer from anxiety, panic, obsessive fears, etc. At least in my case, my wife does and it is those fears and that panic that trigger these extreme BPD moments in many cases. At least that appears to be the obvious explanation in my case. Hang in there, you are not alone.

Hi DS202, thanks for the support.   Yes my wife is exactly like that.  She has very bad anxiety and fears.   After we had a child, she developed an irrational fear of flying, even though she flew many times before,  then it was fear of leaving the kids.  She has always examined the kids for marks bruises etc and jumps right to leukemia if they have a few bruises.  She also had an increasing fear of cancer in herself after her dad passed a few years ago of cancer.  It had been getting worse and worse to the point she was driving me crazy talking about cancer everyday, having me feel for lumps etc.  Every pain or anything was cancer.    Before this all happened she had blood coming from her breast and ended up getting a procedure done.  She left in the midst of this and says that’s what sent her over the edge.   She hates my mom because she thought she didn’t care about her breast scare, because my mom was worried about Covid, because my wife had a fever at the appt and they gave my wife a covid test.    Then she says it was last straw with me, because she believes I sided with my mom over her, because I tried smoothing the situation out, telling her I know my mom cares about you, just probably didn’t fully think out what she said.   It is a mess,  but I believe I had been being “devalued” for quite some time before that.   We had been having increasing arguments, and it was usually centered around her family, or this new sort of selfishness she developed recently.   

I am hanging on because when things are good, I feel like we are soulmates.   I have read that these things can get better with age, and I feel like she was getting better up until recently.   Definitely seems as though something was triggered atleast a year or so ago and progressively got worse. 

[Adventurer006]

Hey Brooklyn1974, thanks for the support.   I’m sorry your still going through this as well.   Yes it has been really difficult maintain my self worth through this.  My family and friends have noticed the changes in me.  I lost about 30 plus pounds, friends say I’m not the same, parents say I lost my confidence.   I’m feeling better than I was though.  Starting to be able to joke again a bit, and have some fun.  Confidence and self image is coming back a bit.    I am right there with ya, this is such a hard thing to go through.   There were a few weeks recently where I felt like I was crying constantly,  and I’m not an emotional guy.  I really hope in the end things work out, our wives can take accountability, and they will look back and appreciate that we stuck with them through this.   

[DS2020]

Hey Adventurer,
Wow, it is scary how similar our situations are. Yes, I have had to feel every bump, look at every spot, stare at every real or imagined potential point of illness for both she and our son forever. She has not been able to even attend a doctor appointment, including a simple physical for my son ever, for fear that the doctor will find something and she won't be able to handle it. It is very clear that in my case, this recent rapid onset of BPD behaviors is an attempt to avoid emotionally dealing with the departure of my son for college. Sounds like similar emotional and stress induced family situations in your case as well. Let's share if we find any novel solutions! Good luck!

[Adventurer006]

Further update:   Received divorce papers yesterday evening.  Feeling pretty devastated, as I was hoping these were threats.  I asked if she wants to go through with this, and she continues to say I don’t know.   I asked her what the solution to these problems are, and she says I don’t see it, and she can’t see change.  I asked her what positive change in our relationship did she expect to see from any of her actions throughout this, and she had no response.  I told that you make an appt with a counselor if you want to work in issues, not a lawyer.    I feel like I’ve talked about her issues with her until I’m blue in the face.  I listen to her, I validate her, I tell her I’ll change,   I tell her I didn’t intend for her to feel the way she is saying.   Nothing seems to get resolved.   She continues to say she doesn’t know, and says she wanted to talk to me about things this afternoon in person.   She seems to want me to see that I’m controlling and isolating, atleast that was the last thing she said.   I asked her to describe what those words mean to her, and how they describe me, as they may mean something different to me.   That’s when she said she wanted to talk in person.   I am feeling like a deflated balloon, just completely drained at this point.   

[Brooklyn1974]

In my opinion don't ask her for examples of what she thinks is controlling behavior.  It's not the actions you took it is her 'fear' of being controlled.  When my wife would bring this up I would ask for examples and she would just get frustrated.  The last time I talked to her I approached it differently and she has not brought that up again.  Here is how it went:

W: You are controlling and I need my independence I can't do anything alone (which means our daughter was constantly with her)

Me: I can understand you feeling that way.  No one wants to feel controlled and everyone has that ability to be that way.  I would not like to feel controlled either.  Is there something I or we can do so you don't feel that way?

Notice that I never admitted to being controlling (which I don't believe I am, she goes anywhere and basically does anything she wishes), but I also validated her feelings of the "fear" of being controlled.  Notice I didn't use the word 'fear' in my response to her either.  Just because you accept her feelings about this doesn't mean you agree with them, just don't let her know that.

She just wants to be understood.  Let her talk, don't interrupt.  If you try to do any JADEing it will backfire on you.  Let us know how it goes.

[DS2020]

Adventurer,

I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sure it triggered a pretty intense string of emotions. I had the same even when I saw my wife had filed, though I have not yet received them. Not sure what state you are in, or what the laws are there, but in my counseling session this morning, my therapist explained that there are lots of delays built into the process, and hopefully those delays (in both our cases) will cause a "breakthrough" or snap back to some sort of reality. These are unchartered waters and I know there are other threads here in other sections that have lots of info. My therapist explained at least here mediation will be required and the whole issue of marriage counseling, therapy, etc. will have to come up. Particularly in your case with the ages of the kids, the courts want to ensure that all steps are taken to ensure the best interests of the kids. I'm talking way out of my league. I'm sure others with more experience can fill in. Hang in there.

[Adventurer006]

Well, I had to get a lawyer.  She was upset when she found out I got a lawyer? Like she left me with a choice.  She had been hot and cold on saying whether she wants to work this out.   Sometimes says she does, but says she feels we would need a counselor to help us.   Then she started attacking me saying she knew I was seeing a girl, and even picked a girl that she knows, and was convinced that I’ve been seeing her.    I have no idea what I’m dealing with here.  If this stuff is on purpose? If she had some serious mental issue going on?    I am so lost.   She then called me a work 2 days ago, and said she was going to my house to clean.   I got home and she cleaned the whole house, did laundry, changed my sheets.   I have no idea what to make up this stuff, because now she sent me a song, “love the way you lie” by Eminem.   I said that song is about a toxic relationship, and I don’t feel like ours was.    Past 2 days she has been taking a long time to respond to my text messages, and not giving me much of a response.     I have no idea what to make of things.  She says sometimes she wants to be with me, sometimes she doesn’t.     What am I dealing with here and how do I deal with it?    This has been so hard, and just continues to be so confusing.   

[once removed]

Adventurer,

the long and (very) short of it is she is trying to communicate in a way that is very hard to hear or to understand.

she is, above all, trying to get you to hear her. and it is inherently challenging to do so.

in order to do so, you would have to set aside your very real hurt at what she has said and done - to see past your hurt at what shes really telling you.

right now, you are at the psychological mercy of what she says, and twisting yourself in pretzels to defend yourself - and i understand why - because above all, you want to save the relationship.

this is from our article on what it takes to be in a relationship with someone with bpd traits:

Strength: It takes a great deal of strength and emotional stability to be in a BP relationship and not be emotionally injured by it.  A person in a weak emotional state, who feels wounded/abused, or depressed is likely to be consumed by the relationship, confused by the intense rages and idealization, and finding their self worth in decline.  If you chose this path, you've got to be very strong and very balanced.

Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

Accept the Role of "Emotional Caretaker": According to Kraft Goin MD (University of Southern California), "borderlines need a person who is a constant, continuing, empathic force in their lives; someone who can listen and handle being the target of intense rage and idealization while concurrently defining limits and boundaries with firmness and candor".  To be in this type of relationship, you must accept the role as emotional caretaker - consistently staying above it.

    Maintaining routine and structure
    Setting and maintain boundaries
    Being empathetic, building trust, even in difficult times
    Don’t tolerate abusive treatment, threats and ultimatums
    In crisis, stay calm, don’t get defensive, don't take it personally
    Don’t protect them from natural consequences of their actions - let them fail
    Self-Destructive acts/threats require action

Preserve Your Emotional Health: The intensity of emotional reactions, and the rage take a toll on even the strongest.  Since you cannot escape the natural human impulses to "recoil when raged" upon or "be overly protective" when idealized, it really important to have other outlets / escapes to keep yourself grounded. It's important not to become isolated. It's important to have a significant emotional support system for yourself (e.g., close friends) that goes beyond the relationship.

when i was in my relationship, there were, at least 100 times, that i told my ex that i was breaking up with her, not because i really ultimately meant it, or i would have followed through, but because i was trying to get her to see things from my perspective, to get her to "see the light". mind you, it is a poor coping mechanism, but it sounds, by all accounts, like that is what shes doing. on the Detaching board, we learn about the concept of "saying it louder it in order to be heard".

on some level, you are coping in the same way.

she complains, and you defend yourself and state your perspective, which is a natural, reflexive move. the problem is that she doesnt feel heard, and so she raises the stakes. and in turn, so do you.

if you were able to set your very real hurt aside, listen, and not react, it would likely go a very long way.

the accusation of you seeing a girl is just a distorted way of coping with what looks like a likely divorce, and a defensive posture as a result of you hiring a lawyer. sending you a song is a way of expressing regret, communicating a feeling, that she wanted you to hear and to understand from her perspective, not to argue with. when she tells you that she feels you put your parents first, and you say "i dont, im just a peacemaker", shes telling you that in a marriage, that feels to her like picking a side that isnt her.

all of these things - all of them - have a logic to them; a distorted and exaggerated one, one that you or i may not agree with, but one that is possible to understand, at the end of the day.

the stakes are pretty high at this point. youve received papers, youve hired a lawyer. shes likely to raise the stakes.

it would take a radical shift in mindset and approach at this point to save the relationship. are you prepared to do that? which way are you leaning?

[Adventurer006]

I still want to save my marriage.   It seems like she has been increasingly been more interested in working on the marriage.  She is stating that she wants to talk to someone about her thoughts and has made an appointment.   She is supposed to tell her lawyer that she wants to try this before proceeding anymore.    I’ve told her that I’m glad she is going in this direction and I will do what I can to support her.      Things seem to slowly be getting better to me.