Vacation Cancellation Threats, Divorce Threats, Older Kids

[Radcliff]

Hello friends,

This is a long post.  I do finally get around to asking questions in the last paragraph

Background:  I've been married to uBPDw for 23 years, with D12, D16, and D18.  D18 is returning to college in a few weeks.  D16 is about to start fall of senior year in high school, with high pressures she has placed on herself to get into a good college this fall, and D12 is about to start 7th grade.  Both D12 and D16 are in a vulnerable place, and need stable support.  Our marriage is falling apart, but it has been falling apart for 23 years, with continual breakup cycles.  My wife is more convincing each time, but yet has taken no action.  I am positive she wants to drive me to leave and take action so she can feel like the victim.  I am determined to stay in the house so that I can be near my kids and don't give up any parental rights, yet when we are on a downswing my wife can get quite abusive towards me, making it very difficult to even function at home.

Meanwhile, we recently learned that my mother, who lives across the country, has terminal lung cancer.  I am grieving, helping to coordinate her care a bit, thinking of how I need to complete my relationship with her, and trying to do right by her while still being there for my wife and kids.  Mom and five other extended family members are flying out here for a "last hurrah" memory-making beach vacation with my wife, daughters, and I in a couple of weeks.  My wife is gifted at travel logistics, and has been organizing everyone's plane travel with frequent flier miles, ticket purchases, etc.  She's also pretty stressed about the idea of being stuck in a beach house with my extended family for a week (this is a reasonable concern

My wife decided yesterday that she wants a divorce.  We had been good for a week since the last declaration.  The event that drove me to write this post is a conversation we just had.  I am working from home today, and she started talking about how she wanted me to move out, how she'd move my stuff out for me while I was away.  I said those were big topics that we didn't have time to cover in a few minutes, and I felt we needed help from someone like a mediator (she rejected this).  I had a work phone call I had to show up for, and asked that we defer the conversation.  Anytime I try to back away from a conversation, this is a trigger for her.  She grabbed her laptop and stormed out of the house, saying that she is going to cancel all of the plane tickets for everyone.  This would be catastrophic.  Even though she threatens to destroy every trip we ever plan and seldom goes through with it, I am a very literal person and it's hard for me to not freak out when she says she will.  We have now entered Alice's Wonderland, and I need to start worrying about hiding my keys, wallet, cell phone, work laptop, clothes, etc. and whether or not she'll let me sleep tonight.

Hmm... .I've calmed down a bit just writing this, and I expect the near term answer may be to let her calm down, pile on the validation, and see where we're at.  My near term priority is to make this vacation come off so that everyone feels good about it.  If my wife calms down tonight and we get at least a frosty truce, great.  If she says "Let the games begin" at about midnight, that's really, really not great and I'll lose a little bit more of my soul trying to get by.  That I'm functioning this way may be understandable, but it's a long term problem -- I have been going from one milestone to another trying to keep things stable for other people -- just get along with my wife until we pay my daughter's tuition she's threatening to not pay, just get along with my wife until we have that family vacation, just get along until D16 finishes junior year and gets those scary classes finished.  In the last few months, I've been determined to do more than just get along and to really do one final push to break through and forge a good marriage with my wife.  I've been hopeful a couple of times.  But while my wife now knows what BPD is and has revealed just a touch of vulnerability about it, 99% of the time she has her guard up and is absolutely unwilling and unable to take responsibility for her half of the relationship.   Plus she regularly tells me she regrets marrying me, I'm a loser, and it's all my fault, taking our relationship bank below zero.

So what's my question, you might ask?  I'm not sure.  I suppose I'd like to hear from anyone who has experienced drama/blackmail like this, get any advice on getting through two weeks leading up to vacation and the vacation itself, and if anyone faced the prospect of divorce with older kids who really need stability and would like their parents to just get along.  I know my kids sometimes know my wife is inappropriate, but this is the reality they know, so I'm also sure they don't know how crazy this is, and they also don't know the drama/abuse that goes on when they are asleep.  So I worry about how they will perceive my actions and what impact all of this will have on my ability to have a strong relationship with them.  It's already hard to make a quality connection with D16, at a pivotal time in her life where she thinks she knows everything and would be willing to fly solo, but isn't ready.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[formflier]

You have found the right place.  I am posting from my phone... .so this will be short.

I used to be like you.  Uncountable divorce threats.

Here is the plan... .for a couple weeks... .keep doing what you have been... .while you soak up knowledge here.  It is critical that when you change... .you don't cave in to threats.  Usually they are full of bluster.

Can you give us some he said she said from last time threats were used?

FF

[snowglobe]

Hello Formflier, it's safe to say that majority of us who stayed in long term relationship with BPD endured their share of the cancelled family events, important dates such as weddings, vacations have been cancelled or ruined and the list goes on and on. Although I completely understand the practicality of your choice to stay in the relationship, I often ask myself the same question: "can you ever, truly loose something that isn't yours to beggin with?." I'm currently going through the same cycle of detachment, my undiagnosed BPD husband has been irritated, angry and violent towards me in the last couple of weeks. From what I've learnt over 16 years together is that the next circle o lv my personal hell will be coming from him "1.we are two different people, 2. We have nothing in common. 3. I have nothing to say/nothing to talk to you about, 4. I want a divorce, 5. I don't love you anymore". And I, as a deeply traumatized codependent who is completely and utterly dependent with two children, aged 14 and 10 will be begging him to give me a chance to show that I love him and that he loves me. I will probably cry, beg, plead and then, once I come to accept him leaving me and him taking a chunk of my flesh, he will start to thraw and try to connect with me... .this is my reality. What's much worse is my eldest, highly successful athlete is slowly starting to exhibit symptoms of BPD. Today she told me that she has been cutting herself

[Radcliff]

Thanks for your comments, formflier and Snowglobe.  Formflier, I'm going to respond to your thoughts in a separate post a little later, when I can find a bit more time.

Snowglobe,

Have you looked for professional help for your daughter?  That development is very concerning.  Trust your gut and go after that with all the love and determination you can muster, and don't try to do it alone.  By the way you mentioned it, I can tell how concerned you are, but if you're simultaneously dealing with a BPD spouse you've got a big potential distraction/obstacle.  Perhaps you can post to the "Parenting" board on bpdfamily.com and get some support there from those who have dealt with similar situations?

My marriage's storm cycles sound similar to yours.  But I've realized that for us, so far, with a 23 year track record, that the thaws are very predictable.  No matter how horrible things were or how words were said that seem to make going back impossible, I found that the timing of the thaw was extremely regular so I knew how long I had to endure, and could anticipate it.  Realizing that has helped me to keep from getting so low.  I've been practicing, and now don't grovel if my crimes are fictional, only if I've legitimately screwed up. When we grovel, we reward them for that behavior.  Maybe you don't need to grovel so much, but just practice compassionate and steady behavior; would you consider trying this and see if the storm subsides on its own?  The first time that worked for me, it was a game changer.  It didn't solve all my problems, but knowing I could just wait it out and not get totally sucked in was so so good.  When you see openings in the storm (I know sometimes you just need to keep your head down), validate his feelings and if you hear a load of baloney, try to pick something out of it that is true and validate that.  Have you done some reading on BPD?  I found that reading a book like "Walking on Eggshells" was a huge help to me to understand the patterns -- it was astonishing to me that I wasn't stuck in a private crazy hell that nobody else had seen, and quite a relief.  I got a deeper understanding of what was making my wife behave as she did.  It helped me go from having zero control to sometimes be able to influence things for the better with the knowledge and techniques I learned.  Also, check out the reading on the right of this page.

I have spent many many years acting out of fear, particularly that I would be separated from my children.  It sounds like your fear is a mixture of the emotional (codependency) and the practical (financial dependency).  For me, the worst case scenario is that my wife follows through on her threat to file for divorce and her threat to lie to get a restraining order against me to get me out of the house and separate me from the kids.  What is your worst fear?  A little while back, I decided I needed to prepare for the worst case, hoping to make the possibility less terrifying.  My preparations were pretty extensive; your needs may be different.  I read the book, "Splitting," about divorcing people with BPD.  I searched and carefully selected a lawyer I trust.  I set aside some money in case I had to get an apartment and hire the lawyer.  I began keeping a journal of her abusive behavior towards me and the kids in case I had to defend myself or fight for custody.  I hid spare car keys, etc.  For you it might involve understanding how spousal and child support works in your state to provide for you, understanding restraining orders, etc.  I am still working on improving things, and just knowing what I would do to handle "worst case" has helped me feel stronger, more independent, and even calmer which interestingly makes me better able to handle staying.  But now I also feel like I have a choice to stay or go.  Yes, I'm in a pretty sticky situation, but I am not trapped.  Might such an approach be helpful to you?  The thing I reacted to in your post is that it sounded like you felt trapped with no choice.  You do have a choice, and you have a right to choose your own path

[snowglobe]

Have you looked for professional help for your daughter?  That development is very concerning.  Trust your gut and go after that with all the love and determination you can muster, and don't try to do it alone.  
path

@Radcliff Thank you for your advice, I've found a psychotherapist who has an experience working with BPD youth or someone who has a BPD parent. This is a very serious matter, I'm very familiar with mental health field, as I'm finishing another degree in psych. What is more alarming, according to her it's because I'm bad, I need to change everything about me (sounds just like my husband). To sum it up, even if she is developing BPD or already has it, I hope with therapy I will be able to help her find healthier coping strategies. She is just a little girl who is living in complete chaos and inpredictability.
[/quote]
My marriage's storm cycles sound similar to yours.  But I've realized that for us, so far, with a 23 year track record, that the thaws are very predictable.  No matter how horrible things were or how words were said that seem to make going back impossible, I found that the timing of the thaw was extremely regular so I knew how long I had to endure, and could anticipate it.  Realizing that has helped me to keep from getting so low.  I've been practicing, and now don't grovel if my crimes are fictional, only if I've legitimately screwed up. When we grovel, we reward them for that behavior.  Maybe you don't need to grovel so much, but just practice compassionate and steady behavior; would you consider trying this and see if the storm subsides on its own?  The first time that worked for me, it was a game changer.  It didn't solve all my problems, but knowing I could just wait it out and not get totally sucked in was so so good.  When you see openings in the storm (I know sometimes you just need to keep your head down), validate his feelings and if you hear a load of baloney, try to pick something out of it that is true and validate that.  Have you done some reading on BPD?  
[/quote]
I'm currently doing my honours in psych, aside from walking on the eggshells I've read rinds of research and clinical literature in BPD. There are several reasons as to why it's hard for me to implement what I'm cognitively prosessing. One, I've been with his since I was 17, he is 10 years older. The way he knows me, is by far the most intimate, the way he pushes my buttons is very selective and calculated. Second, he is very highly intelligent man, he doesn't recycle the same eggshells, if I can make a light out of such a terrible situation. I feel like I'm on a survival show most of the time trying to outsmart and outwit him. Validation and keeping my head down does little, he wants genuine suffering and complete break down. I don't allow myself to loathe or loose hope, so the next stage is always me coming out stronger and prepared, already calculating the next step. That is the moment he decides to come back. Always.


What is your worst fear?  
[/quote]
There are so many, where do I beggin? The most realistic scenario- he will pull the plug on the kids financially. My youngest is on a spectrum for ASD, he is getting very expensive therapy to recover. My eldest will now require help with her behaviour, in addition she is an accomplished athlete and requires extra help with tutors to stay on track academically. I'm a stay home mom, I also go to school part time. Even once I'm done my degree I will never, ever be able to provide financially for them the way he does. In addition, I know the pattern of his attachment. When he is in his worshipping stage, he is generous to an extreme. He spends on the object of his attention more then he has, leaving him in debt. Years and years of this observation led me to believe that my children will not get a penny out of dad once he is done with me... .that is my worst fear, I'm afraid that it would impact them putting them in further volnerable setuation. Another possible scenario is him fighting me for custody to make it bleed. Kids are single most important purpose in my life, one way or another he will try to get to me through them... .I need to finish school so I can at least get some job, meanwhile I'm at his mercy with no way of putting money aside for the rainy day. I will start documenting though, thank you for suggesting. I have several visas, I keep them as a contingency plan in case I will need to last a few month.

[pearlsw]

this is great!

"I've been practicing, and now don't grovel if my crimes are fictional, only if I've legitimately screwed up. When we grovel, we reward them for that behavior.  Maybe you don't need to grovel so much, but just practice compassionate and steady behavior; would you consider trying this and see if the storm subsides on its own?  The first time that worked for me, it was a game changer.  It didn't solve all my problems, but knowing I could just wait it out and not get totally sucked in was so so good. "

Radcliff, thanks for all your tips and insights!

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Radcliff, Yup, I've run the gamut of drama, threats, bullying, abuse, kids, divorce, etc.  If you have any particular questions, I am happy to share my thoughts and experiences.  In the meantime, I suggest you focus on yourself.  What is the right path for you?  What would you like to see happen?  What are your gut feelings?  I understand the stress you are under as a big family event approaches.

LuckyJim

[Radcliff]

Hello Snowglobe,

I'm glad to hear that things are in motion to help your daughter.  My heart feels heavy thinking of the burden you are carrying; I hope you find a path to peace and happiness.  It sounds like you are very well read on BPD and have a good background to understand what's going on, and I totally get that knowledge alone is not sufficient to get us out of our difficult situations.  I met my wife when we were 19, so she knows me inside out. Your two biggest fears appear to be financial support and a custody battle.  Have you thoroughly researched how those issues are dealt with where you live?  By the way, do you live in the United States?  I should qualify things by saying that's where I live and what I'm experienced with.    

[Radcliff]

Hello formflier and LuckyJim,

Thanks for your support.  Formflier, the nuclear threats seem to come out when she is struggling to control how things are going.  I will be trying to have a balanced conversation about what we each can do to improve the relationship, taking responsibility for everything I own, etc., and she will talk about how unhappy she is, how she regrets marrying me, I'm an awful person, and worse, claiming that 100% of our problems are due to me.  When I have my "A" game on, I can be quite skilled at deflecting and defusing but it's not always effective.   Walking away from a conversation is a massive trigger for her, and in fact is one of the things that has driven her to get physical.  In this instance, I had a work call coming up in 15 minutes and even though she was headed out the door on errands, she wanted to control how the conversation ended, so she hauled out the big guns and said she would sabotage a vacation with my dying mother (she had made all the plane reservations, and it would have been hugely expensive for me to redo plane flights for six people at the last minute)...

Lucky Jim,

I'm happy to hear from someone farther down the road than I.  I can think of many questions, but perhaps the first topic is how did your divorce unfold?  Did you initiate or did she?  How old were your kids?  If you made the decision how did you weigh things and determine that it was time to go?

[teapay]

A,  after 23 yrs of divorce threats do you believe her threats real (e.g. cancelling trip, moving your stuff out) or just saber rattling.  You know better than anyone else.

If you you think they are real, are you protecting yourself, especially with moving your stuff.  Don't forget the document what is going on if your concerned.  Keep a good relationship with your kids.  They are at ages were their input regarding you in their lives carry more weight and they get wise to what is going on.  They would be on board with you getting booted out the house?

[Radcliff]

Hello teapay, thanks for your support.

A,  after 23 yrs of divorce threats do you believe her threats real (e.g. cancelling trip, moving your stuff out) or just saber rattling.  You know better than anyone else.

Yes, you called this one right.  She had cooled off by the time she came back to the house.  Even though I knew in my head it was unlikely she would follow through, she can be very convincing, and I was feeling a little more vulnerable because this trip is such a big deal for my mother, so my wife achieved the intended effect.

If you you think they are real, are you protecting yourself, especially with moving your stuff.  Don't forget the document what is going on if your concerned.

Protecting the stuff is awkward.  I can, and have in the past, rented a storage bin, but the double life and expense are stressful.  For now, I'm just keeping close track of and hiding my work things and keys, wallet, cell phone.  Good recommendation on documentation, everything is completely documented.  

Keep a good relationship with your kids.  They are at ages were their input regarding you in their lives carry more weight and they get wise to what is going on.  They would be on board with you getting booted out the house?

Working on this.  D18 is a freshman in college.  D16 is going to be a senior, and is very independent, but I occasionally can connect with her by helping with school.  D12 I am very close to, and she is the one who would be the biggest issue in any custody situation.  Not sure what you mean with them being on board with me getting booted out of the house.  I know they see much of the craziness, but they think the situation is more balanced than it is, since they don't see the abuse that happens when they are in bed, and they are naturally inclined to normalize what's going on.  Because of that, if I filed for divorce, I'm not sure that they would understand completely why.  On the other hand, D16 and D12 have defended me on several occasions when my wife verbally attacked me in front of them.  D16 is at a naturally selfish stage and wants stability to finish high school.  I'm not sure how much time I'd get with her, but then again she's pretty busy anyway.  D12 I'm hoping would be on board with 50/50 custody.

[formflier]

 For now, I'm just keeping close track of and hiding my work things and keys, wallet, cell phone.  Good recommendation on documentation, everything is completely documented.  
 

Personally... .I use google docs (drive) for this.  There are other similar services.  

Make sure you have a really strong password.  

It's good to have paper copies but even better to have digital copies that can be accessed anywhere you can log into your account.  

Happy to discuss this more in depth, depending on where you are in the process of setting this up.

FF

[Radcliff]

Formflier,

Everything is electronic, nothing paper.  I use Evernote, which has a passcode, though that does mean that I have to keep my entire Evernote account secret, and I use it for a lot of benign family stuff.  I find it very helpful to have it on my phone so I can jot things down, though you never want someone to see you keeping a record.  Best if the existence of the record is a total secret -- never good to blurt it out when you are feeling powerless and need something to fight with -- I keep my mouth shut.  Google docs is interesting, and could be helpful, though I'm not sure how to keep it separate from an existing Google account my wife and I both use, especially since she has access to my phone and we share a home computer.

[teapay]

My wife knows I record and document things and that I will use them as leverage against her.  She doesnt always know what im doing.  While some folks may object to this I find it leaDs to much better behavior because accountability becomes involved. BPD hate the light of day being shown on them and their behavior and being held accountabe for it.  Lack of accountability is bad for people in general. Abusers can only abuse if it's is hidden or tolerated by others. BPD get away with all kinds of nonsense, although eventually it often catches up with them.

Would your kids be okay with your wife throwing you out of the house and not put up a big  protest?  If they wouldnt object, that is not good.  I'm not getting the sense that is the case with you, but it is part of quality of the relationship we have with our child and the quality of their characters.

[Radcliff]

Hi teapay,

I think my wife suspects I document, since she's mentioned it a couple of times, and seen a couple of pictures while snooping through my phone of a shirt she ripped off of me.  But I have not confirmed anything, and do not discuss it.  I think I've noticed some deterrent effect, as you described, but she has no idea how extensive the documentation is, which is also good.  I prefer to be low key about it, because it would distract from working on the relationship, which is a priority.  The documentation I have accumulated is powerful, and may never be used, but it is good to know it is there.  Several times she has threatened to have me removed from the house with a domestic violence restraining order, which really motivated me to be good about documentation.  No talk of that lately.  I think the kids would object to me being removed and are of strong character -- I do have good relationships with them -- but because of the pressures for a child to normalize what's going on, and because they are kids and shouldn't have to bear a burden for adult shenanigans, I'm prepared to mostly fend for myself.

[Radcliff]

Hello all,

Thank you again for all of your support!  I wanted to take a moment to add some good news to the board -- the vacation went well!  My wife did not cancel the plane reservations.  I knew this in my logical mind when I posted, but she is very effective at raising the stakes and throwing me off balance, sometimes exceeding the coping skills I've been honing.  So I appreciate you being there for me.  This was a very important vacation with my ailing mom, and I'm happy to say that everyone in my nuclear family and my FOO worked hard at it and was on their best behavior.  My wife started to crack just twice (once threatening to drive home and leave us all; I said how much we all wanted her with us but didn't give more of a reaction than that, and it blew over).  My wife successfully managed to live in a house for a week with us and our kids, plus several relatives from my FOO -- that's a lot of family for anyone to handle, BPD or not.  There are times when she is stellar, and this was one of them.  She followed this with a week long vacation with D18 (an exciting opportunity for them to bond).  She's about to come back exhausted, and possibly happy, though trip returns are a risky point for us and more often than not spark a quick flip to black, so I have my fingers crossed.

[Pedro]

Great job great job Radcliff,

So happy and pleased for you and your family well done.  Keep up the good work.

Pedro.

[formflier]

I was struck by the comment about "throwing you off balance".  That used to happen a lot in my r/s... .sometimes I'm pretty sure she still tries.

Somedays it is hard NOT to engage or ask or "fret" about this that or the other she is doing.

Slowly but surely I focus more on what I'm doing or what we as a couple have decided (there are a few things)... .

Then... .when BPDish stuff comes up... .I am more authentically quizzical... .puzzled... .astonished... .and I let her know that

Then... calmly wait for an explanation... .which rarely ever comes. 

The end result seems to be instead of "getting her fix" of an off balance hubby that is worried about her... .she gets a hubby that doesn't understand her behavior... .and in a friendly way asks "what's up".

She usually quickly deflects and doesn't want to talk about it... .and then entire thing is over very quickly. 

It is usually obvious she is very distressed after this... .  Perhaps I bring her a glass of water or some small gesture... .but, by and large,  I act as if I don't notice.

If she asked or expressed a desire to talk... .I most certainly would.  But I don't pry. 

My POV... .she is an adult, and if she needs to talk about something... .she will bring it up, without me pestering her.

FF

[5xFive]

Thank you for your post Radcliff.
We have a vacation scheduled in October to go visit h family. He has already said 3 or 4 times that we are not going. For a multitude of reasons. But we really need to go. His grandma is ill, and she has never met D9mo. She has only met S6 one time and I know in my heart that he will have huge regret if we don't take this trip. Selfishly, I fear that he will blame me, as we live in another state (per my request) which he hates. The weather regularly dysregulates him, so I hear 3-4 times a week how much he hates me for wanting to move here. I truly believe that if we do not take the children to visit his family, even if that is his decision, he will blame me for the rest of our lives should his grandma pass before we have another chance to go.
So I am working so hard on validating his feelings but not agreeing or disagreeing about canceling the trip. I'm so glad that you were able to see your family and that things went well!

[Radcliff]

Pedro -- Thank you!

formflier -- I think your comments are spot-on.  As I've gained experience and tools, particularly with my recent efforts through therapy, reading, and this board to develop a firm grip on a more reasonable reality her ability to knock me off balance is greatly diminished.  There have been many times when I've just played it deadpan as you described, and it worked.  Mrs. Hyde is a worthy opponent, so when I up my game, she ups hers in an effort to get the reaction she needs to see.  In this case she had raised the stakes where she knew I was most vulnerable so had a momentary advantage.  I wish I could spend my energy getting good at something different than this!

Monucka -- Thanks for the kind thoughts about my trip, and I hope yours goes well, too.  What you are trying to accomplish for your husband and his grandmother is important.  Yes, our pwBPD can trace blame back to us no matter what choices we make or they make, and perhaps he might blame you later if he doesn't see her, but that's not why you are doing it.  You are doing it out of love for your husband, despite the grief he gives you, and out of respect and caring for an ailing woman who should see her great grandchildren.  My wife's mother recently passed, and my wife worked very hard with her nephews and nieces to arrange a reunion between her mother and and two different sets of estranged grandchildren and great grandchildren.  It was a truly wonderful gift to her mother, as well as the entire family.  Good luck, and please post if you need support.  We are rooting for you!

[formflier]

There is still the issue of the threats.

I would let her know you will plan your own travel because "of the threats" that came between you.

Ask her if she has other options?

No accusations.

What do you think she would do?

FF

[Radcliff]

Hi formflier,

She made travel arrangements for a large number of people for a complicated trip because she is insanely good at it.  Frankly, I don't think the logistics would have been workable without her skill.  Of course, if I accept her help I accept a vulnerability.  An alternative would be to try to control everything, which would be inefficient and exhausting.  I'd prefer some relationship improvements that would make the threats less frequent.  It seems that the threats are part of her "language" to be heard since she lacks the ability to engage in more constructive ways.  But since she does not see herself as part of the problem, I'm not too optimistic about an improvement; however, I'm always hoping... .

[formflier]

As long as threats get her what she wants... .especially with no "consequences"... .they will not get better.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

But since she does not see herself as part of the problem, I'm not too optimistic about an improvement; however, I'm always hoping... .

Right, those w/BPD are reluctant to take responsibility for their actions, which is why the cycle continues.  The storms return, yet of course you keep hoping.  I'm a loyal person, too, yet came to see that maybe my loyalty was misplaced.

LJ