My behavior

[JNChell]

My behavior has been terrible towards S5’s mom. It’s all been text. The thing is, is that she has been leveraging him since the day he was born. I’m emotionally exhausted. The thought of losing my Son terrifies me. Maybe that’s an abandonment issue. It most likely is. I would never project that onto him. I care about his emotional well being.

I have called his mom a narcissist. Now I don’t see him. Big mistake on my part. She is a narcissist. An unfeeling person that uses other people. Her own Son.

I think that I should focus on my own bad behavior. I have called her out every which way from Sunday. Big mistake. What do I do? Lie? No. I know everything that happened. Extortion and lies. My anger has lead me. My resentment has called her out. You’ll never beat a narcissist. You’ll never be able to reason with one.

Men love their children. Narcissists don’t care.

[Enabler]

Hi JNChell,

What's the prize you're looking for here? Where would you like to get to?... See your son, have formalised visitation rites?

The thing is, it looks like you're getting caught up in the weeds of things that aren't helpful to your objective.

By the sounds of things you mainly or exclusively communicate via text message/electronically... not face to face or verbally? This is good because it means you can put things in place to increase the amount of time between receipt and RESPONSE... *****NOTE RESPONSE, NOT REACTION*****

I sense that currently you react with your emotional mind, the one that wants to correct narratives, reveal truths, hurt people back... your chimp! Responding with your rational 'eyes on the prize' rational mind means you will only include information that is helpful to your cause not unhelpful.

What physical cues can you identify that tell you that you are not in the right mind to send a message? Can you list them?

New-Life

[JNChell]

I simply want time with my Son. That’s my goal. An apology from mom would be nice, but I’ll never get that.

You’re right. I’m caught in the weeds. I’m mad. Yes, I emotionally react.

I’m always tense because I’m always thinking about it. Going deeper, I also always think about what she has done and taken.
I would like to let it all go and clear my mind of it. I just haven’t figured out how to do that.

I’m not quite understanding what you mean by the physical cues. I’m constantly tense. She is not to blame for my feelings. I miss my boy. That’s why I’m tense.

[Enabler]

JNChell,

When you receive a text from your ex what do you physically feel?

This is what I feel:

- A rush or zing like feeling in my feet which zooms up to my knees
- Eyes become sharpened but also hurt and become blurred, I get tunnel vision a little
- I feel my heart beat in almost all parts of my body
- My throat pushes up slightly
- Whole body tingle

As I understand it, and I'm no Dr but this is a combo of Adrenalin and Cortisone being released into my body... fight/flight reaction. My brain is subconsciously reacting to a perceived threat which rather than being a tiger coming out of the bushes is my STBeXW threatening or potentially threatening my world. Since it is not a tiger coming out the bushes I have no need to prime my lower legs to run, focus my eyes and be alert or speed up my heart to provide oxygen to my extremities in order for me to run... but we're still evolutionary humans and relatively speaking we're not long since been out the savanna. At this time of heightened anxiety, these perceived threats change the way we think and cause us to communicate from our primordial brain (chimp), one that has very limited bandwidth... fight the tiger, run from the tiger. Your typical reaction is to fight the tiger (your Ex).

Time is the only salve for avoiding using this primitive reaction mechanism... allowing the chemistry to fade away and other parts of your Human brain to step in, work out what would be better for you and RESPOND accordingly. So, the best way to identify to yourself it's time to pause is to be aware of the physical manifestations of your bodies subconscious reaction to threat. Once you do that you can force yourself to pause... and when I say pause I might mean not respond for 2-3 days. It might mean come here and ask people what is a healthy response to this. This is a life skill I wish I'd learnt 25 years ago.

New-Life

[JNChell]

Yeah. I feel extreme anxiety any time I have to interact with her. I’m waiting for my first heart attack.

Lately, I don’t have to interact with her because she’s withholding our Son. It’s a catch 22. I’m bound to a narcissist. Either way, she’s going to do what she does.

[Enabler]

JNChell,

Correct, in some senses she will do what she is going to do... and thus we have the choice, to make things worse or not make things worse. Each an every interaction is important. My guess, like me, you have a catalogue of interactions which have made things worse, and a small handful of interactions which have made things better-neutral. It's better to not interact or say nothing than say something that makes things worse. We've all been there, it's instinctive...

The key is to work against that instinct and to STOP, until that time passes, and that time will be less and less the more you train yourself to stop and have awareness of being triggered. Once you can stop you will have fewer interactions that add to drama and damage and more and more neutral to positive ones.

I have just had to have a triggering conversation. I said as little as possible and listened as much as possible. I chose my words very carefully and was very precise about what I said especially because I knew i was triggered... but needed to have the conversation with urgency.

Your body will tell you much much much quicker than your conscious thought will.

New-Life

[JNChell]

Thank you. I always listen to my mind when interacting with her. It always says speak your mind or fire back. I need to make sure that my body is calm and relaxed before I engage her. This makes sense.

[Goosey]

Hey JNChell i get the same way. I spend years with short burst phone calls that were just enough to get me furious or crying or suicidal in The five seconds they lasted before I was hung up on and then called back a million times.
Then texts. Which also can get insane way too fast.
Now she (and I) are blocked and just email.
Email is better.
Slows it down. No little “spinning wheel of wait”.
I feel for you. All I can say is I feel your frustration and pain. Maybe be careful. Your totally understandable frustration may be viewed  as anger and  used against you.
Here I am giving advice haha that’s sad.
I do have a saying in my head I stole from a dead president.
Paraphrased —- doing or saying nothing and looking like an idiot is better then responding and confirming it.
And of course I’m just saying in the heat of it I am capable of lashing out and pouring all my hurt into a burst that will be viewed dangerous in the right (for her) wrong (for me ) setting.

[JNChell]

Goosey, great presidential quote! Lol. I’m pretty much liable for my words. I can’t take them back. I think that it’s best that I’m truthful. I haven’t called her names or threatened her in any way. I’m not that dude. I have called her out on everything. Repeatedly. Minute details that are drawn out and explained from my POV. It’s a mistake, but I have a real hard time keeping my mouth shut towards her. This liar that turned my life upside down and is now taking my Son away? She just keeps taking. I don’t think that she’ll be satisfied until she takes my life. What else can a person take from a man after they’ve taken his Son? The only positive that I take from this is that her actions have justified to me what she is. The grim truth is that it won’t turn out well for our Son.

[Goosey]

I do hear you and honestly, I have my daughter (adult now) residing with me , so I can imagine you pain and frustration but can I really? 
  One other thing I learned from years of trying to converse or reason with my wife Is this.
  She doesn’t hear me. She is not listening.
  I mean that.
  I recall about a year ago in one of the rare actual in person encounters she told me to shut up and let her speak. I agreed only if I could speak when she was done. So she spoke or yelled of whatever and I did control myself and tried to be attentive and whenever how long she gave it a breather I asked. “Ok can I speak now?” And she said “go ahead but I’m not listening” as she walked away.
  I don’t recalled getting any more upset because it was a rare truth on her part. I have grasped that part of this all. I’m am all at fault and dismissed.  It’s hard to fathom but it’s the reality of it.
 So In my situation the back and forth war is over. And nobody won.
   Again I am so sorry you have given me good insight on posts. I wish I had advice for your situation that was sound or give you solace without sounding pandering.  It just sucks.

 

[JNChell]

You’re not pandering. You’re sharing. You’re right. They will not listen or have a meaningful conversation.

[Enabler]

Goosey, I’m pretty much liable for my words. I can’t take them back. I think that it’s best that I’m truthful.

JNChell,

Look at these two sentences VERY carefully...

You are liable for your words... let’s put you in court then... “I think it’s best that I’m truthful”.

Court is about outcomes. Would you expect your barrister to stand up and share truth that damaged your outcome? No...

I am not advocating for deceit, not at all, in fact I would actively discourage that. What I am advocating is that you share truth and share truth WHEN AND  in a way that is positive for your outcome.

Ask yourself, where has telling truth gotten me so far? Radical acceptance means accepting that you are somewhat powerless to instigate your ex’s genuine realisation that she has a problem. No amount of truth from you is going to get her there. Truth at this point is doing more harm than good.

This is why buying time allows you to make statements and formulate responses that produce OUTCOMES, rather than concerning yourself with TRUTH telling.

New-Life

[JNChell]

I see what you’re saying, but I don’t want to lie about anything. I don’t see how that will benefit S5. I completely understand what you’re saying, but I’m not a deceitful person and I don’t see the logic in what I’ve gotten myself into. Sure, it’s a court, but there is such a thing as lying by omission.

I guess I have a little time to think about this. I feel like I should also discuss this with my attorney. The step is an initial hearing. Hopefully I’ll be able to see my Son after that. Then, it’s hopefully mediation. If my words and negotiations count at all, it will be there. I really hope that we can avoid court.

[Goosey]

Well I just got goaded by future ex into blaring out I was shown her “tinder”account.
  I know better then to do that but oh well.
  It’s wasted energy.
 Just felt like a dumpster for all her crap so hit her with  a factual verifiable detail that was brought to my attention.
  I feel ok.
 Sure she will deflect and whatever but I’m defogging in all the wrong ways.
 Not what my lawyer would recommend but Whatever.
 Better then the Pine over what I thought we where.
 
 

[Enabler]

JNChell, like I said, I am not advocating lying. I definitely DO NOT think that deceit is a good way forward. However sometimes keep the truth, or what you believe to be the truth away from her ears. Tell your lawyer, tell the social worker, tell the cops... but communicating the truth or a alternate version of reality from the one your pwBPD holds is fraught with danger and can only be done at specific times without arousing her emotionally.

Less arousal is better.

I suppose what I am getting at is pick your battles and tell "truth" on the understanding that it will worsen your situation rather than better it. You cannot and will not 'truth' her into enlightenment.

In court, Truth to the max if it helps your cause. But that's what lawyers are for.

New-Life

[Enabler]

When I referred to 'court' above I was referring to a metaphorical court that you should pretend you are in every time you interact with your wife outside court, without legal counsel next to you.

[JNChell]

Ok. I see now. I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed. Thank you for correcting me. I’ll think on that. 

[JNChell]

Hey, Goosey.

Well I just got goaded by future ex into blaring out I was shown her “tinder”account.

How did that happen? You alright?

Just felt like a dumpster for all her crap so hit her with  a factual verifiable detail that was brought to my attention.

If I’m understanding this correctly, we have a lot in common. It’s hard to not say something. That goes a whole lot deeper.

Surely this stuff will eventually level out. The only solid advice that I’ve gotten is that it’s up to me to make that happen. That doesn’t sit well with me when I consider everything that went down. I’m just not able to swallow that pill yet.

[Enabler]

Guys, this is tough, it takes a lot of self control. It does get easier and easier and easier the more you practice it and the more you see the benefits of not allowing yourselves to join the proverbial party. This is a huge life skill.

Have you both read this article:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

New-LIfe

[JNChell]

I read it again. Thank you for the reminder. You know, I’ve been acting like a fool. Now that the legal documents are being slung around, I’m shutting up. I’m trying to weigh everything, and I mean everything that went down. I’m trying to really find where my anger comes from with her. I mean there’s parent stuff, but I want to explore this. If I was squared away as a confident and healthy person, it wouldn’t have gotten past the first date because of this one quote by her. “All of the women in my family choose bad men.” Instead of trying to politely exit that date, I rode in as a white knight. She told me what I would eventually become. After that, she would let me see little parts of conflicts that she was involved in. Just enough so that I could come to her rescue. I didn’t know all of the facts and didn’t question her. It was after things started to feel very weird that I would try to ask her to have a sit down after the kids went to bed. Nope. It’s easy to see how it escalated from there.

Being raged at after approaching my former SO with kindness and gentleness was something I wasn’t equipped for. C-PTSD. I didn’t know I had it at the time. I would shake and panic and beg her not to go. But she would take off. Ghost me for a few hours to a couple days. She had our Son. She knows about my PTSD and she knows that taking him away triggers it.

My parents are dead. They’re responsible for my C-PTSD. This one person that I share a child with has brought it to the surface after I thought and felt that I was ok. The beginning was wonderful. After our Son was born, things shifted very fast.

[Enabler]

I’m super sorry to hear you have lost your parents.

Have you discussed what happens with your parents with a professional? Often PTSD comes from bringing past unreaolved traumas back to the surface as if they were real in the heat and now. It would be great for you to resolve those things such that they don’t interrupt with your experiences now... they don’t belong here, that was then, this is now.

I often think about how my reactions to my wife were a function of feeling comparable sensations to when I was a kid a bullied. Not massively, but enough to leave a scar and enough to leave a legacy that fighting back worked and made it stop. Being with someone with BPD often feels like being bullied, yet we’re adults now and we have different ways of dealing with life, we have choices.

It’s important to put your current position in context. You’re not going to die, you will live to fight another day and you will feel the sun against your face tomorrow. There is no urgency to react now and your life is not at risk if you don’t respond to a text from ex, it doesn’t matter about correcting her narrative. Save that for your lawyer and the courts.

Have some confidence in yourself, you write well, with honesty and integrity, those things are important. Stay cool and work on taming your inner demons.

New-Life

[JNChell]

I’ve been through trauma therapy. Most likely going back. Never hurts to take the training wheels off for a while to see where I’m at. My parents are long gone. I appreciate the sentiment, but it isn’t necessary.

[Skip]

I do have a saying in my head I stole from a dead president.
Paraphrased —- doing or saying nothing and looking like an idiot is better then responding and confirming it.

Thanks Goosey!

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubts." ~ Abraham Lincoln

There are others, thousand of years old, that I think also helpful to remember...

“Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools speak because they have to say something.” ~ Plato

“A moment of silence in a moment of anger saves a thousand moments of regret.” ~  Ali Ibn Abu Talib

Part 1: My behavior has been terrible towards S5’s mom. It’s all been text.

Part 2: The thing is, is that she has been leveraging him since the day he was born. I’m emotionally exhausted. The thought of losing my Son terrifies me. Maybe that’s an abandonment issue. It most likely is. I would never project that onto him. I care about his emotional well being.

Part 3: I have called her out every which way from Sunday. Big mistake. What do I do? Lie? No. I know everything that happened. Extortion and lies. My anger has lead me. My resentment has called her out. You’ll never beat a narcissist. You’ll never be able to reason with one.

JNChell, breaking down what you said earlier, in short:

I have behaved badly, I lost it many times, but it was justified.~ JNChell

This is a hard thing to look admit, but you have and seeing it is the starting point to making things better. But you have to take your side of the behavior to heart - regardless of her trying to control you by controlling access to your son.

Bottom line is that courts want stability for children and when there is a great deal of conflict between the exes, they put the child in the primary care of one parent. She has certainly been told this.

The most constructive thing on your horizon right now is that your custody is going to be determined by family court (not her) and you will have a third party directly or indirectly have oversight in the future visitation.

Are you ready for that?

Is your house clean and conducive for a child rearing?
Do you have video or photos of time you have spent together? Do you have other parents that have seen you together and can vouch for the relationship? Have you done educational things with him? Have you bought clothes, paid for medicine, etc.
Do you know how to provide good food?
Have you taken a parenting class?
Are you clean and sober?
Are you paying child support?
How long has it been since the last "call out" email/text? When was the last time you had a written/documented and calm adult conversation with her?
Are you getting help for your anxiety, depression, anger?

Even if "less than you would like" for all of the above is  the answer, that's OK, doing inventory is important before deciding your priorities here.

You can start fixingn any of those things starting this week.

Do you want to do that? Do you need help from members on how to do thath?

[JNChell]

Skip

Is your house clean and conducive for a child rearing?
Do you have video or photos of time you have spent together? Do you have other parents that have seen you together and can vouch for the relationship? Have you done educational things with him? Have you bought clothes, paid for medicine, etc.
Do you know how to provide good food?
Have you taken a parenting class?
Are you clean and sober?
Are you paying child support?
How long has it been since the last "call out" email/text? When was the last time you had a written/documented and calm adult conversation with her?
Are you getting help for your anxiety, depression, anger?

The home is well kept, clean and organized.

I have a plethora of videos and photos. The last time he and I were together, he caught his first fish. It was a happy moment.

I do have some good folks that can vouch for seeing us together. All of these people love him and miss seeing him.

I do educational things with him. Counting, art work which is a great place to validate him, “adventure walks” where he can use his imagination which is a great way to get him to identify certain things like signs and what they mean. I teach safety to him a lot because he likes to be up on his stool to help me cook.

I have clothes for him here. Skip, it has been up and down with his mom that things like this just became a blur. Everything was constantly changing. I would send his clothes back laundered and neatly folded in his backpack. If I got anything back, they were soiled and smelled like ammonia when I would open it up.

Of course I feed him healthy food. The little guy has to eat his broccoli. He loves fruit, but the broccoli is a staple. I hope to grow that as things progress. He does get the occasional happy meal, but I’ve had him eating spinach as a salad that he enjoyed.  That is most likely stomped out now.

I’ve not taken any parenting classes. I don’t need them. I simply need to be allowed to be a parent.S5 and I have/had a great relationship. Where it’s allowable, I let him make decisions. We also negotiate and I let him win if it’s reasonable for his age. As well as logical.

I’ll drink a few beers with my friends on the weekend for a cookout and afterwards we sit around a fire. Nobody gets drunk.

I haven’t paid CS for quite a while. After the final split, she requested it. I paid it until she said that she no longer wanted it. She said that I was somehow controlling her by paying her CS. She got daycare assistance and refused any further checks. Now, she wants CS.

The last message I sent was 4 days ago.

I’m thinking that the break that I’ve taken from therapy has been long enough. Yeah, I need to get back in that arena. I will very soon.

[kells76]

The home is well kept, clean and organized.

 

I have a plethora of videos and photos. The last time he and I were together, he caught his first fish. It was a happy moment.

   awww, I bet that was sweet!

I do have some good folks that can vouch for seeing us together. All of these people love him and miss seeing him.

 

I do educational things with him. Counting, art work which is a great place to validate him, “adventure walks” where he can use his imagination which is a great way to get him to identify certain things like signs and what they mean. I teach safety to him a lot because he likes to be up on his stool to help me cook.

Do you have any kind of day planner or journal going? Jot down in it, if you haven't been already, stuff like "today I helped Son count to 100!" and "today Son told me he remembered he should never touch the stove burners, because they might be hot"

I have clothes for him here. Skip, it has been up and down with his mom that things like this just became a blur. Everything was constantly changing. I would send his clothes back laundered and neatly folded in his backpack. If I got anything back, they were soiled and smelled like ammonia when I would open it up.

  good job on the clothes. Again, into the journal: "Picked up Son and bag of clothes from Mom's house; all clothes in bag were dirty, so I washed on hot with bleach. Folded and sent back on Tuesday." Yeah, just have whatever he needs at your house, then you don't have to rely on her to take care of him. YOU can take care of him! And it eliminates a potential battle. Sure, sometimes the kids have two winter coats. It happens.

Of course I feed him healthy food. The little guy has to eat his broccoli. He loves fruit, but the broccoli is a staple. I hope to grow that as things progress. He does get the occasional happy meal, but I’ve had him eating spinach as a salad that he enjoyed.  That is most likely stomped out now.

Aaaaand into the journal. Good job on having at least one go-to vegetable. Flexibility is good, too; an occasional McD's trip shows you're not rigid.

I’ve not taken any parenting classes. I don’t need them. I simply need to be allowed to be a parent.S5 and I have/had a great relationship. Where it’s allowable, I let him make decisions. We also negotiate and I let him win if it’s reasonable for his age. As well as logical.

Consider it a tactical move rather than a reflection on your abilities. Looking down the road, you can say in court "Your Honor, I care enough about Son that I wanted to make sure I didn't have any blind spots as a parent. I chose to take XYZ Parenting Class last month to make sure I'm ahead of the game on my skills, taking them from an A to an A+, because that's what he needs." DH and I took a church-hosted (but nonreligious) parenting class (often these are free); it met 1 evening a week for 8 weeks, and they recorded attendance. Yeah, some was review ("permissive, authoritative, authoritarian parenting styles"). We did learn some new stuff as well, and got new resource (book/website) recommendations. The bigger deal was documented evidence that DH CARED enough to keep being a better and better parent. Mom was apparently "too busy".

I’ll drink a few beers with my friends on the weekend for a cookout and afterwards we sit around a fire. Nobody gets drunk.

Good to have eyes on that -- folks who can say "JNChell is an average to below average drinker, and I've never seen him drive drunk, and he doesn't drink more than 1 beer around Son".

I haven’t paid CS for quite a while. After the final split, she requested it. I paid it until she said that she no longer wanted it. She said that I was somehow controlling her by paying her CS. She got daycare assistance and refused any further checks. Now, she wants CS.

Do you have the "I don't want your stupid controlling CS" statement in an email or text or something?

...

I’m thinking that the break that I’ve taken from therapy has been long enough. Yeah, I need to get back in that arena. I will very soon.

  Yes, keep it up. Our T has been a big piece of our support through this slog.

[JNChell]

kells, I haven’t seen him since July 19. The initial hearing is December 2. His birthday. That will be 5 months since I’ve seen him. His mom is calling this boundaries. She using our boy. I’m fired up and sad at the same time.

I don’t have a journal or anything like that going on. I would save texts and emails. Things would improve so I deleted that stuff. I didn’t want it anymore. That happened 3 times. I did the same thing every time.

I would send him in pj’s and clothes until there was nearly nothing left here for him. It never got sent back. I would ask about it. No response.

He actually likes vegetables. Or at least he did. He would gobble them up with some ranch dip. Cucumbers, celery and carrots and a spinach salad with his dinner.

You know, I did have that statement about CS and control. I don’t now. Things would get better, and I’d delete all of the bad stuff. I didn’t want it. I didn’t want to read it. I don’t want to roll through life by saving things that will hurt another person. That’s not me. Apparently, I should have. It’s hard to tell what will happen in the future. I just want to see my boy. I’m his father and he’s my Son. I miss him.

[CoherentMoose]

Yes on this :
"I’ve not taken any parenting classes. I don’t need them... "
and
"Consider it a tactical move rather than a reflection on your abilities."

It's a chess move in the long game of gaining all of your parental rights.  And who knows, you may learn something valuable or obtain some critical resource that will serve you in a future challenge.   jdc

[JNChell]

What will I learn?

[I Am Redeemed]

What will I learn?

JNChell,

In my area there are parenting classes given for people going through a divorce, and also parenting classes offered through the local child abuse prevention center. They focus on the "nurturing parenting" curriculum and teach about expectations for children, appropriate age-related goals and behaviors, ways to discipline, children's emotions, communication, how children can be impacted by domestic abuse or other conflict between adults, etc.

I would see if there is a local child advocacy center in your area and if they offer some type of parenting classes for free. It doesn't mean you are a bad parent. It means you are a proactive parent trying to learn healthy strategies for meeting your child's needs.

Best case scenario, you learn some things to make you an even better parent. Worse case scenario, you find out that you've been knocking it out of the park inherently all along.

[JNChell]

I appreciate it, but I don’t need those classes. I know how to be a dad. I know how to reach my Son. His mom blocks everything. I’m not about to take “father” classes when I already know how to be a father.