Petition for discovery

[JNChell]

I think that you should deligate  that.

[JNChell]

She’s said nothing so far.

[JNChell]

I just miss my Son.

[JNChell]

You all know the best route. I don’t. I would like help.

[Turkish]

What has your attorney communicated so far? Take a look at the letter. Let's break this down. 

JNChell, can you answer this question? The suggestion to post a separate thread about the emotional hurt about not seeing your son is a good one. Can you do that so as not to confuse what you need to do?

Respectfully, it's time to Man and Dad up and discuss what you need to do in order to get your son back to you. You feel devastated, as I would if my pups were withheld from me (I can't imagine that pain), but you need to be with us in the moment (mindful of the goal) if we are to help you. Can you do that?

[JNChell]

Turkish, thank you for the slap in the face. Yes, I can and will do that. I got a response back from the paralegal today stating that they will attempt to reinstate visitation before the initial hearing. Now, I guess that I wait. I hope that S5’s mom sees reason. I’m committed to no contact until something starts to happen. Contact between his mom and I is fruitless and a bad idea for me.

I’ve known my attorney since junior high. She was good friends with my best friend’s sister so all of us were together on the weekends for as long as that lasted. According to my best friend’s sister, this attorney eats people up in court that withhold children. I don’t want S5’s mom to be attacked on the stand. I don’t want to be attacked either. I’m hoping that we can hash this thing out in mediation. However, I’ve not been quiet towards her when it comes to S5 and my limited involvement in his life due to her control. Bottom line, that’s why the situation is here. I don’t have any quit in me, especially when it comes to my boy. I will not shut up until it’s reasonable and that his exposure to both parents is balanced. At least in a way where I can support him and he knows that dad is there for him beyond visitation. He needs that in his life. The research is there. I hope to see him soon.

[Turkish]

 It's good that you received a response.

According to my best friend’s sister, this attorney eats people up in court that withhold children. I don’t want S5’s mom to be attacked on the stand. I don’t want to be attacked either.

The goal is to see your son again, with legal protection to ensure that your contact with him is stable and consistent. That is, what's best for your son. 

[mpacific]

Our discovery request from H's ex was 70+ pages, her appeal is now 56 pages. It's daunting but now in our 3rd year we place bets on # of pages each discovery will be. Sigh. funny but not funny.

answer what you can and talk to your lawyer about questionable ones. There are some that H's lawyer objected to and he didn't have to answer. Keep your mental game strong for the end goal what's best for your child.

[JNChell]

Do I have to answer everything directly, or can I refuse to answer some questions?

[mpacific]

You can certainly object to responding to items.  Your attorney might still have you answer them, they should know what's best. Not knowing the questions or nature of what you are wanting to object to it's hard to say if it will help or hinder you at this point.

[formflier]

Do I have to answer everything directly, or can I refuse to answer some questions?

This answer is for you and your attorney

You should answer and be prepared to discuss in detail EVERY QUESTION...to your attorney (NOT THEIRS).  Don't be surprised if your attorney wants to understand the backstory or your best guess about why they are asking certain things.

Let your attorney advise what to send to their side.

Best,

FF

[Skip]

Not knowing the questions or nature of what you are wanting to object to it's hard to say if it will help or hinder you at this point.

What is it that you are worried about disclosing?

This is what I sent her paralegal.

I would like a formal request be made to S5’smom that I have him at least every other weekend until mediation and all other pursuits are done and agreed upon.

It might be helpful and energizing to spend some time looking into what you can be   negotiating for. You want to see your son. She is offering every other weekend and a weekday for 4 hours and 4 weeks over the summer. It's a no brainer that she should give you that access while the case is proceeding if you lawyer pushes for it. Why not have you lawyer specifically ask for every other weekend and every Wednesday (for 4 hours) and to have 4 weeks this summer?

One problem with not making a concerted effort to get at least 40% now (every other weekend, one day a week, and 4 weeks in the summer) is that it may signal to the court (or the mediator) that you are OK with less. When the temporary orders are written, judges tend to freeze the status quo and if you are not seeing him, they may freeze that.

Has your lawyer made a written demand for the record for you to have visitation starting immediately?

[JNChell]

Skip, I have nothing to hide from the court, and I think visitation is being worked on.

[formflier]

What is it that you are worried about disclosing?
 

Hopefully we can help you sort through and organize this, so that you can present "the bad stuff" as well as the good stuff to YOUR attorney.

They need to know everything..how you see it...how it appears the Mom see's it.  From there they can work on the best possible outcome for you.

DO NOT LET YOUR ATTORNEY GET AMBUSHED with provable (or even unprovable) stuff against you that you know about/worry about now.

OK..kinda a funny story but it illustrates a point.  

Those that have followed me get that I've been in real estate (flipping, rentals..you name it I've likely done it) as a "sideline" (many times feels like the main thing) for years.  We had a painter for a number of years that did great work for us..but was a bit of a moron.

We also had a great real estate attorney that turned into a good friend.  So when our painter told us his wife was divorcing him and taking him to the cleaners...we wanted to help (remember..good painter but not smart).

So we leaned on our attorney to help him and so "he took the case".  Perhaps pro bono or perhaps we promised him steak dinners and lots of beer...I don't remember.

Attorney sits the painter down and learns the wife claims painter was cheating so she was leaving him.  I think "divorce for cause" was allowable in this state.

Attorney asks him why she would think that and he claimed he had no idea, that there was nothing out there to indicate he was...basically full denial..she's just crazy.

They go to a hearing or perhaps the final court thing (again details are fuzzy)..but she is under oath and attorney is questioning her.

Blah blah blah you can't prove it my client has never cheated on you.

her:  Oh..I can prove it easily

Attorney:  Ok..how

her:  It's on his facebook.  She whips out screenshots and I think they even logged in and...there it was
The painter was "engaged" to a girl that was not his wife..pictures everywhere.

Painter hangs his head..."oh...that.."

Attorney just asked where to sign the settlement.

Did I mention something about the painter not being smart...

Sigh...

You can't make this stuff up.  Don't be "that guy" that shows up in stories like this.

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

I plan on being transparent if it goes to court. I’m still waiting to have that conversation with my attorney.

[Skip]

I think visitation is being worked on.

JNChell, attorneys are busy and they tend to put things off to the last minute as many things go away (e.g., couples settle, or take a break in the suit). It's important that if you have a priority that you manage the attorney to take action.

You want to see your boy. Up until now that was a privilege biomom handed out at her pleasure. Your in family court now and that privilege is now up to the judge... even if you settle in mediation, the key factor will be what the judge would likely do if it went to court.

Have you seen a copy of a letter or a court filing made to the court demanding visitation? If not, it has not been done.

-- Does it you help to hear these things?

[JNChell]

I haven’t seen that letter. I suppose it helps. I understand that attorneys are busy. I keep that in mind. It’s very hard to not spend time with my Son. His pictures are on my walls and mantle. He’s in my phone. I have a memory box of his drawings and crafts. He is 20 minutes away, and I can’t see him. It’s been two and a half months now. I don’t feel well. The stress is taking its toll. She feels nothing but in control. She can’t even think about our Boy. My resentment towards her is high.

[Skip]

Would a zoom call with your attorney be helpful - to get the visitation request in process and to talk about what they need from you for discovery?

[formflier]

Would a zoom call with your attorney be helpful - to get the visitation request in process and to talk about what they need from you for discovery?

And also...how many attorneys and paralegals work in your attorneys office.

My fingers are crossed that your attorney has a paralegal or two that work exclusively for her.

If that is the case, it's very likely your attorney would like/prefer you to communicate directly to the paralegal, especially about admin details.

"Hey (paralegal name).  Can you confirm if the custody letter has been filed with court/sent to opposing counsel?  If so, please email me a copy."

A great paralegal makes the entire attorney experience much easier, since admin stuff can be handled at a much lower level.

Hey...I want to echo Skip's question.  Is our input helpful?  What parts do you find frustrating or hard to understand?

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

I don’t know guys. I sent an email to my attorney’s paralegal asking if anything can be done to enforce visitation before the initial hearing. Paralegal said that she forwarded it to my attorney and that they will see if they can make anything happen.

[JNChell]

The input is very helpful. I’m sorry if I don’t receive it in a diligent way. I’m not trying to make excuses, but I’m emotionally spent over not seeing my Son. I’m terrified of not ever seeing him again. He and I have a great relationship. At least we did. His mom thinks that he’s her property. That he’s part of her identity or existence. If she’s mad at me, she’ll use our boy to punish me. It’s been this way since he was born.

[JNChell]

Yes, I see everything that is being explained. I also agree with it. There are other parts, and I don’t want to make this a run-on post, but there are things that are very hard to keep to myself when it comes to her. Very upsetting things.

Boundaries: She is saying that boundaries need to be put in place before I can see my Son again. I’m adopted and she tracked down and contacted both of my bio parents after I told her that I wasn’t for that. She hacked into my online accounts to read about my activity. I caught her doing it. She refused to apologize. She took a vehicle that I owned (title). She broke up with me one day out of dozens. I told her that I wanted the vehicle in my driveway by the time I got home from work. She told me that I wouldn’t see my Son if I didn’t give her the vehicle. I signed the title over the very next day.

I should’ve kept the vehicle because here I am. A narcissist is withholding a child from the father. Gee, that’s not common.

She has said that I have to take her to court if I want to see our Son. She also wants me to pay her legal fees after telling me that if I want to see our Son, I have to take her to court.

My hate meter is on 12.

Emails, texts and that stuff. She has it all. When things got peaceful and reasonable between us, I erased that stuff 4 times. I really have nothing except my words. She saves everything. Christ, she saved a copy of an emergency custody order before our boy was even born. I saw it, but I stayed.

[Turkish]

I most things deleted can be recovered. You need to look into this. 

[Skip]

Has your attorney gotten your discovery to her?

Here's the deal. You can ask her to produce all her email and texts. Don't tell her you dumped yours. Delay your response (have your attorney ask for more time when you get close to the deadline). As long as she doesn't know you dumped your copies, she will probably supply everything she has so that she is not caught withholding. Remember, she will be under oath.

Lawyers do this all the time.

I’m terrified of not ever seeing him again.

Why? Her starting point is standard visitation. She hasn't filled to block your access or make it supervised. She can't withhold your son for non-payment of child support.

You can get through this, man, but you have to get it in gear.

Boundaries: She is saying that boundaries need to be put in place before I can see my Son again.

What is she looking for from you?

[JNChell]

Turkish & Skip. I’ve wondered about things being able to be recovered and I’ve also wondered about being able to subpoena her emails and texts. This has me feeling a bit better after reading your responses. I will send my paralegal an email to inquire about this. I could use some help with the wording of that message if anyone is willing.

Yes, she is pursuing state standards for visitation, but she also has a pattern of moving the goalposts when it suits her. I can see her doubling down if she starts to feel pressure as this process moves forward.

I think that our Son is the only thing that she has left to control me with. I could be wrong, but it sure feels that way. She knows full and well how I feel about him. I signed over a substantial piece of property to her over a simple threat of withholding. I showed my hand. I’ve also made the mistake of putting her on point and explaining to her that I know who she is and what she does. Again, I may be wrong but maybe fear of exposure is part of it as well.

I am in gear, Skip. This is just a new thing for me and I’m very uncomfortable with it all. I’m not dragging my feat, I’m doing what I can to get up to speed.

As far as asking for her discovery and a subpoena for her correspondence between she and I, will you please lay out how and when I should take these actions with my attorney? I really appreciate the support. I’d be lost and a mess without everyone’s help.

[formflier]

Is there anyway to prove (written/text) that she demanded the vehicle in exchange for visitation?

Make sure your attorney knows about this.

For some reason..that especially ticks me off. 

Sigh...I hope you don't hear any doubt or criticism for being mad at her.  You have every right to be.

My hope is that you can use the anger to guide/fuel your response

Hang in there man.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Turkish & Skip.
Yes, she is pursuing state standards for visitation, but she also has a pattern of moving the goalposts when it suits her. I can see her doubling down if she starts to feel pressure as this process moves forward.
 

This is where court if your friend.  Formulas are your friend.

Unless there is clear or compelling evidence for something other than the formula...that generally happens.

I would not say "subpoena" the emails, I would do "discovery".

You can say (have your attorney say) that your discovery is ready and you will hand it over when they provide theirs. 

That way you don't hand it over and then end up empty handed and trying to "compel" discovery.

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

Hey, ff. Thanks! The messages about the vehicle are likely buried in the correspondence that she has saved. This happened roughly 4-5 years ago. I know that the timeline isn’t in my favor, but I’m hoping to structure an argument that shows a pattern of withholding and using our boy as a control mechanism. If I get the correspondence that I know she has, I’ll have the pattern to present. It’s all there.

[JNChell]

Ok. I’d like to send an email to my attorney’s paralegal today. I just want to confirm everything here.

I will provide my discovery when S5’s mom does.

I want all of the correspondence between she and I.

There are other things such as financials and the like. How much is her boyfriend contributing to the standard of living? How much is she receiving from the state as the legal guardian of two of her second cousins? Why are they in therapy, but our Son hasn’t even been evaluated?

I want a list of all of S5’s care providers and who has been watching over him when mom isn’t able to.

I want a list of his health care providers.

I want all medical/dental records that are on file for him.

I want all correspondence between his mom and child psychologists that she has spoken to about having him evaluated, and why he has not yet been evaluated.

I want to know where he is attending school and who his teacher is.

I want to know about his living situation. Does he have his own bedroom? To the best of my knowledge, there are six people living in a three bedroom house.

I want to know if her daughter’s father is paying child support.

Are these appropriate measures? Should I add or delete to this list?

[GaGrl]

We cross-posted...see below.

JNChell, you are spending a lot of emotional energy n this, and you 're doing a lot of work with the para-legal.

It might be time to make an appointment for a face-to-face with your lawyer, even if it costs more than the para-legal. If you have a solid list of questions, you can get a lot done in an hour, and it may give you a sense of confidence that your case is moving forward and some peace of mind.

If you did that, what would your list of questions be? Can we work on that?