Terrible time with Live in GF...

[Depression = 72% of members]

B53...yes , you are right. Of course you are. It isn't even that she is offering to try to recover as a couple from the last few weeks. She has told me "right now" she has no interest in that. Maybe after she checks things out more deeply with the new man...then, no promises, but maybe her feelings might want to see if we can work thru our problems. That's insane. I need to simply shut this off and try to recover and lose all hope...hope is whats keeping me from working on self.

[cash05458]

B53...yes , you are right. Of course you are. It isn't even that she is offering to try to recover as a couple from the last few weeks. She has told me "right now" she has no interest in that. Maybe after she checks things out more deeply with the new man...then, no promises, but maybe her feelings might want to see if we can work thru our problems. That's insane. I need to simply shut this off and try to recover and lose all hope...hope is whats keeping me from working on self.

[cash05458]

B53, It almost seems like once they have found a new "vessel" they simply cant be reasoned with or stopped...as if all energy is now going there and the past we have had for last 6 years is meaningless. Every ounce is towards the "new" thing...and us? Our history and closeness?

[brighter future]

B53...yes, this really does feel like a death...I knew we had problems...but certainly not THIS...never ever saw it coming...it does feel like I am going thru her dying or something...feels as strange as if i found out she got in a car crash or something...almost trying to have to talk myself into being angry at her for this as I am just so overwhelmed...I mean, no true anger response I would normally feel when someone does something terrible and cruel to me...if that makes sense...

I feel the same way about my past relationship, Cash. Like you, I knew there were problems, but her discarding me came completely out of the blue. In prior weeks, she told me that I was the "man of her dreams", stated that she "would never give up on me" and asked me to never leave hear. The lack of closure in these relationships is very traumatic for us "Nons".  Some of these comments were made by her in front of her own children. I heard from my ex's family that both of her kids had a very tough time with our breakup, especially her 12 year old daughter that never even knew her biological father. This still breaks my heart to this day.  About a month after the breakup, I sent her daughter a text message to let her know how much I cared and that I didn't forget about her. My ex's son will come over to visit from time to time when he is visiting his grandparents next door.

My ex-g/f was also sexually abused by a family member of her father's from the age of 6 to 8. It seems like most pwBPD have been sexually abused.  Her father and sometimes her mother used and sold drugs out of the home when my ex and her siblings were little. They turned their lives around 25-30 years ago and are very successful people. Where they failed my ex as parents is the fact that they never got professional help for her.  These issues still haunt her to this day, and in most cases, she is not able to function on her own without the help of others. Her two children have suffered because of this and were both put into therapy a few months after our breakup. I pray that one day they can break the cycle.

I'm glad that you have been feeling a bit better over the past couple of days and are at peace with the fact that you did all you could to make your past relationship successful. I knew that I'd done everything in my power to support my my ex in our relationship, but for a while I was angry for her not reciprocating a good part of the time. What got me over that was accepting the fact that she's simply not capable of those things in relationships, no matter if it's a partner, her children, other family members, friends, and even co-workers. I don't believe she has the capacity to truly love, and I don't think she knows what true love is. It's sad. While I was trying so hard to please her, I neglected myself and other important things in my life. I'm working hard to turn that around and am trying to get out of the codependent mindset. Staying single for the time being and concentrating on myself and my child is the best course of action for me right now.

Keep it up with the positive thoughts. What really helps me out on difficult days is taking long hikes in the woods enjoying nature, doing fun things with my child,  or occupying my mind with fun projects here at home. The more I keep my mind occupied with those positive things, the less time I have to sit around and dwell on the past. As others have said, eating well and getting a good amount of sleep sure helps, too.

PS, please disregard all of the typos in my last post to you. I was multi-tasking when I drafted it and did not really proofread before I hit post.  

[cash05458]

B53...god, thank you for taking time to write that note.

I am sorry for all you have been thru. It sounds like it has been a long struggle but well worth it for you and that you are in a good place.

I need to begin that as you did.  Even this morning she called me to discuss things like getting her mail sent to her, factual things...and I found myself wanting to send her another note saying please reconsider and rethink...we have too much invested in one another to simply go off to some man you are virtual pen pals with so far...please, focus on us and give us a chance...and offering if she takes some time to reconsider and has THOSE feelings for me to please reach out to me.

It is taking all my strength today NOT to send that note. She knows and can feel of course deep down where I am. But to send again and offer yet again...would just put me backwards a few days.  SO I am trying to hold on and NOT do that.

God, I know I sound so confused.

[cash05458]

well, got a phone call from her last night...had to talk about pets and finances...then she goes into how this new guy in england and she are having video sex "numerous times" a day...she has never met a man like this who has opened her up in such ways...has not a single feeling of love for me left...and "he is her god"...this is a 60 year old woman...I have no idea what to make of any of it besides pure insanity...

[brighter future]

well, got a phone call from her last night...had to talk about pets and finances...then she goes into how this new guy in england and she are having video sex "numerous times" a day...she has never met a man like this who has opened her up in such ways...has not a single feeling of love for me left...and "he is her god"...this is a 60 year old woman...I have no idea what to make of any of it besides pure insanity...

I'm very sorry that you had to sit there and listen to her talk about her new man in this manner. How inconsiderate of her and what horrible boundaries she has. I know how much it hurt me hearing my ex g/f talk about her date with her rebound guy 2 weeks after our split, but luckily I didn't have to listen to graphic details like you did. What was your reaction when she said these things to you? Did you tell her that you didn't want to know these things? Personally, I wouldn't tolerate it. Only a person that is so miserable and empty inside would do something like that to another person.

I want to share something with you. It's a testimony (author unknown) from a woman with BPD. This testimony was posted by a member of this forum roughly 2-3 months ago. When I read this testimony, it gave me a better understanding about what goes through a pwBPD's mind. This particular sentence in her testimony is very striking and sounds like what your ex is doing by saying these awful, inappropriate things to you: "I will start a passive aggressive campaign to hurt you so you know what it feels like. I’ll do these things because I haven’t been able to learn how to love myself."

"As a woman who has BPD, interpersonal relationships have proven to be next to impossible for me. And while I do have positive characteristics that people are drawn to; a friendly disposition, killer hair and a pretty smile, I also have all the fear of abandonment issues, insecurity, low self esteem, etc that defines this nasty disorder. So. I am a good actress. I can appear strong, confident, and secure in who I am. I can make you laugh, listen to you talk about your hopes and dreams, tell you things I think you would want to hear. But honestly, I’m not doing these things for you. I’m doing them for me. Oh! How I don’t want to be alone! I so want you to love me. Pathetic, I know. But I’m not able to keep up the facade for more thanv6 months or so. And even if you are the nicest, kindest, most thoughtful man I’ve ever been with, it’s not going to matter because my insecurities will rear their ugly head and I won’t be able to trust you. You could be the best lover. You could say you love me 3 times a day, you could do all kinds of little things to show me that you love me, but I won’t believe you. Not only that, but I will begin to believe you are lying to me, or secretly making fun of me or chasing other women. I will start a passive aggressive campaign to hurt you so you know what it feels like. I’ll do these things because I haven’t been able to learn how to love myself. All the positive attributes I had previously portrayed vanish into thin air, and from start to finish (1–7 months) I manage to estrange yet another man from my life. I’ve been in therapy for years trying to adapt new ways of thinking. And even though I so long to be healthy, I have come to accept my limitations and stay out of romantic relationships. I’m so tired of hurting…myself and others. The cool thing I’ve gotten from therapy is recognizing that It’s not that I pick the wrong men, but mostly it’s that I have no business even attempting to have another relationship with a man until I can learn to live and forgive myself. By then, I probably won’t even want one. Lol."

[cash05458]

Brighter Future...thank you for sharing that with me and your words...this stuck out to me from the testimony most of all...exactly like it did to you:  "I will start a passive aggressive campaign to hurt.you so you know what it feels like."

gosh, that feels so real to me...I will mirror my pain upon you and you might soak it up so I don't feel alone...we can share at least that fully...

Via the call with me...I was sort of stunned into silence when she spoke about this. Said she is "performing" for him on  phone cam several times a day...to be honest, I didnt know folks even did this stuff...she then said he is her new master...so I guess its a dom sub thing...which is horrifying to hear...

While it was terrible to hear that...as I do still love her...something clicked inside..."this is way too f+++ked up and dangerous...this is not right in any sense..."

and while it made me slightly jealous, that wasnt it really...more it made me feel  that she is deep in the throes of something terrible that I want no part of any longer...I can't help this person...give up...this is too crazy...

I still want her to be ok...but this is so far beyond me helping her or sticking with her to guide her...

So she is claiming she has ordered an expedited passport to fly in feb to england to be his submissive...

in an odd way it makes it easier for me if you can understand that BF? It is so far out there...it helps me...does that make any sense?

[cash05458]

oh , she also said she is smoking pot constantly...I mean I don't but have no problems folks do. But I dont feel she is doing it for right reason...but that isn't my call...even that she turned into something bad about me/us..."I am smoking pot all the time now...I used to before we got together...no, you never discouraged...but you don't smoke. I hate you that I stopped...it has opened me up again to life and to my new found love."

She actually said it clearly as well" I no longer love you at all...I only love him...he is my man, you are not."


yeah, that is pretty clear...there isn't much more to say or justify to myself at that point...

[B53]

Cash,
I understand quite a bit about the nature of the disorder and their need to keep jumping from one person to the next, but I really don’t understand why she is rubbing this new guy in your face. I guess it’s because empathy is something BPD’s can’t feel.
This has got to be so hard for you.
B53

[cash05458]

B53...thanks...yes, I have no idea either...I guess to humiliate me...seems like she is into humiliation now as well...so maybe projecting it onwards? Actually, maybe it just from the whole cruel thing going on...I dont even know why she would tell me.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey Cash-

I am terribly sorry for the pain and confusion you’re experiencing from your recent breakup and the ongoing behavior of your former GF.

One thing I would like to point out is that pwBPD (people with BPD) oftentimes DO have empathy.  It’s generally those with strong narcissistic traits who have little to no empathy.  Your ex may “enjoy” some co-morbidity, as some disordered folks do.  Mine did and had ZERO empathy.

In looking at yourself, and how deeply this is affecting you and hurting you on a day to day basis, and it IS... how could it NOT?  Can you step back for a moment, give yourself a pause and ask how to perhaps “reduce” her DIRECT IMPACT in you?

When a partner hurts us THIS BADLY, THIS DEEPLY... we don’t need to ALLOW them to constantly trample all over lines of human decency.  And that includes providing us with details of what they’re doing to or with their new “love” interest.

So maybe now is the time for YOU to erect a HARD boundary around that behavior.  You are ALLOWED to say no.  You can be polite and exit any conversation you wish... at any time.

Cash - your BOUNDARIES represent your values.  Period.  And you have every right to stand firm on your values.

She has already violated what I’d consider several boundaries/ shared values of a relationship.  She cleaned out the house without telling you (when she was coming to get “a few things”).  She drained the joint account of funds.  She took your sole mode of transport.  She is constantly belittling you with what she says she does and does not feel for you.  And now this boorish behavior describing what she’s doing on camera.  Most teenaged girls would NOT behave in that manner...

So what do you think?  Is it time to erect some boundaries?  To take care of yourself?

I’ve more thoughts on what will take place when reality hits HER in the face.  What are YOUR thoughts, after witnessing / living this behavior?

Again, I am so very sorry Cash.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[B53]

Cash, G,
I totally agree. I was thinking the same thing but didn’t know how to say it in a gentle way. You need some time for yourself. As much as you want that connection, this is tearing you apart. I know that you are financially strapped but could you check to see if there free counseling or a support group available near you?

G- I thought lack of empathy was part of BPD. This is new to me. Thanks

Hang in there cash.
B53

[cash05458]

Gemsforeyes...ok, thank you for that note...actually, thank you everyone here for your kindness.

I dont know why but reading what you wrote made me begin crying...I know I need to erect real and strong boundaries...I feel so stripped down...so low...so...nothing... to be frank and honest...this has been the most awful two weeks of my life...it happened or she took off...two weeks ago tonight...this has been so horrible...just mind  and soul warping. It has as if she has become this complete opposite of the woman I have lived with for 6 years...

You ask my feelings about what she told me...shocked of course...more of a I cant believe I am hearing this...but deeper, since feeling it over today...without harsh judgements, I feel as if this person is in an area I cannot touch...she is so far other from me/us now...this is untouchable for me and here I am still hoping she will "see the light"  about us and see us as important. I know that is so confused to those reading all these things. There is some jealousy there...she calls him "her new man, her new master"...but mostly this is so alien to me and she is so far far gone. I dont even know how to process this.

and then in same conversation she said..."I want nothing of us...he is my man...I love him...but I do want you to get thru all this and find strength again...I love you like a brother...I want you to be ok"

my female cousin told me this on phone: "she is not contacting you because she wants to see you ok...no matter what she is saying...she is doing this to assuage her own guilt...it's still entirely about HER..."

Here I was hoping maybe she would want to work on us...see the light again...maybe help her find a therapist, see one myself...and rather it's "I am going to england to serve my Master as his submissive"... literally, a guy she started talking to three weeks ago on facebook. and then adding "I hope we can be friends because I really do care about your well being."

I am curious tho what your feelings are about when she comes down and reality hits? Would you express those thoughts to me please Gem?

thank you again for your note...and by the time I finished writing this I at least stopped the crying Gem.

[cash05458]

Gem and B53...
I also feel shame that I am not holding to my boundaries...and that supports this worthless feeling. We hadn't talked or wrote emails for 4 days... I was able to do that. Then a email about can we talk about pets (she has her cats still here) and nothing emotional? Yes, I say...

and then all that stuff comes out as we wander in...and then emails back and forth all day...and I am hating myself for being so weak and still hoping even tho I know this...even asking questions by mail once that thing, that wound opened back up and was bleeding... not that I had healed, but you know how I mean...

and then spiraling...even found myself writing her a letter about the dangers and emptiness of that Dom/Sub stuff and to take care...and found myself saying wtf am i doing and not sending...like I am going to be the one to protect her in her new thing? My god...

My Mother told me once she was told by a therapist she was BDP...I believe that actually given my childhood...I was almost treated like a thing she would show love to and then take it away for no reason...it was never constant and steady...it was intermittent and was decided by her moods...and then as an adult I know I have this caretaker, hero attitude...I will be the ONE who can help...that will verify me and she will see I am the man for her...its a terrible dynamic...I look back thru so many of my relationships...many different women but all needed help in some way emotionally and I played out that hero aspect...seemingly very different women from other countries and cultures even...on the surface so different...but all the time that same bad script playing out beneath and fueling it...it's so pathetic on my part.

[B53]

Cash,
Believe it or not, crying is a good thing!
Look up CODA, it’s a codependency support group. I went for quite a few years and got my life back. That is why I left my BP relationship, I was heading down that road again and I have worked too hard on myself to let that happen. It’s time for you to be your own hero.
B53

[cash05458]

Thank you for those kind words B53...I will look into that...also would like to find a therapist if I can...I have done therapy before and it certainly helped...

[cash05458]

B53...about our earlier talk about the stages of grief and a death...looking at these things I know I am certainly in the first stage, of Denial.

This doesn't even feel real to me...the whole situation...so much and so quickly...at times I catch myself and it swings in: my god, this is really happening...meanwhile it's all submerged in the feeling of being overwhelmed...but yes, certainly I am in Denial.

[cash05458]

One other detail in this...I mentioned before that I am friends with an older (in their 70's) couple next door...they have been very sweet. The older woman mentioned to me yesterday as I stopped to say hi while walking my wonderful dog..."you know, I think she still cares about you...I am not supposed to say, but she writes me on facebook every other day to check in on you...wants to know if I saw you and if you are ok..."

I said to her..."no offense and you have done nothing wrong at all...but I would like to ask you not to respond...or I cant ask you who not to talk to on facebook...but please dont give her any info on me ok? say something like "haven't spoken to him...but we saw his tracks in the snow...or something that doesn't give any updates...I dont feel she has a right..." She agreed...


The very idea that these two weeks she was being given little updates...this older woman meant well of course...by my GF manipulating her into doing that...their windows next door practically look into mine...and my GF getting messages back when she writes to ask "how does he seem?...I am just concerned for his well being..." after she pulled all this terrible stuff...she asked this well meaning, caring neighbor..."please keep an eye out on him...I am so concerned and care so much."

Not sure why that bothered me so much...but something so manipulative and deceptive...at least in my thoughts...

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Cash-

Your gut is spot on.  The reason you feel that your ex contacting your elderly neighbor for updates about your “well-being” is manipulative is... because it IS manipulative.  Extremely manipulative.  AND that action has a name -  “Triangulation”.  You can simply google the term.

It sounds as if you approached your neighbor in the kindest way possible.  And sadly, if you have in fact been sharing details of what has transpired in your relationship with this couple, you may now wish to choose a more neutral and supportive friend to share those details with... people with whom your ex is NOT friends.  You really need people of your own.

Sharing a drink or a coffee and friendly time with these folks is fine, and positive news, but feelings of sadness... probably not a good idea for awhile.  Sorry.

I don’t like saying this... but in light of her behaviors, Your ex is not looking out for your interests.  She is trying to butter up her OWN image in the eyes of these neighbors... just in case she “chooses” to return to you.  But that “choice” will NOT be hers (only she does not know that right now, does she?).

Cash, There is something I noticed in your first post I believe, yet I neglected to point out in my first response to you.  I really admired the strength you showed when your now ex wanted to return as she was “exploring” this other thing... insisting that she be permitted to come home and FaceTime with this person while living in your home.

You may not realize this, but you DID value yourself... you DID establish a HARD boundary on that when you said “no”.  Many people would have allowed a BPD partner back home, thinking the minute the partner walked back in they’d be able to “convince” the partner to “love me!”. 

My friend, Although the pain in this is truly deep, it is vital for you to understand that you DO have an admirable level of self-respect, despite the things you went through growing up.  And despite what you’ve endured through 6 years living with a pwBPD.  SOMEWHERE in you... you knew there was something that could NOT be trusted about this thing.  What do you think that was?  I wonder...

I know you asked me to provide what I believe her reactions will be once reality hits.  I’ve got to run right now, and I’ll address that later this evening.

There are some nice sayings I’ve picked up over the 3.5 years I’ve been on these boards.  One is “Life is lived forward, understood backward”. 

And my personal motto is “you cannot love someone to wellness”.   I am now 63 years old.  I finally DO know what I’m saying.  And what I’m feeling.

Warmly,
Gems

[cash05458]

Gem, deep deep thanks for those words and taking the time to even care about the situation this person (me) you have never met...

Yes, via the couple, they do know a few things...I was at their place the night she showed up with the uhaul...so did talk some of my confusions. I will stop that. I know the woman meant well and was manipulated. They certainly think something is very wrong about my ex...but of course that isn't the point. I will keep clear boundaries with them. I also don't want for them to feel involved in any way. I value them as neighbors that I really like. I don't want to hurt that. These are good folk.

well, you asked about me being able to draw that line. I think she prolly would have returned home if I had agreed. She seems crazy in love with this new facebook friend. Not being able to continue was the motivation for the move, for the  hard  and sudden split. I didn't really ever imagine it going that way to be honest and it's hurt, badly as you understand.

I just knew I could not...that I felt humiliation about her and him anyhow...but to let and agree to it in our own home...would be so MUCH more humiliating...to me, it would have been the ultimate humiliation and if I simply agreed, I was afraid of being lost for good. If I was so weak that I allowed that...well, I just be agreeing literally to abuse me...and I feel abused enough myself over all this...I can't join in that abuse towards my self. I thought as well she needed to hear a firm NO, that isnt going to go on.

Of course I didn't really know it would lead to all this...but still, I would not let her back in while doing this stuff with him. even after all this pain and confusion.

That she so openly now states that I am not "her man"...that "he is..." and the things she is doing with him on cam...well, it is so very far out there and so deeply dark...that I am realizing this is so far out of my hands...she told me she literally got "close" to him on dec. 5th and it's just been a whilrwind for her...but that she is so very in love with him...and no longer considers me any thing other than a friend, that her one sole desire is to see me "get thru this and be strong again...nothing more"...all of this after she is the one who put me here.

I guess what I am saying is that hearing these things, knowing about the sex cam stuff with a total stranger she is now convinced he is her "new man" and that he is the most incredible man she has ever loved in her life...all this two weeks after leaving...well, it is so crazy (and I dont like to throw around that term to be honest)...but it is so far out there and nuts and crazy...and so beyond "couple trouble" or us working thru anything...that I can't do a single thing about it...that it almost calmed me a lil if that makes sense? Like, this is so obviously insane...this isnt up to me any longer...I am totally powerless given this type of deep mental manic state...it is for a psychiatric clinic...not me...if that makes sense...

of course the longing and pain is still there, dont mean that...

[cash05458]

the other thing I wanted to add...altho I am so depressed and overwhelmed by all this...so not feeling well at all obviously...but I have noticed this: (again, I still feel terrible...so not claiming I am "ok and everything is better")...the house alone here now seems much less stress free..what  I mean is I am not waiting for the next rage attack or even just her emotions...I see now how our house was entirely constructed around her moods...either I was trying to help with her moods, or afraid of them when about us/me...or even relieved that nothing was going on that day...the rage  attacks alone: either going thru one, recovering from the last, waiting for the next...in itself is a small  shining beacon I think I can see over on the mountain thru the fog...

the whole dynamic here has been structured to deal with her emotions and moods...just as an aside, even all our pets seem calmer...

as for ever letting her back in while she speaks and goes on with her new "master" I know that would be not only her abusing me, but ME joining in that abuse towards MYSELF...If I went into that dark place I don't think I would ever emerge...and not to be overly dramatic, but I would prefer even death over that...(and no, not suicidal...no worries)...

[cash05458]

actually...keep getting notes from her...holy smokes did it feel good to send her a note early today after she sent me another one playing all kind and caring..."thank you, but please stop writing...I get that you have a new bf...please focus all your energy on him...that is only correct...and please dont write me again unless it is for some factual reason about pets etc and picking up...I wish you the best...but I totally agree  that we should not be together nor try to get back together...our relationship of six years frankly has been atomized...it can never but put back in any sense even in future after we both learn about ourselves...so please focus, again on your new thing...it is most healthy you do that...and frankly, I dont talk to other men's women...and you are his...he is your guy...focus on him...not me...we are not a couple...we are done and that should be a relief to you...I am finally there with you...this is transparent from both...good luck, honestly"...

now THAT feels like friggin xmas of old days...

[crushedagain]

I haven't read every single post but I just wanted to say that this woman is extremely cruel to the point that she sounds like a narcissist. Narcissists enjoy hurting people. They are devoid of empathy and will intentionally inflict pain upon others. That is what she is doing to you. I hope you can find the strength to completely block her so you can heal. Nothing good can come from contact with this, dare I say, evil woman.

I am terribly sorry you've had to go through something like this. It must have been unimaginable pain for her to start detailing her phone sex exploits a little more than a week after leaving you. How disgusting. You can do better than that. You do not deserve such a level of disrespect. Nobody does.

[cash05458]

thank you Crushed Again...yes, and it has been a insane and crushing few weeks...even from reading some of the terrible stories folks share here...this one has been pretty extreme in that sense...I am and have gone now hard NC... it's the ONLY way I now see for my own recovery. I want that recovery.

[cash05458]

whew, going thru the bends after establishing the  hard NC...why is this so incredibly hard and confusing? I know I have to accept REALITY to move forward...why is there a sense of loss when I know the return or even still wanting will hurt me even more? It's an odd feeling deciding I have to fully establish this...I know it's for the best...but my god...

[B53]

Cash,
It might not feel that way to You, but I see progress. You’re doing well under the circumstances. Hang in there, baby steps.
B53

[cash05458]

Thank you so much B53 for saying that...I genuinely hope that is the case...I want progress; I don't expect miracles. Thank you...

[crushedagain]

When you think about it, there would be incredible pain after the breakup of a "normal" 6 year relationship, which is a lot of what you are feeling. The BPD (and whatever else this woman has) only compounds that. Her actions have only made everything worse. Rubbing your face in what she is doing with another man is disgusting beyond words. You would have been well within your right to hang up on her.

[cash05458]

Thank Crushed Again...she would not really call up to boast...but rather it would be worked in between the lines...if it were a "real" guy she had met...I think this would even make more sense and be less crushing...rather it is a guy she met on facebook three weeks ago...they have never met... he lives 3000 miles away in another country...but has become her new "soulmate"...for some reason that hurts even more...like I am that worthless to her? The real me is worth doing this to...for so far, an electronic penpal and cam sex playmate? After 6 years of sharing our lives, living together wherein we both told one another constantly we were a forever thing? I just so feel so abandoned...I know those are just words adn folks go thru these things...but so hard to grasp inside myself.

[crushedagain]

I do not believe it is possible to be "in love" with a person who you have never met in person, even if you saw them on camera. In my opinion, the likelihood of this working out after she travels to Europe is ZERO. This guy will use her for a while and discard her like a piece of trash. Sex is no foundation for a lasting relationship.