HELP Do I dare consider this?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi,
I really need some input on this email from my ex. This came about because I contacted my ex, to come pick up the rest of his stuff, while I am away for the holidays. Some of you may have read some of my posts and are more familiar with my story. I will fill you in briefly. He is a hermit BPD. He has never cheated on me and I haven’t been replaced. I have never caught him in a lie. He has had the same job for over 20 years. What he did do was idealization, engulfment and devalue. It would start out, by getting upset over some trivial thing I would do, he would take it as rejection, not speak to me for a week, then confront me and accuse me of doing whatever. After it was over he was willing to discuss it, to admit to his distortion, apologize and we would have a few good months and then it would start again. In the last 6 months before it ended, he would get upset and break up with me and then come back with apologies. At that point I didn’t have to point out his distortions, he could figure it out. Early on he suggested couples counseling and we went but the councilor, had no idea what was going on. I later identified his BPD and he was more than willing to get help. He embraced it. He has been in counseling for almost 6 months, with a BPD specialist and is working a DBT program. I know that he hasn’t been in the program long enough for us to jump back in and he isn’t asking that. He is asking for me to be open to trying again. I don’t know if I want to put myself out there, with the possibility of getting slammed again. I can handle the distortion as long if he can recognize it when it happens and can put on the breaks and address it with in an hour or so. No silent treatment, no devaluing. He is also willing to pay for my therapy to learn strategies and he will do couples counseling.

The advice that I was given was to get input from this group. This is the advice I have gotten so far. That this sounds more like a business letter, then a love letter. I think that it was on purpose, because he knows I won’t fall for that emotional stuff anymore. The door to my heart is only open a crack. Do I dare do this?
YOUR THOUGHTS, PLEASE.

Here is his email

Hi ***** - Thank you for your reply.  I hope you can believe that I really do not want for you to feel any additional pain.  I only want to approach this situation in a healthy manner where we can each be heard.  I understand and have the same feelings of a broken heart, broken dreams and sadness.  It has for sure been a difficult and painful journey for both of us. I however have not yet lost hope and I don't believe that it has been in vain.  I believe that we can have a positive outcome.  As much hurt as there has been along the way, I believe that with the work I'm doing I have gotten to that place that we were both trying so hard to reach.  I know that I can give you the best 'me' that no one has ever gotten to see before.  This is why I feel so strongly in my heart and in my head that it would be such a big mistake for us to quit now.  So I hold on to a thin strand of hope that you would share those same beliefs with me.

For me, it seems like such a fine line between advocating for something that I really believe in versus perpetuating the existence of the fear of abandonment.  I am carefully trying to navigate along it.   

As I said before, I know that I will always be in love with you and I do not want to cause you any additional pain.  If you really are firm in your belief that our relationship is over and that you do not want to make any additional attempts to revive our relationship, then let's make this email our very last communication.  If you respond, then that only will provide me that little piece of hope that there still is a chance.  If I do not hear back from you, I'll accept that as your decision.  I give you my word that I will not reach out or make any additional attempts to communicate with you.  I'll accept that it's over.

Please, please hear what I've requested about the sending a response.  If you send a response, it doesn't matter what you say in the response.  And it won't matter what I tell myself in my head.  My heart will only be able to interpret a response from you as a signal for hope.  I have plenty of happy memories of our times together, so one last email response from you is not needed to reinforce any of those.  

So that this does not remain open-ended and to maybe give it some sort of closure, I'll set the last day of this year as my target date.  If I don't hear anything back from you by that day, then I'll stand by my word and keep that promise to you. Also, so that this piece doesn't remain unresolved, I'll work out a way to get my stuff from your house prior to your return on the 27th.

All my love - ****

[B53]

Hi,
I really need some input on this email from my ex. This came about because I contacted my ex, to come pick up the rest of his stuff, while I am away for the holidays. Some of you may have read some of my posts and are more familiar with my story. I will fill you in briefly. He is a hermit BPD. He has never cheated on me and I haven’t been replaced. I have never caught him in a lie. He has had the same job for over 20 years. What he did do was idealization, engulfment and devalue. It would start out, by getting upset over some trivial thing I would do, he would take it as rejection, not speak to me for a week, then confront me and accuse me of doing whatever. After it was over he was willing to discuss it, to admit to his distortion, apologize and we would have a few good months and then it would start again. In the last 6 months before it ended, he would get upset and break up with me and then come back with apologies. At that point I didn’t have to point out his distortions, he could figure it out. Early on he suggested couples counseling and we went but the councilor, had no idea what was going on. I later identified his BPD and he was more than willing to get help. He embraced it. He has been in counseling for almost 6 months, with a BPD specialist and is working a DBT program. I know that he hasn’t been in the program long enough for us to jump back in and he isn’t asking that. He is asking for me to be open to trying again. I don’t know if I want to put myself out there, with the possibility of getting slammed again. I can handle the distortion as long if he can recognize it when it happens and can put on the breaks and address it with in an hour or so. No silent treatment, no devaluing. He is also willing to pay for my therapy to learn strategies and he will do couples counseling.

The advice that I was given was to get input from this group. This is the advice I have gotten so far. That this sounds more like a business letter, then a love letter. I think that it was on purpose, because he knows I won’t fall for that emotional stuff anymore. The door to my heart is only open a crack. Do I dare do this?
YOUR THOUGHTS, PLEASE.

Here is his email

Hi ***** - Thank you for your reply.  I hope you can believe that I really do not want for you to feel any additional pain.  I only want to approach this situation in a healthy manner where we can each be heard.  I understand and have the same feelings of a broken heart, broken dreams and sadness.  It has for sure been a difficult and painful journey for both of us. I however have not yet lost hope and I don't believe that it has been in vain.  I believe that we can have a positive outcome.  As much hurt as there has been along the way, I believe that with the work I'm doing I have gotten to that place that we were both trying so hard to reach.  I know that I can give you the best 'me' that no one has ever gotten to see before.  This is why I feel so strongly in my heart and in my head that it would be such a big mistake for us to quit now.  So I hold on to a thin strand of hope that you would share those same beliefs with me.

For me, it seems like such a fine line between advocating for something that I really believe in versus perpetuating the existence of the fear of abandonment.  I am carefully trying to navigate along it.   

As I said before, I know that I will always be in love with you and I do not want to cause you any additional pain.  If you really are firm in your belief that our relationship is over and that you do not want to make any additional attempts to revive our relationship, then let's make this email our very last communication.  If you respond, then that only will provide me that little piece of hope that there still is a chance.  If I do not hear back from you, I'll accept that as your decision.  I give you my word that I will not reach out or make any additional attempts to communicate with you.  I'll accept that it's over.

Please, please hear what I've requested about the sending a response.  If you send a response, it doesn't matter what you say in the response.  And it won't matter what I tell myself in my head.  My heart will only be able to interpret a response from you as a signal for hope.  I have plenty of happy memories of our times together, so one last email response from you is not needed to reinforce any of those.  

So that this does not remain open-ended and to maybe give it some sort of closure, I'll set the last day of this year as my target date.  If I don't hear anything back from you by that day, then I'll stand by my word and keep that promise to you. Also, so that this piece doesn't remain unresolved, I'll work out a way to get my stuff from your house prior to your return on the 27th.

All my love - ****

[PearlsBefore]

First off, I'd say it's not insane to consider it - I don't know your backstory and only glanced at your post-history because I was trying to figure out his approximate age because it basically makes a prognostic difference whether he improves or declines specifically past his young 20s (teens and young 20s ostensibly look the same for BPDs regardless of their future prospects of stability). But it sounds like, so far as pwBPDs go, you've found one who is really taking it seriously, really improving themselves, and never sank to the levels that so many BPDs do...so while my first though seeing just the title of the post is "I bet this is one of those insane people considering returning to insanity"...no, in this particular case I'd say you're not insane to consider the possibility.

(The quick post-review did find "When he is in a fit and starts putting me down, my response was that I didn’t look to him for my self-esteem, which was true. Most of what he said was so ridiculous and untrue, so I couldn’t take it personally." which might as well appear in my autobiography, haha - so many people don't understand my "thick skin" and it's not something you can explain to people who don't have dBPDs in their life. Had a lawyer express disbelief in how little I cared about some false accusations one dBPD had made - pfft, tomorrow she'll claim I'm a space alien sent to plan 9/11 with my team of velociraptors who all rape little helpless hedgehogs. But how do you explain that to people without experience of BPD rage-fits?)

Also, you're probably not like me, but I'm not sure I'd be able to resist responding to that letter with an image of a potato...or a PDF user manual for a 1987 Dustbuster...or the Consumer Reports review of different flavors of frozen pizza. Such wide-sweeping claims of how "any response" will be interpreted would just be a dare to me  (Legal Notice To Avoid Liability: I do not suggest people be like me in this way)

[B53]

PB,
Thanks!
I’m 67 and he is 64. I have more time behind me then in front of me. Th dating pool ie very shallow at this point.

[B53]

Oh, forgot to say PB, you’re funny!

[PearlsBefore]

Gallows humor gets us through remarkable hardships in life, I'm happy to report. Knowing your ages, I'd say it would be even more understandable to consider the possibility.

With the proviso that I really focus on female-BPD moreso than male-BPD so I might be accidentally quoting female statistics that don't apply to males, I don't believe it's likely that he'll "go downhill" at that age - and if he's engaged with professionals and seeking to improve his responses and learn new techniques...those are quite likely to have a lasting effect. Will every single day be rainbow and sunshines, of course not, but it's not for "normal" couples either.

Basically, "he sounds promising, and at that age it's not an obvious case of "too good to be true". He'll never be perfect (none of us will), and he'll always have BPD - it doesn't get 'cured' or go away...but it sounds like he's really avoided most of the major pitfalls that trap people with BPD and is among the more functional examples. Whether you go back or not is ultimately up to you, but he sounds like the kind of success story that many of us on the site really hope our own pwBPDs grow up to become.

[B53]

Thanks again PB,
Every relationship has conflicts, it's how you deal with them. I expect that he at times will be triggered by something I do or say and I could deal with that as long as after the initial response, he can calm himself and be able to discuss it. I don't want to deal with the emotional withholding and verbal abuse, even if what he is saying I know not to be true. I'm done with that. He once called a very nice dinner that I made, a piddly little meal.I said great, you can do the cooking from now on.
B53

[CoherentMoose]

Hello.  People can and do change.  A quick interwebz search of BPD recovery stories provides quite a list of hopeful stories.  What is promising is he is in therapy and that is a major step.  A MAJOR step.  Continuing therapy, should you open the door to relationship recovery, should be part of the deal.  In fact, it's an instant deal breaker should he ever feel he's now "cured" and stops therapy without full consent from you.   

His letter was somewhat black and white and that should be called out.  Why have a formal "you're dead to me" point?  Relationship building and re-building is a process.  Perhaps a short response stating you are open to beginning a relationship re-building process provided he removes his remaining items from the house and he continues therapy.  Be clear it will be a long hard journey for both of you and the destination will be different relationship. 

I love this from CS Lewis:

“To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves

It's a hard decision.  A scary one I imagine.  I wish you the best.   CoMo

[B53]

Thanks CoMo,
You don’t know how important your feedback is!
I think the black and white is because he wants to stay away from even the pretense of idealization. He is aware of the BPD cycle. This time he is the one walking on eggshells. He has done everything that has been asked of him. He knows the therapy isn’t for me, he will continue even if I don’t come back. As a child, he was physically abused by his father and has been in a lot of emotional pain, his whole life. He wants to find peace. Even before our break, I noticed some difference. When he walked out on me the last time, I told him I was done. He just wasn’t in therapy long enough to get a hold on his response to me. There would be lot’s of written boundaries and I would insist on him affording me therapy as well as couples counseling.Anything less is a dealbreaker.
Thanks again.
B53

[ForeverDad]

One challenge is how to stop the inevitable sinking into the repeated cycles.  This is an idea I've posted before but (1) I'm not sure of my movie references and (2) it may or may not be practical.  This concept certainly didn't work in my case.  Even 15 years later I still can't reason with my Ex.

An old thread so no response expected... .just making a correction about the movie {or sequel} The Over-the-Hill Gang {Rides Again} (Walter Brennan & Jack Elam / Fred Astaire) where the Texas Ranger call to arms is a secret word, "Brazzles!".  It's been many years since I watched these movies, I hope I haven't confused the Brazzles! phrase with The Apple Dumpling Gang {Rides Again} (Don Knotts & Tim Conway).

Film trivia:  The 1980s remake Once Upon a Texas Train morphed Jack Elam, a great character actor, from bad guy to one of the good guys.

A funny code word may not get through and deflect/deflate a rage but may be worth a try, you'd have to set it up beforehand during a calmer interaction.

[B53]

Thanks FD,
I agree, there are things that I need to learn to make it successful and that needs to be done with the guidance of a professional. I think I handled myself well, for most of the relationship, but near the end, I felt like I was loosing that ability and was starting to go downhill, which is why I ended, even though he was getting help. Right now I feel like an animal, that had been abused, even though they are now safe, every time someone moves quickly, they flinch. Trust is something that is earned. Baby steps.
B53

[ForeverDad]

Not that I'm parsing your words but ponder what caught my attention.

I agree, there are things that I need to learn to make it successful and that needs to be done with the guidance of a professional.

Success is not up to you alone.  As the saying goes, it takes two to help a relationship work, only one to make it fail.  So it may be that it will fail no matter how much you learn or how hard you try.  Know that you did try and there is no basis to guilt yourself for whatever the outcome.

every time someone moves quickly, they flinch.

A few years back I recall a member stating that some teachers would make a sudden movement and watch to see how the child reacted.  Children from a reasonably normal home would barely notice.  The ones who reacted were observed as more likely to be at risk.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear B53-

I understand that you’re with your family right now... finally, and I hope you’re able to enjoy this holiday time.  Merry Christmas.

I have a bit of a different take on your partner’s letter, in part because I identified about a year+ ago that I likely have some BPD traits.  I am not diagnosable and have never lashed at any anyone (except when my ex and I parted in February of 2020... I let it ALL OUT - everything that that man had done that I KNEW he had done).  Aside from that, my feelings have been an “inside job”.  I have a very stable work history, friendships, had a LT marriage... but I believe my traits manifest in how I process feelings internally, in my head.   

But because I generally keep my mouth shut, no one knows they become my “enemy” for a half hour.  Until I work out their “unjust behavior” in my head.  And this can be if they make a remark about a politician I see as brutal.  Or a negative comment against one of my valued clients.  Their comment does NOT have to be personal toward me.  At all.  My pain has run deeply and silently for years.  And I finally understand why, which actually feels good to know.

Sorry for the aside.  But hoping this gives a bit of insight into why I may see this differently.  I do not see your partner’s message as business-like.  I see his letter as genuine and an attempt to see whether there IS any chance.  In your earlier posts, I recall reading that he was not supposed to reach out to you (according to his T).  So would he have some fear here to express anything beyond what he has expressed?

What IS missing is how YOU feel.  I understand your fear.  It’s very hard to step back in once you’ve exited and begun to detach.  But do you feel love for him?

I am 63.  I know my days of a loving relationship are likely finished.  It seems the men I am “friends” with or have met in the last several years seem angry... bitter.  I am afraid of that.  So either that or really inflexible.  My ex HAS contacted me (most recently on 12/14/2020); but he is SO ill, SO narcissistic (and BPD), that I will not... and he has never done any work on himself at all.  And sadly, He never will.

So your difference is that your partner IS working on change.  And that my friend, is HUGE.  I hope I’m not confusing you with another member, but did you reference that you had experienced an abusive marriage?  If so, I am truly and deeply sorry.  And if so, it is vital that you properly address the impacts of that experience on you, so that if and when you’re with THIS man, you are with THIS man.  That will be the love you bring.

I wish you the very best.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[cash05458]

B53...Hi B53,

as you know I am new here...so I am just learning of these things more deeply and hurting myself...

Others may disagree with me but my gut reaction to his letter is that it seems to have an undertone of manipulation. Perhaps I am wrong. Giving you time to think and yet giving you an actual end date to decide what you think is right for you...well, I find that a touch manipulative myself. I could be wrong and perhaps others know disagree...but that is my feeling. 

[MeandThee29]

Not that I'm parsing your words but ponder what caught my attention.

Success is not up to you alone.  As the saying goes, it takes two to help a relationship work, only one to make it fail.  So it may be that it will fail no matter how much you learn or how hard you try.  Know that you did try and there is no basis to guilt yourself for whatever the outcome.

A few years back I recall a member stating that some teachers would make a sudden movement and watch to see how the child reacted.  Children from a reasonably normal home would barely notice.  The ones who reacted were observed as more likely to be at risk.

It really is up to you. Over more than a decade, we had broken up multiple times and been headed for divorce and then turned it around. Mine claimed "all better" after doing his own work; however, his approach to reconciliation was manipulative and unrealistic. I consulted multiple professionals and wise friends, and no one recommended that approach. Both professionals said maybe living apart and working on the issues with someone who knew what they were doing and then deciding if trust was rebuilt.

However, they do often get better when the triggering person is not in their lives, but then being together blows it up again.

In my case, my attorney said that divorce brings out the worst in people, but some people struggle at first and then come through it fine. If there is mental illness, divorce will make it worse. My ex's behavior got worse and worse during the divorce. His poor attorney wanted to quit over and over, and stayed in it as a favor to mine. So that was my answer. No real change.  

[B53]

Thanks everyone for responding, I really appreciate it, more than you know.

FD,
The therapy would be for me, to sort through how much this relationship has impacted me emotionally and if returning would be a healthy choice. I also want to know the correct way to respond when it looks like things may be heading in the wrong direction. Which is a skill that will benefit me, no matter what the outcome is. I want a couple’s councilor to help draw up a contract so to speak, as to realistic and appropriate boundaries. Maybe even try roll playing. I was in the process of getting a councilor, that he agreed to pay for, but we broke up before that happened. He said he would give permission for his and my future councilor to talk, so they would know the best way to help.

Cash,
It would be hard for someone to tell if the letter is manipulative because you don’t know the tone or the person. Of course his goal is for me to give him another chance, so of course, that could be considered a form a manipulation. I would consider a more emotional letter as manipulative, like he was tugging at my heartstrings, so I’m glad he wrote it the way he did. He said in a past email, that he brought this on himself, therefor he had not right to be upset with me for choosing to move on.

Gemsforeyes,
 Yes, I was in a verbally abusive marriage, which ended 20 years ago. I did counseling and CODA for five years. When I met him, my head was in a good place. I was happy with my life and who I was as a person. The first time he got upset with me and started projecting his feelings onto me, I told him that I would hope that the person that I am with, would think better of me then that. I knew from the beginning that this was about him, not me. The reason I stayed so long was, because he was always willing to do what ever it would take to get better. He bought an hour glass and said that the next time something happened we could turn it over and when it ran out, then we would come back together and talk. He found a couple’s councilor and paid for it. At the time we didn’t know that he had BPD, so logical solutions were never going to work.

I’m feeling really mixed. We have a lot in common. We both like outdoor activities, hiking, biking, camping, which was not mirroring because he did this before me. We shared chores and both love music and in-between episodes, there was never bickering or put downs. I like to dance and he signed us up for ballroom dancing and tried to learn the two step. He would help people stranded on the side of the road. Last Christmas, after spending time with his family, he took a five-hour train ride to my daughters, so I wouldn’t have to drive back alone. He gave his diabetic brother a kidney. The person that does all those things, and more I love! But when the BPD comes out, it’s draining. I added up all the bad times and compared it to the good times and it came out to 14% bad times to 86% good times. Though the intensity of the bad times, probably would make it more like 20/80 or 25/75.

I can look back on past relationships and own my contribution to their demise. The biggest mistake girls make; is they think they can change a guy. We learn the hard way, that you can change people, they have to want to change. I have been irrational with my expectations, used emotional with holding, been passive aggressive and may more behaviors that will take a relationship down. I realized, that guys were telling me the same things about myself, that I didn’t want to admit to, but the common denominator was me. So I read a lot of books, cleaned up my act, grew up and started contributing to relationships, instead of contaminating them. I worked really hard, I’m proud of the person I am now and what I have to offer to make a relationship work. Unfortunately, with a BPD partner, I didn’t know what I was up against.

 ““Vulnerability is not weakness, and the uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure we face every day are not optional. Our only choice is a question of engagement. Our willingness to own and engage with our vulnerability determines the depth of our courage and the clarity of our purpose; the level to which we protect ourselves from being vulnerable is a measure of our fear and disconnection"
Brené Brown

What I do know, is that I don’t want to spend the time that I have left alone.
So my options are-
I can walk away and hope to find someone who treats me better?   
                                         OR
 I give him a chance and hope that he has put the work in and he will treat me better?
Either way, I could be opening my self up for heartache or happiness. Both are a gamble.
Will I be ok never knowing the outcome of not giving it a try?  If I do go back, I think if it is going to fail, it won’t take long for it to happen.

MT29,
yes they do get better when their trigger is not around and it is possible that there is a pattern that we will not be able to break. But if he has not gotten a grasp on being triggered, then he will take that with him to his next relationship. what I do know is that if you change how you respond to someone, then they will have to change also, because the dynamics are different and the old behavior no longer works. Now that doesn't necessarily mean the change is going to be for the better or worse, just different.

Thanks again everyone!
B53

[B53]

Hi Gemsforeyes,

 I was just wondering if maybe what you think are signs of BPD are actually signs of HSP, Highly sensitive personality. There are some similar behaviors, like getting your feelings hurt easily. Out of 21 questions, I I fit 16.
Just a thought.

B53

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey B53-

Thank you for bringing up the HSP topic.  So... a great big YES.  WOW... I found several tests and took them.  Egads.

However... I do engage in a bit of  B &W thinking on occasion (though I change my mind).  The thing that does set me apart is my disassociation.  I do this, have done this for years and I completely understand the “why’s” of it.  I just didn’t understand it or know it had a name until about 1.5 years ago.

It mostly has to do with intimacy.  And strangely, the first and ONLY person I ever explained anything about it to was my exBPD/NPD partner.  I’d say, “I need you to keep me here”.  And he would constantly say my name... stare into my eyes.

My GOD... I’ve never spoken a word of this... I cannot.

[B53]

Gems,
When I first read about BPD, I identified with several of the criteria listed, then there was an article about HSP and they compared the two. I also do Black and white thinking, I have tendency to us the words always and never. Since I became aware of it I have tried to stop and even ask my SO to tell me when I do it. It’s not the same as a BPD would. It’s more like I would say something like, I always have to do all the laundry and nobody else ever helps. It’s usually not true, it’s just that I do it more. I don’t see people’s character in Black and white. I disassociate also, but not the same. I just do inside my head, once again not directed at anyone. In the Mayer Briggs personality test, I was a INFJ and having an inner world is part of that type of personality. It’s fun to take. After I wrote you about HSP, I saw it as one of test on the site.The Myer Briggs is on here too, but I don’t think they call it that. For me the major difference is that I don’t Idealize or devaluing.  I never lay into people, I more likely internalize hurt feelings.
I feel sad that you don’t believe that you ever will be in another relationship. I will always hold out either with my BPD partner or someone else. I have had several really good relationships and even though they didn’t last, they made me the person that I am.  I have been really hurting the last few months, but I have no doubt I will get over it. It’s easy to read posts and say to others that they deserve better, why is it so hard to tell ourselves that?
I think I might give my relationship another try, but if he crosses my boundaries, then he will be so gone. Yes, I may be sad for awhile, but just grieving a relationship takes awhile. I can’t believe that I am where I am now as to where I was two months ago. We just have to keep telling ourselves that we are worth it. You are worth it! I’ll get down off my soap box now.
B53

[livednlearned]

It would be hard for someone to tell if the letter is manipulative because you don’t know the tone or the person. Of course his goal is for me to give him another chance, so of course, that could be considered a form a manipulation.

It's an ultimatum.

Do this or else.

He attempts to manage his internal state by controlling what is external. This only works if the other person acts perfect 100 percent of the time, and because that's not possible, he is more or less chronically fighting to regain a one-up position.

Because it's an ultimatum, he sets the rules of engagement.

Using the emotional roller coaster metaphor, he is learning to slow the ride down and is willing to talk about getting off and getting grounded. He remembers what the ground feels like and knows that the ride has hurt you. He is also saying with his ultimatum: do this or else.

He's unskilled. His letter is a mixture of what he's learning and who he still is.

As far as responding, it's ok to ask for more time. He seems to feel fearful that more time will put him at a disadvantage. Maybe validating his fears while slowing things down will give you both an opportunity to catch your breath.

I think I might give my relationship another try, but if he crosses my boundaries, then he will be so gone.

Learning to change a lifetime of behavior will be hard for him. Boundaries are hard for people without BPD and they are almost other-worldly for someone with BPD.

He will most certainly cross a boundary.

Sometimes the way we manage these relationships is to focus on tiny little changes. "Am I seeing an improvement in ______ behavior, for example. He used to give me the silent treatment for a week, now we've learned that he needs to excuse himself for ___ hours to return to baseline. He no longer verbally demeans me when it's over and I use that time of quiet to focus on my own wellbeing."

Boundaries are things you have control over, which is yourself. They are the things you will do to keep yourself safe from _________.

Boundary: "I will not tolerate verbal abuse. When someone yells at me, I will walk away/leave the room/put on headphones/stay in a hotel/go for a walk."

Rule: "Do not call me names."

Ultimatum: "If you swear at me I will leave and you will never hear from me again."

The second and third tend to set things up to fail because we don't have control over the outcomes like we do with the first.

The specific relationship and communication skills we learn here really do work. They aren't easy and they aren't guaranteed but they do improve the chances that we'll get different and hopefully better outcomes.

[B53]

Thanks livednlearned,

Yes, I thought of it as an ultimatum too. But I also feel like he needs to know if there is ever going to be a possibility or needs to give up hope. He has always held out for hope and if it is not going to happen he needs closure and so do I.

I think when triggered he is fighting for a one-up position, but I don't think he has ever felt like he has had one. When he would walk away from me, I never chased after him and after the episode ended, I made him explain the accuracy of his accusations and what facts he had to support them. Which of course he could not.

I'm a preschool teacher and I am use to dealing with childish temper-tantrums, which has made me a little more experienced to dealing with him. I think that when he was diagnose with BPD, it changed the dynamics for me and I became more empathic and it was harder for me to stand my ground. It was easy when I just thought he was an AH.

I am going to give him the chance, but I am not going to send it until 11:45. It is my rebellion to his ultimatum, even though I do realize it is passive aggressive, which isn't really acceptable either. Ultimatum/passive aggressive, I'm trying to level the playing field. Is that unkind of me?

I have a written message ready to go. I wrote that I don’t expect a conflict free relationship. It would be unreasonable to believe that hurtful things won’t be said, by both parties, but how they are resolved is what will make or break this relationship. I also said that I want to go to a couple’s counselor to help us decide what are reasonable expectations and boundaries. 

The truth is, that I am not going down that rabbit hole again and if we are unable to at least head in a more positive direction, I'm not wasting my time. I know it is not all up to him and that I have a lot to learn on my side, but I need this to be a recovery based relationship, not one where BPD is driving the bus.

I appreciate your feed back and thankful that you don't think I'm a total fool to be trying this.

B53

[B53]

I just sent it. I thought that I was holding back to level the playing field. The truth is I'm scared. I want to start the new year with a new beginning, not a continuation of the last. I so hope I did the right thing. No matter what, I know that I am strong enough to handle what is a head.

Happy New Year everyone. Thanks for helping get through a very difficult time!

[formflier]

Hey B53

I would encourage you to consider your part of the relationship.

When he would walk away from me, I never chased after him and after the episode ended, I made him explain the accuracy of his accusations and what facts he had to support them. Which of course he could not.

How did this affect the relationship?

I am going to give him the chance, but I am not going to send it until 11:45. It is my rebellion to his ultimatum, even though I do realize it is passive aggressive, which isn't really acceptable either. Ultimatum/passive aggressive, I'm trying to level the playing field. Is that unkind of me?
 

I'm curious what your response would look like if "for the sake of discussion", you didn't focus on the angle of the playing field, instead focusing on validation.

Article about validation

Best,

FF

[B53]

FF,
Good questions. The fact that he was able to discuss and see his irrational behavior is what made me stay as long as Idid and he seeked helped. I believe he was sincere at those moments and before his diagnosis, he would become tearful and say I don't know why I act that way. He said that when he walked out, there was always a voice in his head that told him that this wasn't what he wanted to do, but he couldn't stop once he started. He would gaslight when in the throws of it, but after the fact he would shamefully own his behavior. I work with all women and most are married. I would say out of 17 couples, only about 5 are happy and healthy, one person is dealing with a bipolar husband. Their communication skills are far less intimate, open and and acknowledging, then ours. I believe that if he learns to regulate his emotions (DBT) we could have a chance.

I was struggling with conflicting emotions when I wrote that and didn't share all that I wrote. He has admitted that he has caused me great pain. He has said that he would never put up with what he did to me. He said that he knows that he doesn't deserve another chance. In my response I told him that I realized that his disorder was the reason that he acted that way in the past, but from here forward, he is aware that what he does causes me pain and now it will be a choice that he has made. No amount of sorries will make it alright. I told him that if he is unable to recognize when I am hurt and in emotional pain and is unable to respond with empathy and tend to my feelings instead of dexifying , then we need not bother to move forward. Once again this is not the total of the actual letter.

His response exact response was his and no more.
Thank you. You're right, everything you said ( then prayer emoji).

We still have not talked and have only exchanged a few back and forth emails. He sent me a link for a course for family members to take, to help them deal with their BPD family member. I told him that "I am not putting anymore time into this until I know there is a future there for me. This relationship is about us and it's time that my side of us is being cared about and supported, not for me to learn more about how to care and respond to you."

The last contact was about finding a therapist for me.

I think that was asking for validation, but I may be wrong. If so, what do you think I should let him know?
B53
 

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey B53-

It’s really late.  Such a hard hard day... I probably shouldn’t be writing right now, but I don’t want to forget.

It seems your last two responses to your exBF are missing something... you.  Sort of any part of you.

I think what FF May have been referring to as “Validation” was some sort of validation of your ex.  What your BF is saying, proposing, trying to improve.  At least that’s my take.  And validation is EXTREMELY vital for pwBPD.

Something that’s important to recognize and embrace is that your partner did seem genuinely apologetic for his behaviors pretty close to the time when they happened.  He explained that he did NOT understand why they happened.  And since his diagnosis, at least from what you’ve explained, he’s been dedicated to his therapy.  

I’m wondering if you’re being unrealistic.  And a bit unreasonable.  Holding this guy to a standard of thinking that after a lifetime (nearly 60 years ?) of his handling (or NOT handling) his emotions in a certain way... to think that he’s going to be able to completely avoid repeating ANY and ALL of those behaviors.  He’s not.

Although he’s been doing therapy and working hard, he has not been doing this directly in relation to YOU.

If you truly love this man, why would you be adamant to NOT wish to learn how to engage more effectively with a partner with BPD through an available family program?

I say all of the above somewhat wistfully... if only mine had... 

Please give this some thought.  Maybe you are done... it feels to me that with ongoing ultimatums, this may be DOA.

B53, I don’t intend to be harsh, but Are you truly a willing participant?  Neither of you can “promise” a future until both of you try.  And ANY skills you may learn in the proposed therapy will not be wasted lessons.

Warmly,
Gems

[formflier]

Hey B53,

I want to give you a couple observations about myself ( or me observing my old self).  Sometimes "seeing" things in others makes it easier to take a peek at yourself.

...and also (for clarity), I'm not making a judgment about you...I'm offering up an observation for you to try on for size...let me know if it fits.

I think what FF May have been referring to as “Validation” was some sort of validation of your ex.  What your BF is saying, proposing, trying to improve.  At least that’s my take.  And validation is EXTREMELY vital for pwBPD.

The "old" me would have corrected Gems and said "No..that's not what I meant, what I meant was"...    When in truth she has a large part of it right, maybe she expresses it differently or puts emphasis in a different way that I meant.

So...instead of "no...xyz", I've learned through therapy (one of many lessons) that "and also" is such a much better, inclusive way of discussing than "no..." or "yes but"

It's sort of a way of validating and appreciating Gems taking the time to "hear" me and spend time pondering my words. 

Here is the thing, I'm fully confident that if I had a bad day and did "no but", that things with Gems would be  OK, yet I'm also just as confident that "and also" will add a bit  of warmth and appreciation.  And those things add up...

Let's switch gears to another observation.

I'm a "thinker" (ESTJ) and emotions come way down on the list for me, which also leads me to consider the emotions of others "way down on the list".

There was a time when I would have proudly talked about how my pwBPD could verbalize and talk through how "wrong" they were..how destructive...etc etc.  I would be encouraged that they were "getting it" and would change.

Without even giving a moments thought to how it must feel to talk about the crushing horror that you go around inflicting on other people.

Clarity:  There is a time and place for plain speaking.  It's just as important to realize that what is helpful for thinkers can be cutting to the core of an emotional person (like a pwBPD)

Let's switch gears again.

In addition to being a thinker...I'm a "judger" (estj).  So...I would and still do think about "oh...I believe he is sincere".  (I don't think we should learn to turn that off, I do think we should realize the impact of "judging" emotionally sensitive people, or anyone really).

There is an implicit message of "other times he wasn't being sincere".  And it's likely that even if you didn't say "I believe you are being sincere" ( to him), that he picked up on the "vibe" from you anyway.  (oh..I used to protest to my pwBPD..all the time, "but I never said that...") 

And I didn't say it, but it came through in other ways.  Remember...pwBPD are very perceptive and OVERLY focused on the actions/tones/words/facial expressions of others and "what that means".

I should hush for a bit and listen for your response.  Any of this landing for you?


Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

There are studies out there about the caregiver burden for those who have a BPD loved one. It's understandable to feel fatigue, anger, resentment. It takes a lot of strength to not be emotionally injured in a BPD relationship and the rates of depression and anxiety for partners and family members are amongst the highest.

There are a lot of people on these boards running on seriously empty tanks.

Even so, I don't sense that you feel contempt for your H ... is that accurate to say?

I believe that if he learns to regulate his emotions (DBT) we could have a chance.

You're patient, loving, and tolerant and you've put in a lot of work, only to be hurt repeatedly. For every lap around the track he walks, you run 10. It's understandable to need a break, and to want him to have some speed and endurance for once.

It reminds me of Spoon Theory, something a woman with Lupus developed to communicate to healthy people what it's like to be chronically ill. For those of us who are healthy, we wake up with 10 spoons and maybe use 3 a day. Sometimes 7. Maybe 10 on a hard day.

Someone who is chronically ill may wake up with 5 and use 3 of them just to get out of bed.

Someone with BPD is going to have fewer spoons.

Someone living with someone with BPD is going to have fewer spoons (but probably more than someone with BPD).

Most of the skills we learn here on this board are based on a) guarding the number of spoons we have so that b) we can support our loved ones.

I mention this because supporting your H might mean communicating to him that you are working on taking care of yourself right now so that the relationship might work.

As opposed to you preparing to leave because of what he did, or unless he does DBT, or if you decide you've had enough.

Does that make sense?

My hope for you is that you focus on your own spoons. The more spoons you have, the less likely you will feel the need to "level the playing field" as you describe it. The less likely you will see his choices through the lens of "do this or else I will ______".

Instead, it will be, "I have enough energy and compassion right now/today/later for ______. Let's table ________ until I have a chance to get myself to a better place."

In my BPD relationship (stepdaughter who was living with us) I found it helped to envision having a cup that was my job to fill and keep filled each day.

The fuller it was, the more emotional strength I had for her (the more spoons).

If I slept well my cup was full the moment I got out of bed and it was my job to keep it filled throughout the day. If I woke up tired, I had to take greater care to protect what was there and work a bit harder to keep it filled. The fuller it was, the better I could engage.

I started to pay attention to how I felt physically and what sapped me. If something sapped me, I made small changes. A lot of those changes were specific to my circumstances and my temperament, but they include all the obvious ones: sleep, exercise, mindfulness, space/distance, learning to say no, etc.

You have the advantage of being in an intimate relationship with an openly acknowledge diagnosis, and the ability to communicate directly. Your H has some self-awareness and a desire to work on himself. What your H may want and need from you is a sign that you're willing to work on your amazing self so that, if he has to, he has room to wobble. It's not fair, and it's part of being an emotional leader with more spoons than he has (for now, at least).

I know this stuff is hard.

I felt tremendous resentment toward my stepdaughter, not to mention genuine grief. I have a BPD brother who was violent in my childhood and an ex husband who would likely qualify for dual dx BPD and substance abuse if he had agreed to get help. Discovering that my current husband had a so-called quiet BPD daughter nearly derailed our marriage. I was done having a BPD boot print on the back of my head.

Surprisingly, taking my focus off of what others did or didn't do, and focusing on what I could do for myself has improved not only those relationships, but all of my relationships.

The DBT stuff can be very useful skills for anyone. If you're curious about the process from someone who had a bad then good experience, the memoir Buddha and the Borderline is an excellent book. A good companion book to that (for developing skills) is Loving Someone with BPD.

Sometimes the way I think about my step daughter is that I made her feel safe by having better boundaries for myself. The boundaries are what create the sides of the cup.

You have a lot of self-awareness and courage to share what you do and why. That bodes really well for this path you're on.  

[B53]

Thank you for all the responses.

Believe it or not, I understand what you are saying to me and fully agreed that at the moment I am not seeing things through reasonable eyes. I will try to explain the many, many conflicting thoughts that are running in my head.

If you were to go back and read any of my posts, I don’t think you will find one, where I haven’t spoken about my ex with kindness and empathy and I was aware that it was not about me personally. Even to a point, that what I was saying was probably interpreted as magical thinking and mentioned as codependent. When he was diagnosed, I was on a mission to find everything I could to get, to get an understanding of BPD, from TED talks, YouTube, articles, internet and audio books. Hours and hours of work were all for naught. I am very aware that I will need to have reasonable expectations.  I hope I can explain this in a way that you can at least see where I am coming from.

Yes, he is aware of feelings, but how he interrupts them is my struggle. Here are a few scenarios that will hopefully make my point. Sorry ahead of time for them being so long.

This was the second to the last episode we had. We woke up in the morning and in a harsh tone, he said that I hit him rather hard during the night and that he was now thinking of sleeping in another room. The amount of strength as to how hard I hit him would later change from a hard punch to a soft hit. I am not a morning person and still half asleep, I said that I was sorry, that I didn’t remember doing it and I would understand if he wanted to sleep somewhere else, no one deserves to be attacked while they sleep and then I went to work. That is where it ended for me. He has a habit when sleeping to take the covers and roll them under him. I’m pretty sure what I did was to try to pull the covers out from under him so I had some, as I had done many times before, to stay warm. He knows he does it, I don’t like it, but he does it when he is asleep, so I deal with it and never made it an issue. So from there, he talked to me just enough so that I was not able to say he was giving me the silent treatment. He went to the beach and I met him a few days later, when my family arrived. At the beach he asked to talk and I went with him to a place where we could be alone. I had no idea what I had done to trigger this. Then all the accusations came and he said that unless I said that he was right and I admitted to all the crazy things he was saying, then there was nothing left to talk about. Of course I didn’t. All this was about me hitting him in my sleep and then telling me how mad I was at him and how poorly I was treating him and a bunch of other things that I did, that didn’t make sense and then the character assignation followed. That was the opposite, I was treating him nicely, hoping that whatever was bothering him would pass. I even tried to talk again at a later time. I was still painted black. He gave me the silent treatment for the rest of the weekend and talked to everyone but me. He ruined my weekend with my family. It was horrible for everyone.

I know this is a story that probably isn’t unfamiliar to anyone on this site, in one form or another. When the time of discussion came, my question to him was, you were upset that I hit you, but were you ever concerned, that you continuously pull the covers off me and I get cold. You tell me what I have done to you, but are you aware of what you do to me? He acted like understood my point.

One time his answer to a question was, you were in the bathroom and I thought you weren’t feeling well, so I went upstairs. I asked him that if he thought that I wasn’t feeling well, then why did he go upstairs unconcerned. Most people would ask if I needed help.

The thanksgiving before last, he was suppose to meet me at the beach after he spent time with his family. My daughter had been having panic attacks so badly over the previous months, that I had to take three weeks off of work, drive eight hours to her house to help take care of my grandchildren, so her husband could work and have a needed break.  After I came home from there, she would FaceTime me everyday and she would always end up crying. He was there many times to hear it. Not only was she not well enough to join us for Thanksgiving, I spent several hours that day on FT trying to console her as she cried. This was really hard to see my child go through. I was looking forward to my ex coming, because I really needed a soft place to fall. He walks in the door, recognizing that I was upset, that something was wrong with me and decided I was mad at him. Never asked what was wrong. I think he was already mad,  because I didn't come to his families house with him. I wasn't going to leave my son alone on Thanksgiving. Even his daughter didn't understand why he didn't leave earlier and  they arrived at 11:30pm. I can't prove it and I never brought it up.The next day, I did say that it is hurtful when someone turns their back to you in bed and you don’t know why. Again, he didn’t talk to me all weekend. Never asked about my daughter. His daughter said that she was horrified that he acted that way. That she thought he only did that to her. When he is like that, he is unapproachable and there is no way to get through to him, until he is ready. I guess he was splitting.

The point here is this. When I need emotional support, before he even asks what is wrong, he figures that I am angry and alienates me. However I respond to an email is an interpretation he decides to take when he reads it, no matter how it is written.

After BPD became the focus, I started to realize that our relationship was always about him and it was a subject that I brought up to him, not in an unkind way. My feelings were never acknowledged and if they were, they were misinterpreted and he went into BPD mode. I started asking myself, what was I getting out of this? Then I read that BP’s don’t love, they attach. That was a hard thing to comprehend, because it all seemed so real to me. I wondered if he ever really loved me. When the last conflict happened, which once again require him to have empathy, I decided I wasn’t going to be a martyr, caretaker or codependent and when he walked out again, I felt I had enough.

Of course over time he came back. I discussed with him the many times that he was unable to show me empathy and that trust did not exist, because that is something that is earned. I can’t be in a relationship where my needs are never met. Of course he agreed.

In our recent communications, I told him that empathy and our relationship needs to meet the needs of both of us. He wants me to come back, but I need to know that there is something in it for me. He needs to have done enough work to be able to at least show, that it is something he is capable of doing. I think I can cope with occasional episodes; I was able to hold my own for quite awhile. He makes five times what I make and he can afford the best therapist and anything else that he needs for his recovery. He once offered to pay for therapy for me, but it never came to be. In almost every email I have sent, I said that I needed to talk with someone to help me sort through all my mixed feelings and have someone to support me through this. So when the first thing I get from him, is for me to take a class to learn more about my relationship with him, I have to say I didn’t take it well. I know it wasn’t intentional and his offer was meant to be kind, but it was still none the less about him. Why wasn’t his first offer about therapy which I keep asking for. I told him that when I feel that he can show me that my well being is one of his priorities, then I will take any course he wants. All I have gotten is, sort of an ultimatum letter, that may or may not be more then just another BPD promise that will not be kept. There is a part of me that is pushing to see, if how I respond will trigger him and see if he lashes out or remains kind and sincere, but he will read into it what he wants to anyway. At this moment, I am quite aware that I am not in the mental state that I will need to be in, to be successful. I know that I am not validating him, which I will do when he makes a non-ambiguous approach that indicates his concern for me.

Which he as finally done. He has offered to even pay for out of network counseling, if we can’t find someone that has the experience that I need. That for me is a huge step as he is already paying out of pocket for his and that may possibly put a  strain on his income. I was looking for someone who takes my insurance. I responded kindly.
To be honest, I was thinking of taking the course, without telling him for now, even before it was pointed out as something I should. 

B53

[formflier]

Hmmm

Would a solution be to agree to meet him at the therapists office?  Or perhaps on a joint zoom call?

Essentially the only communication would be about that meeting.

After a few of them, I think you will get a feeling for his level of commitment.

Best,

FF

[Fian]

"I can handle the distortion as long if he can recognize it when it happens and can put on the breaks and address it with in an hour or so. "
Personally, I don't think this is a reasonable goal.  Even if you were with a neurotypical individual, fights will usually last over an hour.  Men also have a tendency to retreat when it comes to conflict (which isn't a bad thing as it allows our anger to subside as opposed to becoming violent).  So, partial silent treatment is also normal (complete ST isn't normal).

If you reengage with him, I think it would be better to set more achievable goals.  Don't let the fight carry over to the next day.  Fight fair (certain behaviors should be avoided no matter how angry you get).

[Fian]

Your last post talked about wanting empathy from him.  To be honest, that is often not a strong point for men, BPD or not.  Men are often less sensitive to what their spouse is feeling.  I suspect for a BPD person dealing with a lot of internal turmoil, it is difficult for them to also take on the turmoil of others.

I suspect that he is not capable of giving you the full empathy that you desire.  Would you be ok if he gave you a little?  It might also help if you explicitly tell him that you could use some support as opposed to expecting/complaining that he can't read what you are feeling.  I suspect that if you asked for support, he gives a little, and you then show appreciation, you may be able to avoid some of his BPD moods.