Experience with in-home separation / D w/kids

[worriedStepmom]

I wonder if letting go of trying to get agreement, and instead being proactive towards the kids' needs, would change the dynamic. She wouldn't like it, of course, but you would regain some agency and the kids would get that compassionate communication from you ahead of time, instead of also being shocked and unsettled by Mom's unpredictability.

Yes!  This.

Part of the complexity of divorce is figuring out where the appropriate separation is.  While married, you're used to consulting your wife and trying to get some form of consensus.   When divorced, that doesn't always apply.  It can't, because your life is/will be separate from your wife's.

My goal with my kids and stepkid is to make decisions that are in their best interests.  Sometimes that means consensus with the other parent.  Sometimes (especially when it's SD's uBPDmom), it means we make decisions or set boundaries on our own.

It's a little more complicated for you since the two of you are still sharing a home.  Now is the time to start refocusing your thinking to "what do *I* think is best for the kids".  We can help brainstorm the best way to get to that point.

[EyesUp]

It's a little more complicated for you since the two of you are still sharing a home.  Now is the time to start refocusing your thinking to "what do *I* think is best for the kids".  We can help brainstorm the best way to get to that point.

Thank you - I could really use some help with this.  My wife is pushing hard to tell the kids about D, but has not provided any proposals whatsoever re: plans or next steps.

I will most likely receive papers this week, however my atty indicated that my W has yet to provide financial statements and communication from her atty is incomplete.  There is a risk that my W will unilaterally communicate with the kids, although we have discussed how to talk with them together (it's not your fault, we both love you, you will have two homes... ), the issue is that we don't have any of the information that would be most important to them (are we moving? when? will we go to the same schools? will we have the same friends? etc.).  In the past we have been so careful about how to communicate with them about changes, including our move to a new town less than 2 years ago.

W is increasingly emotional / irrational, so I know I cannot count on agreement.  What would be super helpful, even though it's a huge ask, would be to brainstorm how to navigate this situation whichever way it plays out.

Another risk is that W is actively communicating with her friends, who are moms to our youngest D's classmates.  I have no doubt that I am being smeared in the process, and there is a risk that one of D's friends might overhear something and perceive or know something before D does, and might spill...

Working with my atty to put some scenarios for potential settlement together, but my gut says this will go to trial.  Just found out who the judge is - relatively new and therefore not well known.  Very nuts and bolts, which might actually be a good thing for me if unwilling to entertain / less likely to be swayed by unsubstantiated arguments from my W...

Also, somewhat predictably, there is anecdotal evidence that W is "dating" or hooking up or something.  Without going into detail, it's just another indication that she will prioritize her own gratification over pretty much anything.  

[worriedStepmom]

I think you ought to tell the kids ASAP.

It's okay that you don't have the final information.  You tell them the plan that you do have.

"Right now, mom and dad are both going to live in this house.  It will be a while before the divorce is final, and during that time mom and dad will work to figure out the details - where we will each live, when you will be at each of your new houses, etc.  These are grownup decisions to make, with the help of a judge.  They aren't decisions for kids to make."

[EyesUp]

I think you ought to tell the kids ASAP.

I'm struggling with this.

The summons has not been issued, or signed.  There is no agreement or even a preliminary proposal.  Exposing the kids to a huge amount of uncertainty would be bad for them, and counter to advice in the "how to talk to kids about D" books I've read so far.  Also, informing the kids in the absence of a plan would enable W to play the victim card - hard - with the kids.  Parentification, etc.

She's already doing it in passive ways, but then again - I can now clearly see that this is what she's been doing all along.

This battle is only going to get worse, I'm afraid.  Maybe I'm trying to hold on to last moments of relatively stability for the kids, but my fear is that exposing them without any semblance of a plan only extends a likely traumatic period for them. 

W is actively dating, I'm slightly optimistic that her new paramour(s) will occupy enough of her attention to provide some time to improve planning, if only on my side. 

[EyesUp]

Welcome back.  Anyone know what happened the past few days?

Over here, I had a lightbulb moment while interviewing a potential resource for D10.  The counselor agreed that it's important to present a unified front, focus on what's important to kids, etc., UNLESS...    there is high conflict.

I realize that my disordered W likely perceives and reports high conflict to her IC and PsyD, et al. Never mind the fact that she instigates conflict, and what I view as small (she's upset I bought groceries...) she views as large.

Still mulling what to do, anticipating TOs soon, etc.

The low contact thing is difficult when cohab'ing, options are limited. 

[EyesUp]

Still cohabing, still have not informed the kids.

For those who have divorced, how did you get through the process?  Has anyone negotiated an agreement without going to trial?

My uCNPDw is fanning flames of conflict.  First avail hearing date is end of Nov.  Might need to go for temp orders. 

[worriedStepmom]

My H and his uBPDex negotiated a settlement on their own.

However, she is TERRIFIED of courts (she thinks a judge will look at her and take her kid away forever) so she was really motivated to agree to what H proposed.

[GaGrl]

My H and his ex negotiated a settlement, but it took 9 months and I finally saying, OK, it looks like court" for her to agree. I have up far more in assets than he should, but he was ready to finalize. Ex also is terrified of courts and judges -- she has had several arrests for actions taken against boyfriends over the years, plus she didn't want anyone looking into her business, which was shady.

I think you can negotiate a settlement of there is some leverage to use at the right time.

[ForeverDad]

I think you can negotiate a settlement if there is some Leverage to use at the right time.

The Leverage also might be $$$ or maybe something the Ex really wants or a looming trial or major hearing.

I had been through every single step of my divorce process (temp order hearing, mediation attempt, parental investigation, custody evaluation, settlement conference, a few court continuations, etc) and she refused to cooperate the entire time, nearly two years, since the temp order was very favorable to her.  I arrived on Trial Day and was greeted with the news that she was finally ready to settle.  I found out later her lawyer had told her she couldn't delay the inevitable any longer.

[GaGrl]

Based on what ForeverDad experienced, perhaps your best move is to push for a temporary ruling that is equitable and even tilted in favor to you. That way, everything doesn't have to be settled, and you could talk to the children with arrangements in place.

[EyesUp]

Thanks all.

My stbx is apparently not terrified of court, at least not yet.  

She is heavily projecting her behavior on to me - she routinely accuses me of being a narcissist, and has actually put "get help for your NPD" in email.  I struggled with this, however my IC has stated unequivocally that I'm not a narc, and whatever narc attributes I may possess are of the normal variety.

My W seems to want a stage upon which to proclaim her victimhood and to attempt to smear/shame me.

So far, we have not been able to make much progress as we stall at custody - she wants majority physical custody.  We have yet to discuss support.

It seems unlikely that we'll agree to anything, and will need to go for temp orders.

I think that she is motivated by multiple things, and I'm not entirely certain what leverage is truly leverage because she is not being rational or fair in any way.

Money is certainly a factor.  She assumes that she will receive full CS.  In order to impute income, we need to go before the judge.  She won't agree to 50/50 custody, again need to go before the judge.  

It's possible that by putting together a settlement proposal, which includes debt, support, and custody, that she might begin to negotiate - but more likely her atty will rack up hours and lead us to the judge.

My atty proposed stipulations that did not address custody.  My feeling was that if I agreed to anything now, I would lose leverage to get a custody agreement, so I balked.

There were two 911 calls, both against my W, which did not result in a psych eval or arrest, but which point to a pattern of behavior and which she might wish to avoid having in the public record.  Same with certain aspects of her pattern of infidelity.

However I've been repeatedly advised not to point a finger, and instead to demonstrate that I'm superdad...   so it's unclear how or if to use this "evidence" in a productive way.

Interestingly, my atty thinks that my W's atty has not reviewed the police logs from the 911 calls.  

I also fear that bringing this information forward will make cohabitation even more difficult.

In the meantime, it's likely that we will speak with the kids in the next week or so.  So far, W has rejected any collaborative preparation or discussion of any kind and we still do not have anything like proper plans in place to address the kids' wellbeing or their concerns.

[EyesUp]

I could really use some practical advice re: how to respond to my W.  It is exhausting.

She sent an email:
"I may go away on Sunday afternoon/evening and come back on Monday. Not sure yet-- but if I can make this happen, I could ask my mom to take the girls overnight. She already has them Sunday afternoon."

Monday all three kids have school, and MIL lives ~10 miles away.  The kids have never stayed with MIL on a school night.  I responded:
"I'm glad to coordinate with your mom Sunday night and get the kids to school on Monday."

I don't really have a problem with the kids staying with my MIL occasionally, but this is slightly unusual and I'm trying to provide consistency and stability wherever possible.

W responds:
"I don’t know that I trust you to do any of that. Or maybe you will do it —but then have your lawyer accuse me of abandoning my kids.
I don’t know. I will let you know. I wish I could make one decision without needed to consult counsel for fear of your retribution."

To be clear, I am 100% taking the high road.  There has been no retribution, no accusation, no threat.  She is projecting, or something.

There is no basis for an abandonment claim over a night out, or in general.

She seems hyper sensitive to potential claims of unfitness.  While I do have reservations about her judgment, and there are demonstrable patterns of behavior that would raise questions in a custody hearing, this has not been a drugs/violence/criminal activity type situation.  It's emotional/financial/fidelity issues common in a PD situation. I recognize the pitfalls of going down this rabbit hole in family court, and hope to avoid GALs, psych evals, etc. etc. if only to spare our kids a protracted conflict. Not to mention cost - I'm already stretched to the limit.

So - How to respond? 

I am constantly accused of lies, threats, abuse, etc.  All false.  I am tiptoeing in the house while trying to create some space to come to an agreement or understanding re: custody, support, etc., so we can sell the house, stop cohab'ing, and move forward.

There are some messages that I let go unanswered, and others where I try to neutralize negative assumptions or false accusations by using some of the skills I've learned here - a mix of validation and BIFF statements.

But for some reason, I am jammed on this one re: abandonment/MIL time.

For an added twist, I'm sure that she's seeing someone - so the whole thing may be a smokescreen so she can hookup.  I have not confronted her about she's doing, we're way past intimacy and definitely moving toward D. 

[kells76]

It shouldn't surprise me any more how some pwPD's "accidentally tell the truth" via oversharing, blame, deflection, and projection.

It's like they can't stop sharing details when they really, really should.

Amazing how SHE is the one going away -- and she doesn't even know for how long!, but somehow YOU'RE not to be trusted with getting the kids to school at a set time on Monday.

Yeah, all kinds of stuff going on with her.

Your original reply was great, that is exactly the mindset you need for success. No argument, just BIFF problem solving. Really good.

So, what to do with her "you're not trustworthy, your L is just going to accuse me of stuff, I'm afraid of you" message?

One good option is not responding. Not a lot to be validated in there.

That might mean that you coordinate the schedule independently with your MIL, so a lot would depend on the relationship you have with her.

You've already informed W that you are happy to coordinate with MIL, so it "shouldn't" be a surprise when you do. Somehow, it still will be to W, but you've already got your plan documented.

There is really nothing to engage with in her second email. If it were me, I would not respond, and then I'd proceed to coordinate with MIL directly... as long as that relationship is OK enough to do that.

[ForeverDad]

So, what to do with her "you're not trustworthy, your L is just going to accuse me of stuff, I'm afraid of you" message?

One good option is not responding. Not a lot to be validated in there.

In the years to come there will be occasional "who will parent when I can't" events.  Have you two discussed what sort of give-and-take to handle that?  As in, "This time it's when you are gone on your parenting time and can't parent, next time is might be me who has that circumstance."  At some point that may need to be addressed, though perhaps not yet, especially if other aspects of parenting are still up in the air.

This gets into ROFR territory, Right of First Refusal.  This is where, under specified circumstances, one parent have to offer the other parent his/her affected slice of parenting time before asking others.  Some parents here decided it was best not to have that clause in a parenting order, for other family dynamics it is a must to have an appropriate version to ensure your ex doesn't bulldozer you all the time.

I had a limited ROFR early in my legal struggles when my son was young but I dropped it a few years later when it became disadvantageous.

[EyesUp]

Kells, FDad, thanks again.

re: MIL - my W approached me to follow up today, so there was a verbal exchange about this.  I simply said, "it's in everyone's best interest, especially the kids, to normalize some cooperation between me and MIL" to which my W said "I agree" and then "but I need to talk to my atty because I'm afraid you're going to stab me in the back" and then "I might not even go, or I might just go for the afternoon, I don't know yet" - I didn't respond.  Let's see what she comes back with.

re: first rights - my W wants majority physical custody.  I'm pushing for 50/50.  At one point, she said she wanted first right of refusal, and wanted other assurances - but when we got to our first 4-way with attys, she backpedaled and said she would not discuss 50/50.  I hear you re: pros and cons on this.

[EyesUp]

The main thing that's come into focus over the past few weeks is that my stbx has been laying the groundwork for an alienation campaign for some time, and like most other aspects of our relationship I have attempted to stay above the fray, avoid, ignore, and in the process I've unwittingly allowed the process to unfold.

If I'm seeing things clearly (a big "if"), I am bonded to the kids, they often come to me for support, and they would be sad if I was not in their lives.  However with news of D on the horizon, I anticipate that my stbx could weaponize them in several ways and do a lot of damage in the process. 

This past weekend, I heard a chilling story of a father who voluntarily gave up access to his kids in order to avoid putting them in the middle - even though there was a clear GAL reco to intervene against his W.  I imagine that this was an extreme case, but it was eye opening.

I have always been involved with my kids.  In my case, this is not an example of sudden onset of super-dad-ness due to imminent D.  I know the pediatrician.  I know the teachers.  I've been to the workshares and parent teacher conferences, the school picnics and festivals and performances.  I've been the regular parent at swim, gymnastics, and dance classes. I make breakfast, do drop offs and pickups, and read stories at bedtime.  I could go on.

Yet I find myself in a custody battle, and I expect that my stbx will continue to make bad choices that she attributes to me.  e.g., she will tell the that I'm always angry, that I don't give her any money, that I won't pay for dance or other activities, that I'm mean to the dog, etc. etc.

I've read a bit about alienation - a lot of the lit is about attempts to recover after the damage is done.  I think I'm in a somewhat earlier position where there might be a chance to mitigate - but I haven't found much on this. 

Any thoughts on this?

I should note:  stbx still refuses to collaborate in way in regard to planning for how to tell the kids, but the news is likely to come before the end of July. 

[worriedStepmom]

Validation and active listening.

SD was 4 when I met H.  Most of her uBPDmom's alienation was focused on me.

Every time we were alone, SD would say "Mama said <something negative about me>."  I only asked "How did that make you feel?/What do you think about that?"  If she answered, I'd validate her feelings.  If she said she didn't know, I'd ask more questions or take a guess - "Wow, I think if I heard that I'd be angry/upset/disappointed/scared/confused". Part of this was to help her learn how to name her emotions.

Sometimes, after we talked about the feelings, I'd ask if she wanted to know what I thought.

I never, ever badmouthed her mom.  I did say sometimes that "I think Mama might be confused."

I also did my best to be trustworthy to SD.

After two years, she stopped making those comments to me.  She had decided to trust me and not her mom.

[EyesUp]

Thanks, WMom.

How did you develop this skill? 

I'm living in a Seinfeld episode of inconsequential moments that are elevated to high drama. 

My response has generally been to not respond - it's my default mode.  As a result, I've unintentionally tolerated behavior that I now think I should have managed differently.  How?  I'm not sure.

Examples:

1)
STBX is stressed and didn't buy groceries, there's nothing for dinner, asks if I will order pizza for the kids.  OK.
I place our standard order, which includes STBX's preferred bbq chicken.
Upon serving, STBX makes a big show of a stray bit of onion on her first slice. "I can't eat this! What did you order?  Didn't you get the one I like?"
Our oldest rushes to mom, "it's ok mommy, you can have my piece!"
I also offer a different slice from the box, which does not have onion. 
STBX, acting distraught, will not eat or accept comfort, which makes our oldest try harder.  STBX plays it to the hilt, and orders a salad, which she needs to leave to go pickup.
Along the way, it's implied that I intentionally botched the order, or otherwise arranged for a feral slice of onion to invade STBX's slice in order to upset her.

2)
STBX will not discipline the dog, which has developed the habit of jumping up on the counter in the kitchen.  It's a large dog.  I often tell the dog "down" or "no" and I will remove the dog from the counter, if needed.  The dog has generally learned not to do this when I am in the kitchen, but he will resume the unwanted behavior when STBX is present because she basically rewards it. She has a way of patting him, nuzzling him, giving him some positive attention as she ever so passively nudges him away from the counter - of course he jumps right back.  Recently, I told the dog "no!" and was reprimanded by STBX for being angry, and she added - in front of our youngest - "your friend's dad doesn't yell at their dog".  Of course the next day, I'm walking the dog with my youngest and when the dog pulls I say "heel!" and my daughter says "why are you angry with the dog?"
So I asked her, "why do you think I'm angry?"
And she responded "because you use your mean voice" and adds "that's not what my friend's dad does".
Now I'm aware that she's parroting her mother, so I simply ask her if it's ok for the dog to pull?  and if she'd like to help me teach the dog not to pull?  and we get on to relatively healthy communication.  Nonetheless, I'm certain that the main thing that will stick with her is the idea that dad yells at the dog, and that STBX will find a way to highlight this down the road as animal abuse or worse, with the kids as witnesses.

3)
I once retrieved a bag of tortillas to finish off the last bit of guacamole once everyone else was done.  STBX loudly comments "I did not serve those chips!  What's wrong with how I served the guacamole?  That is so obnoxious of you" - and again, my oldest comes quickly to mom's side and says "yes, dad.  Why did you take out the chips?"  So I simply folded the bag and put it away, and later asked my oldest if she was really upset about this - and she reiterated what her mother said. Never mind the fact that we regularly self-serve drinks, condiments, etc., at mealtimes. I didn't persist.

My main observation is that the most minor behavior can be recast as offensive, in realtime, with a live audience.  It's actively happening, and I have no doubt that it's been happening longer than I knew, and that it will escalate.

I hesitate to even describe these interactions, because there are people dealing with actual DV and far worse situations.  Nonetheless, I feel like I'm being cast as a villain, day by day.  If I stand my ground or attempt to discuss, I'm a big, scary, angry man.  If I capitulate, I enable the pattern to continue.  1:1 discussions with kids after the fact seem less than impactful.  Validating STBX only reinforcing what the kids are already learning about catering to their mother's moods and often irrational behavior.  Not validating STBX leads her to behave as if I am threatening her, somehow.

I've read a bit about the victim behavior, and how it elicits sympathy and how it can weaponize the kids - It's chilling.  What I have not found, or perhaps not yet digested, is how to mitigate this pattern -- other than being the best dad I can be, to maintain the bond with my kids.

I accept that I can't change the wind, so how do I trim the sails in these conditions?

[worriedStepmom]

My therapist helped me a lot.  I am a pleaser, and I had to learn what is in my zone of control versus what is not, and to stop mindreading and rescuing.  (This s*&! is hard, btw.) 

I'm not an expert by any means.

1)
STBX is stressed and didn't buy groceries, there's nothing for dinner, asks if I will order pizza for the kids.  OK.
I place our standard order, which includes STBX's preferred bbq chicken.
Upon serving, STBX makes a big show of a stray bit of onion on her first slice. "I can't eat this! What did you order?  Didn't you get the one I like?"
Our oldest rushes to mom, "it's ok mommy, you can have my piece!"
I also offer a different slice from the box, which does not have onion. 
STBX, acting distraught, will not eat or accept comfort, which makes our oldest try harder.  STBX plays it to the hilt, and orders a salad, which she needs to leave to go pickup.
Along the way, it's implied that I intentionally botched the order, or otherwise arranged for a feral slice of onion to invade STBX's slice in order to upset her.

Your oldest is a rescuer too.  I think next time you might model a way to empathize without rescuing.  "STBX, I'm sorry you don't like the pizza that I ordered.  I won't be offended if you decide to eat something else." *

You aren't offering a solution - it isn't your job (or kiddo's) to fix this for her.   You also aren't buying into the blame game.

*My S12 is a picky eater, and this is how we've handled it since he was 3 and learned how to make his own PBJ sandwich.

2)  Recently, I told the dog "no!" and was reprimanded by STBX for being angry, and she added - in front of our youngest - "your friend's dad doesn't yell at their dog".  Of course the next day, I'm walking the dog with my youngest and when the dog pulls I say "heel!" and my daughter says "why are you angry with the dog?"
So I asked her, "why do you think I'm angry?"
And she responded "because you use your mean voice" and adds "that's not what my friend's dad does".
Now I'm aware that she's parroting her mother, so I simply ask her if it's ok for the dog to pull?  and if she'd like to help me teach the dog not to pull?  and we get on to relatively healthy communication.  Nonetheless, I'm certain that the main thing that will stick with her is the idea that dad yells at the dog, and that STBX will find a way to highlight this down the road as animal abuse or worse, with the kids as witnesses.

I think you started out great by asking her why she thought you were angry!
From there, I might have said, "Hmm, I have a mean voice?   I didn't know that!  What does it sound like?"  [Optional - display several scary/silly voices and ask if those are the mean voice]

"Have I ever used that voice with you or you sibling?/When else do I use it? "  [Trying to find out if this is solely about the dog]

"How does it make you feel when I use that voice?"  (if neutral, then "Darn it, I must need to practice to make it a really scary voice then.")

"What does your friend's dad do when their dog is misbehaving? Maybe I can learn something!"   or, as you tried, ask her to help you figure out a better way to stop the dog from pulling.

3)
I once retrieved a bag of tortillas to finish off the last bit of guacamole once everyone else was done.  STBX loudly comments "I did not serve those chips!  What's wrong with how I served the guacamole?  That is so obnoxious of you" - and again, my oldest comes quickly to mom's side and says "yes, dad.  Why did you take out the chips?"  So I simply folded the bag and put it away, and later asked my oldest if she was really upset about this - and she reiterated what her mother said. Never mind the fact that we regularly self-serve drinks, condiments, etc., at mealtimes. I didn't persist.

"Huh.  I thought we always serve ourselves.  I didn't realize it would offend you."  and I would KEEP EATING THE CHIPS.

And when oldest interfered, a quiet, "Sweetie, is it your place to get in the middle of grown-up discussions?"

My main observation is that the most minor behavior can be recast as offensive, in realtime, with a live audience.  It's actively happening, and I have no doubt that it's been happening longer than I knew, and that it will escalate.

Yup.

Defuse with humor.
Don't JADE.
Put the responsibility for irrational behavior back on STBX - pointing out that she is having a fit over stuff that is normal and then drop it.

Right now, the kids have to take mom's side because it is dangerous not to.  Once you are living separately, hopefully that will give them some freedom.  You are going to have work really hard to get oldest out of the habit of trying to police everyone to keep mom happy.  It took a lot of therapy and years for us to get SD to mostly drop that.

[EyesUp]

Thanks again, WMom.

Any thoughts about communication w/STBX on this?

Is there any benefit to pointing out the pattern directly to her?

e.g., an email such as "We don't know how friends discipline their dog in private, vs. when guests are present.  We do know that we need to work on our dog's behavior, so any suggestions you have are welcome."

Or just ignore, as usual?

I am mindful that documentation could become important, although I do find these relatively minor interactions to seem petty - even as I worry about how the pattern will manifest in less petty ways on the horizon.

In regard to "keep eating the chips" - I would definitely do that if it was just me and STBX.  However in front of the kids, my instinct is to avoid modeling behavior that could be interpreted as overtly disrespectful/selfish.  I appreciate that boundaries are selfish, so I'm generally trying to strike a balance. I don't want the kids to think it's ok to simply disregard someone else. I feel like this comes up frequently.

I know everyone is different, but I wish there was more to learn about how these behaviors evolve (or maybe they don't?).  I realize I'm facing a long haul, and I'm probably still hoping that I can somehow mitigate the worst, when in fact it's yet to come and likely unavoidable:  She will alienate the kids, and then at some point disregulate/collapse and cause further damage. 

She's late 40s. I expect that some of her behavior might change as she progresses through natural cycles over the next few years.  What should I expect?  What does the combination of a PD at menopause with three girls entering adolescence look like?

[worriedStepmom]

There is no benefit in pointing this out to her.  You can document it in your own private journal.

There is a balance between being disrespectful and catering to someone else's disrespect.  Right now, you are showing the girls that their mom is right and should be obeyed, regardless of how disrespectful or irrational she is.  That's not healthy either.  There's a way to stick to your own boundaries and sense of what is appropriate without being rude. It may take practice and a lot of self-examination to figure out where your line is.

It's possible your W will do better when you are in separate homes - my SD's mom was very triggered by her parents (whom she lived with), and her behavior improved when she moved out again.  SD's mom was also VERY triggered when SD started learning and practicing boundaries.  We've been through several cycles where things got better and then got very  bad (multiple hospitalizations) and now she's getting better again.

[EyesUp]

Thanks to all who have followed along and also provided input.  It's been helpful and appreciated.

I have a few updates, and once again I could use some advice.

stbx sent an email: "I'm moving out at the end of next month and I'm taking the kids".

This was not unexpected, and we finally told the kids earlier this week.  stbx's surprisingly chipper attitude helped offset what I expected to be difficult, but of course it was still difficult.  

She declined to agree to speaking points ahead of time, until her atty supervised, and then she deviated from the agreed points (It's not your fault, You'll have two homes, Both mom and dad love you, etc.) by stating that our current house will be sold (instant tears from 3 kids).  

I immediately set the story straight and told the kids that mom and dad do not agree on how to handle everything, the house will not be immediately sold, and that we'll need a judge to help us decide what to do - and that no matter what, they will always have a home with me and with mom, even if I eventually do get a new house someday.

The oldest immediately withdrew from me. Whenever mom is angry, the oldest protects mom and assumes I did something wrong to anger mom. Avoiding mom's anger is understandably high on her priority list. The younger two had a lot of questions for me - which, as painful as this is, is somewhat good to see - that they trust me, confide in me, and come to me for comfort.

Looking forward, I believe stbx thinks she's simply taking whatever she wants from the house with her move.

We have not had a hearing yet - and no date has been set. No temp orders. Everything is backed up. 

My atty proposed to go for a speedy hearing prior to the move in order to get some temp orders with emphasis on parenting time. Legal bills are stacking up and we're still just getting started. I'm somewhat relieved that the kids know - no more hiding, no more secrets - but there is so much uncertainty ahead.

Not surprisingly, since sharing her plans, stbx is increasingly hostile and overtly confrontational - in front of the kids and in our direct communications. The conflict patterns have never been more clear.

I'm pretty good at not getting sucked in or being reactive to emotional attacks, but I fear that this still plays out as "dad is the bad guy" because mom is upset... And I'm concerned that I am reactive in terms of managing the D/parenting time legal process. I need to figure out how to get in front of this.

[kells76]

stbx sent an email: "I'm moving out at the end of next month and I'm taking the kids".

Has your L made any recommendations about if/how to respond to this?

First thought for a reply is (just to get an email trail):

"I do not agree with you taking the kids. [They will stay in this house until there is an official parenting plan in place.] I agree that you are free to move wherever works for you."

Not sure about including middle chunk or not.

It might be worth getting your instant disagreement documented, both to get it on paper and to eliminate any argument of "you never said you weren't OK with it".

...

I think that sometimes pwBPD believe that "if they said it, then it's real". So there could be an aspect of "now that I've announced it, it is real and everyone must treat it as real" coming from her.

If I'm recalling correctly, she has never said in an email or recorded conversation anything like "you can have the kids" or "I'll just move out on my own"?

[GaGrl]

I agree with Kells that you need documentation of your position sent to her quickly. Also, your lawyer needs to get a temp order hearing scheduled ASAP. And as ForeverDad tells everyone at this stage of a divorce, this is where you put all effort toward the best temp order possible -- because temp orders rarely change, and this divorce could take several years to finalize.

If your STBX wants to move out, you can encourage her to do so -- but not until there are temp orders on custody, sharing of time with the children,came property that can or can't be removed from the house. Are you thinking that she assumes she will be taking, for example, bedroom furniture for three children's bedrooms plus her own? That doesn't make sense if you are going to have them 50% of the time.

[EyesUp]

>> I think that sometimes pwBPD believe that "if they said it, then it's real". So there could be an aspect of "now that I've announced it, it is real and everyone must treat it as real" coming from her.

100% this.

No, she has never said anything about leaving the kids - just the opposite:
- she wants majority parenting time
- no specific proposal
- unwilling to engage a mediator
- highly sensitive to "unfit" claims, although I've never used this language - it comes from her
- multiple suicide threats, and related comments, e.g., "you just want me dead so you can have the kids to yourself" (projection, I know)

@GG, Yes, I need to respond.  My atty is MIA and provides almost no guidance.  I need to figure this out on my own. I wish there was a guide to high-conflict attys in my county...  I think I need to make a change, but I've already interviewed > 20 attys.

Bill Eddy says that PD'd participants are known to change attys, so here I am second guessing myself - am I the crazy one?

Thanks, both, for input.

[ForeverDad]

If you can sincerely and reasonably ask yourself, "Am I the crazy one?" then you're not.  In a manner of speaking she's not quite crazy either.  (Not in the looney tunes way.)  She may be relationship dysfunctional, entitled, manipulative, and a host of other extremes but odds are she will never be institutionalized.  Court and other professionals may deal with her cautiously and with kid gloves but just because she has her mindset doesn't mean you can't have your own mindset too.

Think... irresistible force versus the immovable wall?  Ponder how your boundaries learned here - see 1.07 & 1.08 can enable you to deal with her extreme perceptions and perspectives as the separation begins and the divorce proceeds.

I learned a couple things at the beginning of my divorce.  (1) Without a temp order in place you can't force your spouse to behave.  Mine decided to block my parenting and not only were the police unhelpful (telling me to get a court temp order before saying they'd intervene) they also admitted that if I went to see my kid they'd come rushing to protect her.  I didn't want her to get me arrested so I stayed away from her and waiting on the court hearing.  (2) When finally in court the magistrate confirmed she had been blocking my contact with our preschooler but the magistrate took it in stride as no big deal and simply dictated a temp order rewarding her with temp custody and for me alternate weekends.  No makeup time for me and not even a finger wagging at her for what she did.  That's about the time my lawyer informed me courts expect conflict and ignore all but the more serious violations, expecting the emotions will calm once the divorce is final.

Some states are starting dad's with equal time but whether yours will or not may also depend on you using that brief divorce temp order hearing - mine was about a half hour - to present enough information that yours is not the typical divorce case with little squabbles.

It seems your spouse has the belief that she gets to decide how the divorce will occur.  Entitled.  Ultimatums.  Demands.  Around here, that's predictable.  That's where having time-tested strategies will aid you.  You may lose a few skirmishes along the way but others you will win and the war for your parenting is not hers to decide.

[EyesUp]

Thanks again, Kells, GG, FDad.

I'm afraid that I missed the chance to register "instant" disagreement - stbx has written several times that "the kids will have a home with me" and I generally have not responded directly with JADE in mind.

However she has also acknowledged that they will have two homes - including in talking points cc:d to her own atty.

However things are escalating, and my atty is low on advice/strategy.

I went ahead and sent a short note to register my view - that I support stbx's move, but that the kids should remain in their home until TOs are in place - and I received 3 responses over a short period of time, and a 4th about :30 mins later, in which her entitlement and rage is apparent.

Documentation isn't the issue, it's how to prepare it / present it in what will be a short preliminary hearing. I feel like my task is make the best movie trailer possible - a 30-60 second preview of what lies ahead in this case. However the courts are backed up, everything is still remote. I am going for a speedy hearing for TOs, I have work to do to prep. 

In parallel, the kids are being weaponized. I truly appreciate the support here, but I do feel isolated and wish I could identify local resources to help navigate at least part of the minefield. 

[EyesUp]

We agreed weeks ago to a schedule for August in which my stbx would have two weekends and I would have two weekends with the kids.  We'd each use this time for "vacation" meaning day trips or short overnight trips, maybe 2 nights.

In the meantime, my stbx has spent many nights and weekends out of the house.  I've been home with the kids throughout, except for a few days they have spent with my MIL.

Fast forward, here we are, now the kids know about the D, know about mom's plan to move and that they will have two houses, etc.

My oldest is anxious about a trip with me this coming weekend.  It was originally for 3 nights, but I told her that it could be just for 2 nights.  stbx has been quick to suggest that I not "force" her to go, and that she can stay home if she wants to.

I don't want to capitulate, don't want to split up the kids, don't want to set a precedent.  I *do* want to help my daughter overcome anxiety, adjust to changes (this will take a lot of time), and maintain/develop trust.

I'm having a hard time navigating through normal 13yo daughter behavior vs. anxiety vs. anxiety associated with the separation vs. what may be an unhealthy alliance w/stbx.

The 2 younger kids (d6/d10) are excited about the trip, and open with me about their feelings about what's happening, and in general - we're very close, and I have a sense that they trust me about certain things and confide in me, so far the perceived barrier is only with the oldest.

My questions are:
We're supposed to leave this Friday.  How to navigate the week to make sure d13 is comfortable to go, and I'm not undermined by stbx along the week.  I'm particularly concerned that if I agree to let d13 stay home, that will be disappointing if not concerning to the younger two.

[kells76]

As hard as it may be, if you start now with "well, I guess you don't have to go if you REALLY don't want to", then you are setting up a dynamic where your 13YO "drives the car" on spending time with either parent, and unfortunately, especially you. Mom will clue in to this vibe and abuse it to no end. Even though it's coming from a place of love and care for your D13, once you open that door, you can't close it, and you will lose time with your D more and more. Mom will tacitly find ways to "check if D13 REALLY wants to go with you today" and "of course D13 can go if she wants" and "Mom will just make sure that D13 is really, really sure she wants to spend time with you, and it's OK either way". Note that she won't be saying "I don't want D13 to go, and I'm telling D13 not to go with you". It's an abusive setup where D13 will know, tacitly, that it ISN'T OK for her to go with you because she'll be emotionally punished by Mom, and Mom has plausible deniability because "I never told D13 she couldn't go... I just listened to her feelings... I support D13 being in touch with how she feels..."

I cannot recommend strongly enough that you all go on the trip together. Nip this in the bud now or unfortunately it will set a precedent that is impossible to escape. Yes, it may be difficult and uncomfortable. Find a way to make it through the moment, get all 3 kids in the car, and leave.

Be really, really, really careful about trimming nights to make an anxious kid happy. If Mom hears about it, and she will, then she will start "empowering" the kids to tell you "I only want 2 nights... I only want 1 night... I don't want to spend the night".

I *do* want to help my daughter overcome anxiety, adjust to changes (this will take a lot of time), and maintain/develop trust.

This means going on the trip together, and helping her build her toolkit of things she can do when she's in a situation she'd maybe rather not be in. Being allowed to avoid the situation and/or having adult-level say in whether it happens or not -- these aren't realistic tools for a 13YO. It's more like -- OK, here we are on the trip, and you're feeling homesick. What are some caring things you can do for yourself while we're here? Want to sit in the hot tub? Can you text your friend and chat for a while? How about you take a phone with you and walk down to the corner store and pick up some ice cream? Can you choose some movies for a movie marathon?

Giving her a little more leeway with stuff on the trip than you'd normally give her at home makes sense. OK, at home we don't chat online with friends for 2 hours at a time, but I'm OK with letting you do that on this trip for some support, and I'm so glad you have a friend who cares about you so much. At home, we don't watch 4 hours of movies at once, but we can relax on this trip and do some caring stuff for ourselves that looks a little different.

STBX is already weaponizing the "forcing the kids" narrative. It needs to be stopped now or else it is going to get very, very out of control. The sooner you can move forward with taking all 3 kids on the trip and having a good time, the less weight those accusations from stbx will have. The longer you "try to be caring" by giving in on days/nights, the more weight you give to those accusations from her, and the more the kids will believe that maybe you are forcing them to do things.

She's trying to paint normal parenting choices as "forcing the kids". This is really dangerous.

Remind me if the kids have a counselor?

[kells76]

In terms of "normal" teen stuff, keep in the back of your head that she could be dealing with her period. Unfortunately in our situation, the kids' mom used that information for her own sense of power instead of to care about the kids (especially oldest SD who was 12.5 at the time). Mom never told us that SD12.5 had started her period and so when I figured it out on my own, and texted Mom "hey, did you know SD12.5 started her period? Just FYI" Mom came back with "of course I knew, but SD12.5 told me she didn't want to tell you or Dad about it, so I respected that, and I sent supplies with her". It was all framed as Mom being nurturing, caring, respectful, and trustworthy, but what it really was was Mom sacrificing SD12.5's sense of security and preparedness so that Mom could be "the only caring one, the only trusted one, the only one who could take care of SD12.5". Really, really sick stuff.

So figure out what kinds of pads or supplies your D is using (if she has started) and pick up some to bring along, in some kind of cute zip bag/cover so it's not just a tampon box out in the open (she may still be sensitive/shy about it). Even if she hasn't started, she may have some anxiety or apprehension about starting away from home, so in that case make your best guess about pads at the store (try teen-oriented brands/small sizes) and casually let her know you're bringing supplies ("OK, I'll pack some of the bathroom bag... you make sure to put your toothbrush in... I'll add toothpaste, hand sanitizer, pads, and floss... it'll all be in this bag just so you know").

Also, on the trip, she may have some anxiety about swimming or seem swimming-resistant, if she's on her period or thinks she may start. Your younger D's might not understand, so if D13 is ever like "I just don't feel like swimming", it could help her if instead of asking "Why not, you love swimming, can't you just have fun in the pool", you're like "No big deal, so glad you checked in with yourself to see what you were up for, I'll sit on the edge of the hot tub with you if you wanna just chill and put your feet in". And let your younger D's know: "Sometimes people want to swim, and sometimes they don't. It's great D13 knew what she wanted to do."

Anyway, just some more food for thought -- we've been there, as the girls are 13 and 15 now.