Experience with in-home separation / D w/kids

[kells76]

And just to add a third thing.

This is brutal stuff. It's really, really challenging, and it hurts. We have been exactly where you are at. You love your kids, and you want to care about them, and help them. When the other parent twists your love and care into control and "forcing" and makes it a lose-lose, that's abusive and cruel.

Coming up with a plan ahead of time, with concrete "if-then" steps, can help you make it through those incredibly difficult moments.

We took the kids on an international trip a few months ago. What DH and I had to do in the week or so leading up to it was radically accept that if we got to the front door at Mom's house, and Mom answers the door and says "SD15 doesn't want to go", then we agreed ahead of time we would talk to SD15 and say "We're so sad you're not coming with us. We'll miss you and see you when we get back". We had to be ready for the worst case scenario with a specific plan, so that if we got there, Mom couldn't power-play us. She gets off on having DH be desperate to see the kids and the kids saying No, I don't want to go. And she does it without ever telling the kids "I don't want you to see Dad". It's that subtle alienation where an environment is created where the kids know what they need to do to keep Mom happy, and Mom has plausible deniability.

(note, both kids ended up coming with us, SD15 did have roller coaster emotions and a poor, ungrateful attitude for the first few days. But they were both there over Mom's repeated statements that "she didn't want them to go")

While I'm emphatically NOT recommending that specific step (accept the kids not going) for you where you're at (my gut feeling is you need to make sure all your kids go on this trip), the overall point is -- you will need to plan ahead of time dealing with your stbx's manipulations.

The more we game out in advance what to do at those "front door" moments, the more we are able to keep our cool and be responsive and flexible instead of reactive and frozen. That's going to be key for you -- plan out at least 3 possible scenarios and work through, step by step, how you can be warm and caring with your D's without freezing, reacting, arguing, etc. pwBPD thrive on "must decide now", high-pressure, win-lose or lose-lose scenarios. Help yourself not get caught off guard. Yes, it's hard thinking ahead to really difficult, high-emotion situations. Can you get support in that? Who can you work with to plan out your "if... then..." moves? We are here if you need us.

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I know all that has been pretty general. One specific I can think of is -- I wonder if there's any way to talk with your D13 (or even all 3 kids together) ahead of time about leaving for the trip. Something like -- does everyone have what they need to take care of themselves on the trip? stuffed animals? anyone who needs music to listen to, do you have that set up? If D13 comes back with "I'm not going, I don't want to go, you can't force me"... be aware that you might want to react with an argument/JADE, or with appeasement. It will feel uncomfortable and you may want to get rid of the uncomfortable feeling by either trying to convince D13 that she has to go, or appeasing her (aka appeasing Mom) by making more concessions. Instead, consider taking a stance of openness -- "Tell me more... tell me all about it... what else do you want me to know...what would the negatives be... what would the positives be... how do you think you would feel if that happened... I wonder if there's more you want to talk about..." repeat, repeat, repeat. This helps provide a place for her to vent, and buys you time. you don't have to decide right then, and if there's pressure of "You have to tell me now that I don't have to go", come back with: "This sounds really important to you... do I have that right? Honey, what's important to you is important to me, and it deserves my best thinking... I'm going to just take in what you've shared with me for a while... I wouldn't want to rush something so important to you..."

Anyway, that's an example of gaming out a possibility for how things go. You come up with some "worse" directions things could go, and you get solid in your head, beforehand, validation statements, temperature-lowering moves, and ways for you to not get backed into a corner. Knowing those moves/phrases ahead of time can help you keep cool, grounded, and not reactive/frozen if conflict comes up.

[EyesUp]

Kells, thank you. 

This is super helpful.

> STBX is already weaponizing the "forcing the kids" narrative.
100% yes.

I really like your idea about talking to the kids about the trip together - I will have time with the older two together tomorrow. The youngest is fine and will follow the older two.

You asked about counseling...  D13 sees a relatively young LICSW and they seem to be doing well.  STBX did not mention the D in the intake, yet also described me as her ex-husband in a billing email with the clinic.  This opened the door for me to call and introduce myself to D13's counselor - my agenda was simply to ask how I can best support D13.

Fast forward to this week, STBX has proposed for D10 to join D13's session this week "to listen in", and now added "could be good to talk about the trip" - which might mean that STBX intends to join the session (without me present) and influencing both D13 and D10.  I'm not inclined to call the counselor in advance for fear of seeming manipulative, but there is an option to call - the appointment is late Wednesday.

I see the danger of precedents and slippery slopes, and I'm super concerned.

Your "normal teen stuff" comments are prescient, as D13 uncharacteristically skipped a trip to the lake on Sunday - I think you may have identified why. I'm embarrassed it had not occurred to me. Worth knowing either way.

As for the game plan... I've already laid out a few things I know D13 likes:
- good food, trying new restaurants (including visiting one she enjoyed before)
- making a playlist for the drive
- bringing some games, activities we all enjoy

The nuclear option which I have not yet proposed (and hate to introduce) is the outright bribe - shopping.  We're going to a place that has *great* shops, and she's always looking for another hoodie...  I almost always say no to shopping requests, but I could let her know that it's on the menu.  It's an equally slippery slope, and likely just as bad a precedent in the other direction.

Thanks for the JADE alternatives, that's just what I need - although D13 is quickly developing antibodies to this: "Why are you interrogating me?" and "I just want some time to myself" - with a lot of force.  I respond calmly, but with appropriate concern and try not to push too hard.  I'm sure this is also reported back to STBX in some way.  Ironically, the bullying tactics that my STBX has often deployed are being rapidly transferred to D13...  I've neutralized them once or twice, so I know she is still reachable.  e.g., one time D13 told me that I hate the dog (one of STBX's talking points).  A short while later, when D13 yelled at the dog, I pointed out that I know that she doesn't hate the dog, and that sometimes I feel the same way when the dog doesn't listen - it can frustrating. She looked like a lightbulb went off - big eyes - affirmative nodding. 

[ForeverDad]

kells76 came on strong but she's right.  The policies you set in place will either support you or enable others to sabotage you.  You can't start gifting away your time with the kids or the sabotaging parent will feel enticed, enabled and empowered to assault your parenting boundaries.

As for the therapy.  Actually it is good for the kids to have counseling and courts love counseling.  You should be glad too... as long as the counselor isn't gullible to everything the other parent slickly manipulates.

Be aware that though you can't stop the other parent from contacting or sitting in on part of the sessions, just as she can't stop you from doing so either.  You have just as much right as she does.  Are you able to take the kids in for sessions too?  Then you can start each visit with a few minutes for an overview of background and concerns before the kids start their session.

I recall that my then-spouse started counseling for our then 3 year old as soon as we separated, the temp order gifted her temp custody so she was able to block me from access or input for the first year or so.  She was using the sessions to develop negative advocates for her to claim I was a bad dad, sight unseen.  Finally once we had the final decree we alternated bringing my son to the sessions and every session started with a brief counselor-parent discussion, then the rest of the session was counselor-patient, the parent waited out in the lobby.  If anything came up that concerned the counselor then she'd speak with me for a couple minutes about it afterward.

I think some of it was play therapy due to his age.  For example, one time she remarked to me that they had discussed whose private parts (what a bathing suit covers) he could touch.  He had answered, my mother's.  The counselor made sure I knew she'd reviewed it with him.

[kells76]

A thought on dealing with D13's "Why are you interrogating me... I just want time to myself" statements:

She may be unskillfully sharing that she's getting overwhelmed, and does really need to come back to baseline. I'd recommend reading pages 20-23 of Childress' "Ju-Jitsu Parenting" article, on "The Tap-Out", to learn some strategies for how to make those moments positive for your relationship with her.

https://drcachildress.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Ju-jitsu-Parenting-Fighting-Back-from-the-Down-Position-Childress-2013.pdf

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I agree with FD, find a way to also be involved with D13's counselor. Is she going in person, or is this remote?

...

This is the HARDEST stuff, and you're in the thick of it. You're giving it your all, we see that, and you're open to learning and trying new ways with your kids. Please give yourself some credit for the massive amount of energy, effort, and love you're investing in your kids in a really difficult time. Keep going step by step and one day at a time. Find some way to relax tonight, too, even if it's "just" a nice can of soda or a dumb cat video online. Give yourself that break for a little bit.

[EyesUp]

I've read and re-read Childress about a dozen times this month.  It's been a huge help, and your earlier comments echo the concepts perfectly.  Thanks again.

D13's counselor is, amazingly, in-person.

When D13 started counseling, stbx and I agreed to alternate taking her, but so far it has not worked out. 

A small update I'm digesting: Last night, stbx proactively said that she spoke with her "sources"  (likely her therapist, possibly D13's counselor), and was advised to avoid forcing a screaming kid to get in a car, but also to avoid getting to that situation in the first place. Of course there was no specific comment, proposal, or action item, and I feel like it was possibly a lip service trap.  However I have a bit of time with D13 between now and Friday when we depart, which I plan to use to engage her in planning the trip.

Sidenote, I did ask stbx if D13 has had her period - no.  She might be anxious about this happening when she's away / not with mom.

[kells76]

D13's counselor is, amazingly, in-person.

SO glad to hear that! It makes a big difference.

When D13 started counseling, stbx and I agreed to alternate taking her, but so far it has not worked out.

Does the C know that that was the agreement? I'm assuming the C sees who brings D13?

A small update I'm digesting: Last night, stbx proactively said that she spoke with her "sources"  (likely her therapist, possibly D13's counselor), and was advised to avoid forcing a screaming kid to get in a car, but also to avoid getting to that situation in the first place. Of course there was no specific comment, proposal, or action item, and I feel like it was possibly a lip service trap.

She can say a lot of things, and she can say any number of people told her stuff. We are wired to believe what people tell us; unfortunately with BPD that can bite us.

Her using the word "forcing" suggests to me that nobody told her that. I think she's making it up or, at best, reinterpreting something.

This is your stbx coming up with a reason for D13 to not go on the trip. If stbx can induce D13 to that state when it's time for you to go, then she's going to point right back at this and be like "Well, I told you what all the professionals said, and now I'm the good mom for following their directions and not forcing a screaming child to go... you're the bad guy for ignoring the professionals, who all agree with me".

I think it's a setup for Mom to wind up D13 to emotional overload when it's time to take off, and then be "justified" about it.

The ideal situation actually would not hinge on whether or not D13 is screaming/activated. The ideal situation is -- you and stbx are a united front that is consistent about "yes, all 3 of you are going on the trip, both of us agree". If the "go/no go" variable is D13's attitude, then she is being overempowered to make adult decisions. The variable should be what you and stbx are united about.

Strongly, strongly recommend that you individually (not you and stbx together, at least not at first) meet with D13's C before the trip. Maybe raise the concern that you don't want your D to be parentified by being in a position to choose whether the trip happens or not... there are so many changes in the family right now, and you want to take that weight off of her and find a way for you and stbx to present a united front -- after all, you both have agreed to alternate weekend trips, so you're starting a "mom's time/dad's time" schedule, and you know it's critical for the parents to be united in supporting the kids with the schedule transition. As you plan to present a united front with stbx when it's her time for her trip, you're wondering how to make sure that you and she present a united front for YOUR trip. Something like that.

I've read and re-read Childress about a dozen times this month.  It's been a huge help

Really glad to hear it's been helpful. I remember feeling relief that a professional "got it"... even a professional far away whom I'd never met. Just felt less alone, and like I had more resources.

[EyesUp]

Thanks, all.

Mini update. I spoke with D13's C today. C immediately offered that she already spoke with STBX, and already knew about the trip.  Some very telling comments:

- agreed 100% that D13 should not drive the bus, it's a slippery slope, etc.
- has "a clear sense of what's going on at home between the parents, based on tone and body language" (implied that she's met with STBX in person, but I did not drill down to confirm)
- told STBX to support dad, otherwise it will come back to bite her
- told me to "remain positive, it will only serve you well in the long run"

Needless to say, I felt a bit better after the call today.

I also sat down with D13 and D10 and showed them pictures from the last time we took this trip with mom ~3 years ago.  I explained that when thinking about this weekend, I could pick someplace 100% new, or we could do something that's already familiar - and with changes in our family, I thought it would be good to go back to someplace that's familiar.  Looking at the pictures, D13 lit up a bit and recalled "yeah that place was awesome".  I asked her if she was feeling better about the trip, and she said yes.

So it will be interesting to see how things play out between now and when we hit the road on Friday, but generally feeling a little bit better.

[kells76]

Yes! Awesome to hear. Hang in there. Great job on giving the kids age-appropriate choices about the trip.

[EyesUp]

Thanks again for following along.

Had a good trip with the kids, although my STBX texted them throughout the trip and continuously on the day we were en route home... 

Some small progress is a new set of stips to include 50/50 parenting time.  I find myself wondering if it's a tactic, i.e., she has no intention to sign, and it's a distraction while she prepares to move out.

In any case, she's asked to have the kids for the first two weeks, which also coincides with the first two weeks of school.

I've countered that we should simply implement the 50/50 schedule.

Today I received a message from my oldest daughter - already parentified and aligned with her mom, but not 100%, yet - as follows:

"Hello. It would make me so much more comfortable if I could be with mom the first 2 weeks of school. We start school on a Wednesday, then starting Saturday we have a four day weekend (sat-tues.) Then we have another 3 day school week (Wednesday-Friday). Here is my proposal: I could either stay with you on the four day weekend (if I’m not going to the Knott’s that weekend) or I could come over 4 nights for dinner with you. You keep saying that you want me to be happy, and I would be so so so so much happier if I could just stay with mom those 6 days of school. Thank you so much!"

I've never received a note like this from her before.  I'm not even sure that she wrote it entirely on her own, although it's possible.

I could use some input on how to respond, knowing that whatever I write will go to her mother, and to the attys, and likely to a GAL or parenting coordinator at some point in the future...

I also know that where alienation is in play, and I have reason to believe that it is, that time is the enemy - so I'd like to find a way to get her on board with the new schedule sooner rather than later, and avoid a nearly ~2 week gap between STBX's move out, and the first sleep over at "home".

I know that asking the right questions is the key.

Thoughts?  TIA.

[kells76]

This is really hard stuff. I notice myself getting activated as I read it because it reminds me so much of what DH and I went through. So I will offer some thoughts and I'm sure others will come along with support as well.

Parentification of kids is dysfunctional. It elevates them in the family structure to be "equal to" or "above" a parent, often in a coalition with another parent, and in a position to "judge" the parenting of the first parent. It's intoxicating -- kids want it, because it feels so good in the moment -- but like any drug, deeply damaging.

You did great making sure all the kids went with you on the trip. Now, the next step is to day by day keep nipping these role reversals/boundary pushes in the bud.

Don't respond to D12 yet.

Consider something like this: Get an appointment/consultation with D12's counselor as soon as you can, to talk about implementing the schedule, and this text. Once it's set, consider letting xW know: "Hey, I'm meeting with D12's C to learn how to best implement the schedule. You're welcome to come along, it's at X time Y date."

Whether xW comes or not, you need to show that text to the C and figure out how to get ahead of what's going on -- your xW weaponizing your D's against you and against any kind of structure, scheduling, and your appropriate parental authority. If I'm remembering correctly, the C agreed that D12 should not be "driving the car" on these decisions, yes? And xW sort of agreed, or at least knew C's position?

Best case: you, xW, and C are all together, and C says "parents make decisions about schedules, not kids, you two need to implement the schedule starting now, putting it off falsely empowers the kids to believe that they can make adult decisions, I recommend you start schedule today" (or whatever is healthy). You get some kind of written/witnessed agreement with xW that the two of you will follow the professional's recommendations about scheduling

Good case: it's just you and C, but there is some kind of email or memorialization of C's recommendations, given to xW

Basically, there needs to be some kind of "thing" you can point to, to get you out of the "persecutor" role that xW is trying to put you in. She's also trying to stonewall on presenting a united front with you. That's what kids need -- the two parents saying "this is how it's going to be, it's our job to make these decisions together for you even if sometimes you don't feel happy about them right away"

But she wants to make you the bad guy who is "forcing" the schedule and "not listening" to D12's voice, so that she can be in a pathological alliance with D12, whose induced "loyalty" to Mom is for Mom's emotional benefit.

If after meeting with the C there's some communication between you and D12, do your best to have it be something like:

(finding validation target): "Honey, I'm so glad you felt like you could share your feelings and wants with me. That's so important!"

(truth part of SET): "Mommy and I make the schedule together."

or something like that.

Basically -- if you try to engage with the content of D12's text, it legitimizes her unhealthy position in the family hierarchy, where she is being placed by Mom's pathological need for emotional support and alliance.

Try to find a valid validation target, and after talking with D12's C, see if it's appropriate to reinforce that you and Mom are a united front when it comes to the schedule. Get the C's backing, and be ready to propose in front of C and xW that "you both agree to abide by the C's recommendations". Otherwise it's a power struggle and you are being positioned to lose.

Sorry this is happening.

[EyesUp]

Wow, thanks.

The good news is that I have a 1:1 call with D13's C tomorrow.

It will be near impossible to do a 3-way with STBXW.

The bad news is that the C is supposedly away until the end of Sept. after this point.

I suspect that the weekend away is already confirmed and that this is a setup.  However the fallback simply means that we implement the schedule as already proposed, so that the kids are with me before the weekend.  This lines up so that the kids will be with their mother on her birthday in Oct.  Further down the line, the schedule also projects to the kids with mom for Halloween, and with me for Thanksgiving and Christmas. I'm already prepared to trade Christmas for New Years... 

I need to read up on other details to get into stipulations, i.e., tie-breakers.  Hard to anticipate everything.

Thanks again.

[kells76]

The good news is that I have a 1:1 call with D13's C tomorrow.

Do you think it'd work to forward her the text beforehand, just so she has it to look at? May as well be as many steps ahead as you can. Of course it depends on the relationship you have with the C.

It will be near impossible to do a 3-way with STBXW.

Would she sabotage/interrupt? Stonewall/say "I'm not available then, but I am (at this other time that doesn't work for you)"?

Yeah, having a pwBPD directly in a session where you're trying to do actual problem-solving is... an experience. Any way to get a solid 30 min in with the C first, then "invite" xW to "share her thoughts"?

Basically what I'm wondering is -- if xW isn't held accountable by a professional in person to do the schedule, she'll keep trying to wiggle out of it: "Well, you never invited me to the session where you and C apparently agreed on it, so I'm not required to follow the schedule".

Wondering if there's a "win win" here where you and C get private time to work out path forward, but then xW "feels like" she also had input, and therefore has more buy-in/accountability. Or, maybe you get 45 min with the C and then C calls Mom for the last 15.

The bad news is that the C is supposedly away until the end of Sept. after this point.

Can you ask her to leave both you and xW with "homework"/"an assignment" to do during this time period? And maybe D13 as well?

Maybe: "Follow the 50/50 schedule as written below. D13 gets input for 2 day changes (i.e. 48 hours total); if the change is from Dad's to Mom's, then Dad gets equivalent makeup time; if the change is from Mom's to Dad's, then Mom gets equivalent makeup time. If the change includes an overnight, then the makeup includes an overnight. The makeup time happens in September. When I get back, we review how it went, get feedback from all family members, and make any changes I see are necessary". Or something like that, where D13 gets an appropriate amount of "input" that is NOT "driving the car" and doesn't let her just do what Mom wants by weaseling out of time with you, or saying that "dinners are the same as overnights".

I suspect that the weekend away is already confirmed and that this is a setup.

If this is far enough down the road, can you "get in front of this" and propose giving Mom that weekend only and getting your makeup weekend/days SOONER? NOT after. That could take you out of the "persecutor" role of "you don't listen to what I want to do, you just force me to do what you want"... if the fun weekend is really what D13 wants, but she's using unskilled and indirect communication (influenced by Mom) to try to get it, then see if you can brainstorm with C a way to (OK, and don't say this out loud) put Mom in a double bind. Mom is setting things up so you look like the bad guy who always gets what he wants and never listens to the kids. If you can get in front of that by offering to trade time (with your makeup time coming first), so that the kids can enjoy the fun time with Mom... where's the problem? Surely that would solve it? If "the issue" is "we want to do this fun activity with Mom" and you're like "sure, of course, Mommy and I will trade times, so you guys are with me the next 4 days!"... but there's still "a problem"... then you know what's up, and any C worth their salt will see it too.

[ForeverDad]

About birthdays... most states and county courts are consistent, the schedules typically alternate parents for the children's birthday's.  So one one year you get the kids on their birthdays, the alternate year the ex gets them.  Unless you write down in a court order something different.

It's possible that somewhere the parents' birthdays are also included in such schedules, but I'm not aware where those jurisdictions might be.  Is this something to get ahead of, your ex's expectations that parents always get the kids on their own birthdays too?  Or, if you do agree to that, make sure YOU get equal treatment.

Some parents here recognized there was no way to resolve this matter to everyone's agreement so what they did was to let the kids have doubled events.  A few days earlier or later you could have your own events with the kids on your time.  Neat idea, right?

Review your county's published list of "standard" holiday schedules.  Edit or strike out whichever ones you both agree won't apply.  Generally some of them won't apply to your family but I found out the hard way that an entitled parent will abuse an over-long list.  We had never scrutinized our county's lengthy holiday list and one winter I gave her a one week vacation notice between major holidays.  Well, to sabotage my vacation time she replied that for the first time ever she wanted our son for Kwanzaa.  It ended up in court (long afterward of course) and her defense was: though she was not of Jewish descent she wanted to observe it.  My lawyer swooped in and asked her repeatedly to describe this Jewish Kwanzaa (it is not Jewish).  It was the one instance listed in the court decision where it stated she was "not credible", subdued courtspeak for liar.

Did you notice that you barely have an agreement for 50/50 and the first exception is wanting two weeks?  I'm guessing that no one mentioned you'd therefore get the following two weeks?

When court started us on a 50/50 schedule our Custody Evaluator recommended a 3-2-2-3 (5-2-2-5) schedule.  One parent gets Mon-Tue overnights, the other parent gets Wed-Thu overnights and they alternate the Fri-Sat-Sun weekends.

When I sought and got full custody — he was 9-10 then — I recall asking my lawyer about simplifying it to alternate weeks since exchanges triggered her biggest conflict.  He responded, "Do you want the court to think Ex is okay enough to have longer visits with her son?" ... Longer visits may not be helpful.

My court allowed vacations up to 2 weeks in length with a total of 3 weeks max per calendar year.  Let that be the only time for such lengthy stays.

[kells76]

It's possible that somewhere the parents' birthdays are also included in such schedules, but I'm not aware where those jurisdictions might be.  Is this something to get ahead of, your ex's expectations that parents always get the kids on their own birthdays too?  Or, if you do agree to that, make sure YOU get equal treatment.

Also not aware of where that's boilerplate. DH and kids' mom did agree to that in their plan, though it's nonstandard.

A few days earlier or later you could have your own events with the kids on your time.  Neat idea, right?

That'll be a VERY helpful mentality going forward, if you need to cede some holidays so she feels like she's "winning". Just do your version... earlier    this has been very successful for us. We do early Christmas with the kids every year and it's been a nice break from trying to squeeze it in on Christmas Eve.

Did you notice that you barely have an agreement for 50/50 and the first exception is wanting two weeks?  I'm guessing that no one mentioned you'd therefore get the following two weeks?

That could be a play you make if getting xW to agree to follow the schedule doesn't happen. I wouldn't lead with it, though. But if there's no compromise/collaboration about the whole 2 week thing, and xW keeps weaponizing the kids about it, then play the "oh, of course... so then the kids are with me for the next 2 weeks solid". But I'd see that as more of a Plan D than Plan A.

Again, this is more long-term stuff, and I know you have a more acute thing to solve right now.

[EyesUp]

D13's C missed the call yesterday, I have to assume that she's already away until the end of Sept.  I need to address this on my own with D13 and STBXW...  A little bit jammed on how to proceed.

In parallel, STBX sent emails...
- accusing me of not supporting extra curriculars
- asking me to agree to have the same rules in both houses
- asking me to agree to after-school schedules - I WFH and I expect that she doesn't want the kids to stop by my house instead of going directly to her house on "her" days.

For extra curricular activities, the main thing is that STBX wants to keep our two oldest in a dance school in our old town - we moved two years ago. She previously wanted out, didn't like the director, but now doesn't want to disappoint the kids. Traveling to/from this place means extra hours in the car each week. There are decent options in our new town, but this is her chance to get me to be the bad guy and tell the kids they have to change dance schools...

For rules/schedules, it's a play for control, and I recognize the trap, but I'm not sure how to respond.  This stuff really jams me up...

These points are a sideshow, because we're still negotiating stipulations and separation of furniture/property.

The good news is that she will be out of the house at this time next week.

The bad news is that she will probably attempt to clean out the house on her way out, and there's little I can do about it.

[kells76]

sorry for all the questions, could you please remind me -- as I want to make sure I'm up to date with what's going on for you --

Do you have a lawyer?

Does your wife have a lawyer?

Is there any agreement about who the "referee" or "tiebreaker" is on putting together a parenting plan/schedule (i.e., "the mediator" is the ref, or "D13's C" is the ref...?)

What deadlines, if any, are there with putting together schedules?

There is an EOW schedule that is... proposed? binding? soon to be in effect...?

How far away is the old dance studio, and do the kids have any classmates also in your current town?

...

pwBPD often make plays based on "urgency" or "you have to decide now". I remember that from DH's ex. Can you give yourself a bit of time to see what on your list is actually, in reality, urgent/time based, and what just seems like it, because she's demanding?

Couple of thoughts:

extracurriculars: yes, driving would be a hassle, yet there are also a lot of changes going on in the family structure right now. Any way you can "agree for now" or "for the time being" that the kids dance there? It could deflate a lot of her antagonism and buy you some time.

Am I recalling correctly that as much as she huffs and puffs about "the kids need to be in THAT studio", you were actually the one driving them mostly?

Can you put her in a double bind -- "Sure, I agree with you that for now, the kids can stay at Studio A. Let's agree that on your days, you are in charge of transportation to/from, and on my days, I am in charge of transportation to/from." Let her put her money where her mouth is.

On your days, see if you can arrange a carpool for them with friends. If you get good vibes from any friends' parents, can you be vulnerable and just say, "Look, our family is in transition right now, and the kids love this studio and your kids. Would you be willing to help out with transportation for the next month (or 6 weeks, or some definite time frame)?" That would also buy you some time to slow down and think about it.

I know dance stuff is often seasonal. The kids may want to be in a winter show or spring show with their friends. End of Dec/start of Jan could be a natural transition time, as would June, if you can hold out that long. If you can make it through the end of the year, that could help the kids, deflate the conflict, and then you would have a "light at the end of the tunnel" for you and transportation.

Same rules in both houses: , obviously she means it's her rules at both houses. You could call her bluff and propose your rules for both houses, but I think it's too soon to joke like that, unfortunately. IDK if I'd even engage with that right now. If you think you have to, something like "thanks for your thoughts". It's really normal in two-household situations for rules to be different. She wants control. Yeah, maybe just don't engage on that one.

Agreeing on after-school schedules -- is that even doable yet? Does the dance studio have fall classes scheduled already? Would there be anything else to actually plan around?

Typical PP's are like "Parent A has kids 3pm (or whenever school is done) Monday through 3pm Wednesday. Parent B has kids 3pm Weds to 3pm Fri." etc etc etc". So I don't know why she wants to be more detailed unless it's what you're thinking, that she doesn't want the kids to be with you on her time. OK, so, on the one hand, that's sad. On the other hand, can you leverage that to get her to agree that "yes, both parents agree that the kids will not be with Parent A during Parent B's PT, and vice versa, unless both agree in writing" or something? So that way, she has tied her own hands, and can't be like "the kids SO want to be with me during your weekend".

She's making all these moves that she wants to use to constrict you, but she won't be happy if they're evenly applied. But no sane judge, mediator, or whoever will be like "if the kids are at Dad's they can always go to Mom's, but if the kids are at Mom's they CANNOT go to Dad's... yup sounds fair".

Keep turning her proposals back on her and agree that "it sounds great, let's both agree to the same terms" or "Are you agreeing to have that rule for both of us equally" or something like that. I suspect she's a lot of talk but not a lot of either followthrough (transportation to dance) or equality (rules for you but not her).

Wondering if all her control maneuvering is because she KNOWS she's the one moving out and why.

In terms of her cleaning out the house: are there any items that the kids would want to stay? I.e., it would not be good if she took X items to her place (perhaps for leverage to entice the kids over?) Can you preemptively store mission-critical stuff short-term somewhere, just to head her off?

Birth certificates, passports, documentation, memorabilia, photos...? Again, not sure what "flavor" of BPD she is... she may not be that, uh, devious, as to take stuff to "bait" the kids over, or practical/critical stuff to make life hard for you. As you said, she may take stuff just to take stuff.

In that case, if she's probably just gonna take random stuff, can you, as weird as it sounds, deprioritize it? Not give it a reaction? In a way, if she does pull a stunt like taking the couch, table, TV, chairs, shelves, etc... she will be showing the kids who she is, and you don't have to fight that.

[EyesUp]

sorry for all the questions, could you please remind me -- as I want to make sure I'm up to date with what's going on for you --

Do you have a lawyer?

Does your wife have a lawyer?

Is there any agreement about who the "referee" or "tiebreaker" is on putting together a parenting plan/schedule (i.e., "the mediator" is the ref, or "D13's C" is the ref...?)

What deadlines, if any, are there with putting together schedules?

There is an EOW schedule that is... proposed? binding? soon to be in effect...?

How far away is the old dance studio, and do the kids have any classmates also in your current town?

No problem, thanks for helping me think this through.

- We both have attys
- No tiebreaker discussion yet - since our first hearing is mid-Oct, I was thinking to take the 50/50 parenting schedule as step one, and to save tie-breaker provisions for the judge in ~6 weeks.  Just getting to 50/50 is a big win - she's been adamantly opposed to this from the beginning.
- Proposed schedule is 2/2/3 with alternating weekends, so if the stipulations are signed, we will have an EOW plan.  Proposed start is next week to coincide with her move out date, however we're still going back and forth and nothing is signed yet.
- Old dance studio is about 30 minutes away without traffic, sometimes 45-60 mins. If the schedule is weekends only, it traffic should not be an issue.  The kids have been going to the same place for 4-5 years, but their best friends just changed to a different studio.  These are friends from before our move 2 years ago.  Basically, we moved and continued going to the old studio.  STBX handled most of it, I would typically watch our 3rd/youngest while the two older kids went to dance, but we'd switch up some times.  We've discussed changing to a new studio for some time, for multiple reasons, but STBX has a strong aversion to certain changes - probably another type of control behavior. 

pwBPD often make plays based on "urgency" or "you have to decide now". I remember that from DH's ex. Can you give yourself a bit of time to see what on your list is actually, in reality, urgent/time based, and what just seems like it, because she's demanding?

I use this approach sometimes, it can be effective in terms of influencing outcomes, however it can invite other accusations.  In this case, we are at a major transition for the kids as she moves, and as school starts, so in fairness to all, especially the kids, some decisions must be made sooner rather than later.

It's already agreed that we'll each cover the kids activities during our individual time, however she has asserted (not asked) that she will take our youngest to girl scouts on Sundays because it's moms only. I asked to see a copy of the policy via email, she predictably exploded...  I offered to drop off and pickup, but she asserted that she intends to take D6 for this time.  It's not a weekly activity, and most of D6's friends participate, so we do need a solution.  I recognize that all parents have the dilemma of over-scheduling and limiting flexibility for other weekend activities/trips, vs. regular/routine participation and the social benefits that come with it.  Feeling my way through this.  I know I can participate with cookie sales and some volunteer activities, and that there is no formal "moms only" policy.  I'm fairly certain that STBX has already smeared me to the other moms - one of which is her former affair partner's wife.  It's a small town, not sure there's any way to mitigate some of this other than moving, maybe some day. So I'm not exactly itching to hang out with the moms anyway. For now, I'm prioritizing my kids' interests ahead of my own.

Same rules in both houses: , obviously she means it's her rules at both houses. You could call her bluff and propose your rules for both houses, but I think it's too soon to joke like that, unfortunately. IDK if I'd even engage with that right now. If you think you have to, something like "thanks for your thoughts". It's really normal in two-household situations for rules to be different. She wants control. Yeah, maybe just don't engage on that one.

Agreeing on after-school schedules -- is that even doable yet? Does the dance studio have fall classes scheduled already? Would there be anything else to actually plan around?

She's making all these moves that she wants to use to constrict you, but she won't be happy if they're evenly applied. But no sane judge, mediator, or whoever will be like "if the kids are at Dad's they can always go to Mom's, but if the kids are at Mom's they CANNOT go to Dad's... yup sounds fair".

Keep turning her proposals back on her and agree that "it sounds great, let's both agree to the same terms" or "Are you agreeing to have that rule for both of us equally" or something like that. I suspect she's a lot of talk but not a lot of either followthrough (transportation to dance) or equality (rules for you but not her).

Wondering if all her control maneuvering is because she KNOWS she's the one moving out and why.

Rules - I appreciate your sense of humor - .  Let's just say that she does not respond well to friendly sarcasm... or any comments re: equity, reciprocity, or fairness.  It's always got to be her way.  Modulating here is tricky because lack of response can (often will) be perceived as agreement, e.g., "Well, if you didn't agree, I would think that you would be mature enough to let me know like a functional adult!"

Maneuvering...  you nailed it. Her risk of exposure is high and getting higher as we get closer to the hearing. She knows she's messed up, in multiple ways.

In terms of her cleaning out the house: are there any items that the kids would want to stay? I.e., it would not be good if she took X items to her place (perhaps for leverage to entice the kids over?) Can you preemptively store mission-critical stuff short-term somewhere, just to head her off?

Birth certificates, passports, documentation, memorabilia, photos...? Again, not sure what "flavor" of BPD she is... she may not be that, uh, devious, as to take stuff to "bait" the kids over, or practical/critical stuff to make life hard for you. As you said, she may take stuff just to take stuff.

In that case, if she's probably just gonna take random stuff, can you, as weird as it sounds, deprioritize it? Not give it a reaction? In a way, if she does pull a stunt like taking the couch, table, TV, chairs, shelves, etc... she will be showing the kids who she is, and you don't have to fight that.

She's communicated with the kids before communicating with me about what she intends to take.  I find out indirectly from the kids, who are already bought-in to her plan.  D6 is excited about move day, because she's also been promised a party at the new house for all her friends (and STBX's mom friends).

I've been unable to get STBX to agree to a list - she explodes and says "fine, it's just stuff, you keep everything!" - the attys continue to go back and forth, and I've already offered/agreed to give STBX most of the stuff since my primary goal - 50/50 parenting - is finally in the mix.  I worry that this is all for show and that there will be no signed stipulations and we'll end up going in front of the judge in ~ 6 weeks with STBX attempting to establish a new status quo.

There is very little I'm concerned about - it's mainly the cost of replacing some of the kids' furniture in short order so that they are comfortable when they return to their home a few days after "moving" to mom's new home, e.g., D13 will need a new bed, mattress, etc.  Not to mention the rest of the house.  As discussed, STBX's idea of "equitable distribution" is problematic, although we do seem to be in sync re: premarital stuff and heirlooms remaining with original owners.  I cannot afford to fully refurnish the house, so it's a bit of stress.  STBX says things like "you completely take for granted that I am leaving you the snow blower" (purchased used for $300 ~10 years ago) - as if that makes up for taking a lot of things that we actually need on a daily basis.

I instructed my atty to say that no child support payments will start until the stips are signed, so hopefully that will provide some motivation.

There's a lot going on between D13's parentification/alienation and day-to-day navigation of the D process, keeping the kids occupied in the last days of summer before school starts next week, scrounging craigslist for furniture, and, you know...  regular work.

I'm truly ambivalent about the move - glad STBX will out of the house next Monday, but also terribly sad about what this means for the kids when they are alone with her. 

It's been just over a year since I discovered her affair and started to see who she really is - and learn about B Cluster PDs.

I've learned a lot, and I know this move needs to happen - it's the uncertainty of how to best support my kids going forward that gives me heartache.

Thanks again for following along.

[ForeverDad]

Child support or temporary spousal support typically is based on calculations of income and other resources.  If she's hiding income or assets there there is risk of a lousy support order.  For whatever reason, my ex never disclosed her income and so the lawyers agreed we'd credit her with an imputed minimum wage income.

You may feel getting an agreement for 50/50 is great - and it is - but when an entitled ex is involved you can keep going back to the court or mediator over all sorts of issues.  What if she decides to change pediatricians, dentists, schools, religious instruction, etc and you don't agree?  An equal 50/50 doesn't resolve such scenarios.  That is why courts prefer one parent has Decision Making or Tie Breaker or similar status.  The problem?  Mothers are typically defaulted to being in charge of the kids' custodial matters.

In my case I set one condition before making a recommended 50/50 settlement on Trial Day at the end of a two-year divorce process during which she was the two-year "temporary" custodial parent.  I was concerned she'd move around - and she did - and I'd have to uproot to stay close to my son.  My sole condition?  That I was the parent handling school matters.  Both lawyers insisted it didn't mean anything but it turned out I was right.  She caused more scenes at her own chosen school that within two months her school board gave me one day to register my kindergartner in my own nearby school district.  If I didn't have school authority then her school would have been stuck with her too.  Believe me, they were oh so glad to dump her.

[EyesUp]

For all who have been following along...  My uPWNPD/BPD / STBX moved out yesterday.

We signed stipulations on Sunday night, just prior to the move. Without going into too much detail, she was extra spicy in the days leading up to the move, but we got through it. 

I'm still jammed by certain things, but other behaviors have become predictable enough to be manageable, thanks in large part to this community.

At the last minute, she agreed to 50/50 parenting time as part of the stips.  Our first hearing is in about 6 weeks, so I don't anticipate any major change of circumstances or new claims that would justify a change at that point.  I believe she caved on parenting time in part due to the discovery process - in which her risk of exposure was/is steadily increasing.  I'm apprehensive about what's ahead, but will continue to document, document, document and continue to implement jiu-jitsu parenting.

Reading Splitting, among other resources, well in advance, has been key to getting to this point.

Since we're no longer cohabitating, I think it's time to let this thread close.  Again, thanks to everyone for the support over these past ~ 6 months.

There's still a long road ahead until D is complete, and an even longer road of parallel parenting as our youngest is 6, so a new thread is a real possibility.  Until then - Never a dull moment!