In 2017 my mom was diagnosed with BPD

[Depression = 72% of members]

In 2017 my mom was diagnosed with BPD.

I have no doubt the reason I keep getting tangled up women who have BPD is because I was raised by one. I was programmed to be the eternal chump.

So I need some counseling in order to break this cycle.

I was a regular here in 2012 - 2013. That was when I first (knowingly) encountered someone with BPD. She was a coworker who became a stalker. I had to see a therapist to get coaching on how to deal with the situation.

Part of that therapy brought me here. I discovered that not only did my coworker have BPD, but also my WIFE!

We divorced in 2013 and in 2015 I began a relationship with a woman who also turned out to have BPD. Once again I had been fooled - even though I thought had learned how to spot the warning signs. She had a few recognizable traits but when I discovered she lived a secret life as a CALL GIRL all the pieces instantly fell into place and I got the hell out of Dodge.

In 2017 I began a relationship with a woman that started out as a romance. After about 6 months we decided to just be friends. We were very close friends. As you can guess I realized that she too has BPD.

As before, most of the warning signs were right in front of me and I failed to connect the dots. Then over the past few days she blossomed and yesterday she broke off all communication in anticipation of being abandoned by me. (I'm moving to another state next Spring)

Today I reflected on everything I knew about her and applied what I know about BPD and of course it was obvious that for the fourth time I allowed myself to be fooled.

[Fooled Again!]

In 2017 my mom was diagnosed with BPD.

I have no doubt the reason I keep getting tangled up women who have BPD is because I was raised by one. I was programmed to be the eternal chump.

So I need some counseling in order to break this cycle.

I was a regular here in 2012 - 2013. That was when I first (knowingly) encountered someone with BPD. She was a coworker who became a stalker. I had to see a therapist to get coaching on how to deal with the situation.

Part of that therapy brought me here. I discovered that not only did my coworker have BPD, but also my WIFE!

We divorced in 2013 and in 2015 I began a relationship with a woman who also turned out to have BPD. Once again I had been fooled - even though I thought had learned how to spot the warning signs. She had a few recognizable traits but when I discovered she lived a secret life as a CALL GIRL all the pieces instantly fell into place and I got the hell out of Dodge.

In 2017 I began a relationship with a woman that started out as a romance. After about 6 months we decided to just be friends. We were very close friends. As you can guess I realized that she too has BPD.

As before, most of the warning signs were right in front of me and I failed to connect the dots. Then over the past few days she blossomed and yesterday she broke off all communication in anticipation of being abandoned by me. (I'm moving to another state next Spring)

Today I reflected on everything I knew about her and applied what I know about BPD and of course it was obvious that for the fourth time I allowed myself to be fooled.

[beatricex]

Hi Fooledagain!,
Welcome.

Can you tell us a little more about your mom, if you're comfortable?  Why do you think you're attracted to borderline love interests?  I just read an article yesterday about how our brains actually get addicted to the adrenaline we feel dealing with a mentally ill parent.  Then, to feel "normal" instead of running the other way, we seek out more relationships that feel familiar.

I'm sorry you are going through this, but I'm glad you're in therapy.
 

b

[beatricex]

Here is the article I referred to, see "Are you Addicted to Trauma" section

https://kimsaeed.com/2019/01/22/how-to-overcome-fear-after-psychological-narcissistic-abuse/

[Fooled Again!]

She had an auto immune disease that was triggered by my birth. Mom and dad never hesitated to let me know that, which is a hell of a thing to do to a kid.

She always played the victim card and routinely messed with my dad's head too. He was a Korean war vet with PTSD and combined with the games mom played, he became an abusive alcoholic.

So I was programmed to be mom's protector. Eventually I became a rescuer.

My ex wife once told me when we were first dating that I would be "so easy to take advantage of" and she went on to do just that. She never played the victim card with me until 20 years later. That's when she too was stricken with an auto immune disease.

As time passed she became psychologically and emotionally abusive. She became addicted to pain killers and alcohol. I tried to get her into therapy but she insisted she didn't need it, and eventually we divorced.

Looking back I can see hundreds of times that she had lied to me and manipulated me. Based on what I learned here I connected the dots and came to the conclusion that she was BPD.

Since then I have had nothing but BPD relationships. They need a rescue, I jump in, then the BPD dark side appears and I pull the plug.

When I meet someone I check off boxes in my head as I get to know them. When I'm satisfied that they are safe I jump in. Over time they gradually sink their hooks in, but I don't notice. Like slowly boiling a frog.

Then about 2 years in I discover their dark secret. The unchecked box that fooled me into thinking it was safe to jump in.

Now I have huge trust issues...

So to give a direct answer to your question: I do NOT thrive on trauma. I think these women sniff me out as the guy they can use and sadly I have yet to meet a woman who doesn't do that...circle back to trust issues.

[beatricex]

Hi again Fooledagain,

There might be something to that, I know I had very poor boundaries due to my Mom beating me down.

It manifested in multiple stalkers starting when I was 15. 

I have done a lot of work not to "attract" this type of person, so I do understand what u r saying.

Now if I perceive something is "off"  I take a deep breath, take a few steps back and really assess if I want to engage.

I do think there's nothing wrong with starting a friendship then later deciding "it's not for me."  That is just normal when ur getting to know someone.
b

[Methuen]

Oh my Fooled Again, that is quite the story.

I have huge trust issues, and my only BPD experience that I know of is my mother, so I can't even imagine what you are feeling with your assembly line of BPD relationships AND a BPD mother, but I can imagine it would be difficult to trust anyone. 

Despite that, I must say that you come across in print, as having a sense of humour still somewhat intact...

Back to your mother...can you describe her a bit for us?  What was/is your relationship with her like?

Have you ever seen a T again, since the BPD stalker episode?

Why do you think you jump in as rescuer in these romantic relationship?  Is it that you've been conditioned, but then don't recognize you've fallen into the same trap until it's too late (your "boiling a frog" analogy)? Or, do you "get something" out of being a rescuer?  If so, what?  Or maybe a bit of both? 

[Turkish]

She had an auto immune disease that was triggered by my birth. Mom and dad never hesitated to let me know that, which is a hell of a thing to do to a kid.

I agree that it's a he'll of a thing to tell a kid. It could be true, and it also might not be true. Regardless, you didn't choose to be born, so your parents failed to protect you from the consequences of their choices. And truthfully, things happen.  How did you feel when she told you that? How do you feel know?

I get what you say about rescuing. My therapist shared with me that he grew up in an alcoholic household. He told me, "I'm a Rescuer, and there's nothing wrong with being a Rescuer."

I was a mentor for at- risk teens 13 and 14 years ago. One of the things that the youth coaches said stuck with me: "you don't know what you don't know." That I met my uBPx and mother of our children as a fellow mentor is another story...

If you were trained from a young age how to interact with a parent in a dysfunctional manner, it's likely you might carry that into adulthood. You wouldn't know what you couldn't know.

What do you think?

[Fooled Again!]

I have had 2 replies since my last post, but don't know how to reply individually..

I'm mostly Irish so my sense of humor comes with the freckles.

I was close with my mom until 2005. That's when I first detected she was manipulating me. Dad died in 1990 so she focused her attentions on my kid sister and I after he was gone. Within a few years I had completely shut her out. After my first therapist, and my BPD education I realized she was BPD. So I maintained distance.

By 2017, dementia took hold. My mom had followed my sister to Baltimore a few years prior. I think in part because I stopped playing the game and my sister was all in. In 2019 my sister twisted my arm to come visit our mom, which I did. During that visit I could see that the monster was gone and my mom was a a helpless rag doll. So I let the past with her go and we reconnected.

It sounds goofy, but occasionally I get "premonitions" and 2 weeks before my mom died I called her and told her I loved her. She was so "out there" that I didn't call her on a regular basis because she just wasn't there. When I visited she kept asking if I was real...

In January of 2017 I asked the staff at the nursing home my mom was in to evaluate her because I believed she was BPD.

I saw a therapist again in September 2017.  I had just been burned by the second BPD girlfriend following my divorce. 

While I was seeing the T in 2017, I was informed that my mom was indeed BPD. I told my T that answered all my questions as to how I kept stepping into the same trap. I never went back to see the T.

That also coincided with the beginning of my then romantic relationship with the woman that brought me here a few days ago.

So, I think my problem is that as much as I try to prevent myself from getting into these relationships, I fail because once I get involved and attached I ignore the obvious warning signs months later because in my mind I have already vetted them and given them the all clear.

I don't get off on being a rescuer. I have been trying to avoid these situations since 2014. So far, I suck at it.





 

[Notwendy]

Something interesting I have read about repeating these types of relationships and how one's family of origin influences this.

There is a link between repeating family patterns in romantic relationships. A book I read called Passionate Marriage several years ago ( this was not about BPD specifically) touched on that subject using the term "differentiation" which means healthy boundaries and a good sense of self. While two people may not have the same behaviors, it stated that the two people tend to match in terms of their differentiation and then the next line which really stood out to me was " each person thinks they are more differentiated than their partner".

That was the part that got me thinking- about myself and then I see it also on this board in the relationship section where the focus is on the BPD partner having the issues. The behaviors may be worse in the BPD partner in terms of acting out- but it's not that- it's the "differentiation" part that matches and makes these two people enmeshed in ways.

I think poor boundaries are a hallmark of a family where there is a disordered parent. And when we grow up in one, it becomes our "normal". When someone with emotionally healthy boundaries begins to date someone who doesn't have them, it feels uncomfortable. The relationship probably doesn't progress. But two people who match in "differentiation" are likely to feel a fit because it's familiar to them.

While boundaries can be too weak, too strong boundaries can also be dysfunction. It's understandable that having a relationship that went badly could result to being defensive- having too strong boundaries. Keep in mind that people with emotionally healthy boundaries also respect other people's boundaries. If they met someone with too strong boundaries, they wouldn't proceed in a relationship, but someone who doesn't respect any boundaries would. So having too strong boundaries keeps people with boundaries out, and then, only people who don't respect boundaries will pursue them.

You mentioned you are very careful to prevent this situation again in dating and you feel these women just find you. My own opinion is that it's less conscious than that for them. Someone with healthy boundaries might sense defensiveness and respect the distance. Someone with poor boundaries might not.

Are you destined to repeat the cycle? Not necessarily. It will take some personal work with a T to learn some relationship skills and develop better boundaries but it can be done. I do think it's worth the effort whether someone is in a relationship or not- as this helps with all relationships (friends, neighbors, etc). When you change your side of the "match" then you have the chance to match with someone different. I have read that not doing some personal work like this does increase the chances of repeating the patterns with someone else.

I think we need to do this work with an objective person who can point out our own dysfunctional relationship skills. We really can't see them as it's something we grew up with as "normal". You say you are careful but one result of growing up with a disordered parent is that it's hard to know what "normal" is. For me, I grew up with a BPD mother and the rest of us were expected to be emotional caretakers. This was the "normal" I knew. I didn't recognize how my "normal" could impact relationships.

It's good that you see the patterns in your romantic relationships and your family. This is a start. Rather than think it's something these women do to you- knowing there's something you can do to change your patterns is empowering for you.

[Methuen]

I've been thinking about you Fooledagain, and the pattern of past romantic relationships with BPD women you described (also a BPD mother)

Do you think there is anything about co-dependency that could fit your situation?  Another member's thread topic about co-dependency got me thinking about this.  Perhaps I should have re-read this entire thread again - I apologize if this has already been mentioned.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=111772.0

[Fooled Again!]

I don't fit the codependent stereotype. I am the one who ends the relationships. I don't fear abandonment. I don't derive my sense of self from helping people.

This most recent situation is still on going. There is a game afoot which checks the box that confirms her situation. I'm still watching it unfold, while at the same time looking for more information that allows me to stop missing those unchecked boxes.


Telling me it's my fault because I have poor people skills or a codependency is not helping. I was in sales for 40 years. Requirement number 1...good people skills.

[Fooled Again!]

Let me try it this way:

I catch most traits early on, but always get blind sided by the one she kept hidden.

So, of the list of traits, how many do I need to spot in order to know there is a solid reason to suspect she's BPD?

4, 5, 6...?

of those, which ones are must haves?

[Notwendy]

I don't think we can spot traits easily or make a diagnosis. It's not as clear as a number of traits.

I think some people with BPD are very good at hiding their behaviors at first and they have a public persona. My mother is very different with casual aquaintances than she is with immediate family. They don't have a clue. But they also are not as deeply emotionally connected to her.

I wish there was some method of avoiding getting into a relationship with someone like this. But it's also not ideal to avoid all relationships. Perhaps the difference is that while many people might start the relationship, some people decide sooner that it isn't working out than later. All relationships are in a trial period at first. So ending them isn't a bad thing if they don't work for you. Honestly, I don't have much other way to tell at first since the traits may not be apparent at first.

[Notwendy]

 I don't know of a method of telling who is BPD or not when getting to know them, and don't know where to find that kind of information, if it exists.

[Methuen]

Telling me it's my fault because I have poor people skills or a codependency is not helping. I was in sales for 40 years. Requirement number 1...good people skills.

It sounds like I have offended you Fooledagain. I can see why you would feel upset if you believed I was blaming you.  I am sorry for the miscommunication, as that was not at all my intent.

Do you think there is anything about co-dependency that could fit your situation?  Another member's thread topic about co-dependency got me thinking about this.

I was only putting an idea out there for consideration. After being raised by a pwBPD, many of us on this board work towards managing codependent tendencies. Our FOO may have set us up for some less usual ways of thinking or relating because we grow up as children in that less functional environment. That is not our fault.  Since I don't know you as a person (or your history), I thought I would bring it up to reflect on.  That was the angle I was coming from.  Again I am sorry for the miscommunication.  It clearly upset you, and I did not at all mean for that to happen.

[Notwendy]

I don't think anyone here was intending to say it's your fault. It's not a baby's fault who they get born to.

Your main question- how do you spot the signs so you don't get fooled is addressed by the idea that who we get born to influences us from a very early age, at an emotional level. It's not something we may be aware of. It influences who we feel comfortable around and also who we have "chemistry" with. I am sure you have met many women, many who are attractive to you and attracted to you, but you don't have "chemistry" with all of them. You have chemistry with some of them, and several of them have had BPD like your mother. Surely there must be some connection to this, but that is not your fault.

The criteria for BPD are documented, but I think few people are going to discuss their feelings of emptyness, unstable relationships or other disordered behavior on the first few dates. In addition, I think their shame causes them to have a public persona that hides them well. I think everyone could pick up the overt warning signs. If the overt warning signs are not revealed then the other  signs must be less obvious.

Our mothers are our first bond as a baby. I think this bond to a disordered person influences our "radar" for disorder when starting or considering a romantic relationship. We know we can't change them. We also know we may not "pick up" the subtle signs if they feel familiar to us due to how we were raised.

I can't tell you what they are exactly. But somehow people who aren't in these kinds of relationships must be able to pick up the signs better. If we can't change the person with BPD and our radar can't pick up on their more subtle signs- then what we can do is examine our radar and fix it. But none of this is meant that any of us are at fault for what was influenced when we were children.

[Fooled Again!]

How does a therapist diagnose? What questions do they ask?

So far 2 of the key traits you just laid out are unstable relationships and feelings of emptiness.

[Fooled Again!]

And if they do tell me about those on the first few dates, is that enough of a red flag?

[Notwendy]

https://www.verywellmind.com/borderline-personality-disorder-diagnosis-425174

This might help.

It's written to the person but it isn't meant for you personally. It just describes what the criteria are and the visit to the mental health provider.

The DSM is the standard book for diagnosing mental disorders. This is a book that they use

I am not a therapist so I don't know their method, but they determine the diagnosis according to the information the person gives them. It's a bit harder if the person isn't honest with them

And yes, if someone starts to reveal these traits on a date, I'd be concerned. Ultimately it's your choice but I don't think it's appealing to be with someone who has all these traits. People make all kinds of decisions about whether or not to continue dating someone and if someone has behaviors that bother you, you can decide to not continue dating.

[Fooled Again!]

The DSM is what I'm familiar with and use as my list of check boxes. Being in sales for 40 years, I am trained at extracting information. Typically I can get the information from these women on the first few dates or even in the initial on line / phone chats.

So based on your replies, if they are willing to tell me about their history of failed relationships; express that they feel like no matter how hard they try they just can't win; someone is always taking advantage of them; they're having money trouble; they were molested as a child... I've already got what I need to put a fork in it and move on.

I always held out for the unsafe sex, substance abuse, and temper flares / extreme mood swings.

Do I have a pretty good grasp on this now?

[Notwendy]

My honest answer would be "I don't know".

We are all just lay people here sharing what has helped us. On the "BPD parent" section, it's about dealing with a BPD parent and how this has impacted us and how to work on that.

But after posting with you, I think what you want is a concrete way to assess if someone you are interested in has BPD. The best I can do is list the traits, which you already have.

I can tell you if it were me, and someone told me any one of these: history of failed relationships; express that they feel like no matter how hard they try they just can't win; someone is always taking advantage of them; they're having money trouble; they were molested as a child...

This would be enough for me to run for the hills.

I am not trying to have you go you back and forth from boards, but if you are not interested in the idea that early bonding and family patterns might have something to do with why we may miss the signs when dating a BPD person, you may get better responses on the relationship boards. The kinds of discussions about how to be sure this doesn't happen again seem to be on the detatching and learning board as there are others in your situation, considering dating again.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=11.0

Also, some of us post on more than one board, so you are welcome to do that too. I just think perhaps this board would be a better source for what to watch out for.


I

[Fooled Again!]

ok. I started on that board and got bounced over here. You told me want I came here for.

>> I can tell you if it were me, and someone told me any one of these: history of failed relationships; express that they feel like no matter how hard they try they just can't win; someone is always taking advantage of them; they're having money trouble; they were molested as a child...

This would be enough for me to run for the hills.<<

And with that I say farewell!