It's hard...

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I find myself thinking along the same lines as NotWendy.

The information we learn here, the skills, tools, tips are for us.   They are for us to use to make ourselves more emotionally intelligent, more emotionally mature, with better communication skills and with better boundaries about knowing when to walk away.    They are for us to use to make the relationship function to the best possible level it can.

But just like an addict is dependent on the substance they abuse, a co-dependent can have an "addiction" to the dysfunction in the relationship. In a way, you both know how to "invite" each other into an emotional binge. You know when you've done it because you feel emotionally "hung over" the next day.

often times its hard to let go of the circular arguments, or the endless non productive discussions of 'what is wrong in the relationship'.    it can be addictive.   the idea of 'this time I am going to prove my point' can be seductive.   the idea of 'I need to be able to express myself'  can be over used.     

a long time member here used to ask - "what good could possible come of this?"   when faced with a should I or shouldn't I decision.     and then he would point out moderation and realistic goals...   we don't try to fix all our problems in one 24 hour period.     

'ducks

[babyducks]

I find myself thinking along the same lines as NotWendy.

The information we learn here, the skills, tools, tips are for us.   They are for us to use to make ourselves more emotionally intelligent, more emotionally mature, with better communication skills and with better boundaries about knowing when to walk away.    They are for us to use to make the relationship function to the best possible level it can.

But just like an addict is dependent on the substance they abuse, a co-dependent can have an "addiction" to the dysfunction in the relationship. In a way, you both know how to "invite" each other into an emotional binge. You know when you've done it because you feel emotionally "hung over" the next day.

often times its hard to let go of the circular arguments, or the endless non productive discussions of 'what is wrong in the relationship'.    it can be addictive.   the idea of 'this time I am going to prove my point' can be seductive.   the idea of 'I need to be able to express myself'  can be over used.     

a long time member here used to ask - "what good could possible come of this?"   when faced with a should I or shouldn't I decision.     and then he would point out moderation and realistic goals...   we don't try to fix all our problems in one 24 hour period.     

'ducks

[Notwendy]

I agree, they are for us.

Gaining more emotional regulation skills helps in many ways- besides the relationships we are concerned about. Perhaps we may have a difficult co-worker, or other family member/friend who may be difficult to get along with. These skills can help with these situations too.

Sometimes a poster asks- why do we have to put in the effort to do self work when it's the other person who has the problem?

We can't change someone else, we can only work on ourselves, so why put in so much effort that isn't very effective. However, when we improve our own skills, they help us with the person we are concerned about - and we keep the skills we work at.

[truthdevotee]

Thanks all, very much, for your input. It helps a great deal, every single thought and feeling shared.

[truthdevotee]

Yes, will continue working on emotional regulation. Joining daily 12 Step meetings, seeing a therapist once per week, practicing self care, talking to you all on the forum, other support groups and sharing partners, etc.

I agree I should avoid sending more emails and feel the feelings they're designed to hide in those moments.

My therapist said it might be helpful to help her find therapy as it looks like she may not have the energy to do so. She also said to start couples therapy.

She continues pushing me to go to the mountains. It's insatiable!

I need to step away very frequently. I don't want the addiction of the emotional roller coaster ride. It is sometimes very difficult as even after I've left the house, she will continue as soon as I get back. After 3 times leaving and coming back, I'm exhausted and just want to lay in bed.

Meanwhile she's contacted my sponsor and is blaming me a lot. That's OK. I just need to stay calm, pray, meditate.

[truthdevotee]

I won't talk about BPD or trauma with her again. It was a learning opportunity. I'm moving on now. Boundaries are back in place. I just need to protect myself from her chaotic energy.

[Cat Familiar]

I’m in full agreement with Notwendy and ‘ducks.

I know how tempting it is to want to try and share who you are with your wife. Sad to say, but so many pwBPD do not have the capacity to really engage on that level.

You share a deep seated feeling, and wait for a response, and at best, it can just fall flat. You get no reply that lets you know you’ve been heard or understood.

At worst, your words are twisted and turned against you in a hurtful way.

[truthdevotee]

She joined my 12 Step meeting today, for the first time in 9 years, she shared.

It was spontaneous, I handed her the phone (the meeting is online) and she shared.

She was sharing and talking with the group for about 30 minutes.

I felt deeply joyful and safe. I felt like for the first time in years her burdens are shared with someone other than me... I felt the joy of relief and freedom.

I hope she keeps coming back. Every day. One meeting per day. I hope she does it.

I'm aware though that I need to be cautious. Joining the group might be good for her, it may help her with a daily reprieve (if she commits to it), but I don't know if it will help her with her behavior. She'd need an experienced sponsor in that regard too, which she may find through the group.

[truthdevotee]

She's gone to the mountains alone. This is really good progress. The fact that she'll learn to drive the car, spend time alone for self-care, etc.

Now she's gone, it's as if an invisible energy field of entrapment has disappeared. My energy for fathering has increased tenfold, the joy, the freedom, the love... as soon as she left, for the first time in the boy's lifetime, I called my sister - their Aunty, Uncle and cousins. Video call... completely free to be myself, completely healing for the boys to share that joy with their wider family, to receive the love that has been suppressed due to my partner's issues.

Cat said a few days ago, with safety, comes clarity. This is true and she's only been gone 45 minutes. It's sad that it is this way, but it is, and the experience of sharing joy and love with family of origin via video chat brought clarity at how sick the atmosphere is at home that my expwbpd holds such hatred towards people who are loving and energetic and caring.

[Notwendy]

How does your sponsor feel about her joining the group?


12 step groups are for specific issues. They aren't therapy sessions. Venting to the group can be a first step but this isn't effective unless someone is willing to do some serious personal work on some kind of additive issue or co-dependency.

There are a few couples in my 12 step groups. They are there for certain reasons- one couple - they both have codependency issues due to family dysfunction. One couple sometimes came for addiction issues but mostly it was the enabler- partner. I don't know anyone in the groups with serious BPD. This is just my observation.

[truthdevotee]

How does your sponsor feel about her joining the group?


12 step groups are for specific issues. They aren't therapy sessions. Venting to the group can be a first step but this isn't effective unless someone is willing to do some serious personal work on some kind of additive issue or co-dependency.

There are a few couples in my 12 step groups. They are there for certain reasons- one couple - they both have codependency issues due to family dysfunction. One couple sometimes came for addiction issues but mostly it was the enabler- partner. I don't know anyone in the groups with serious BPD. This is just my observation.

I'm not sure what he thinks. It was rather spontaneous. It appears she wants to keep going. I don't know if her intention is growth now or in the future.

I'll help her find an individual therapist... at least provide some potential options, but then leave it in her hands to choose someone, reach out, and go to sessions.

[Cat Familiar]

Call me skeptical, but I think the reason she joined the group was to check up on you.

[Notwendy]

Yup, Cat said what I was aiming at by asking you what your sponsor thought about it?  

I am also skeptical, because for the 12 step programs to work, one had to be willing to be insightful and also to accept some frank feedback about our own issues that are driving the problems. If you truly wish to be hopeful then give this some time and see if she sticks to it and is willing to do the work. Yes, people may vent about a problem in order to seek help but it's not designed for people to just vent at

I also don't think 12 step programs were designed to treat BPD. They are for people struggling with addictions/codependency and families/partners concerned about them- not for the partner's specific mental health therapy.

I also wondered if you could feel comfortable speaking frankly to the group about your issues/concerns with her being there.

[truthdevotee]

Thanks Cat and Notwendy

Yeah, so far she has just blamed. My sponsor sent some high energy frank feedback to her via email, however, in her reply to him she appeared to miss it all and simply continued to fight her corner with blame towards me. My sponsor is very experienced and psychic regarding the patterns.

That last sentence has been on my mind too. I would not be able to share openly with her there.

Ill observe over the next weeks how consistent she will be, and also if she'll accept one of the women who goes to the meeting as her sponsor. She talked with the woman a lot and the woman was understanding and supportive, which is a good step to keep someone coming back. However, the woman isn't an experienced sponsor and likely doesn't know about borderline.

I'm skeptical too. And naively hopeful, most likely... But more on the skeptical side. She has for 8 years talked negatively about the meetings and even pulled me away from them at one point. She's talked negatively about my sponsor and sharing partner. And now boom, she's suddenly a good student. It's so hard for me to see if this is real or just a smoke screen.

With safety, comes clarity. Even this day on my own with the boys has brought clarity. It's been smooth, fun, easy... Which is never the case when she's around, sadly. I feel much less stress, much more inner connection, and much more connection with the boys.

[Notwendy]

Even the most experienced sponsor is not equipped to treat BPD. 12 steps are lay groups, and lay sponsors help other members walk through the steps. 12 step groups are not for treating mental illnesses.

[truthdevotee]

Even the most experienced sponsor is not equipped to treat BPD. 12 steps are lay groups, and lay sponsors help other members walk through the steps. 12 step groups are not for treating mental illnesses.

Thanks Notwendy. I understand.

[truthdevotee]

I suddenly felt unsafe as she has sent an email to my group. It was manipulative and painted me in negative light. I suddenly feel unsafe as the meetings are my most sacred and intimate heart space.

Therefore I explained to the group to be cautious and outlined what the manipulation was. I also shared your message Notwendy with them. I said to my sponsor I may call him more directly and avoid the meetings that she goes to.

[GaGrl]

She is, once again, attempting to control you and your relationships. She knows you receive support from your 12-step group, therefore she has inserted herself into that group. You can't allow this to continue. I hope your sponsor finds another group to recommend to her, and perhaps "disinvites" her.

So manipulative, so intrusive.

[ForeverDad]

This scenario, that her participation will become negative, is almost predictable.  It is similar to marriage counseling.  If one spouse is manipulative or blaming, one way or another it can't last.

It is also similar to here.  This is a safe place for those who have been exposed to BPD behaviors and traits.  There are some who find their ways here but they're politely told this is not a site for them and they are redirected to other sites which are more suited for their needs.  (This is also a major reason we are not to tell the pwBPD in our lives about our peer support here.  Their presence here would quickly devolve into denial and blaming.  And a big flame out.)

[truthdevotee]

Your messages are extremely insightful.

I invited this onto myself - I was naive (again) - and I think it's a part of co-dependency. My investment in her path is still too high. I put her on the phone to my group - it was my fault she got there in the first place. I also help her setup the call-in to the group via her phone. It's all my mistake. And now yes, I recognize that your messages are completely accurate, I can feel it happening already that her approach is blame toward me and manipulation - very subtle - toward the people on my group. It's my fault, and now I regret it. I invited her into my safe space. Lesson learned.

I will absolutely not do this again - she will never know about this forum, and I was considering setting her up with the therapist I see, but I will not do that. It will get complex.

I told my group about my feelings and my sponsor replied:

"Rest assured we do not believe what people say nor do we believe what they think we believe the actions.  We understand that everybody is manipulated and everybody manipulates.  Don't worry.  You are our hero"

I believe he's aware, yet the other members might not be.

I hope she won't stay in attendance, and perhaps he or I will do something to point her in a new direction.

I am very grateful for your experience, strength and hope here. Couldn't do any of this without you.

It's almost as if my denial slowly, slowly, very slowly, lifts, regarding her condition. All the blind hope I had, all the unawareness of her manipulation, the disbelief that she could be this way.

[babyducks]

I invited this onto myself - I was naive (again) - and I think it's a part of co-dependency. My investment in her path is still too high.

one of the characteristics of co-dependency is believing that others can't take care of themselves.   and that offering advice and direction is caring, not controlling.    most of here share the characteristic of being 'rescuers', caretakers, fixers.     ~if only they would listen to us we could make their lives so much better~    type of thinking.     you seem to be describing a pattern of rescuing.     you are going to move out and then something happens and you send an email,  or connect her to a 12 step group, or have one more conversation and think 'this is going to be it'   I am going to be heard and things will get better.

why do you think you have this need to rescue her?   or fix her?   or help her at your own expense?

I believe he's aware, yet the other members might not be.

you are probably correct.  other members will not see it the way you do.   they don't have your experience with her and pwBPD are very good at projecting victimhood.    there will be people who believe her stories.

I hope she won't stay in attendance, and perhaps he or I will do something to point her in a new direction.

so you are going to help her again?   

[truthdevotee]

one of the characteristics of co-dependency is believing that others can't take care of themselves.   and that offering advice and direction is caring, not controlling.    most of here share the characteristic of being 'rescuers', caretakers, fixers.     ~if only they would listen to us we could make their lives so much better~    type of thinking.     you seem to be describing a pattern of rescuing.     you are going to move out and then something happens and you send an email,  or connect her to a 12 step group, or have one more conversation and think 'this is going to be it'   I am going to be heard and things will get better.

why do you think you have this need to rescue her?   or fix her?   or help her at your own expense?

you are probably correct.  other members will not see it the way you do.   they don't have your experience with her and pwBPD are very good at projecting victimhood.    there will be people who believe her stories.

so you are going to help her again?   

I love your questions. They're deep. Why do I do this? Why do I hope? Why I'm naive at such a deep level?

I am reflecting on all these questions. Thank you...

One question: I don't know if I should help her to find help. My therapist who doesn't know about BPD advised me to help her even if just to search out some options, because she likely wouldn't have the energy to do so. Is it wise for me to do this?

[truthdevotee]

The toxic relationship between my parents definitely shaped this toxic hope cycle I go into. The deep sadness at the fights, the hope in the brief times of peace. The constant helping them to fix their relationship and themselves.

[babyducks]

I love your questions. They're deep. Why do I do this? Why do I hope? Why I'm naive at such a deep level?

I am a helper, rescuer, caretaker, because I was raised that way.   as a young child I went to live with my grandparents to ~help~ them with everyday living concerns.   taking the trash out.  doing the dishes.   helping with household chores.   my grandparents had health issues and I was the 'fix'.   I learned that love was conditional on how much help I could provide.    and I unconsciously I learned to confuse love with pity.   and the need to rescue.

One question: I don't know if I should help her to find help. My therapist who doesn't know about BPD advised me to help her even if just to search out some options, because she likely wouldn't have the energy to do so. Is it wise for me to do this?

I am going to answer your questions with questions.   have you asked her?    have you asked her if she wants help doing this?   or if she would rather do it alone?       have you figured out where your boundaries are before you begin this process?    does "help" mean you search with her for therapists?   does "help" mean you pick a therapist for her?   does "help" mean you go with her to the appointment?   every appointment?    

the more help you provide the less ownership she will feel of the process.    the boundaries you establish here will protect you from helping at your own expense.     and help her make choices that invest her in her decisions.

[babyducks]

My therapist who doesn't know about BPD advised me to help her even if just to search out some options, because she likely wouldn't have the energy to do so.

so lets walk through this for a minute and see how it might play out.   

lets say you search out some options... and she picks one.    she goes to therapy a couple of times and has a rough session.    what are the chances that she is going to say Oh TD picked the wrong therapist for me,  TD sent me to see a jerk, I am never doing that again.    I am guess they are pretty high.    the more you help the more she will pass responsibility onto you.     that's something you want to be aware of.

[truthdevotee]

Insightful article - https://narcwise.com/2018/07/03/when-hope-kills-narcissistic-abuse/

[truthdevotee]

I am a helper, rescuer, caretaker, because I was raised that way.   as a young child I went to live with my grandparents to ~help~ them with everyday living concerns.   taking the trash out.  doing the dishes.   helping with household chores.   my grandparents had health issues and I was the 'fix'.   I learned that love was conditional on how much help I could provide.    and I unconsciously I learned to confuse love with pity.   and the need to rescue.

Thanks for sharing this. Hearing about your experience helps me to see mine more clearly.

I am going to answer your questions with questions.   have you asked her?    have you asked her if she wants help doing this?   or if she would rather do it alone?       have you figured out where your boundaries are before you begin this process?    does "help" mean you search with her for therapists?   does "help" mean you pick a therapist for her?   does "help" mean you go with her to the appointment?   every appointment?    

the more help you provide the less ownership she will feel of the process.    the boundaries you establish here will protect you from helping at your own expense.     and help her make choices that invest her in her decisions.

Thank you... I understand that the more help I provide, the less ownership she'll feel. Grateful for the questions you asked.

She wants help. She says she's tried, but can't find help. I'm not certain she thinks she needs help. To help her, I would find some (e.g. 2 or 3) potential options for her, however, I'm limited in my capacity as I don't speak the language very well in the country I live in (her native country). After providing the 2 or 3 options, I'll leave everything else up to her.

[truthdevotee]

so lets walk through this for a minute and see how it might play out.   

lets say you search out some options... and she picks one.    she goes to therapy a couple of times and has a rough session.    what are the chances that she is going to say Oh TD picked the wrong therapist for me,  TD sent me to see a jerk, I am never doing that again.    I am guess they are pretty high.    the more you help the more she will pass responsibility onto you.     that's something you want to be aware of.

Thanks... just read this message after I posted my last one.

It's quite likely that the person I choose she would see 2 or 3 times and then stop seeing.

If this happens, I won't help her again to find other options.

[truthdevotee]

Really good article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/5-types-people-who-can-ruin-your-life/201906/can-you-cure-borderline-personality-unconditional

[Snowflake90]

Hey there TD, I've been through most of your thread.
First of all, sorry to hear about your situation.
Sorry for baging in but just wanted to give my 2 cents.
I think I was in a somewhat similar situation to yours about a year ago.
I have a 5 yr old boy and a 2 yr old girl. I chose to leave.
Do I regret the decision? Yes and no. I know I did the right thing, my now defunct marriage was killing me.
Slowly but surely it was. My anxiety was through the roof, and it was directly impacting my parenting, work, health and whatnot. I do regret not being part of a "complete family" (though had I ever had one in the first place? it was super dysfunctional). I miss my kids constantly, but I have a somewhat fair arrangement. I pick 'em up every tuesday, deliver them at school on wednesdays and get alternate weekends. I too was on an SSRI back in the days. Leaving improved my health and self esteem in unimaginable ways. I don't take any meds nowadays.
What led me to decide?
It's one of those things life teaches you... People barely change, if they do at all. Accept the possibility your wife won't change significantly for the next 20  years. Are you okay with that? How do you see yourself and herself in 20 years together? In my case I could only see grim scenarios, hence my decision. Only you can judge that. I know that particular meditation really helped me decide (i.e. how do you see you and your partner in the next 5,10,20 yrs). I too thought a lot about staying for the kids. But in all honesty, I wasn't being as good a parent as I am now, single. The chaos my marriage created made being a good parent an insurmountable task. Leaving meant I'd see my kids less often, but when I do, I give them my best, and they know it. Kids are extremely resilient. They surely suffer from a divorce. But perhaps they suffer more from a broken home with unhappy parents. My ex promised to change many times, only to relapse into old habits. One day I simply gave up.
The hardest part of all that is admiting defeat. It's giving up the dream of having that "complete and happy family".
On a brighter note, I've gone out with a girl that she said something very powerful: "our broken past should not be an impediment to living a happy and fulfilling life. One can always begin another story anew".
Here's where I was a little less than a year ago:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=347305.0
I hope you should find clarity. I know how painful the doubt is. I wish I could tell you I'm a 100% happy person right now. I ain't. This episode in my life left lifelong scars. But I'm sure I'm feeling and living way better than I used to.
Please don't take my message as a "leave". Take it as a "don't be afraid to consider leaving and most importantly don't feel guilty about it. Invest considerable time into meditating about it and make sure it's your decision, not anyone else's, either to stay or leave."

[ForeverDad]

I have a 5 yr old boy and a 2 yr old girl. I chose to leave.
Do I regret the decision? Yes and no. I know I did the right thing, my now defunct marriage was killing me.
Slowly but surely it was. My anxiety was through the roof, and it was directly impacting my parenting, work, health and whatnot. I do regret not being part of a "complete family" (though had I ever had one in the first place? it was super dysfunctional)...

Accept the possibility your wife won't change significantly for the next 20  years. Are you okay with that? How do you see yourself and herself in 20 years together? In my case I could only see grim scenarios, hence my decision. Only you can judge that.

This is an excellent mental exercise... step outside your immediate situation and ask yourself where you will be years down the road.  And where your kids will be.  That's the difference between subject perspective (from inside the box) or objective perspective (as someone else sees it or as you would look back years from now).

I know that particular meditation really helped me decide (i.e. how do you see you and your partner in the next 5,10,20 yrs). I too thought a lot about staying for the kids. But in all honesty, I wasn't being as good a parent as I am now, single. The chaos my marriage created made being a good parent an insurmountable task...

Previously on this thread I wrote a quote, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Something to ponder.

The hardest part of all that is admitting defeat. It's giving up the dream of having that "complete and happy family".

Sadly, it was a dream, hopium, not reality.