It's hard...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

This is an excellent mental exercise... step outside your immediate situation and ask yourself where you will be years down the road.  And where your kids will be.  That's the difference between subject perspective (from inside the box) or objective perspective (as someone else sees it or as you would look back years from now).

It's what took me outta that hole. Hope it helps other members reach the necessary clarity of mind.

Previously on this thread I wrote a quote, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Something to ponder.

I know , I copied that from you. Only I didn't mention the author :p

Sadly, it was a dream, hopium, not reality.

Hopium... very good term. It still lingers onto me. Maybe I still miss the "action" i.e. the crucial caretaking role I had. My mind also deletes all the bad moments and make me remember the few good ones. Indeed a mix of unrealistic expectations with romanticized memories.

TD I just realized I had posted on a previous thread of yours a while ago . Anyway, this new post I made contains some new info. Hope I don't bore you with some repetition.

[Snowflake90]

This is an excellent mental exercise... step outside your immediate situation and ask yourself where you will be years down the road.  And where your kids will be.  That's the difference between subject perspective (from inside the box) or objective perspective (as someone else sees it or as you would look back years from now).

It's what took me outta that hole. Hope it helps other members reach the necessary clarity of mind.

Previously on this thread I wrote a quote, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Something to ponder.

I know , I copied that from you. Only I didn't mention the author :p

Sadly, it was a dream, hopium, not reality.

Hopium... very good term. It still lingers onto me. Maybe I still miss the "action" i.e. the crucial caretaking role I had. My mind also deletes all the bad moments and make me remember the few good ones. Indeed a mix of unrealistic expectations with romanticized memories.

TD I just realized I had posted on a previous thread of yours a while ago . Anyway, this new post I made contains some new info. Hope I don't bore you with some repetition.

[truthdevotee]

Hey there TD, I've been through most of your thread.
First of all, sorry to hear about your situation.
Sorry for baging in but just wanted to give my 2 cents.
I think I was in a somewhat similar situation to yours about a year ago.
I have a 5 yr old boy and a 2 yr old girl. I chose to leave.
Do I regret the decision? Yes and no. I know I did the right thing, my now defunct marriage was killing me.
Slowly but surely it was. My anxiety was through the roof, and it was directly impacting my parenting, work, health and whatnot. I do regret not being part of a "complete family" (though had I ever had one in the first place? it was super dysfunctional). I miss my kids constantly, but I have a somewhat fair arrangement. I pick 'em up every tuesday, deliver them at school on wednesdays and get alternate weekends. I too was on an SSRI back in the days. Leaving improved my health and self esteem in unimaginable ways. I don't take any meds nowadays.
What led me to decide?
It's one of those things life teaches you... People barely change, if they do at all. Accept the possibility your wife won't change significantly for the next 20  years. Are you okay with that? How do you see yourself and herself in 20 years together? In my case I could only see grim scenarios, hence my decision. Only you can judge that. I know that particular meditation really helped me decide (i.e. how do you see you and your partner in the next 5,10,20 yrs). I too thought a lot about staying for the kids. But in all honesty, I wasn't being as good a parent as I am now, single. The chaos my marriage created made being a good parent an insurmountable task. Leaving meant I'd see my kids less often, but when I do, I give them my best, and they know it. Kids are extremely resilient. They surely suffer from a divorce. But perhaps they suffer more from a broken home with unhappy parents. My ex promised to change many times, only to relapse into old habits. One day I simply gave up.
The hardest part of all that is admiting defeat. It's giving up the dream of having that "complete and happy family".
On a brighter note, I've gone out with a girl that she said something very powerful: "our broken past should not be an impediment to living a happy and fulfilling life. One can always begin another story anew".
Here's where I was a little less than a year ago:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=347305.0
I hope you should find clarity. I know how painful the doubt is. I wish I could tell you I'm a 100% happy person right now. I ain't. This episode in my life left lifelong scars. But I'm sure I'm feeling and living way better than I used to.
Please don't take my message as a "leave". Take it as a "don't be afraid to consider leaving and most importantly don't feel guilty about it. Invest considerable time into meditating about it and make sure it's your decision, not anyone else's, either to stay or leave."

Dear Snowflake90

Thanks very, very, very much for taking the time to read this very long thread, and for the loving effort you put into writing your reply. I greatly appreciate it.

I have been a bit delayed responding because I started a new job this week.

I love everything you wrote. It hits right on the inner doubt spot. The part of me that keeps questioning. I'm going to practice the meditation you shared this weekend as much as possible.

I will, most likely, go ahead and stick to renting the flat for 1 year. If it turned out to be a mistake, then that's OK; all part of the learning process. The flat will also help me live up to my work responsibilities in my new job as well as provide me with more time with the boys, because I would save about 1 hour per day on travel.

She is writing emails to my sponsor which contain plenty of blame but which also say things like this:

Let´s do it for the boys. Let´s show them that their daddy and mummy can make it that they can fix everything. They will have such treasure for their life.

I can do any therapies individual, couple... I do not resist anymore. I just need to help to find someone who is educated in the field. I did not find anyone yet. I think it might be that people in this fields are not that evolved in Czech. I need to trust that people would direct me in the right way.

Let´s build the trust and love again.

I promise I will not quit my spiritual journey. I am grateful you introduced me to this new area for me. I am grateful to have SPONSOR'S NAME´s guidance. He is highly educated and experienced and I trust him. I trust if I do it for myself I will do it for all my boys and simultaneously for everyone and make the world better.

It feels like she's being genuine. But I don't know...

And another thing is I don't want to have a physical relationship with her currently. But I don't know if that's because I've just chosen on a deep level to depart the relationship to a large degree. It's also because her behavior is hurtful and she expects me to do so much that is impossible for another person to provide. In the end, my body shut down towards her. And of course the prospect of another sexual relationship in the future with another woman is enticing, but I don't believe I should allow that to sway my decision.

Thank you so much for your share. So much gold for me. Thank you...

[Notwendy]

Have you heard of mirroring?

I am not going to consider if she's being sincere or not. Or if she sent this email with any mal intentions.

Both pwBPD and their partners share the trait of co-dependency- maybe they act on it in different ways but the behavior reflects a poor sense of self and people pleasing traits-  trying to be what the other person thinks they should be in order to feel loved and secure, rather than being their authentic self. Both do this out of fear.

Motivation drives all behaviors. The more motivated, the more someone can stick to doing something. This can vary according to the task at hand. All of us can stick to something if it is immediately rewarding. It's the tasks that are not quickly rewarded that challenge us. A child might have ADD, but be able to concentrate on a video game better than on their homework. This doesn't mean they don't have ADD, they have difficulty concentrating on everything but can pull it together if very motivated but they may not be able to sustain that.

A person with BPD can do this as well. Hold it together when highly motivated- at least for a while. My BPD mother has a social persona where she does hold it together, but when she's in control. She can go have coffee with a neighbor for instance and be on her best behavior. It's a long term closer relationship that is problematic for her. This is not from any malicious intent. It's the nature of BPD. Just because a child with ADD can play a video game for 30 minutes but not their homework does not mean they aren't doing their homework on purpose.

We are all externally motivated to some extent. However for most of us, we have tasks we don't like to do, but we do them because we are internally motivated as well.  An older child may not like doing homework, but if they want to graduate and go to college one day they will do it. They become internally motivated to reach a long term goal.

At the moment, your partner is scared of the relationship falling apart, scared of losing your support financially and with taking care of the boys. This is expected- anyone would be scared as well. She is highly motivated to repair the situation. Her attempts are sincere. The question is, is this sustained change? Some people with BPD have been successful at self work with certain therapies. I don't know the success rate. But I would think they have been motivated to do this work.

You will know by the outcome of your decision. Stay to your decision and she will continue to try to make things better ---until she sees that you are sticking with it. External motivation can only last so long. The quick way to see would be to give in. "Ok honey, I believe you, we are back together", and see how long her desire to change lasts.

Do you see how either of these choices is being co-dependent on your part? It's basing your decision on if she truly means what she says or not. For your decision to be based on your wishes, it can't be this kind of decision. " I will do this to make her change" "I won't do this because she now says she will change".  This is your decision to make regardless.

Back to mirroring. Who does this email sound like? She now promised to continue her spiritual growth, but which one of you is into this kind of thing? Now she has your sponsor and your group too. But 12 steps is not a therapy on its own for BPD.

I mention this because my BPD mother also mirrors me. I don't blame her for this. She mirrors her friends as well. If someone doesn't have a strong sense of self, and they want to be liked, they act as if they are what the other person wants them to be. And also guilty as charged. I learned to do this too and people pleasing has been something I have to work on. It's not just done by people with BPD, but also seen with co-dependency.

It's not unusual for couples to have similarities but they are still individuals too. When couples are enmeshed it can feel threatening to acknowledge differences. You may not have equal interest in spirituality. That's OK, not everyone is. But if she thinks you want her to be spiritual and it's not her thing, she may think she needs to act as if it is. And she knows 12 steps is your interest and now she seems to be taking this on too and now is interacting with your sponsor. If you reinforce this by loving the "persona", she doesn't feel accepted for her authentic self either. If you present a false persona to her, you don't feel loved for who you are either.

It's pretty tough being authentic. I don't always succeed with this either. Of course being too transparent is a boundary problem too. People can have their own private thoughts, interests, and certain types of relationships ( such as a work relationship, with a client, or with your sponsor, etc.) do not need to be shared.

[Snowflake90]

Hey TD, no problem, very glad to be of use!
I have reread parts of your thread and it reminds me a lot of my own situation. I did go on a vacation with my ex, though quite a few months before actually leaving home. The vacation of course was actually quite enjoyable and predictably so, it interfered with my decision to leave. Surely going on a vacation, without the everyday hurdles of life will be enjoyable, but that's not real life. The thing is, any relationship that needs a vacation to work is no relationship. Relationships should work just as well on the "boring" day by day routines. They are meant to be fun, stressful at times but surely not an everyday struggle.
I also wanted to add that, just like yours, my ex sent me conflicting messages which confused me. On the one hand there were some nice words, apologies, some recognition of her faults. On the other hand, no actual improvements were made. So I second what has been said over and over, watch what she does not what she says. BPD people are very clever and will often tell you exactly what you want to hear. But on the action department things may not change at all.
Finally I like the trial separation idea. Surely that's your choice and I sure hope not to interfere. But the idea is very sound. You distance yourself from her, both physically and emotionally. In my case although emotionally I was sad, physically I've never felt better. I had enormous trouble sleeping while living with her and in my first night out I slept soundly. I was also constantly "on the edge" while living with her. I couldn't take a deep breath. When at home with my parents, like the day after leaving her I attained some serenity and peace of mind I hadn't felt in 6 years of marriage. Not walking on eggshells is bliss. So my suggestion is, listen to your gut. Not only your emotions (they can betray you at times) but to your body. Do you feel better? The trial separation may just answer that question.
Keep us posted and again, don't be afraid to make mistakes, maybe you will walk back on your decision, maybe you won't. Only you can forge your own path. We are here to share our experiences and tell you what has worked and what hasn't for us.

[babyducks]

It feels like she's being genuine. But I don't know...

when I was first recovering from my abusive relationship I read a lot of Shari Stines PhD.   https://drshariestines.com/  I liked her newsletter.    Years ago Dr. Stine said this:

"She will project her bad behaviors onto you and you will project your good intentions onto her – neither is accurate."

and it hit me like a wallop right between the eyes.    Yes.    that was exactly what was happening.   I kept wanting to think the best of my partner.    I desperately wanted to believe her intentions were good.    I projected all sorts of good intentions onto her.   She wanted to ~get better~.    She wanted the relationship to work.     She cared about my needs and wants.    I projected all that in spite of the evidence that was before my eyes.    I discounted reality and clung to any thing that I could spin as a positive.

It was my experience that I developed a strong loyal attachment to the person who was abusing me.    It wasn't until much later that I learned that this is typical in abusive relationships.   I learned that this is a normal pattern in abusive relationships.   That this desperate projection of good intentions is actually a survival technique.    Its the minds way of protecting us when we feel there is no way to escape.   Its a way to say 'well its not that bad'   or   'its going to get better'.    Its a coping technique.    we all use coping techniques to survive difficult circumstances.   and most times that is fine.     when we sit in a dentist chair we tell ourselves,   'this is almost over',   'its going to be better from here',   or 'this is going really well'.     the truth is we don't know any of that,  we are projecting good intentions and good outcomes to make ourselves feel better.   

in my experience with my pwBPD,  my coping skills quickly went from being a good thing - projecting positive outcomes to make me more emotionally comfortable;  to a bad thing keeping me stuck and enabling an unhealthy  situation.

I would suggest you live in reality, live in the truth - not what you hope it may be or want it to be.    and I would suggest you live in real time, not in what could happen next month or some time in the nebulous future.    Live one decision and one day at a time.

'ducks

[truthdevotee]

Hey TD, no problem, very glad to be of use!
I have reread parts of your thread and it reminds me a lot of my own situation. I did go on a vacation with my ex, though quite a few months before actually leaving home. The vacation of course was actually quite enjoyable and predictably so, it interfered with my decision to leave. Surely going on a vacation, without the everyday hurdles of life will be enjoyable, but that's not real life. The thing is, any relationship that needs a vacation to work is no relationship. Relationships should work just as well on the "boring" day by day routines. They are meant to be fun, stressful at times but surely not an everyday struggle.
I also wanted to add that, just like yours, my ex sent me conflicting messages which confused me. On the one hand there were some nice words, apologies, some recognition of her faults. On the other hand, no actual improvements were made. So I second what has been said over and over, watch what she does not what she says. BPD people are very clever and will often tell you exactly what you want to hear. But on the action department things may not change at all.
Finally I like the trial separation idea. Surely that's your choice and I sure hope not to interfere. But the idea is very sound. You distance yourself from her, both physically and emotionally. In my case although emotionally I was sad, physically I've never felt better. I had enormous trouble sleeping while living with her and in my first night out I slept soundly. I was also constantly "on the edge" while living with her. I couldn't take a deep breath. When at home with my parents, like the day after leaving her I attained some serenity and peace of mind I hadn't felt in 6 years of marriage. Not walking on eggshells is bliss. So my suggestion is, listen to your gut. Not only your emotions (they can betray you at times) but to your body. Do you feel better? The trial separation may just answer that question.
Keep us posted and again, don't be afraid to make mistakes, maybe you will walk back on your decision, maybe you won't. Only you can forge your own path. We are here to share our experiences and tell you what has worked and what hasn't for us.

Thank you so very much for your loving, deeply insightful and supportive post.

It's been a few days since I came to the forum as I've been busy in my new job.

Today is the day that I am to go to the new flat and sign the official contract and pay a significant amount of the money. Over the last few days, I've seen more of her patterns, such as gas lighting, hooking, twisting my words, etc.

There has been one change - she has now started talking to my sponsor.and going to the meeting that I went to. This has forced me to start at CODA, which is something I've had on my mind to do for several months. Additionally, I stopped calling my sponsor a few months ago because I found some of his advice conflicting. He's a great man, but somehow the dynamic changed between us as I came more into listening to my own self, intuitive guidance within, etc. So it's a really good thing that she's gone to those meetings and started talking to my sponsor.

With that said, I don't know if she's doing it just to keep us together. Only time will tell. It seems sudden and forced, but I sense there's something within her that wants to grow, and she appreciates his support towards her which is very loving from him. He's nonjudgmental. I've now started at CODA and will grow and learn so much about my co-dependency issues at those meetings.

Your post helps me this morning as the old fear and doubt started to arise, as today is THE day. Every word of what you wrote is very calming and helps me keep things in perspective.

Despite the change of her going to meetings now, I don't think it's enough, because her covert manipulation is very ingrained. And a tell tale sign that true change isn't occurring is that SHE STILL won't reveal the details of her bank account, even in this opportunity to create increased trust and transparency in our relationship. It's not about the money for me, it's about the hiding. She still won't say what she has stored away.

So I sense it's time for me to go for the new flat 100%. It's a scary step, but one that will be a learning process. Yesterday she said that if I do it she will give up all her efforts as I will be destroying what I've built. These are just words of hers that may or may not be true. I just need to listen to my inner world to help guide me through this, and not focus on her. That's an addiction of mine - focusing on her and her growth.

The main doubt that arises is actually a financial one. The money I could save by staying in the same flat as hers. But emotional freedom is priceless - the truth of inner freedom, increased happiness, love... it's all beyond money, and even in these last few days as I stopped physical and emotional contact with her, my physical symptoms such as pain in my left knee (arthritis, at age 35!) has gone... I feel so much more energy to give to the boys - joy, playing, fun, happiness, laughter! It's amazing... and it comes from establishing that boundary of distance.

I hope she is OK. It's often tough to see her in grief. But I must remember I'm not "doing it to her." That would be me playing God. It's important for me to be kind and loving and with good will to all of life, but not at the expense of honoring myself. If a tough decision is made such as renting this new flat, without her approval and triggering grief for her, I must remember that's the process she needs to work through and I'm not responsible for "causing" it.

[truthdevotee]

when I was first recovering from my abusive relationship I read a lot of Shari Stines PhD.   https://drshariestines.com/  I liked her newsletter.    Years ago Dr. Stine said this:

Thanks so much for this link! I am looking forward to digging in and learning.

and it hit me like a wallop right between the eyes.    Yes.    that was exactly what was happening.   I kept wanting to think the best of my partner.    I desperately wanted to believe her intentions were good.    I projected all sorts of good intentions onto her.   She wanted to ~get better~.    She wanted the relationship to work.     She cared about my needs and wants.    I projected all that in spite of the evidence that was before my eyes.    I discounted reality and clung to any thing that I could spin as a positive.

It was my experience that I developed a strong loyal attachment to the person who was abusing me.    It wasn't until much later that I learned that this is typical in abusive relationships.   I learned that this is a normal pattern in abusive relationships.   That this desperate projection of good intentions is actually a survival technique.    Its the minds way of protecting us when we feel there is no way to escape.   Its a way to say 'well its not that bad'   or   'its going to get better'.    Its a coping technique.    we all use coping techniques to survive difficult circumstances.   and most times that is fine.     when we sit in a dentist chair we tell ourselves,   'this is almost over',   'its going to be better from here',   or 'this is going really well'.     the truth is we don't know any of that,  we are projecting good intentions and good outcomes to make ourselves feel better.   

in my experience with my pwBPD,  my coping skills quickly went from being a good thing - projecting positive outcomes to make me more emotionally comfortable;  to a bad thing keeping me stuck and enabling an unhealthy  situation.

I would suggest you live in reality, live in the truth - not what you hope it may be or want it to be.    and I would suggest you live in real time, not in what could happen next month or some time in the nebulous future.    Live one decision and one day at a time.

'ducks

Thank you so much for sharing all of this... so deep and insightful.

Tremendously grateful for your support.

[truthdevotee]

It's done. I signed the contract, transferred all services e.g. gas, electricity, etc., paid the security deposit and my first month's rent.

I feel light anxiety, nervousness regarding exactly how it will work with the boys. The dream of the intact family is still within me, but there was never an "intact" family in the first place. My relationship with my partner with BPD wasn't based on mutuality, equality, trust, freedom and authenticity.

I got myself into it, I grew to start finding the way out. I've joined CODA now and had my first meeting last night. The literature is perfect, the traits of co-dependency are in me. Without my Higher Power I could never have done this, without the support of my groups and sponsors and teachers.

What will happen? I don't know, but I keep in mind the possibility of getting back together with her, depending on improvements. If I've made a mistake, which is possible, what's the worst that happened? The worst is the loss of a significant amount of money. But it's a risk worth taking, because emotional peace, freedom and healing, are worth infinitely more than a bit of worldly cash.

[Snowflake90]

Again, very glad to be of help.
When I was just leaving, my ex was also on an "up trend". Just the night before she was reading a book of child stories to my eldest son. She very rarely did that. All the while I was just thinking "My Goodness, am I really going to destroy this? Maybe she IS getting better". Yet this is nothing but a fallacy. We're not the "destroyers" here (that's just such a shameful gaslighting technique), we're the firefighters, the rescue crew, who comes in the aftermath of an earthquake caused by them.
Looking at that single moment alone, all would seem like a big mistake. But on the wider picture, a month before she threw herself in front of moving cars and thought it was fun (kinda like not caring about how I'd feel about that). Only a week before she self harmed real bad and caused a lot of distress to the whole family. As cold and harsh as it sounds, her reading a book to my son that night, was all but a show. Almost like an "apology", but certainly not a true recovery. In fact, that was a recurring theme. She screwed up, then to "apologize" she'd stay more with the family, be more loving, etc. It takes guts to break the romanticizing, but it's the right thing to do. If you need a "reality check" you can post here or talk to a trusted friend and people will say whether that's normal or not, whether that's recovery or not. Her not sharing her bank account with you shows complete lack of trust in you, or worse, she's hiding something. Her saying if you leave her you will ruin her recovery is manipulation. If she truly wants to get better, that's regardless of you.
Wishing you best of luck in your journey. And again, try to take the burden off your shoulders. Take your time off, cooldown and you'll start seeing things for what they truly are, and then be able to calmly make decisions.

[Cat Familiar]

Great response from Snowflake 

You can look at renting the flat as a *trial separation* —however it turns out, it’s definitely not a mistake.

It’s up to your wife if she takes the path of trying to improve herself for the sake of the relationship. If so, then after a year, which is a good length of time to see if the improved behavior is sustainable, you can decide to remain in the relationship or not.

It may be that she improves somewhat, but you realize that’s not enough for a healthy relationship. Or she might make considerable improvement, which could make you want to reunite with her. Or she may make no improvement at all, or get worse. Only time will tell.

[ForeverDad]

There has been one change - she has now started talking to my sponsor and going to the meeting that I went to.

If she were truly seeking to improve, talking to your sponsor might not be a bad thing.  But the concern we have is that she may be, whether consciously or unconsciously, trying to weaken your accounts and switch the sponsor into being one of her advocates to some extent.  As long as you're aware.

[truthdevotee]

Again, very glad to be of help.
When I was just leaving, my ex was also on an "up trend". Just the night before she was reading a book of child stories to my eldest son. She very rarely did that. All the while I was just thinking "My Goodness, am I really going to destroy this? Maybe she IS getting better". Yet this is nothing but a fallacy. We're not the "destroyers" here (that's just such a shameful gaslighting technique), we're the firefighters, the rescue crew, who comes in the aftermath of an earthquake caused by them.
Looking at that single moment alone, all would seem like a big mistake. But on the wider picture, a month before she threw herself in front of moving cars and thought it was fun (kinda like not caring about how I'd feel about that). Only a week before she self harmed real bad and caused a lot of distress to the whole family. As cold and harsh as it sounds, her reading a book to my son that night, was all but a show. Almost like an "apology", but certainly not a true recovery. In fact, that was a recurring theme. She screwed up, then to "apologize" she'd stay more with the family, be more loving, etc. It takes guts to break the romanticizing, but it's the right thing to do. If you need a "reality check" you can post here or talk to a trusted friend and people will say whether that's normal or not, whether that's recovery or not. Her not sharing her bank account with you shows complete lack of trust in you, or worse, she's hiding something. Her saying if you leave her you will ruin her recovery is manipulation. If she truly wants to get better, that's regardless of you.
Wishing you best of luck in your journey. And again, try to take the burden off your shoulders. Take your time off, cooldown and you'll start seeing things for what they truly are, and then be able to calmly make decisions.

Thank you so much again. Amazing and deep insights for me, transformative.

[truthdevotee]

Great response from Snowflake 

You can look at renting the flat as a *trial separation* —however it turns out, it’s definitely not a mistake.

It’s up to your wife if she takes the path of trying to improve herself for the sake of the relationship. If so, then after a year, which is a good length of time to see if the improved behavior is sustainable, you can decide to remain in the relationship or not.

It may be that she improves somewhat, but you realize that’s not enough for a healthy relationship. Or she might make considerable improvement, which could make you want to reunite with her. Or she may make no improvement at all, or get worse. Only time will tell.

Thank you Cat... your message brings me a calm, realistic and balanced perspective... feels like a great decision that I went ahead with the rental.

[truthdevotee]

If she were truly seeking to improve, talking to your sponsor might not be a bad thing.  But the concern we have is that she may be, whether consciously or unconsciously, trying to weaken your accounts and switch the sponsor into being one of her advocates to some extent.  As long as you're aware.

Thank you ForeverDad. This is really, really important. I'm aware of the potential for this to happen. My primary sponsor now is someone else, someone I trust much more than the sponsor that expwBPD is talking with now. Additionally, I've joined CODA and will have another sponsor hopefully, and meet new sharing partners. All of you here are my sponsors too. I'm very grateful for that. The sponsor that my ex is now talking to is someone I deeply love, but over the years, our relationship changed. We share at the same meeting and now and again I seek his guidance, but over the years, I felt unsafe in some situations because I didn't feel he grasped the essence of certain situations, and his advice often seemed one-dimensional and rigid. His influence on my life was tremendous; he was my "first father" - my first father figure that truly cared for me and helped me to develop masculine values (he is a veteran). However, as mentioned, this changed and I stopped calling him directly; we'd just share at meetings and by email. I stopped seeking his direct help about my expwBPD about 3 or 4 years ago. His advice was sometimes confusing, inconsistent, and frustrating.

About a year ago I found out that he was diagnosed with bi-polar. This made so much sense regarding the frustrations I grew to have with him, and confirmed to me that I can trust my inner feelings and perspectives. Sometimes I still feel he hasn't really "owned" his diagnosis, but progressively he may do do... so, I'm cautious around him even though he's a great fellow, a dedicated spiritual devotee and great to talk to - charismatic. However, as I grew, the dynamic I had with him wasn't working for me anymore (i.e. sergeant - solider type relationship). I learned a lot from that dynamic; I learned the importance of self-discipline, of dedication and of developing inner strength. As I grew, this wasn't what I needed anymore.

Now, my primary sponsor is someone who is deeply, deeply insightful, unconditionally loving and a wise teacher. She is helping me to come into my true self - to listen to my heart, thoughts, perspectives. Ultimately, self-trust, and helping me to get out of this negative relationship pattern with my ex. She provides information and is very loving, but there's no superior/inferior dynamic between her and I, which I really appreciate now.

So... the exposure of my expwBPD with this ex-sponsor of mine is good because he is sincerely devoted to his and others growth, and his character is such that he can really inspire others to get onto the path of self-growth, to take responsibility for their lives, and he's got a big heart... despite the downsides I mentioned about him and his lack of capacity sometimes to see the intricacies of things and sometimes lacks patience and compassion with people... he's got a big heart - and I can see he's having a good impact on her and will help her to get through this process over the next year.

That said, there's still a big chance that he becomes her advocate. Yet, since I'm getting stronger and have the support of this group and my current sponsor, and CODA, I am developing much stronger self-trust that my perceptions and intuitions and insights about BPD and my wife's behavior. I feel protected. My ex-sponsor would also make me doubt my own perceptions... now I'm in a place where I can talk to him candidly and directly and not from an "inferior" position.

Now I've stepped away from those meetings and don't call him, the main correspondence we have is via email which is usually in CC with a lot of other people in the same group, including my own sponsor, who helps me to escape the dynamic I had with him.

[truthdevotee]

I'm excited to discover CODA and start going to meetings for the first time. The purpose of the group is more what I need. I needed it years ago, but it's only now that I've taken the step because the meetings I went to my ex is going to. It seems to serve the Highest Good. I had my frustrations with the meetings anyway; CODA is a lot more structured and a much larger group.

My ex-sponsor has less influence over my life now. Part of growing stronger is actually to escape that dynamic with him where I should listen to everything he thinks and says. I'm well into that process now. It's actually the same dynamic I had with my ex!

So... thank you for raising this... it's a big point and it could still happen... but I talk to him quite little now and only in group emails. The experience, strength and hope of this group, CODA and my current sponsor is where I'm looking.

[Notwendy]

12 step groups, and sponsors, can take on different focuses. While they all adhere to the steps as a basis, they are still lay groups, and sponsors are lay people too. Even with professionals, sometimes people find one therapist is a better fit than another.

I have attended CODA and ACA groups. What is interesting is that some members started out in groups focused on addiction, such as AA groups. The focus of these groups tended to be getting the person sober from the addiction. That's the most concerning issue.  Later though, some members wanted to work on the issues that influenced them to become addicts- such as co-dependency and family of origin issues and so moved to the CODA, and ACA groups. Some continue to attend both.

I think it is good that you have a different sponsor than the one your partner is talking to, and one you feel will be more helpful to you. I also think having a separate group from your partner is a good thing too so you can have your own space in it.

[truthdevotee]

Started to read a book. The author is strong and is good at highlighting the patterns that might occur with a narcissist. I'm not sure if it would completely apply to a borderline, but the advice mirrors what we talked about in this thread:

They are a lot of fancy talk that sounds wonderful, but their actions don’t match up. Do NOT listen to people watch what they do. Actions are where you will find the truth. No matter what happens, it’s never their fault. They usually have a couple of tactics to never be accountable. It could be switching the subject to something you did wrong and using it to make you feel guilty. Your valid inner concern never gets addressed as they lead you in circles. OR they look sorry and promise to change, which happens for a short period of the “love bombing” phase. Once you are back on their hook, the old patterns, lies, and manipulations come back as they “discard and devalue you” once again. They were never sincere in their promises. It’s just our desire to want to believe them that is sincere.

[babyducks]

  It’s just our desire to want to believe them that is sincere.

I think it is okay to want to believe the best of people.    its okay to hope for better.   its not okay to do that at our own expense.    some where there is a line.     where hope and trust have to switch to self care and self truth.

[truthdevotee]

If she were truly seeking to improve, talking to your sponsor might not be a bad thing.  But the concern we have is that she may be, whether consciously or unconsciously, trying to weaken your accounts and switch the sponsor into being one of her advocates to some extent.  As long as you're aware.

This appears to be happening.

My ex-sponsor wrote me two emails tonight. They were scary and boundary-crossing. I only read the first sentence or two of each one. I replied to let him know that I felt really unsafe and won't read further.

I'm learning to trust my gut response. I had some help from my current sponsor, who agreed that the emails were boundary-crossing:

Oh wow, yes, it is unsolicited "shaming of a foot soldier” and crossing boundaries, as you are learning in CODA meetings. You are not standing in a cesspool! Far from it.

The foot-solider comment is because my ex-sponsor and I had a superior/inferior relationship. He taught me a lot about discipline, but sometimes lacked respect. I listened and avoided revealing my personal inner truths due to fear of his disapproval.

I'm so happy to have safe meetings to go to now - CODA. I love CODA. I love the sharing and the safety and the respect for the rules. In the old meetings with my ex-sponsor, there was too much cross-talk and even "sharing guidance" felt like unsolicited advice-giving.

Setting boundaries tonight with my ex-sponsor was such a big step. I felt a lot of anxiety doing it and after doing it. I invited him to call me by phone if he'd like to engage in mutual and loving conversation. I shared about my anxiety at the CODA meeting and it helped me to come to balance.

She's talking to him a lot now, and it's clear from his emails tonight that he's influenced strongly by her. I see this as OK. I'm grateful to my Higher Power that I have all the support I need; this forum, my loving sponsor who encourages me to listen inwardly, and CODA. I'm seeking a new sponsor too at CODA.

It's OK because I see that I attracted it into my life. As someone who lacked any sort of inner trust and with my self-worth issues, I've attracted strong personalities into my life including my expwBPD and my ex-sponsor. They're coming from the opposite side of the coin to me - the other side of the inbalance. Where I'm self-doubting, they're overly confident.

I see that they're just a reflection of what I believed about myself, and that I don't need to believe that anymore. I can learn to love myself, to care for myself, to listen and to trust myself, and to do so especially when people appear to be telling me how to live my life and what actions to take.

A couple of days ago, he wrote another email which was less intense but which told me to stay with my expwBPD. I reminded him that it's a trial separation but I guess he's not really listening and absorbing what I'm saying.

In essence, I'm learning just to trust myself. It feels scary and I think the boundary setting with my ex-sponsor is even more scary than the boundary-crossing with my expwBPD. That's because I put him on a pedestal, as a teacher that must know better than me how to live my life, that must be key to my connection to being a good person, etc. So much of my self-esteem depended on him. And so now I've set that boundary, it's a big step and even though I avoided reading all of his email because it was too triggering for me, I could feel he's somehow not happy about my growing sense of self.

He was diagnosed with bi-polar last year so perhaps this reflects some of his issues. I touched his heart and gave him so much praise and gratitude over the years which was heartfelt, but I also dishonored myself by not speaking my truth. I may therefore have catered to his ego and now that I'm moving out of that pattern, he doesn't like it.

[Cat Familiar]

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[truthdevotee]

Thank you, Cat.

My ex-sponsor wrote me, it hit me quite hard, but I responded to him with strength and courage, trying to tip the balance so that we have the chance of an equal relationship.

I've put him on my block list for the next week, so I don't need to read emails from him which feel very unsafe. I will continue to go to CODA every day if I can. I'm grateful for that healing space.

My email to him may have been crossing boundaries in response, to a certain extent. I don't want to do that. That's why I've put him on my block list for now, because I'm too triggered by it all.

It's hard for me because I put him as a sort of teacher figure, on a pedestal in my mind. That's a dangerous place to put a human being - as a sort of God figure. As a result, I experience fear even reading his emails and responding to him - I suppose it's my inner child that is afraid of punishment. I really want to heal this, and I think my email to him represents the beginning of healing.

I had the same situation with a teacher a few years ago, and I ended up crashing into tremendous pain after he said some things to me, because I didn't have the means to protect myself. Now I'm learning to protect myself by telling my truth and refusing to accept things which aren't true for me.

My sponsor said that it was a good step.

Here is the email from my ex-sponsor:

I had a clear distinct dream where we were all discussing this and although I have been prompted again and again to share this information I was reluctant knowing full well what your reaction would be. However last night it was way too strong and I was almost in a dream state sending this to you. Sometime in the future you may understand more of how you are helping us all. I went through all of this 25 years ago I know exactly what you are experiencing feeling and going through. It is not easy but it can be. Do not worry you are protected.

Please do not murder me. I only have 10 years left.

Hang in there XYZ' boy we want you to be successful at your job so we can all get parts of your money!

You may someday be running this company. Just think of all the p*** we can see. We love you much.

We all would have fallen off of our chairs onto the ground had you accepted what we said the fact that you reject all of that means that we are all on the right path. And the fact that I can tell you with all sincerity and you are the smartest one in the room. Just like your buddy Barack Obama.

Isn't Divine guidance screen great great and great again.

Thank you for being in my life and helping me so much. What would I do without you.?

[Notwendy]

That's a strange email.

Since you mentioned bi polar, it made me wonder if he's in a manic state with his "dreams" and ideas. His thinking you will be running the company if only you accept your position in some plan?

While you did idolize him, consider that sponsors are lay people. Nobody certifies them. The only training they have is going through the steps themselves. Yes, we do put trust in the sponsors, but sometimes it's not a good fit. We all bring our own stuff into the group.

I got very lucky and my experience with a sponsor was different. Unfortunately, she moved right after we were finished with the steps. The sponsor needs to have boundaries as well. This is not the same as a friendship, although the love is there- it was tough love for me and she turned the mirror on me a lot. She did not tell me what to do about staying or leaving in any relationship- it was about working the steps. One exercise she has me to was to write down the names of all the people I was angry at, and then showed me where resentment was on my part- it wasn't about the other people. It wasn't about her either. She did not get emotionally involved in my relationships.  This "what would I do without you?" " We love you" is creepy and FOG inducing.

I agree that the tendency to trust and put people on a pedestal can attract people who seem to like being in a power position. I have done the same thing myself. But your sponsor needs to have a strong enough self image to recognize this, and help their sponsee work on their own self image. I am not saying your sponsor did this on purpose and his own mental illness may be a part of this and emotionally he may have felt a match with you too, but a sponsor relationship is different.

If a sponsor doesn't seem to be working out for someone, they can stop this kind of relationship and the other way around.

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with Notwendy. This is a bizarre communication.

Even mentally ill people can offer helpful insight from time to time, but it’s best to be mindful about carefully vetting their advice. However, that he has a diagnosed mental disorder gives me pause. I’m certain I would not want to take advice from such a person.

Many of us have had very close relationships with people with mental disorders and we can too easily allow them undue influence out of friendship and love.

Reading that email, the first thing that comes to mind is that the author is not an emotionally healthy individual.

[truthdevotee]

Thank you both for sharing. Helps me tremendously.

I've put my ex-sponsor on my block list the time being so I don't need to see emails. Feel much more peaceful today.

I'm scared my expwbpd will infiltrate another spiritual group i'm a part of. One I deeply trust and have been a member of for nearly 10 years.

The possibility of her appearing there is because 2 of the members are also a part of the 12 step group I left, due to my ex starting to attend (the same one that my ex sponsor is a part of). Its possible that they would invite her to the other one. I'm good friends with one of those 2 members I mention. I don't know if it's appropriate to mention to him that I'd like to keep that particular group a safe place for me, therefore not to invite her in.

That may just be too controlling on my side. I don't know. I'm praying about it. It could also be that my good friend doesn't understand BPD and it could backfire and look like selfishness on my part.

[Notwendy]

Don't worry about how it looks- self care isn't selfish and if they think that, then maybe that's not a place you wish to be.

A safe way to express your wishes is to make this about you, not her. They don't need to understand BPD because you don't need to tell them about it. You can still wish for privacy as an individual. Even someone who is happily married can also wish to have their own private spiritual space.

If you don't express your wishes, then they may think it's OK to invite her. If they do know your wishes, then they have the choice. If they invite her anyway, then you know they didn't consider your wishes. So one way to do it is to only focus on your wish.

You could, if you choose, say to "dear friend". "As you probably know, my wife and I are currently separated. She has reached out to the 12 step group and I hope that this is of benefit to her. However, due to the situation, it's important to me to have a space to connect with you that is separate from her. I truly value the connections in this (name of group) and wish to keep them just between us. Please let me know if you are willing to do this. Thank you. "

The next question though is- can you feel comfortable speaking in the group knowing they are in contact with her? I find that my BPD mother tends to see people on "her side" or "not her side" and draw people to her side. For the people connected to her, I have to consider that anything I say to them is going to be shared with her. I don't share personal information with them because of this. I have seen it happen many times. While I know you value the group, it may be better for you to have a connection with people who are not connected with her at all.

My BPD mother tends to triangulate with people- tell them things about me and make it "their secret". I am cordial and polite to people in her circle, but I keep them at an emotional distance.

Sadly, I have lost connections with people over this, and yet, I have to consider that they make their choices too. We can't control what someone else thinks.

[mitten]

Thank you both for sharing. Helps me tremendously.

Hey truthdevotee.  It's been awhile since you've posted so just wanted to see how you were doing?  Hope all is well.   

[truthdevotee]

Hi all,

I was posting here a couple of years ago.

I got my own flat which I was renting for 3 months, leaving the person I believed had high-functioning BPD. Sadly, I self-sabatoged due to finding out about sexual/romantic feelings between her and my old 12 step sponsor. Ironically, my defense mechanism was to run back to her and be submissive and say that I made a mistake to get my own flat.

Things only got progressively worse. I ended up hospitalized for 10 days due to self-harm, threatening suicide, and in general I started to display BPD symptoms. She never actually displayed this - she is more of a high-functioning type, extremely controlling and dominant, as opposed to me - I'm naturally submissive and subject to doubt and inner weakness.

My behavior has devolved into deep anger and frustration. I have been verbally abusive, sadly for a few months (never devolved into physical violence, except in the form of cutting towards myself, thank God). This is not who I am or who I ever was, and I'm working on mindfulness and self-compassion as taught by Kristin Neff, to help deal with these issues and heal myself. Also have a therapist and spiritual group.

It has been such a difficult time. And, after a soul-destroying two difficult years, I realize with strong certainty that I need to do what I did then but I need to follow-through this time. I am looking for a flat and don't intend to turn back.

I've come back to this forum not to learn more about BPD; I learned a lot about that, and I recognize it in myself as well as in her. But I am clear that I am on a healing path and I am determined not to self-sabotage this time. I'm looking for a new flat.

I have two boys, 6 and 4 years old. Their mother who likely has high-functioning BPD is not well either, and the difference between her and I is that I want to separate in a cooperative collaborative way. Sadly, she is not up for this arrangement at all. It means things are going to be VERY complex. I am 50/50 as to whether she would try to eliminate me from the boys' life, but I am prepared to involve a lawyer and fight as needed.

However, the difference right now is, I am ready to do what I need to do. Find an apartment is step 1. Step 2 is how to break this news to the boys and what it might mean, before involving her. She is likely to say all kinds of horrible things about me to my children. Therefore I think I need to be strategic. I believe our 6 year old will be OK, but 4 year old is sensitive and may react with crying and trying to keep me at the flat. I'm gonna have to be strong and make the most difficult step of my life.

Open to your guidance on how to go through this in the best way for the kids, knowing that she will be very negative about me to them and use them as a tool to try to keep me around. I sense the best way will be to tell them before she is aware of it all, talk to them, tell them that I am always here for them and that I love them, and that Daddy needs to sleep in another flat which is close by, and wants to see them still every day. I think then I should leave and tell her by text message that this is what is happening (no conversations have been possible for 10 years, there is no capacity for alignment sadly). I will clearly state when and how I would like the new arrangement to work. If she refuses to align with the plan, and comes up with no other plan, I think I'll need to be strong and accept that I will not have close contact with the kids for a while until the lawyers/courts help us come to arrangement.

Does this sound like a plan?

[truthdevotee]

Hey truthdevotee.  It's been awhile since you've posted so just wanted to see how you were doing?  Hope all is well.   

Thanks so much for asking mitten. I self-sabotaged, hence my disappearance.

[Cat Familiar]

Well, you’re back now, and with a plan. It would be good to get a consultation with a lawyer before you make any moves, to find out what your parental rights are and how that can be affected should you leave.

[ForeverDad]

I would be cautious about telling your children first.  Or at least when.  It's very possible they would say something that would alert your spouse before you're ready.  They may not understand why not to tell mommy.  Well, that's what came to my mind.

Lots of dads sabotage themselves somewhat because society expects kids to live with their mothers.  But your situation involves a mental health issue so that default inclination for many jurisdictions can leave you on the outside looking in, so to speak.

So ponder with your lawyer if there are any ways to leave with the children, or at least get a firm parenting schedule in place or filed with the court.