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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #180 on: August 25, 2021, 08:13:29 AM »

I don't know about the other aspects but the stay away from other women (for now) is important whether or not you stay with your current partner. Entering a new relationship while you still have emotional work to do with the current one is risky for more dysfunction.

It's your relationship, and we as outsiders can't decide on whether to stay or leave. It's really up to you to decide how you wish to proceed.
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #181 on: August 25, 2021, 08:18:07 AM »

I don't know about the other aspects but the stay away from other women (for now) is important whether or not you stay with your current partner. Entering a new relationship while you still have emotional work to do with the current one is risky for more dysfunction.

It's your relationship, and we as outsiders can't decide on whether to stay or leave. It's really up to you to decide how you wish to proceed.

Thanks Notwendy.

Learning the art of self-trust and living a self-directed life. It's tough... Accountability for one's decisions. I'm just learning to be an adult, hehe.

Yes, no intention to enter into another relationship.

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truthdevotee
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« Reply #182 on: August 25, 2021, 08:34:56 AM »

My unconscious is holding on. There's just this feeling in me, which I'm both aware of and frustrated by. On another level I wish I did not continue to hold on to and be subject to her toxic behavior. I get so tired by it. Why do I put myself through it unconsciously?
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #183 on: August 25, 2021, 09:57:49 AM »

Talked to my sponsor. Feel less confused now.
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #184 on: August 25, 2021, 10:28:05 AM »

Let me say up front that we understand where you're coming from.  You're trying to find a middle ground and hoping your partner will agree.  But that's your emotions hoping that appeasing her can work.  This is more than "I need a quiet place so I can work."

I wrote more but deleted it since it seems you may be inclined to stay in the relationship.  Or find it so stressful to decide.  What you're contemplating is having one foot still in the relationship.  The downside is that lets her continue to pressure you by her inconsistent moods and rules.

I also deleted what I was going to write about my own experiences but it got really complicated.  So I'll summarize.  In brief, two people can't be in a healthy close relationship if it is also a dysfunctional one.  Healthy and dysfunctional aren't compatible.  It can't be like two guys who are buddies or two gals who chat together or go shopping together.

You are in the middle of scenarios where she bounces between hating you and seeking intimacy with you.  It seems your change is only helping with your work and daycare, all the other pressures would continue to exist.  For example, no need to say the kids still sleep there (item 4) if you're going to sleep there too.  Actually, it would imply she's in charge of parenting and could sabotage you in the future.

Edit:  I just read your sponsor spoke with you.  In what ways are you less confused?

I too wanted my relationship, my marriage, to succeed.  I believed failure was not an option.  Same here, just about everyone here tried to make things work in their own relationships.  Dealing with acting-out disordered people is a monumental challenge.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 10:37:06 AM by ForeverDad » Logged

truthdevotee
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« Reply #185 on: August 25, 2021, 11:25:46 AM »

Let me say up front that we understand where you're coming from.  You're trying to find a middle ground and hoping your partner will agree.  But that's your emotions hoping that appeasing her can work.  This is more than "I need a quiet place so I can work."

I wrote more but deleted it since it seems you may be inclined to stay in the relationship.  Or find it so stressful to decide.  What you're contemplating is having one foot still in the relationship.  The downside is that lets her continue to pressure you by her inconsistent moods and rules.

I also deleted what I was going to write about my own experiences but it got really complicated.  So I'll summarize.  In brief, two people can't be in a healthy close relationship if it is also a dysfunctional one.  Healthy and dysfunctional aren't compatible.  It can't be like two guys who are buddies or two gals who chat together or go shopping together.

You are in the middle of scenarios where she bounces between hating you and seeking intimacy with you.  It seems your change is only helping with your work and daycare, all the other pressures would continue to exist.  For example, no need to say the kids still sleep there (item 4) if you're going to sleep there too.  Actually, it would imply she's in charge of parenting and could sabotage you in the future.

Edit:  I just read your sponsor spoke with you.  In what ways are you less confused?

I too wanted my relationship, my marriage, to succeed.  I believed failure was not an option.  Same here, just about everyone here tried to make things work in their own relationships.  Dealing with acting-out disordered people is a monumental challenge.

Thank you ForeverDad.

Your post brings me more clarity.

This one foot in, one foot out... the source of it is this hope... being afraid of giving up on the "dream" of it working and re-establishing myself by stepping out of my comfort zone. I think it's just fear I'm dealing with. Fear of making the step into unfamiliar territory.

I am certain I tried everything to fix things over many years. I'm certain that the ultimate solution is to distance myself. So, perhaps this "hope" that I'm experiencing is just on the surface, and deep down I just need to confront my fears. Fear of what the children will feel. Fear of losing the "dream" that it could have worked out. Fear that I'm just "crazy" and it's all made up in my head.

Writing this is really helpful for me... helps me recontextualize "hope." I've heard it said that there are, ultimately, only two emotions: love and fear. Through this lens, I'm just fearful of stepping out into the unknown. I just realized that there is fear of the being the primary caregiver - fear of not having the "mother" there. Wow... there's a certain comfort in having her next to me, despite how hurtful and dysfunctional her behavior is.

To summarize... I figure I'm just dealing with fear! Because I know I tried everything, I KNOW I'm not happy, I know I want change, etc. These are the things I KNOW. The rest is just fear expressing itself.

My sponsor helped me a lot by reexamining everything that has happened. He's good at seeing the essence of things, and sees her behavior as it is and her unwillingness to change and heal.

This has been such a helpful reflection... it's all fear... I'm dealing with my own fears here... beyond fear there is only happiness at the idea of moving away from her.
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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #186 on: August 25, 2021, 01:00:05 PM »

Take a deep breath and stop. Don’t send this until you think about it. Get feedback from parents who’ve been through separations, divorce, and custody disputes.

Take your time. Think deeply how this might impact your future. Sleep on it. Do not act in haste.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
truthdevotee
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« Reply #187 on: August 25, 2021, 01:16:54 PM »

Take a deep breath and stop. Don’t send this until you think about it. Get feedback from parents who’ve been through separations, divorce, and custody disputes.

Take your time. Think deeply how this might impact your future. Sleep on it. Do not act in haste.

Thank you Cat. I'll work slowly and cautiously.

Haven't said anything to her yet.

Since I recognize this continued sort of toxic hope is unconscious fear, I feel more ready.

Ill wait before I say anything.
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #188 on: August 25, 2021, 02:58:52 PM »

She wants to go to the mountains this weekend and I don't want to go. She's threatening to take our younger son by car and therefore separate the boys.

I don't want her to take him but I'm not sure what I can do.
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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #189 on: August 25, 2021, 03:38:13 PM »

What about separating the boys bothers you? Won’t that be a regular occurrence when the older one is in school?
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #190 on: August 25, 2021, 03:48:01 PM »

What about separating the boys bothers you? Won’t that be a regular occurrence when the older one is in school?

I don't know why it bothers me. Maybe I should revise my thought on this...

She isn't an experienced driver but that's not what bothers me as much as her willingness to separate them when they enjoy each others company so much. But yeah, they are often separated when he's at school, except for evenings.

She'll likely tell the older one that he can't come because daddy doesn't want to.
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #191 on: August 25, 2021, 03:57:18 PM »

She started saying things like I have a sick brain, that I'm unstable due to changes in medication, etc.

Everything she said was scary because I see she'd be willing to use anything, and avoid any and all self reflection.

Everything she said about me was a reflection of her. It was pure gaslighting, trying to get me to doubt my own mind and experiences, telling me I'm 100% the problem.
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« Reply #192 on: August 25, 2021, 04:21:05 PM »

So now that you’ve heard that, how does it affect your thought of sending her that email?
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #193 on: August 25, 2021, 04:42:59 PM »

DearTD, you want to protect the boys from the pain of your separation,  you want her to change. You are afraid of bring a single father.
The boy you want to protect is your inner child.  Loving yourself is the way out of this bind the day you decide you are worthy of peace in the home.. I find when I act really dysfunctionally I am acting out a story from my inner child that the adult me has silenced. As I make my peace with it the repetition compulsion loses its power over me.
Your wife will not change without therapy. She doesn't want therapy. To imagine she will is magical thinking. I want to see her go to the mountains alone with a child.Long on talk, short on action (helping herself to your money seems to be her only consistent action). You can't change her, only your response to her behaviour.  
In the meantime does she rage at you in front of the boys? Is that their daily reality? Your tiredness is real. Amygdala hijack, cortisol overload, and then the tiredness as your body seeks to emerge from flight or fight state.  Chronic PTSD is real, and for your boys a normal state of being, like it was for you when little.  Only you can break the generational cycle.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #194 on: August 26, 2021, 05:36:43 AM »

So now that you’ve heard that, how does it affect your thought of sending her that email?

It's horrible... and it makes me want to separate completely.

And yet, here she writes this morning, that she reached out to my sponsor (without telling me) and feels like she's on the "right path."

"I know I called you many times by bad names. I know I did say bad things about your family of origin. I know things went wrong many times. I do not want to excuse myself but I was in my lower energy self.
Also there were lots of things beautiful. I really deeply love you and care for you. I really want to fix the relationship with your family of origin.
Please let me show you that I am not the kind of person I used to be. I was inoccently uneducated in this regard. Please forgive me.
I see you do not trust me anymore. It is very painful.
I am very much prepared to take charge with the boys during days when you need to work and heal yourself. Also when they are sick I will be there for them.
The control dynamic - withholding resources, information about money. I want to get a help with resolving the finances. That both of us feel comfortable about. That there is no hiding and withdrawing from any sides.
It very much hurts because I am always here for you! I surrender the holidays although it would give me tremendous energy that I can give you and the boys.
I love to give you energy and the boys. I know my energy very much drops down recently from all the tremor when I know what is going on and still do not know. I love to serve you and to the boys.
I hit the bottom that I had to receive help. Thanks to introduce me to your sponsor. I feel I am on the right path.
I need to be with myself and reflect on what have I done and what to improve. Please keep this flat. This is yours and boys home. My intuition is to leave for a while. You can get a nanny or any necessary help. You do not have to pay for extra flat."


My reflections:
She says she'd leave for a while but she has nowhere to go. So it's not a solution. Therefore I should rent the flat, which I am already doing anyway. She makes the promise to look after the boys - yes, but in the moment she's stressed, all her promises fly out of the window. I can't trust it.

I think there's a small part of her that is open to growth. She's obviously struggling. Yet, when she starts splitting, there's complete loss of memory of the part of her that is writing that email.
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #195 on: August 26, 2021, 05:41:00 AM »

DearTD, you want to protect the boys from the pain of your separation,  you want her to change. You are afraid of bring a single father.
The boy you want to protect is your inner child.  Loving yourself is the way out of this bind the day you decide you are worthy of peace in the home.. I find when I act really dysfunctionally I am acting out a story from my inner child that the adult me has silenced. As I make my peace with it the repetition compulsion loses its power over me.

Thank you... it's good to remember this is about my inner child that needs love and understanding and guidance.

Excerpt
Your wife will not change without therapy. She doesn't want therapy. To imagine she will is magical thinking. I want to see her go to the mountains alone with a child.Long on talk, short on action (helping herself to your money seems to be her only consistent action). You can't change her, only your response to her behaviour.  

Yes, she didn't go to the mountains. It was all talk. As soon as I left the flat last night (slept in a hotel), she shifted from the splitting into exhaustion... In that exhausted state she can't do anything...

Excerpt
In the meantime does she rage at you in front of the boys? Is that their daily reality? Your tiredness is real. Amygdala hijack, cortisol overload, and then the tiredness as your body seeks to emerge from flight or fight state.  Chronic PTSD is real, and for your boys a normal state of being, like it was for you when little.  Only you can break the generational cycle.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Over time her raging has improved, but her stress and quiet manipulating and gaslighting has not changed. It's hard to be around her. I struggle to focus at work because I'm pretty much always recovering from what's going on with her.
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #196 on: August 26, 2021, 05:57:54 AM »

I wrote to her:

With Kindness and Respect, I tell you honestly: your mental health condition is such that intimacy with you is not possible at this point in time.

Your emotional states fluctuate very frequently from self-righteous anger and rage, to exhaustion and grief, to passivity. There is also YOU. You the Soul - the real you. I interact with the real you now and again, but over 75% of your behaviour is caught up in the energies in bold.

You do have a mental health condition that is associated with childhood trauma. The major sign of this is your intense levels of stress - your stress is easily triggered; your sympathetic nervous system is active most of the time. A big part of your healing will be about activating your parasympathetic nervous system.

There is nothing wrong with mental health conditions. I have ADHD and OCD. You have BPD - Borderline Personality Disorder. You have the high-functioning sub-type.

Without accepting that you have this condition, and exploring how to heal it, with proper mental health care and assistance, I can't continue in a relationship with you.

We have no emotional intimacy because if I get to close, you push away. As I get to far away, you come closer. It's the Disorganized attachment style that arises from childhood trauma.

Healing is a long-term journey. It's not a bunch of promises made by email. To commit to your healing is the most courageous thing you'll ever do. I can't trust most of the things you say in this email, because I know that once the trauma energies are active in your body, all the promises fly out of the window.

I say all of this with love and respect... you are a great person. A great Soul. You're a Leader and a Compassionate Mother. Yet you urgently need to work on yourself, with professionals and experienced healers... if you want to fulfil your potential, and increase the likelihood of your sons fulfilling their potential.
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babyducks
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« Reply #197 on: August 26, 2021, 06:50:57 AM »

I wrote to her:

hello truthdevotee -

did you already send this?    or is this something you wrote out for yourself and us here?


there are two types of knowledge -  the stuff we keep to ourselves.    the type that is useful for us to understand and learn.      and the type that is helpful to share.


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What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lives within us.
truthdevotee
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« Reply #198 on: August 26, 2021, 07:12:01 AM »

hello truthdevotee -

did you already send this?    or is this something you wrote out for yourself and us here?


there are two types of knowledge -  the stuff we keep to ourselves.    the type that is useful for us to understand and learn.      and the type that is helpful to share.




I sent it... I was thinking, if I don't say it, then maybe no one ever will. And if she's truly open to growing, maybe it's worth to say what I see as the truth...

Was this a big mistake?
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babyducks
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« Reply #199 on: August 26, 2021, 07:24:12 AM »

I sent it... I was thinking, if I don't say it, then maybe no one ever will. And if she's truly open to growing, maybe it's worth to say what I see as the truth...

Was this a big mistake?

Here is my two cents.     its not our jobs to become amateur psychologists.   we have our perspectives based on our experiences and for sure much of what we see is grounded in well thought out concepts.    that doesn't suggest we take the next step and pour our information and thoughts on some one who struggles to accept reality.    in my opinion, its not a kind thing to do.

sharing this type of information  is not typically helpful.    no matter how many sugary words you coat it in you basically are forcing a bitter pill down someone's throat.   with a corresponding increase in resentment and acting out as a result.

boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.    it is NOT your job to educate her, save her or define how and when she grows.   perhaps it is time to draw some boundaries between her mental health and your actions.   

if I was on the receiving end of an email like this I would be terribly hurt.    and more than a little angry.     
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truthdevotee
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« Reply #200 on: August 26, 2021, 07:29:48 AM »

Here is my two cents.     its not our jobs to become amateur psychologists.   we have our perspectives based on our experiences and for sure much of what we see is grounded in well thought out concepts.    that doesn't suggest we take the next step and pour our information and thoughts on some one who struggles to accept reality.    in my opinion, its not a kind thing to do.

sharing this type of information  is not typically helpful.    no matter how many sugary words you coat it in you basically are forcing a bitter pill down someone's throat.   with a corresponding increase in resentment and acting out as a result.

boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.    it is NOT your job to educate her, save her or define how and when she grows.   perhaps it is time to draw some boundaries between her mental health and your actions.   

if I was on the receiving end of an email like this I would be terribly hurt.    and more than a little angry.     


Thank you for sharing.

I hear you and agree...

It knew it was tough, but wrote it anyway, I don't know why. I lacked compassion.

I fell into my addiction last night (I watched pornography, after many years of being in recovery), and my mind isn't healthy and clear today.

I'm in just as much need of healing as she is.

And I just got her reply... and I feel I'm being pulled in.

So I need to switch off this amateur therapist and step away again. It's all too much for me. My addiction, the guilt of falling into my addiction, and all this... I can't even focus on my work today.

She wrote:

Excerpt
I am sorry I did not know that about myself but it makes sense to me. Thanks for letting me know. I just wanted so much to know things about me but I did not know how and where to find them. I did not have the capacity to see it within myself. I asked you if you can kindly help many times you always resist to help me. I understand that you are not obliged to do it. I really did not know how to see myself.
I called for help and noone helped. I do my very best every day to be in my role service and helpful.

To get the nanny it is not going to help me to live a fulfilling life. It will be more tiring to navigate her. I am sure I can handle it on my own if I have a healing relationship with you.

We have no emotional intimacy because if I get to close, you push away. As I get to far away, you come closer. It's the Disorganized attachment style that arises from childhood trauma.

I just feel a big regret about above mentioned from you. I do not know about it. I do not see it. But it makes sense because when I found that my mum died I remember to experience a big crash in my life. I knew there will not be anybody who will ever hug me or support me. I missed it a big time all my life. I was honest and open about it to you. I wanted to find a man who can understand my missed need and give it to me.

I feel a deep sadness that you do not love me anymore due to my unhealed past. My heart is in so much pain. It feels like to me that someone break my arm and you say I cannot love you anymore because somebody broke your arm.

You love your family members of origin for who they are and what about me (now mother of your sons) You are too harsh on me. When I mentioned that we have some relationship issue to my dad he literally shouted at me and added that they are not going to help me with the boys although I wanted to give him just the information.

Healing is a long-term journey. It's not a bunch of promises made by email.
This hurts. I just genuinely love you for who you are.

I tried to help you when I knew the little information about your mental health. Probably it was not that helpful might have been opposite but the intention was to help and support you.

I really want my recovery and healing and get help. I have so far no support in this geographical location from anyone.

I am at my very bottom and feel so much pain all around my body. I feel I have no energy to give to my sons.

I feel whatever I write and share with you is useless.

To rent a new flat is very much painful too.

I guess I keep falling into this conversational dynamic with her because I'm only scratching the surface of boundaries, and falling into the rut of old energy and dynamic. I truly want to escape it.

Her email rightly so says that I was harsh... it says that I am abandoning her due to her unhealed past, which triggers my guilt. I crossed a boundary and got myself into unsafe emotional territory. I feel some anger that she makes me responsible to heal her childhood conditioning.

Turns out this was a mistake. Thank you for telling me straight.
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« Reply #201 on: August 26, 2021, 07:37:37 AM »

Feel guilty - lots of guilt running through me today from slipping into my addiction and now from this... getting pulled back into dangerous territory. Both her and I are running on childhood trauma today. Just as she explains, I'm also feeling that deep seated self-loathing in my body today.

I wrote to say sorry, and will stop any further communication today. It's too much for me.

Excerpt
I'm sorry if my email was too harsh. I just wanted to give you the information that might assist on your healing journey. But it may have been too much and harsh. In hindsight, I shouldn't have done it. I'm sorry.
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« Reply #202 on: August 26, 2021, 07:40:49 AM »

I feel so silly.

I'll go to the forest and ask for help from Higher Power.
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« Reply #203 on: August 26, 2021, 07:59:05 AM »

I think my email comes out of subconscious anger with her. That's why the lack of compassion. I subconsciously soothing myself by 'telling her the truth'. Venting my frustration with 'knowledge'.

I'm hit with the guilt when she is essentially blaming me for 'not loving her through her childhood trauma'. I feel the manipulation of this, but also the guilt. It's most likely true it is childhood trauma, yet its true too that we have responsibility to heal ourselves as adults.

I really need help to avoid being controlled by guilt. I stepped too far until the emotional deep end and it appears to complicate things. I suppose best is to let this pass by?
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« Reply #204 on: August 26, 2021, 08:12:02 AM »

I wrote one last thing to her. Now joining a12 Step call to escape my self centeredness addiction, the root of all my troubles.

-

I feel compassion for what you went through in childhood. Truly.

I feel scared and unsafe in the face of some of the behaviour that arises out of the childhood trauma. And I don't know if it's solely childhood trauma or something else.

Our childhood generally influence our adult behaviour.

Our pain from childhood frequently arises as hurtful behaviour towards our closest in adult life.

I am only scratching the surface of healing my own childhood. As an adult I believe I need to take the next right action such that I limit the pain and hurt I give to others due to my own trauma. I also need to give others space to heal themselves.

So this isn't about me not loving or having compassion for you. It's about the pain I am in, in the face of your trauma based behaviour, and acting out my own.

This is why I forgive, because we are, in a way, acting out the things we had no control over. At the same time, when something is too painful for me, I need to step away so I can be my best self everyday.
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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #205 on: August 26, 2021, 11:58:47 AM »

Analyzing ourselves and others can be helpful…up to a point. It’s possible to get over-focused on thinking about the past and not fully inhabiting the present.

This has been referred to as “analysis paralysis”.

How about spending some time with the boys, just enjoying life, nature, the outdoors? Focus on your work and do it as best you can. Give yourself a break from guilt and worry.

Regarding your wife, don’t get into long explanations, just have a civil relationship for now. Forgive yourself. Forgive her.

The important thing is to watch what she does, rather than what she says.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #206 on: August 26, 2021, 12:30:52 PM »

Analyzing ourselves and others can be helpful…up to a point. It’s possible to get over-focused on thinking about the past and not fully inhabiting the present.

This has been referred to as “analysis paralysis”.

How about spending some time with the boys, just enjoying life, nature, the outdoors? Focus on your work and do it as best you can. Give yourself a break from guilt and worry.

Regarding your wife, don’t get into long explanations, just have a civil relationship for now. Forgive yourself. Forgive her.

The important thing is to watch what she does, rather than what she says.

Thank you, Cat.

Yes... The boys always help me to return to the present moment.

I reflected and all is well... It was a compassionate email suitable in that moment given all factors. I don't often speak so directly and I've learned over time not to therapize. She says she's grateful for the information and it wasn't hurtful.

Your last sentence is something I'm reminding myself several times a day. This is about action. Just as my flat rental is an action. Change is born through action.

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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #207 on: August 26, 2021, 02:30:56 PM »

My impression is that your message would have been received better (or perceived less problematical) if it had been sent to a reasonably normal person.  That's what you tried but... she's not reasonably normal.  Her mental processing is skewed and that is the both seen and unseen elephant in the room.

We generally advise our newer members to avoid shouting from the rooftops to the other person that a Personality Disorder such as BPD is involved.  It can trigger overreactions, denials, and more.  Yes, you tried to share it alongside your own issues but still.  With tongue-in-cheek I sometimes have referred the situation to us being grownups and others, especially the professionals, not wanting us to Play Doctor.

Many counselors and therapists don't even mention to their patients precisely what they're treating, they just call it therapy sessions.  That's to avoid patients departing in a huff, blaming the therapist and everybody but themselves and never coming back for more sessions.

Don't be too hard on yourself.  What happened, happened.  Look forward.  Today I just read a post by ThanksForPlaying on how boundaries are different when dealing with acting-out _PD that resonated with me and may help with insight.

With non-PD people, boundaries can be kind of fuzzy, and we can work them out with some give and take, discussion of how we feel, etc.

Even things like "being late to drop off the dog" isn't a big deal with non-PD people.  Tell them it was annoying to have to wait, they will apologize for being late, and it won't happen the next time.  For pwBPD, being late this week turns into being super late next week, and then if you say anything about the lateness, it turns into rage.  There's no give and take - it's just constantly pushing boundaries and constant confrontation.

Because of this dynamic, our boundaries can seem odd or strict to non-PD people.  "She was late to drop off the dog so I left and went home" can seem like an "extreme" reaction for non-PD people (you should have waited a few minutes), and then we start questioning ourselves... did I really need to do that?  Maybe that was too extreme...

It's good to have a place to bounce ideas around (here) and friends who can give you an idea of where "normal" boundaries should be set.  Don't try to do it all alone.  It's hard.  Keep posting.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 02:36:11 PM by ForeverDad » Logged

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« Reply #208 on: August 26, 2021, 06:17:12 PM »

TD, you are Ok. I genuinely see the compassion in your letter alongside the anger.  Yes, it is a problem that she will not see it the way you meant it, but that is BPD.
I hear your rage. Because she shys away from doing the work to get well, she is splitting up your family, the very thing you did not want. And on some level you blame yourself.
But hear also what she is saying. She lost a.mother and always wanted a man who could.provide that motherly love.
You cant be her mom,TD. i totally understand why your body has switched off. Her expectations are extreme.
You have been a mother of three for a couple.of years now. It almost broke you. And of course you will feel resentment that you have to try and guilt that you fail. Let yourself off the wheel. You have the power to choose out of this situation. Grant yourself that grace.
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« Reply #209 on: August 27, 2021, 04:41:57 AM »

TD,

When I first started in 12 step groups for co-dependency, it seemed odd to me since I could not identify specific addictions. I was in a room with people addicted to alcohol, drugs- and yet, these are not issues for me.

There was talk of "emotional sobriety" and I didn't quite get it. But I was well aware of how I felt the next day after these emotional exchanges, circular arguments, and then one day realized " this is how it must feel to have a hangover" and it made sense.

People resist the idea of "co-dependency" because many times, they are the least "dependent" in the relationship in terms of earning a living, or functioning in the home. But just like an addict is dependent on the substance they abuse, a co-dependent can have an "addiction" to the dysfunction in the relationship. In a way, you both know how to "invite" each other into an emotional binge. You know when you've done it because you feel emotionally "hung over" the next day.

What do addictions do? They release a bunch of chemical neurotransmitters. So do strong emotions. Consider these emotional emails you are sending. Yes, you want to communicate your feelings and be understood, but she's also having her own emotional feelings. Are you getting into emotional circular arguments? She has her part in this too- because when she incites you emotionally, she also has the emotional response. If you feel badly the next day, it's because of this over doing it.

Once I understood this, I realized why co-dependent behavior fits the 12 step program. If you can recognize these emotional situations and avoid overdoing them, it may help. This doesn't mean you don't have feelings at all or never express them, it means learning to manage your own feelings better- self care. Emotional sobriety takes some work but it's possible.

It's fine to write out your feelings for yourself but consider not sending them. Especially if there's going to be legal involvement, they could be evidence. Not that you have done something wrong but consider that we all are capable of saying things we don't mean in a moment of emotion. They don't need to be in writing.

If you separate that is difficult for anyone. I don't know if you are seeing a therapist or not. I think that can help, in addition to your sponsor. Whether you stay romantically involved with your children's mother or not, you will be in some relationship to her as she is the boys' mother. It may help to reduce the emotional drama between the two of you either way.






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