Safety plan

[thankful person]

Hi all, it has been suggested to me that I should think about a safety plan, which I understand is what I would do if I ever felt myself or the children were in danger from my wife.
She has been violent towards me in the past. Not hitting/punching usually, but rather throwing me around, battering me and kicking me when I’m down. She is much stronger than me and I can’t defend myself. I have been fearful for my life, it does seem extreme but when it has happened I’m most worried that I would hit my head and severely injure myself.
For context, please understand that these incidents have been very few since we have had children, first one arrived October 2019.. The last time around July 2021 was when she snatched our daughter from me (age 20 months) and threw me out of the room. Because I said I didn’t want to stop reading to her or put her down. My wife is jealous of our relationship.
Before that the last incident I remember was May 2020 when I was supposed to be going out to test drive a car. I was stressing about that and didn’t pay her enough attention. She threw me on the floor, kicked me, broke both our bracelets which I had bought on purpose. I didn’t end up going to look at the car that day. Before that there were two other similar incidents, one around Dec 2019 when she didn’t like that I bought home a plant one of my students gave me for Christmas (she threw me and the plant out of the door and I walked around the corner and abandoned it on someone’s garden wall. So somebody got a nice white poinsettia from my student that year). And one other incident around February 2020.
My wife has never been violent towards our children ages 2 years, and 8 months. However she has in the past snatched them from me when she is angry with me. As in my other post I have established that this is happening much less than it used to, but did happen on Christmas Eve 2021 last week.
My wife is also aggressive towards me through shouting (much less since I learnt on here to stop arguing with her and this has made a world of difference) and she also slams doors occasionally, again she did it this week but it isn’t that often.
If I needed to get away from her then I can go to my parents. We have two cars and I own them both. If I needed to take the children then I would take “her” car (which is actually mine) because the car seats are isofixed into it. There are always spare nappies and clothes for them in there too. However I cannot see a situation where I could get the children away from her as she would not consent to this and would snatch them from me and most probably attack me if I tried to take them. I would need to call the police.
So there you have it. This is the truth of our relationship and our past. I know people say that if people get violent then they will do it again. But I can honestly say the incidents have become less and less as time went on. I also hope she would never attack me in front of the children, she has done once, but only when our eldest was too young to understand (4 months). Any advice welcome. Deciding what action to take and when would be very hard but I promise I will always come on here for advice if she does anything like this. I know that I owe this to myself and my children.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Tuxedo Cat]

However I cannot see a situation where I could get the children away from her as she would not consent to this and would snatch them from me and most probably attack me if I tried to take them. I would need to call the police.

This happened to me.  My uBPDh locked himself in a room with both of the kids (about 4 and 9 at the time).  I knew nothing of BPD at the time and pretty much no safety plan but I did call the police.
One other thing to prepare for is how to respond if you are prevented/blocked from leaving.  You need to have a way to contact police/get help.

[Rev]

This happened to me.  My uBPDh locked himself in a room with both of the kids (about 4 and 9 at the time).  I knew nothing of BPD at the time and pretty much no safety plan but I did call the police.
One other thing to prepare for is how to respond if you are prevented/blocked from leaving.  You need to have a way to contact police/get help.

Hi broken ...

Here's a thought. Do you have someone who could assist in you leaving should things get violent?

Could that person actually safely show up to the house and act as a witness while police are being called?

Also, are you keeping written records of what is happening?  Please do this if at all possible. Keeping systematic notes will help prevent a false "self defense" claim, should one pop up.

In general, given that you are a man, I would say that doing this alone is not a great idea.

Please continue to reach out here.  And thank you for watching out for you kids. Other men would simply take off.

Hang in there. Stay safe.

Rev

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Broken person,

We have a resource here for our members to refer to:

Safety First

I know the others here will also continue to give you great help just as they have been all along.

 
Wools

[kells76]

My understanding is that BP is a woman in a relationship with a woman; that being said, there still may be biases or presuppositions from any responding professionals. For example, there could be a presupposition that because BP's wife is younger and female, she couldn't possibly be a perpetrator. So, Rev's point still stands -- it's important to understand unique relational circumstances that could put the caller in a "down" position.

Also, BP, correct me if I'm wrong, I think you are in the UK? I know different countries have different levels of awareness about who is "allowed" to be a victim of DV. I know Rev has done a lot of work to raise awareness of men being DV victims as well as women. Anyone in any intimate relationship can sadly experience DV, nobody is in an "immune" position.

Anyway, BP, it's food for thought to learn a bit about how professionals and authorities in the UK might hypothetically respond to someone in your position reporting DV.

Good to keep hearing from you, hope the kids are doing well,

kells76

[Rev]

My understanding is that BP is a woman in a relationship with a woman; that being said, there still may be biases or presuppositions from any responding professionals. For example, there could be a presupposition that because BP's wife is younger and female, she couldn't possibly be a perpetrator. So, Rev's point still stands -- it's important to understand unique relational circumstances that could put the caller in a "down" position.

Also, BP, correct me if I'm wrong, I think you are in the UK? I know different countries have different levels of awareness about who is "allowed" to be a victim of DV. I know Rev has done a lot of work to raise awareness of men being DV victims as well as women. Anyone in any intimate relationship can sadly experience DV, nobody is in an "immune" position.

Anyway, BP, it's food for thought to learn a bit about how professionals and authorities in the UK might hypothetically respond to someone in your position reporting DV.

Good to keep hearing from you, hope the kids are doing well,

kells76
[/quote

Oh my - Thank you Kells for making that clarification. Soo sorry BP for not double checking. AND ... let me reframe. Thank you for taking care of your kids. Many people would just take off and think of themselves. As far as having someone else show up as being a witness, I still think it's good policy.

And if it is the UK - then Kells is correct. There may be more resources there. It the reading that I did, British literature was well ahead of the curve compared to NA in terms of focussing in on abusive/coercive behavior beyond physical violence.

Rev

[formflier]

BP,

Do you look back and regret not calling police/authorities?

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

Thank you all, this is a lot to take in. I don’t really have anyone who could help me. We are due to move house soon and I hope to find trusted friends in our new area. How much do you think they need to know?
Yes Kells, we are in a lesbian marriage. I used to put this at the start of each post as people were confused before, but it got a bit tedious. I don’t mind. My wife though… don’t get her started on all the times we’ve had correspondence addressed to mr and mrs…
Anyway Rev you make some good points. I will also read the safety document.
Kells is right, there is a huge campaign around domestic violence in the uk, you can’t avoid it there are posters in public toilets etc. “do you ever feel intimidated by your partner?” Etc.
These are National Health Service funded so I would hope to be taken seriously.
FF, you got me thinking actually.. we were known to the police in the past because in several different homes the neighbours called the police reporting the disturbance from our shouting and door slamming etc. My wife was at one time arrested because I had a black eye. It wasn’t directly from an attack but rather we had a tussle and I ended up banging my face on a cupboard door. (This was days before the arrest). She told them she had hit me but I said it was an accident and didn’t want to press charges. I did not want her to have a criminal record because I wanted her to have the best possible chance of finding and holding down a job (she already had drugs possession on her file).
A part of me always hoped I would end up in hospital so the truth could come to light. The good news is that we have lived here for five years and no police have been called to our home during that time. The attacks have been infrequent. I had learnt to bend over backwards, walking on egg shells, to avoid upsetting my wife. Now I’m challenging some of those previous ways of thinking. And my wife is coping well with it. I did something earlier and I can’t remember what but wife said, “you shouldn’t have done that” and I reflected on the fact that I used to say “sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry” like literally five times really quickly. And again I can’t remember what I said, but I noted how ridiculously ineffective the five sorry’s used to be, and also when you admit responsibility you’re asking for the blame. I used to admit responsibility with five sorry’s, even when I wasn’t to blame! Just feeling more confident and stable within myself seems to be helping her to feel more stable too.

[formflier]

Hey Broken Person I'm sure some of this reflection on the past is difficult.  As I've stated in other threads...it's important to quantify what we are talking about.

How many times in your relationship has your wife assaulted you and been arrested?

How many times (similar to the being thrown to the floor and kicked) have you been assaulted and chosen not to report it (regardless of what neighbors have done)?

BP..for you and everyone I think it's important to work through this because a "safety plan" for someone who is concerned they may be assaulted for the first time in their relationship will most likely look quite different from the safety plan for a person who has been repeatedly assaulted.

Please step up your self care as we work through these difficult memories? 

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

After she snatched the child and threw me out the room, I told her that I would want us to tell someone if it happened again and she said she would tell the health visitor. It hasn’t happened again.

hello BP,    

back in the beginning of December you mentioned that you would want third party intervention if the the physical aggression happened again.    you had this understanding with your wife?

do you still have a health visitor?

[thankful person]

FF, I can think of 9 specific incidents when my wife has attacked me during our seven years together, but I think there may have been a few I don’t remember. But they were more severe and frequent the first two years we were together. She was only arrested once, detained overnight and released the next morning. In the past five years I can recall five incidents, the most recent being when she threw me out the room in July 2021. This was much milder than the attack in May 2020 when I was trying to leave the house to test drive a car.
Ducks, my wife has not laid a finger on me since that agreement back in July 2021. I don’t believe she sees anything wrong with occasionally snatching the children from me. It is an act of frustration and impatience and also to punish me for whatever I did wrong that moment. Also once she has the child then she can “make things right”, cuddle them etc. I’m not saying it makes it ok but that’s what she thinks. The health visitor discharged us months ago. They were absolutely useless. This was her response when my wife said she may have post natal depression:
health visitor: “I don’t have the questionnaire today, but you don’t seem depressed… a bit anxious maybe but that’s to be expected after your baby was so unwell and has ongoing issues and an investigation is underway… it’s perfectly fine if you don’t want to see family for several months, I don’t blame you… your older child seems perfectly fine too… well adjusted, happy…” One time I mentioned during the health visit that I was so sad at how unhappy my wife was during what should be a wonderful time to celebrate our little family. This made my wife break down in tears but the health visitor still had to rush off to her next appointment. And then wife had a go at me for interfering and making it “all about me as usual”. The visits were just to make sure baby put on weight with the breastfeeding. My wife was very let down by the hospital following and during our baby being so sick. She had no support with her mental health. AND THEY KNOW FROM HER RECORDS THAT SHE HAS BPD! No one seems interested though (not that I would ever mention it).

[formflier]

She was only arrested once, detained overnight and released the next morning. 

Did she plead guilty to the charges?  How was it resolved in the legal system?

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

FF, I chose not to press charges, which meant that my wife was not prosecuted. I didn’t want her to have a criminal record which would make it harder for her to find employment. So my understanding is that she doesn’t have a criminal record (only the drugs possession), but the arrest and interviews would be on police records were I ever to need the evidence. She told them that she hit me.

[formflier]

It's important that we accurately understand the timeline.

So..she assaults you, gets arrested and no charges are pressed based on your decisions..

After she "gets away with" (not my best word choice..but I hope you get my meaning) assaulting you and doesn't face charges...she continues to physically assault you several times up until you threaten to report her to the health advocate.

After that threat was given to her about reporting to the health advocate..she has not physically assaulted you in any form or fashion.

1.  Is this accurate?

2.  If it is accurate...what does this inform you about how she responds to consequences or fear of consequences?

Last:  How are your feelings doing...digging up some of these older unpleasant memories?

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

After that threat was given to her about reporting to the health advocate..she has not physically assaulted you in any form or fashion.

1.  Is this accurate?

2.  If it is accurate...what does this inform you about how she responds to consequences or fear of consequences?

Last:  How are your feelings doing...digging up some of these older unpleasant memories?

1. FF, yes that is accurate. The arrest was around 2015. I am ashamed to say that I didn’t have the self-respect to suggest any consequences (despite sometimes fearing for my life) until it came about that she did something in front of our children when our little girl is now at an age where this is potentially going to have serious effects on her. I hated myself for leaving my 14 year relationship with my ex-boyfriend for bpd wife, because I broke his heart. So I thought I deserved the pain but wanted to die to escape the pain. When I got cancer in 2016, (I put it down to stress and lack of sleep), I felt like I had manifested what I wanted.
2. Yes it is evident that she responds to the fear of consequences, probably much more so when it could potentially involve the custody of our children were we to split up.
Last. I’m doing ok thanks. Yes I’m pretty disturbed by these memories. I’m trying to be kind to myself. I’ve learnt so much over the past few months from you guys on here and the books I’m reading.
 I realise that I was some kind of caretaker for my ex, that our relationship was never healthy, and that I don’t need to feel responsible for him seven years after (we have no contact and I  know nothing about him anymore).
I realise that I deserve self-respect and self-compassion, and that these are new things to me.
I realise that my partner is emotionally disabled and that I’m not going to get respect and compassion from her as I would a “normal” person, but that I can still set standards for what I will/will not tolerate in our relationship.
I realise that I need to learn self-compassion so that I can teach it to my children effectively. 24 years of working with children and it has been easy to model this because I go into “fake” mode when I’m working. My children see the real me. My daughter is highly empathetic and so I need to be extra careful. When my wife was pregnant and in pain, my daughter would say cheerily, “hiiiii” as a way of checking she was ok (it was her only word at the time). The other day when I was dealing with a stressful phone call, she came and held my hand. I was remaining as calm as possible, but she picked up on my stress. I want to try and help my daughter as best I can. At two she’s too young to discuss such things but I know she needs me to model emotionally healthy for her. She is doing great by the way. Also she is now spending a few hours at nursery which is very good for her.
Do you suggest I discuss the “child snatching” with my wife and when and how would I do this? As with most things I prefer not to rock the boat when things are going well. I know it is likely to continue if it isn’t discussed, but I don’t know what consequences I would suggest. It is on the milder side of what is unacceptable but this doesn’t make it ok.

[babyducks]

Thanks for carefully recounting all that BP.    It's always very helpful for those trying to follow along to get a good clear representation of what has happened and what's going on now.   

Yes I’m pretty disturbed by these memories. I’m trying to be kind to myself. I’ve learnt so much over the past few months from you guys on here and the books I’m reading.

these are tough memories.    tough to face with the new understandings you are growing.

I realise that my partner is emotionally disabled and that I’m not going to get respect and compassion from her as I would a “normal” person, but that I can still set standards for what I will/will not tolerate in our relationship.

as you think about this, where do you feel your boundaries are today?   for instance, if she snatches the child again, would you challenge her on it and how would you go about doing that?     this is more a process for you to think through than actually put into motion.

if she reaches the level of throwing you out of the room, how do you see yourself responding to that?     

these would be more your best guesses than the actual plan.   

I have to say there was physical violence in my relationship.  its a long time ago now and I've made my peace with it.  but I ended up with a broken bone that required surgery, 4 screws and a plate to fix.     part of coming to terms with it, was having a good solid plan of how to respond safely and appropriately to any violence I was going to be exposed to.     it helped.

Do you suggest I discuss the “child snatching” with my wife and when and how would I do this?

I'd suggest you practice the conversation here with us first.   we can offer tweaks and ideas that could be beneficial.       I'd suggest you 'script' out any potential conversation so that under the pressure of the topic you are not making it up as you go along.

what do you think?

[thankful person]

where do you feel your boundaries are today?   for instance, if she snatches the child again, would you challenge her on it and how would you go about doing that?     this is more a process for you to think through than actually put into motion.

if she reaches the level of throwing you out of the room, how do you see yourself responding to that?     

Ducks I am saddened to hear how you suffered at the hands of your ex. I have never felt that my wife wants to harm me, more that she wants to scare me and also punish me, but rather that any injury would be indirect “accidental”. Yes I am aware that sounds ridiculous.
Much progress has been made with various boundaries recently as I have mentioned before like sending baby pictures to mum, the children wearing clothes mum bought them (still working on the baby with this as the clothes are “impractical “ for breast feeding which I can’t argue with)… I’m wearing what I want… I’m playing the piano (carefully choosing my moments as my wife has decided to learn and finds it upsetting that I am good at piano). I’m having showers when I want etc etc. These things are truly to be celebrated. However… how would I discuss it if she snatched the child again? This terrifies me. It sounds extreme but I guess I’m still at the mercy of her mood swings.
I guess I’ll give some thoughts rather than answers.
I wouldn’t aim to discuss it immediately. It is when she’s in a hurry for whatever reason, stressed etc. and busy with the children. I may have to wait until the next day if it was last thing at night. I’m ok with this, but I know my wife hates discussing anything after the fact: “that’s OVER! Can’t we just move on!”
I would probably not use the word “snatch”. I might open the conversation by (apologising?) for whatever I did wrong. (?) “I’m sorry I was delayed in bringing child up to bed when teddy went missing last night..” I see her responding, “that’s OVER! Can’t we just move on!” FF has suggested that it’s unhelpful to attribute feelings to the child and that I should keep it at what I’m feeling (?) “I would like us to move on. However I felt very upset at the way you took child from me so quickly (would I say “roughly “?) last night, and that I didn’t get the chance to kiss her good night as usual” (this could be triggering, she’d probably say, “well you didn’t wanna kiss me goodnight then! Why should you get to kiss her goodnight?”) I would say, “I’d like our children to go to bed feeling loved by both of us, in a peaceful and safe environment” (she uses the word “safe” a lot, having suffered sexual abuse as a child/teen) I think she would say, “well it doesn’t always work out that way and you should have brought her up here quicker…” and she also may say, “why does everything always have to be about the children? Don’t you want me to go to bed feeling loved?”
And I don’t know what else I would say. If I said, “I do want you to feel loved” she would say, “no you don’t. I don’t feel loved” Christmas Eve was the only time I have ever mentioned that the child looked scared. I’m hoping this has had some kind of effect on my wife, even though she denied that the child was scared.
I think were she to get physically violent again with me, I would end the interaction as soon as possible. It was generally my continued arguing and occasional laughing to make her more angry that caused these incidents to continue in the past. I now have absolutely no wish to make her more angry or upset especially in front of the children. I would leave the house asap despite her protestations that I always want to get away. I don’t know if I would do this, always wanting to give another chance, but I think the next thing might be calling the domestic violence line to discuss my options. I hate the idea of reporting my wife, even to the doctor, because she would be so upset about someone trying to take the children away. I certainly wouldn’t want her arrested given that she is still breast feeding and can’t be away from baby. I think one thing I certainly could say is that I will be finding a therapist to help me deal with the violence. It is against her wishes for me to go to therapy, but this would be a consequence that I could put into place, without prior warning. Or do I phone wife and say, “I’m thinking of ringing gp/domestic violence line/finding a therapist. If I was going to do one of those, which would you choose?” I already know that she would not engage with such a discussion and her reply would be, “whatever, do what the F you want”.
Thoughts most welcome. As you can see, I’m really not very good at this.

[thankful person]

I just wanted to add that she has made it clear to me that the consequences of me going to therapy would be that she would end our relationship. Although we would probably continue living together for some time for convenience, it would be a very hurtful time for all and may spell the end of our relationship.

[Tuxedo Cat]

BP, I just want to say, I had also made the decision to leave immediately if my husband were to “flip the switch” and become physically threatening or actually touch me in an aggressive/abusive manner.  When it did happen, I followed through on that, got my keys and my purse.  It didn’t work. He followed me and actually blocked the car. I ended up calling the emergency # (not for the physical violence but for threats to harm himself). Thankfully I had my phone with me and charged and he didn’t try to take it from me.

[kells76]

BP, could you please remind me --

Is therapy the only topic that is a "relationship ender" according to her?

Or, have there been other topics where she has threatened ending the relationship if you did X (was piano like that, or seeing your parents, etc)?

I ask because pwBPD are very emotionally convincing, yet often, their words are less about communicating real facts and more about expressing momentary feelings.

I'm wondering if she is saying "end the relationship" because she is unskilled at communicating her large feelings and that is "close enough" to how she feels...

versus, she's saying "I'll end the relationship if you see a therapist" as a grounded and thought out plan/statement of fact.

I wonder if it would make a difference in your choices and self care, if you could

(a) look back and see if she's made similar threats, and see what happened, and

(b) ponder whether she is communicating a plan or expressing an emotion poorly.

Food for thought!

Hope kiddos had a good day,

kells76

[formflier]

Ducks I am saddened to hear how you suffered at the hands of your ex. I have never felt that my wife wants to harm me, more that she wants to scare me and also punish me, but rather that any injury would be indirect “accidental”. 

Hey BP...you continue to make great strides with your relationship and with reflecting on and posting about some very difficult topics.  Good job on that!

I've raised the issue of "words matter"/ "thoughts matter" before, so take these comments in that same way.

I think I generally get what you are saying that your wife doesn't want to harm you...or generally doesn't want to harm you, yet when she gets very emotional and her loud words don't work...she doesn't have a proper filter to stop herself from "imposing" her views/desires on you.   That's a concerning trait of hers...although to be fair..that she stopped doing this based on a threat of you reporting it makes it someone less concerning.


Sometimes when things sound "ridiculous"...we've just had a hard time expressing ourselves...other times "sounds like" becomes "is".

If I remember right, one of your incidents involved you being on the ground and your wife kicking you.  So...when your wife made a choice to continue her assault you with her foot...her intention was most like (NOT TO) or (TO) harm you?

Hang in there...keep up the hard work and extra extra self care.  Very interested in your thoughts on kells76 questions about the "therapy threats".

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Ducks I am saddened to hear how you suffered at the hands of your ex. I have never felt that my wife wants to harm me, more that she wants to scare me and also punish me, but rather that any injury would be indirect “accidental”. Yes I am aware that sounds ridiculous.

Broken,   I did not suffer at the hands of my Ex.    I made decisions, made choices to accept the risks and the rewards of that relationship.     I was not a victim.   I was a participant, doing the best I could with the information I had at the time.    I think it is important to accept our responsibilities.    and accept the realities for what they are.   

FF says "words matter".    I think the same but say it a little different.    Words Create Worlds.    Yes, the words we use create the world we live within. 

However… how would I discuss it if she snatched the child again? This terrifies me. It sounds extreme but I guess I’m still at the mercy of her mood swings.

that's why I am suggesting you work through it here, in a safe space so that ... if the need arises... you have dealt with your fear and calmly thought about how to proceed.    its like the piano ... practice practice practice so it becomes automatic.   

but I know my wife hates discussing anything after the fact: “that’s OVER! Can’t we just move on!”

I'm sure she does.   and I can see why it works for her.    it gives her control over the conversations, it avoids a free exchange of ideas and thoughts,  she doesn't have to face anything she doesn't want to face.   the answer to 'can't we just move on!'   is 'No, I am not ready to yet.'

I would probably not use the word “snatch”. I might open the conversation by (apologising?) for whatever I did wrong. (?) “I’m sorry I was delayed in bringing child up to bed when teddy went missing last night..” I see her responding, “that’s OVER! Can’t we just move on!”

Why apologize?     is the issue you want to talk about the teddy bear or the rough handling of the child?

there is a communications model (whose name I can't recall right now) that goes like this:

When ____________ happens
I feel _________________
So I need to _______________.

quick example:     When I hear shouting, I feel uncomfortable and ill at ease, so I need to step outside until things feel calm again to me.

FF has suggested that it’s unhelpful to attribute feelings to the child and that I should keep it at what I’m feeling (?)

I'd agree.    if you attribute feelings to the child, it becomes a debate.   she was scared.   she was not.   she was too.   you're a jerk.   no you're a jerk.   and quickly devolves into a fight.    if you calmly state what you are feeling well... you know what you were feeling, that can't become a debate.    you want to own your feelings.

“I would like us to move on. However I felt very upset at the way you took child from me so quickly (would I say “roughly “?) last night, and that I didn’t get the chance to kiss her good night as usual”

it seems to me that you are attempting to placate her here.    Do you really want to move on?    Or do you want to address your concerns?    Do you want to address the rough handling of the child?   again.   Words Create Worlds.    if you say the problem is you didn't get to kiss her good night, what are you creating?    How you identify problems defines how she responds.

When we had the poor exchange at bed time last night I felt very concerned for the kids and I need to talk about it so it doesn't happen again.

(this could be triggering, she’d probably say, “well you didn’t wanna kiss me goodnight then! Why should you get to kiss her goodnight?”) I would say, “I’d like our children to go to bed feeling loved by both of us, in a peaceful and safe environment” (she uses the word “safe” a lot, having suffered sexual abuse as a child/teen) I think she would say, “well it doesn’t always work out that way and you should have brought her up here quicker…” and she also may say, “why does everything always have to be about the children? Don’t you want me to go to bed feeling loved?”

Oh yuck.         sheeesh.    well that's a mess of conflated topics and BPD neediness.    you've wandered off the topic you wanted to discuss, didn't you?   is this about snatching, being physically rough?   being in control of emotions when in control of a small body?     

  I think one thing I certainly could say is that I will be finding a therapist to help me deal with the violence. It is against her wishes for me to go to therapy, but this would be a consequence that I could put into place, without prior warning.

my thought is this would be a fruitful avenue to explore.      and Kells76 raised good questions.

'ducks

[formflier]

Oh yuck.         sheeesh.    well that's a mess of conflated topics and BPD neediness.    you've wandered off the topic you wanted to discuss, didn't you?   is this about snatching, being physically rough?   being in control of emotions when in control of a small body?    

Oh...conflation...pwBPD specialize in that and distraction..avoidance..etc etc.


The important thing is that you realize it's coming.  Just like a thunderstorm will show up and ruin plans from time to time...your pwBPD will do things that take a conversation WAAAAY off track.  

Stay calm..."That sounds important, let's get back to (insert subject of original conversation) and deal with (conflated thing) after we come to an understanding on...(original topic).

Oh...I love the "words create worlds".  

Words can also be triggering.  "Compliance" (and related words) is very triggering for FFw...so me saying something like "Ok...we agree I will do X and you will do Y by (insert time)."  

In my world I love that level of "explicit understanding"...  Getting right to the point..the exact thing is not a good idea with FFw.

Anyway..the point of all that is I don't think getting her to "agree" that "snatching" a child is undesirable is a productive use of words.

"Hey...can we come to an understanding of how we would like child exchanges to go." gets at the same thing, yet really doesn't "accuse" her of anything.


Best,

FF

[thankful person]

Thanks all, very helpful comments here. It’s a lot to take in.
Kells the children had a really good day, thank you. No snatching and no shouting, we were just at home but it’s good to acknowledge that we’re all doing better most of the time. W did make the common point that, “it doesn’t feel like we’re in a relationship..” Also that I’m always working and talking about work. I taught online for 3.5 hours. It’s a complicated week with students still off school. I didn’t say much, as this seems to work better than trying to discuss such things with her, especially her disappointment in our relationship.
So there have been threats from her to end the relationship in the past. But usually it’s put upon me, “you should leave me, why are you still here? It’s not fair on me..” kind of thing. It is mostly because she is unsatisfied with our sex life and doesn’t feel close to me/loved/like we’re a couple etc. But when I put down the boundary last Feb that I was going to start taking pictures of our daughter and sending them to mum whenever I want, then she said, “our relationship is over”. We still lived together but she refused me any affection and wouldn’t say she loved me for a couple of months and kept saying she wanted me to leave. Our second child was due in May and she conveniently “forgave” (?) me in April. Those couple of months were torturous to me. I’ve come a long way since then. I feel stronger, more sane, more supported with you guys on here.. When I set the photo boundary, I only did it because my mother was so devastated to never see the baby and be told she wasn’t getting photos except when wife chose to send them (hardly ever). I was willing to leave my relationship just so that mum could have baby photos, even though my mum did not and does not understand the situation with wife. That was shortly before I joined the forum here, so I didn’t have a clue what I was dealing with or how to. I think I signed up before baby arrived but it was a few more months until I started posting more.
So I do think I would handle it better now, were my wife to say she wanted to end our relationship.
FF, yes I see my wife did want to harm me the day she was kicking me. I was trying to leave the house to test drive the car and after I tried to get up after being thrown to the floor, she kicked me in my lower back and I struggled to stand up straight and then made the decision not to go. So I think at that time her motive was for me not to go see the car. Not sure if she was jealous of the car or the people I was going to see at the car place. But I did end up getting the car another day.
I am reassured by the reactions here to my estimations of how wife would respond. She is indeed very jealous of my love for our children.
Ducks I shall remember the when, I felt, I need… I hope that might help.
Thanks again everyone.
I’ll keep reading through your replies, and be back for more advice if anything happens again…

[formflier]

  It’s a lot to take in.
 

Yes it is!

Good idea to come back and read it a few times.

I'm curious what you said when your wife said it doesn't feel like we are in a r/s?

Best,

FF

[thankful person]

I'm curious what you said when your wife said it doesn't feel like we are in a r/s?

FF, I can barely remember because these things don’t seem to bother me so much these days. I think I was just like, “ohhhhhhh noo” in the baby voice she likes, and then I asked for examples “what do you mean?” and she said that all we’d talked about all morning was work. I did briefly justify it with “there’s a lot going on this week” but then left it. I am trying to fit my work around several appointments because I don’t want to lose income. Also she has said she didn’t want me going out to teach the only two students I see in person cos of putting our baby at risk of covid. I respect this. But then she changed her mind so now I was trying to book them in again. Even our government can’t agree on covid restrictions right now so I don’t blame her for this. I also struggle with knowing what’s for the best. After three months of lockdown in 2020, she demanded I go back out to work, against my wishes, “to save our marriage”. I complied. She no longer has this kind of power over me, and I would refuse such a demand if it were to happen now and I didn’t agree. It’s a difficult situation. 90% of my students’ parents were compliant too which didn’t  help, and the rules have always been hazy.