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Author Topic: The physical violence in my relationship  (Read 2294 times)
15years
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« on: July 25, 2022, 08:30:47 AM »

Hi all,

Just trying if it's possible to present a table in text like this.

This is the data of physical violence aimed at me that I've collected since March 2021 (before that there hadn't been much physical violence, she had pushed me from bed a few times in a few years time).

The number suggests the number of days that month where there was at least some physical violence. For example, in March 2022 there was 7 days with at least some physical violence.
      |                        [3/21] 5     *
                        |      [4/21] 24
  |                            [5/21] 2
           |                   [6/21] 10
           |                   [7/21] 10
      |                        [8/21] 6
           |                   [9/21] 10
              |                [10/21] 14
            |                  [11/21] 12 **
        |                      [12/21] 8   ***
    |                          [1/22] 4
   |                           [2/22] 3
       |                       [3/22] 7
   |                           [4/22] 3
          |                    [5/22] 9     ****
|                              [6/22] 0
  |                            [7/22] 2 (so far)

* (Confessions about betrayals by me 2.2.2021)
** (I threatened to end the relationship 25.11.2022)
***(Joined bpdfamily 4.12.2021)
**** (I threatened to end the relationship 27.5.2022)



If you were to give me an outside perspective, what does the stats tell you?
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Go3737
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2022, 09:03:58 AM »

The stats say "get out now".
I know how hard it is to do.
I am on my 4th time returning.
I hear 7 is the charm. Being cool (click to insert in post) Being cool (click to insert in post)
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Manic Miner
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2022, 09:26:48 AM »

What kind of violence are you talking about? Just a push,  validating your personal space or real assault with bruises or marks?

None should suffer any abuse. However, depending on severity, some can be worked on and stopped, some don't and you should separate.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2022, 01:23:16 PM »

If you were to give me an outside perspective, what does the stats tell you?

That you are a data-driven, logical thinker and she is driven by emotion  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

I'm not sure you can deduce too much, since (for example) 4/21 (24 acts of violence) was followed by 2 (3/21) and there is no indication why the drop, unless you have a guess?

It seems she is averaging roughly 7 acts of violence a month if I'm doing my quick math right.

If your value is that you want 0 acts of violence, then there is that data to work through. If you want to preserve the relationship, you would also have to decide how long with no acts of violence is ok. One month? Six? Never again?

I also see that threatening to end the relationship (words) led to virtually no change, whereas actually leaving led to the most change (actions).

There may also be a correlation between violence and holidays, which is something many people in abusive situations can attest to. There is an increase in violent acts toward the end of the year in your violence chart.

She also seemed to swing back to low count (2) after extreme count (24) following your confession, which could suggest she has an internal limit for what is acceptable. Unless she felt she *broke* you that month and you were submissive to a level she found satisfactory.

Things seemed to get a little better after you joined the boards here. Do you have any thoughts about why that might be?

The bigger question seems to be: How much violence is ok for you? I think the data can't tell us too much without knowing where you stand on that. Going by months (which I'm not sure is the best way to tally it), it seems to be an average of slightly less than one violent act per day (4/21 24) to zero (6/22) with 7 per month being the average.

I think my takeaway would be more along the lines of: Asserting a clear boundary led to 0 acts of violence, a first in the data.

Asserting a boundary and then returning is an open question since you are at the beginning of the end of what may have been a tender cycle. She may be feeling secure in the knowledge that you were brought back and now the impulse to hit is increasing.

What do the data tell you?


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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2022, 05:01:28 PM »

There was a time I tracked incidents.  Unfortunately, it was intimacy and not violence, rages, etc.  After our son was born she saw me not as a husband of 12 years but as a father and was compared to her abuser stepfather.  Lack of intimacy was a huge matter for me.  Frequent intimacy of prior years was replaced by periods of 2-4 weeks of less than nothing, often longer.  I used the calendar in the back of my checkbook.  She never noticed.  It was miserable.

Why don't we say 'run' or 'stay'?  Because unless your heart and determination are invested in the change, you're likely to recycle yourself back.  The key is that it's not so much whether how bad it is — we all know it is — it's whether you accept (1) it has to change, (2) the other isn't going to change and (3) therefore you have to do the changing.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2022, 12:18:08 PM by ForeverDad » Logged

15years
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2022, 06:06:00 AM »

The stats say "get out now".
I know how hard it is to do.
I am on my 4th time returning.
I hear 7 is the charm. Being cool (click to insert in post) Being cool (click to insert in post)

Yes so I hear too Smiling (click to insert in post) I guess the stats really do say to get out... I don't even know if the r/s is repairable anymore even if the violence would stop.

What kind of violence are you talking about? Just a push,  validating your personal space or real assault with bruises or marks?

None should suffer any abuse. However, depending on severity, some can be worked on and stopped, some don't and you should separate.

From my journal:
21.7.2021 - "After work: she holds my hair really hard, asking me "What are you afraid of?", spits at me and slaps me multiple times. Calm evening." - I remember this, I was crying so much, it probably went on for 15 minutes. Not the kind of reaction I would have now.
From 6.5.2022 - https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=352794.0

Since I don't stay and receive the violence now, it has changed, but it can still be very violent. I'm much stronger, her upper body is petite but she still kind of has a stubborn strength. Tried to google a translation for a good word in my own language here but I guess it's lost in translation.

Oh and I had lots of bruises last year. Right now I still have a sore finger from an incident in May where I pointed my finger at her and she tried to bend it backwards.

I'm not sure you can deduce too much, since (for example) 4/21 (24 acts of violence) was followed by 2 (5/21) and there is no indication why the drop, unless you have a guess?

4/21 - I was very guilt-ridden and thought there had to be a way for me to make amends. I was filled with anxiety over how to succeed with feeling and thinking the way she wanted me to. In my journals from that month I notice that I knew that this wasn't normal, but I also notice that I took everything she said seriously.

I do know the main reason for the drop 5/21.
She wanted me to stay home from work and I called in sick for anxiety and stayed home for three days (the rest of the week). Our sex life made a come back and for many reasons (long story) I went along and participated in many days/weeks of sexual fantasies about her 'ex-emotional/physical-affair' from a few years back. She wanted him to come visit us, so she contacted him again and they started messaging each other, she showed me everything they wrote to each other. I was jealous but they quickly started arguing, and he stopped responding. Later she has criticized me for going along with these fantasies. She said I should have known this was due to her being severely hurt inside from my betrayals. In fact, it was my fault that she connected with him in the first place years ago. She still contacts him to this day, occasionally sending him messages about her newest realizations about their love for each other, he rarely respond.


I also see that threatening to end the relationship (words) led to virtually no change, whereas actually leaving led to the most change (actions).
...
There is an increase in violent acts toward the end of the year in your violence chart.

She has an irregular menstrual cycle and there was a 98 day gap last fall between the start of one period and the next. This might be one reason, but I don't think it's too significant. Me threatening to end the relationship (words) had an effect but it wasn't immediate. I didn't let go of the divorce thoughts and I think she sensed that. I think 1/22 and 2/22 was less violent because of the sense of threat to the relationship.

There may also be a correlation between violence and holidays, which is something many people in abusive situations can attest to.

Not in my case, I'd say it's the opposite. Me being more home seems to lead to less violence. Fear of shame causes her to control her emotions better. Things tend to be calmer when we are organizing a birthday party for instance.


She also seemed to swing back to low count (2) after extreme count (24) following your confession, which could suggest she has an internal limit for what is acceptable. Unless she felt she *broke* you that month and you were submissive to a level she found satisfactory.

I think she reaches a point where she has exhausted herself with the stress caused by the violence and finds a way to regulate her emotions better for a while.


Things seemed to get a little better after you joined the boards here. Do you have any thoughts about why that might be?

I think this is because I don't think I deserve it and at some point instead of being broken down by her violence, I started getting angry and she had to adjust herself to this change. She tends to attack me LESS when I argue back. She attacks me more when I show weakness.

This board really opened up for other perspectives and made room for my own perspective. Previously she was my guide in moral issues and values. Now I have noticed how disordered her thinking can be, in fact it's still getting worse.


The bigger question seems to be: How much violence is ok for you? I think the data can't tell us too much without knowing where you stand on that. Going by months (which I'm not sure is the best way to tally it), it seems to be an average of slightly less than one violent act per day (4/21 24) to zero (6/22) with 7 per month being the average.

I think my takeaway would be more along the lines of: Asserting a clear boundary led to 0 acts of violence, a first in the data.

Asserting a boundary and then returning is an open question since you are at the beginning of the end of what may have been a tender cycle. She may be feeling secure in the knowledge that you were brought back and now the impulse to hit is increasing.

What do the data tell you?


A lot has changed since 4/21. First, it felt good to be "punished" because it eased the burden of my guilt. Later, being physically attacked validated my fantasies of divorce. Now, I really hate her physical attacks. Maybe the hate I feel can be satisfying in a weird way. While I don't wish for her to attack me anymore, I haven't set a definite boundary against it. Maybe that's the next step.



That you are a data-driven, logical thinker and she is driven by emotion  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)
Ps.
In excel I have a chart which shows the number of physical attacks the last 30 days, it really demonstrates the cyclical nature of the violence.
I have also analyzed the data and compared it to her periods. There is a definite increase in violence from day 12 before her period with the peak being 8 days before her period, and there's a significant low during ovulation (estimated 2 weeks before her period), lowest point being 16 days before her period. After day 8 before her period there is a steady but slow drop all the way to next ovulation although the irregularity of her menstrual cycle makes it hard to analyze data after her period.
The good thing about physical violence is that it's really not up for interpretation. I'm quite impressed with myself that I started writing it down at such an early stage. I also register verbal abuse but only if it doesn't cross over to physical abuse. What I consider to be verbal abuse now differs from my view one year back. I judge her more harshly now Smiling (click to insert in post)


There have been days when I have been so intrigued by these statistics that I have eagerly awaited the next thing to register.


There was a time I tracked incidents.  Unfortunately, it was intimacy and not violence, rages, etc.  After our son was born she saw me not as a husband of 12 years but as a father and was compared to her abuser stepfather.  Lack of intimacy was a huge matter for me.  Frequent intimacy of prior years was replaced by periods of 2-4 weeks of less than nothing, often longer.  I used the calendar in the back of my checkbook.  She never noticed.  It was miserable.

Why don't we say 'run' or 'stay'?  Because unless your heart and determination are invested in the change, you're likely to recycle yourself back.  They key is that it's not so much whether how bad it is — we all know it is — it's whether you accept (1) it has to change, (2) the other isn't going to change and (3) therefore you have to do the changing.

I really get this. There's so much to work through before making the final decision. While I don't feel in love with her anymore, I do care about her and I think I need to grieve the failure of this family more before I'm ready to leave. You know, I told her on Sunday in anger that our r/s is dysfunctional. She said that was really an exaggeration.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 06:12:14 AM by 15years » Logged
Notwendy
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2022, 06:49:56 AM »

She said that was really an exaggeration.

If she told you that you were a pink elephant, would you believe her? Would her telling you this actually mean you are a pink elephant?

I assume you would not believe you are an elephant. Why is this? One boundary is knowing what is you, what isn't you. You know you are a human, not an elephant.

Boundaries can be healthy ones or either be too strong or too weak. When we have emotionally healthy boundaries and someone accuses us of something, we think "is this true or not, is this me, or not me". If it's true, we make amends. If it's not true, we don't have to make amends.

We can be empathetic and validate the feelings " I see you are upset because you think I am a pink elephant" but we don't apologize for being a pink elephant if we aren't one "I am so sorry I'm a clumsy pink elephant who ate all your peanuts" because that is sharing the delusional thinking.

It's very hard to be constantly accused and defined by someone else. I think over time, one begins to think - well maybe I am a pink elephant. Maybe if I tell her I am sorry for trampling the garden and eating her peanuts, she will feel better. Eventually you lose touch with who you are.

It's not possible to change how she thinks. I think there are some fuzzy boundaries here which lead you to buy into her thinking as if somehow, she's an authority on reality and you are not.

It's interesting that she berates you for your experiences before you met her and yet, she's had her own emotional affair. Some of her behavior may be due to projection. However, she breaks what is a huge boundary for people- physical violence is a boundary violation. Maybe she is more prone to it at some points of her cycle but most women don't do this. Most people don't do this.

On your part, I think you have tolerated this due to it possibly being a path to absolution for your guilt of whatever you feel badly about. At some point though, you need to consider if this is reasonable. At the moment, I think it's a fuzzy boundary for you "maybe she has a point here". But maybe she doesn't. Just accusing you of cheating when you clearly can't cheat on someone before you met them, doesn't make it cheating.

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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2022, 09:20:24 AM »

From my journal:
21.7.2021 - "After work: she holds my hair really hard, asking me "What are you afraid of?", spits at me and slaps me multiple times. Calm evening." - I remember this, I was crying so much, it probably went on for 15 minutes. Not the kind of reaction I would have now.
From 6.5.2022 - https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=352794.0

Since I don't stay and receive the violence now, it has changed, but it can still be very violent. I'm much stronger, her upper body is petite but she still kind of has a stubborn strength. Tried to google a translation for a good word in my own language here but I guess it's lost in translation.

Oh and I had lots of bruises last year. Right now I still have a sore finger from an incident in May where I pointed my finger at her and she tried to bend it backwards.

Take this as IMO, of what I have learned about BPD and my own experiences.

When BPDs are being physically violent, they are almost always impulsive. What that means? That it's not planned in advance. They can squeeze your hand, grab your shirt, go close like to punch you. The weapons they use are objects in mere vicinity - books, chairs, phones, pillows, anything.

This is good and bad - good that it's not planned ahead with a purpose of harming you, bad that is still a violence and they have little control of what object/weapon they will use - from pillows to cutlery.

Now, what you have described:

she holds my hair really hard, asking me "What are you afraid of?", spits at me and slaps me multiple times.
I pointed my finger at her and she tried to bend it backwards.


That seems almost sadistic. She doesn't seem to be impulsive, but almost enjoys punishing you. I'm no therapist or anything close to that, so I cannot help you further, but that doesn't seem to be inline with BPD. Like I said, sounds sadistic, more than impulsive.

I'm glad to hear that her violence toned down, but you should never accept to be in that position ever again. And I hope your boys were too small or haven't witnessed it themselves.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2022, 09:58:39 AM »

While I don't wish for her to attack me anymore, I haven't set a definite boundary against it. Maybe that's the next step.

You can not set a boundary "against" anything. It's impossible to control someone else. The boundary is for you. It says what is OK and what isn't.

If your boundary is that you won't tolerate physical abuse, that doesn't change her. If this is your boundary, then this determines how you will respond to physical abuse.

It's either "If she becomes abusive,  I will tolerate it and hope she feels she has punished me enough" or " If she becomes abusive, I will leave immediately".

Boundaries are personal. They may be different for different people. So we can not tell you what to do. 

If your boundary is that you do not want to be in a physically abusive relationship, your choice is to leave.

Boundaries are not "against" anything. Boundaries are "for" YOU and how you will act on being "for you" if someone violates them.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 10:06:31 AM by Notwendy » Logged
bluebutterflies
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2022, 01:55:26 PM »

Hi 15Years. You may consider taking the MOSAIC Method test to see what level of threat to violence you are receiving, on an "objective" level. Take it with a grain of salt.

Ultimately only you can decide how to move forward. I agree with the others on setting your own boundaries as to what you can tolerate or not.
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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2022, 02:07:32 PM »

There have been days when I have been so intrigued by these statistics that I have eagerly awaited the next thing to register.

Meaning, you feel eager to have her be violent with you?
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15years
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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2022, 02:30:31 PM »

Meaning, you feel eager to have her be violent with you?


I remember one day last fall I think when I had that thought and I felt empowered by it. Like I was in control of this. I think it could have been an important development really. I know I wouldn't do anything to deliberately create drama.
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2022, 10:47:57 AM »

I understand.

When I was documenting my ex husband's drinking, there was a part of me that wanted the incidents to be worse. In part to show others how bad it was (once I began sharing with others) but if I am to be honest, it was also to give me proof.

It was a way of seeking validation.

What do you think about having a parallel spreadsheet where you track the times you feel empowered?

I don't know if it's a good idea. I feel concern about tracking the times you are being violently hit if you aren't also recognizing the ways you are helping yourself.

I tracked my ex's drinking during the time I was planning to leave, so just having that spreadsheet was a positive. It meant I was getting my ducks in a row. Maybe your violence spreadsheet is like that for you?
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2022, 08:05:38 AM »

Updating the physical violence stats 7/22-10/22


The number suggests the number of days that month where there was at least some physical violence. For example, in March 2022 there was 7 days with at least some physical violence.
      |                        [3/21] 5     *
                        |      [4/21] 24
  |                            [5/21] 2
           |                   [6/21] 10
           |                   [7/21] 10
      |                        [8/21] 6
           |                   [9/21] 10
              |                [10/21] 14
            |                  [11/21] 12 **
        |                      [12/21] 8   ***
    |                          [1/22] 4
   |                           [2/22] 3
       |                       [3/22] 7
   |                           [4/22] 3
          |                    [5/22] 9     ****
|                              [6/22] 0
  |                            [7/22] 2
  |                            [8/22] 2
  |                            [9/22] 2
   |                           [10/22] 3

* (Confessions about betrayals by me 2/21)
** (I threatened to end the relationship 11/22)
*** (Joined bpdfamily 12/21)
**** (I threatened to end the relationship 5/22)


I've tried to document moments when I've been feeling empowered too, suggestion from livednlearned. Since July, I've felt empowered when:
1. I've left the apartment for 30-minute walks i august every time she became violent. Stopped doing that due to lack of motivation and cold weather.
2. Went to play Padel with a colleague although she was having mysterious illness that's probably partly psycho-somatic. I didn't beg, I was just focused on going without negotiating.
3. In the middle of the night when she was panicking with her health, I suggested that she can call a taxi to take her to the ER, which she did. Instead of waking the kids up and taking her there myself.
4. Started playing Futsal once a week, non-negotiable. I do over-perform every week the hours before the weekly time, but it's a routine I can live with - I see to it that the kids are ready for bed before I leave. I'm improving this routine to eliminate any sense of nervousness. I do my part - then I leave.
5. She was upset over something I said, I listened and didn't get emotional, and I apologized for my part. We dropped the subject.
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2022, 06:29:54 PM »

I understand.

When I was documenting my ex husband's drinking, there was a part of me that wanted the incidents to be worse. In part to show others how bad it was (once I began sharing with others) but if I am to be honest, it was also to give me proof.

It was a way of seeking validation.

What do you think about having a parallel spreadsheet where you track the times you feel empowered?

I don't know if it's a good idea. I feel concern about tracking the times you are being violently hit if you aren't also recognizing the ways you are helping yourself.

I tracked my ex's drinking during the time I was planning to leave, so just having that spreadsheet was a positive. It meant I was getting my ducks in a row. Maybe your violence spreadsheet is like that for you?

Wow.  Very insightful.  I've never considered things this way, but it makes sense. 

I remember my dad telling me that sometimes when my mom was in a bad mood he would intentionally say or do something (basically JADE) to set her off.  That way she would get it out of her system and return to baseline.

I find myself in situations where W is rude to me all day, making sarcastic remarks, or just generally grouchy.  Sometimes this is nearly every day.  I will do my best to keep a distance and do my own thing, but it's hard to justify walking away from the behavior when it is just a grouchy attitude or comments under her breath.  Eventually I get tired of it, and sometimes try to JADE or set her off so that the abusive behavior is more apparent, that way in my mind I feel more justified walking away from it.  I feel validated that this is abuse and not just something I am being overly sensitive to. 

I don't think you or we are alone in this feeling - I think it is a common trait in abusive situations to question whether something is serious or "real".  In my case, I have been through years of wondering if something was "bad enough" or "inexcusable".  I've excused "grouchy moods" and rude words because I grew up hearing my mom make those to my dad.  I thought it was just something married men have to deal with.  I've made excuses for W's behavior - she has a mental illness, she is coming off medication, she is stressed, etc.   But, I have had several Ts and many folks here tell me what I am dealing with.  In the past year I have had a much lower tolerance for it.  Maybe it is because it is finally sinking in.  Maybe because I clearly see how it affects the kids.  Maybe it's literally a survival mechanism. 

My current boundary is no tolerance for rudeness/meanness/sarcasm.  I just can't.  When that starts, I do everything I can to create distance.  Take the dog for a walk.  Take out the trash.  Take a long time in the bathroom.  Find an errand that I need to run (keep a list of this or that that I need from the hardware store).  Find a project that benefits her in some way and tell her I want to get started on it.  If things escalate to name calling, or put downs, I simply leave.  I don't owe her any explanation.  I will send her a message after I leave telling her where I am and when I will be back.  Then I ignore my phone.  Luckily, the most violence I have dealt with the past few years is slammed doors.  When I choose to leave the abuse is when things are most likely to be violent - so I make sure to position myself so that I can walk out the door without having to walk past her.

It really is about safety.  I think you should make a goal of zero violent incidents per month.  Not that she is not violent, but that *you* arent present for it when she is.  Leave before it gets to that point. 
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2022, 07:15:34 PM »

 Paragraph header (click to insert in post) Potential Triggering Topics  Paragraph header (click to insert in post)

Violence is Violence, no matter how it happens. 

I've been able to nip my uBPDw violence by setting firm boundaries with dire consequences -- the 'nuclear' option has been put in place by her T's -- same thing applies for her suicide threats/attempts which is another form of violence:
1.  Her T's (couple and individual) will be informed of it ASAP.
2.  Her T's will in turn report it to the authorities.  [This has been done once already, I have enough for a 2nd report but won't execute it unless she does violence again]

Quotes to ponder from Randi Kreger about violence:
  • "50% of all women who batter have BPD"
  • Threatens violence or physical action; or puts a violent hand on you, even if it doesn't hurt too bad; or destroys objects; or makes you feel physically unsafe in any way.

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« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2022, 05:42:30 AM »

When that starts, I do everything I can to create distance.  Take the dog for a walk.  Take out the trash.  Take a long time in the bathroom.  Find an errand that I need to run (keep a list of this or that that I need from the hardware store).  Find a project that benefits her in some way and tell her I want to get started on it.  If things escalate to name calling, or put downs, I simply leave.  I don't owe her any explanation.  I will send her a message after I leave telling her where I am and when I will be back.  Then I ignore my phone.

Thanks for sharing your strategies. A to-do list could be useful in my case, also for reminding myself that there are other things to think about too, so I can avoid engaging emotionally.

I agree that violence and drama can serve as validation. That's often not a helpful mechanism but it's probably an important self-preservation mechanism.
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« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2022, 05:48:34 AM »

Paragraph header (click to insert in post) Potential Triggering Topics  Paragraph header (click to insert in post)

Violence is Violence, no matter how it happens. 

I've been able to nip my uBPDw violence by setting firm boundaries with dire consequences -- the 'nuclear' option has been put in place by her T's -- same thing applies for her suicide threats/attempts which is another form of violence:
1.  Her T's (couple and individual) will be informed of it ASAP.
2.  Her T's will in turn report it to the authorities.  [This has been done once already, I have enough for a 2nd report but won't execute it unless she does violence again]

Quotes to ponder from Randi Kreger about violence:
  • "50% of all women who batter have BPD"
  • Threatens violence or physical action; or puts a violent hand on you, even if it doesn't hurt too bad; or destroys objects; or makes you feel physically unsafe in any way.


Sounds like a comfortable place to be to be able to inform her T. Maybe I could have that too if only I would dare have the authorities be involved.

At this point at least my tolerance for physical violence is lower than one year ago. Somehow in self-hate and sense of submission I was able to also get validation by being treated badly.
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« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2022, 05:47:47 PM »

"Threatens violence or physical action; or puts a violent hand on you, even if it doesn't hurt too bad; or destroys objects; or makes you feel physically unsafe in any way."

This is important.  Kids' T basically said that slamming doors or screaming loudly constitutes violence.  I think this also includes violence against herself.  W has hit me a few times, thrown things at me, and tried preventing me from leaving.  All violence.   So is the slamming doors so hard the hinges break. 

It's enough for you to be naturally alarmed, take protective measures, and raise your blood pressure.
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« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2022, 06:03:57 PM »

Also - even years of "little stuff" wears you down.  I spent a few years compartmentalizing, making excuses, and in denial.  I had coping mechanisms.  One by one the "coping mechanisms" stopped working.  It will catch up with you, change the way you think, your reactions, your moods.  This is normal.  I see your documentation of the violence as a type "coping mechanism".  I did similar.  It became a way of detaching from the emotions of what was happening.   
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« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2022, 03:24:50 AM »

Yesterday she told me she is a very calm, down to earth, observant person that would never had become violent if i didn't cause her to become so. She also told me she is an aggressive person and easily "see red" and that people should notice that just by looking at her and know that they shouldn't step on her toes.

Then she said her big brother, just like me provoked her all the time. One time she scratched him in response and he was on her a long time about how he had to lie at school about being attacked by a cat.

This was new to me and made me see that she was physically violent even as a kid. I'm surprised it took her so long to become violent towards me.

So as she sees herself as a victim, violence from her feels like a defense mechanism even though there's no real threath to her. Right?
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« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2022, 10:41:05 AM »

So as she sees herself as a victim, violence from her feels like a defense mechanism even though there's no real threath to her. Right?

In her mind - that is probably what is going on.  I know the times my W has been physically violent towards my body have always when I have tried to leave the abuse - walk out the door.  Somehow she sees me leaving as a threat that somehow justifies violence.  The other violence (slamming doors, throwing or breaking things) she either justifies or denies afterwards - or she may truly not remember.  But she never, ever has seen me spending an hour fixing a door and said, "I'm sorry.  I have a violent temper and I am working on it."   Instead I hear "It is an old door and all that damage was not because of me" (the most damaged door is one that I put in 6 months before I met her).  Deep down for my W I know she knows the violence is wrong.  I think it is a defense mechanism to deny it, because she has an extreme fear of being judged or blamed.  

Your W saying that you somehow deserve the violence seems quite scary.   That goes a step beyond just justifying it. 
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« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2022, 11:54:30 AM »

Mm... She says violence is wrong and often apologize, but she says that i in turn don't confess that i have done wrong. She says we have both been violent but mine is worse because it was unprovoked, and that i don't take responsibility.
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« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2022, 12:35:45 PM »

Probably you need to let go the idea that it takes 7 tries to leave.  That's an average of the reported attempts.  Let go that fixation that you have plenty of time.  Maybe you do, likely you don't.

My thoughts are that you'll leave when you have to leave, not when you are prepared.  Likely you'll be caught off guard.  It will be late at night... or when the police come to knock on your door... and you can't take the children with you...

Strange thing... at the time the police won't care about your spouse's past documented rants, rages and abuse.  Their attention will be on the current incident and spouse's current claims and allegations.  And of course odds are you won't have had the presence of mind or ability to have recorded this particular incident to defend yourself.  Police only care about the current ongoing incident and how to resolve the incident.  The rest they advise, as mine did, "fix this in court".  And off you go.

My lawyer, a former policeman, said default policy is to cart off the man (in some places it is both) regardless the protests of innocence.  When police came to my house (yikes, has it been 17 years?) they tried to cart me off but our preschooler refused to leave my arms, even shrieked.  I always say my son saved me that day.  I was very fortunate.
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« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2022, 12:59:44 PM »

My lawyer, a former policeman, said default policy is to cart off the man (in some places it is both) regardless the protests of innocence.  When police came to my house (yikes, has it been 17 years?) they tried to cart me off but our preschooler refused to leave my arms, even shrieked.  I always say my son saved me that day.  I was very fortunate.

I remember the very first time my W started a violent rant and started talking about suicide.  I called police.  I expected them to come and see her behavior and take her to the hospital and get her help.  They came over, she screamed at the police and was generally out of control.   But she did not make statements or actions indicating suicide while they were here.  The police took me outside, basically said "I don't know what's wrong with her, but she is crazy."  THen they suggested I simply leave and get a hotel and in their experience "most likely she will simply move out" and then I change my locks and phone number.   In other words, they agree there is a big problem, but legally they can do nothing.
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« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2022, 06:27:47 AM »

Legally, they can do nothing, but you  can if you choose to.

The law can't take this further without action on your part.

I recall contacting social services about my concerns about my parents' relationship but they have no way to intervene. Just like someone can call CPS, so can adult children call adult social services. But the difference is that an adult in legally competent mind can make their own decisions while a child can not. Social services, law enforcement- they will intervene to protect a child but adults can make their own decisions. The law won't decide your relationship for you.

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« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2022, 01:50:43 PM »

legally they can do nothing.

That may be true for suicidal ideation, though with DV I think it depends on where you live.

In the US, some states like mine compel charges. Meaning, if law enforcement is called to a DV incident, it is mandatory for the person who made the call to file charges. Some states will arrest both.

In other states, who gets arrested can come down to a decision tree with criteria for who appears more threatening. Such as whether one or both appear intoxicated or unhinged. Or who is the bigger threat which is why men are more likely to get arrested, although if someone has an object in their hand that could be used as a weapon that also changes the calculus.

A third party like a neighbor calling to make the report can also influence who gets hauled away, based on their assessment when they make the call.

It's a form of insurance to know how things work where you live so you don't end up living your worst nightmare, or at least worse than what it needs to be.

Not surprisingly, you may end up being accused of doing exactly what your BPD spouse does to you, a massive projection that can also be a form of psychosis induced by high stress.

Once the legal system is involved it's very hard to handle things in a level-headed therapeutic way because now both parties feel cornered and in a one-down position. For men, this is made worse by the bias of men being more violent in general.

Matt, a member from years ago, used to advise people (men in particular) to research criminal lawyers and carry a card with the name of someone you would call in the event you were falsely accused of DV.

He was falsely accused of DV despite his wife being the aggressor and spent time in jail.

My lawyer outlined a plan I was to follow based on different scenarios, including what to do if things escalated on the weekend, or at night, which is when things typically got worse in our home. She also explained what to do if things got violent, and what would happen if I got a protective order.

In other words, I walked through worse-case scenarios well in advance, thinking these issues would not happen. As a result, I was 10 steps ahead and that helped stabilize things for everyone. Any benefit I could've received from the court system by being female was negated by n/BPDx being an attorney since he weaponized the legal system the same way pathologic high-conflict women do in these cases.

This isn't scare-mongering, it's about being candid that our marriages, when a spouse is dangerous, require an understanding of logical consequences that we ignore at our peril.
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« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2022, 04:19:46 PM »

Matt's experience was what I remembered too even before LnL mentioned his encounter with his police visit.  He was a prolific poster sharing his experiences, support and advice, over 14,000 posts over the years.  Years later he was able to look back without the distress at the time he was arrested overnight...

I thought about writing a book about my experience - 16 hours of hard time.  If I did, I think I would title it based on the most memorable quote from one of my cellmates:  "Yo white man you snoring!"  Good times, good times...

Really, LnL wrote an excellent post about possible scenarios and how to minimize the worst of the possibilities, seeking "less bad" options.
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« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2022, 05:14:39 PM »

Another thing to consider is that child protective services may become involved if there is domestic violence in a home. Some members here have experienced being put on supervised visitation after being falsely accused of DV.

In my case, I was the female victim of domestic violence and I lost custody of my children for "failure to protect" them from witnessing domestic violence.
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« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2022, 05:45:40 PM »

In my case, I was the female victim of domestic violence and I lost custody of my children for "failure to protect" them from witnessing domestic violence.

I fear this.  It's hard to know what my responsibilities are in every scenario.  My fear is that the kids will do/say something at school that will get CPS involved, and a finger will be pointed at me for being aware of Ws behavior and not doing enough to protect them.  I do have faith that should that happen, I will be dealing with rational professionals who can sort/see through things.  One thing about my W is that she is low-functioning and has poor relationships with nearly everyone.  Her issues are quite out in the open and she isn't good at convincing people she is rational for very long. 
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