Not incompetent and deliberate

[Notwendy]

I wondered about this too, but she's been evaluated and isn't mentally incompetent. I actually think her behavior is intentional. It's not quite paranoia- I think it's projection. If she'd do it, she assumes we would too. I don't like to lie but I have done it to keep boundaries with her.

If she knows we want something- that is what she won't give us, because she wants control. She knows we want to have these discussions and has been refusing this, for years now.

Fortunately, she is willing to hire people to help her and she has great medical care. Her doctor sees her frequently and knows her well. I think she's in good hands. On my part, I think I don't really care much anymore about what she does with her own money and her own decisions. I feel as if I have tried all I can. She won't be honest about it. She's going to do whatever she wants to do.

I do think she's intentionally trying to be punitive by not having these discussions so I have disengaged from them.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
You are doing a great job in disengaging from conversations with your mother that are not going to lead to any kind of productive results.

[Couscous]

She definitely seems to be dealing with paranoia, and I wonder if she may also have Paranoid Personality Disorder, because it sounds like she is this way much of the time. Paranoid ideation in someone with BPD is normally stress induced.

I don’t think it’s particularly helpful to assume that everything she does is done with the intent to hurt you, although it does sound like she does engage in deliberately hurtful actions too, but perhaps not quite as much as you think. But either way, it does sound like no longer personalizing her behavior and disengaging is your best option.

[Notwendy]

Thanks, it's hard to know what her exact motive is. Her thinking is so disordered. You are right about not taking it personally. I can see now that she does this with everyone- so it's her, not anyone else. Sad for her, but it's beyond my ability to do anything about it.

[Couscous]

Right, and I would go further to say that even if she does do some things only to you, it is still about her and not you.

[Notwendy]

Thanks. It's a sad situation for her, but I know I can't do anything to change how she thinks.

[Couscous]

I actually think it’s sadder for us than it is for them. They seem to be so walled off emotionally that they probably can’t feel much if anything, especially not painful feelings.

I’ve heard it said that there really are just two emotions: fear and love. Your mother is ruled by fear, so she does what she needs to do to feel safe, even if it drives away the people who love her. Protecting herself is her highest priority and as such, there is no room in her life for loving relationships or happiness.

Think of her as an abused stray cat that refuses all attempts to be rescued because she’s too frightened of people. Even though you have cosy house with a warm fire burning, a soft cushion and bowl of milk ready for her, she would rather stay outside in the cold and rain than risk stepping inside your door.

Your mother has probably learned from experience that family cannot be trusted, and that is a very sad thing indeed. 

[Methuen]

Think of her as an abused stray cat that refuses all attempts to be rescued because she’s too frightened of people. Even though you have cosy house with a warm fire burning, a soft cushion and bowl of milk ready for her, she would rather stay outside in the cold and rain than risk stepping inside your door.

Great analogy, and a direct result of unresolved trauma.  In their day, there was not much if anything in resources for dealing with trauma.  In addition, it wasn't culturally acceptable to "get help".  That somehow would mean you were "weak" and there was something wrong with you. There was (and is) so much shame in acknowledging mental illness, which is widely acknowledged as stemming from trauma as much as inheriting certain genes.

I am somewhat hopeful that the culture is shifting with younger generations, and there seems to be more acknowledgement of mental health issues, and open mindedness to getting help.  In some quarters, having a T can even be trendy, which is also kind of odd, in a privileged sort of way.

It's kind of sad that in the past, society and culture has readily accepted help for physical trauma, but not for reasons around emotional trauma.  Meanwhile, the damage from emotional trauma seems to have a big multiplier effect.  Just look at intergenerational trauma (which stays in families for generations), not to mention the butterfly effect of carnage resulting from leaders behind some of the wars that have happened in the world throughout history.   

How much money could be saved if as much investment was put into helping resolve emotional trauma as helping physical trauma?  Just thinking out loud in a philosophical kind of way here.

It's a miserable life the cat leads who chooses to stay outside in the cold and rain and be hungry because of fear, rather than take a risk and go inside the house with an open door and warmth and food, and cuddly love.

And yet I fear my mother...but at least I can also love other people.  I don't think she truly knows what love is.  But that's another story.

[Methuen]

On my part, I think I don't really care much anymore about what she does with her own money and her own decisions. I feel as if I have tried all I can. She won't be honest about it. She's going to do whatever she wants to do.

I do think she's intentionally trying to be punitive by not having these discussions so I have disengaged from them.

This is where I am too NW.  I disengaged from the drama and mom's litany of bad decisions. To me, it seems like self-sabotage.  One subtle difference in our mothers is that yours leans heavily towards the punitive side, while mine leans heavily towards my weakness - feeling guilty.  She makes me feel terrible. I just don't even have the words to articulate how bad she could make me feel.  She used to be punitive in a vengeful kind of way in the past (an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth), but that changed as she got older.  The punitive thing didn't really work against me, but the guilt thing really really did.  So she uses more FOG strategies cs they're so successful.  Both our mom's lie.  They don't think of it as lying because they actually believe their own lies (anything they think, they say, and this becomes a fact for them).  I truly believe my mom can't see that her lies are lies, because they're swimming in a mountain of denial and other self-defense strategies.  It's distorted thinking.  And their distorted thinking is still "real" for them, and is their truth.

I'm sorry that you're going through this with your mom.  But I think that so many of us with BPD mom's are coming through the other end of it by detaching and letting them keep their control of their decisions.  They live with the consequences of their decisions.  We have to let them live with those consequences.  They want the control.  They are adults.  They can have their control.  We on the other hand, can have our boundaries.

As Couscous says, it is sad for us because we can see the problems, the unnecessary suffering they put themselves (and us) through as a result of their decisions.  But I don't see any other way, because any other way leads to them controlling us, intolerable conflict, mental unwellness for us, and that big black hole we are all fighting to stay outside of.

[Notwendy]

As Couscous says, it is sad for us because we can see the problems, the unnecessary suffering they put themselves (and us) through as a result of their decisions.  But I don't see any other way, because any other way leads to them controlling us, intolerable conflict, mental unwellness for us, and that big black hole we are all fighting to stay outside of.

I think it's the inevitable decision- to detach. We can't change it or make it different for them, at some point, we just have to decide it's how they choose it. You have done so much for your mother, living closer to her. It's hard to feel we have done enough when it seems nothing we do is enough, but you have done a lot for your mother.

[Couscous]

Notwendy,

I came across SMART Recovery when looking into alternatives to 12 Step meetings, and have found their approach, which is based on a form of CBT called REBT, to be exceptionally helpful.

Here is a brief explanation of REBT which may be of interest to you:

www.rebtnetwork.org/whatis.html

And here us something on the concept of unconditional other acceptance, which I think is very similar to radical acceptance:

https://www.smartrecovery.org/usa-and-uoa-unconditional-self-acceptance-and-unconditional-other-acceptance/

[Notwendy]

Thanks, it looks interesting- I will look into it.