NPD/borderline

[Really now]

How much crossover is there between narcissism and BPD? I am realizing that it is the narcissist that may have caused the BPD in my daughter. As we both receive trauma therapy, our mood issues are shrinking.

The narcissist caused our mood issues by traumatizing us. And underneath all that, he was probably traumatized, too. But as a smart, wealthy male in a patriarchy, his trauma was not addressed, yet he was excessively praised for intelligence. His parents created a monster rather than acknowledge sexual abuse. Those selfish cowards celebrated the successes and Swept messy truths under a rug.

He became a lawyer advocating for “victims”. Most lawyers are narcissists. Not all, but many. He victimized us regularly, and remarried a woman whose first husband survived the Towers and was shot dead in an office shooting the next year. He clearly craves victims that can bring him narcissistic supply.

Revelations states that in the end times men will be lovers of themselves. These insights come to me as I prepare to fight an even bigger Goliath. I’m ready. This battle isn’t mine. I’m handing it over to god.

The important takeaway from these insights is that becoming emotionally resilient is a choice, like eating junk food is a choice. If you accept the waves of pain and become tolerant and allow them to pass, you become stronger.

So with all my strength, I will hand this over to god because I have battled this most of my life, and the enemies just get stronger and multiply. If this is all part of gods plan, he has something big in mind.

[kells76]

Hi Really now;

Great question about the overlap/relationship between NPD & BPD, and a question that many here have wondered. Not sure if you've seen it yet -- we have a workshop all about that very topic, here: COMPARISON: Narcissistic Personality Disorder vs BPD

One excerpt that I found helpful was in this post:

...
 How to Distinguish NPD from Borderline Personality Disorder

pwNPD traits differ from pwBPD traits in that pwNPD traits have a relatively stable self-image, and lack self-destructiveness, impulsivity, and abandonment fears.
 
Otto Kernberg MD (Cornell) differentiates between the person with NPD and those with borderline personality disorder (BPD) on the basis of:
 

(1) their relatively good social functioning,

(2) their better impulse control, and

(3) their "pseudosublimatory" potential, namely, the capacity for active, consistent work in some areas which permits them partially to fulfill their ambitions of greatness and of obtaining admiration from others.  Highly intelligent patients with this personality structure may appear as quite creative in their fields:  narcissistic personalities can often be found as leaders in industrial organizations or academic institutions; they may also be outstanding performers in some artistic domain.  Careful observation, however, of their productivity over a long period of time will give evidence of superficiality and flightiness in their work, of a lack of depth which eventually reveals the emptiness behind the glitter.  Quite frequently these are the "promising" geniuses who then surprise other people by the banality of their development.  They also are able to exert self-control in anxiety-producing situations, which may at first appear as good anxiety tolerance; however, analytic exploration shows that their anxiety tolerance is obtained at the cost of increasing their narcissistic fantasies and of withdrawing into "splendid isolation." This tolerance of anxiety does not reflect an authentic capacity for coming to terms with a disturbing reality.

Except for instances of severe forms of NPD, these individuals are more capable of high, sustained achievement and will have a more successful work history than the person with Borderline Personality Disorder.
 
Both persons with NPDs and BPDs place great importance on attention; however, unlike borderlines, who "seek nurturing attention because they need it, narcissists feel they deserve admiring attention because of their superiority."
 
Persons with either Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder tend to have have weak interpersonal relationships, struggle to love others, have difficulty empathizing, are egocentric in their perceptions of reality, and have a great need for attention.  Unlike the borderline personality, however, because the personality of someone with NPD is more well-integrated, people with NPD are less likely to have episodes of psychotic states, especially when under stress.
 
A key distinguishing feature of BPD is neediness; in contrast, for NPD an important discriminator is grandiosity.  Likewise, persons with NPD are less self-destructive, have better impulse control, a higher tolerance for anxiety, and are less preoccupied with dependency and abandonment issues than are BPDs.
 
Finally, the self-mutilation and persistent overt rage that are often characteristic of the borderline personality are absent in NPD.

My H's kids' mom has many BPD type traits, and she remarried to a man with many strong NPD traits. It's... challenging    The kids have bought into many of their distortions.

I too have had to trust that God will do what He plans to do with the kids, and that I can't make them believe in Him -- that's not in my control. Similar to you handing your situation over to God.

I hope that link to the workshop is helpful for you;

kells76

[tob]

My ex-husband is a lawyer and has NPD. Our daughter has BPD and is narcissistic as well imo

[kells76]

tob, it's so important to do exactly what you're doing, and take some time to reflect on our family systems. Often we can see how through generations and relationships, dysfunction has shown up in different ways.

For me, while it is difficult still to look at my FOO (family of origin), I can say that my mom's dad had many NPD traits, my mom's mom parentified my mom, my dad's mom has rigid/B&W thinking & possibly splits people, and my dad's dad might enable my dad's mom. My dad also has rigid thinking (his way is the right way) and my mom has said she has a C-PTSD diagnosis.

My HS best friend's mom has strong low-functioning BPD traits. My H's kids' mom has many BPD type traits and married my H's former best friend, who has strong NPD type traits. Two of my H's sisters have BPD type traits.

So, whether by choice or circumstance, I have surrounded myself with people whose behaviors, or whose loved ones' behaviors, probably feel very familiar to me.

We can check out this workshop on Family systems--understanding the narcissistic family (note, that's not necessarily a diagnostic term, more descriptive), and learn about roles and expectations in a disordered family system. This can help us have some insight into where we came from (relationships of circumstance) and why we've entered some other relationships (relationships of choice).

The Parent, Sibling, or In-law Suffering from BPD board has many great threads exploring NPD/BPD in family relationships -- feel free to check it out.

Thanks tob and Really now for keeping this discussion going.

[captain5024]

Good morning,

I was diagnosed with NPD in my late 30s, although I had the symptoms much earlier than that.   My current spouse I assume has uBPD (I would be willing to bet the farm).  We are now in the process of divorce (my story is in different threads throughout the last 18 months on this site).   I can give you the differences I've seen and what I've learned through my therapy and recovery.

NPDs are fearful of not existing.  BPDs are fearful of being abandoned.  BPDs are "undeveloped NPDs", their brain could never become a full-fledged NPD (for whatever reason)...the false-self was never truly developed as a defense mechanism.

Both are dysfunctional and toxic.  The NPD can find "supply" in things other than a relationship.  The BPD can not to the same satisfaction. 

As a child I would have panic attacks and depression passing a cemetary.  I would have fears about my own death.  As an adult I continued these fears and developed serious hypochondria when my narcissistic supply went away. 

As long as I had narcissistic supply, I was more or less "fine".  BPDs seem to be more unpredictable, their abandonment issues seem to come and go.    Their response is also more dysfunctional, where the NPD just wants his narcissistic supply back ASAP (the glass house needs to be rebuilt quickly because the pain of acknowledging the true self, the destroyed self is too great).

I went through a lot of therapy (many different modes) after my diagnosis.  I acknowledge my diagnosis, accept it and also have begun to acknowledge and rebuild my destroyed true-self.  I don't think I'm pathological or clinical anymore, although I will always have NPD traits (some of which are really beneficial).

I can't say the same for my soon to be ex with uBPD.  There is no acknowledgment, no acceptance and only a surface level interest in any therapy.  Her lying and ups and downs are eventually what lead to the divorce filing.  A shame, because I empathize with her plight, I understand the weight personality disorders place on a person, the sadness, the depression, the toxic nature.  I obviously understand this...I am her biggest advocate.  But, she can't get her sh*t together.

The one thing I still do is I can discard amazing quickly.  I see this as a positive in our society, but of course I talk about it with my therapist so I can have a more shades-of-gray view of the person than black/white, good/evil. 

I hope this helps.  It is not science, it is my experience being a NPD and attracted to a woman with BPD.

[MeandThee29]

My ex was diagnosed with both by our mutual therapist. She said that because he was solidly on the malignant side, you can have a situation where the differences become hard to separate, particularly if they are doing what she called "shape-shifting," which involves manipulating those around them in different ways depending on who they are with.

Gosh, I'm glad I'm out of that, almost three years now since the divorce was final.