Need help reinforcing my boundaries.

[Our abuse recovery guide]

My sister left me alone over the weekend, but isn’t letting the boundary go.  I am determined to set and enforce my boundaries with her.  My therapist feels this is a critical point and it feels congruent with the advice I have gotten here.

As you recall, initially she proposed  a meeting to talk about past, present and future of the Trust, my reply, “ ..Trust is up to date and fully funded.  I want to focus on mom.”

This morning I get this:
” We should focus on her recovery together. It will benefit her the most! Let me know your intentions on a plan for moving forward. This is an honest and very sincere question! - Could we set up a time to talk? Regarding the trust, you say, “It is fully funded and up to date.” As equal co-trustee, daughter and sister, I need to understand and agree to the choices and decisions that have been made without me. If you won’t communicate with me, how do you propose that we are co-managing the trust? “

The first part is essentially a copy paste of her prior message when I said I wanted to focus on mom.  She tends to describe things in very general and grandiose terms ( often she also adds, mother, wife to her list) and never gets specific about what she wants to talk about.    But it is clear, she wants to rehash the “ past”.   There are no active decisions related to the trust… yes, I got an attorney, but that attorney represents me and the trust hasn’t paid for it ( even though most of the work has been trust administration and is a legitimate trust cost).  All of the decisions she feels excluded from are HC decisions that she was involved in but didn’t agree with me on, related to my mom’s care facility.  She wants to make them “ trust decisions”.  They aren’t.

I need feedback on this response: “ Please be more specific about the  decisions from the past you want to understand, and what information you need.  I would prefer email communication.  Phone meetings don’t work for me.”
 

[Mommydoc]

My sister left me alone over the weekend, but isn’t letting the boundary go.  I am determined to set and enforce my boundaries with her.  My therapist feels this is a critical point and it feels congruent with the advice I have gotten here.

As you recall, initially she proposed  a meeting to talk about past, present and future of the Trust, my reply, “ ..Trust is up to date and fully funded.  I want to focus on mom.”

This morning I get this:
” We should focus on her recovery together. It will benefit her the most! Let me know your intentions on a plan for moving forward. This is an honest and very sincere question! - Could we set up a time to talk? Regarding the trust, you say, “It is fully funded and up to date.” As equal co-trustee, daughter and sister, I need to understand and agree to the choices and decisions that have been made without me. If you won’t communicate with me, how do you propose that we are co-managing the trust? “

The first part is essentially a copy paste of her prior message when I said I wanted to focus on mom.  She tends to describe things in very general and grandiose terms ( often she also adds, mother, wife to her list) and never gets specific about what she wants to talk about.    But it is clear, she wants to rehash the “ past”.   There are no active decisions related to the trust… yes, I got an attorney, but that attorney represents me and the trust hasn’t paid for it ( even though most of the work has been trust administration and is a legitimate trust cost).  All of the decisions she feels excluded from are HC decisions that she was involved in but didn’t agree with me on, related to my mom’s care facility.  She wants to make them “ trust decisions”.  They aren’t.

I need feedback on this response: “ Please be more specific about the  decisions from the past you want to understand, and what information you need.  I would prefer email communication.  Phone meetings don’t work for me.”
 

[kells76]

Hey Mommydoc;

Well, your sister certainly is relentless in trying to get her emotional needs met through outsourcing them onto you, huh...

You did great with your initial reply here:

“ ..Trust is up to date and fully funded.  I want to focus on mom.”

no loopholes or "invitations" or doors to walk through, just firm, assertive statements.

It makes sense that your T is seeing this time as critical -- some might describe what your S is doing as an "extinction burst", where for so long she could "hit the button [make an indirect appeal to you to get her emotions soothed] and get results", but now, she "hits the button" and isn't getting the results she expected and wanted. So... she's REALLY hitting the button extra hard.

It'll be important to maintain now on your end that "hitting the button doesn't give the results any more". If you respond to her in a way that goes back to how things were, or treats the supposed content of her text as legitimate (instead of "bait" or "an invitation for you to soothe her"), she may learn that "hitting the button EXTRA hard gets results".

So! How can we look at some possible responses, and, in congruence with what your T is thinking, allow your S to have her extinction burst and then soothe herself, without going back to old patterns.

Here's your idea of where to start:

“ Please be more specific about the  decisions from the past you want to understand, and what information you need.  I would prefer email communication.  Phone meetings don’t work for me.”

The first thing I'm thinking is that asking her to be more specific is an open door for her to make demands and ultimately to get your engagement and focus. I suspect that it feels emotionally good to her to pull your energy and focus away from your mom(!), your family, your work, and on to her. This may be black-and-white thinking at work: "You can only choose me or them, and if you choose them, even for a moment, it means you reject me. Rejecting all your other responsibilities and focusing on me is the only way for me to be important to you."

If it were me, I wouldn't invite more dialog (argument) by suggesting she be more specific.

Another thought is to tweak language about "preferences" -- you did a good job when saying "Phone meetings don't work for me" 

"Preferring" email communication could be another open door for an argument -- it's an invitation for her to go on about how "Well, I DON'T prefer email communication, etc etc etc". Even arguing and negative engagement are still engagement for her.

So you could tweak anything about "I'd rather" or "My preference is" to be instead "X does not work for me", "Y works for me", or "I am able to do Z". Not unkind, just assertive.

...

The other thing that seems to me is still going on is -- she's a capable, competent adult! And a co-trustee! So how on earth is it that YOU have to be the one to give her all this information? Is she completely unable to contact the trust to "find out and understand the decisions that have been made"?

I wonder if we can find a way to pass that responsibility back to her. It could look like:

"Thanks for caring about Mom's recovery, that means a lot to her. Don't hesitate to contact Ms. X at (123) 456-7890 to get the trust documentation you need. Have a great Lunar New Year, -Mommydoc"

That's one idea for acknowledging her text (I think I'm tracking with you that completely ignoring it isn't something you want to do, or isn't in line with your values? Not engaging is also an option!), while keeping all the side doors closed.

My overall suspicion is that she cannot have a finite list of past decisions that she wants to understand, because, as you said, keeping that "I just don't understand..." infinite means she can keep coming back to you and making it your responsibility to fill her infinite emotional needs.

Thoughts?

 

kells76

[GaGrl]

Do I understand correctly that your mother's status continues to be hospice care? If so, did that affect you the trust at all?

[Notwendy]

I agree with Kells here. Do not ask her a question in her reply- at all. It keeps a gate open in your boundary for her to reply and ask for more understanding. "I don't understand" is a perpetual victim role.

This is going to go against your own nature. Your desire- and your skill set- is to help people, to explain their situation to them, to help them understand what is going on. I will propose that the skills and attributes you have that make you effective as someone in a helping profession are the same attributes that play into the dynamics with a manipulative or needy person with BPD or someone who chooses victim position.
 
A boundary needs to be firm, to the point. To you, it's going to feel downright mean and your sister will respond as if it is mean. It's not mean to be firm but you will feel like it is as you would prefer to not have to be.

This dynamic is what goes on with my mother and me. If I want to have a boundary about something, she can continue to push at it, and push, and push until finally I have to have a firm no. Then, her response is to feel so hurt, and how could I do such a thing. It feels awful. I don't want to be in that position. I try to avoid it- nice polite hints, changing the subject, gentle responses. These don't work. Only a firm no does, and then trying to manage my feelings when her response is as if I did something to hurt her. Whether she intends this or not, my empathy seems to be an opportunity for her.

Has anything changed since your mother is in hospice care? I assume it has not. If not, there's nothing to discuss. If there's a change- then have someone notify your sister about it. I agree with the others, do not enter any discussion with her that isn't absolutely necessary.

My reply would be like Kells. Nice, to the point, and no discussion.


"Thanks for caring about Mom's recovery, that means a lot to her. There are no new changes to the trust and so I am not available to discuss what is already in place.. If you need a copy of the trust, please contact  Ms. X at (123) 456-7890 to get the trust documentation you need. I will let you know if Mom's condition changes"

Then take cover for the reaction.




 

[Couscous]

I need feedback on this response: “ Please be more specific about the  decisions from the past you want to understand, and what information you need.  I would prefer email communication.  Phone meetings don’t work for me.”

I would sidestep her request for the phone meeting and just ask this:

"I'm more than happy to answer any of your questions about my decisions. What specifically would you like to understand?"

If she is sincere, then she will ask you her questions. If she's playing a game, she will keep pushing for a phone meeting, and then you can just slam that door shut with a clear conscience.

[Mommydoc]

Thanks Kells76, Notwendy, GaGrl and Couscous.

Nothing has changed with the trust as a result of going into hospice, other than hospice covers some costs that we were paying out of pocket for. Thank you for reinforcing the need for strong boundaries during her extinction burst, and reinforcing the need  to not respond when she pushes the button, as it will risk a partial reinforcement. Also pointing out that asking for more specifics is opening the door for more engagement! Here I go again treating her like a rationale person by seeking to understand. Ugh.  Notwendy, you are right that it goes against my nature, but I am very willing to do it, regardless of her response. Anything else is self sabotage, and would not help anyone.

Here is my new version taking your feedback into account.
  Thank you for the shared priority on mom’s recovery and comfort. I know that means a lot to her.

The trust is up to date and no changes are required at this time.  No important trust decisions have been made without you.   Email communication works best for me.

Mom started speech therapy today and seems to be talking more. As long as she remains stable, I will take my planned vacation 2/18-2/25. I will let you know if mom’s condition changes.

I left out the part about “contact Ms X…” as my attorney just sent her the most recent trust documents  and my attorneys  name by itself is very triggering to her. I did write one version that said have your attorney contact my attorney if you have additional information needs related to the trust, but my husband felt that was also opening the door and would trigger WW III so I took it out.

I added no trust decisions have been made without you to further enforce there is nothing to talk about. The only decisions of any importance I have made against her wishes are HCPOA decisions which she wants to claim are trustee decisions but legally that is not accurate.

I added the part about my vacation, because I might as well make her aware while she is already triggered and get it out of the way. Waiting to send until I get feedback here. Thanks everyone so much!

[Couscous]

I think what you’ve written is good. Perhaps you could add something along the lines of that you wish you could both have been in agreement about the decision on your mom’s care facility and that you can understand that this must have been upsetting for her.

I thought these were some pretty good tips (with the exception of #4) on how to de-escalate conflict:  https://www.choosingtherapy.com/phrases-to-disarm-a-narcissist/

[Mommydoc]

Thanks Couscous.  Your links are always so good.  This one I am putting in my journal, as they are excellent and great to keep going back to.  Once previously I wrote out mini scripts with phrases like these, in response to what I anticipated.  It helped a lot in the conversation, both in validating her and making me feel comfortable I could respond when she attacked me. 

Here is the final version of what I sent to her: 
“ Thank you for the shared focus and priority on mom’s recovery and comfort. That means a lot to me and I know it means a lot to her. The trust is up to date and no changes are required at this time.  No important trust decisions have been made or will be made without your input. Email communication works best for me. Mom started speech therapy yesterday and seems to be talking a little more. As long as she remains stable, I will take my planned vacation 2/18-2/25. I will let you know if mom’s condition changes.

Her response: Your tone, choices and statements are disappointing. I believe if you mean what you say about sharing, mom’s best interests, being co-trustees together, working together, loving me as a sister and having mom’s best interests at heart, you would find time and want to communicate with me, beyond text or email. I am asking again- How about we have a meeting on Saturday at noon EST/ 9am Pacific time? If you are in agreement, I will send a Teams invitation.” …Then 5 lovey emoticons!

Ugh….  like there is any implied agreement to schedule a meeting in my message.  I see her do this not just with me, but others, where she says, “ so we are in agreement that ….”  “ or “since we are in agreement, I will … “  just to get her way, when there is no clear agreement and her statements are distortions.  You have to correct her when she does that, which puts the other person automatically on the offensive, and I often see others speechless and at a loss for words when it happens with her.  It feels very manipulative to me. 

I  can think of no other answer than “no,  please do not send an invitation.”  Many of you have pointed out that given all of the things I have on my plate with work and my mom, that engaging at any level with my sister, puts me but also our relationship at risk in the long term. I don’t have the energy to direct there and there is a risk I might say what I really feel right now.  That would get us nowhere!   

[GaGrl]

Perhaps just not reply this time?

[zachira]

I think No Reply would probably work best. When my NPD sister and I were resolving our legal dispute, she sent me so many requests through her lawyer that actually sounded like she cared about me, that really were invitations to engage with her so she could get the upper hand. I ignored everything except what my lawyer needed to do to settle the dispute. This was after a lifetime of my sister periodically being nice to me (always followed by abusive behaviors) which gave me the false hope that we could work things out between us.
Mommydoc,
You want to be nice and true to your values. Yet you really can't say things to your sister that will open the door to giving your sister more accces to you. You are doing a great job in setting boundaries with her. It is so hard when you are a nice caring person who would like to treat your sister differently if she were a decent person. I know you have heard this all before. Setting boundaries like no reply is a work in progress as it is extremely difficult to outthink disordered people all the time in their quest for chaos and dysfunctional relating to others. I told myself that I would not lose my integrity or lower myself to my sister's level. You are working hard to maintain your integrity and doing a good job of it, as trying, stressful, and heartbreaking it is to deal with your sister.

[Couscous]

I recommend that you do a grounding exercise, like the 5,4,3,2,1 exercise, and then wait 24 hours before making a decision on whether or not to respond. You could also do one of Kristin Neff’s fearless self-compassion meditations.

It also wonder if it might be worth having a couple of sessions with a systems trained family counselor (on your own) who may be able to give you some additional guidance on how to best handle this situation.

[Notwendy]

It also wonder if it might be worth having a couple of sessions with a systems trained family counselor (on your own) who may be able to give you some additional guidance on how to best handle this situation.

I actually did this, online, with a counselor before a difficult discussion with my mother. I knew I had to say no to her. There was no other option for me. Her response was confrontational. Since it was a conference Zoom with her care team, they recorded it. You can hear my voice shake. I was able to stick to my decision, in the face of my mother's confrontational and cold stance but I decided I needed to have a professional coach me on how to do it.

What is up with the lovey dovey garbage? If my mother is being overly nice to me, it's a manipulation. Your sister seems insistent on a meeting with you. When my mother wants something, she is persistent in getting it. If being nice doesn't work - then she gets angry and mean. There's no winning this because the playing field isn't even. She can out- mean me because, I can't get that mean to anyone. The best I can do is a firm, no. No explanation, nothing. NO means NO.

I believe if you mean what you say about sharing, mom’s best interests, being co-trustees together, working together, loving me as a sister and having mom’s best interests at heart, you would find time and want to communicate with me, beyond text or email.

Now, this is a manipulative threat. "If you mean what you say, you'd do this". You don't have to do this to mean what you say.  Do not fall for this.

Not responding is one action, but only if you can hold out while she sends multiple emails and texts trying to get you to respond calling you every name in the book and making all kinds of accusations.

What do you think the real motive is in this? I don't think it's to be loving sisters and togetherness. With my mother, there's a hidden agenda behind these persistent requests. I can tell this because, if I answer the apparent concern but not the request then she persists anyway. Emails like these from your sister are the "Camel's nose under the tent" and yet, there's no way to know what the camel actually is.

When there's an underlying emotional need wrapped in a seemingly rational request, no rational reply will do because that isn't really the reason for the request.


What do you think your sister really wants or needs? In the past, it's been a need for money and your mother's money will help meet that need. But how is she really going to say that to you and maintain her sense of pride? She already feels "less than" you, and has less financial resources than you have. To admit she's in need to you would be humiliating and elicit shame for her. To ask about how much she's going to receive as an inheritance also looks bad. So she may be trying to go about this in a roundabout way to avoid these feelings- saying things like "If I am your equal partner, then I need to be kept informed" rather than ask directly.

I assume the trust would cover her travel plans if she needed to do so. She may be worried about how to pay for them.

This doesn't mean you give in to her demands to speak. You stick to your boundary, don't JADE or try to explain. Don't be lovey dovey back. Just say no.

Hi Sis,  I am not able to meet for a discussion at this time. At the moment, there's nothing new to discuss. If there are any major changes in Mom's conditions or the trust documents, I will keep you informed. Love, Me.

No more explanation is required.

Then stand back for the responses to come. I would not reply to then after this one.

[Methuen]

I agree with not replying.  I do it frequently as the need arises.  I "cherry pick" the messages I reply to, to give positive reinforcement to those kinds of messages I wish to encourage.

Your sister is certainly using manipulative techniques - they work for her.

Just go into your cave for cover, and let this be her problem.  There is nothing you can do that will minimize the emotional pain she brings to the relationship.

However, I also agree with this:

Not responding is one action, but only if you can hold out while she sends multiple emails and texts trying to get you to respond calling you every name in the book and making all kinds of accusations.

I've concluded there is no way to find a "reasonable" negotiation for pwBPD.  There simply is no "win-win".  They will always find a way to be a victim if they can't control you.  I concur it's better to disengage. They can't live without conflict, and someone else to blame for their bad feelings.

You were very clear in your email.  There is nothing for her to "not understand".  It was very "family friendly", so there is no ammunition she can bring to her lawyer, despite her accusations of "tone".  She is manufacturing that nonsense with her bad "feelings" which are hers to deal with.  Anyone including her lawyer should be able to see that.  In fact if she were to show that to anyone, I believe she would be making herself look bad.  

I am genuinely happy for you that you have a relationship with your mom that you can always cherish.  Just focus on you and your mom.  Focus on the positives if you can.  I know it's hard because our pwBPD gets inside our heads and creates all kinds of negative unhealthy chatter and clutter up there.  

[Riv3rW0lf]

Seems to me she is preying on a boundary that she thinks she can win on i.e. communicating by emails. My best guess is she wants to meet with you face to face so she can dump her anxiety regarding your mother's current health condition on you. It is just emotional, and needing a punching bag that can take her load on. I found, with my mother, that her dumping sometimes had absolutely nothing to do with me, it was just dumping. Nothing else needs to be analyzed here.. just emotional dumping. But because we were raised as sponges, it is very hard for us to rince those emotions off afterward and we are left bewildered and unbalanced.

It strucked me a bit, in your second answer, how the tone shifted and you were more empathetic to her needs and fear by stating things like "no decision will be taken without you" compared to the first version. It plays as reassurance. Nothing wrong with that ! But I don't think we can all be empathetic and reassuring with pwBPD...

Their response to the empathy of someone seems to depend on how they "feel" the relationship. Like... A significant other could maybe get away with being empathetic and reassuring, but a sister with whom a pwBPD compete might benefit from remaining as neutral as possible...

Just thoughts I've had. I think, for the same pwBPD, someone might be able to get away with showing a bit of empathy, and not someone else...maybe you really can't show any sort of empathy or reassurance with your sister? Have you found she always react this way to you acknowledging her "being good" (thanks for caring...) or fear (not being consulted)?

Alternatively, you could also simply answer : "I am not available. Busy times. I will let you know if mom's condition changes. (Five loving emoticon)"  

[Mommydoc]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Like Methuen said on another thread, your support and insights are so valuable to me right now and keeping me afloat.  I have had a busy day at work and so for now, I am following my regular rule, which is to only answer positive or neutral emails relatively quickly and to wait at least 24 hours to respond to  any negative message from her. She sent me another text this afternoon saying “ irregardless of the meeting, let me know “ where” you are going on vacation”…. when I respond it will be, 

Notwendy asked a really good question, that my husband I have been speculating on. 

What do you think the real motive is in this? I don't think it's to be loving sisters and togetherness. With my mother, there's a hidden agenda behind these persistent requests. I can tell this because, if I answer the apparent concern but not the request then she persists anyway. Emails like these from your sister are the "Camel's nose under the tent" and yet, there's no way to know what the camel actually is.When there's an underlying emotional need wrapped in a seemingly rational request, no rational reply will do because that isn't really the reason for the request. What do you think your sister really wants or needs? In the past, it's been a need for money and your mother's money will help meet that need. But how is she really going to say that to you and maintain her sense of pride? She already feels "less than" you, and has less financial resources than you have. To admit she's in need to you would be humiliating and elicit shame for her. To ask about how much she's going to receive as an inheritance also looks bad. So she may be trying to go about this in a roundabout way to avoid these feelings- saying things like "If I am your equal partner, then I need to be kept informed" rather than ask directly.

I think you nailed it.  My husband was looking at a weeks worth of texts back and forth and noticed there are frequent/ often indirect mentions of money.  And during the last two rants ( the day my mom went to the ER and on Christmas Eve), that was clearly the theme.  “You have frivolously spent all of mom and dad’s hard earned money”.  I think my sister flew in/ said goodbye/ flew out, and expected my mom to die and she would inherit the money.  Then my mom didn’t die.  She was definitely beginning to think about the inheritance.  In her mind, every dollar now spent on mom’s care facility, is a 50 cents less that she will inherit, and the longer my mom lives the smaller the inheritance becomes.  My husband believes the camel’s nose is the money and she can’t say that because there is shame associated with that.   I am pretty sure the “ decisions” she wasn’t included in are the decisions around the facility.  She wants a less expensive facility or for my mom to move into my home with hospice.  I definitely think the money is the issue, which is why my attorney encouraged the gifting to each of us last month. She owns and lives in a nice house, she and her husband both work and her son is in a private college.  I don’t think she has serious financial issues… this is more about jealousy and wanting more.  Understanding her motives honestly doesn’t make it easier  for me to deal with her behavior.

I think at some level, she is realizing that when mom dies, she may lose her contact and relationship with me, and in her perverse way, this is how she “hangs on” to her relationship with me. 

I am intrigued with your comments about empathy Riv3rWOlf .   One of the things my attorney suggested in dealing with her, is trying to focus her on the future, and to keep re-iterating that I want to work collaboratively “going forward” with her.  I  threw that entire sentence in “ just in case” she decided she wanted to show it to her attorney to demonstrate my line in the sand that there have been NO trust decisions made without her, and that I will work with her with trust decisions going through forward.  My general tone is usually very friendly and loving, so that sentence didn’t feel empathetic ( to me) and sounded more defensive on my part. I think anything that isn’t the outcome she wanted (in this case the mtg) feels “hostile” to her, so I wasn’t surprised when I didn't agree to the meeting, that she would not be happy.  But making her happy is no longer my goal. 

I also think the reason she keeps speaking so vaguely, is she still wants to move my mother out of her assisted living now that we don’t know how much time my mom has. 95% of my moms costs are her care facility so it also comes back to the money. She has said a few times “ I am not trying to move mom” when I never mentioned it, so of course, I think that is what she wants.  She has been making complaints about the facility  to the hospice case manager, mostly because they don’t answer her calls quickly or call her back. It’s always about her needs and if they are met, and never about my mom, which is frankly infuriating to me. 

My mom and dad chose this place 7 years ago, my mom well before her cognitive decline chose to stay there and could have been a commercial with all the positive things she said. Beyond that they have done an extraordinary job caring for her. The idea of taking my mother out of the place she has lived for 7 years and has been very happy at, at the end of her life, is reprehensible.

[Couscous]

“The Problem is never the problem! It is only a symptom of something much deeper.”

― Virginia Satir

[Riv3rW0lf]

It is absolutely possible my whole reading of the thing is wrong as well !  

I got the sense there was a shift in "power", like an opening in kindness and that she jumped on it... Not sure why !  But she likely would have jumped on anything truly, there is never any good answer with them !

The important thing is that : your answer matches your values, and that you feel good about it.

It was a nice, clear, concise answer, respectful and with clear boundaries in the end.

Her reactions is hers.

[Notwendy]

I agree that moving your mother to a new place would not be in her best interest. She chose this place, they have taken good care of her and she's happy. Also, while your sister may be "co trustee"- this is not her money do decide on. The money currently in the trust is for your mother's care.

The idea of moving to your home would not be inexpensive either. You would have to be at work and hire caregivers- people your mother may not be familiar with. This isn't what is best for your mother and it may not be the "savings" your sister imagines.

For whatever reasons your sister has, she's thinking of her wants, not your mother's and not yours. And she's wrapping her message up in a nice "sisterly love" bow.

So no, hold your boundary as it's what is best for your mother right now, and that is what the trust is for.

[Mommydoc]

So much wisdom here, to anchor to. Thank you. 

“The Problem is never the problem! It is only a symptom of something much deeper.”
― Virginia Satir

That is really helpful.  Even though it has been hard holding and now reinforcing my boundaries, I feel so much stronger and empowered over the course of this week.  It is almost like I have been able to step away and view my sister from afar, like a character in a novel. By maintaining my boundary, with all of your help, I am able to see my sister in a different light.  Like this complex character in a novel who you understand why they are the way they are, and even though you don’t endorse their behavior, you understand them, empathize with them, even like them in a weird way…..but you also see the havoc they wreak on others and want those around them to stand up to them and to protect themselves.  Hearing others stories and challenges and getting the validation is so helpful.  It makes it easier to depersonalize it for me. 

The important thing is that : your answer matches your values, and that you feel good about it. It was a nice, clear, concise answer, respectful and with clear boundaries in the end.
Her reactions is hers.

Thank you for the validation Riv3rWOlf.  Her reaction is hers and I will survive it. 

For whatever reasons your sister has, she's thinking of her wants, not your mother's and not yours. And she's wrapping her message up in a nice "sisterly love" bow.

Yes, Notwendy, my mom’s needs and comfort are the clear focus and priority.  And it is also OK to focus on my needs too.  It has and always be about her needs and mine have never been important to her. It will never be an reciprocal relationship.

Thank you all for your kindness and your insights.  I am feeling really good about it all. 

[Methuen]

Her reaction is hers and I will survive it. 

This might have to become my new mantra.

It is good to hear things have currently settled .

[Mommydoc]

I need validation and practical advice.  My sister asked me 5 times over last 3 weeks to set up a Co-trustee meeting. 5 times, I maintained my boundaries, by not responding, asking for specific issues ( got none), and then stating there are no issues to discuss, and not agreeing to meet.   I told her my focus is my mom’s well being.  I continued to provide updates on mom by text.

Because my mom is now stable, my sister wants to “return to discussing the trust”. Because my mom is stable, I want to (and have) returned to LC.  There were really no pertinent updates needed.  We went 8 glorious days with no contact!   Yesterday she texted me asking how mom was doing.  I responded today with a very neutral, (focused on mom) response.  

I guess it is humorously predictable.  Her response…..”Thank you for the update. I haven’t heard back from you regarding a plan for us to have a meeting as co-trustees. I suggest a meeting ASAP, in person, by phone or virtual. ” She  could care less about anything about mom…. Not a single question about mom.  

Me, no response.  It’s the only tool in the toolbox right now.  I feel like I need to “tap out”.

I took a class last week on appreciative inquiry.   It’s interesting and pertinent to our situation.   We always have a choice of where we put our energy and attention; when you put your energy in a positive direction, positive things happen.  Ironically my “ retirement countdown app” just popped a quote up “ To establish true self esteem, we must concentrate on our successes and forget about the failures and negatives in our lives”.  

I am trying to quell the need to even respond to that text….. I want low/no contact back so I can focus on myself and the good in my life.   I feel like any response will just increase our text frequency.  

[GaGrl]

It's almost as if the requests are an itch you feel you need to scratch, isn't it?

You don't need to respond. You would be doing nothing except giving her the same info you have given her five times before.

One thought...can you direct her to the Trust attorney? Let him/her tell her the same thing five times.

[Mommydoc]

Thanks GaGrl. Yes it is uncomfortable not to respond.  It’s not my nature to deliberately ignore anyone.  The itch you want to scratch is an appropriate analogy…irritating, uncomfortable and distracting.  But tolerable. 

Re trust attorney.  Our original trust attorney, has tapped out herself.  She is the one who recommended I get an attorney to represent myself personally, she also made it clear to my sister she can’t represent her,  and recommended she get her own attorney.  ( to which my sister says “ what conflict? What did you tell her?“ ).  So when my mother dies, it might be possible ( but highly unlikely) to engage the trust attorney to execute the trust, if my sister was more reasonable in her approach, but she has no interest in being a mediator or engaging with my sister at all. She actually refused to meet with my sister when she flew out last summer specifically with that purpose.   

So right now my sister and I each have separate attorneys, but given there is nothing to do on the trust, they are essentially just on retainer and not doing anything active.  I would love to say “have your attorney contact my attorney” ( sounds kind of Hollywood to me, ) but my husband feels that would trigger an expensive non productive circular conversation that will require more energy on my part.  I am trying to avoid feeding the fire so I have refrained.  My lawyer predicts that she will end up firing her lawyer once there is any legal engagement, as it is likely her lawyer will be “ sensible” and that will trigger her. 

In the past, talking to my sister created anxiety for me.  Now, I view it as a necessary but unpleasant task, that I should minimize and only do when absolutely necessary.   And it is definitely not necessary right now.   

[Notwendy]

My mother can do the same thing- be relentless with requests, and as she does, my response is to feel more anxious. The impulse to reply and get it over with is due to my own anxiety. This works for my mother- she knows if she keeps on pushing, she will get what she wants. There is no reason for her to not do it.

The "giving in" to just stop the anxiety that comes with not respecting a boundary is co-dependent driven- we do it to manage our own feelings. This is a well rehearsed path for both of you. You likely have been doing it for years.

Eventually, my father, who had been experiencing this for a long time would just immediately give in, even if it made no sense. I think the request is based on an emotional need dressed up as a material or other reasonable one, which is why when you come back with a reply directed at the request, it persists, because the form of the request is not the entire need and it may not make sense as the need is emotional.

My BPD mother does this in many ways. She recently brought up some things that belonged to my father- but she won't let go of them, because bringing up my father is a way to "push my buttons". So she was discussing that again and said she was going to give them to someone to dispose of them. I made a suggestion for another option but none would do, she kept repeating what she was going to do. Then I caught on, the reason for her saying this was not that she really wanted to do it. She wanted me to hear it (as it's an emotional topic for me) to get an emotional reaction and when I replied with another option that made more sense, she rejected it and repeated it. Then she went on to something else she owned of value.

She's done this so many times and it's not logical. I also was out with my father, BPD mother wanted an expensive computer that would be difficult for her to use but she heard about it and wanted it. I suggested a user friendly one that was on sale that was more than adequate to meet her needs which is mainly online ordering and emails. She wasn't going to use the other features. Dad got very agitated and said no, we have to buy the one he wants, because no other one would do. There was an emotional need for him to fill her exact request, even if it didn't make sense, and he wanted to not get into it with her by not doing it.

So back to your sister. She wants something and it isn't just the meeting. Brainstorm what emotional need is driving it. One is money, we know that. The other is, by not responding, you are changing the pattern between the two of you. This is different and that makes it uncomfortable for both of you. Also keep in mind, if you give in now, it's intermittent reinforcement, which is the most powerful way to reinforce behaviors.

I also wonder if she has some anxiety that if your roles at co-trustees are not needed at some point, you will stop contact with her. Your not responding may be connected to that fear. For my mother, drama is the familiar way to interact, so less drama changes that. I think this is one reason she keeps bringing up emotional topics. If I react emotionally, even if it's an unpleasant one, we are still connected.

Using the addiction model and co-dependent/caretaking/enabling as a form of "escaping uncomfortable emotions" which all addictions are a form of, your rising discomfort with her repeated requests might be seen in the same way an alcoholic feels when someone is offering them a drink and they need to refrain.

The other analogy is that she's inviting you to the crazy party but you don't have to attend.

Whichever one works for you, I hope this helps

[GaGrl]

Is there a recent Trust statement that your attorney can send along with another " no action needed at this time" message? Just so your sister hears it again from someone other than you?

On another note, do you expect your pre- retirement activities to intensify as the retirement date grows closer? My next-door neighbor retired several years ago as the COO of our university hospital, and she had a one-year transition period -- I remember her last three months as quite busy!

[Mommydoc]

Yes, GaGrl the transition activities are a lot and not without their own set of drama, but for me, it’s all very exciting.  I am beginning to spend a lot more time thinking about, planing and moving towards my next chapter after retirement.   Thanks for asking. 

My attorney has me working with a bookkeeper to produce a “full financial accounting” that meets our state probate requirements.  Even though we have done what we need to do to avoid probate, she feels it is necessary given my sisters constant accusations.  I am hoping it will be complete soon and my lawyer can send it to her lawyer.  It will address the other expenses in an objective way. 

She sent another text yesterday, “ It’s important that we meet to discuss mom’s prognosis, her needs now and in the future, expenses, your travel plans, me visiting mom during that time, etc. Could we meet on Teams this Saturday at 4 pm Pacific time, via Teams. I am traveling  tomorrow morning. It is important to me that you confirm this time, as I will need to cancel dinner plans that night. If this doesn’t work for you, please let me know a time next week that works. I am traveling on Sunday.”

My response “ I am not available Saturday, as I have birthday celebration plans”.   She responded, I am available next week.  LOL

She wants something and it isn't just the meeting. Brainstorm what emotional need is driving it. One is money, we know that. The other is, by not responding, you are changing the pattern between the two of you. This is different and that makes it uncomfortable for both of you. Also keep in mind, if you give in now, it's intermittent reinforcement, which is the most powerful way to reinforce behaviors.

I also wonder if she has some anxiety that if your roles at co-trustees are not needed at some point, you will stop contact with her. Your not responding may be connected to that fear. For my mother, drama is the familiar way to interact, so less drama changes that. I think this is one reason she keeps bringing up emotional topics. If I react emotionally, even if it's an unpleasant one, we are still connected.

Using the addiction model and co-dependent/caretaking/enabling as a form of "escaping uncomfortable emotions" which all addictions are a form of, your rising discomfort with her repeated requests might be seen in the same way an alcoholic feels when someone is offering them a drink and they need to refrain.

The other analogy is that she's inviting you to the crazy party but you don't have to attend.

NotWendy, you have nailed it. As my husband says, “ same old” crazy party.   I believe when my mom was on deaths door, she was appropriately grieving and focused there, but when she didn't die, and I pulled away back to our prior low contact, it threw her off.  She was counting her inheritance, she gifted herself and her son, and even cashed his check.  Now the money is flowing “ away” from her and going towards mom’s expenses, and it is not clear when my mother will pass.   So it is back to she has “no control” to slow the spend and costs, ie “preserve” the inheritance.   And yes, she wants to be connected to me at whatever cost…. That is a for sure. 

I talked to hospice and they are going to suggest a family meeting to “re-review” mom’s prognosis, needs, etc, and I will check in on the accounting and move that through my lawyer, as you suggested GaGrl.  It is so repetitive now, I expect it.  But still not easy.  Thanks for this support.

[Notwendy]

I think that she was cashing checks is revealing. This makes me think there are pressing financial issues driving this- not just wanting money- due to her doing this so quickly. She may also be concerned about your mother, but has some kind of worry- which is also possibly behind her persistence to meet with you. She can't say she needs to know about the money situation- that would sound cold, so she's asking about your mother's situation.

You are answering "nothing has changed with mother" but for your sister, the money has changed. At one point she sees it's available to her and then, it's not. It's possible they made a promise to repay a bill, or thought they could do that and now that has changed.

This could happen with any amount of money. My BPD mother has what would be a comfortable income for many people but how she spends money is also emotionally driven- and leads her to make poor choices with it. There is an emotional component to money and BPD affects emotional regulation. You may have a general idea of your sister's income level and it may not coincide with her behavior- but there's no way of knowing what financial issues she has. One example is when we found out my mother took out a home equity loan and we had no idea she did this. There is no way to know what your sister, or her husband have done with their money.

This isn't your concern. You should not feel you have to "rescue" your sister from any financial decisions she or her husband made. Your mother's money is her money and is being used for her care.

I like the idea of your mother's care team calling a family meeting. This takes the response to your sister's requests away from you, and you aren't reinforcing them. It also becomes a meeting with them and not just with you.

[Mommydoc]

Thanks NW.   Somehow, the boundary is getting easier to reinforce. 

I appreciate your asking me to delve deeper into what is driving my sister.   It is hard for me to understand her, and I have stop trying, as doing so feels like I am overly focusing on her and under focusing on me and my mom.  Overall, it likely two things:  1) the money,  specifically her sense that she doesn’t have control over the money and seeing it “slip away”, and 2) a sense of impending loss of both my mom and me….

I think we are both grieving my mother already, since she is a fragment of her former self.   I know from our past we can’t do it together.   I need my space and to protect myself from her toxicity. 

This isn't your concern. You should not feel you have to "rescue" your sister from any financial decisions she or her husband made. Your mother's money is her money and is being used for her care.

I agree completely.  It helps that my father was very clear with me before he died, and my mother has also been very clear about her wishes prior to this.  The money is not mine or my sisters and the trust was set up to assure that their wishes were followed.  That makes it easy.  If you recall last summer, my sister flew in suddenly, when she knew I was out of town, and the Trust Financial Advisor called to let me know.  In that moment, I considered the possibility that she might drain the account or kidnap my mother from her AL.  He was very clear that technically she could do that and he could not prevent it.

Neither happened, but it was in that moment, I realized I have no control over her, and only over myself.  Both things would have been grounds for elder abuse and removal as trustee, and I knew what I would need to do if she attempted or carried out either.  Fortunately, she did not, but there was peace in my recognizing what the worst case scenario was and that I couldn’t prevent her from harmful actions.  Though I am very protective of my mom, I was also very confident that my sister couldn’t effectively carry off a kidnapping and had confidence in the AL protecting my mom and her well being. And that I could /would deal with what ever happened. 

She is back to sending lovey emoticons, which don’t work for me.  I am spacing out my text responses and keeping them very brief and neutral. We are definitely back to LC which is appropriate for the circumstances.   I talked with Hospice about the meeting and they have agreed, but I am waiting to suggest it as there is absolutely no urgency in this moment. 

Thanks all for the ongoing support.  It helps!

[Couscous]

I’ve been watching Jordan Peterson this weekend and immediately thought of this thread when I watched this one titled “A Psychotherapeutic Technique That Can Address All Your Disagreements”: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G1JWRFIzppA

However, the rule presumes to some degree that you are dealing with a good-faith actor, which may or may not be the case for your sister.

[Methuen]

What jumps out at me from your last post Mommydoc, and a very common thread that I see in all of our situations (regardless of whether it is sibling, in-law or parent), is the very fundamental lack of trust we all feel for our pwBPD.  And a certain acceptance for what we can't control.  

Trust needs to be at the heart of any relationship whether it is with a loved one, a spiritual leader, a doctor/lawyer/teacher/social worker/therapist, or friend and so on.  When trust has been eroded, there is only dust.  IMHO, we all share the trauma of this kind of dust on this board.

If you recall last summer, my sister flew in suddenly, when she knew I was out of town, and the Trust Financial Advisor called to let me know.  In that moment, I considered the possibility that she might drain the account or kidnap my mother from her AL.  He was very clear that technically she could do that and he could not prevent it.

And there it is.  You know your sister.  You know her behaviors.  There is history that led to you to those thoughts, which demonstrate such a fundamental lack of trust.

BPD is just so remarkable.  I can see what could motivate someone to be a psychiatrist.  Human behavior is so curious and so damned interesting in the purely clinical sense, and for a person who wants to help others, well psychiatry could be a fit.  But with it comes all the darkness and trauma and the ripple effect into families, and the destruction of relationships and just so much pain and utter utter dysfunction that continues through generations.

At the end of the day, we can't prevent all these things from going wrong.  I have spent my life trying to prevent the unpreventable, both in my personal life, and to a degree in my career by practicing the adage "an ounce of pevention is worth a pound of cure".  But when we are talking about a relationship with a pwBPD, that adage just doesn't apply.  There was nothingyou could do to prevent either your sister actually draining the trust or kidnaping your mom, had she chosen to do so.

it was in that moment, I realized I have no control over her, and only over myself.  Both things would have been grounds for elder abuse and removal as trustee, and I knew what I would need to do if she attempted or carried out either.  Fortunately, she did not, but there was peace in my recognizing what the worst case scenario was and that I couldn’t prevent her from harmful actions.

This really resonates with me.  Ultimately, all we can ever do is respond to whatever they throw at us in the moment, in the most rational and caring way possible to keep us on the high road.  We can't prevent the bad things that are predictable from happening.

And there is a certain level of helplessness that comes with this.  The constant circus probably also trains us to predict worse case scenarios that may or may not happen.  But somehow, we are stuck with navigating our ways through recurring dust storms that obscure so much.

Just an observation.