Crossing the Line - Exiting the Theme Park Entirely

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

That makes you a good person, not a loser.

A loser would have cussed her out, cheated on her, lived off her for support, degraded her constantly, etc.  That's what a loser does.  You loved her and stood beside her, even when she went flippin' nuts on you and walked away.

Again, that's not a loser.  It's a guy in love with a broken heart.

I have cussed her out...DEFINITLEY didnt cheat on her, She THINKS i lived of her for support, and all I ever did (except in weak moments when i was verbally beaten) was support her, even in times of hardship for her.

And she went flippin nuts on me Twice (techincally 3) and abrubtly ejected me and my son. She didnt walk anywhere. She stayed in the house I FOUND with the DOGS WE GOT TOGETHER.
She lost nothing. Walked away from nothing.

I got banished.

[OKrunch]

That makes you a good person, not a loser.

A loser would have cussed her out, cheated on her, lived off her for support, degraded her constantly, etc.  That's what a loser does.  You loved her and stood beside her, even when she went flippin' nuts on you and walked away.

Again, that's not a loser.  It's a guy in love with a broken heart.

I have cussed her out...DEFINITLEY didnt cheat on her, She THINKS i lived of her for support, and all I ever did (except in weak moments when i was verbally beaten) was support her, even in times of hardship for her.

And she went flippin nuts on me Twice (techincally 3) and abrubtly ejected me and my son. She didnt walk anywhere. She stayed in the house I FOUND with the DOGS WE GOT TOGETHER.
She lost nothing. Walked away from nothing.

I got banished.

[OKrunch]

I feel like a loser because after all that, if she reached out right now and asked me to come over, I highly doubt id have the strength to say no.

And i just keep hoping the rebound fails, for that exact reason

[OKrunch]

One odd thing to note...last time i reached out (over a week ago now) was via email.

I have a Email tracker Gmail extention that tells me when and how often my emails are opened (i have had this on my email for ages)

She has opened and re-read that email a few times, and it was short. No real reason to re-read it.
Just odd that she has read it 4 times. Its only 2 sentences long.

[OKrunch]

My therapist said that I am probably right about her being done for good.
She said that because I told her I was seeing someone a few weeks back, that that will be the one thing she wont be able to get over (despite the fact that shes dated 2-3 guys since October and is openly dating one?)

Nothing makes sense

[SinisterComplex]

So you are not a loser. You are grieving still and in pain. You are running on emotion...you are human. Happens to everyone. I am going to give you some tough love for a moment though...no more BS about you being a loser. Is that understood? Head up. Enough beating yourself down. You are putting all this pressure on yourself for no damn good reason. Stop it. You have no one's expectations to fulfill but your own. Is that clear? You have nothing to prove and you have no one you need to seek approval from here. This is your own battle, your own struggle. Only you determine when enough is enough. You are in control. Keep in mind you have a son to worry about right? Start placing more focus there.

You have to shift your focus somehow and throw yourself into it. What better option than creating a better relationship with your own flesh and blood you helped create? Think of some new ideas. Be super dad. Seriously.

Yes, you can keep venting, but my man you have to do YOU. I am here to support you and have your back regardless. You are not perfect and you are probably still going to screw up...guess what? That is to be expected and that is okay. It is a process and no one is perfect. Just try to learn little bit by little bit so when you do inevitably mess up you take the time to go...wait a minute...I did make progress. Even if it seems minor...it has to start somewhere.

A lot of this will sound rehashed, but until you are ready to leave the circus we will be here helping you along the way. All I will ask of you is for you to take some time to read through everything you write and say it out loud to yourself and see how you feel about it and what you think about it.

Please be kind to you and take care of yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[cranmango]

OKrunch—Agree with what others have said. Just want to add that my timeline is similar to yours. Like you, I have continued to be supportive and kind to my ex, while she is off with her new partner. Like you, I have struggled with periods of NC and occasional recontact. Like you, I still struggle with rumination.

You know what has really helped? Reading the stories posted here, including yours. Knowing I’m not alone. Knowing that we struggle with similar things.

So thank you for sharing your story these last few months.

[OKrunch]

OKrunch—Agree with what others have said. Just want to add that my timeline is similar to yours. Like you, I have continued to be supportive and kind to my ex, while she is off with her new partner. Like you, I have struggled with periods of NC and occasional recontact. Like you, I still struggle with rumination.

You know what has really helped? Reading the stories posted here, including yours. Knowing I’m not alone. Knowing that we struggle with similar things.

So thank you for sharing your story these last few months.

It's hard because we talked throughout her last rebound. I always felt like "he wasnt a threat to me" and I ended up being right. It was rotten of her to do that to him though, so it makes me think, how much did she do that to me during our 2 runs at a relationship?
But at the same time I feel the same "hes not a threat" with this new guy sometimes too, (when im not assuming he will fix everything and live the unicorn fantasy dream of her being stable, which we all know is not true).
It makes me hope she reaches out and talks to me soon, but part of me knows thats a dead end, but damn do i still want it to happen.

I still feel like she and I are "soulmates" and the disorder is that challenge between us that we both need to overcome.
It was there to teach me proper attachment and anger management, and she will take the self awareness she already has and cultivate it into stability via therapy, meds and mindfullness.

I just cant find a place of balance between acceptance that the good things were real, at the time, and that they are to be enjoyed as good memories, while still completley detaching and moving on with healthy relationship habits, and a more stable partner.

My brian plays re-runs of our road trips, vacations, hoildays, and family moments in my head on reapeat all day. It is maddening.

[tina7868]

I still feel like she and I are "soulmates" and the disorder is that challenge between us that we both need to overcome.
It was there to teach me proper attachment and anger management, and she will take the self awareness she already has and cultivate it into stability via therapy, meds and mindfullness.

I just cant find a place of balance between acceptance that the good things were real, at the time, and that they are to be enjoyed as good memories, while still completley detaching and moving on with healthy relationship habits, and a more stable partner.

Give yourself time to get to a place of balance. Your feelings are still fresh. Even then, everyone has their own timeline. Whatever you feel is valid, and that includes seemingly contradicting perspectives.

[OKrunch]

Spidey Sense on high alert today...

[BigEasyHeart]

I still feel like she and I are "soulmates" and the disorder is that challenge between us that we both need to overcome.
It was there to teach me proper attachment and anger management, and she will take the self awareness she already has and cultivate it into stability via therapy, meds and mindfullness.

I just cant find a place of balance between acceptance that the good things were real, at the time, and that they are to be enjoyed as good memories, while still completley detaching and moving on with healthy relationship habits, and a more stable partner.

My brian plays re-runs of our road trips, vacations, hoildays, and family moments in my head on reapeat all day. It is maddening.

Don't be too hard on yourself. What you are experiencing is totally normal, especially with a loss like this. If you thought of yourself as soulmates / lifelong partners (as I did with my ex), it's going to take time for your brain to rewire. Treat yourself well, be patient with yourself, and accept where you are rather than adding the extra burden of feeling bad because you are not where you think you should be.

I find this article useful when thinking about this process: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/laugh-cry-live/202303/as-you-grieve-your-brain-redraws-its-neural-map

Here is a quote that I found particularly helpful:

"For many months, even though you know your relationship has changed, your brain’s neural map may lag behind. Your brain favors the implicit knowledge that the partner or loved one is everlasting and won’t update the map just because they haven't been around for a day, or even several months. It requires ample time and a ton of lived experience to absorb the absence, update the predictions, and complete this enormous redraw. In the meantime, the still-outdated areas of your neural map make you think, feel, and act as if your loved one is here, now, and close. Your grief is triggered every time an outdated prediction fails. You ruminate endlessly on what happened and what will become of you. You feel distracted and exhausted.

This monumental rewiring job explains a lot of what you’re experiencing as you mourn. You’re not crazy; your brain is rewiring itself, and you need time to feel whole again, reinvent your life, and plan a different future without your beloved. Knowing this can grant you more patience and self-compassion."

[OKrunch]

the main hurdle is that I know I don't fully want seperation, no contact, or to detach.
Part of me does, for self preservation, but I know in my heart I am not ready to give up on her, and that feels right and wrong at the same time.

[tina7868]

What an insightful article, thank you for sharing. Here are a few other quotes that I found of interest:

Of course, we consciously understand that death and unforeseen events can tear us apart, but as far as the non-conscious brain is concerned, whenever we are separated—for a minute, a few hours, a week, or more—it “knows” we will be reunited. Without this implicit knowledge, life would be unbearable, as we’d be thrown into panic, grief, and seeking every time we were apart. Instead, with this implicit knowledge that our loved one is “everlasting,” we rest assured.

In trying to make sense of the absence, your brain struggles to reconcile two opposing pieces of knowledge—the conscious knowledge that they are gone, and the powerful, implicit knowledge that they are everlasting. This struggle explains some of the more bewildering and crazy-making aspects of grieving.

Each time you confront these two opposing pieces of knowledge, it triggers painful grief and you yearn deeply.

If your partner abandoned you, maintaining a connection is more fraught but still a normal part of the grieving process. As your brain laboriously redraws the neural map of this relationship and you ease into reinventing your life, you’ll gradually and naturally ease away from resisting the reality of their departure and wishing for their return.

Feeling like you aren't ready to let go is part of the process. Give yourself time.

[jaded7]

What an insightful article, thank you for sharing. Here are a few other quotes that I found of interest:

Feeling like you aren't ready to let go is part of the process. Give yourself time.

Thank you for excerpting these. They are really helpful, and they are making it easier for me to understand why my brain is SO messed up. I am simultaneously holding on to her because I believe we are everlasting, while reckoning with the realization that she has stepped away from and out of my life.

These things do not, cannot, match up. It causes me to question what love is, what it means.

And thus the resisting, which for me (maybe many of us) means the constant viewing of videos on BPD/Covert Narcissism, toxic relationships, verbal abuse, ghosting...all in an attempt to convince myself it's GOOD she's gone. If it's good she's gone, then I won't have to suffer the way I am now.

[OKrunch]

Today is therapy day for her Daughter. I really want to send a simple "Youve got this, youll both do great" message.

Here I am, only thinking of supporting them, and im sure If I did it would be ignored, or i'd be yelled at.

[Rev]

Today is therapy day for her Daughter. I really want to send a simple "Youve got this, youll both do great" message.

Here I am, only thinking of supporting them, and im sure If I did it would be ignored, or i'd be yelled at.

Glad you reached out here.  I'd say that your intuition is correct.

[OKrunch]

Glad you reached out here.  I'd say that your intuition is correct.

Me too, i didnt send it.

I apologize if i post too much. My job is horridly slow, and it affords me much time to think, and type.

I feel motivated to do "what works", I do care a great deal about her feelings, which i know are tumultuous and all over the place, and that must be an exhausting and maddening way to live.

I have read seperate schools of thought regarding what does and doesn't cause triggers. 

While Painted black, if I DONT peridoically touch base, will that trigger abandonment fears?
If I do reach out periodically, will it cause fear of engulfment or anger her because I am not "Giving her what she needs" (Space)
This confusion is what makes me want to reach out, or feel anxious as hell If I do.


When "happily in a relationship", and I see a trigger occuring, or an anxiety attack, and i generally want to help calm and soothe it, do i give space, or support?
Again, space could cause abandonment or be viewed as "not caring" and  the support could cause engulfment, or be viewed as "being too involved".
I Guess the best thing to to there would be literally ask, do you need space or support?
(this is genralizing for any relationship with a sensitive person, as i want to have the skills to succseed in any future relationship)

[tina7868]

I apologize if i post too much. My job is horridly slow, and it affords me much time to think, and type.

No need to apologize. We can relate to how you are feeling, and we are here to support you.

I have read seperate schools of thought regarding what does and doesn't cause triggers.

While Painted black, if I DONT peridoically touch base, will that trigger abandonment fears?
If I do reach out periodically, will it cause fear of engulfment or anger her because I am not "Giving her what she needs" (Space)
This confusion is what makes me want to reach out, or feel anxious as hell If I do.

Many of us on this forum have asked ourselves a version of this. You get to a point where you accept that your ex is gone, but you're not ready to give up. So you ask yourself, what is the best way to set yourself up? Should you reach out? Should you leave them alone? I am going to share an answer written by SinisterComplex (I hope they don't mind!) to a similar question on another board that I saved for myself, and think might be helpful when it comes to your questions.

You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. It is pretty much the status quo. All you can do is focus on you and improve you. Additionally, try to be more comfortable with being indifferent and not emotionally reactionary. Showing too much emotion will actually make things worse for you. Keep in mind with the disorder there is a ticking clock for a quota of emotion that can be endured before he or she is triggered. - The best way to deal with this is to practice being firm and indifferent as in do not react emotionally, but also show you are firm in your stance on any given issue.

Also, there is nothing you can do other than let her come to you. That's it. You have no control over that. Accept that and go about your business and focus on you. When she comes back...notice I say when...then be prepared and stay in the frame of mind of firm and indifferent if it is the relationship you want and want to stick with for the long haul.

[OKrunch]

Thank you Tina, that quote was so on point I needed to read that.


She keeps re-reading that email...?

[Rev]

Me too, i didnt send it.

I apologize if i post too much. My job is horridly slow, and it affords me much time to think, and type.

I feel motivated to do "what works", I do care a great deal about her feelings, which i know are tumultuous and all over the place, and that must be an exhausting and maddening way to live.

I have read seperate schools of thought regarding what does and doesn't cause triggers. 

While Painted black, if I DONT peridoically touch base, will that trigger abandonment fears?
If I do reach out periodically, will it cause fear of engulfment or anger her because I am not "Giving her what she needs" (Space)
This confusion is what makes me want to reach out, or feel anxious as hell If I do.


When "happily in a relationship", and I see a trigger occuring, or an anxiety attack, and i generally want to help calm and soothe it, do i give space, or support?
Again, space could cause abandonment or be viewed as "not caring" and  the support could cause engulfment, or be viewed as "being too involved".
I Guess the best thing to to there would be literally ask, do you need space or support?
(this is genralizing for any relationship with a sensitive person, as i want to have the skills to succseed in any future relationship)

Crunch... I won't tell you not to apologize. "Cause I hear you almost saying that you wish you didn't feel the need to and you could be done with all of this.

What I will say is this - it is an honor to be part of  your journey. One day, you will pay this forward, just like there are others who are right where you are who are thankful that you are working through your stuff.

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[once removed]

I have read seperate schools of thought regarding what does and doesn't cause triggers.  

While Painted black, if I DONT peridoically touch base, will that trigger abandonment fears?
If I do reach out periodically, will it cause fear of engulfment or anger her because I am not "Giving her what she needs" (Space)
This confusion is what makes me want to reach out, or feel anxious as hell If I do.

i had a similar question when i arrived here.

i think that there is an easier way to think of abandonment fears.

think of the fear of flying. it exists on a spectrum. i have a little bit of it; i prefer not to fly, but its not a major issue, never has been, if i need to fly.

someone on the more extreme end of the spectrum would organize their life in such a way as to avoid ever flying, or ever needing to fly. they would never take a job where they had to travel. if they ever were in a situation where they had no choice, they might need to be sedated.

everyone has a fear of abandonment. we are all somewhere on the spectrum. people with bpd traits are generally on the more extreme end of it.

they build their lives in a way to avoid it.

that fear is something more akin to a lifestyle than something that we can simply trigger, or affect. for example, when some get the idea of going "no contact" in order to try to get someone back (?), it is a messy approach. it isnt really the way that the fear of abandonment works.

the fear of engulfment is more complex than first glance would suggest.

being overly clingy or dependent on someone will make them feel smothered and generally turn them off, yes; thats generally true for everyone. the bpd fear of engulfment is on the more extreme end of the spectrum.

we all put our best foot forward, show the best side of ourselves, in order to attract a mate. people with bpd traits take it to a pathological level, in part because of a fear of rejection, in part because of a weak or unstable sense of self, in part because they feel very intensely when they fall for someone.

the problem is that when you begin a relationship that way, it can get pretty hard to keep up being someone youre not. you may feel self loathing. and, rather than feel that self loathing, you may, ultimately, come to resent your partner because you perceive that they put all this on you, expect it of you, and that your partner doesnt really love you for who you are. that is what the fear of engulfment is really all about. it is one of the things that really flies the lowest on the radar to us; who would know that this is going on under the surface? my own ex did everything she could to be the person she believed i wanted her to be, and she grew to resent me for it. its obvious in hindsight. at the time i had no idea.

how does all of this apply to you?

whether you want her back, or whether you want to move on, the approach in your situation is, by and large, the same.

if she is in a new relationship, its something you really want to give a wide berth. it has to play out. if, for example, you tried to sabotage it, or you were a major presence, and she came back to you, it would crash and burn quickly. alternatively, your presence (especially if the two of you are fighting), it could push her deeper into it.

so, rather than "should i contact her, should i not contact her", i would be thinking in terms of giving this thing a wide berth, trying, to the extent i can, to emotionally move on, rebuild my life, and be that most attractive version of myself, whether she ends up back in it or not.

right now, her attention is going to be on this relationship; thats just the way it is, and needs to be. i dont think that necessarily means she wont be in touch at all. i suspect she might be. but, i would let her lead on that completely, and leave all of that up to her.

[jaded7]

While Painted black, if I DONT peridoically touch base, will that trigger abandonment fears?
If I do reach out periodically, will it cause fear of engulfment or anger her because I am not "Giving her what she needs" (Space)
This confusion is what makes me want to reach out, or feel anxious as hell If I do.


When "happily in a relationship", and I see a trigger occuring, or an anxiety attack, and i generally want to help calm and soothe it, do i give space, or support?
Again, space could cause abandonment or be viewed as "not caring" and  the support could cause engulfment, or be viewed as "being too involved".
I Guess the best thing to to there would be literally ask, do you need space or support?
(this is genralizing for any relationship with a sensitive person, as i want to have the skills to succseed in any future relationship)

This was a constant problem for me, whether to reach out or not when she was ghosting and going silent.

Is she mad at me? Did I do something wrong? Thinking, thinking. Is she ok? Does she need help?

Reach out to ask if there's a reason she's not communicating...thinking it's a normal question/boundary in a relationship (had suddenly gone silent, breadcrumb "busy" text in the morning, not responding to calls or texts for 2 day)----->EXPLOSION.  Immediate call within 4 seconds (wait, thought you were 'busy'), no hello just "you need mental health help! It feels controlling! I gave you an itinerary for the weekend!" (nope...she did not...sent a text Saturday morning saying that she and her son were going to the market early since he had a lot of homework. Fine, have a good time, talk to you later I said)

Or...send her a text on another occasion, she ignores it, ignores an email a day or two later...so I quit trying and she texts a few days later to meet and says "what's going on, I haven't heard from you".

I say what do you mean you haven't heard from me? I remind her that I texted her and emailed her and she never responded to either, she replies angrily "your text had an exclamation point in it"...? As if that's an answer, as if that has anything to say about the absurdity of her telling me she hasn't heard from me. Texts with exclamation points somewhere in them don't count as 'hearing from me'? Emails don't count as 'hearing from me'?

You simply can't win.

[OKrunch]

Wow, really really great information, thank you all so much.

The "Spidey Sense" just went bonkers again for the 3rd time today.
Similar to my "shoe is gonna drop" gut feeling.
Something is happening.

Im enjoying the warm night and almost full moon.

[OKrunch]

Had a good cry this morning. I have a hard time crying, and its always very cleansing when I can manage it.
So, my mood is doing pretty good today. Going to finalize paperwork for new apartment after work. Excited to move this weekend, Next weeks weather looks sunny and amazing. FInally real spring weather, return of my normal custody and a new home, Finally. Good things.

"Spidey Sense" is still on high alert, came in strong waves yesterday.
Something is definitley coming down the pipe. What, I cannot say.

[cranmango]

Rooting for you, friend. Crying can indeed be very cleansing.

Stay connected to the present moment. Lots of positive steps for you today and in the coming weeks.

[OKrunch]

No contact is a thing.

It is working on me, and as a secondary (not my intention) i believe it is working on her end as well.

The challenge is this, the longer NC goes, the stronger my intuition and temptation get, but so too do the rewards and growth of NC increase over time as well.

[Pook075]

No contact is a thing.

It is working on me, and as a secondary (not my intention) i believe it is working on her end as well.

The challenge is this, the longer NC goes, the stronger my intuition and temptation get, but so too do the rewards and growth of NC increase over time as well.

If it helps, I've been NC for about 5 months now and it's been bugging me as well.  My wife's called 3 or 4 times, over bills or friends, and we had pretty good (short) conversations each time.  She called yesterday because she heard I got laid off at work and she wanted to see if I was okay.

I often wonder if NC is the way to go, but the bottom line is that my wife had/has some mental health stuff she has to work through before we will be able to talk about us.  Maybe that day never comes and I'll be okay with that.  It is really hard to leave one foot in the door though, so to speak, while trying to wait and move on at the same time.

From my experience, what helped me heal the most, was to completely let her go and live her own life.  I can't wait for her because the odds are slim that it ever works out between us.  I think to myself all the time, "we were married for 24 years", but that's sort of the hook- what we had during the good times is nothing like where we're at today- her or me.  We're both different people and the damage has been done. 

I can move on from that and completely forgive her, but right now she's incapable of doing that with me.  So there's no path forward today and I accept that.  I will continue to hope our paths cross again down the road but at the same time, I'm not sitting back waiting on it either.  I have to live my life and be happy without her.

[OKrunch]

If it helps, I've been NC for about 5 months now and it's been bugging me as well.  My wife's called 3 or 4 times, over bills or friends, and we had pretty good (short) conversations each time.  She called yesterday because she heard I got laid off at work and she wanted to see if I was okay.

I am trying not to spend so much time thinking about and anticipating similar style temp checks. If patterns maintain, they will happen soon, but they may not.
But holy hell, every day that goes by that she doesn't, it is harder for me not to reach out, and the desire for her to do so grows.

" i would be thinking in terms of giving this thing a wide berth, trying, to the extent i can, to emotionally move on, rebuild my life, and be that most attractive version of myself, whether she ends up back in it or not.

right now, her attention is going to be on this relationship; thats just the way it is, and needs to be. i dont think that necessarily means she wont be in touch at all. i suspect she might be. but, i would let her lead on that completely, and leave all of that up to her."
THIS ^^

[OKrunch]

I often wonder if NC is the way to go, but the bottom line is that my wife had/has some mental health stuff she has to work through before we will be able to talk about us.  Maybe that day never comes and I'll be okay with that.  It is really hard to leave one foot in the door though, so to speak, while trying to wait and move on at the same time.

I can very much agree with this outlook also.

[SinisterComplex]

If it helps, I've been NC for about 5 months now and it's been bugging me as well.  My wife's called 3 or 4 times, over bills or friends, and we had pretty good (short) conversations each time.  She called yesterday because she heard I got laid off at work and she wanted to see if I was okay.

I often wonder if NC is the way to go, but the bottom line is that my wife had/has some mental health stuff she has to work through before we will be able to talk about us.  Maybe that day never comes and I'll be okay with that.  It is really hard to leave one foot in the door though, so to speak, while trying to wait and move on at the same time.

From my experience, what helped me heal the most, was to completely let her go and live her own life.  I can't wait for her because the odds are slim that it ever works out between us.  I think to myself all the time, "we were married for 24 years", but that's sort of the hook- what we had during the good times is nothing like where we're at today- her or me.  We're both different people and the damage has been done. 

I can move on from that and completely forgive her, but right now she's incapable of doing that with me.  So there's no path forward today and I accept that.  I will continue to hope our paths cross again down the road but at the same time, I'm not sitting back waiting on it either.  I have to live my life and be happy without her.

Bottom line is you have to figure out what works for you and when you do then commit to it full steam ahead. Half-@$$ing anything just leads to half-@$$ed results. Can't believe I just said that... my dad used to say that crap to me when I was in sports. I guess the wisdom stuck because here I am passing it on...Go figure how that old stuff filters through at random times. 

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[OKrunch]

Last night was awful.
Dreams, and now daydreams of them cuddling, playing with the dogs in our sunny lakeside yard, having sex, all wonderfuly detailed images my brain is force feeding me.
Why does my mind insist on torturing me, even when im activley trying to keep it out of my head.?

It makes not reaching out 10x harder...