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Author Topic: Boundaries and not taking BPD spouse insults personally  (Read 5437 times)
AlleyOop23
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« on: May 28, 2023, 09:34:37 PM »

After a lot of bibliotherapy I am confused.

I understand that setting  boundaries can help improve a relationship.  But most writings go on to temper expectations for a relationship with a BPD.

But if I am being my authentic self the way I handle ALL OTHER relationships is to insist on discussion and repair. My spouse has said things that can never be taken back and that no one should tolerate. And my spouse has hit me twice recently )and not before in 25 years). . I was not hurt but my spouse will not disavow that conduct or promise not to repeat it.

So I can improve behavior with boundaries but how do I heal?
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livednlearned
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« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2023, 11:39:29 AM »

To not be violent for 25 years and then begin ... has anything changed that you can think of?

For many of us, healing or closure is something we have to gift ourselves. There can be too much shame and defensiveness in a person suffering with BPD to cross that chasm. It takes a sense of self to make the distinction.

A pwBPD in treatment may be able to do so but not without.

Is your wife behaving as though nothing happened?

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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2023, 10:21:45 PM »

I understand that setting  boundaries can help improve a relationship.  But most writings go on to temper expectations for a relationship with a BPD.

Before I came here I thought boundaries were placed on the one behaving improperly.  However people with BPD (pwBPD) resist boundaries.  Therefore, your boundaries will have to be your boundaries you place on yourself.  More specifically, your boundaries as stated to your spouse would be what you will do in response to poor behavior.  Read the two topics on Boundaries here on the Tools & Skills workshop board:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0

But if I am being my authentic self the way I handle ALL OTHER relationships is to insist on discussion and repair.

My ex would be always trying to relentlessly lecture me on all my perceived faults, over and over again, at great length even into the wee hours of the night.  (I still remember ex declaring "we will fix this tonight" even for endless hours to 2 or 3 in the morning when I had to get up at 6 to go to work.  That was the opposite of productive.  And just one small reason, among many bigger ones, why we're no longer married.)  So probably in your case your concerns should be stated somewhat briefly and also not rehash past incidents overmuch.  (They probably are already but we weren't there and so this is just a general comment.)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2023, 10:30:26 PM by ForeverDad » Logged

AlleyOop23
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2023, 02:23:51 AM »

Thanks, that’s exactly what happens. She’ll just go on and on until I just am finally done. Really validating thanks.
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AlleyOop23
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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2023, 02:28:12 AM »

As far as changed, yes. She burned out working with a difficult population as a dietitian, quit her job (with my support) and started peri menopause. These thjngs amplified her identity issues and mood swings. And yes she acts as though nothing happened. When I confronted her she blamed me and said I knew she couldn’t hurt me (I’m big).
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AlleyOop23
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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2023, 02:30:37 AM »

Sometimes I wonder if she has BPD or comorbidity of PTSD/adhd/peri menopause.

But when I come here the stories are so similar it’s every to me.
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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2023, 09:10:55 AM »

Sometimes I wonder if she has BPD or comorbidity of PTSD/adhd/peri menopause.

But when I come here the stories are so similar it’s every to me.

Complex ptsd, adhd, and bpd have behaviors and traits that overlap and so it can be difficult to tell if it’s one, the other, or a combination. A diagnosis isn’t so much necessary here; we focus on problem behaviors and ways that we can respond and be proactive in navigating the relationship and our own self care.
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AlleyOop23
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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2023, 10:26:05 AM »

A year ago I was woken up to the fact that I am in an emotionality abusive relationship.  What gives me pause over leaving is if she is BPD and I haven’t set snd enforced boundaries and provided structure am I giving up too easily. Or is that my brain looking for an excuse to stay put. Or is the face that regardless of what’s going on the fact that she won’t seek help or acknowledge the hurt in any way all that I need to know?
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« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2023, 12:23:00 PM »

I have found in my BPD relationships that there is no avoiding the fact I have to be the emotional leader.

It is much more challenging to do this in an intimate relationship.

Bill Eddy has a way of looking at the severity that might also be helpful:

1. Generally cooperative, not dangerous
2. Not cooperative, not dangerous
3. Not cooperative, dangerous

Dangerous can mean false allegations of child abuse, false allegations of sexual abuse, substance abuse, physical abuse, suicidal ideation, self-harm, vexatious litigation. People who are high-conflict personalities (by his definition) tend to have a target of blame, are persuasive blamers, and recruit negative advocates. This tends to be most apparent for pwBPD who work the legal system but it can exist without. Not all pwBPD are high-conflict personalities, but all HCIs have a personality disorder of some type.

If your wife is generally cooperative, not dangerous some of the skills here will be more effective than others.

What I found after leaving my ex (n/BPD + substance abuse) is that I was a shell of a person. Being in a string of difficult relationships and coming from a family of origin that was dysfunctional and pathologic meant I was not a prime candidate for being an emotional leader. I was not as emotionally stunted as my ex but I wasn't far off. When you're focused so much on other people it takes valuable attention away from you. There is often much growing to be done if your family of origin was emotionally abusive or negligent.

Many of us wait until we are so broken down by conflict and dysfunction that it's very challenging to turn around a ship we helped drive into the ground. Focusing on the dysfunction that was so out of control in my marriage meant not having a clue who I was, and that made it challenging to even begin the journey toward emotional leadership.I'm finally in a normal relationship and I think about issues in my marriage about 5 to 10 percent of the time. The rest goes toward growing and being a whole person. Before, I spent 100 percent of the time trying to figure out how to fix or save or rescue or control my spouse.

Maybe some people can change the relationship from inside it, especially if your partner is not dangerous. Mine was dangerous and my nervous system was so jacked up I suspect there wasn't really ever a choice to be made. We were destined for collapse. At the time, so deep into codependent delusion, I thought the survival of our marriage was entirely on my shoulders. Looking back, it was a sick relationship with one conclusion. The question was when it would end, not if.

That's why people often focus on what we're doing in the relationship. Not because it's our fault, but because to really make any kind of impact, you have to be your best self, or at least willing to do what it takes to get there.

It is odd to say this, but I feel like I did my ex a favor. I think the vulnerability and intimacy that comes with marriage was chronically dysregulating him. Marriage seemed to increase the emotional lability because there was just more ... material.

I don't like the terms low-functioning or high-functioning because it seems to mean holding down a job or not and while that's not nothing, it kind of dismisses the entirety of what life is like inside the home. Someone who has a job but experiences psychosis and wakes up in his own feces and yells at his wife for cleaning it up is high-functioning? How.

I am a repeat customer when it comes to BPD relationships. It was in my family of origin and I married/divorced a man with BPD. Lord knows what some of my former partners had but I seemed to be a great fit for difficult relationships with emotionally stunted men. My current (healthy, lovely) husband has an ex with BPD, and I am all but certain his adult daughter has BPD, in a more classic way than my ex.

What I learned at the tail end of my marriage, and what I really learned with SD26 is that these relationships die and fail on boundaries and validation. Support, empathy, truth (SET) can be sET or SEt or SeT. Often, for me, with SD26, it is seT.

We say boundaries are for us, but they are mostly for the health of the relationship. My relationship with SD26 is 99 percent boundaries (hard to do with a spouse) and the result is no more boot prints on my back. I can't believe I'm saying this but I think there might actually be respect there. The difference is that I owe her no intimacy. In a marriage, that's harder (but not impossible) to pull off because the needs are higher. 

A therapist helped me through the most minute details of what drove me nuts in my BPD relationship and we worked out how I would enact boundaries. Some of them were inconvenient to me -- that's the unspoken secret about boundaries. They're a ton of work. Sometimes they felt almost as challenging as the BPD behaviors, the difference is that boundaries tended to get easier over time.

I also don't expect anything from SD26, or from my ex (or family of origin for that matter). I cannot get validation from any of them because their needs for validation are astronomically higher. They are more driven and more intent on getting those needs met and expecting them to change only keeps me in a permanent state of misery. Just like our BPDers need validation, so do we. These relationships, these skills -- nothing is going to change if you aren't finding validation somewhere, even if it's a person you pay, like a therapist.

In NEA-BPD Family Connections, they like to say that you can't change your BPD loved one but you can change yourself, and those changes can change the pwBPD. That's the approach I took with SD26 and it did help. I made the mistake of over-validating her -- I didn't "validate the invalid" as they say here. I just did validated too much until I was in permanent doormat territory. I went from that to full-time boundaries and things started to change, but maybe all that validation helped pave the way for the boundaries, idk. I only asserted boundaries I knew were within my control, others took a backseat. And I didn't discuss my boundaries, I simply had them. Most were non-verbal. That made the target invisible.

SD26 is now somewhat deferential to me. When she visits, she seems to be trying to win me over. I see her cycle through different personas, trying different ones to see if something will punch through a boundary. I treat her like an adult and expect her to be accountable and for the most part, she is the most mature with me compared to the rest of her family, although only in short bursts. This is often punctuated by a need for me to validate that she's a brave/smart/creative/clever adult, and that's fine. I can offer that in limited quantities if I am not being actively aggressed against.

My advice is to stop focusing on her seeking help, and seek it for yourself. It won't be wasted, whether you stay or leave. I'm not quite grateful for the train wreck of my BPD marriage -- I wish my lessons weren't so expensive and painful, and I definitely wish they didn't come at the expense of my son's well-being. But no amount of money would be worth being the person I was in my BPD marriage.

Apologies for the length and directness. My BPD SD26 will be here in a few weeks and my nervous system is beginning to roil. I came back from visiting my disordered family of origin recently and the dysfunction sandwich is a bit close.

Don't beat yourself up for not knowing whether to stay or go. It simply means you don't yet have enough knowledge. Keep posting here, keep reading, keep sharing with people who care about you, who want to see you feel better.

It's anonymous here but people will get to know your story, and to know you. We understand why it's hard to decide and what it's like to both stay and go.

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

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AlleyOop23
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« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2023, 02:01:18 PM »

I am gratified to the point of tears by your time attention insight and affirmation. Thank you thank you.

And I’m sorry - who is SD26?
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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2023, 02:26:58 PM »

I'm in and out of the hospital with a serious medical problem, and yet uBPD H keeps bullying me for chores.  It's hard not to take it as personal.
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« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2023, 06:35:56 PM »

I am gratified to the point of tears by your time attention insight and affirmation

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

I’m sorry - who is SD26?

Oops, my oversight. She's my stepdaughter (who has a BPD mother) and recently turned 26 (SD26). Everything that I failed to learn in my BPD marriage I ended up getting straight in my relationship with SD26. If I didn't get it sorted out she would've wrecked my current marriage.

I seem to be on a roll here. Hope this is helpful ...

Without treatment, a person suffering from BPD has near relentless needs that cannot be met by others.

If you don't have a self (ie BPD), then everything happening to you, including your own feelings, is caused by other people. There is no boundary between you and others, unless the other person asserts that boundary. I think SD26 tests boundaries and resists them at the same time she feels safe, but only when they are consistently and reliably solid. This might be the source of the respect I sense. She is more waif-like (but covertly aggressive) so this may be specific to the way her traits present.

One way to focus on healing is to imagine a cup. (This is the metaphor I used to help me in an almost minute-by-minute way. I was a knucklehead who really needed explicit instructions  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post) Your mileage may vary).

I worked to fill my cup every night with a good sleep. If I didn't sleep well and my cup wasn't full, I took better care of myself the next day. By taking care, I mean things like go to the gym, take a walk, spend time with friends. People with BPD can empty a full cup pretty quick. If my cup was full, I could do more with SD26. If it wasn't full, I meditated in my room, went for a walk by myself, met friends for coffee. I had to do a lot of expectation management with SD26. While trying to drive a wedge between her dad and me, she simultaneously wanted full attention. Anything to not be alone. I could fill my cup in small drops (maybe more like not allow it to be drained) by stating the schedule for my day, how long I would be gone, when I would be back, what I would do when I got back, and then finally, the exact time I would be available. I started many conversations with, "I'd like to hear about this. I have ____ minutes before I have to do _____. Let's make a plan to talk when I can listen while cooking." It's exhausting, but it was better than screaming into a pillow while she jiggled the locked door to my bedroom, trying to get in. (Joking about the screaming but not about the door.)

In a BPD marriage, it's easy to have a cup run dry. If that's the case, job #1 is to figure out how to change that. Even a drop is a start. If you don't know what a full cup feels like, time to figure it out! Make that a top priority. Maybe it means seeing a therapist. I went to see one and had to make up an excuse for why I went (during my BPD marriage). That's ok -- tough times require tough decisions. Someone who empties your cup on a daily basis might not be trustworthy when it comes to filling it. You might need to guard information.

I'm starting to give myself pep talks as the arrival date of SD26 nears. I have much better boundaries but there's still healing to do, and a lot of that damage is not necessarily because of her. It predates her and it's the stuff I know is on my side of the street. People who lack boundaries are challenging for many people but for those of us who have decades dealing with those patterns it can feel extra draining.

I think it's harder to heal when you're coasting with an empty cup. I had to figure out what it felt like to feel ok before I could take on some of the healing. Then, living with SD26 and going through my 3rd rodeo with BPD, I feel like I maybe even reached that elusive emotional leadership that people referred to.

Is there anything going on right now you feel safe sharing here? Sometimes it helps just to get it into language.

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« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2023, 11:44:59 PM »

Thanks so much!

Stuff going on:

This has gotten so much worse over the last 3 years. Why after 22 years?

I’ve now put up with things no one should. I’ll never get over them no matter how many times I read that you can’t take it personally. She hasn’t said “I love you” to me or even paid me a compliment in over 2 years. Why am I still here?

If I were the emotional leader and strong enough to endure intense ugly broadsides amd let them roll off me, I would STILL be modeling the dynamic, showing my daughters how to treat or be treated. If I pass this on to them it will truly break my heart.  

I have a therapist. She missed all this. It was some divorce lawyers in a coaching group listening to me talk about being shoved and trapped in the bathroom. They all just went off around my wife’s mental health amd turned me on to the fact of emotional abuse.

I don’t see a path to happiness. I just want the courage and conviction to leave. I work full time she’s home full time. Im afraid of how the custody of our kids will play out

It seems like a dream not spending 100% of my mental energy on this relationship.

If she won’t acknowledge any part of anything that’s going on, wont acknowledge when I tell her I’ve been hurt, won’t agree not to yell at me, swear at me or even hit me, what choice does that leave me? I can’t believe I typed that last sentence as a question. What the hells wrong with me? Why don’t I care more for myself?.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 12:56:07 AM by AlleyOop23 » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2023, 12:33:58 PM »

Why don’t I care more for myself?.

What a great question. Just asking it says a lot about where you are in your healing. Don't you think you must care about yourself to even ask it?

I don't think it's realistic to expect that insults won't cut deep.

Have you read this? https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down


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AlleyOop23
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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2023, 01:04:20 AM »

Yeah, I’ve read  Gottman. When I suggested we look at it together she told me she hose books werent for me, because there’s something far deeper wrong with me, I’m so far out of touch with my emotions she said she believes I’m on the autism spectrum. It was rough
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« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2023, 01:34:38 PM »

My ex used to say similar things to me, and worse.

When I was out of the marriage and had nothing pushing against me, quite honestly there was some truth in what he said. At least for some things.

When you can look at these things in a safe environment, with supportive, skilled people encouraging you to get yourself sorted out, it can be a tremendous source of growth.

When it's someone blaming or accusing or shaming you for falling short, it cuts deep.

Hurt people hurt people, as they say.

Can't resist commenting on the autistic piece ... there are plenty of people on the spectrum who are in touch with their emotions, but those ways work different than people who are neurotypical, or not autistic. Some experts call it the double empathy conundrum. Meaning, people who are neurotypical lack empathy for the ways neurodiverse people experience emotion and vice versa.

My son is on the spectrum and he started to shut down hard in the face of n/BPDx's verbal abuse. That ended 10 years ago and S21, with the help of a great therapist and lots of extreme validation on my part, is more empathic than most neurotypical people I know.

Just saying that being autistic can be a compliment  Being cool (click to insert in post)

Sometimes what we see when we're seeing autistic people is our own lack of understanding (and often, empathy).
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2023, 01:45:51 PM »

It was rough

Sadly, so much of an acting-out persons behavior and words are way beyond just being negative.  They're consistently hurtful, unbelievably so, with just enough nice times for you to stay.

I recall my ex shouting such unbelievably hurtful things... I was effeminate... she wore the pants in the family... she would keep me up into all hours of the night demanding she would "fix this" when she knew I had to go to work a few hours later with little sleep... she told my toddler I didn't love him but she did... she threatened to disappear with our young child... it was endless.  The disparagement was verbal abuse but it left no visible cuts or bruises.

It hurts you because the other person intended to hurt you.  Sure, the other's personality is warped but that's no excuse, it still is hurtful and not right.
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« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2023, 04:15:52 PM »

Thank you both of you.  The affirmation is a big deal.

And thanks for the way you expressed yourself on autism. To be clear it hurt because it was intended to be minimizing and a path of establishing control. “I k ow you better than you because I can see that you [_______] and you cannot.”  It could have been any word. It was the intent that hurt.

If I am autistic (or anything else for that matter) I would appreciate knowing that as constructive feedback. Then I would go get more and better tools for myself!
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« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2023, 11:34:26 AM »

it hurt because it was intended to be minimizing and a path of establishing control. “I k ow you better than you because I can see that you [_______] and you cannot.”  It could have been any word. It was the intent that hurt.

You're really insightful to recognize this.

I would go a step further and say that she wants you to feel as bad as she does.

Then she's less alone.

Plus, if she's putting you down then you aren't noticing her stuff. Now you have to work through what she's saying about you.

I watched my H's BPDx wife shame my step daughter (SD26) for trying to lose weight. H is a physician and was worried about her weight gain so young since he sees adults struggling with diabetes. SD26 was on medications that caused weight gain and she seems to struggle with binge eating. She put some effort into losing that weight and her BPD mom would shame her for eating salads and joining a gym. Who does that?

BPD misery loves company.

It is chilling to me watching her sabotage her kids when they show even a hint of succeeding at something.
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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2023, 10:56:14 PM »

This is a text exchange. In 25 years, she threw an easel at me 12 years ago. Left and we did therapy and I stayed.

A year ago she shoved me and wouldn’t let me out of the bathroom unless I pushed past her (which I didn’t do, she eventually went away) and then a month ago she hit me with a pillow repeatedly as hard as she could swing it, then punched me in the chest hard emough to leave a mark and then shoved me. I was never hurt but her rage was scary

 I wrote this text (among numerous similar ones):

I wrote above about all our interactions. Time alone is time spent telling me what I’ve done wrong or how I’ve disappointed. I just feel pushed away. I tell you over and over I can’t come back from all that and just be this warm loving guy. I feel hurt and unloved and my feelings I acknowledged.  I’m only human.

I tried to love you as best I could. Nothing I ever did or didn’t do was on purpose or intentional. Amd when I came up short I’ve tried, really tried to do better.  I tried and still try to listen and do better.

You hit me. You shoved me. You trapped me. You threw an book at my head. You won’t apologize. You won’t say you won’t do it again. And you have never apologized to me, for anything, ever. Instead you l tell Me it’s my fault you did those things to me. Amd you won’t even acknowledge it.

I ask to be treated with kindness and respect and you just say no.

You don’t yell at anyone else. You don’t make fun of anyone else in public. You don’t tell anyone else to PLEASE READ off.

Why am I special like that? Why? Why am I different than everyone else in the world? Have you ever closed all the windows to yell at anyone else? Have you ever hit or shoved oe thrown something at anyone else in the last 27 years? Screamed I hate you?
Why? Why me?

And I got this back:

Ok. I see thst you just absolutely refuse to hear me and won’t ever respond any other way. So that’s that.

Then me again:

But I tell you I understand. I tell you that I’m sorry. I tell you that you should have the things you want from me.
Why can’t you just say I’m sorry I hit you? It’s so easy to say. Why do you withhold that?

And her:

So you’re not hearing me or doing anything for this relationship…you’re just doing what you want and need….I’m still not a part of it for you


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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2023, 12:34:18 AM »

You don’t yell at anyone else. You don’t make fun of anyone else in public. You don’t tell anyone else to Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) off.

Why am I special like that? Why? Why am I different than everyone else in the world? Have you ever closed all the windows to yell at anyone else? Have you ever hit or shoved or thrown something at anyone else in the last 27 years? Screamed I hate you?
Why? Why me?

You are in a close, obligated relationship.  Married.  In private scenarios away from public eyes.  Spouse feels free to let loose and do things spouse would never do (not yet) in public.  And nothing you say or do - short of ending the relationship - gives you any leverage or weight in your attempt to reason.

Spouse knows what she's doing.  Shutting windows to yell privately?  A reasonably normal person would try to behave well both in private as well as public.

Note the sentence in bold emphasis:
And for the children to see this discord all the time isn't good for them even if it's not directed at them.  Children learn by example.  If this dysfunctional example is their home life growing up, what life choices will they make seeking relationships when they're grown and gone?

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Nearly 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

The mega-dollar question is whether he will change for the better.  Stripping away all the smaller issues, what you choose to do with the marriage hinges on whether he will change.  Thus far he hasn't and that's not a good sign.  You've surely tried and tried yet it is so hard for a disordered person to get past the emotional baggage of the relationship to really listen and respond.  Would he see a counselor or therapist — a neutral professional with no emotional ties that may be able to help — and let go his Denial and Blaming, diligently apply the therapy in his life and thinking and do so over the long term?  Frankly, you've done what you can in the relationship, if he won't respond to therapy then you have to decide your future knowing he won't improve.
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AlleyOop23
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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2023, 10:02:08 AM »

Thank you for this. I get so confused because all this stems from her genuine pain. So I feel a confusing obligation amd guilt overlaid on my reaction that this is not okay.

Thx for focusing on the windows. Every time she does that it I find it unsettling. But couldn’t put my finger on exactly why amd also there’s this part of me that’s so conditioned that I think that closing the windows to yell is just prudent.
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2023, 12:42:28 PM »

This has gotten so much worse over the last 3 years. Why after 22 years?

Often there are triggers to behavior changes.  You mentioned she quit work a few years ago.  Do you think she would behave better if she went back to work?  Was that about the time when perimenopause became a topic of discussion?  Did something else change, perhaps with the children?

It has long been known that a long list of triggers (varying depending on the person) worse behaviors can be preparing for vacations, upcoming graduations, weddings, birthdays, anniversaries, visits with your relatives, etc.

I have a therapist. She missed all this. It was some divorce lawyers in a coaching group listening to me talk about being shoved and trapped in the bathroom. They all just went off around my wife’s mental health and turned me on to the fact of emotional abuse.

I don’t see a path to happiness. I just want the courage and conviction to leave. I work full time she’s home full time. I'm afraid of how the custody of our kids will play out.

What are the approximate age ranges of the kids?  If they're already teens, then they will be close to being adults by the time a divorce concludes.  Whatever their ages, you do have to try for the best ( = least bad) temp order because our temp orders are longer than "temporary".

Do the children have their own counselor?  A counselor not controlled or influenced by their disordered parent?  My lawyer told me family court loves counseling.  A good counselor is worth his or her weight in gold, so to speak.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2023, 12:42:52 PM »

It's eerie to read messages that could've come out of my own past. And similar types of physical abuse.

n/BPDx used pillows to hit me, often when I was asleep. I think it shows a degree of self-restraint  yet being out of control at the same time. Telling someone your spouse hit you with a pillow can seem less severe than throwing a rock at your head but the intent is the same: they are trying to dominate, coerce, control, bully, intimidate.

As to why she cannot hear what you're saying in your texts, that has a lot to do with BPD.

People with BPD have no solid sense of self. Their need for validation is all consuming.

Many of us come into these relationships with equally high needs for validation (it's why many of us are susceptible to love-bombing).

Two people who desperately need validation makes for a rocky relationship. Especially when the BPD person has a near bottomless need. You will never win that contest.

You say in the text messages that you need something. She responds that the problem is that you have needs at all.

There is a personality theory that our early relationship dynamics get encoded in our brain. An internal map is made. Young children create summaries based on early repeated relationship dynamics. These summaries serve the basis for later relationships.

Your wife's summaries are stunted by trauma or neglect or whatnot. She is very, very stuck. She may be stuck in a more stuck place than you or any of us can imagine. She's not on equal footing.

Meanwhile, in her dysfunction, she is badly damaging you, something you are susceptible to due to your own summaries and encoding.

Sometimes, when people with BPD are in a full-blown dysregulation, the best thing is to simplify your message so it can be heard even if her brain is flooded in emotion. Words like: Stop. No. Enough. Go. Leave. Said calmly, firmly, assertively, like talking to a child who is in an out-of-control tantrum.

It can feel weird to do this. You are looking at a grown @ss woman who is intimidating you, yet you're speaking to her like a child.

I was a small female in an abusive relationship holding up my hand and saying STOP repeatedly to an intoxicated, large, mentally ill and abusive man. And it worked.

Someone trying to trap you in a bathroom is coming from a place of extreme fear and rage and isn't in her right mind.

In these relationships, we have to be the ones to diffuse these moments because they can't. If she doesn't walk away, give her a clear direction on what to do so she doesn't make things worse: Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop.

Honestly, I don't know if it will work. It could make it worse. I learned it in the book about verbal abuse written by Patricia Evans.

At a minimum, know that your job in this struggling relationship is to stabilize these moments. If that's hard to do -- and believe me, I understand that it is hard -- then that means you need to focus on what's missing to get you there. Therapy for partners in BPD relationship should be written into the marriage contract. These are challenging relationships for therapists, and they can be impossible for spouses without a set of skills and outside support, especially if the pwBPD is not in treatment.
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AlleyOop23
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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2023, 06:48:46 PM »

This feedback means the world to me. Thank you.

My kids are 11 and 13.
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AlleyOop23
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« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2023, 08:50:38 PM »

My wife has twice had changes that challenged her view of herself. The first was attending graduate school. It was highly stressful for her. She was just awful and I moved out. She begged me to come back and finally agreed to counseling. I came back and we had two kids. That was 15 years ago.

The second was quitting her stressful health care job. It was dragging her down, she had major compassion fatigue. With my full support she quit, the idea being she would figure out what was next. She’s been angry ever since. When I pointed this out she said i was making it about the money. I told her to go find something even if it didn’t pay. She said only now without the distraction of work did she truly see how unhappy she was, mostly with me. COVID and at home school poured gas on all that. It’s really been awful for 3 years now.

She started talking about perimenopausal symptoms shortly after she quit. So that too.
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« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2023, 04:34:30 PM »

It's eerie to read messages that could've come out of my own past. And similar types of physical abuse.

n/BPDx used pillows to hit me, often when I was asleep. I think it shows a degree of self-restraint  yet being out of control at the same time. Telling someone your spouse hit you with a pillow can seem less severe than throwing a rock at your head but the intent is the same: they are trying to dominate, coerce, control, bully, intimidate.

As to why she cannot hear what you're saying in your texts, that has a lot to do with BPD.

People with BPD have no solid sense of self. Their need for validation is all consuming.

Many of us come into these relationships with equally high needs for validation (it's why many of us are susceptible to love-bombing).

Two people who desperately need validation makes for a rocky relationship. Especially when the BPD person has a near bottomless need. You will never win that contest.

You say in the text messages that you need something. She responds that the problem is that you have needs at all.

There is a personality theory that our early relationship dynamics get encoded in our brain. An internal map is made. Young children create summaries based on early repeated relationship dynamics. These summaries serve the basis for later relationships.

Your wife's summaries are stunted by trauma or neglect or whatnot. She is very, very stuck. She may be stuck in a more stuck place than you or any of us can imagine. She's not on equal footing.

Meanwhile, in her dysfunction, she is badly damaging you, something you are susceptible to due to your own summaries and encoding.

Sometimes, when people with BPD are in a full-blown dysregulation, the best thing is to simplify your message so it can be heard even if her brain is flooded in emotion. Words like: Stop. No. Enough. Go. Leave. Said calmly, firmly, assertively, like talking to a child who is in an out-of-control tantrum.

It can feel weird to do this. You are looking at a grown @ss woman who is intimidating you, yet you're speaking to her like a child.

I was a small female in an abusive relationship holding up my hand and saying STOP repeatedly to an intoxicated, large, mentally ill and abusive man. And it worked.

Someone trying to trap you in a bathroom is coming from a place of extreme fear and rage and isn't in her right mind.

In these relationships, we have to be the ones to diffuse these moments because they can't. If she doesn't walk away, give her a clear direction on what to do so she doesn't make things worse: Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop.

Honestly, I don't know if it will work. It could make it worse. I learned it in the book about verbal abuse written by Patricia Evans.

At a minimum, know that your job in this struggling relationship is to stabilize these moments. If that's hard to do -- and believe me, I understand that it is hard -- then that means you need to focus on what's missing to get you there. Therapy for partners in BPD relationship should be written into the marriage contract. These are challenging relationships for therapists, and they can be impossible for spouses without a set of skills and outside support, especially if the pwBPD is not in treatment.


Really insightful post here. Thank you. I'm out three years and still trying, trying to *understand* what happened. I can't understand, but this was really helpful.

It reminds me of a time, in public in a deli of a fancy grocery store, where I just said to her "you know, when you don't answer my calls or texts for days or even a week at a time, it's hurtful and dehumanizing and confusing, especially when you say you love me" and she went off on me for 55 minutes, putting me down, diminishing every aspect of who I am, getting very angry...the usual, you know. She let me know she was doing it on purpose, "spending time with her friends since they understand her life".

I then said, very calmly, "Please stop. _______, please stop. Please stop_____, please stop" as she continued on, talking over me.

She then stormed away from the store, leaving me sitting there stunned. I took this as she was breaking up with, since she admitted to ignoring me for months and seemed to hate me so much, and everything about who I am.

She texted me the next day "talk tomorrow?". I didn't respond that day, since I figured she'd broken up with me and I was really hurt by her words.

1.5 days later she sent me a vicious email telling me how cruel and punishing I am.

Anyway, thank you for that beautiful post, it's really helpful to me, and others I'm sure.
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2023, 12:45:03 AM »

Really insightful post here. Thank you. I'm out three years and still trying, trying to *understand* what happened. I can't understand, but this was really helpful.

Of course  you can't understand.  These acting-out PDs, of which Borderline is one, have the effect of being focused on projecting onto others, rather than focused inward (acting-in).

Plus, everyone has various personality traits, and they vary from one person to the next.  That's fine, since we're not robots off an assembly line.  However, if those personality traits veer too far from normal values, then it becomes a personality disorder.

The pwBPD in your life has traits that have strayed so far from the norm, as in "acting out", that they're not only abnormal, they're also hurtful.  How can you understand (in a logical, normal way) something that is abnormal, dysfunctional and illogical?

So you haven't failed.  You just have to accept that what you've experienced just will never make sense in a normal way.

Innumerable textbooks have been written to describe the personality disorders, they list the behavior patterns but still it doesn't make normal everyday common sense.  Accept that.
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AlleyOop23
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« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2023, 03:09:13 PM »

The posts here have been profoundly insightful and influential. After therapy, books, coaching, talking to professionals, podcasts, it has been here that all of this has finally gelled for me, at least in terms of internalizing my understanding. Repeatedly people have weighed in offering advice based on their experiences and the huge difference maker - sharing episodes of the exact same behavior. For me that’s all so helpful. Even above with the spouse saying “my friends understand me” which I get all the time.

The thoughts in the last posts about how to view behavior are amazing for me.

I am contemplating divorce and this helps with that. But I’ll be tied to my spouse forever as we share children.

The perspective I have fought myself to obtain has been facilitated here.

Thank you thank you for your time helping me here. And I’m sure I’ll have losses of clarity and struggles and I’ll be back I’m sure and hope someday I’ll be able to pay it forward
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livednlearned
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« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2023, 04:35:09 PM »

I’ll be tied to my spouse forever as we share children.

When you learn what is happening to someone struggling with BPD, and you try to make sense of those behaviors and how they impact parenting, it can lead you to the best version of yourself.

There is so much more to unlock here than what is BPD.

After my divorce, I was pretty clear on the PD side of things. It was living with a stepdaughter with BPD that immersed me in the full suite of skills.

Whether you divorce or not, whether you focus on healthy development for you or your kids, there is the potential for deep healing here.

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

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