Boundary Setting in Shared Spaces

[grootyoda]

Hi All,
My BPD W and I are a few months into the divorce process and I need some advice on how to handle boundaries in shared spaces, namely our church.

Just a little background - my W was not a church goer prior to us dating, but started going with me and “got really into it” by being the person who does the coffee bar during services. She doesn’t really participate in the religious aspects of church, but she likes the social parts. We also have a two year old daughter who typically stays in the nursery during small group and worship time in the morning.

She signed a temporary agreement giving me sole custody at the beginning of the divorce, with her having supervised visits on Sunday afternoons. Her visits don’t start until a few hours after services to give me time to get our daughter lunch and the supervisor time to either transport my daughter or meet with my W to come pick up. We do not communicate with one another aside from texting unless it is absolutely necessary due to her having a tendency to revise our conversations as a form of manipulation.

Since I started going back to church with my daughter (I took some time to evaluate whether we could keep going to the same church), my W has gotten into the habit of asking to see our daughter after I pick her up from the nursery. I’ve tried to accommodate her requests, but the logistics have become pretty untenable. The church recently asked us to use designated areas for her “hellos” to avoid blocking the nursery wing entrance, and there really isn’t enough time for us to meet up, say goodbye, and then depart to prepare for actual visitation - at most they get 2-3 minutes in and then we have to deal with one more difficult transition on a day full of them. I finally told her as much after her most recent request and she said that was understandable.

She has also been encouraging me to come back to the service we attended together because “everyone really missed me”, and to be honest I have missed getting to see my community. I finally went back a few weeks ago and it seemed like things were going well.

This previous Sunday, however, I could tell she seemed distressed - she was sitting with some of her friends at the end of the service and looked like she had been crying. Later, as I was getting my daughter into her car seat, I noticed she was standing a few feet away from my car watching us - after I saw her she turned around and walked to her own car. Later, during her visitation, she sent me a video she had taken of me during the service (no additional message, just a video). It looked like I was talking to another parent across the room, and she was commenting to a friend about it.

The filming thing left me feeling a little violated. I decided not to respond to her about it, figuring that this is probably attention seeking behavior rather than something I actually need to worry about. That said, I have some questions.

1. What else should I be concerned about in terms of continuing to have shared social spaces with her?
2. How should I go about addressing concerns about the filming thing? Is there a point at which I should go to someone about it, or is the “ignore it and deprive the fire of oxygen” approach probably sufficient?
3. What should I do about these requests to see our daughter right after service? It doesn’t feel like this is actually about my W getting to spend time with her (especially because her visitation time is during that afternoon and evening), but more so about maintaining appearances and creating opportunities for her to interact with me.  By the time my daughter has gotten excited to see my W, it is already time for us to leave again, and that doesn’t “feel” like it is good for her (my daughter).

[kells76]

Hey grootyoda, thanks for the update.

Ugh... yes, we also had to deal with Sunday transition days and with the kids' mom and stepdad attending our very small church. I wouldn't wish that setup on anyone.

Just a few questions to get me reoriented to where you're at now:

She signed a temporary agreement giving me sole custody at the beginning of the divorce, with her having supervised visits on Sunday afternoons. Her visits don’t start until a few hours after services to give me time to get our daughter lunch and the supervisor time to either transport my daughter or meet with my W to come pick up. We do not communicate with one another aside from texting unless it is absolutely necessary due to her having a tendency to revise our conversations as a form of manipulation.

Is this an official legal document? I.e. filed with the court, spells out specific parenting times, etc?

And do you currently have a lawyer (or did you during the custody agreement process)?

1. What else should I be concerned about in terms of continuing to have shared social spaces with her?

Is anyone in leadership in your church aware of your custody and parenting time situation? If not, if it were me, I'd probably do a proactive "Hey, just want to give you a heads up about our situation, it's XYZ and I'm happy to share paperwork with you if you need it" type email. No blame, just a "hey, both parents are here and our child is here, so here is the legal framework we're working with, if you guys need documentation"

2. How should I go about addressing concerns about the filming thing? Is there a point at which I should go to someone about it, or is the “ignore it and deprive the fire of oxygen” approach probably sufficient?

I love my privacy, and I'd also feel violated by what she did. You know her best, so you can think about what all is going on in your life (legal stuff, etc), and decide if a "one and done" email with your L cc'ed could be worth it. Something like "Hi Ex; Just a heads up that I do not consent to you filming me or D at church. Thank you; grootyoda"

3. What should I do about these requests to see our daughter right after service? It doesn’t feel like this is actually about my W getting to spend time with her (especially because her visitation time is during that afternoon and evening), but more so about maintaining appearances and creating opportunities for her to interact with me.  By the time my daughter has gotten excited to see my W, it is already time for us to leave again, and that doesn’t “feel” like it is good for her (my daughter).

You have a custody agreement -- it's OK to stick with it. Something simple, like "Sorry, that doesn't work" or "thanks for asking, that doesn't work" is fine.

What's trickier is what you're noticing, which is the impact it has on your D.

Does your W try to get D "amped up" about seeing her, and then "get her sad" when she can't go with Mommy right away? Or is it more like I think I'm reading, where it's less about W manipulating D directly, and more about W making sure that other adults see her with D?

I think you may be able to use validation with your D to navigate this --

maybe in the car after church, having some kind of conversation like "you were happy to see Mommy at church, huh?" (if D's body language seemed happy), followed with "and you seem sad now, right?" (again, only if that is what's going on). A validating approach could be: "Lots of kids are happy when they see their mom and sad when they don't. How do you feel about getting to see Mommy after lunch?" That could normalize that sure, she was glad to see Mom, felt sad to see Mom go, and you are helping her remember that she is seeing Mom again soon.

Thoughts?

[kells76]

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'd probably at least consult with a L about the situation because --

if she is required to only see D while supervised (I'm assuming by a listed/approved supervisor), I'd want to be 110% certain that I was not "on the hook" if for some reason Mom got time alone with D at church (i.e. Mom takes a bathroom break while you're in Bible study and sneaks off to see D).

A lawyer reading your custody agreement should be able to sort that out.

[livednlearned]

It's one of those strange good/bad situations where it's obviously a sign that things are not well with her but at least she recognizes it and made that part of your life a bit less complicated.

Your wife seems to be in the *generally cooperative* range of BPD with a bit of *dangerous* thrown in because of her substance abuse problems.

Bill Eddy characterizes BPD as either:

generally cooperative, not dangerous
not cooperative, not dangerous
not cooperative, dangerous

He counts substance abuse as dangerous since it impairs thinking and leads to (often) terrible decisions and behaviors.

That puts you in an interesting place.

It's so sad what BPD does to people. Your wife seems very injured and lost, and having a dual diagnosis really makes the hill steeper that she has to climb.

Still, your daughter's well-being comes before your wife's. I'm not sure what I would do in your shoes, although I tend to find that the less-intense third-party conversation tends to go more smoothly. If I felt my son needed something, it seemed to be easier for my ex to hear it when it came from someone other than me. Do you feel comfortable talking to the people in the church who could speak directly to your wife?

I did that through most of the divorce transition, whether it was with family specialists at my son's schools, guidance counselors, teachers, principals, therapists, even other parents. I kept things simple and always made it about my son. I think people appreciate when you lay it out kind of plain and then describe the solution and what you're going for (smooth transitions for your kid, less public drama/conflict, etc.)

I agree it's weird and violating to have her film you. My guess is she's looking for a reaction and like you say, giving that fire oxygen might make it bigger. You know her best, what do your instincts say?

[ForeverDad]

Before my marriage imploded, my spouse got upset whenever I happened to be looking in the direction of a woman, much less a conversation.  So her sending the video without an explanation leaves me uncertain what that was about.  I suspect that manner of videoing would not be appreciated by management.

I do agree with the others that she may be trying to look like a better mother in front of acquaintances.

I'm a bit surprised that she was agreeable to supervised visitation.  There is a smaller subset of mothers who are more concerned with their adult lives and adult relationships than with parenting.  Does that fit her?

I would encourage you to not to change the current structured visits without legal input and perspective.  Many pwBPD resist boundaries and if you allow her to bend the rules a little, she may try to keep bending them.

Another reason not to loosen the arrangement now is that if a separation or divorce is not final then you might not be positioned as well later for custody and parenting.  Where are you in any legal processes?

An added question about visits.  Are they every Sunday?  Most courts set alternate weekend visits for the non-primary parent.  This allow opportunities for both parents to be free to travel on some weekends, with or without the children.  If this arrangement is every Sunday, how do you handle times you want to take your daughter out of town for a weekend?

[Notwendy]

I know this may not sound fair and may not be possible, but I'd feel very uncomfortable in this situation and that takes away from the purpose of why you are there- peace, fellowship, spirituality. It's not in line with the church's mission to ban people from attending unless they are a danger to others so you can't stop her from attending. I'd be considering looking at other choices, and not letting BPD ex know anything about where you are. I would need to feel this space was emotionally safe for me, and don't think it would feel that way for me.

[grootyoda]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses everyone. I’ve read through what you all posted and I’ll take some time to reply in more depth a little later when I am able to.

For now:

I’ve had a lawyer through the process and we did get the agreement filed and subsequently signed into a temporary order.

We do have a list of supervisors, but there are a few clauses in there that leave some leeway for “other agreed upon times”.

I’ve thought about contacting her directly about the filming thing and and asking her not to do that, but honesty I think that might be playing into the bid for attention.

Someone mentioned the “playing up excitement about seeing mommy and sadness about seeing mommy go” angle, and that is certainly something she does to some extent. It isn’t always a thing, but it does pop up semi-regularly and it concerns me a little bit that she’ll linger after saying goodbye if our D doesn’t immediately acknowledge and reciprocate. It tends to draw things out on that front.
 

[grootyoda]

I know this may not sound fair and may not be possible, but I'd feel very uncomfortable in this situation and that takes away from the purpose of why you are there- peace, fellowship, spirituality. It's not in line with the church's mission to ban people from attending unless they are a danger to others so you can't stop her from attending. I'd be considering looking at other choices, and not letting BPD ex know anything about where you are. I would need to feel this space was emotionally safe for me, and don't think it would feel that way for me.

I’ve wrestled with that extensively, even went somewhere else for a few weeks. At the end of the day, it’s not just me who needs a support system, it’s also my D, and she has that in spades at our church. I also have a number of people I know I can trust, including the church staff, who are aware of our custody situation and have taken steps to make sure it is upheld while we are there. At the end of the day it’s really just her and maybe a few other people (I believe the term is “flying monkeys”) who make things less than ideal, and realistically I don’t think there’s much they can do other than commiserate with one another. Admittedly, I might be overly optimistic there, hence the need to know what I should be concerned about that I’m not really considering.

[grootyoda]

Just a few questions to get me reoriented to where you're at now:

Is this an official legal document? I.e. filed with the court, spells out specific parenting times, etc?

And do you currently have a lawyer (or did you during the custody agreement process)?

Is anyone in leadership in your church aware of your custody and parenting time situation? If not, if it were me, I'd probably do a proactive "Hey, just want to give you a heads up about our situation, it's XYZ and I'm happy to share paperwork with you if you need it" type email. No blame, just a "hey, both parents are here and our child is here, so here is the legal framework we're working with, if you guys need documentation"

Yes, it was filed in agreement and signed into order by a judge before I started going back to church. The staff are fully aware of the custody situation, they have a copy and worked with me on making sure childcare is handled appropriately while we are there. I've talked a good bit about the situation to a pastor who is bound by confidentiality, and they've been good about making sure I know what all they can and can't do to make the situation work for all involved.

I love my privacy, and I'd also feel violated by what she did. You know her best, so you can think about what all is going on in your life (legal stuff, etc), and decide if a "one and done" email with your L cc'ed could be worth it. Something like "Hi Ex; Just a heads up that I do not consent to you filming me or D at church. Thank you; grootyoda"

You have a custody agreement -- it's OK to stick with it. Something simple, like "Sorry, that doesn't work" or "thanks for asking, that doesn't work" is fine.

What's trickier is what you're noticing, which is the impact it has on your D.

Does your W try to get D "amped up" about seeing her, and then "get her sad" when she can't go with Mommy right away? Or is it more like I think I'm reading, where it's less about W manipulating D directly, and more about W making sure that other adults see her with D?

I think you may be able to use validation with your D to navigate this --

maybe in the car after church, having some kind of conversation like "you were happy to see Mommy at church, huh?" (if D's body language seemed happy), followed with "and you seem sad now, right?" (again, only if that is what's going on). A validating approach could be: "Lots of kids are happy when they see their mom and sad when they don't. How do you feel about getting to see Mommy after lunch?" That could normalize that sure, she was glad to see Mom, felt sad to see Mom go, and you are helping her remember that she is seeing Mom again soon.

Thoughts?

So much good stuff in this response. I'm not sure I'm ready to send that email just yet, but I've made my attorney aware of the activity and I am more or less letting them guide me on what is or isn't warranted until this becomes a frequent occurence.

Regarding insisting on sticking to the agreement - I am still working on not feeling like a jerk every time I insist she stick to terms she agreed to, and yours is a good reminder. I also really appreciate the recommendations about validating D's feelings. I do a lot of asking her how she's feeling, but I could stand to use more "I'm noticing" statements. W definitely leans into the "amp up" side of things - she doesn't exactly try to make D sad about goodbyes, but she does draw out goodbyes a good bit and show her disappointment when D isn't reciprocating her goodbyes. It's not super over the top, but I'm aware of it as a recurring issue.

[grootyoda]

I'm a bit surprised that she was agreeable to supervised visitation.  There is a smaller subset of mothers who are more concerned with their adult lives and adult relationships than with parenting.  Does that fit her?

This certainly feels like it fits to me. I had a family member comment once that it felt like D was being treated more like an accessory than a person by W, and there's some truth to that. She's left watching D and other childcare tasks to her supervisor on multiple occasions while doing other things around the house and while out and about, which has been noted and sent to my attorney. She tends to spend a lot of time and energy taking photos with D and showing off the new things she's bought her, but then her interest usually wanes.

I would encourage you to not to change the current structured visits without legal input and perspective.  Many pwBPD resist boundaries and if you allow her to bend the rules a little, she may try to keep bending them.

Another reason not to loosen the arrangement now is that if a separation or divorce is not final then you might not be positioned as well later for custody and parenting.  Where are you in any legal processes?

Thanks for this. I've already been more flexible about certain things, like the timeliness of her notifying me that she has confirmed with a supervisor, than I'd like to be. When I've said no to some of her suggested alternate supervisors (virtually none of whom I would trust to be an honest observer), she's accused me of being a hostile dad and being unwilling to compromise with her.

In terms of where we are with the process... we've been trying to negotiate a settlement for over a month, and our trial date is still several months away. They mentioned mediation before they sent their last proposal and that is currently being discussed. She has not made any formal attempt to change the temporary agreement, and every time she mentions something about it to me I have informed her that we would be open to considering any proposal they would like to make on that front - so far there has never been any follow through.

An added question about visits.  Are they every Sunday?  Most courts set alternate weekend visits for the non-primary parent.  This allow opportunities for both parents to be free to travel on some weekends, with or without the children.  If this arrangement is every Sunday, how do you handle times you want to take your daughter out of town for a weekend?

They are every Sunday because we agreed to that concession as a condition for her signing. I don't love it because, as you say, it means I don't really get to travel on the weekends. I haven't attempted to go out of town yet, but she did miss a visit a few weeks ago to go on a weekend vacation, which I documented. Meanwhile, she has requested 50/50 custody in her settlement proposals.

[grootyoda]

It's one of those strange good/bad situations where it's obviously a sign that things are not well with her but at least she recognizes it and made that part of your life a bit less complicated.

Your wife seems to be in the *generally cooperative* range of BPD with a bit of *dangerous* thrown in because of her substance abuse problems.

Bill Eddy characterizes BPD as either:

generally cooperative, not dangerous
not cooperative, not dangerous
not cooperative, dangerous

He counts substance abuse as dangerous since it impairs thinking and leads to (often) terrible decisions and behaviors.

That puts you in an interesting place.

It's so sad what BPD does to people. Your wife seems very injured and lost, and having a dual diagnosis really makes the hill steeper that she has to climb.

Still, your daughter's well-being comes before your wife's. I'm not sure what I would do in your shoes, although I tend to find that the less-intense third-party conversation tends to go more smoothly. If I felt my son needed something, it seemed to be easier for my ex to hear it when it came from someone other than me. Do you feel comfortable talking to the people in the church who could speak directly to your wife?

I did that through most of the divorce transition, whether it was with family specialists at my son's schools, guidance counselors, teachers, principals, therapists, even other parents. I kept things simple and always made it about my son. I think people appreciate when you lay it out kind of plain and then describe the solution and what you're going for (smooth transitions for your kid, less public drama/conflict, etc.)

I agree it's weird and violating to have her film you. My guess is she's looking for a reaction and like you say, giving that fire oxygen might make it bigger. You know her best, what do your instincts say?

My instincts tell me to do everything I can not to give her anything resembling attention, document it for my attorney, and then keep going about my church-life as if it doesn't get to me.

In terms of having other people talk to her, I'm really hesitant to put anyone in our church family in the middle of this unless absolutely necessary. At best, she'll retaliate against me in another childish manner (I think the filming incident itself may have been a small retaliation for her being told to limit greeting times with D to a few designated areas).

[kells76]

In our experience, once the kids' mom and stepdad stopped receiving "big fish in a little pond" attention/accolades at our church, and once they found other social groups in which they could receive the admiration and elevation they desired, they stopped attending. It did take some time (years vs months), but it happened.

It's possible that your D's mom will also taper off with church attendance once it is no longer giving her what she wants (attention, an audience to view her in a certain role, etc). Similar to Notwendy's post, it could be a question of if you can and want to outwait her. Maybe once the settlement and trial are over, she may change things up? You know her best.

...

In terms of where we are with the process... we've been trying to negotiate a settlement for over a month, and our trial date is still several months away. They mentioned mediation before they sent their last proposal and that is currently being discussed. She has not made any formal attempt to change the temporary agreement, and every time she mentions something about it to me I have informed her that we would be open to considering any proposal they would like to make on that front - so far there has never been any follow through.

That sounds familiar. Good move to put the ball back in her court.

They are every Sunday because we agreed to that concession as a condition for her signing. I don't love it because, as you say, it means I don't really get to travel on the weekends. I haven't attempted to go out of town yet, but she did miss a visit a few weeks ago to go on a weekend vacation, which I documented. Meanwhile, she has requested 50/50 custody in her settlement proposals.

You may have a couple pieces of leverage here.

Like you and others have mentioned, it sounds like your D's mom is more interested in a certain appearance of motherhood, vs actual parenting. So, probably she's requesting 50/50 because it matches the image of motherhood that she wishes to portray (not only to others, but maybe also to herself), versus she actually wants the content of what that entails.

In your state, does custody mean both parenting time and legal custody? Or does custody mean only legal, and parenting time (physical custody) is separate?

Some members have been able to achieve higher priority goals by "reluctantly trading away" aspects of legal custody that sound important but for their situation really aren't. For example, one member's spouse was able to (as far as I recall) receive sole physical custody plus sole mental health, education, and doctor decision-making, by "reluctantly giving up" sole decisionmaking (i.e. "tiebreaker") on religious decisions, eye doctor, gynecological, and maybe one other area. For that member's spouse, the bigger issues were primary custody plus making sure the kids went to school and stayed in school, versus religious attendance/eye doctor.

In our situation, DH did give up every Christmas Day, every year, to Mom, along with every Halloween and July 4th, but got every Christmas Eve, every Thanksgiving Fri-Sun weekend, time around July 4th, etc. We are kind of happy with every Christmas Eve because it means the kids aren't all Christmassed out by the time they're with us, and we often celebrate way earlier, anyway.

So, you may be able to negotiate for EOW for her plus sole legal custody for you, if there are things that you think would be meaningful to her but not as high a priority for you. For example, if "photo worthy" holidays would be big for her, consider "letting" her have Halloween, New Year's, etc, if it means she no longer has every Sunday.

And/or, if she wants to be able to tell people "I have 50/50 custody", then make sure you have physical, psych, medical, and education, and she has vision, dental, gynecological, and religious. In a way, you both would have an equal number of tiebreaker areas, but you've already decided which ones are non-negotiable for you.

Though, all that being said, she may not "bring the fight" and even want to end up with 50/50. In negotiation, start big and work your way down -- DON'T start at where you want to end up!

Hope that helps for later;

kells76

[livednlearned]

My instincts tell me to do everything I can not to give her anything resembling attention, document it for my attorney, and then keep going about my church-life as if it doesn't get to me.

I would trust your instincts.

My BPD stepdaughter is similar. If I tell her I have a boundary about something, she seems to relish the knowledge that she got under my skin. My therapist calls it glee.

Interesting that your wife wants 50/50. I'm guessing your lawyer explained that these temporary orders have a tendency to become permanent? Courts prefer the parents to come to a decision about what works for the family. Even though it's temporary, it was done without being under the duress of a judge. Now it's status quo and your wife will have to demonstrate substantive reasons for why things are different, and why she no longer agrees with what she signed. It's a lesson many here learn the hard way but in your situation it's advantageous.

Another thing that worked in my case was to get my ex to demonstrate a willingness to increase visitation contingent on classes, drug testing, evaluation, etc.

Meaning, your L might say, "We are prepared to accept more visitation on the condition that mom takes parenting classes / undergoes psychiatric evaluation with a forensic psychiatrist trained in MMRI / enrolls in a 30 day outpatient drug clinic, etc.

Your wife isn't likely to do any of those things, but it puts responsibility for her desire to increase visitation squarely on her shoulders. Not on yours or the courts.

Her personality is different than my ex's but in our situation (giving my ex three tasks he had to complete in order to change visitation), he was incapable of following through. All that was standing between him and more time with our son was him. He was instructed to do three things and was too self-obstructing and self-destructing to do them. I have heard through the grapevine that he tells people I took our son away from him but the truth is he lost our son all by himself.

It's been almost 10 years since our custody battles ended so I'm far on the other side of what you're going through now. I always wondered what it would be like if I behaved like an adult earlier in my son's life. I thought I was protecting him but who was I kidding. Sometimes we have to make hard decisions when the status quo isn't working.

[grootyoda]

In your state, does custody mean both parenting time and legal custody? Or does custody mean only legal, and parenting time (physical custody) is separate?

It’s separate, and some of what you’ve said is along the lines of the approach we have used.

The thing I am concerned about in terms of the temporary custody order is that it was filed in agreement with a clause stating that the agreement will not “inure to the benefit of either party”. In theory I believe that means a judge is not to use it in their final judgment, but I have a hard time imagining any judge being able to overlook a situation where one parent has been successfully parenting on their own for at least six months (which it will have been by the time we would go to trial), and the other has not parented for more than an afternoon once a week, and even then has had supervision. There are a few other factors as well which I am hopeful will work in my favor:

I have a stable family support system who live nearby (she does not)
I have been working with the same employer for nearly a decade  with a consistent record of advancement (she has held eight different jobs in the past four years, two of which she was fired from, none of which she stayed at for even a year).
I have a demonstrably stable living situation (owned my home for almost a decade now, she’s on her second apartment since she moved out)

Of course, none of that may actually matter as much as I think it does in court, and that’s the part that makes me anxious.

[kells76]

It’s separate, and some of what you’ve said is along the lines of the approach we have used.

The thing I am concerned about in terms of the temporary custody order is that it was filed in agreement with a clause stating that the agreement will not “inure to the benefit of either party”. In theory I believe that means a judge is not to use it in their final judgment, but I have a hard time imagining any judge being able to overlook a situation where one parent has been successfully parenting on their own for at least six months (which it will have been by the time we would go to trial), and the other has not parented for more than an afternoon once a week, and even then has had supervision. There are a few other factors as well which I am hopeful will work in my favor:

I have a stable family support system who live nearby (she does not)
I have been working with the same employer for nearly a decade  with a consistent record of advancement (she has held eight different jobs in the past four years, two of which she was fired from, none of which she stayed at for even a year).
I have a demonstrably stable living situation (owned my home for almost a decade now, she’s on her second apartment since she moved out)

Of course, none of that may actually matter as much as I think it does in court, and that’s the part that makes me anxious.

Was the "will not inure to the benefit..." clause just boilerplate? Or was it specially added?

From what I've heard here, status quo does mean something, though other dads have been on the opposite side, of trying to fight uphill against bad temp orders. In your case, it's your D's mom who may have that uphill climb.

But like LnL said -- there can be a win-win solution that you can present (remember, show up to court as the practical problem-solving parent with solutions).

"Sure, as long as Mom completes A, B, and C, and stays consistent with attending D, it's fine for us to do a step-up parenting time schedule. Once Mom completes (with professional sign-off) A, B, and C, and has attended X sessions of D, then the schedule will pivot from the current schedule (Schedule #1) to Schedule #2, which I can show you here. If Mom stops attending D for more than one week (barring doctor-attested sickness), then the schedule reverts back to Schedule #1." Definitely include the "this is what happens if Mom stops complying after meeting the threshold" clause, otherwise, it's an expensive trip back to court, most likely.

Basically, show that you are open to Mom stepping up involvement in D's life, as long as she can do some normal-range stuff -- like LnL suggested, could be anger management, parenting classes, drug/alcohol testing, counseling, etc.

Don't hang your hopes on your extended family situation, employment, living situation, etc. I think I have read online that even a parent's homelessness cannot be used against that parent when deciding certain custody/parenting time questions. I think you're right to suspect that as good as it would be for a kid to have a stable extended family and housing situation, that will not be "make it or break it", as the courts, and perhaps rightly so, view a child's relationship with the parent as more important than where the parent lives (within reason -- sure, you can have safety clauses or no overnight partner clauses) or which family members a parent has nearby. Same with your vs her job, I wouldn't bank on it. Focusing on her living situation/Mom's extended family might not come off as a good look for you.

Instead, consider pivoting your focus to coming up with a guard-railed "step up plan" where if for some reason Mom can actually comply, you are OK with it -- i.e., you're not just building the plan "betting that she can't do it", but you're building it with your D's safety in mind, so that if Mom does get drug tested, and does the parenting classes, and has a counselor signing off on her attendance weekly, then yeah, you'd truly be okay with D spending more time with Mom. Show yourself as not the guy who "is better than" Mom (not saying you're doing that, at all!), but the guy who would actually love it if his D's mom were healthy and able to be involved in some way. I think that's what we all want, here -- that the disordered parent would get help and get healthy and parent in a better way.

[grootyoda]

Thanks, that’s really solid advice. To answer your question, her attorney asked for it and mine explained that no good attorney would allow an agreement to not have it.

In terms of the custody negotiation itself we’re including some clauses around the step up stuff that they seem more or less amenable to, so far. The sticking point seems to be this business of winding up at 50/50 vs standard visitation. I’m willing to work out a visitation schedule that ensures W and D get frequent quality time, but I cannot get to a place where I can see a 50/50 situation being a good situation for any of us. Like someone else said, I think the optics of having 50/50 probably mean as much or more to her than the reality of it. She needs a lot of novelty and spontaneity to feel satisfied, and gets difficult to be around when she can’t really get that need met.

One major concern is that having that much extended parenting time will increase the likelihood of her getting overwhelmed and acting out towards D. Her being unable to tolerate solo parenting for more than a few hours at a time has been an issue consistently over the last few years, and I am really concerned about what’s going to happen when she has to do it for more than a few nights on a consistent basis, especially without me there to be the target of her lashing out and/or parent our child while she checks out completely.

[livednlearned]

It's pretty unusual for a parent to give up time, especially a mom. At least here on these boards.

Her lawyer is probably wondering if this is someone who isn't a 50/50 candidate, but since it's her client and lawyers are ethically required to represent the client, they do.

What does the step-up plan look like? Is it just a standard step-up where you gradually get there?

Or does she have to do things in order to achieve small changes?

[grootyoda]

We started at a step up requiring random drug screenings and proof of compliance with her mental health treatment plan to progress from supervised to unsupervised visits, then to overnights, then to weekends, ending with a standard visitation schedule over the course of a year, fully expecting we’d have to come down.

They’ve accepted the screening and treatment compliance ask with small modifications, but want to skip a step up plan and go straight to 50/50. I’ve compromised at starting with standard visitation, and that’s as far as I’ve been willing to go.

[livednlearned]

Standard visitation, meaning not supervised?

What are the chances that she will follow through on the plan?

One thing I didn't like is feeling like I had to police my ex. He was able to hold down a job but he also had periods where he was non-functioning.

His problem is that he kept blowing things up and documenting his dysregulations. One was a full-blown psychotic episode.

Do you have something in your plan about co-habitation? That's another hard one to prove. 

[grootyoda]

Yes, we have a cohabitation clause prohibiting any sleepovers of a romantic nature while D is present, but as you say that is hard to prove.

The standard visitation would be unsupervised, and consists of an every other weekend (Friday evening - Monday morning) kind of deal. plus alternating holidays and longer periods in the summer once D starts school. It’s the norm here when one parent has physical custody, and I have some misgivings even with going this far this quickly, but I can live with it because I’ll still be in a good position to provide stability and consistency throughout the week.

In terms of sticking to a plan, that’s an interesting question. She’s really good at “playing normal” when she wants to, as well as being “selectively vulnerable” with therapists, so I can see her technically complying with mental health treatment without actually addressing her issues. She’s also really good at hiding her substance use issues - until she’s not. I could really see this going either way, and even if she technically follows her plan and passes her screens, I’m going to have some doubts about her doing it “honestly”. Sounds neurotic, but when you live with BPD and addiction for years you eventually learn all the tricks. I’ve been working on making my peace with the fact that I’m never *really* going to know what’s going on with her, but it’s much more difficult when there are children involved.

Question - when you say “documenting his dysregulation”, what do you mean?I feel like I am documenting a lot (like the whole filming incident), and so far I kinda feel like I’m doing it just to feel like I’m doing something. I mean, is a judge really going to care that W skipped one of her visits to go play and sent me a weird film she took of me during her vacation. Sure, it’s immature, but what things actually matter enough for me to bother documenting and bringing to my attorney?

[ForeverDad]

It's doubtful that a judge would view missing one visit with a child negatively.  (That's why I previously posted that courts have found alternating weekends in some form with a weekend off is usually practical.)

Apparently the purpose for supervised is due to past (1) drug use but more so (2) her rages or yelling at the child after just a few hours.  Obviously 50/50 in everything (custodial responsibility and parenting time) is impractical.  How would she document that she has improved?

What are your plans regarding vacations (time away with the children)?  My county's boilerplate clause lists up to three weeks per calendar year with proper notice, but no more than two weeks at a time.

[grootyoda]

The typical vacation arrangement for the non-custodial parent here is two separate two week periods during the summer break, with sufficient notice given to the custodial parent about which weeks they will be selecting. Besides that, the typical arrangement is to alternate the week of spring break and thanksgiving break (each parent gets one or the other on alternating years) and split the holiday school break in half.

My lawyer is putting a lot of focus on the impracticality of true 50/50. In her opinion, it makes the school week worse for everyone involved.

[livednlearned]

There are different ways to document.

My ex liked to get loaded, had a few psychotic breaks, and documented his behaviors by sending excessive texts, emails. Leaving slurry voice mails. Terrifying at the time and in retrospect quite helpful.

You can document by getting third-party professionals involved, like a forensic psychiatrist who administers MMPI or a custody evaluator (expensive, but for some people here, essential).

Depositions are a form of documentation. Lawyers seem to like this to see how their clients will do in court.

And of course, we document things.

Like who went to doctor's appointments. Who goes to pediatrician appointments. Who attends school events.

I logged things in a special Google calendar. When I needed it, I printed it out in Agenda view to see things in a neat chronological order. For example, you might enter for day/date: "Ex was asked to not impede entrance/exit to preschool room at church."

It helps you see patterns and can unnerve the other lawyer. It helped me count things and create percentages. I had excellent recall for dates because of it (which I don't normally do) and the order in which events happened.

For example, my ex asked for more visitation while not taking the time he had. I was able to show that of the time he was supposed to have our son, he used slightly more than 50 percent.

You document so your lawyer can tell a story, and because you'll be the only person who has that knowledge and knows what it means.

My lawyer walked into our deposition with two large 3-ring binders filled with emails I had meticulously filed and categorized and labeled. She didn't need the binder, only three or four emails as examples, but having the binders served as a prop and signaled to the other lawyer that he might want to rethink going to trial and just settle.  

His lawyer ended up counseling my ex to work with the schedule we had and get a routine going. But it's hard to have BPD and follow a routine.

What you're trying to do is make sense of patterns and tell a story with that information. Your ex may start to show a pattern that helps everyone see how much she's struggling. I don't think people who are lit up during the day function well with a young child, or any child for that matter.

I had a pretty horrendous child custody battle that went on for 4 years and learned a lot how things worked where I live. I know it's hard to be in the position you are, but remember that your lawyer works for you.

The two lawyers involved may have other cases where they're representing other clients, and they're wheeling and dealing in the spirit of professional courtesy. "I'll cut you this on that if you give me such and such on the Whozit case."

Many lawyers do that.

If you do not think it's wise to let your drug-addicted wife take care of your 2-year-old on a 50/50 schedule, make sure your lawyer is looking you in the eye and saying this is a great plan, let's do it.

If you still have time to negotiate and feel pressured into something because you get four gold stars for being the nice guy, well. You know how that story ends. A lot of us here know that story well.

Apologies if this comes across as cynical. No one is going to care about your kid as much as you. I know there are good lawyers out there. Mine was one of them. Yours may be trying to keep you out of court to avoid the expense and strain, and that's a good lawyer.

But these are our kids. This is our lives. It's only a job to them. They get to go home to their families and wonder if they did a good job that day whereas we have to live with the outcomes of those decisions.

I started out with 60/40 and knew in my gut that it wasn't safe for our son, who was 9 at the time. There was not much I could do, and there may not much you can do.

If there's a voice in your head wondering about 50/50 and need a sounding board, this is that board. We aren't lawyers and can't give advice but we can share things we learned about working with lawyers and hopefully there's something in there that makes a difference in your case.

[grootyoda]

Thanks, I’m kind of in awe of how thorough you were able to be. I thought I was being OCD by snapshotting all our texts and putting them in my notes, but you’ve given me some good ideas of how to get more organized about it.

My gut definitely tells me 50/50 wouldn’t be great, although I don’t think it would necessarily be as bad as some stories I’ve heard. I know W wants to be a good parent and help D grow up as well as she can, but the emotional dysregulation, self-medicating, and impulsivity all give me pause. It’s almost harder because she is relatively high functioning for someone with BPD, but there are just enough incidents of her behavior getting concerning to know I can’t really trust her to maintain, if that makes sense. Our marriage counselor said it best “she’s really good until she’s not, and when she’s not she’s really not”.

[ForeverDad]

If you still have time to negotiate and feel pressured into something because you get four gold stars for being the nice guy, well. You know how that story ends. A lot of us here know that story well.

Often people arrive here and ask, "How was it me who married this messed up person?  Why not someone else?"

Because you were the "Nice Guy" or the "Nice Gal".  Sadly, in the cases we see here in problematic divorce cases involving acting-out PDs (harming others), you can't risk being a Nice Guy or a Nice Gal.  Too much is at stake, not just your own future but even moreso the futures of your little ones.

While our compassion, reasonableness, caring and other qualities are wonderful in other scenarios, those same admirable qualities can literally sabotage us when unwinding a marriage or relationship of this sort.

During the separation, divorce and even afterward we have to scrutinize our feelings and ask ourselves, "Am I trying to be too nice or too fair, is it a detriment to myself or to my children?  Am I sabotaging my self?"

Of course we would never be mean or nasty, but beware of tilting too far the other way and regret it in the years to come.

[grootyoda]

Thank you, I think that is exactly the kind of encouragement I needed.

[grootyoda]

Update -

Things took a turn today in terms of escalation. I got an email from BPDw stating that because the settlement terms I’ve offered for custody and finances were not what they wanted, they were moving ahead with pursuing a domestic violence report and potential additional legal action to that affect. She claims she has realized after discussing with multiple people, including our marriage counselor, my first wife, and others, that she has been experiencing abuse from me for years. She claims to have audio and video evidence as well.

I spoke to the ex about it to find out if they had actually met, which she confirmed. For the record, that relationship ended amicably and we both agreed we parted on good terms. It sounds like she agreed that a lot of things in any long term relationship could technically be construed as violence, but stopped pretty short of endorsing BPDw’s claims.

I also forwarded the email to my attorney, and she thought it was odd that she was announcing these actions to me directly without copying her own attorney, and that it was generally problematic to take such actions in response to the settlement proposal. She doesn’t think that BPDw’s attorney would be on board with what she communicated to me, and people who have actually suffered abuse are advised not to give their abuser a heads up that they are taking the kinds of actions BPDw claims she is taking. She doesn’t think I should be too concerned, that this is essentially an attempt to intimidate me. However, she does think this is probably a good point to insist that future communication between us go through our attorneys.

Meanwhile, I’m stressed out to an extent I haven’t been since I first filed for divorce. I do not think I’ve done anything that would justify what she’s claiming, but of course at this point I’ve been turned around so much that part of me thinks “if she’s saying it, it must be true”.

Besides simply following my attorney’s advice to document the email and let things play out, what should I do here? Is there anything I should tell my attorney we need to be doing right now? Between this latest thing and the behaviors I’ve mentioned earlier in this post (filming me, pressing boundaries on our existing agreements, insisting I am refusing to compromise, etc) I feel like I’m being emotionally and psychologically tortured here, with no clear end in sight.

[ForeverDad]

Things took a turn today in terms of escalation. I got an email from BPDw stating that because the settlement terms I’ve offered for custody and finances were not what they wanted, they were moving ahead with pursuing a domestic violence report and potential additional legal action to that affect. She claims she has realized after discussing with multiple people, including our marriage counselor, my first wife, and others, that she has been experiencing abuse from me for years. She claims to have audio and video evidence as well.

Sounds like she believes making threats will get her a bigger settlement?  Save any documents (emails, texts, recordings etc) in your favor in case you have to (1) defend yourself against unfounded allegations or (2) prove she's threatening abuse while also saying she doesn't like the proposed settlement.  The two do not mix.  That she has linked wanting a better settlement offer to abuse allegations is a big no-no.  Abuse is abuse and it is wrong to use it as leverage for a better offer.

It is her perceptions of abuse now that you two are apart.  I often say not to apologize for such allegations.  At most, you can say you're sorry for her "feeling" that way.  I've never heard of anyone getting legally guilty for hurting someone's feelings.

Don't blab this to her, but in my court they wouldn't even let me list incidents of my then-separated spouse's poor behaviors unless it was within 6 months prior to the date we filed court papers.  Anything older was considered legally "stale".  Your court system may be similar.  Your lawyer should be aware.  Repeat, don't correct her.  If she does file, then most of it will either be too old on its face or too vague.  "He always..." or "she always..." is typically considered hearsay that is too vague and without supporting documentation.

[grootyoda]

Thanks for the response, I always appreciate your calm and direct guidance.

I feel like I have been doing a pretty good job documenting. I save every single text we exchange, keep a daily log of our communication and events with accompanying snapshots/media of what was communicated, and send anything of particular note (which is admittedly most of it these days, since I’m skeptical about what the intent is behind anything she sends anymore) to my attorney as an FYI and/or review before I respond. I guess at this point it’s starting to feel like we’re passively sitting back while she is playing the aggressor, and I’m just wondering when things are going to get to the place where we can actually act on anything and move things towards a resolution.

[kells76]

So she's saying you were abusive in the past.

But not now? While you have essentially full custody of your child?

If she's so concerned about it, why isn't she concerned about her own child's safety? "Grootyoda was an abuser! But I'm cool with him being primary parent."

I'm with FD -- it's threats because she's upset. She hasn't thought this through.

110% focus on your kiddo. Don't let her derail you. You're doing great documenting.

Not sure if this has legs, but ask your L if her total focus on herself, with no apparent concern for your kid in these allegations, helps you out at all -- "While Ms ExGrootyoda spends her time relitigating the past only as it related to herself, Mr Grootyoda spends his time focused on their child's current safety. We encourage Ms ExGrootyoda to utilize this break in her parenting time to seek effective counseling for working through her feelings about the long-gone past."