II. Giving her space (Christian discussion)

[Depression = 72% of members]

On your current trajectory ("your" meaning the two of you), it sounds like you have irreconcilable differences.

I disagree the behaviour does not match the actions its like being married for 4 years and 1 day your partner makes your coffee wrong and then you go home to your parents and block your partner permanently its ridiculous and childish.

I know this is hard, but I can guarantee you that this is not her perspective on what happened. And you really have no way of resolving this without fully understanding her perspective. And that requires setting your narrative aside (temporarily), and trying to understand hers.

It's not that hers is correct and yours is wrong (or vice versa), it's that there will be no meaningful communication until you do this- until she feels heard and understood. This would be true for a perfectly healthy women. It is true for someone with BPD traits. It is true for Nicole Kidman and Keith Urban.  

You said earlier that she was depressed and unhappy during the 10 months you lived together. Why was she depressed? What was troubling her?  What was the core issue?  What was just noise (e.g., the coffee).

It's bit late to have "evolving" beliefs after years of preaching 1 way and making promises and commitments to later on just go against everything you've stood for...

People are ever evolving. Life is a moving target. Don't be frozen in "yesterday". She evolved when she moved in with you for 10 months (that was a significant life changing experience to move to another country and live with a man). She evolved when she moved out (that is also a significant life changing experience to leave her husband and go home in distress). She has certainly been evolving over the last six months in her discussions with her therapist and family and friends - all who are comforting her, holding her hand, listening to her (especially the therapist) and trying to help sort her life that is in disarray (whether it;s her fault or she's a victim). They are giving her "acceptance".

Your actions over the last six months been the less than "acceptance". I get why you feel the way you do. It's not at all unusual. Our resentments are often justified, but they rarely help us. It's hard to let them go... but good for us when we do.

Where do you think feels more safe, heard, accepted?

If you want any chance of reconciling, you have to meet her where she is and at least try to resolve what it is that caused her to leave.

I don't exactly understand what your asking of me ? or what you expect me to do differently ?

Everyone posting here has been trying to help you answer your original question...

.	"Wondering where i go from here"

I just read through this entire thread. There is some really good advice here. It might be worth a re-read.

You are in a hard place.  You are sending her the message (directly and indirectly) and you are hoping that she (and her family, friends, therapist) will see the light - that she wronged you, that she caused of 60%-70% of issues that she was depressed about, that she has an obligation to return to live with you and submit to you as her husband, and she needs to go into treatment. You don't see any evidence of agreement with this or think it is even likely. But this feels safe to you on one hand and at the same time terrifies you that she might sleep with someone else.

• You don't seem to be open to do what has been suggested to at least try to open the lines of communication.
• Conversely, you don't seem ready to consider that the divide in your relationship may be significant enough to let it go and move on.

And maybe you are right. Nothing you say or do will impact the outcome - its all in her hands. But then again, you are trying really hard to communicate with her.

I hope you continue to work here to find an answer. You are asking the right question. These things are complicated,

I think it would be helpful for you to work with other members who are struggling with their relationships here. The idea of a peer support group is that we help each other and we learn and grow in the process.

[Skip]

On your current trajectory ("your" meaning the two of you), it sounds like you have irreconcilable differences.

I disagree the behaviour does not match the actions its like being married for 4 years and 1 day your partner makes your coffee wrong and then you go home to your parents and block your partner permanently its ridiculous and childish.

I know this is hard, but I can guarantee you that this is not her perspective on what happened. And you really have no way of resolving this without fully understanding her perspective. And that requires setting your narrative aside (temporarily), and trying to understand hers.

It's not that hers is correct and yours is wrong (or vice versa), it's that there will be no meaningful communication until you do this- until she feels heard and understood. This would be true for a perfectly healthy women. It is true for someone with BPD traits. It is true for Nicole Kidman and Keith Urban.  

You said earlier that she was depressed and unhappy during the 10 months you lived together. Why was she depressed? What was troubling her?  What was the core issue?  What was just noise (e.g., the coffee).

It's bit late to have "evolving" beliefs after years of preaching 1 way and making promises and commitments to later on just go against everything you've stood for...

People are ever evolving. Life is a moving target. Don't be frozen in "yesterday". She evolved when she moved in with you for 10 months (that was a significant life changing experience to move to another country and live with a man). She evolved when she moved out (that is also a significant life changing experience to leave her husband and go home in distress). She has certainly been evolving over the last six months in her discussions with her therapist and family and friends - all who are comforting her, holding her hand, listening to her (especially the therapist) and trying to help sort her life that is in disarray (whether it;s her fault or she's a victim). They are giving her "acceptance".

Your actions over the last six months been the less than "acceptance". I get why you feel the way you do. It's not at all unusual. Our resentments are often justified, but they rarely help us. It's hard to let them go... but good for us when we do.

Where do you think feels more safe, heard, accepted?

If you want any chance of reconciling, you have to meet her where she is and at least try to resolve what it is that caused her to leave.

I don't exactly understand what your asking of me ? or what you expect me to do differently ?

Everyone posting here has been trying to help you answer your original question...

.	"Wondering where i go from here"

I just read through this entire thread. There is some really good advice here. It might be worth a re-read.

You are in a hard place.  You are sending her the message (directly and indirectly) and you are hoping that she (and her family, friends, therapist) will see the light - that she wronged you, that she caused of 60%-70% of issues that she was depressed about, that she has an obligation to return to live with you and submit to you as her husband, and she needs to go into treatment. You don't see any evidence of agreement with this or think it is even likely. But this feels safe to you on one hand and at the same time terrifies you that she might sleep with someone else.

• You don't seem to be open to do what has been suggested to at least try to open the lines of communication.
• Conversely, you don't seem ready to consider that the divide in your relationship may be significant enough to let it go and move on.

And maybe you are right. Nothing you say or do will impact the outcome - its all in her hands. But then again, you are trying really hard to communicate with her.

I hope you continue to work here to find an answer. You are asking the right question. These things are complicated,

I think it would be helpful for you to work with other members who are struggling with their relationships here. The idea of a peer support group is that we help each other and we learn and grow in the process.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[understandBPD]

ou said earlier that she was depressed and unhappy during the 10 months you lived together. Why was she depressed? What was troubling her?  What was the core issue?

She had depression , unhappiness , anxiety , suicidal thoughts etc since childhood before she met me , after we met and she was living at home (would complain about living at home and about her mother and says she would cry and be treated like a servant there) , she was happy when we were together in her country 95% of the time and after she came to mine after a week or 2 of the novelty wearing off she was depressed and unhappy lost etc

She had all of these problems before during and after being here she told her parents the same story that she told me about living with them why was she so depressed ? Because that's what her lifes been and in turn it made it harder for me which made me more depressed (i withdrew to playing video games which is was my go to coping mechanism) she then used that as the "issue" of why she's unhappy.

But even when i pushed through and asked her to go out or come to the gym and workout with me she would just want to lay in bed and do nothing or sleep and when my mother would ask her to do things or help her a lot of the time she was the same (My mothers observation was she was clearly struggling at no fault of my own). We live with my mother and this was discussed before marriage and my wife was completely onboard with this i didn't want to leave her alone since my father passed away when i young and my wife supported this so that is not part of the issue or if it is now too bad because it was discussed openly and honestly prior to any commitment.

The truth is we were both just struggling with depression i withdrew to games she withdrew to crying and wanting to escape she tried to distract herself with a job which i told her i didn't want her to do but "allowed" it because it was something she was passionate about but this wasn't part of the plan/agreement the agreement was she would persue her interests until she came here then we would start a family and she would stay home and not work.

I didn't pressure or rush into having a child because i could see she was struggling and i was too and it was not a good time period to start this but then she spent 95% of her time focused on her "career" to distract herself but she was even more miserable crying complaining about being tired and asking me to basically be her taxi everywhere which i declined i knew she would struggling working here in a new country and she wasn't in any mindset to do it but she wouldn't listen to me.

She would cry for no reason i would go in try to comfort her talk to her she would tell me to go away i would persist and keep trying to comfort her eventually i would go and then she told her parents that i would leave her in the room crying alone and not care while playing video games its absolutely mind blowing. I have never left her to cry unattended and have always tried to cheer her up and bring her food and drinks buy her favourite things etc suprise her with little gifts on my way back from the gym.

all of that went out the window when she went home and i was just this ruthless savage man who treated her like a slave and left her to cry and did not care its like a totally different world she was living in and to be honest i started to fall into that world thinking i was horrible if it wasn't for my mother who witnessed a majority of this and me trying to help her and comfort her i may of potentially accepted that false reality.

I think personally either she had some kind of regret about marriage or with me or she could never fully 100% commit or she always had that idea in the back of her mind if this does not work out i can run away like i do with all my other issues and just block them out. So rather than accepting the situation she was in and saying ok this is my life now and i need to work on a fix or stay like this her problem solving was "he is the problem and i can go back to my fathers" so why would she ever feel the need to fix anything ?

We just kept feeding into each other over noise fights and minor issues this is why its so difficult for me to accept my marriage may potentially be over we legitimately didn't have any huge unfixable fights there isn't anything we couldn't discuss and agree on or work through yet her behaviour towards me is more like i've been unfaithful cheated on her multiple times and bashed her for 10 months constantly and now shes finally gone she can never return its crazy.

Where do you think feels more safe, heard, accepted?

The place where she can lie and do whatever she wants and not be held accountable and anytime someone does something she don't like she just blocks them out.

Can't really compete with that and its not much of a marriage / life to allow my wife to behave that way in our marriage ?

If you want any chance of reconciling, you have to meet her where she is and at least try to resolve what it is that caused her to leave.

I've asked her multiple times if she could help me to understand her perspective and everything she went through. I've asked her if she could tell me the reasons why she left she couldn't tell me anything the only time she did suggest things seemed more like a list of unrealistic demands followed by a maybe and it was along the lines of

I need to basically change my entire life
I need to get a good job with good money
I need to go to therapy for minimum 1 year
I need to move out rent my own place alone for the forseeable future

Then she said "maybe" we could talk mind you there was no mention of her changes no mention of any kind of promise or commitment if i was to do any of this so to me that seems like a list of unrealistic things just to kinda say well u didn't do what i said.

I've changed my life style a lot
I've always had a decent income and never had financial issues providing for her ever
I've seen a therapist a few times but he feels its a waste of time unless we can include her in the therapy and that the issues lay more with her than with me

I'm not going to move out but i told her if she was to come home and tell me any issues if there are any involving my mother i would address them and if they couldn't be addressed i would consider moving out because she is always going to be a priority over my mother and i've made that clear to her. But i believe since i told her about this living situation before marriage and she agreed and from a financial perspective its much better this way and her saying she loves my mother and my mother always spoiling her and never giving her a hard time about anything this is a non issue if she was to bring it up.

I have been flexible i've asked to open communication so many times its only recently i started to be more demanding at the start i was basically a doormat saying id do anything if you give me a chance and talk to me that didn't work either. She knows i want this to work and i am a very fair and loving man and she's just taking advantage of that.

You don't seem to be open to do what has been suggested to at least try to open the lines of communication.

I've read through the thread but i can't see anything that allows me to open the line of communication with her could you explain ?

I am here because i want help i want to become a better husband and have a successful and happy marriage and i do believe my wife has some serious issues that make the logical approach difficult and nothing i've done works so it would be crazy to assume i know what im doing when i have 6 months of no results.

I am all ears into suggestions on what needs to happen on my side to open communication and be able to work through these issues with her.

[Notwendy]

She had depression , unhappiness , anxiety , suicidal thoughts etc since childhood before she met me , after we met and she was living at home (would complain about living at home and about her mother and says she would cry and be treated like a servant there) , she was happy when we were together in her country 95% of the time and after she came to mine after a week or 2 of the novelty wearing off she was depressed and unhappy lost etc

She had all of these problems before during and after being here she told her parents the same story that she told me about living with them why was she so depressed ? Because that's what her lifes been and in turn it made it harder for me which made me more depressed (i withdrew to playing video games which is was my go to coping mechanism) she then used that as the "issue" of why she's unhappy.

But even when i pushed through and asked her to go out or come to the gym and workout with me she would just want to lay in bed and do nothing or sleep and when my mother would ask her to do things or help her a lot of the time she was the same (My mothers observation was she was clearly struggling at no fault of my own). We live with my mother and this was discussed before marriage and my wife was completely onboard with this i didn't want to leave her alone since my father passed away when i young and my wife supported this so that is not part of the issue or if it is now too bad because it was discussed openly and honestly prior to any commitment.

The truth is we were both just struggling with depression i withdrew to games she withdrew to crying and wanting to escape she tried to distract herself with a job which i told her i didn't want her to do but "allowed" it because it was something she was passionate about but this wasn't part of the plan/agreement the agreement was she would persue her interests until she came here then we would start a family and she would stay home and not work.

I didn't pressure or rush into having a child because i could see she was struggling and i was too and it was not a good time period to start this but then she spent 95% of her time focused on her "career" to distract herself but she was even more miserable crying complaining about being tired and asking me to basically be her taxi everywhere which i declined i knew she would struggling working here in a new country and she wasn't in any mindset to do it but she wouldn't listen to me.

She would cry for no reason i would go in try to comfort her talk to her she would tell me to go away i would persist and keep trying to comfort her eventually i would go and then she told her parents that i would leave her in the room crying alone and not care while playing video games its absolutely mind blowing. I have never left her to cry unattended and have always tried to cheer her up and bring her food and drinks buy her favourite things etc suprise her with little gifts on my way back from the gym.

all of that went out the window when she went home and i was just this ruthless savage man who treated her like a slave and left her to cry and did not care its like a totally different world she was living in and to be honest i started to fall into that world thinking i was horrible if it wasn't for my mother who witnessed a majority of this and me trying to help her and comfort her i may of potentially accepted that false reality.

I think personally either she had some kind of regret about marriage or with me or she could never fully 100% commit or she always had that idea in the back of her mind if this does not work out i can run away like i do with all my other issues and just block them out. So rather than accepting the situation she was in and saying ok this is my life now and i need to work on a fix or stay like this her problem solving was "he is the problem and i can go back to my fathers" so why would she ever feel the need to fix anything ?

We just kept feeding into each other over noise fights and minor issues this is why its so difficult for me to accept my marriage may potentially be over we legitimately didn't have any huge unfixable fights there isn't anything we couldn't discuss and agree on or work through yet her behaviour towards me is more like i've been unfaithful cheated on her multiple times and bashed her for 10 months constantly and now shes finally gone she can never return its crazy.

The place where she can lie and do whatever she wants and not be held accountable and anytime someone does something she don't like she just blocks them out.

Can't really compete with that and its not much of a marriage / life to allow my wife to behave that way in our marriage ?

I've asked her multiple times if she could help me to understand her perspective and everything she went through. I've asked her if she could tell me the reasons why she left she couldn't tell me anything the only time she did suggest things seemed more like a list of unrealistic demands followed by a maybe and it was along the lines of

I need to basically change my entire life
I need to get a good job with good money
I need to go to therapy for minimum 1 year
I need to move out rent my own place alone for the forseeable future

Then she said "maybe" we could talk mind you there was no mention of her changes no mention of any kind of promise or commitment if i was to do any of this so to me that seems like a list of unrealistic things just to kinda say well u didn't do what i said.

I've changed my life style a lot
I've always had a decent income and never had financial issues providing for her ever
I've seen a therapist a few times but he feels its a waste of time unless we can include her in the therapy and that the issues lay more with her than with me

I'm not going to move out but i told her if she was to come home and tell me any issues if there are any involving my mother i would address them and if they couldn't be addressed i would consider moving out because she is always going to be a priority over my mother and i've made that clear to her. But i believe since i told her about this living situation before marriage and she agreed and from a financial perspective its much better this way and her saying she loves my mother and my mother always spoiling her and never giving her a hard time about anything this is a non issue if she was to bring it up.

I have been flexible i've asked to open communication so many times its only recently i started to be more demanding at the start i was basically a doormat saying id do anything if you give me a chance and talk to me that didn't work either. She knows i want this to work and i am a very fair and loving man and she's just taking advantage of that.

I've read through the thread but i can't see anything that allows me to open the line of communication with her could you explain ?

I am here because i want help i want to become a better husband and have a successful and happy marriage and i do believe my wife has some serious issues that make the logical approach difficult and nothing i've done works so it would be crazy to assume i know what im doing when i have 6 months of no results.

I am all ears into suggestions on what needs to happen on my side to open communication and be able to work through these issues with her.

I can't "diagnose" your wife or say for certain that she has BPD but it seems she has some kind of mental illness- depression.  If she's mentally ill, her lying around isn't something allowed or not allowed. It's a part of the disorder. She sounds like she is struggling.

You do sound like you have tried but if she has a mental illness and her thinking is distorted, then this isn't treatable with advice to be a better person or a program for "disobedient wives". She's not disobedient, she's mentally ill.

I have a mother with BPD who acts a lot like your wife. She's unhappy and isn't capable of doing much. She doesn't see herself as a problem, blames everyone else. It is sad that her unhappiness makes it hard to appreciate the efforts of those who care about her but it does.

[understandBPD]

If she's mentally ill, her lying around isn't something allowed or not allowed.

I understand that because i've experienced it myself which is why i never forced her to do anything or to get up when she didn't feel like it never made her cook or do anything when she didn't want to and if she didn't want to go the gym i didn't force her i was pretty easy going all i asked was for the same treatment in return.

You do sound like you have tried but if she has a mental illness and her thinking is distorted, then this isn't treatable with advice to be a better person or a program for "disobedient wives". She's not disobedient, she's mentally ill.

I have worked with her slowly through a range of health issues eating disorder , panic attacks , hormone problems etc and always been very caring and understanding the reason why i keep talking about myself as well is i know i am not perfect but none of us are including my wife but she's made me feel like i am a complete failure and terrible person so its hard to shake off.

She at least acknowledged she has issues and it was her decision not mine to go to a therapist so i believe there's hope for her. I just really hope she's told the therapist the truth and not just her story to get support for a divorce.

I have faith even now that things will be okay i know she trully believes in God and is saved and i know she has a good heart she is just lost i don't blame her for any of this and would forgive her for everything and welcome her with arms wide open at any point as long as she stays faithful she will have me.

[Fian]

Giving a Christian perspective on this.

I will do whatever it takes to fix my marriage as long as it does not involve destroying my dignity and self respect and accepting being a doormat. I will not allow my wife to dictate or control any aspect of our marriage its not her role and its not the type of person i am and she knows that and perhaps that is why she initially chose me but if it come down to either sacrificing my dignity , self respect and letting her run the marriage or staying seperated ill stay seperated for the rest of my life because once a man surrenders to a woman he has no value and she knows this.

This is a pride response.  Proverbs 16:18 says, "Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall."  This pride is destroying your marriage.  You know what is godly?  Humility.  Humble yourself before your wife.  Matthew 5:39 says, "But I say to you, do not resist him who is evil, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also."  Until you are prepared to follow this verse, don't expect your wife to follow the Bible's verses about submitting to the husband's authority.  To be honest, when she doesn't live up to her wifely responsibilities, that is mainly between her and God.  Don't quote the Bible when it benefits you.  Quote the Bible to yourself and be diligent to follow it in your life instead.

Speaking about husband's authority, you don't seem to understand leadership well.  Matthew 20:25-28 says, "But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, 'You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.  It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant.  and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.'"

Even one of the wife submission passages, Ephesians 5:25, says, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself up for her."  I believe you need to turn the other cheek, and now consider your response, outside of your hurt pride.  What is the best response that will move the marriage forward?

Some other items. 

• "When a man surrenders to a woman, he has no value."  This is not Biblical.  You have value in Christ whether you surrender to a woman or not.  In fact, women have a very different way of looking at the world, and wise is the man who listens to his wife.  Not all good ideas come from the leader.  A wise leader will recognize a good idea, whatever its source.  The second part of 1 Peter 3:7 says, "and grant her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered."  Both husband and wife are equal in that they have been given life by God and created in God's image.  A husband should not view his wife's thoughts and feelings as worthless.
• Divorce was legal in the Old Testament, and you could argue that it was no fault.  The man just had to give his wife a certificate of divorce.

Last thing I would like to encourage you to do is to read the book of Hosea.  It is not an exact match to your situation, as Hosea married a prostitute, however you do see how he handled her leaving him.

[understandBPD]

Giving a Christian perspective on this.

Your handpicking verses to suit your understanding of christianity not what me and my wife's understanding of it are/were.

This is a pride response.

It's not pride you don't really know what i've gone through since i met her and the amount of obstacles and difficulties i've faced in my life ontop of all of this. This is me saying enough is enough.

consider your response, outside of your hurt pride.  What is the best response that will move the marriage forward?

There is no hurt pride i've been disrespected and stonewalled for 6 months and despite all of that have still tried to not resent her and show patient and understanding what you don't seem to understand is her behaviour is outside of my control nothing i do or say makes any difference until she figures things out herself. If this wasn't the case she would of responded to 1 of the many attempts ive made to communicate with her and compromise.

"When a man surrenders to a woman, he has no value."  This is not Biblical.  You have value in Christ whether you surrender to a woman or not.  In fact, women have a very different way of looking at the world, and wise is the man who listens to his wife.  Not all good ideas come from the leader.  A wise leader will recognize a good idea, whatever its source.  The second part of 1 Peter 3:7 says, "and grant her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered."  Both husband and wife are equal in that they have been given life by God and created in God's image.  A husband should not view his wife's thoughts and feelings as worthless.

God put man in authority because women are easily deceived and mislead and Adam listening to eve is what brought on the fall of mankind. Women should never be in a position of authority or in control or leaderships roles especially within in a marriage.

Divorce was legal in the Old Testament, and you could argue that it was no fault.  The man just had to give his wife a certificate of divorce.

The only permittable reason for divorce was for "fornication" which was basically if a man married a woman then found out she wasnt a virgin he could divorce her. When Jesus explained to the pharisee's about divorce he said it wasn't so from the beginning as in it was never Gods intention for a man and woman to divorce that's why there's the bible verses about letting no man put asunder what God has joined together as one flesh.

Outside of fornication there isn't a reason biblically for divorce if the man or woman separated they were to remain unmarried or be reconciled to there husband/wife if they were to sleep with anyone else or remarry it would be adultery and that person would be put to death. Unfortunately we don't have the death penalty for adultery anymore and people take marriage seemingly as a joke.

I would prefer you don't come to preach to me about your watered down version of christianity and judgements.

[Fian]

It is interesting that when you countered me, you didn't give a single Bible verse - so who has the watered down version of Christianity?  Mine is based on the Bible.  You can believe me or not, but your pride is the biggest problem that you are bringing into the marriage.

Let me tackle this in a different way.  Let's say you wrote your wife an email that looked something like the following:
"God has been revealing to me a lot about my pride lately.  And I have realized that it has prevented me from being the leader that God wanted me to be in marriage, and that it must have made it difficult for you to live with me.  I wanted to write this letter to apologize to you."

Let's contrast that with what you have been doing.  She strikes you on the cheek by leaving you.  You strike her on the cheek by telling her she is being a bad, unbiblical wife.  When you strike back, the other person IS LEADING.  They have set the tone in the relationship.  When you turn the other cheek, YOU ARE LEADING.  You get to set the tone of the relationship.  In the above sample email, you are demonstrating humility, how to apologize, and changing the tone of the relationship.  She is more likely to respond positively to the above email than being told she is a bad wife.

A couple of clarifications:

• I agree that the husband is the leader in the family - my argument is that you are not leading well and you need to change your approach to one of service and humility
• I agree that God hates divorce, and the only legitimate reason for divorce given in the Bible is adultery - my argument is that divorce was LEGAL in the Old Testament and a man would not have been stoned if he divorced his wife and married another.
   To be honest, this is a side topic.

[Skip]

Let's say you wrote your wife an email that looked something like the following:
"God has been revealing to me a lot about my pride lately.  And I have realized that it has prevented me from being the leader that God wanted me to be in marriage, and that it must have made it difficult for you to live with me.  I wanted to write this letter to apologize to you."

Let's contrast that with what you have been doing.  She strikes you on the cheek by leaving you.  You strike her on the cheek by telling her she is being a bad, unbiblical wife.  When you strike back, the other person IS LEADING.  They have set the tone in the relationship.  When you turn the other cheek, YOU ARE LEADING.  You get to set the tone of the relationship.  In the above sample email, you are demonstrating humility, how to apologize, and changing the tone of the relationship.  She is more likely to respond positively to the above email than being told she is a bad wife.

This is your Pastor saying something similar:

   

[understandBPD]

It is interesting that when you countered me, you didn't give a single Bible verse

Because i don't have anything to prove to you by quoting bible verses back and forth with you what i've said is correct.

Let me tackle this in a different way.  Let's say you wrote your wife an email that looked something like the following:

This is why i said you don't really understand what i've gone through the email you suggested has already been written in multiple different ways i acknowledged my flaws and humbled myself and then asked her to forgive me and give me the opportunity to make things right. (Even when i completely disagree that it was all my fault that this happened)

There was no response no forgiveness nothing there wasn't even an acknowledgement of anything there's a line between humility and humbling yourself and being weak and unattractive i would prefer to maintain my self respect and stay strong in my word knowing what i've said is correct than to grovel to someone who isn't showing any kind of christian behaviour currently and has completely ignored me.

Let me make this clear this isn't a pride issue this isn't a stubborness issue i put all of that aside when about 3-4 weeks after she had left i have been willing to compromise even when i know she's in the wrong and her behaviour is that of a child not a woman or a wife. There isn't some kind of disagreement we're having that she wants her way i want my way and by digging my heels in she is refusing to communicate.

No this is regardless of what's been said or done no matter how humble i am or how much i've repented for my side of the problems or even how many things i've changed or improved nothing has changed on her end at all.

I agree that the husband is the leader in the family - my argument is that you are not leading well and you need to change your approach to one of service and humility

I have been reading a book called the Exemplary Husband which is a christian book about becoming a more biblical husband. Reading that and also the high conflict couple has helped me a lot i understand that there is always room for me to improve the issue is if my wife was behaving like a real christian and kept to her word and had the emotional maturity to communicate not run away like a child and stonewall then a lot of these issues would of been or have been resolved.

I agree that God hates divorce, and the only legitimate reason for divorce given in the Bible is adultery - my argument is that divorce was LEGAL in the Old Testament and a man would not have been stoned if he divorced his wife and married another.

If you do further reading you will see the actual word used is the equivelant of Fornication not Adultery and that other than fornication even adultery isn't grounds for a divorce but it is grounds for being stoned to death. (Which essentially released the person of there marriage vowels in death)

We've discussed all of this prior to marriage i know she has a very good understanding of what a marriage entailed its not like she was naive and had no idea what she was committing to.

This is your Pastor saying something similar:

I've watched this sermon in full among many others and i agree and while i could justify my own behaviours easily with the obstacles i faced outside the relationship i chose to accept my flaws and worked on changing them and finding a better way to cope when needed.

Just because i wasn't perfect though isn't a legitimate reason for my wife to abandon me and her marriage. There's plenty sermons where he talks about a wife's behaviour too and if we put it in the context you have 1 person who's accepted responsibility for his issues and worked on resolving them tried to keep communciation open and fight for his marriage and put in a lot of effort over the last 6 months.

I have a woman who's had her own issues in life decide to abandon her husband and pretend like her marriage never existed. Stonewall for almost 6 months and not acknowledge anything i've said or done at all.

After 6 months of being treated like this and the progress ive made i think its time for her to humble herself and ask for some forgiveness as well. As i said previously i know this isn't right and i don't deserve this treatment in the context of what she left over.

I still love her and i want to make this work and i am willing to compromise i've had no issue saying sorry admitting and taking responsibility for my problems and working through them all i would like to see is that she acknowledges that and opens communication as a starter.

[Fian]

Because i don't have anything to prove to you by quoting bible verses back and forth with you what i've said is correct.

The reason to quote Bible verses is because the Bible is the infallible word of God.  Our personal opinion on what is correct does not match the authority of the Bible.  My guess is that your understanding of truth is based on what you have learned from spiritual leaders that you respect.  I would encourage you to focus more on learning the Bible, and basing your beliefs and behavior on that.  If you disagree with me on that, I would encourage you to ask your spiritual leaders.  I am sure they will agree with me.

i would prefer to maintain my self respect and stay strong in my word knowing what i've said is correct than to grovel to someone who isn't showing any kind of christian behaviour currently and has completely ignored me.

I agree that groveling isn't necessary, however looking back at what you wrote, you view anything other than keep doing what you are doing is letting her take over leadership and therefore a violation of your self respect.  That is why I challenged you on pride and your understanding of leadership.  I would also like to point out that your weaponization of the Bible to try and get her to change her behavior to get what you want is a huge red flag.  It suggests a domineering and authoritarian husband that would be difficult for any woman to live with.

Discussion on divorce: I view this as a side topic here.  You aren't planning on divorce, nor am I counseling that you do so.  If you do want to discuss further what the Bible says on the topic, send me a personal message and we can continue that conversation there.

After 6 months of being treated like this and the progress ive made i think its time for her to humble herself and ask for some forgiveness as well. As i said previously i know this isn't right and i don't deserve this treatment in the context of what she left over.

I still love her and i want to make this work and i am willing to compromise i've had no issue saying sorry admitting and taking responsibility for my problems and working through them all i would like to see is that she acknowledges that and opens communication as a starter.

I want to clarify something here.  I am not taking her side, nor excusing her for her actions.  She isn't posting on this forum.  Me saying, "yeah you are right, and your situation sucks" doesn't help you.  I focus on your faults on this situation to empower you.  You can't change her behavior, but you are in control of your own.  I am trying to get you to focus on your side of the fence and try to live in a way pleasing to God.  What you wrote above is defeatist thinking.  It is giving her total control on whether the marriage succeeds or fails.  Let's say she never apologizes, but does start communicating again.  Will you accept that or insist on an apology?

[understandBPD]

The reason to quote Bible verses is because the Bible is the infallible word of God.  Our personal opinion on what is correct does not match the authority of the Bible.  My guess is that your understanding of truth is based on what you have learned from spiritual leaders that you respect.  I would encourage you to focus more on learning the Bible, and basing your beliefs and behavior on that.  If you disagree with me on that, I would encourage you to ask your spiritual leaders.  I am sure they will agree with me.

What i said above isn't personal opinion its directly from the bible however as i said i don't have anything to prove or to preach here its not why im on this forum. I agree with you that the bible comes first i don't follow spiritual leaders at all.

I agree that groveling isn't necessary, however looking back at what you wrote, you view anything other than keep doing what you are doing is letting her take over leadership and therefore a violation of your self respect.  That is why I challenged you on pride and your understanding of leadership.  I would also like to point out that your weaponization of the Bible to try and get her to change her behavior to get what you want is a huge red flag.  It suggests a domineering and authoritarian husband that would be difficult for any woman to live with.

Exactly and that is exactly what anything other than what i've said above would be at this point there's no 2 way discussion or compromising from her at all there's nothing but stonewalling and playing victim. There's not much i can really do other than what i already am which is keep improving myself spritiually mentally physically and intellectually.

I was actually the opposite of what you claim i had simple rules and she had the freedom to do mostly whatever she wanted once she started taking advantage of that and becoming rebellious i also became more tough to ensure she didn't get her way and control the relationship. The same as i mentioned previously when she tried to manipulate me into speaking 30 mins a week and it was her way or nothing and i told her direct that's not how this works.

Women naturally try to test for control and if you allow them to get there own way they will keep on taking until you have nothing left to give then leave you high and dry. It's the fallen nature of women and its why there so spiteful and initiate most divorces because there easily mislead and deceived by satan as from the beginning until the end.

Let's say she never apologizes, but does start communicating again.  Will you accept that or insist on an apology?

I don't even want an apology your making it sound like im being unrealistic and fighting her in this situation in reality the last 6 months have been me asking her to come home telling her i love her and forgive her and that i've continually been working on myself in all areas of life to be a better and more biblical husband and to learn how to communicate and understand her better.

I've already forgiven her for everything and made it clear the only thing i won't tolerate is adultery/unfaithfulness while we are married regardless of where she is or how long we've been apart. I would be happy to just have a mature discussion face to face or on the phone or even in txt which she's denied me completely since the beginning.

She went home picked a fight intentionally then split on me and there was no going back she was looking for a reason to do what she has done.

She can't even communicate what is happening in our marriage to me and i have and never would treat her like this regardless of if i was hurt angry or whatever the situation this behaviour is outright wrong.

What you seem to be asking me to do is ignore all of her poor behaviour pretend shes perfect and grovel to her and what im telling you is that i have done everything i can to be forgiving and understanding kind and patient. I've prayed for both of us every night since she left and asked God to work with both of us and help me serve him better and become more like christ.

What honestly can i do more than what i'm already doing ?

[Fian]

What i said above isn't personal opinion its directly from the bible however as i said i don't have anything to prove or to preach here its not why im on this forum. I agree with you that the bible comes first i don't follow spiritual leaders at all.

You have constructed a box where you are unteachable.  I quote the Bible and you reject it.  You just stated that you don't follow spiritual leaders.  I could give you a verse on the danger of being unteachable, but what would be the point - you will just ignore it.  This is not a good place to be.

Women naturally try to test for control and if you allow them to get there own way they will keep on taking until you have nothing left to give then leave you high and dry. It's the fallen nature of women and its why there so spiteful and initiate most divorces because there easily mislead and deceived by satan as from the beginning until the end.

This is a very disrespectful way to speak about women, which obviously would include your wife.  Your wife was created in the image of God and the verse I quoted earlier talked about giving them honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life.  Does she have a sin nature?  Yes, but so do you.  The above mindset may be one of the reasons why she left, and is therefore something that you should work on fixing.  Also, anecdotally, I have been married to my wife for 21 years and I don't consider the following statement to be true, "Women naturally try to test for control and if you allow them to get there own way they will keep on taking until you have nothing left to give then leave you high and dry."

What you seem to be asking me to do is ignore all of her poor behaviour

Yes, I am asking you to do this.  Stop playing the role of the victim in the relationship.  Let God worry about who is right and who is wrong.  You do 2 things.  One, worry about your side of the fence, and do everything you can to be the husband that God wants you to be.  Two, as a leader, consider what actions will help to mend the relationship, outside of your personal feelings and pride.

I would also like to address the "I have tried everything" mindset.  To be honest, I believe you have.  But it was more of an attempt to see what sticks.  In fact, you probably tried multiple ways in the same communication.  It probably appeared schizophrenic.  What I would encourage you to do is to pick a tone and stick with it.  The tone that I would personally recommend is to focus on making her feel safe and loved.

One thing you might consider is asking her father to act as a mediator in the relationship (but not until you have set a new tone).  She is afraid to talk to you directly, so maybe she can discuss things with you, through her father.

[stolencrumbs]

I wanted to chime in here with something a little more specific that hasn't been addressed directly, though I think it is probably an example of the kinds of things others are saying in this thread. I will say upfront that I am not a Christian. I say that to (1) give you the opportunity to just ignore what I say on those grounds and (2) make it clear that I am offering a perspective that is independent of any thoughts or judgments about what is or isn't Biblical.

I'll try to recap this as concisely and starkly as possible, though these tidbits are spread out across a number of posts.

Before your wife went back to be with her family, she expressed that she felt "stuck/trapped here." (I know you don't think she should have, but she articulated feeling that way.) She went back and the two of you seemed to have agreed that the time apart would allow each of you to work on yourselves. She found a therapist. In conjunction with the therapist, she put forth a boundary that she would communicate with you 30 minutes a week because talking with you caused stress and anxiety. You "refused" and "rejected" this boundary. She then tried to protect that boundary by blocking you except for the 30 minutes a week that she had previously stated was her boundary. You did not accept this and she blocked you full stop. You responded to this by showing up in her country and at her parents' house. She did not respond positively and has not contacted you since then.

I know a lot of other stuff has happened and there are a lot of other issues. But in that time after she went back to her family, you essentially told a person who was feeling trapped that, while she is working on herself with the help of a professional, she does not get to even control her own communications that she finds stressful.

And that seems to be something you think that you are just plain right about. She doesn't get to decide that and "force" that on you. From the outside, and from what has been written here, this seems to me to be a pretty big part of what led to things getting worse. I don't have great suggestions for what to do, and it may just be irreconcilable if she feels trapped and tries to set boundaries and your conviction is that she doesn't get to do that but needs to just submit. But reflecting on that and maybe seeing that it was at least a less-than-ideal strategy at the time for maintaining or repairing a relationship might be a thing worth thinking about. It might be a specific instance or issue that gets at some of the more general advice and commentary that others have provided about rethinking your approach.

[Fian]

I wanted to chime in here with something a little more specific that hasn't been addressed directly, though I think it is probably an example of the kinds of things others are saying in this thread. I will say upfront that I am not a Christian. I say that to (1) give you the opportunity to just ignore what I say on those grounds and (2) make it clear that I am offering a perspective that is independent of any thoughts or judgments about what is or isn't Biblical.

I'll try to recap this as concisely and starkly as possible, though these tidbits are spread out across a number of posts.

Before your wife went back to be with her family, she expressed that she felt "stuck/trapped here." (I know you don't think she should have, but she articulated feeling that way.) She went back and the two of you seemed to have agreed that the time apart would allow each of you to work on yourselves. She found a therapist. In conjunction with the therapist, she put forth a boundary that she would communicate with you 30 minutes a week because talking with you caused stress and anxiety. You "refused" and "rejected" this boundary. She then tried to protect that boundary by blocking you except for the 30 minutes a week that she had previously stated was her boundary. You did not accept this and she blocked you full stop. You responded to this by showing up in her country and at her parents' house. She did not respond positively and has not contacted you since then.

I know a lot of other stuff has happened and there are a lot of other issues. But in that time after she went back to her family, you essentially told a person who was feeling trapped that, while she is working on herself with the help of a professional, she does not get to even control her own communications that she finds stressful.

And that seems to be something you think that you are just plain right about. She doesn't get to decide that and "force" that on you. From the outside, and from what has been written here, this seems to me to be a pretty big part of what led to things getting worse. I don't have great suggestions for what to do, and it may just be irreconcilable if she feels trapped and tries to set boundaries and your conviction is that she doesn't get to do that but needs to just submit. But reflecting on that and maybe seeing that it was at least a less-than-ideal strategy at the time for maintaining or repairing a relationship might be a thing worth thinking about. It might be a specific instance or issue that gets at some of the more general advice and commentary that others have provided about rethinking your approach.

As a Christian, let me agree with this.  Respecting someone's boundary is not contrary to the Bible, nor does it diminish your authority as the husband.  It is dealing with the reality of the situation rather than how you think it should be.

[understandBPD]

You have constructed a box where you are unteachable.  I quote the Bible and you reject it.

I am not rejecting the bible and i understand what God has asked of a husband on how to love his wife. I don't think its fair to claim im unteachable because i disagreed with your view on marriage even though you basically said we agree on what i've said.

I am open to listening and taking onboard what i feel is useful in this situation but some of what you've said like i mentioned would basically be considered groveling at this point. I have apologized to my wife for my own wrong doings and told her that i want things to be different and made every effort to prove that to her so saying anything along these lines after 6 months of stonewalling just seems fruitless.

Before your wife went back to be with her family, she expressed that she felt "stuck/trapped here." (I know you don't think she should have, but she articulated feeling that way.) She went back and the two of you seemed to have agreed that the time apart would allow each of you to work on yourselves. She found a therapist. In conjunction with the therapist, she put forth a boundary that she would communicate with you 30 minutes a week because talking with you caused stress and anxiety. You "refused" and "rejected" this boundary. She then tried to protect that boundary by blocking you except for the 30 minutes a week that she had previously stated was her boundary. You did not accept this and she blocked you full stop. You responded to this by showing up in her country and at her parents' house. She did not respond positively and has not contacted you since then.

She went back to her parents purposely started a fight then said she isn't going to talk to me then said i have 30 minutes a week to report to her what i'm working on. I believe and still do this lack of communication is what has caused the rapid decline of our marriage. A boundary to give your husband 30 mins a week to speak is disrespectful the stonewalling combined is manipulative and used as a way to gain control of the relationship. She failed at this and i called her out on this poor behaviour if i had an opportunity to do that again i would because i don't believe that is the way you treat your partner if i wouldn't do something like that to my wife i wouldn't expect it done to me.

After she had blocked me for over a month i decided to go to her country to speak with her and her family to try to resolve the situation as any mature adult would do. Because at that point i had no idea what was happening in our marriage.

help of a professional

I believe this "professional" played a role in destroying my marriage because firstly individual therapy within a marriage is usually destructive. Secondly he shouldn't give any input on our marriage unless his spoken to both parties so she's probably told him an exagerated story and he's convinced her divorce was okay. Thirdly therapists have high rates of divorce themselves and usually from my understanding don't really see the importance of a marriage.

I asked her if we could speak with her therapist together or if he could speak to me. She rejected this and i asked her to speak to therapist i saw she rejected this. If he had been told the truth about her life and this situation i find it incredibly difficult to believe that first he hasn't diagnosed her and secondly didn't contact me to discuss if anything i would say he's been unprofessional and borderline malicious/negligent in his dealings with my wife.

This is a very disrespectful way to speak about women, which obviously would include your wife.  Your wife was created in the image of God and the verse I quoted earlier talked about giving them honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life.  Does she have a sin nature?  Yes, but so do you.  The above mindset may be one of the reasons why she left, and is therefore something that you should work on fixing.  Also, anecdotally, I have been married to my wife for 21 years and I don't consider the following statement to be true, "Women naturally try to test for control and if you allow them to get there own way they will keep on taking until you have nothing left to give then leave you high and dry."

From my experience and reading through the bible this is just a fact there are women who choose to follow God and submit to there husbands and God's authority and structure and there are women who rebel and sin. I've always seen women be spiteful in my life so perhaps im bias but that also does not change the fact 80% or more of divorces are initiated by women and it's probably why mens suicide rate has also dramatically increased as well. There is a reason why God was so stern on wives submission and meek and quiet spirit and that reason is because of there original sin nature.

That's not saying i don't need to love my wife or treat her well or with respect and that im sinless its just pointing out that anytime a man has let a woman lead/make the decisions things have and will go wrong. If my wife allowed me to lead and make the decisions we wouldn't be in this mess it was my idea to let her go back to her parents to help our marriage i believe this was a good idea. After she went back to her parents she decide to become more rebellious and disobedient since she knew i was in another country and look at where we are now.

Yes, I am asking you to do this.  Stop playing the role of the victim in the relationship.  Let God worry about who is right and who is wrong.  You do 2 things.  One, worry about your side of the fence, and do everything you can to be the husband that God wants you to be.  Two, as a leader, consider what actions will help to mend the relationship, outside of your personal feelings and pride.

Happy to do this but i don't have any idea on what actions could or would help mend the relationship that i haven't already tried. I have spoken to her father multiple times and he does not seem to care that much or his doing something but isn't telling me anything. The last time he spoke he asked me what changes ive made via txt i told him everything and he didn't reply.

I've asked him multiple times to help with this situation but so far his done nothing that i know about perhaps his working with my wife i don't know.

The tone that I would personally recommend is to focus on making her feel safe and loved.

I've basically told her that i am faithful to only her and have no intention of abandoning our marriage. That i love and accept all of her none of this is her fault and if she can tell me what she needs from me to improve this situation to let me know. That she will always have a place here and that i want her to come home. I've told her about wanting to help her feel safe and validate her feelings and if she's willing to communicate with me either through email , text or call (she ignored everything)

I will ask her father if he will mediate between us and see what he says as its a good idea and i haven't phrased it like that before. But i am starting to believe that unless she changes her own thoughts and behaviour and stops self sabotaging the marriage it seems out of my hands.

I think just working on myself being patient and understanding and staying faithful is all that can be done and giving her time and space. It's very disappointing and sad that someone you've shared a life with and committed too can treat you in such a hurtful way and pretend you don't exist and i pray God will work with her and soften her heart.

[Skip]

Just to shift direction a bit... is there a practical application of everything that has been discussed here.

You said that you are contacting her for her birthday - to give her books, flowers and an email - and then will leave her alone for the next 6 months. This is a chance to shift gears. For everyone reading, the books and the email are described below.

It might be constructive to talk about what you are planning to say in that email (below) and explore some of the alternatives that members have suggested in this thread (e.g., apologizing, respecting her space, offering to discuss the future options of reconciliation/divorce through an intermediary, focusing your tone/message, making her feel safe, not repeating things you have said numerous times already, etc).

As an outsider looking in, the message, as it stands, might be is a bit confusing. Baby nutrition? Walking down another street?

her birthday is coming up end of september i was planning to send her a few books i was wondering what your opinion might be.

2 of the books are traditional cook books 1 focuses on adult cooking the other focuses on meals and nutrition for babies/children
1 is called the Excellent Wife: A Biblical Perspective
1 is called The High-Conflict Couple: A Dialectical Behavior Therapy Guide to Finding Peace, Intimacy, and Validation

I'm going to aim for 3 weeks giving her space and then it'll be her birthday and ill send her a message.

I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost … I am hopeless.
It isn't my fault.
It takes forever to find a way out.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it.
I fall in again.
I can't believe I'm in the same place.
But it isn't my fault.
It still takes a long time to get out.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in … it’s a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is my fault.
I get out immediately.

I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.

I walk down another street.

I've sent her a gift and letter for her birthday should arrive in 2 or so weeks and im going to arrange some flowers to be sent to her as well as an email wishing her a happy birthday other than that im not going to contact or persue her anymore and will do the next 6 months differently and hope in that time she remains faithful and may realize her own poor behaviour and do something about it.

[understandBPD]

It might be constructive to talk about what you are planning to say in that email (below) and explore some of the alternatives that members have suggested in this thread (e.g., apologizing, respecting her space, offering to discuss the future options of reconciliation/divorce with and intermediary, focusing yourtone/message, making her feel safe, etc).

I actually wrote her a letter and sent it with the gifts and birthday card and asked her to read it after her birthday.

The letter did include an apology and asking for forgiveness for any wrongdoings and that when/if she returns home it would be to a much different husband.

In terms of respecting her space i had asked her in the past if she just wanted space she never told me she needed space and never responded to anything i asked from her the closest i got to some kind of response was "What I'd like you to do is to not contact me anymore unless it's actually important."

I've sent the gifts / card / letter and will get some flowers delivered to her on the day in terms of emailing her it will just be a simple happy birthday etc everything i wanted to say is in the letter.

Outside of this i'm not going to contact her unless she reaches out to me because i agree at this point everything i've done has been fruitless and if anything its just pushing her further away no matter how much i try to reason with her.

[Skip]

What I'd like you to do is to not contact me anymore unless it's actually important.

What do you think she means by "important"?

[understandBPD]

What do you think she means by "important"?

I don't exactly know i guess anything unrelated to our relationship for example i was paying for her gym membership i emailed her asking if i could cancel it.

She replied instantly "Hello, yes please do thank you"

We don't really have anything "important" we don't have kids the only other thing im paying for is her mobile phone plan and i didn't message her to cancel that because it might be seen as if im cutting ties or being spiteful or something. (even though shes out of the country and its completely void)

Perhaps she thought maybe i would give up or throw in the towel and say i want a divorce and that would be an important matter ? maybe if something happened to me or my mother and i needed help ? unsure really

[Skip]

maybe i would give up or throw in the towel and say i want a divorce and that would be an important matter ? maybe if something happened to me or my mother

Yeah, that would be my read, too.

Then we get married and she's got a rebellious attitude and struggles with doing all the things she claimed were according to God have constant issues with her listening and submitting.

Do you think its possible that you, as the leader of the family, were insisting on a relationship model that was too extreme for her? Yes, I know you talked about it before you lived in the same country and before you were married. But, two people can agree to share an order of spicy Thai food, but for one spicy might mean 5+ and for the other it might mean 3+ (with 5+ being intolerable).

What I'd like you to do is to not contact me anymore unless it's actually important.

If she felt you were too controlling and the relationship model too rigid and you said you had changed...

but you kept contacting her weekly (against her will) and keep telling her about her rigid obligations to you...

would she be more convinced that, even with her leaving you, you can't see her concerns? haven't changed?

I've sent the gifts / card / letter and will get some flowers delivered to her on the day in terms of emailing her it will just be a simple happy birthday etc everything i wanted to say is in the letter.

Do you think sending flowers and an email (in addition to what has been sent) is more likely to make matters better or make them worse?

She's just said don't contact me anymore hasn't said anything further other than 1 time about divorce hasn't said anything about the marriage (did tell someone i know that we aren't married though which was strange)

If you were convinced by the holidays that she has no intention of ever returning, what would you do?

[understandBPD]

Yeah, that would be my read, too.

I won't ever initiate or agree to divorce and i've told her that so perhaps she's testing me to see how long i will endure this.

Do you think its possible that you, as the leader of the family, were insisting on a relationship model that was too extreme for her?

No chance we spent time together multiple times and travelled before we were married and we had almost no issues she wasn't rebellious or disobedient and was overall a very good woman and i was extremely happy with her (which is why i chose her) it was only after the marriage pretty much a week after that it began.

She came from a more formal and strict family and if what she said was true about how she was raised and living then being with me would of been like she finally got her freedom. But then she started accusing me of cheating and then she had create these scenarios saying im a hypocrite and expect her to follow 1 set of rules but im allowed to do anything i want.

In the context it was actually the opposite she would be the 1 doing things wrong then projecting them onto me like im the guilty person and because i already have a pretty strong view on women being manipulative and trying to take control i had the backbone to stand up against her always. I think she was used of getting her own way with people and especially males they would cave in to whatever she wanted as i said she's smart and attractive so she knows she has guys attention but would try to cover that as there "friends" etc and i guess when she met me and realized i don't care how smart she is or how attractive she is ill hold her accountable for her actions and call them out perhaps thats something that initially attracted her to me.

Later on when she realized she wasn't able to get me to cave in to her demands she started to dislike it the more rebellious she became the more tough i would get and it was a constant powerstruggle and she would always lose and i guess she got tired of fighting and losing.

I would explain this to her and tell her the more she fights the harder it gets the more she listens and submits the softer and more caring i become its just the natural way God made us.

would she be more convinced that, even with her leaving you, you can't see her concerns? haven't changed?

I see her concerns and told her we could do things differently and try a different approach i was completely open to being unbiased to my way or the high way and offered her all kinds of different solutions to resolve or improve this situation she opted to take none of them.

I just think spending years saying what u want and behaving in a certain way convincing someone of what kind of person u are and then changing after marriage is a pretty poor thing to do and she would flip it on me and say the person she met/married was an illussion but the reality was the woman i met completely changed. She went from this innocent feminine submissive kind soft hearted loving woman who i would trust with my life and do anything for into this spiteful rebellious rude disobedient woman who no matter what i did she was never thankful and appreciative off constantly putting me down and saying extremely hurtful things that i constantly forgave over and over.

I understand what your saying and that's why i've taken your suggestion of doing a 180 and trying a different approach giving it time and space reducing the contact as much as possible and just focusing on what is within my control i can't do anything about what she does or who she speaks to or how she behaves but i can change how it impacts me and how i react to it and i can feel myself slowly getting better and having more control.

Do you think sending flowers and an email (in addition to what has been sent) is more likely to make matters better or make them worse?

To be honest i think its neutral but i do it more so for myself because i believe its the right thing to do and no matter how bitter she might be she can't hate her husband for sending her a happy birthday message and flowers. I want to be able to say to myself i did everything i could and have no regret will i regret sending stuff no will i regret doing nothing absolutely.

If you were convinced by the holidays that she has no intention of ever returning, what would you do?

There isn't much that i can do if she decides to not return. I would patiently wait until either she tries to divorce me or i find out she's with someone else committing adultery. For myself i don't intend on moving on or replacing my wife because i think that's a sinful/negative way to think and it hasn't really crossed my mind at this point because i believe we will figure this out. God forbid we don't after something official that crosses my line e.g divorce/adultery then perhaps my thinking would change.


I guess we will see what she does at the end of the month when its her birthday and i still want to remain hopeful.

[Fian]

Ok, let's talk about next steps when it comes to communication/actions.  I have said that the goal should be to make her feel safe, and loved.  To be clear, she is afraid of you, based on what you written in this thread.  She does not trust your leadership, and emotionally she cannot handle arguing with you.  So, the goal is to try and get to the point of safe conversations.  That means don't blame her, don't defend yourself, and don't try to get her to come home.  It also means don't ask her what you are doing wrong.  At least not initially.  The goal is to complete a conversation with her that is positive.  If you have a positive conversation, it will lead to future conversations.  If the conversation leads to an argument, it will be harder to convince her to have another conversation.

As a starting point, ask, through her father, to have a 30 minute conversation with her like she suggested in the first place.  Assure her that you don't want to argue or condemn her, you just want to hear her voice.  I think that would mean a lot to her, as it shows you are listening to her and trying to respect her wishes.

When it comes to written communication, I would strongly encourage you to run it by this forum first.  You have a lot to learn about marriage, and there are many on this forum with successful marriages that can give you good guidance.

The last part I want to emphasize for you, is that she is the only game in town for you.  You have already said that you won't divorce her, and if she divorces you, you will not remarry.  IMO, this is a good thing.  Marriage is hard.  It is easy to come to the conclusion that the problem in your marriage is your spouse, and the solution is to get someone else.  When you take that option away, it keeps forcing you back to working on your marriage instead of deciding it is hopeless and giving up.  With that in mind, you are being asked to do things that you don't want to do.  That it will take away your self respect.  Use the above motivation to push that.

One last thing about self respect.  Let's take the example of Jesus washing his disciple's feet (John 13:1-20).  It is too long to quote here, but the key take away is that Jesus did the role of a slave when he was the leader of the disciples, and in fact the God of the universe.  Washing feet was beneath him.  But he said in verses 13 and 14, "You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am.  If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet."  I personally took that to heart, and during my honeymoon, I washed my wife's feet, as that was the tone I wanted to set in our relationship.  I did not feel I was giving up my self respect, because I was choosing to do so, by choosing to surrender my pride to God.  My wife did not make me do it, I chose to do it because I love God and wanted to glorify Him by being the best husband possible.

[Fian]

One other thing that I forgot to mention.  I would continue to send her money.  It is a way to demonstrate faithfulness.  Removing it would send the signal that you are trying to control her through money, which is the exact opposite message that you want to send to her right now.

[understandBPD]

As a starting point, ask, through her father, to have a 30 minute conversation with her like she suggested in the first place.  Assure her that you don't want to argue or condemn her, you just want to hear her voice.  I think that would mean a lot to her, as it shows you are listening to her and trying to respect her wishes.

I will wait until after her birthday (end of month) and then contact her father asking this.

When it comes to written communication, I would strongly encourage you to run it by this forum first.  You have a lot to learn about marriage, and there are many on this forum with successful marriages that can give you good guidance.

I don't plan to write her anything further so should be safe and agree i have a lot to learn about marriage clearly being in this situation regardless of who's at fault.

The last part I want to emphasize for you, is that she is the only game in town for you.  You have already said that you won't divorce her, and if she divorces you, you will not remarry.  IMO, this is a good thing.  Marriage is hard.  It is easy to come to the conclusion that the problem in your marriage is your spouse, and the solution is to get someone else.  When you take that option away, it keeps forcing you back to working on your marriage instead of deciding it is hopeless and giving up.  With that in mind, you are being asked to do things that you don't want to do.  That it will take away your self respect.  Use the above motivation to push that.

We both went into this marriage agreeing on this i am upholding my side of our promise and commitment she however isn't and its why we had difficulties in our marriage she never saw it as im stuck with this man for the rest of my life so i can either try to make it work and improve the marriage or be miserable for the rest of my life. (that's the mindset i have)

One last thing about self respect.  Let's take the example of Jesus washing his disciple's feet (John 13:1-20).  It is too long to quote here, but the key take away is that Jesus did the role of a slave when he was the leader of the disciples, and in fact the God of the universe.  Washing feet was beneath him.  But he said in verses 13 and 14, "You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am.  If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet."  I personally took that to heart, and during my honeymoon, I washed my wife's feet, as that was the tone I wanted to set in our relationship.  I did not feel I was giving up my self respect, because I was choosing to do so, by choosing to surrender my pride to God.  My wife did not make me do it, I chose to do it because I love God and wanted to glorify Him by being the best husband possible.

I agree with this mindset and would have no issue doing something a long those lines. If my wife contacted me and asked me to do something for her regardless if i think she deserves it or not i would do it for her because i love her. It's when those demands come from a malicious sinful rebellious nature that i feel a man should resist e.g you said your wife didn't ask you to wash her feet but you chose to.

There's a difference but in my situation there's no 2 way communication and nothing being asked of me so im unable to do anything to server her lovingly.

One other thing that I forgot to mention.  I would continue to send her money.  It is a way to demonstrate faithfulness.  Removing it would send the signal that you are trying to control her through money, which is the exact opposite message that you want to send to her right now.

I was of this thought to but others here suggested i stop sending the money its very confusing i am in agreement with your reasoning moreso than the other idea of cutting her off because its giving her reasons to use against me in the end if she does move on or divorce me im not going to regret supporting my wife until God forbid she divorced but i will regret it if i didn't send her money and she uses that against me

Do you suggest i continue sending a receipt of transfer to her father as i have been doing so he knows i am still supporting her ? (I started doing this because she told her father i didn't support her when she was living with me and said i gave her $400 in 10 months of living with me in reality since meeting her the visa alone cost me almost 15,000 and i've easily spent 20,000 on various costs in the relationship sending her roughly 8000 while apart before and after marriage when we waited for visa so now i started sending her father the proof of support to avoid her lying further)

[Fian]

Should you send a receipt to her father?  Sending it once seems fine to correct a misunderstanding of your character.  But I would be hesitant to keep doing so.  Mathew 6, "when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what the right hand is doing."  Keeping records in case you need to provide a defense is a good thing, though.

I don't have time right now, but later I am going to try and write things through how I suspect your wife is viewing things.  It is just my best guess, but it might help you view the situation in a more loving way.

[understandBPD]

Sending it once seems fine to correct a misunderstanding of your character.

Pretty certain her father knows at this point what she said isn't true regardless if he acknowledges it i had never mentioned money or anything to him until hearing she told him i didn't support her.

I am going to try and write things through how I suspect your wife is viewing things.  It is just my best guess, but it might help you view the situation in a more loving way.

Thank you for taking the time to try to help me i appreciate it.

[Skip]

Don't try to make a point or hope to gain favor by sending the $400/month allowance. At the same time, if you stop now, it may appear manipulative. Another six months ($2,400) isn't going to break you. Besides, she is likely entitled to more than that if you divorce.

I also think you should continue to send the money and give her notice before you stop. You don't know her dependence on it.

Do you think its possible that you, as the leader of the family, were insisting on a relationship model that was too extreme for her? Yes, I know you talked about it before you lived in the same country and before you were married. But, two people can agree to share an order of spicy Thai food, but for one spicy might mean 5+ and for the other it might mean 3+ (with 5+ being intolerable).

No chance we spent time together multiple times and travelled before we were married and we had almost no issues she wasn't rebellious or disobedient and was overall a very good woman and i was extremely happy with her (which is why i chose her) it was only after the marriage pretty much a week after that it began.

Respectfully, much of what you have written suggests that she rebelled over the relationship model and that there was a power struggle at the center of the friction between the two of you. It would be a mistake to gloss over this. If there is to be any chance of reconciliation, you most likely will need to make real change here. If you are not willing to tone this down, this sounds like a deal breaker for her.

Are you willing to do this to save the marriage?

As a starting point, ask, through her father, to have a 30 minute conversation with her like she suggested in the first place.  Assure her that you don't want to argue or condemn her, you just want to hear her voice.  I think that would mean a lot to her, as it shows you are listening to her and trying to respect her wishes.

I think this is a good idea. I would wait a few months (i.e., December) before contacting them again. I also would not send flowers or a birthday email. The books, a card, and the letter are enough. Let things cool down for her (you have been chasing for six months against her wishes). Give her some space now. Show her that respect.

Use the time to explore if you are willing to give up your strict relationship relationship model for a more mainstream/contemporary Christian model. There are plenty of good Christian counselors out there who can help you. We have a number of members here that support you in that effort, too.

You also should use the time to learn how to better support the needs of a special needs partner - whether it is chronic depression, BPD traits, or highly sensitive personality.

[Fian]

Ok, I went through your posts, and here are the things that I gleaned from your situation:

What she brought into the marriage

• anxiety / depression / suicide attempt
• sexual trauma
• What i am certain about is she is a good woman with a good heart she isn't spiteful and she's God fearing
• She is from poorer, non-western country
• She has had other relationships - she was also cheated on and said it messed her up quite a bit and gave her trust issues
• I think she was used of getting her own way with people and especially males they would cave in to whatever she wanted
• when she was younger she moved in with her grandma unfortunately her grandma has passed away so that isn't an option
• You have complained about her having immature and childish behavior
• she is 10 years young than me so she is naive and gullable about the big world out there and being from her country also shielded to a lot of the western degeneracy as well

Issues once married

• had some hardships due to living in different countries
• she was living with me for 10 months depressed / unhappy (maybe 30-40% my own fault)
• during the 10 months it was a slow build up of irritation / small arguements and fights that slowly got worse i withdrew because she was making life difficult
• when i visited she got super angry at me threatened me and told someone i know im "dangerous"
• She's living with her parents but had always complained about hating it there and her mother was apparently her abuser from childhood
• told her parents i didn't financially provide
• has in past accused me of cheating
• After she saw the therapist she said we will only speak 30 mins a week because talking to me brings her stress and anxiety
• always been hesitant about the marriage like 1 foot in the door 1 foot out even a few days after our wedding she wanted to go home
• at the moment at least for me she is stone cold
• She asked me to read the bible and learn about it more which i've been doing
• she was the 1 who told me to go read the bible and learn how to be more of a biblical husband
• So we've constantly had fights over this and her on facebook with male friends i think its wrong and inappropriate for a married woman
• She told them i forced her to cook for me and even when she was upset i didn't care and told her its something she has to do
• Then we get married and she's got a rebellious attitude and struggles with doing all the things she claimed were according to God have constant issues with her listening and submitting.
• (i withdrew to playing video games which is was my go to coping mechanism) she then used that as the "issue" of why she's unhappy.
• We live with my mother
• The truth is we were both just struggling with depression i withdrew to games she withdrew to crying and wanting to escape
• Stay at home wife - she tried to distract herself with a job which i told her i didn't want her to do but "allowed" it because it was something she was passionate about but this wasn't part of the plan/agreement the agreement was she would persue her interests until she came here then we would start a family and she would stay home and not work.
• i was just this ruthless savage man who treated her like a slave
• I need to move out rent my own place alone for the forseeable future
• I'm not going to move out but i told her if she was to come home and tell me any issues if there are any involving my mother i would address them and if they couldn't be addressed i would consider moving out because she is always going to be a priority over my mother and i've made that clear to her.
• I have worked with her slowly through a range of health issues eating disorder , panic attacks , hormone problems
• I was actually the opposite of what you claim i had simple rules and she had the freedom to do mostly whatever she wanted once she started taking advantage of that and becoming rebellious i also became more tough to ensure she didn't get her way and control the relationship.
• Later on when she realized she wasn't able to get me to cave in to her demands she started to dislike it the more rebellious she became the more tough i would get and it was a constant powerstruggle and she would always lose and i guess she got tired of fighting and losing.

My thoughts in next post.

[Fian]

So based on the prior post, here is how I see things.  You had a long distance relationship.  It is always difficult to get a read on a person in a long distance relationship.  You are going to be on your best behavior when you are in person.  You get married, and that requires her to relocate to your country (I am guessing that you were married for quite some time until she was legally allowed to emigrate to your country).  I picture her as 18-21 and you in your early 30s. 

It is very difficult for her to get used to living in a foreign country.  She has lost her entire support structure.  One reason, she probably insisted on her Facebook friends was it was a tie to her old country and support.  With the lack of support, and the fact that she is a homemaker, you become the only support that she has.  She expects you to meet her every emotional need, which is too much for any man.  Any time you don't spend with her, like video games, she resents.

Like most women today, you are not the first man that she has dated.  She makes the mistake of comparing you to her prior boyfriends, and thinking that a husband is going to put her on a pedestal like a boyfriend would.

Once you got married, you weren't who she thought you were.  She had issues with your view of husband leadership (and you know that I do too).  She thought she was getting a servant leader, and she got a king instead.  She wants you to be the spiritual leader, but your knowledge of the Bible is limited.  So, she asks you to read the Bible more and learn more about what it means to be a Biblical husband.  An additional stresser is that she is living with her mother-in-law.  That is a difficult thing for any young bride.  A part of her is worried that she made a mistake marrying you.  All couples deal with fights in the first year of marriage, as you try to merge 2 lives into one, but the fights start to get worse.  As the fights get worse, you start to exert more control.  She is starting to experience physical symptoms of the stress.  She is starting to think about ending her life - exercising the "until death do us part" portion of the vow.  She comes to a decision.  She has to lower her emotional stress, or she will end her life.  She chooses separation.  You don't react well to that, so she opts for no contact.

[understandBPD]

You should continue to send the money and give her notice before you stop. You don't know her dependence on it.

Yes i think that's the best option.

Are you willing to do this to save the marriage?

I am willing to compromise on a lot of things yes because at the end of the day i love her and i want the marriage to survive.

I would wait a few months (i.e., December) before contacting them again.

I don't know if its insecurity but when i read things like this i just think in a few months she's going to completely forget about me and her marriage and move on and i already feel like she's just waiting for that 12 month separation period to start divorce but again it's my insecurity not what she's been saying.

So based on the prior post, here is how I see things.  You had a long distance relationship.  It is always difficult to get a read on a person in a long distance relationship.  You are going to be on your best behavior when you are in person.  You get married, and that requires her to relocate to your country (I am guessing that you were married for quite some time until she was legally allowed to emigrate to your country).  I picture her as 18-21 and you in your early 30s.

Correct and it was extremely stressful process for us both.

It is very difficult for her to get used to living in a foreign country.  She has lost her entire support structure.  One reason, she probably insisted on her Facebook friends was it was a tie to her old country and support.  With the lack of support, and the fact that she is a homemaker, you become the only support that she has.  She expects you to meet her every emotional need, which is too much for any man.  Any time you don't spend with her, like video games, she resents.

We had issues with her facebook before and after marriage 95% of her friends on facebook are males who aren't even from her country she claims they are just friends and interested in the same kind of music etc the reality is 90% of them find her attractive and would love an opportunity with her. As her husband i am against male/female friendships i cut my social media and any female friends and it was what she agreed to do before marriage she said she would consider it inappropriate to have male friends when married after we got married that wasn't the case anymore.

Yes meeting every emotional need which is impossible and something she has to get under control. At the start she was okay and even joined me after few weeks and the novely wore off she started to get worse and then wanted to go get a job which i told her was a bad idea but she decided to do it anyway.

Once you got married, you weren't who she thought you were.  She had issues with your view of husband leadership (and you know that I do too).

We went spent as much time as possible together she was confident on marrying me and when 2 people get married you never really know them fully until you live together that's the case for most couples. She didn't have issues with my idea of marriage , leadership and submission at all from years of talking with her i was very clear on what exactly and why i believed certain things should be a certain way. There was no hiding anything or toning it down until she was married then just changing everything she knew 100% exactly what i wanted and she was in absolute full agreement with it.

 All couples deal with fights in the first year of marriage, as you try to merge 2 lives into one, but the fights start to get worse.

This is part of any new marriage which is why it wasn't concerning the issue is if your not 100% in the marriage and honoring your views your not motivated to fix anything when you have a run away option. With her past relationships they were mostly long distance as soon as she stopped idealizing them she discarded them and blocked them.

She had issue with me because she couldn't do that when she was here when she finally got home she tried to do that and didn't realize that's not how a marriage works and she can't treat me like a boyfriend. She had all these issues of depression , stress and anxiety before she met me after she met me during living with her parents and during living with me. This is why its unfair for me to take all the blame or justify her behaviour and she needs to realize she has some issues that need to be resolved and if she works with her husband to get through them she will have a much better life.

Instead she's opted to repeat her malicious self sabotaging behaviour of discarding and will most likely repeat the cycle with another if she does end up divorcing me. She's taken no accountability or responsibility for her own behaviour. I can blame myself all day and tell her its all my fault im very sorry please forgive me and she would still ignore me and not change a thing if anything it would make me look pathethic and help her move on easier by accept full liability for the breakdown of the marriage.

At least by telling her no sorry you have issues and you are also responsible for this and because you've opted to run from your problems and not communicate and self sabotage the marriage you are essentially the reason its failing not me.

I think based on her behaviour she has some undiagnosed issue at first i thought it was Disassociate identity disorder and then thought BPD was more in line nothing she's done makes sense i don't know what's true or what isn't true and there's so many things that are out of context and exagerated.

I feel like trying to reason with someone who is in this mindset isn't possible even accepting full blame for everything wouldn't phase her in the slightest i don't think this is about "Me" and what i've done or said i think this is about "Her" and being unstable and her views and actions being all over the place.

What her husband can do is support her and try to work through it with her which is what i've done from the start but no matter what i did it wasn't good enough and i never had any peace it was a constant struggle.

When we entered into this marriage we were both going into it committing until death do us part with those vowels it sets the foundation to overcome any obstacle no matter how big or small and she's forsaken her vowels and marriage and i can't hold it together alone she needs to find God and be forgiving and soften her heart and show love to her husband which will allow me to make changes to improve things if she just stonewalls me and blocks me out completely what can i really do ?