Figuring out why I attract BPD

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Split from Listen to your gut (topic 357669) I am on my 2nd BPD relationship myself, the first one was a low functioning one, but mixed with NPD, I was able to recognize the signs, and left after the 2nd time she cheated on me.  However, my current one is with my first wife, who is very high-functioning, very loyal, and is likely mixed with a different PD, OCPD which masks the BPD quite well, except when she is triggered, and then all hell breaks loose.

   I find it amazing, now that I can recognize the signs, how predictable the behaviors are, once you look at it through a borderline lens.  I've been working with my own therapist on developing CRAYDAR (Crazy RADAR) where, like you, I can now detect crazy with my gut feeling.

   I also am working with my therapist, on figuring out why I attract Crazy, and I am attracted to Crazy.

[SaltyDawg]

Split from Listen to your gut (topic 357669) I am on my 2nd BPD relationship myself, the first one was a low functioning one, but mixed with NPD, I was able to recognize the signs, and left after the 2nd time she cheated on me.  However, my current one is with my first wife, who is very high-functioning, very loyal, and is likely mixed with a different PD, OCPD which masks the BPD quite well, except when she is triggered, and then all hell breaks loose.

   I find it amazing, now that I can recognize the signs, how predictable the behaviors are, once you look at it through a borderline lens.  I've been working with my own therapist on developing CRAYDAR (Crazy RADAR) where, like you, I can now detect crazy with my gut feeling.

   I also am working with my therapist, on figuring out why I attract Crazy, and I am attracted to Crazy.

[Skip]

  saltydawg

I also am working with my therapist, on figuring out why I attract Crazy, and I am attracted to Crazy.

It's an interesting proposition... do you think you disproportionately attract "crazy"? It's an interesting topic for this thread. 27% of the population has a mental illness or an addiction - so we are all trying to navigate life with people who have problems.

What are your thoughts?

[SaltyDawg]

  Skip

   Some responses to your questions and observations....

saltydawg

It's an interesting proposition... do you think you disproportionately attract "crazy"? It's an interesting topic for this thread. 27% of the population has a mental illness or an addiction - so we are all trying to navigate life with people who have problems.

What are your thoughts?

Yes, I disproportionately attract mentally ill.  Being mindful that +/-27% of the general population could have been diagnosed with a mental illness and/or addiction sometime in their lives, the number of women (and guys too - and I am non-judgemental heterosexual) who have hit on me would exceed this 27% by a factor of at least 2 times and perhaps as much as 3 times.

Also before I discuss the details, I think we need to define what a mental illness is.  If it is having codependent traits, then over 90% of the general population has a mental illness - I am included in this group.  Whereas, if it is someone who is/was institutionalized (prison and/or mental hospital), then this number dips well below 10% of the general population to around 4% depending on which set of peer-reviewed statistics you look at - for my 1st degree relatives this percentage is coincidentally 27% or 7x the national average for those who have/are institutionalized, but should be higher if the therapist didn't drop the ball on my wife's most recent suicide attempt.  To me, mental health statistics are a bit ambiguous at best, I will discuss more a little later for my individual experiences with my pwBPD.  

In the past two years, the amount of time I have been familiar with mental health issues, I have had a dozen women hit on me (while I was wearing a wedding band, and two were in front of my wife one of which made my wife uncomfortable, and the other my wife was oblivious, but found out as my son told her as we were about a hundred feet away from my wife at the time).  I'd say all but 3 of them likely had some kind of mental issue going on (75%).  Two told me that they were BPD when I asked or they volunteered the information (one of each) which is 17% of the women that hit on me.  One was bipolar, several indicated they were ADD/ADHD, and most of them overshared with me when I talked to them.  At least 2 were married that volunteered this information, I didn't look anywhere but their faces.  

I did notice some interesting themes among these women, I am in my mid 50's, most of these women were in their lower 40's, all but one were very physically fit, and appeared to be much younger than they indicated and had that 'curated' look of being extremely attractive - women I would normally consider 'way out of my league' as I was very much obese; however, I was doing exercise and/or very involved with my children at their sports - these are mostly attended by the mothers, rarely by the dads (except on game day).  I can only guess having the appearance of being an involved dad made me attractive to them.

I encourage everyone to be very careful in a situation like this to not cast yourself as a the victim.

Why?

Because laying the blame on the other person or the situation, generality means we don't learn the life lesson we need to learn - we just get wounded and move forward fearful of becoming a victim again. There is something to learn here for life going forward.

Skip, I agree with you on this for the most part if one remains in a state where they are a professional victim, much like the borderline does, and blames everyone else for their issues.  If one stays in the role of a 'victim mentality' this can be very damaging, where no personal growth can occur as the blame is shifted to the persecutor.  However, I do feel that it is important to acknowledge the fact that we have been attacked in one or more abusive ways, whether this is physical, emotional, psychological, verbal, etc.  When I was in this scenario, other than the physical abuse of being hit, punched, and kicked, I didn't even realize I was being abused until a therapist pointed it out to me.  I don't like being the victim, even though I had to come to the shameful realization that I was indeed the victim even though I thought I had too much pride to admit being one at the time.  

When this realization hit me, I was in a state of denial - how can this woman whom I had dedicated my life to, do this to me.  Then it made me angry, and it ultimately led me to how not to be the victim.  It wasn't until my 2nd cluster-B relationship did I realize that the common denominator was me, not them, as to why I attracted this kind of woman.  This led me into doing a deep dive with my therapist on what my own issues were that contributed to this.  Eventually we looked at being codependent after looking at all of the stuff that my wife and exgf had transferred and projected on to me, that I eventually started to believe as my sense of self had eroded to that point.

I was quite naive as to what was happening to me; however, now that I know, I can set up effective boundaries to no longer tolerate such behaviors, and the consequence is me 'gray rocking' my pwBPD and not rewarding her bad behavior with a reaction of any kind from me.

In effect, I have become my own rescuer from the drama triangle by ensuring that 'all abuse must stop' which is my guiding mantra for setting boundaries with my wife.

I'd be careful ever using the anas platyrhynchos (duck) diagnostic method.  . It could be any number of things (Histrionic Personality Disorder).

For our purposes, assigning a Junguian personality type or a DSM diagnosis only has value for us in selecting effective tools to communicate with a person (wife, son), to understand the long term prognosis of the relationship (dating, marriage), and helping a person get care.

If our date is on a MILF website or boiled our pet rabbit... the message to us is clear enough.

When we do try to label it, we need to consider. The DSM comittee warns of the dangers of using the DSM as a cookbook. We should use it, just very carefully. It's important to not to lose perspective.

Perhaps my statement is an oversimplification, where if 100% of the listed symptoms are met then it is likely they have that PD.  I still believe this, as it applies to what I have witnessed in my own life and others.  However, I do see your point, and for diagnosis I use the Merck Manual Professional Edition, even though I not a licensed professional, nor have I studied to be one (yet) - I am a fellow human being who has had more than one BPD in their life, and wants to understand why, and what to do about it.

The link for BPD that includes the symptoms from the DSM 5 along with a host of additional information can be found at https://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric-disorders/personality-disorders/borderline-personality-disorder-bpd

There is a general description, etiology (origins), Symptoms & Signs, Diagnoses (including differential diagnosis - in order to exclude conditions with similar symptoms, none of which were 100% on their respective symptom lists), and Treatments for BPD.

Perhaps my statement was a bit too generalized, and should have included excluding the differential diagnosis, when I made my statement.

Complicating Factors When we encounter high conflict or destructive relationship behaviors it is important for us to know that the problems can be caused by a broad range of things that look a lot a like:

    immaturity,
    short term mental illness (e.g., depression),
    substance induced illness (e.g., alcoholism),
    a mood disorder (e.g., bipolar),
    an anxiety disorder (e.g., PTSD),
    a personality disorder (e.g., BPD, NPD, 8 others),
    a neurodevelopmental disorder (e.g., ADHD, Aspergers), or
    any combination of the above (i.e., co-morbidity).

How often is "any combination of the above?"   In an NIH study of 34,653 people*, of those that had clinical BPD,

   74% also had another personalty disorder,
    75% also had a mood disorder, and
    74% also had an anxiety disorder.

That may be high. Studies peg the number to be 32% have, or "have had" a mental illness.

I personally do not think those percentages are high, I am very familiar with this study.  The comorbidity of BPD (Cluster B) and OCPD (Cluster C) is around 5% in that study when processing the raw inclusive data.  However, I have also reviewed two other studies that indicate a comorbidity of OCPD and BPD of 35% and 50% when specifically studied, up to a 10x or 1000% difference depending on which peer reviewed study is examined.  Let me know if you want links to those two additional studies?

My wife has 100% of the symptoms of OCPD and BPD.  OCPD requires 4 of the 8 symptom groups to be met, and BPD 5 or more of the 9 symptom groups to be met.  My wife has all 17 (8+9) symptom groups between the two with the sole exception of the individual symptom of self-mutilation.

Some interpreted recent studies to suggest that BPD grew from 1.6% of the population to 5.9%, but this is a misunderstanding of the numbers. I'm was in the group of "some". 1.6% of the population qualified for a BPD diagnosis in 2023 (for example). 5.9% of the population will qualify for a diagnosis some time during their lifetime.

My understanding of the study that you previously mentioned was that 5.9% of both men and women at the time of the study were diagnosable; however, only 1.6% of the population were actually diagnosed with BPD (different set of statistics), this differential in percentages strongly implies that roughly 3 out of every 4 that are diagnosable as being undiagnosed; which in turn implies the large numbers of people on here that have a person with undiagnosed BPD, including myself, in spite of exhibiting extremely similar behaviors to people having a person with a diagnosed person with BPD.


Now I am going to circle back to a statement that I made that you highlighted:

Just like in any profession, especially the mental health profession, as many of these professionals are dealing with their own mental health issues (I personally estimate around 85%), it is prudent to become an expert in the area that adversely affects you, as it is helpful to be able to push back on these professionals and ask pointed questions to help you better understand what is going on.

After having dealt with dozens of mental health professionals over the decades, I deliberately ask them what brought them to their field - the ones who answer the question are usually there because they are the care-taker type and they have had family member, a spouse, and/or children with mental health issues - they either directly or indirectly indicate that they are codependent.  There are about 15% who are obviously working on their own mental health issue(s) and using their profession to help them along they either admit it, or are extremely evasive in their answer but is very obvious.  Then there is about 15% who are outstanding, as they don't have anyone close to them with issues; but several have some kind of physical handicap that precludes them from other professions, they might be NPD, who knows, but they exude confidence.  This is from my personal experience and observation.  Likewise the number of patients a therapist has is a disproportionately large percentage of people with mental health issues by two or more orders of magnitude, as people who are generally speaking are mentally healthy will not seek out such therapy.  Likewise professionals who are in the mental health field will seek out mental health because of their own struggles with their own mental health issues and/or the issues of a close family member.  This observation has been validated by my current individual therapist, who is also an instructor.

The mental health professionals are human too, and can make errors, especially when they see a curated version of your pwBPD.  For couple's therapy with a pwBPD, I strongly suggest correcting any false narrative, otherwise the therapist will assume it to be fact as you didn't disagree.  Also therapists with their own mental health issues who are sympathetic for whatever reason to your pwBPD will often do countertransference on you.  

Drawing a parallel to conventional medicine, I have personally been misdiagnosed with osteoarthritis when in fact I had a torn meniscus, two totally different issues with the same physical symptoms that were not discovered until a MRI was performed.  Likewise, many with mental issues are also misdiagnosed as well - the person who has the best observation are the ones who live with them.  My primary pwBPD is my wife, and she has been diagnosed with Anxiety and Depression, the most common misdiagnoses for BPD according to Randi Kreger's book "Stop Walking on Eggshells", 3rd edition, which has an excellent assessment tool in it, for lay people such as ourselves.

People want to be heard when the confront us and one good response is to let them get it out and ask questions and confirm what you are hearing them say without judgement.

Then suggest that you need a day to think about all that has been said. Then come back, confirm what your heard again, and then discuss her concerns and what you think you need to say.

It takes discipline, but it works.

People struggle with "walled up" for a lot of reasons and can interpret it to mean something very different than what it actually means.

Again, I agree with you.  When my pwBPD who wants to be heard, becomes irrational, I do something similar, and I suggest we take a break from the conversation, and resume it the following morning, when I know she will have an emotional reset, which for her is a sleep cycle.  This way she is back to baseline and can reason, and a mutual understanding has a better chance of happening.

I am must apologize on being a bit long winded, as this only scratches the surface of what I have learned - if you, or anyone else reading, have any specific questions, we can discuss this on a new thread, as I don't want to hijack this one.  I feel we are all hear to learn from our past mistakes, learn new things to make our own lives and the lives of our loved ones a better place to be in.

Take care, and be sure to do self-care whatever that looks like for you.

SD

[Skip]

Take care, and be sure to do self-care whatever that looks like for you.

Thanks, Salty Dawg.

my 1st degree relatives this percentage is coincidentally 27% or 7x the national average for those who have/are institutionalized, but should be higher if the therapist didn't drop the ball on my wife's most recent suicide attempt.  

I have had a dozen women hit on me (while I was wearing a wedding band, and two were in front of my wife one of which made my wife uncomfortable, and the other my wife was oblivious, but found out as my son told her as we were about a hundred feet away from my wife at the time).  I'd say all but 3 of them likely had some kind of mental issue going on (75%).  Two told me that they were BPD when I asked or they volunteered the information (one of each) which is 17% of the women that hit on me.  One was bipolar, several indicated they were ADD/ADHD, and most of them overshared with me when I talked to them.  At least 2 were married.,..

I think we need to define what a mental illness is.  If it is having codependent traits, then over 90% of the general population has a mental illness...

I personally estimate around 85% of mental health professions have a mental illness...

Before digging into this, I have a few suggestions:

Only quote statistics from peer reviewed studies published in medical journals and textbooks and be sure to be look at the multitude of studies, in chronological order, that measure the statistic. That is how researchers do it. There is a community rule on reliability of cvlinicval info posted.  ).

Don't use statistics to describe your guesstimate or personal experiences. Better to say I spoke with three therapists and two said their personal experience with mental health is what motivated them to study psychology. "85% of therapist have a mental illness", especially when there are peer reviewed studies suggesting 32%. It's also better to say 3 of my 10 first degree relatives (i.e., parents, siblings, children) were incarcerated or institutionalized.

Don't use statistics to describe others personal experiences or guesstimates or opinions. The "90% of the population is co-dependent", for example, comes from Anne Dranitsaris, who says "some people estimate... 90%". That is not a study. And the context of her comment is in a discussion about overuse of the term.

This will help us understand better what you are saying and it will make statistics leg ambiguous to you.

And I wouldn't, use the DSM (or other mental health resources) as a casual checklist. The DSM 5 committee warns non-professionals who are inclined to do this that it will be misleading. In short, any of us could find a personality disorder to describe the behavior of anyone/everyone we are in conflict with. That is not to say that it is not valuable in understanding a family member or someone that we know well and have observed behaviors and actions for many years.

Mental health is not like physical health. In pregnancy it is either yes or no and there is a definitive test. Most complex mental health diagnoses are derived by a process of elimination after lessor, more treatable diagnosis don't work. It's very different than medicine.

So your family has multiple consecutive generations of personality disorders (before you and after you), your wife has a personality disorder, a significant number of the members of your immediate family have been incarcerated or institutionalized, you have some contact with mental health professionals and are of the impression 8 out of 10 are mentally ill, and you are a 50-year old married father and are getting propositioned 10-12 times a year by younger, attractive women and in some cases men, who you would consider "out of your league" - most of which appear to have a mental illness.

... and you are wondering why you attract "crazy".

At first glance, two things come to mind:

• is there something about the area where you live that would account for this? I don't think this is at all typical of the audience here?
• are many of these people clinically diagnosed or is it primarily your assessment of them?

[EyesUp]

In recent years, I've given this question more attention.

In my experience, going back to my teens/high school, I've perceived that I attracted a certain type in romantic and non-romantic relationships... I thought of this type as excessively emotive, prone to over-sharing, naive. I did not find it attractive, and generally would not engage. But I would occasionally wonder: Why is this person communicating this way to me?

I think it boils down to: These folks exist, with or without me. They will emote to anyone, not just to me or people "like" me. The difference might be: Who lets them in?

For me, keeping this front and center shifts responsibility for my half of any relationship entirely to me. I accept responsibility for who I choose to build a friendship - or any relationship - with.

Yup, I can be a good listener. Yup, I've got some empathy and can spot when someone is happy or not - and validate those feelings. Yup, individuals with a weak sense of self, but a lot of pent up emotions, find this attractive:  Someone is actually listening and validating - without even saying much!  Yet, even with some awareness of this dynamic, I still married someone in which I perceived a significant imbalance to be a complimentary fit. I was way off - and I need to own that, and how I not only accepted it, but contributed to it.

Sure, we can apply any framework to explain attraction and general compatibility - myers briggs, zodiac, pheromones...  add the overlay of shared experience, values, aesthetics, etc...  it's complicated!  Add a BPD curveball in which one half of the dynamic is not entirely authentic (can be hard to spot) - but is highly complimentary, mirroring interests, sexually "on"... and we're off to the races!

At this point, I feel increasingly able to hold myself accountable - to recognize my own insecurities - and also to get back to my pre-marriage / adolescent instincts ("why is this person overcommunicating? is it appropriate? no? waiter, check please!").

Looking back, at least in my case, I think my willingness to engage in rescuing behaviors originated in my (surprise!) FOO with my single mother, who frequently emoted more than enough for both of us. Even now, with some objectivity on this dynamic, I need to keep my helper/rescuer impulse in check.

No wonder I perceived that emotionally-active people were attracted to me:  It's probably the single most familiar - and therefore deceptively comfortable - interpersonal dynamic I know...

[SaltyDawg]

EyesUp,

   Thank you for your insightful reply.

   I too can trace what I attract to a certain type of romantic relationship.  I remember doing an activity with a blind girl in a high school youth group.  She wanted to be friends, and when she asked about becoming friends, instead of saying 'no' like I should have - I did the classic 'maybe' in order to be kind to her - little did I realize, this 'maybe' gave her the green light to stalk me for the next several weeks - good thing cell phones were not available to the masses at that time, as it was limited to notes in my locker, and making sure she would bump into me in the hallways of the high school.

   Fast forward to 18 months ago, my current individual therapist has the same handicap.  When I ended my first session with her, something felt very off, and when I was at home later on that afternoon, I figured out my new therapist had the same handicap my highschool stalker had - it was eerie at first; however, after a two sessions, I no longer felt that way.

   With regards to oversharing, I always have felt it to be comfortable, why I haven't quite figured it out.  However, just recently (last year) I have come to realize that this is an unhealthy way of starting a relationship, I never figured this out until then.

   I do agree with you that "These folks exist, with or without me. They will emote to anyone, not just to me or people "like" me. The difference might be: Who lets them in?".  Before I would most certainly let them in; however, now I will listen and validate where I can (to be polite, and I am curious); however, I do not exchange contact information with them, and if I know I will be around them a bit (kid's practice), I will actively avoid them, by staying in my car, or reading my phone, and let them initiate contact

For me, keeping this front and center shifts responsibility for my half of any relationship entirely to me. I accept responsibility for who I choose to build a friendship - or any relationship - with.

I agree with this too, and have been able to keep the distance, so far.

Yet, even with some awareness of this dynamic, I still married someone in which I perceived a significant imbalance to be a complimentary fit. I was way off - and I need to own that, and how I not only accepted it, but contributed to it.

Only if you are self-aware, can you share how how you contributed to this?

Add a BPD curveball in which one half of the dynamic is not entirely authentic (can be hard to spot) - but is highly complimentary, mirroring interests, sexually "on"... and we're off to the races!

To me BPD is not a curveball, more like a line drive straight to my heart, they seem to actively seek me out, while two of them confirmed it, there were at least three others that set my CRAYDAR off and were likely also BPD - that were highly complimentary, and mirrored interests, I only engaged as I was waiting for my kid, and was bored scrolling on my phone - I enjoyed the attention; however, I knew not to go any deeper than superficial in these conversations.

At this point, I feel increasingly able to hold myself accountable - to recognize my own insecurities - and also to get back to my pre-marriage / adolescent instincts ("why is this person overcommunicating? is it appropriate? no? waiter, check please!").

I too will not engage beyond being superficial with 'small talk' and will asked them pointed questions, and it is amazing how much they share, as long as I know I have an easy out of never seeing them again.  It's like pushing a button, and watching them go.  I never had those instincts as an adolescent, as I never learned them.  Now that I have learned about human behavior, it is fascinating how these behaviors are, and how damaging they can be without having learned the skills that someone should have showed me in highschool.

Looking back, at least in my case, I think my willingness to engage in rescuing behaviors originated in my (surprise!) FOO with my single mother, who frequently emoted more than enough for both of us. Even now, with some objectivity on this dynamic, I need to keep my helper/rescuer impulse in check.

No wonder I perceived that emotionally-active people were attracted to me:  It's probably the single most familiar - and therefore deceptively comfortable - interpersonal dynamic I know...

My brother had emotional issues, so my parents focused on him, while I felt neglected and was sent off to boarding school, versus him being put in mental hospital - back in those days insurance only covered a two week stay, and nothing more back in the 1980's.  So it was much cheaper for them to ship me off to boarding school, where some of my own abandonment issues stem from.  

While I do not have full blown boarding school syndrome (https://caldaclinic.com/boarding-school-syndrome-the-childhood-trauma-of-privilege/)  I do have a few of those issues as a result, specifically:

Fear of abandonment and/or separation anxiety  (only when it is real, and not imagined)
Lack of trust
Fear of failure
Eating disorders (obesity, not a traditional eating disorder of control like anorexia)


I am wondering if anyone else reading this find that they have had repeated BPD relationships, or other similar observations?

As always, take care with self-care, whatever that might look for you.

Take care.

SD

[Turkish]

SD,

Regarding codependency, and speaking as a member here, this tends to be over diagnosed here. I'm similarly struggling with my tween daughter trying to auto Dx herself as OCD...

My PsychD older and much experienced therapist stopped me back in the day: "you're not codependent. I'm treating a woman who truly is and codependency manifests itself in every single relationship in their lives."

The DSM is also Western, USA centric. If 90% of the people in a culture exhibit certain traits, then those traits aren't am aberration; they're the norm. This can be confusing for those of us in cross cultural relationships (like mine).

As for whom we're attracted to, what I learned in at risk youth mentoring is that "you don't know what you don't know." What's familiar and easy is just that. My mother is DX'd BPD (she admitted to me when I was 41!).  What she and my ex have in common is being DX'd with Anxiety and Depression. It was familiar to me to be attracted to my ex emotionally, because that was what I knew how to do easily.

It's not necessarily sexual. My mother was attracted to many people similarly, and it often got her into trouble: mostly "daughters" whose mothers were trouble. My mom was likely trying to proxy reparent herself to "save" them.

Sometimes I think, though I don't like myself going there, that my mom "rescued" me from foster care in part to bolster her self worth or prove something to The Man. She adopted me, and interracial handicapped child, in the early 70s as a single mom when that was controversial.

[crushedagain]

I had to read up on the oversharing thing because I am not super clear on what that is. It said that it is not necessarily the content of what is said, but to who it is said and oftentimes the volume of sharing. Can anybody provide more insight into this?

The only thing I can think of is when I met a woman a few years ago who I didn't particularly care for, and who told me of a time in her life when she was going to kill herself, sharing how she planned on doing it down to the very details. That was really awkward and unsettling. I had only been talking to her a few days. 

[SaltyDawg]

So your family has multiple consecutive generations of personality disorders (before you and after you), your wife has a personality disorder, a significant number of the members of your immediate family have been incarcerated or institutionalized, you have some contact with mental health professionals and are of the impression 8 out of 10 are mentally ill, and you are a 50-year old married father and are getting propositioned 10-12 times a year by younger, attractive women and in some cases men, who you would consider "out of your league" - most of which appear to have a mental illness.

... and you are wondering why you attract "crazy".

At first glance, two things come to mind:

• is there something about the area where you live that would account for this? I don't think this is at all typical of the audience here?
• are many of these people clinically diagnosed or is it primarily your assessment of them?

Thanks for responding.  I think you may have misunderstood a bit, so I will clarify, for a re-evaluation.

On my wife's side, her grandfather, dad's side, was a serial womanizer with a temper, her dad has a temper, she has a temper and shows all symptoms of BPD, our son has a temper and shows 6 symptoms.  Our daughter does not.  No-one other than our daughter is diagnosed with a mental health illness, she has AN.  Wife is (mis)diagnosed with both anxiety and depression and is on medication for both and is being treated for 'anger management issues' by her therapists.  There are excessive amounts of estrangement on multiple levels on her side of the family.  (wife's grandmother, both sides, brother, SIL, all nieces, nephews, majority of uncles and aunts on both parents sides), and our daughter is also threatening NC once she turns 18 (I have worked with our daughter, and now it seems it will me LC).  Some of these relationships have been reconciled, most have not.

On my side my mother an immigrant was strict disciplinarian, my dad also an immigrant a caretaker, my bio-brother was diagnosed with ADHD in the 1980's and was temporarily institutionalized - my parents determined it was less expensive to send me off to private boarding school for 10/11 grades and they kept him at home to keep him out of the institutions as I was my brother's primary target of blame, which shifted to my parents when I was shipped off to boarding school.  My brother estranged our side of the family until my mother was killed in a car accident and then reconciled.  My wife and I have chosen to go NC with the serial killer, as I no longer want to deal with his drama in order to maintain contact with the serial killers child.  However, the serial killer's child has gone NC with us, primarily due to the actions of one of my step brothers whom I did not grow up with.

I was an adult, 26 yo when my mom died in an accident, my dad remarried when I was 29, one of my step-brothers whom I did not grow up with is the sociopath (technically undiagnosed, but labelled by psychologytoday.com as one) serial killer and step-mom has some NPD traits, total time spent in step-brother's immediate vicinity before he was arrested is slightly less than month in total, over the span of 15 years when he was arrested in the middle of the 2010's.  I first met him at my dad's 2nd marriage.  Again, I did not grow up with the step mom; however, I have had a lot more contact there, between one and two years in aggregate since age 27 as an adult child.

I have no mental health diagnosis other than some codependent traits most of which have appeared once I was with my wife, and that is only because I requested one, but I was told, if it wasn't for the issues with your wife and children, 'I would not need to see you more than once per month at most'.  However, I did attract a technically blind stalker in high school, that went nowhere and one other summer relationship that was not sexually active (other than kissing).

Also being a service academy grad, I was required to do a psych eval prior to entrance, and I passed without issue.

My 1st girlfriend lasted 10 years from college until her mother broke us up, as I didn't want to marry her, she made the moves on me first.  2nd girlfriend was a rebound, and was a BPD/NPD nightmare that wound up on the front page for her mental health issues who seduced me on the internet when I was in a TV show chatroom.  3rd girlfriend, who is now my wife, was a setup by my wife's former boss, who also happened to be a close relation to my step mother.  Both #2 & #3 seduced me on the first date; however, I did not resist, and went along for the ride.

So, while I was growing up, until I was in college, my only exposure to mental health issues was only my bio-brother, at the time I was interviewed by a handful of his shrinks one time each, not a good impression as they bought into my bio-brother's narrative and accused me of the same lies he was saying - not cool.

Now for clarification on the hits...

The one gay hit was in a gay bar, in a resort area, one of my step brothers has an alternate lifestyle and was out with him at the time, this was pre-covid, and not counted in the dozen.  At the time, I just indicated I was 'straight' and that was it.  In the past two years 1/3 (4) of the hits occurred in resort areas.  1/4(3) the hits while I was exercising on my e-bike around my home in a very scenic area with several covered bridges which has a lot of cyclists (initially curious about the bike, then shift to asking going out for coffee/lunch, at which point I decline), the other 1/4(3) occurred while minding my own business taking my kid to activities (usually sit down next to me and start talking while I am distracted on my phone or listening to e-books on BPD).  All women were strangers to me, approached me, and started talking, most expanded into oversharing.  The two dBPD hits were in two different group meetings I attended, I think most were single with children, and I appear to be a little more affluent than most in the area, which doesn't help matters. 

I can understand the deviation at the resorts and group meeting hits, maybe the e-bike ones too as it is a novelty, but not the three that happened at my kid's activities (two sport's practices, and one card game competition).  Two of these conversations hinted they were not happy with their husbands and made it clear they were open to more, the other one wanted a father figure for their children.

Strangely enough it was 6 per year in 2022 and 2023, not a dozen per year (a dozen over two years).  So far, none this year, but then again, my wife has attended most of the sports practices more (part of her increased involvement as she has wound down her workaholism OCPD trait with therapy) and we have not yet gone to a resort this year, nor have I e-biked much as it has been too cold and icy.

Ask if you are unsure, as I would like an accurate assessment.

To summarize:

Other than my brother being dADHD, and possibly my mother being a strict disciplinarian, perhaps uOCPD, (reason given by my B for his NC), there are no direct genetic links to any mental issue on my side.  My mom's uOCPD would explain my attraction for my wife's uOCPD; however, it does not explain gf #2 - an internet rebound.

On my wife's side, while not diagnosed, there is at least 4 generations with anger management issues that I was largely unaware at the time of marriage, I knew about her dad, and that was it. 

On my step mother's side, I wouldn't call my step mom a NPD; however, my D and W do and I can see some traits, that are a bit less than the former POTUS Trump, probably less and not at a disordered level.  There is no doubt of the serial killer, as he has been analysed, from afar, by dozens of experts.

The care-taker people pleasers (ordered least to greatest).  My dad and myself will not go out of our way to please too much; however, my BIL, and my  Step Brother will go way out of their way and give you the shirt off your back and have been taken advantage of more than just their spouses..

So, while there is some issues on my side, I found a whole lot more than I bargained for with #2, while #3 is mild in comparison to the extremes of #2, but still is very volatile none the less.

So, yes, I am wondering why went from one dysfunctional FOO family member with ADHD, only to marry into a plethora of mental health issues by marrying into my wife, my dad marrying my step mom, and my extremely toxic attraction to GF#2 - that what I need help figuring out.

Let me know what you think.  Thanks.

SD

[boundriesrus]

I was literally just having this conversation with my therapist a few weeks back. I couldn't figure out for the life of me why I attracted this kind of crazy in my life. Why are both my business partners Cluster B's (NPD/ASPD and his wife BPD) and my wife possibly being High Functioning BPD, or my sister possibly being BPD, or my grandmother, or possibly my mother...and why did my dad just take it for so many years (and still does) as well as my grandfather...and it was one that day when I mapped it all out and started realizing I have been conditioned from birth. At 40 years old I am not realizing an entire pattern of behavior I never wanted to realize. Now I am having to make a ton of different life choices. Business partners and I are battling in court (caught them embezzling well over a million out of the small company we ran/started together, about to spill the beans with the wife about having to break up due to my PTSD from the sexual trauma she caused over the years, and now realizing my mother has a role in this too (of course you can't tell her that because she is never wrong and barely accepts responsibility for her actions...initallay at least).

I am sorry you are having to have the wake up call, but honestly, investigate the people around you, and ask, what am I giving these people that they don't have? Do I have co dependancy issues? Am I caretaker? Do I have low self esteem? Then take a big step back and evaluate your feelings. It is not an overnight journey and will take some time to figure it all out. Be easy on yourself during that time and learn to forgive those around you as well as yourself. The most important thing to learn from all of this, and to prevent things like this in the future, is setting STRONG boundries. It's a good way to keep yourself protected but also it weeds out those who don't respect the boundries that are given. If that is the case, move on and don't look back. You have to be a little bit selfish from here on out (at least that is what it will initially feel like...but again you were conditioned most likely to feel this way and you are no "reprogramming your brain" to think in a better manner). Stay true to yourself, explore it in therapy and trust in your gut instincts.

[livednlearned]

I am wondering if anyone else reading this find that they attract "Crazy" by having repeated BPD relationships, or other similar observations?

I wonder if maybe the question itself is a red herring.

Years ago I was in a session with my then therapist and referred to my ex-husband using the name of a well-known fictional villain.

She asked me, What comes up for you when you call him that?

It took me aback. I was trying to regain a feeling of control after not having any.

It made me feel superior. It gave me a bit of power.

After years feeling powerless and uncertain and unsafe, it's understandable that someone would want to feel good.

I also felt worse. That kind of superiority is shallow and requires near constant feeding. This man was the father of my child. He is a man more deeply traumatized than me.

It requires putting someone else in a one-down position to get in a one-up position. Someone else has to be worse.

My therapist felt I was using a short-cut to feel better (one-up position) versus staying vulnerable and focusing on the raw emotions, the scared ones that tend to go back to FOO.  

In the same spirit, I wonder what comes up for you when you refer to your wife as crazy?

[SaltyDawg]

In the same spirit, I wonder what comes up for you when you refer to your wife as crazy?

LnL,

   As always, you have thought provoking questions. 

   My short answer that I am fine calling my wife "Crazy" - if my wife is good - I am "Crazy" for her, as she is "Crazy" for me in a good way.  If my wife is bad, she often refers to herself as the "Monster" or "Lunatic" which I find has a lot more negative connotations than the word "Crazy".

   Since today is Valentines Day today, I would often see the sugary but chalky 'sweetheart' candy have  "Crazy 4 U" emblazoned on these candies in a very affectionate way.  Also, there have been many songs either in their title and/or lyrics that use the word "Crazy" in loving way as well.

   There are the expressions of "Crazy Good" and of course the more negative one of being "Crazy Bad" unless you are an 80's child, like myself, where "bad" is actually meant "good" - I think the word "Crazy" without modifiers pretty much embodies a borderline whether they are crazy in a good way or crazy in a bad way.

   One of my coping mechanisms is by using 'gallows humor' or 'dark humor' as I find it better to laugh at myself for being in this situation.  For me using a play on words that has both a very positive aspect, as well as having a very negative aspect which all depends on the current mood cycle of my pwBPD.

   However, I can see your point, that the word "Crazy" can be seen in a negative way; however, it can also be seen in a very positive way too.  I must apologize, if I have offended you, LnL, as that was not my intent.

   In fact, I have used the word "Crazy" well before I was involved with anyone with any known mental illness by stating in my college yearbook "Everyone is crazy, in their own way!"  which includes describing myself way back in the 1980's, and even now in certain aspects.

   I have deliberately chosen a word that can mean many things, just as a pwBPD can be many things.

   I hope that I haven't offended anyone else, and if I have, please accept my apology.

   Take care.

SD

[SinisterComplex]

setting STRONG boundaries. It's a good way to keep yourself protected but also it weeds out those who don't respect the boundaries that are given.

This is something I have mentioned here many times throughout the years. When you are able to set strong boundaries you will quickly learn who is true and authentic and who is not. Your social circle will probably grow smaller. The hard part for many to learn is the concept that respect always comes first. Focusing on having someone like you more than having them respect you is the mind set that leads to weak boundaries.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[Augustine]

In the same spirit, I wonder what comes up for you when you refer to your wife as crazy?

He might have made an honest assessment of his partner’s mental health.

Crazy is defined as mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a wild or aggressive way.

Secondly, Deranged is synonymous with Insane which carries this definition in a state of mind that prevents normal perception, behaviour, or social interaction.

I can only speak for myself, but I can assure you that what I experienced from my partner quite easily falls into these definitions.

[EyesUp]

"Yet, even with some awareness of this dynamic, I still married someone in which I perceived a significant imbalance to be a complimentary fit. I was way off - and I need to own that, and how I not only accepted it, but contributed to it."

Only if you are self-aware, can you share how how you contributed to this?


Sure. I aspire to be self-aware, so glad to give it a shot...

Likely in response to my super emotive mother, I went in the opposite direction - I've been described as impervious. I suspect that this aspect enabled me to go quite far with my uBPDxw, as she didn't perceive much from me - where she may have provided disordered responses to others who exhibited the slightest hint of a smile or a frown, with me there just wasn't much to react to.

And, much as I withdrew from my mother, I also withdrew from my uBPDxw - a sort of safety retreat. Somehow the dynamic with my uBPDxw seemed different and exciting, yet underneath there was a current of familiarity in which I thought that my ability to listen, and empathize, was helpful - even appreciated.  However, over time, that consistent pattern became painful to my uBPDxw - she perceived that I was somehow in a power position and that she was in a weaker position - and from there, resentment flourished.

Finally, many years ago, I occasionally reciprocated my uBPDxw's frequent discussion about her family by opening up about my own. It turns out that those discussions influenced how my uBPDxw felt about my family - and about me - in unintended ways, many years later.  My x eventually played back certain discussions about my mother, etc., with extraordinary (to me) distortions, and more resentment toward me. That may have been part of a black cycle prior to the final discard, or it may have been fermenting for many years, I'll never really know.

The point is:  Early on, I thought we were developing a mutually supportive dynamic.  My willingness/ability to listen without judging or triggering my x's worst instincts ended up contributing to her resentment. I was accused to trying to control her, control everything, and cast her as a failure, a victim.  In essense, she accused me of causing her to feel the way she felt (empty, anxious, depressed), simply because I listened to her describe her anxiety and depression, along with parent resentments, and sibling jealousies, many many times.  

I could go on, but maybe that helps to paint the picture?  In short, I contributed to the dynamic simply by participating in the relationship. For a long time - repeating many patterns.  e.g., on occasions when something felt off, I remained impervious. Of course, if I had confronted my x in the moment, the relationship may have ended much sooner - instead, the relationship was maintained, in part, by my own codependent / avoidant behaviors.  Among other things.

At one point, early in the relationship, my x commented on the qualities that I possessed that she liked and found attractive. I didn't see this as love bombing - people in healthy relationships should be able to express affection with compliments or acknowledgment.  However, as our relationship reached the end, my x often cited those same attributes as things that were unacceptable to her. Without going into a lengthy discussion about what changed, I will simply say:  The constant in the equation was me...

[SaltyDawg]

one that day when I mapped it all out and started realizing I have been conditioned from birth.

For many of these things, I agree with you; however, for other things, I think it is as result of the trauma of being with our pwBPD.

I am sorry you are having to have the wake up call, but honestly, investigate the people around you, and ask, what am I giving these people that they don't have? Do I have co dependancy issues? Am I caretaker? Do I have low self esteem? Then take a big step back and evaluate your feelings. It is not an overnight journey and will take some time to figure it all out. Be easy on yourself during that time and learn to forgive those around you as well as yourself. The most important thing to learn from all of this, and to prevent things like this in the future, is setting STRONG boundries. It's a good way to keep yourself protected but also it weeds out those who don't respect the boundries that are given. If that is the case, move on and don't look back. You have to be a little bit selfish from here on out (at least that is what it will initially feel like...but again you were conditioned most likely to feel this way and you are no "reprogramming your brain" to think in a better manner). Stay true to yourself, explore it in therapy and trust in your gut instincts.

Boundaries-R-Us,

I have already been exploring this within the context of therapy for the better part of a year.  This topic was brought up in a different thread, and I expanded on it there, which in turn was moved here after it branched out, so I am comfortable enough to talk about it in the open, as I had come the realization, I am on my 2nd BPD relationship, where I was previously in an extreme situation (she has dozens and dozens of criminal charges of abuse and neglect spanning several years after I left her after she cheated on me) and was the cover girl, in a very unflattering way, for a website on abuse, that big pharma shut down nearly two decades ago.  When I was with her, I did not feel abused, other than when she crossed my only relationship boundary of being unfaithful.

I do agree with boundaries - and I like your alias, btw - and all of these boundaries revolve around a central theme of "all abuse must stop".  For the most part, I am already there.  Right now I am doing a deep dive on patterns and characteristics of codependency and caretaking - I am using the same set of patterns for each, where the distinction of codependency patterns originates from childhood trauma, for me, this was in highschool.  Whereas, caretaking patterns (of codependent patterns) originates from trauma being with a borderline.  Caretaking patterns are unique only to my romantic borderline partners and would likely disappear if we were to break up as they appeared only after I became involved with a borderline, whereas, codependent patterns exist across all close relationships since childhood.

I have compared the trauma inculcated from my wife as being far greater than facing a terrorist, as defined by our government, with a machine gun pointed at me.

I do believe that setting a very strong boundary is only one of many steps, albeit a very important step to break the cycle of intimately loving PD'd partners.

I do appreciate your perspective, and most of it resonates, and also believe that boundaries are only part of the equation to avoiding attracting these types of people.

As we are all involved in high stress relationships, please make sure you fill your cup with self-care whatever that looks like for you.

Take  care.

SD

[Caesar46]

We dont attract them we become their victim. Most of the time they are the only one's around us respond to our love needs so we fall for them.

A normal person rejects the other one if they are not feeling any attaction but BDP's and NPD's love hunting us. They know we have huge emptahy and this is the crack they slip in.

[Turkish]

I once called my then not ex crazy what I thought was colloquially, like you'd say to a buddy. She stopped and glared at me, "don't EVER call me crazy!" *yipes*

In retrospect, this aligns with the feelings of a person with extremely low self esteem with BPD traits or not: feeling worthless and unlovable, self-critical from the avatars of memory who caused such pain.

Years ago, the family therapist my ex abandoned me to told me, "there's nothing wrong with being kind." This was in the "divorce" stage. If I had to simplify it: why would I want to kick a puppy? It's a puppy, in thrall to its puppiness."

Having said that, maybe I'm trying to one up myself like livednlearned said  

[crushedagain]

We dont attract them we become their victim. Most of the time they are the only one's around us respond to our love needs so we fall for them.

A normal person rejects the other one if they are not feeling any attaction but BDP's and NPD's love hunting us. They know we have huge emptahy and this is the crack they slip in.

I am a sucker for them. I now realize I have mistaken their excessive early attention, oversharing and love-bombing as legitimate interest rather than the manipulation and neediness it really was.

I guess from now on I need to go after the women who are much more guarded and only slowly open up over time, because perhaps their love with actually grow instead of myself ending up with these types who cannot love me and discard me.

[Turkish]

I am a sucker for them. I now realize I have mistaken their excessive early attention, oversharing and love-bombing as legitimate interest rather than the manipulation and neediness it really was.

I guess from now on I need to go after the women who are much more guarded and only slowly open up over time, because perhaps their love with actually grow instead of myself ending up with these types who cannot love me and discard me.

This is the conundrum, and I still struggle with this: being attracted to people who are ultimately emotionally unavailable.

[Skip]

Figuring out why I attract Crazy?

You don't.

First, I would use a word that supports clear thinking like "emotionally available and willing to value me" (not crazy). And I would rephrase the question to be something like, "why am I willing to overlook significant personal issues in another person to have access to emotionally availability and being valued"?

Others have said this above in different ways.

So, we conducted a survey a few years back asking members what kind of emotional state they were in when the got involved with their "BPD" or "BPD-ish" partner. Overwhelmingly, members described being in a situationally vulnerable state; recently broken up from another relationship, recently divorced, lost a job, learned of a health issue, financial problems, dealing with the death/loss of someone dear, etc. Others described longer term vulnerabilities such as lack of confidence, feeling unlovable, feeling old, substance abuse problems, underachievement. Feelings of be  undervalued. Wounded.

Vulnerable.

Only a small percent were "on their game".

People with BPD undervalue themselves and tend to seek relationships with some level of imbalance in their favor. They learn from experience that they will be more appreciated in this type of paring (e.g. younger women with older man, extrovert with introvert, "hot" with "average looking", sexual, etc.)

This is why we encourage members coming out of these relationships to do their best to not see themselves as victims and be again be vulnerable. This is not to say that the relationship and the problems were their fault. Hardly. But it is to say that need based, compensating relationships which we think our solving our problems may just be trading one problem for another.

Being idealized by an attractive partner when we are in a weakened state, is a powerful force. And for our partner, having someone idealizing them back is equally powerful.

[SaltyDawg]

We dont attract them we become their victim. Most of the time they are the only one's around us respond to our love needs so we fall for them.

A normal person rejects the other one if they are not feeling any attaction but BDP's and NPD's love hunting us. They know we have huge emptahy and this is the crack they slip in.

I can see how it would appear that we are their intentional victim; however, I do not buy in to the victim mentality as they are only doing what they instinctually, at a subconscious level, know how to do in order to have people give them attention they crave.  If anything they are their own victims of their own mental illness.  However, i do agree with you that they are the only one's around at that time to respond to her need for love and attention which in turn causes us to fall for them.

I thought I was a normal person, and when I met up my wife, I thought she was very attractive and seemingly ticked all the right boxes, almost every single one of them.  It was a setup from people I trusted.  She seemed "too good to be true" - I was smitten, and fell for her head over heels.  There was one early on, I asked about it, and the flag disappeared.  Since I thought she was too good to be true, I did pull out a relationship book series each one containing 1,001 questions, if it's a three book series, i had her answer 2/3 of the questions while I answered 1/3, and we agreed on 3,001 of the 3,003 questions - a nearly flawless mirroring of my desires prior to getting married.  In retrospect, there were plenty of yellow flags, didn't feel right in my gut that I met the perfect woman.  To tell you the truth I really didn't learn about red flags or yellow flags until about a year and a half ago.

However, the exgf, was a different story though, I met her on a web chat room for a TV show, and when I went out to see her for the first time, I should have run, and I didn't, as I had compassion, pity, sympathy, and empathy for her situation, so it lasted a couple of years (as I am a very loyal, too loyal), a couple years too long.  This was a painful learning lesson, that cost me around $50,000 and two years of my time.  I tried to make the situation better, and fix things, which only made it worse.

In summary the uBPD/uNPD/+exgf it was painfully obvious that she was defective the moment I met her in person; however, my uBPD/uOCPDw not so much, until the love bombing ended and was slowly replaced with a nightmare with the first indication of something seriously wrong after I had fully committed in the relationship 2 weeks after a 3 week honeymoon after getting married (5 weeks after marriage).

[SaltyDawg]

I am a sucker for them. I now realize I have mistaken their excessive early attention, oversharing and love-bombing as legitimate interest rather than the manipulation and neediness it really was.

I guess from now on I need to go after the women who are much more guarded and only slowly open up over time, because perhaps their love with actually grow instead of myself ending up with these types who cannot love me and discard me.

I too am a sucker for them. On my first borderline relationship I would agree with that. However, I was very much interested in the second one, as she seemed to have ticked all the boxes and what I was looking for.

If and when the relationship with my wife ends, i am not sure if I want to seek out another relationship, at least for the first few years after it ends.  In the meantime I am working with my therapist in order to identify my own issues, and work on those, so I can learn and grow from my mistakes in order to be a better person and not repeat this same mistake so I've done in a past regarding any kind of relationship.

Interesting that you mentioned women who cannot love you and then discard you. My wife as indicated that she does not love me, however, she cannot discard me. She did attempt it and when I called her bluff she couldn't do it.

My exgf did a discard cycle, I only came back to collect my stuff that she had held hostage in her possession, as I had already moved on when she tried to recycle about 5 months after the discard.  I suspect my wife knows that I don't put up with recycle attempts, hence the reason she probably did not follow through on her bluff.

I am hoping my wife can become self-aware on the last few sticking points, to return to the person who I fell in love with - I doubt that can be done, so I am staying just long enough until both children age out and 'launch' into life before changing my own personal scenery.

[Skip]

I guess from now on I need to go after the women who are much more guarded and only slowly open up over time...

Not sure this is the lesson to learn. 

If you drove your drove through railroad crossing in a white truck and were hit buy a train, would the lesson be "don't buy white trucks"? Would white trucks be a red flag? Would not having a white truck makes you safe from trains?

This is why Red Flag strategies don't work. 

Its not what to avoid in a women, it is what intrinsic values do you seek?  It is about learning how to read and understand people.

... And of course if the tell you on the first date they have herpes, had a lesbian affair in college, have 2 DUI's, and cheated on their third husband with his best friend - its a pretty good indication that they don't manage life consistent with your values.

[once removed]

Red Flag strategies
...
"love bombing"

"i shot my ex husband" is a red flag, one that might even justify "running for the hills", and certainly should be avoided  . "i love you so much, youre my soulmate" is a mating ritual that no one is bound to reciprocate, but if you do so repeatedly, is a strong indicator of what you are attracted to.

[SaltyDawg]

"i shot my ex husband" is a red flag, one that might even justify "running for the hills", and certainly should be avoided  . "i love you so much, youre my soulmate" is a mating ritual that no one is bound to reciprocate, but if you do so repeatedly, is a strong indicator of what you are attracted to.

Well, even that particular isn't so obvious, my step brother, a different cluster-B PD with ASPD - sociopath variant (did not grow up with him) used the statement "My previous wife died in an accident", he didn't bother to mention it was a 'staged' accident.  Who is going to question that kind of statement?  A surgeon didn't question it, and now she is in the same place as his first wife.  A third woman was being groomed by the time law enforcement caught up to him.

Regarding the 'soulmate' comment - my first BPD girlfriend tried this, it didn't work, and I did not reciprocate, she discarded me.  However, the 2nd one, much higher functioning with different comorbidities also said the 'soulmate' thing, a lot later in the courtship phase, by that time I was drawn in, hook, line, sinker, and rod, and I was hooked as I was very naive, and too nice as well and didn't think anything was wrong at all - lesson learned, I won't make that mistake again.

[Turkish]

Then that's your value now, and boundaries should align to your personal values. IMNSHO, there is no such thing as "soul mates;" it's magical thinking. Those who believe disagree. That is part of their values toolbox.

[SaltyDawg]

Then that's your value now, and boundaries should align to your personal values. IMNSHO, there is no such thing as "soul mates;" it's magical thinking. Those who believe disagree. That is part of their values toolbox.

Turkish,

   Thank you for sharing.  While I do like the concept of 'soul mates', and I bought into it one (out of the two times).  At the time I was still quite naive, and bought into it.  I know better now, and will be keeping it 'real' as I move forward and not deal with the 'magical thinking'.

   Since you are an admin here for some time now - I am wondering if you know of a thread that deals with the topic of 'magical thinking', so I, and others, can get a better understanding of this, as I have been burned by it.

   Thanks, and be sure to do self-care.

    Take care.

SD

[Turkish]

Turkish,
   Since you are an admin here for some time now - I am wondering if you know of a thread that deals with the topic of 'magical thinking', so I, and others, can get a better understanding of this, as I have been burned by it.

I've mentioned it in the past wrt my mother (get rich quick schemes) and my ex (that and her powers of positive thinking and the like) but I didn't find any threads that discuss the concept in depth. If you want to start one, I'll participate.

[zachira]

I find that the kind of people I attract and allow into my inner circle reflect where ever I am in my personal development. For most of my life, my inner circle was mostly filled with disordered family members and disordered people And I was extremely  disordered myself. Now I am low contact/no contact with most of my disordered family members and do my best to set the boundaries I need to protect myself from disordered people while continuing to develop the self-esteem and self-respect I need to have healthier relationships with myself and other people. I have very few friends and the ones I do have are healthy people who challenge my disordered behaviors that I learned from growing up in an extremely disordered large extended family. Overall I am a happier healthier person while at times still very challenged by having poor boundaries with the wrong kind of people, though mostly the disordered people do not want to be around me when I set healthier boundaries. My number one rule is I do not continue social relationships with people who show no genuine interest in me or who abuse others. The business relationships are much more complicated. Right now my neighbor is furious with me because I refused to bow down to her demands to join her in abusing the President of the HOA who does his best to be democratic and respectful to all the owners. I have been too nice to this neighbor for years while keeping my mouth shut about her disordered behaviors. She has been mad at me since Christmas, apparently because I sent the HOA President a present to thank him for all the work he does for the HOA. When we have a history of disordered relationships, we will sometimes get triggered by being the target of a  disordered person, which sometimes is partially our fault for having poor personal boundaries, and other times not our fault at all as we had no control over the situation. I see the biggest challenge is not to be so triggered by the interactions with disordered people while continuing to work on our boundaries. We are all a work in progress on this site. What I respect about most of the members on this site is their willingness to own their part in what happens to them while also being open to the fact that some people do not have the capacity to have reciprocal healthy relationships.