Re: Well looks like divorce is finally happening Pt. 3

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Is it ever going to stop?  Or will she continue to ask for things? It seems somewhat quiet right now.

It is possible that your kids' mom will remain an entitled person for the foreseeable future. Ask me how I know 

What can change is how you respond to her requests/demands.

How does she currently ask for things right now -- text? phone call? email? in person? other?

How do you currently respond?

This can get better -- with changes on your end.

[kells76]

Is it ever going to stop?  Or will she continue to ask for things? It seems somewhat quiet right now.

It is possible that your kids' mom will remain an entitled person for the foreseeable future. Ask me how I know 

What can change is how you respond to her requests/demands.

How does she currently ask for things right now -- text? phone call? email? in person? other?

How do you currently respond?

This can get better -- with changes on your end.

[ForeverDad]

A pwBPD usually has a sense of immediacy - "I need it right now and you have to comply and help me fix my problem right now."

You may have to tell her she will have to wait for the process to finish.  Just because she says it is urgent and must be done now, much of that is likely her sense of belated immediacy - and her expecting you to immediately jump in to fix her sudden problem.

Reminds me of when years ago I manned lobby reception desks in a couple NYC hotels.  Passersby would walk in and ask to use a restroom.  Sometimes even a mother with kids jumping up and down.  "Sorry, the restrooms are in the rooms." I'd be asked, putting me on the spot, where do you go?  "I go through a locked door in the basement for staff facilities.  Why don't you go across the street and use a nearby restaurant?"  But they would say the restaurants said their restrooms are only for their customers and they'd have to buy something.

I would turn to my less experienced coworkers and enlighten them, "While we want to help people, there are limits and there are times when we can't let other people transform their problems into our problems."

[ChooseHappiness]

I would turn to my less experienced coworkers and enlighten them, "While we want to help people, there are limits and there are times when we can't let other people transform their problems into our problems."

I sometimes work with paramedics and they have a similar saying: "The patient is having the emergency, not you." While it sounds callous, the point of the saying is to remind the paramedics to stay calm and keep perspective so they will continue to operate at their best. Someone else's panic/emergency can be infectious and distort your own thinking if you're not careful.

[Notwendy]

It is possible that your kids' mom will remain an entitled person for the foreseeable future. Ask me how I know 

There could be an emotional aspect to this. A sense of entitlement is one possibilty. Another is the need to have people do things for her- a need to be rescued. My BPD mother will ask people to do things for her that she can do herself- it's not the task she needs- that's a part of it- but the need is to have someone do it for her.

I don't comprehend it but emotional needs aren't rational. She will call me to make a phone call for her- but if she can call me, why can't she call who she's trying to reach. She doesn't need help making the call- she needs me to be doing something for her. There's the sense of urgency too and she's emotionally distressed with that need.

I don't think your reply "I am not your husband" is being mean. She made her decision. You aren't obligated.

[mikejones75093]

Sometimes we remark, the disordered one may abandon us before we can abandon them.

Question for you.  Seems you went through the wild court process and ended up with custody.

My divorce is final.  She won't see then until August and when she does her time is extremely limited.  2 days every 2 weeks. 

So my question is, what's next?  Is she going to be peaceful and leave me alone or does she keep coming at me?  I quit talking to her because there is no need to right now, she blamed my daughter for a few things and really upset her.

Now she's found a new man and is acting mature?  She actually apologized to my daughter and told her she was wrong, she's never apologized to me.  She's being very calm and acting almost too nice.

In my opinion there is no way this lasts but I will take the peace for now.

What happens next?  She loses it on the next guy and comes after me or will she be civil?  No contact except about the kids, take her limited time and leave me alone?

[ForeverDad]

The divorce is final.  Your lawyer can advise you on the specifics of your state and local court's typical process and time frames if changes to the order need to be made.

That said, courts are reluctant to have custody and parenting schedules jump back and forth.  Court is overwhelmed already with their existing caseload and lawyers are expensive.  The court will not expect you two back for a while except for somewhat less major items like Contempt of Court petitions and the like.  In other words, as Lived&Learned calls them, parking tickets.

If your spouse would like to make major changes, that would require filing for a Change of Circumstances motion.  That would *not* include her rebounding back after her current new relationship goes sour.  There would have to be a real basis for a change.  More or less, all you have to do is weather any such storm.

After two years in a temp order as alternate weekend dad, I exited divorce with shared custody and equal time.  Two years and a couple frustrating contempt of court petitions later, I told my lawyer life was still not improved from before and it was time to file for custody and majority time... Change of Circumstances.  I did get custody but our GAL (Guardian ad Litem, child's lawyer) "split the difference" and wanted ex to keep possibility of child support.  I went back again a couple years later and did get majority parenting time.

Based on my experience - your experience may vary - I suspect you're safe with the current framework for a year or two, perhaps longer.

In my opinion there is no way this lasts but I will take the peace for now.

Yes, she was distracted by another adult relationship, as sad as that sounds it was fortunate for you since the divorce was not a great hurdle.  It could have been worse, longer and more expensive.  There is no way to predict how long her new target lasts, but it will still be dysfunctional unless she is determined to do meaningful therapy and diligently apply it in her thinking, perceptions and overall life.

What happens next?  She loses it on the next guy and comes after me or will she be civil?  No contact except about the kids, take her limited time and leave me alone?

Again, hard to predict.  But it seems she's more focused on her adult relationships and less focused on the kids.  That may continue to be her pattern.  Some parents, whether fathers or mothers, are like that.  If that is her level of priorities - her comfort zone - let her remain an alternate weekend parent.  Do not feel *obligated* (overly "fair") to Gift her extra, although with the strong position you're in now you can let her have some exceptions here and there.  The kids need you to be their primary parent.  Any time you're in doubt, just remind yourself that the kids' welfare comes first.

The marriage is ended.  It is what it is.  Technically, you now have no relationship with her except regarding custodial and parenting matters.  So yes, she should leave you alone.  The only link is limited to the children.

[mikejones75093]

The divorce is final.  Your lawyer can advise you on the specifics of your state and local court's typical process and time frames if changes to the order need to be made.

That said, courts are reluctant to have custody and parenting schedules jump back and forth.  Court is overwhelmed already with their existing caseload and lawyers are expensive.  The court will not expect you two back for a while except for somewhat less major items like Contempt of Court petitions and the like.  In other words, as Lived&Learned calls them, parking tickets.

If your spouse would like to make major changes, that would require filing for a Change of Circumstances motion.  That would *not* include her rebounding back after her current new relationship goes sour.  There would have to be a real basis for a change.  More or less, all you have to do is weather any such storm.

After two years in a temp order as alternate weekend dad, I exited divorce with shared custody and equal time.  Two years and a couple frustrating contempt of court petitions later, I told my lawyer life was still not improved from before and it was time to file for custody and majority time... Change of Circumstances.  I did get custody but our GAL (Guardian ad Litem, child's lawyer) "split the difference" and wanted ex to keep possibility of child support.  I went back again a couple years later and did get majority parenting time.

Based on my experience - your experience may vary - I suspect you're safe with the current framework for a year or two, perhaps longer.

Yes, she was distracted by another adult relationship, as sad as that sounds it was fortunate for you since the divorce was not a great hurdle.  It could have been worse, longer and more expensive.  There is no way to predict how long her new target lasts, but it will still be dysfunctional unless she is determined to do meaningful therapy and diligently apply it in her thinking, perceptions and overall life.

Again, hard to predict.  But it seems she's more focused on her adult relationships and less focused on the kids.  That may continue to be her pattern.  Some parents, whether fathers or mothers, are like that.  If that is her level of priorities - her comfort zone - let her remain an alternate weekend parent.  Do not feel *obligated* (overly "fair") to Gift her extra, although with the strong position you're in now you can let her have some exceptions here and there.  The kids need you to be their primary parent.  Any time you're in doubt, just remind yourself that the kids' welfare comes first.

The marriage is ended.  It is what it is.  Technically, you now have no relationship with her except regarding custodial and parenting matters.  So yes, she should leave you alone.  The only link is limited to the children.

I know she should leave me alone now, I'm just wondering if she will.  She needs chaos and drama.

She text me today to blame me for her auto insurance going up.  She wrecked her car 3 times, don't know how that's my fault.

Just don't know if she's going to keep trying to file motions or calling the cops or now that the war is over does she just talk smack when she needs attention?

[ChooseHappiness]

I know she should leave me alone now, I'm just wondering if she will.  She needs chaos and drama.

She text me today to blame me for her auto insurance going up.  She wrecked her car 3 times, don't know how that's my fault.

Just don't know if she's going to keep trying to file motions or calling the cops or now that the war is over does she just talk smack when she needs attention?

My ex used to blame me for all sorts of things I didn't have anything to do with. My favourite was when she blamed me for the grass in the yard growing too slow. I had gone no contact with her by this point even though we were living in the same house, but I made the mistake of responding to that one. For weeks afterward, she tried to bait me into a fight by attacking me over the lawn because it was the one thing I had responded to her about, and she used the lawn as an excuse to discuss all my character flaws.

So sometimes it's not about them blaming you correctly or incorrectly for something that actually happened, it's about trying to goad you into responding so you're suddenly stuck in a conversation with them and they can unload all the chaos and rage inside of them upon you.

The best thing you can do is ignore it. Once they realize they can't engage you, they'll likely give up and move on to other targets.

[livednlearned]

Really good insight from ChoosingHappiness.

I wanted to add that separation and auto insurance was kinda important in my divorce and you mention she's wrecking her car.

I would call your insurance agent and make sure there are no loose ends there.

It was actually auto insurance stuff that made me speed up my divorce as much as possible. I was worried about my ex getting into a car wreck. He started to drink and drive according to a neighbor who saw the truck parked on the lawn one night.

You want to unwind these contracts as quickly as possible.

[ForeverDad]

I was paying for my ex's car insurance but at some time, probably early in the divorce process, I called my agent and was informed that if she was living elsewhere and her car was being 'garaged' away from the home then she would have to obtain her own car insurance.  I didn't have to take any overt action, industry policy was to simply send her a letter that she had to start her own policy once renewal time came.

[mikejones75093]

So just when you thought it couldn't get more wild.   Need some opinions....

So she has no possession until 8/2 then she gets every other sat and sun only.

She met a new bf online.  Known him 4 weeks.  He wanted her to ask my permission to meet the kids.  Whatever I don't control her.  She told me he has more integrity and more respect than any man she has ever met.   

I have been letting her see the kids here and there during the summer.  I go to pick the kids up and the new boyfriend was there.  He wsd awkward,  bad body language.  Definitely didn't get integrity and respect vibes.

I decide to research him and what do you know, he has a domestic violence conviction and is on a 6 month deferred sentence.  First offense so it's only a class a misdemeanor.  He pulled a gun on his ex wife.

I call my ex to tell her and she knew.  She didn't tell me because she thought I would get mad.  I told her I do not want the kids around him and she told me to screw off and I can't control her.  So I have told her no you cannot have them this week.   She told me starting August 2 I better not interfere with her time. 

So am I overreacting or do I need to contact my attorney and file a restraining order?  She told me she will bring him around if she wants.  She can't be single,  4 weeks in and all in love.  I contacted his ex wife and she said he was controlling and used to hit her.  When he found out she filed he got the gun.

What should I do? 

[Notwendy]

I think it's worth a call to your attorney to see what is possible to be done. There is evidence that he has been violent. Rather than a restraining order with this guy, they may be able to do something about visitation.

[jaded7]

She met a new bf online.  Known him 4 weeks.  He wanted her to ask my permission to meet the kids.  Whatever I don't control her.  She told me he has more integrity and more respect than any man she has ever met.   

I have been letting her see the kids here and there during the summer.  I go to pick the kids up and the new boyfriend was there.  He wsd awkward,  bad body language.  Definitely didn't get integrity and respect vibes.

I decide to research him and what do you know, he has a domestic violence conviction and is on a 6 month deferred sentence.  First offense so it's only a class a misdemeanor.  He pulled a gun on his ex wife.

I call my ex to tell her and she knew.  She didn't tell me because she thought I would get mad.  I told her I do not want the kids around him and she told me to screw off and I can't control her.  So I have told her no you cannot have them this week.   She told me starting August 2 I better not interfere with her time. 

She didn't tell you because she thought you would get mad. BS. She didn't tell you because she knew it was bad and that you would have a legitimate reason to keep him away from YOUR children. And even the "thought you'd get mad" part is true, it means she knows this is not a good situation, otherwise what is there to get mad at? 

So your ex is jumping into a new relationship immediately. Check. He is a the most respectful and _________ guy ever. Check. Hiding things about the guy from you. Check. Bringing the children around new guy immediately. Check. Accusing you of being controlling. Check.

The guy has a gun, and used it to threaten and has hit his ex partner. And this guy is pushing for connecting with your kids.

If it were me, it would be a very, very hard no to this guy being around my children.

[Notwendy]

Of course not all step fathers or boyfriends are going to be abusive to children but a risk factor for child abuse is an unrelated male in the home and this man already has a documented history of abuse and violence and threatening with a weapon.

This statistic and his history of violence is reason enough to not have him around your kids but also- may be something to help the case legally. Since you can't control your ex - possibly you can have full custody and she has supervised visits?

[mikejones75093]

She didn't tell you because she thought you would get mad. BS. She didn't tell you because she knew it was bad and that you would have a legitimate reason to keep him away from YOUR children. And even the "thought you'd get mad" part is true, it means she knows this is not a good situation, otherwise what is there to get mad at? 

So your ex is jumping into a new relationship immediately. Check. He is a the most respectful and _________ guy ever. Check. Hiding things about the guy from you. Check. Bringing the children around new guy immediately. Check. Accusing you of being controlling. Check.

The guy has a gun, and used it to threaten and has hit his ex partner. And this guy is pushing for connecting with your kids.

If it were me, it would be a very, very hard no to this guy being around my children.

It was a hard no from me.  So no I'm coercing and trying to intimidate and I'm being emotionally abusive trying to control her.  Last thing I want is my kids traumatized watching their mom get beat, and that seems like the best it can go with the potential for so much worse.

[mikejones75093]

Of course not all step fathers or boyfriends are going to be abusive to children but a risk factor for child abuse is an unrelated male in the home and this man already has a documented history of abuse and violence and threatening with a weapon.

This statistic and his history of violence is reason enough to not have him around your kids but also- may be something to help the case legally. Since you can't control your ex - possibly you can have full custody and she has supervised visits?

I think supervised visits it's hard to get.  Her fall from upper middle class to broke and after 3 weeks in love with a wife beater.  Can't make this stuff up.
Even if he doesn't hurt the kids, if they watch him abuse their mom that's traumatic.  Trauma messes kids up

[livednlearned]

She met a new bf online.  Known him 4 weeks.  He wanted her to ask my permission to meet the kids.  Whatever I don't control her. 

It's not about controlling her, it's about how your kids might feel.

What do you think about counseling to help you navigate this going forward?

I understand this is a rough time for everyone and it can be hard to hit all the notes. A therapist might be helpful to run things by so you aren't on your own with these decisions.

[Turkish]

If you learn that the kids witness DV, you need to report it.  Not exposing the kids to abuse is written into our custody stipulation. When the kids finally did witness it and I only knew that night mommy called me for help, I made sure that her H was out of the apartment and told her that she needed to tell then D3's child therapist, the appointment previously scheduled and two days later; else, I would have to report. She did, and I was there to hear it. She actually reported herself as the primary "perp," punching her H in front of the kids. He had gotten angry enough over her criticism that he'd thrown change (coins) at her. Mutual DV. She nailed him hard, too, as her whole hand was bruised. He also took the phone from her initially as she was calling me to come get the kids. That's a felony on his part.

Exposing minors to DV can be considered a crime even if one is the victim. I take that to mean a pattern, and taking no steps to keep the kids safe after even a "one-off." If you learn of incidents and take no action, you will be culpable of not keeping the kids safe, even if that sounds unfair.

You want to be proactive here, as anyone would want to be. The advice to talk to your T about this is sound, as a T is a mandated reporter and knows the law enough to give sound advice.

[Notwendy]

I agree- the kids should not be exposed to DV. I mentioned the statistic if it helps to make your case for protecting the kids stronger. I am not a lawyer but lawyers like to have facts and evidence and so the record of DV and the risk of abuse might help your case to protect them from their mother and her new BF.

[kells76]

Like LnL, Turkish, and Notwendy suggested, the #1 focus here is on keeping the kids safe -- not on fixing her, focusing on her choices, etc.

Getting educated about what is actually reportable in your area will be important, so you can operate from a wise and grounded place, not a place of uncertainty or overreaction or underreaction. Stuff I thought would be a bigger deal wasn't to CPS, and stuff I thought was peripheral got a lot of attention.

In my state, I was able to call the abuse reporting hotline and say I had a "hypothetical" situation to ask about. That meant that they would not initiate a report at that time; instead, the workers talked me through what I could expect in our situation, and whether the stuff I was concerned about was actually actionable (they called it "assignable", in that they assign workers to it to go investigate). It's sometimes a lower bar for initiating an investigation than we think, but a higher bar for a actual concrete consequences (at least, in our area).

I called them "hypothetically" at least twice. I also called our local DV hotline twice. DV hotlines are often anonymous and not "mandatory reporting" hotlines, so it isn't like if you call for advice, they'll initiate a report out of your control.

I would highly recommend doing both those steps -- asking the reporting hotline about a "hypothetical" situation, and asking the DV hotline for their feedback -- about the situation at your kids' mom's house. Get informed and educated so you can make the most effective choice for your kids' safety.

Additionally, like LnL and Turkish experienced, having a therapist involved can be crucial. I had told my T about stuff going on at the kids' mom's house and I had no idea it was actionable at the time. When she said "So I can make the CPS call for you if you want", I was totally caught off guard. We delayed for a month or two but when new info came up, it was at the point of if I didn't call then she was going to. I think it helped the situation a lot that I could tell CPS "Here's my therapist's contact info, she was about to report this" -- having a neutral third party involved to corroborate your concerns can be huge, so it isn't just "dad versus mom", it's "Dad has had professional third party support in this process and isn't going off the rails making a report, because Dad's therapist also was going to report".

Nutshell version:

Therapist/counselor for yourself and your kids
Run your hypothetical situation past the official abuse report hotline
Call local DV hotline

[Turkish]

Additionally, like LnL and Turkish experienced, having a therapist involved can be crucial. I had told my T about stuff going on at the kids' mom's house and I had no idea it was actionable at the time. When she said "So I can make the CPS call for you if you want", I was totally caught off guard. We delayed for a month or two but when new info came up, it was at the point of if I didn't call then she was going to. I think it helped the situation a lot that I could tell CPS "Here's my therapist's contact info, she was about to report this" -- having a neutral third party involved to corroborate your concerns can be huge, so it isn't just "dad versus mom", it's "Dad has had professional third party support in this process and isn't going off the rails making a report, because Dad's therapist also was going to report".

Not the incident I mentioned, but a previous one with different players, my T told me that he'd have to report what I told him, but it would be better if I reported. I left him a message at night and he returned it by lunch the next day and told me to call him back when I did, else he'd have to call at the end of the day.

[mikejones75093]

It's not about controlling her, it's about how your kids might feel.

What do you think about counseling to help you navigate this going forward?

I understand this is a rough time for everyone and it can be hard to hit all the notes. A therapist might be helpful to run things by so you aren't on your own with these decisions.

I've gone to counseling a lot and to be honest I don't know that it helps. Haven't found anyone that understands bpd since our original counselor from 2014 and she's retired

[mikejones75093]

Like LnL, Turkish, and Notwendy suggested, the #1 focus here is on keeping the kids safe -- not on fixing her, focusing on her choices, etc.

Getting educated about what is actually reportable in your area will be important, so you can operate from a wise and grounded place, not a place of uncertainty or overreaction or underreaction. Stuff I thought would be a bigger deal wasn't to CPS, and stuff I thought was peripheral got a lot of attention.

In my state, I was able to call the abuse reporting hotline and say I had a "hypothetical" situation to ask about. That meant that they would not initiate a report at that time; instead, the workers talked me through what I could expect in our situation, and whether the stuff I was concerned about was actually actionable (they called it "assignable", in that they assign workers to it to go investigate). It's sometimes a lower bar for initiating an investigation than we think, but a higher bar for a actual concrete consequences (at least, in our area).

I called them "hypothetically" at least twice. I also called our local DV hotline twice. DV hotlines are often anonymous and not "mandatory reporting" hotlines, so it isn't like if you call for advice, they'll initiate a report out of your control.

I would highly recommend doing both those steps -- asking the reporting hotline about a "hypothetical" situation, and asking the DV hotline for their feedback -- about the situation at your kids' mom's house. Get informed and educated so you can make the most effective choice for your kids' safety.

Additionally, like LnL and Turkish experienced, having a therapist involved can be crucial. I had told my T about stuff going on at the kids' mom's house and I had no idea it was actionable at the time. When she said "So I can make the CPS call for you if you want", I was totally caught off guard. We delayed for a month or two but when new info came up, it was at the point of if I didn't call then she was going to. I think it helped the situation a lot that I could tell CPS "Here's my therapist's contact info, she was about to report this" -- having a neutral third party involved to corroborate your concerns can be huge, so it isn't just "dad versus mom", it's "Dad has had professional third party support in this process and isn't going off the rails making a report, because Dad's therapist also was going to report".

Nutshell version:

Therapist/counselor for yourself and your kids
Run your hypothetical situation past the official abuse report hotline
Call local DV hotline

I'll do all of that,  but it would be nice to know they don't ever have to witness it.  He hasn't done anything to her yet that I know of, but the kids haven't been with her and they have only been dating for 4 weeks.  They are all in love and she is fighting extreme for him.   She has very limited possession.  Would be nice on her 4 days a month if she would agree to not bring him around.

[kells76]

I'll do all of that,  but it would be nice to know they don't ever have to witness it.  He hasn't done anything to her yet that I know of, but the kids haven't been with her and they have only been dating for 4 weeks.  They are all in love and she is fighting extreme for him.   She has very limited possession.  Would be nice on her 4 days a month if she would agree to not bring him around.

Do you think it's realistic that she would agree to that? If so, what's the most plausible way to get her agreement? If not, what's a path forward that's under your control and doesn't depend on her agreement?

...

BPD -- if it's involved in our situations -- is a serious enough mental illness that it impairs the pwBPD, even if a parent, even if a mother, from prioritizing their kids' safety over their own desperate emotional needs.

As far as I can tell, my H's kids' mom, in the middle of an active CPS investigation, chose to bring a (new to us) strange large man to SD16's extracurricular event, while also bringing her girlfriend. Does Mom have a girlfriend and a boyfriend? Who knows? What's most important to her isn't stability and safety for the kids (not introducing strange men into the mix), it's desperately trying to fill the emotional hole inside of herself. She will prioritize that over everything else and will do it in full view of everyone and will do it while CPS is investigating.

It would be nice if Mom didn't introduce strange males into the kids' lives. But there's a vast chasm between what I think would be nice if she didn't do, and what she'll actually do.

We don't have get to solve the problems we want to have, we get to solve the problems we actually have.

We wish we had the problem of "just get her to agree to do something responsible". We do not have that problem. We do have the problem of: "she is going to do irresponsible things that may impact the kids' safety and I can't stop her from doing those things". The way we solve that problem isn't hoping she'll be different than who she's shown herself to be; it's us getting educated and staying centered and investigating options to keep the kids safe that do not depend on her agreement or change or cooperation.

An aspect of why we called CPS was learning that the kids' stepdad (yes, he and Mom are still married, apparently) was driving unsafely and erratically with the kids in the car. It would be nice if we could get him to stop. Before calling CPS, I actually called around to about a half dozen people who had been mutual friends with us and them, trying to see if there was anyone trustworthy who could speak into his life and get him to change. He'd burned all those bridges and there wasn't anyone. So convincing him to change was off the table. What was under our control was initiating the CPS call, and also taking over all parenting time transportation. Sure, "on paper" we should be splitting it 50/50, but the kids' safety is more important than what Mom/Stepdad should be doing. We do all the driving now to make sure that as far as is under our control, the kids are not in a car with Stepdad. We don't control what happens on Mom's time, only ours.

...

One of the most painful things about our situations is that we cannot fully protect the kids from witnessing or being impacted by hurtful dysfunction.

What we can do is create an environment when they're with us where they feel safe in disclosing what's going on, and they feel like they can trust us to be the adults in the room finding solutions under our control. This is built through us managing our reactions/responses to what the kids say, and developing black belt level listening and validation skills.

What have your kids told you so far about the new guy and the situation at Mom's? How do you typically respond?

...

This is excruciating stuff and you are not alone.