Why do BPD's betray us nons?

[Magnum]

Hello everybody,

Is there anyone out there who can give an explanation or thoughts on the question: Why do BPD betray us nons?

I was betrayed in various ways (severe and more subtle ways) by my exBPDbf although I somehow got the idea that he is killing the thing he loves most.

Anyone relates?

 

Magnum 

[brucey]

Part of it is psychological, unconscious pay-back for hurt that they have felt in the past.

Part of it is a defense mechanism of preventing hurt in themselves, as when a person who feels homosexual urges but has been taught that homosexuality is horrible will lash out at gay people.

Part of it is that secrecy and betrayal are fun.  It gets the heart beating fast.

Part of it is that it feels good to hurt someone because it shows that you are powerful and cared about.

Part of it is unconscious recapitulation of past transgressions by their parents.  They are re-living the world that they knew.  It's like a criminal returning to the scene of the crime.

Part of it is just to do the action that they find fun, and the betrayal is a side effect.  They have poor impulse control and will simply act on their feelings at the moment.  If you get betrayed by it, that's just the way it is.  They can rationalize it by painting you black, for example.


Yes, I felt horribly betrayed.  My ex specializes in betrayal.  I believe she does it for many of the reasons I listed above, but her main reason seems to be that it is titillating and fun.  She has said that, and I believe her.  Betrayal is fun.

[dbg]

"Part of it is psychological, unconscious pay-back for hurt that they have felt in the past" and "Part of it is just to do the action that they find fun, and the betrayal is a side effect.  They have poor impulse control and will simply act on their feelings at the moment.  If you get betrayed by it, that's just the way it is.  They can rationalize it by painting you black, for example".

I find these two points to be the most relevant and most consistent with my experience.  The one and only time she cheated during a long distance relationship was during a week vacation, not visiting me.  When i visited her a month later, I finally experienced what it was like to be painted black. (it only happened for a day here or an hour there before) And the end of the week, she cried in her bed all night, saying she ruined everything.

They act on impulse, betray the ones they love, ruin there lives and everything else around them, paint you black to cope and grow into bitter, unhappy people on top of there BPD. Thar is just my 2 cents.

[Krakatoa]

One thing to consider is that whilst we see it as betrayal... .they do not see it as so and it's unlikely, without  treatment that their devastating actions are ever reflected upon.

If they're not happy and 100% fulfilled 24/7, then , chances are ... you'll be blamed for the "lack" of anything they deem unsatisfactory.

Keeping someone else happy, or feeling responsible for someone else's 'happiness' , whilst they blame you for most , but probably not all of  their problems is simply impossible.

Your own core identity will be changed and probably for the worse.

BPD's have no concept of this as they don't clearly see their "other", the "soulmate" they say you are.

Relationships to them are a business transaction. It's supply and demand.

When demands do not match supply ,they immediately cleave to another whom they think will give them them the satisfaction they so desperately desire.

They do it as easily as as a Texan execution order.

Hence, the endless, new partner, new best friend or job swapping. Hence the person you THINK you knew,morphs, changes an entire identity or set of moral values in order to "become" someone else's  ideal .

They cannot and refuse to deal with the truth... .

As we all know... the truth bloody well hurts.

[lasagna]

Brucey;  As a parent of a BPDd, I feel compelled to respond to your statement "Part of it is unconscious recapitulation of past transgressions by their parents.  They are re-living the world that they knew.  It's like a criminal returning to the scene of the crime."

You certainly are an erudite person so I hope you will appreciate some edification from my perspective. Recent research indicates that BPD is more the outcome of faulty brain chemisrty than parental abuse. Of course, there are exceptions but I have a vested interest in correcting this misinformation. It's difficult enough to deal with a BPD child but worse to feel that society still faults the parents. It is similar to old theories of "shizophrogenic" mothers as well as mothers wou caused autism because they did not attach properly to that one particular baby. Both have been proven to be bogus theories, but it is a shame that those mothers were made to feel guilty for their child's impairment.

My daughter was absolutely never abused, yet she has betrayed me twice by publicly, falsely accusing me of mistreating her.

I do agree with your other points and I hope you take this in the spirit it is being sent. I'm sure you understand why I am a little touchy about this topic. thank you for your consideration. Wishing you well.

[JoannaK]

lasagne, I can't speak for Bruce, but I think that many here do realize that often BPD just "springs up" due perhaps to some combination of genetic influences and/or faulty brain chemistry.  I do agree very much that anyone who winds up with a BPD person needs to realize that their tales of horrible abuse at the hands of parents or prior lovers may be all in their head.  Don't jump to the conclusion that your poor, abused BPD person has in fact been abused... .  unless you see some real evidence of it.  For instance, another reasonable family member confirms the abuse. 

Please remember that most nons wind up being considered as abusers by the BPD person in their lives, even if they have done absolutely nothing abusive.

[brucey]

lasagna, I am sorry you were bothered by what I wrote, and I am glad that you added clarification.  Indeed, I wrote my response quickly and phrased each possible explanation for betrayal with the term "Part of it," by which I meant that it occurs in some cases, not all.  There are many cases of people who have been neglected and/or abused by their parents who then later act out their hurt by recapitulating their childhood experiences.  However, as you pointed out, lasagna, there are also many cases of borderlines and others with personality disorders in which the parents did not commit any harmful acts at all toward the child. Obviously, there are different routes to BPD, just as with other disorders.  I'm sorry I wasn't very clear, and I am happy that you added the nice explanation.

[bewildered2]

to feel good, why else?

everything they do is to make themselves try and feel good.

and if you have done something that to them feels like betrayal, then hey presto, betraying you serves two purposes: revenge and feeling good. pretty powerful.

b2

[Magnum]

B2!

I think you are right. In the end they betray themselves because they destroy every good thing in their lives. It might be an unconsious way of dealing with intimacyissues from their part. I mean it seems as my ex just had to destroy in order to kill his fears and feel strong again. He was so afraid of losing me. I think he could not stand it any longer to feel vulnerable. He had to get back his power and controle. This made him destroy our relationship and the intimacy between us.

We can go on but they get stuck with losing people over and over. Being left alone by significant people in their lives. So sad.

Magnum

[bewildered2]

Magnum,

If you read "I hate you don't leave me" you will find all the answers about Borderline behaviour. It will blow your mind to learn how really seriously screwed up they really are, how they "think", what they do and why they do it, how they excuse themselves after the fact, and end up blaming everyone else for their own piss poor and abusive behaviour. How they can not trust, and unfortunately can not be trusted, how they can (conveniently) block out or forget what they have done, how they forget you exist when you aren't around, the list goes on and on. Dishonesty, etc., all par for the course with a Borderline. It is terribly sad how bad it really is, and how hard it is to recover. What they live with every day just trying to be happy while masking their utter unhappiness from those around them has to be very very difficult. No wonder they drink, indulge in drugs, risky sex, etc., they just want to feel good for a moment, to escape from the misery of their existnece, and struggle every day to do so. Think about the future? They can't even do that because they are struggling with today.

Read the book and you will realize just what an unfortunate mess a Borderline really is, and it will help you get away.

B2     

[Venus Humm]

The Scorpion and the Frog

One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.

The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.

Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.

"Helloo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"

"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.

"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"

Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"

"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"

"Alright then... .how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.

"Ahh... .," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?"

So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.

Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.

"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"

The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.

"I could not help myself. It is my nature."

Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.

Self destruction - "Its my Nature", said the Scorpion... .



I think of this fable when I think of my ex.  May have even read it on bpdfamily first.

Venus Humm

[Magnum]

B2 and Venus,

Thanks for repying. Interesting frog/scorpio story quite symbolic isn't?

Was your XBPD a male? I wonder if I hate you don't leave me isn't a female version of BPD and not very much comparable to male BPD. What's your opinion about this?

Magnum

[bewildered2]

"I hate you don't leave me" is a book about Borderline Personality Disorder.

The explanations apply to anyone with the disorder, male or female.

B2

[Alex]

A quote from a character in the HBO TV series 'Six Feet Under' talking to his his GF with whom he just recently lived together and gf has sex with an ex-lover. Gf tries to explain Bf that she has an issue and told him about it. He says: "it is not sex, it is the betrayal... THAT'S your x-x-x-xing addiction".

Opened my eyes!

[JMR]

While I agree wtih Alex that the betrayal often triggers unresolved issues for nons, such as the need to prove themselves and to be validated as worthy by being re-accepted, this of course doesn't explain why people with BPD do it.  I believe that at least for my x, and perhaps for many others, it arose from her own ambivalence about men and her perceived role in relation to them.  Though hidden behind a mask of haughty arrogance, she actually felt weak, powerless and dependent upon (perceived) powerful men to make her feel competent. She tended to pick men with various sorts of outward achievements or superficially desirable qualities -- very good looking, rich, "powerful" jobs, etc. (I was definitely not the first two, but more-or-less the third, as a lawyer/professor).  But she was also aware of the dependence, despite her prideful posturing.  She reacted to her dependence by blaming and resenting the object of her dependence, as if it were some sort of mean trick that the other person engineered. All of it much the way an adolescent child might need his parents, yet be ashamed of that need and rebel in response.  So, when the shame of feeling dependent rose to an intolerable level, she would lash out at the man, devalue him, and thereby "prove" she wasn't dependent at all. Didn't hurt if in these situtations the man reacted (as I often did) by acting weak and placating, attempting to get her back.  "Now who's needy and powerless," you could almost hear her say to herself. But of course the feelings of power don't last too long, as she starts to feel alone, and knows her behavior may actually drive the person away. Then the cycle can't be repeated. (I'm reminded of when my 8-year-old son ran away from home the first time, angrily denouncing his parents, and walking off a full block, until an angry dog started barking at him.) So, her point proved, she would come back -- but with no apologies, mind you -- and both people would be re-charged for another cycle of the craziness. The betrayal was, to put it simply, necessary for her to maintain her feelings of self-respect. It isn't necessary for someone who feels competent to get through life on their own, without pathological dependence on someone else -- something I'm trying to learn how to do and feel, and that she continues to avoid like the plague, living now with the "powerful" man she ran to as soon as she dumped me.  She thinks she's doing something new.

[lasagna]

All, this thread is incredibly helpful to me. I really appreciate the perceptions of people who have been thru this experience. The focus is on us as NONs who are trying to make some sense of BPD's betrayals.

Much of what nons usually do is ruminate about all that's happened because it's unfair to us.That just feeds into the same brain chemistry patterns. this is a more corrective approach to alter brain chemistry.

Once again, thank you for all your thoughtful insight. I feel the benefits already! the feel-good chemicals in my brain are attracted to this thread.

my brother is a neuropsychiatrist so we all talk about brain chemistry like other families' talk about football.

I did not start this thread but I feel like I did.     

[bewildered2]

lasagne, I can't speak for Bruce, but I think that many here do realize that often BPD just "springs up" due perhaps to some combination of genetic influences and/or faulty brain chemistry.  I do agree very much that anyone who winds up with a BPD person needs to realize that their tales of horrible abuse at the hands of parents or prior lovers may be all in their head.  Don't jump to the conclusion that your poor, abused BPD person has in fact been abused... .  unless you see some real evidence of it.  For instance, another reasonable family member confirms the abuse. 

Please remember that most nons wind up being considered as abusers by the BPD person in their lives, even if they have done absolutely nothing abusive.

This has got me wondering about something... .my ex-BPGF told me stories about the terrible abuse she and her three sisters suffered at the hands of their parents. When I tried to discuss my BPGF's suspected BPD with her sister and mentioned the childhood abuse she said "what abuse?". So I'm now left wondering if it was a cover-up (by the sister) or a complete fabrication by my ex-BPGF? The ex also told me that she had left a previous boyfriend because she "fancied someone else" but another time that she left him because he used to "beat her up for looking at other men". No doubt she now refers to me as the ex-boyfriend who beat her up too. Now that I realize and accept that she is a very dishonest person, despite always emphatically claiming to be very honest, I wonder if she really did suffer childhood abuse or not? Any thoughts? Could it all be a lie?

B2     

[Magnum]

Hi all,

My ex has been terribly abused I have met the parents they are horrible. His smother was alcoholic and very cold and controling no real empathy... .his father is terrible abusiv also cold and not able to give love.

He ran away for intimacy I still believe this and he pushed me away. It is horrible this disease.

It seemed as if something in his head got wired to kill the thing he loved as if he had to protect himself through pushing me away. Sort of automatic respons.

But this might be a too romantic approach from me also. He might be a monster. I am still very confused and go up and down between these two options.

In the end it doesn't matter and I have to protect myself and cut of al contact.

Magnum

[JMR]

My x initially told me she had all but ceased having any contact with her father because he had sexually abused her as a child.  During various discussions we had during the years I knew her, this got watered down to vague recollections of her father staring at her or attempting to stare at her while she was in the shower.

Who the hell knows whether anything happened anywhere but in her mind.  I met her father several times.  For whatever it's worth, he seemed pretty ordinary though somewhat detached or reserved.  But then, he knew of her allegations, which I suspect would make anyone just a bit detached. "Here's my dad. You know, the one who molested me as a child. . . ."

I know that her claims of emotional mistreatment by some previous boyfriends were absurd.  The guy immediately before me was little more than a one-night stand, stretched over a few weeks.  She was outraged that he allegedly lied to her, concealing that he was married.  I later learned he did have a wife in another state, from whom he had been separated for years, but apparently did not legally divorce. He may have lied about that, but certainly didn't conceal other flaws, like his general promiscuity and recent and tenuous recovery from addiction to crack. I don't recall her asking him questions about his exact marital status when she threw herself at him because he was hot looking; that much I observed directly. She loudly asked me, in front of him, to come along the first time she had dinner with him, to "protect me from myself." Months later, she bitterly talked as if he had shamelessly seduced her and dumped her.  She actually dumped him, when he became depressed and relapsed on crack, and didn't have much time to be with her, what with being in jail and appearing in court all the time. 

[Corinne17]

This thread has been both fascinating and timely. I was just betrayed for the 4th time by my on again/off again BPDbf.

Part of how I got so close to him was that when we met he was hurting so very badly from the departure of his wife who he claimed had cheated on him.  As our friendship deepened, I now realize he totally sucked me in with these sad stories of ex wives and girlfriends always cheating on him and leaving him.  I also heard stories of a childhood that can only be interpreted as Armageddon.  Being a sympathetic soul, I now see how easy I let him manipulate me and my addiction to him took hold.

Since meeting him, I have also gotten very close to his sister. I learned the stories of childhood were all true. Both parents had issues with physcial abuse, mental abuse, substance abuse and one of the nastiest divorce stories I have ever heard of. Through this all 4 kids were neglected and traumatized. Each of them suffers from their own demons now but my bf appears to have suffered the most. Understanding his BPD roots has never been an issue.

What I am started to realize, however is that all his stories of being lied to and cheated upon were nothing more than distortions and projection. I have yet to hear a single family member or acquaintance corraborate any of his claims. What I personally have experienced is that on 4 different occasions in the last 2 years he has betrayed me by leaving me to be with someone else only to come back to me claiming nothing ever happened and I'm the crazy one who makes things up. It is always he who is lying and cheating yet the blame is never on him. Even when the evidence is ample and compelling, he will lie right to my face that he never did anything and that I am the one jumping to ridiculous conclusions. Worse, it becomes incumbent upon me to be the one to apologize!

His constant mantra is "I'm a man of honesty and integrity" and his brain refuses to accept any blame for the atrotious behavior that flies in the face of this statement. Instead, he simply projects all of his bad behavior on his partners who he splits black. It's all so very sad.

[Magnum]

Hi Corinne,

I recognize a lot in your story. The distortion oand blaming the partn the difficult childhood. The lies. We can only protect ourselves and run away from them ourselves. These people are able to hurt and betray you so deep it is unbelievable. It is devestating.

Fact is. In the end they hurt and betray themselves only because they cannot have intimacy. But we get hurt tremendously aswell.They are just afraid themselves and keep giving their own pain to others.They are really broken deep down and I think some cannot be "repaired" ever.

I hope you can see that this is his problem.

I am fighting everyday to think that it says nothing about me it's his problem. Although he tries to hurt me by saying he has found the love of his life now and is very happy with this other woman. It's all bullsht. He was afraid of the intimacy with me and had to run fast. This is the only way they can do it. Jump into other people instantly all to fullfill there instant needs while putting the blame on you. You are the one with the problem. Don't go in their anymore in this BPDhell. 

I am sorry you have to go through this horror. I know what you are going through.

Magnum

[lasagna]

magnum, your post was very validating for me. My story is different (BPD daughter) but the dynamics are the same. My BPD daughter has twice left us for the "perfect" family". It has been very hard for my husband and I to pick ourselves up from the ground and "dust off" the implications that we are horribly faulted parents. We spent months and months trying to remember what we had done. It is such a relief that we now know it is all her cognitive distortions. Sad, but a relief. I cannot believe we ever bought into it!   I hope others can learn from this little life lesson.

[dbg]

I keep hearing how they destory themselves. Do they? What do they have to destroy? My ex has no close friends, no hobbies, no real interests other than getting attention, a job way below her abilities, no sense of self or anyone else. What is there to destroy except everyone around you? Dont you need to have something in order to destroy it.

[Magnum]

Hi dbg,

Exactly the same with my ex... .don't has friends, job etc. He has a new gf to destroy though... .

By destroying and sabotaging theirselves they off course also hurt us. The fact is that what they do to us they show their relation to themselves. They don't value themselves and therefor also say x-x-x-x you to their relationship with us.

What they do to us says everything about their relation to themselves.

But you are right they don't have much we do so we have much more too lose.

Magnum

[JMR]

I've been thinking about this issue, and the general question of "how can they do this or that when they claim to love us," and I finally feel like I really understand -- They simply don't  believe how we truly care. As a result, they don't feel they are losing something valuable, or like they are mistreating or "betraying" us.  We find it hard to understand, because we know how we feel, and know we demonstrate it in countless ways. But this is meaningless to someone who is predisposed to believe they can't be loved. They don't see it, come up with alternative explanations, etc. They betray us, but not their conception of us.

[Magnum]

JMR,

I think you might be getting very close to understanding things. My ex said this once... .I'm afraid to believe that someone really cares about me... .that's why I push you away from me.

But I am still confused though because he might have said what I wanted to hear in his eyes... .

How did you come to this? What was your break-up story?

Magnum

[Frank Talk]

Funny,

In my last text to my xBPDgf before I went NC (last Friday) I said "... .I don't think you ever really understood how much I loved you and your girls". So JMR - I think you are right on the money. The projections about suspected infidelity, lack of love and so on were staggering. I didn;t know about BPD when we were together - if I did I may have approached things differently - but as it was I just was reduced to a pathetic mess - giving, giving, giving - love and all things practical and to not be believed was soul destroying. We'd only been together for a few weeks when she announced that "I will never be unfaithful to you" I thought it was a strange thing to say but I let it go over my head and then during our second last conversation she says "and I was never unfaithful to you" - well whooppee doo for christs sakes - what did want - a medal!

Crazy!

Frank Talk

[garyw]

I think now that much of the beauty is just part of an illusion to a certian extent.

Maybe what we wanna see.

I just did a shoot of my x about 2 weeks ago.

I had always thought her to be the most beautifull thing in the world.

She does have that classical natural type look and I guess beauty... .but it took me hours to touch them up. It was a lot of work that before I would have never thought necessary.

The magic was just gone.

[JMR]

Yeah, I think the only way we can "understand" why they betray us is to realize they really do not believe that we are trustworthy or that we love them.

It's hard for us to comprehend, because we have to 1) ignore what we know to be reality; and 2) imagine we instead see people and events and the nature of love through the filter of BPD.  Just the first of these is really difficult.  It's hard for us to understand how they could not know we love them, because we know our feelings so well, and believe we have shown them in our actions. But they of course don't know our feelings as we do.  As to what we've shown them, we have to ask, "What would someone with BPD expect love to look like?"  :)o we show them that?  If we don't, they don't believe it.

When my BPD said she loved me, she expressed it by idealizing me, and wanting to be with me all the time.  So, she would expect me to act the same way if I "loved" her.  She would also expect, if I loved her, that emptiness she felt would disappear. She had convinced herself that the right person would solve everything, and unconditionally accept her every behavior, respond to her needs without question. Not too surprising, since someone with BPD is emotionally a child, looking for a parent who never gave them the love they needed, when they couldn't care for themselves.  

Did I do this and thereby "prove" I loved her? At first, I did tend to accept all her behavior, respond to her every need, and was with her all the time. Of course, it still didn't cure her problems or remove the emptiness.  When she still put me down, broke up with me regularly, and I became resentful and exhausted, I started setting some boundaries, expected her to act like an adult. The last year or so of the three-year relationship, I was determined to have it be a good relationship, in which my autonomy was respected, or no relationship at all. I was not especially optimistic, but was truly hopeful just the same, that after all the turmoil, we both would grow and create something valuable.  

But in her eyes, this wasn't love -- I had deceived her, acting like I loved her, only to "turn" on her and treat her like everyone else.

As I set boundaries, she became more punitive, spiteful and manipulative.  Unbeknownst to me, she also was cultivating my replacement. And when the moment was right. . . she recited all my faults, said she was done because I wasn't "growing" like she was, blamed me for every problem in the relationship.  I didn't learn about the other guy until a couple of weeks later, when I called her.  My father died days after she dumped me, and I desperately wanted to talk to my "best friend" and "soulmate."  She curtly told me she was "seeing somebody else now."

Two months later, in the worst of several horrendous re-engages, she came to me and said she made a big mistake.  Told me she just hadn't been able to believe that anyone could truly love her. That she wasn't sure whether to try to be with me or to try to learn how to be on her own, but she knew she shouldn't be jumping into another relationship.  She sounded like she was having a sort of breakthrough, and I hoped she would face the challenge of being on her own, as her T. was urging.  It lasted a day.  Then she blamed me again, said I had destroyed her confidence, and ran back to him.

[Aloha Lady]

I know the betrayal hurts, but can I inject some levity?  My BPD daughter switches who is the "enemy" - sometimes it's the Dad, sometimes it's me.  This is her first Thanksgiving away from us and she just called to ask the Dad how to cook a turkey!  Guess she wasn't paying attention to me slaving away in the kitchen all the Thanksgivings of her life!

Interesting post - I was just about to fall into a well of self-pity about her call.  I love this site!  I always get a better perspective on things.

Much Aloha!