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Author Topic: Estranged from high functioning daughter  (Read 1729 times)
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« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2007, 05:20:29 AM »

Hi loving moms,

     Thanks to all who welcomed me.  It really made me feel welcome.  I feel as if I am lost.  I'm searching for my daughter but she is no where to be found.  I'm not sure exactly when I "lost" her.  I think it was gradual... .a little at a time... so slow that I didn't put everything together til now.  Actually until a few weeks ago I just thought she was a spoiled brat.  I thought she was self-centered.  I can remember even asking her once why everything always had to be about her.  Now I see there is a book by that title.  Reading for another day I suppose.

     Christabel, I read your post earlier but it struck so close to home that I had to get off the computer.  I too am grieving the loss of my daughter.  I have been so upset by her actions that I literally missed a day.  I was shocked to find out that it was Monday when I was sure it was Sunday.  It seems like my emotions change often now.  One minute I'm angry at her rejection.  The next minute I'm sad.  I wonder what it's like for her in her life.  I've tried to imagine what it is like for her.  Does she feel better that we are not talking?  Does she even think about it?  Is she distressed also?  There are times that I want to "hurt" her back emotionally.  That is not how I've ever lived my life.  I am not a revengeful person.  I always have believed that what goes around comes around.  Yes, my daughter is physically alive but she's not in my life.  I can't talk to her.  I can't touch her.  I'm not part of life.  Can't she see that I love her as much as possible.  I know she isn't thinking logically now.  To me it is as if she's dead.

     Lasagna... sorry to hear about the nightmares.  That shows how much stress you have been under.  I was too "keyed" up about my dtr  to go to sleep. I had packages shipped to my mom's address when I meant to send them to where I am.  I've been forgetting things a lot.  She is on my mind a lot.  The only thing that seems to help is for me to get busy doing something else.  That helps only for a little while.  In years past I used to cry in my sleep.  I hope you get some restful sleep soon.  I actually dreamed that I had two emails waiting from my daughter on yahoo.  No such luck.

     Mikki... thanks for the welcome.  Your post gave me a little hope that perhaps one day things may change with her.  I think I'm still in shock from realizing that she has most of the symptoms on the BPD criteria list.

     Ramona thanks for the welcome.  I'm sorry that we have "this" in common but perhaps we can comfort each other.  Hugs

     Grace... Your description of panic when your daughter would clean (or try to clean) her room rings true with me.  It's hard to describe her behavior.  It's almost as if she were having panic attacks.  I've had those before and can't imagine how hard that would be for a 15 year old not even knowing how to describe what she was feeling.  She would have trouble breathing.  We thought it was asthma.  She was even on inhalers.  We took her for a stress test to see if it could be something else.  Her heart and breathing were fine.  The person giving the test pulled my then husband aside and said he didn't think there was anything wrong with our daughter at all.  My now ex still doesn't believe anything is wrong with her.  That's another story in itself.  I can also remember many times when I thought she had left for school and find her later in her room asleep.  She would hide in her closet making me think she had gone to school and come out later. 

     Christabel... .I heard from my mom (through my niece) that my grandson took six steps today.  He is 18 months and behind in some things.  I worry that my dtr is not working with him enough.  The last time I saw him though he seemed to be doing well for his age but not talking much. To hear it from someone else though just reminds me how much I'm missing.  I'm missing stuff that I can never get back.  It hurts that someone else is hearing these things first.  I can relate.  I was thinking about dtr earlier today and boyfriend said something a little harsh and I just fell apart.  It wasn't what he said.  It was he said something and I was already stressed out.  I went into the bathroom and cried for a few minutes.  Your question what is your responsibility to your daughter... .I would have to say for me it is to always love her, let her find her own way, to help when i can and it's requested, to be there when she needs me. I almost forgot... .take care of dtr's mom which is ME... .Smiling (click to insert in post).  I haven't been doing that.

     Nonnon... .you sound like a very caring stepmom.  I think when we love someone and see them hurting it is felt by anyone who loves them.  She sounds lucky to have someone who will listen to her.

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« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2007, 09:40:51 AM »

DEar All; No nightmares last nite!  I am so relieved! They were leaving me rattled for the remainder of the day and afraid to fall asleep again at nite!  thanks for the validation for the nightmares coming from stress related to BPDd. I have to remind myself that this is a process that I go thru every time we deal with BPDd's behavior. I used to tell friends about the nightmares and they would kindly ask if I had eaten something strange. They just haven't had the experience we share.

My other stress symptom is that I don't want to be home alone the past few days. I have never had that feeling before. Except when I was about 4 and my mother would run out to the corner store for groceries. Extreme panic. Anyway, I think I'll be fine with that today as well.

It's interesting how the brain re-wires after stress. I have to learn to be patient with myself. Instead, I feel guilty about other moms who have it worse.  I need to let go of that. Taking care of myself doesn't detract from their pain. but I always get wrapped up in that kind of thinking, which makes me even more panicky.
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ruralstressed
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« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2007, 12:31:50 PM »

Yesterday, I got my doughter to drive herself to an appointment.  Today she took her baby to an appointment by herself!  Her severe changes from dependence and independence are working to my benefit.  Maybe I can do something for myself today.
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Grace
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« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2007, 04:31:26 PM »

Hi all & a special welcome to secondary non -

I have found all of your posts to be so interesting and it is so good to get a little different perspective on things.  Thanks for helping me get through the day.

what is my responsiblity to my daughter?

I've been thinking about this as I think it is a very good question for us.  My answer I guess would be to raise her in a good home, give her lots of love and nurturing, and get her to the point where she can be independent of us.  I think I have done the first two.  The question is will she ever be able to be on our own?  We have given her all the tools but she doesn't have a clue how to use them.  She may be 21 yo but she acts like she's 15.  I know sooner or later she will go (and I really hope it is soon) and I guess I will just have to hope and pray that she will survive out there.

Ohiomom, my DD really did have panic attacks, or at least that is how I saw them.  These came on later in her teens, on many occasions when we confronted her with something (a lie or deception) she would start breathing extremely fast and not be able to slow it down, sort of like hyperventilating.  Eventually her eyes would pretty much roll back in her head and she would, for a lack of a better word, pass out.  More than once we were ready to call the EMTs because we thought she was going to die but she always came out of it eventually. When she came to, she had no recollection of any of this happening, other than her ribs would be really sore from the fast breathing.  Her therapist showed her some methods to control her breathing so this has not happened in awhile to us, but it was very scary at the time.  I think this was her way of dealing with the stressful situation.

Take care,

Grace
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Mikki
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« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2007, 09:08:23 PM »

Grace,  I wonder if she could have been experiencing a panic attack? Shortly after my (non) daughter's second child was born she experienced these a few times. She thought she had a brain tumor the symptoms were so severe! These were very frightening and she has been perscribed some anti-anxiety meds. She was also imagining the worst with whatever came up with one of her kid's health. I could talk with her and calm her fears, but then she would get on the internet to research and she would let her imagination run wild. Well, she and my BPD daughter have been comparing notes and finding out they have been experiencing some of the same physical symptoms from feelings of worry and stress.

Now, probably a bit off the subject, but perhaps worth mentioning:

When BPD daughter was ten months old she began to pass out when crying hard. She would go into a cry, hold her breath and pass out. Her lips would turn blue and she would come out of it and start to whimper. She would be exhausted at this point.

Also, when she was 13 we were in a hotel room all getting ready to go out for breakfast when she seemed to have a siezure. We rushed her to the doctor, tests were done, nothing found. We followed up with our own doctor, still nothing. This happened to her a couple of more times as a teen and young adult, but she didn't tell me about it at the time. (She had been drinking at parties and thought she would be in trouble.) It happened again when her son was a baby. That time the baby was in bed, but she awoke at the bottom of the stairs. She drove herself to the ER! (Ugh!) Never was anything diagnosed. No evidence of epilepsy. She has been cleared to drive and nothing has happened in about eight years.

Last week, she went through another battery of tests because she is feeling a "sensation" that she felt prior to experiencing these "episodes". Naturally, she is scared. Her primary care doctor sent her to a nuerologist but cautioned her to check with her if the doctor wanted to make any sweeping changes. Well, she called both her sister and I in tears today telling us that the nuerologist wanted her to taper off all of her meds and take a blood pressure med for a high heart rate. She takes a med for her fibromyalgia and one for anxiety. Both her sis and I advised her to talk to her regular doctor before she did anything that drastic. The regular doctor has a sister with fibromyalgia so she understands the importance of her medication. Well, she told her no way should she taper off of anything. My daughter is going back to her next week to go over the results of all of her tests and so forth. Can you imagine if she had quit those? My God, she would have been in so much pain and distress. She has enough stress being a single mom with two kids working and trying to make ends meet.

She had gone to the pharmicist to fill the blood pressure medication and he told her it was going to make her very tired. She asked him to hold on to it for now and walked over to her primary care doc's office across the street in tears. She said she just couldn't take anything that was going to make her feel worse and told the doc she didn't know what to do. It was at that point the doctor told her to stay on her meds and made the appointment for next week. She also said that her heart rate wasn't as high as the neurologist was making it sound.

When DD was talking about going off all of her meds I just thought, "Oh please, God, no!" She has come so far and is a different person this last year than she has been since before puberty.  I mean the transformation is amazing. I couldn't bear the thought of her going back to where she was because of the neurologist not seeing the whole picture. Thank God for her regular doctor.

Anyway, it is probably a chicken and egg question, but I just wonder how much the anxiety can amplify the way this disorder manifests itself. I wonder how much it can contribute to the symptoms.

I am not sure if this all pertains to the thread as it should, but I have been thinking a lot about this lately and, Grace, your post prompted me to mention it. Besides, the mods seem to cut us a little more slack over here in the parent's section. Smiling (click to insert in post)

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lasagna
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« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2007, 10:34:23 AM »

Micki, you are fortunate that your daughter has such a comprehensive primary doctor. That's the ideal situation in the medical setting. Unfortunately, specialists tend to be myopic (nearsighted) and don't always see the full picture. Most primaries are so overwhelmed by today's current healthcare system that they just make referrals to appease insurance companies. The pt doesn't usually get any further attention from the primary following the referral. Of course, I'm assuming you live in USA. Maybe you live in UK and have an entirely different healthcare system. I could make an entire message board on this topic. I would even be wiling to be moderator! But I digress.

We're posting as moms here but I am also a psych nurse clinician. So my ramblings are that of a mom/nurse.     Some kids are born with entirely different temperaments than others. As legend has it, I slept thru my own baptism during a hurricane when the bldg down the block blew up (due to a gas leak). That is my temperament, for sure. A local oil refinery blew up when I was 14. The house shook, articles fell down. But I slept thru that one too.

In sharp contrast, BPDd was colicky, demonstrated hyperarousal with noise, had trouble letting go of anger. Incredible separation anxiety as a young child. My husband and I caved in and just stopped going out w/o her.

With our second baby, we kept checking her to make sure she was alive. She sas just so peaceful and quiet. Woke up and would play in her crib rather than cry.     Night and day difference.

There are kids who hold there breath till they turn blue. As soon as they pass out, the autonomic nervous system takes over and they breathe. Their temperament could be described as more "willful".

Every teen has intense emotions. But some teens just have a lack of tolerance for these raw emotions. So they tend to lash out at others. Helps to relieve some of the extreme feelings. BPDs persist with this long after other teens recognize it's a nonsense skill.

My BPDd has had psuedo(fake)panic attacks. She goes to the ER, they give her Xanax and she thrives on all the attention. Meanwhile, whatever else was going on in life is totally forgotten. Like owing mom $ for a parking ticket she paid for. It's manipulative. I know the panic attacks are fake because when she's left alone, they temporarily stop. Anyone can hyperventilate and get their heart rate up and even get dizzy.

I have had a few panic attacks in my life. They were the most frightening experience of my life. I wanted to unzip my skin and jump out of my body.

Be aware of self-reported seizure activity. Unless you see physical signs that indicate it really happened. As far as I know, neurologoists don't want to order anti-seizure meds unless they see abnormal pattern on 24 hr EEG.   

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Mikki
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« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2007, 02:16:14 PM »

Hi  Lasagna,

Interesting post! Nice to get a perspective from a nurse.

No, not in the U.K. I live in Oregon and our daughter lives in Washington. Originally, my husband and I are from Washington as well.  She has just been very blessed to have found such a caring doctor (actually, she is a Nurse Practitioner) who seems to have taken a special interest in her. I think the doctor knows how hard DD is trying and how far she has come. Plus, she has a sister with fibromyalgia and she herself had been a struggling single mom. DD has health insurance through the state, I believe on a sliding scale cost.  I think she has been very fortuntate and blessed to have happened upon this woman.

I think ,from what I am hearing, that the neurologist may not only be suffereing from myopia, but from an over inflated ego as well. Sounds like she spoke pretty condescendingly about DD's PCP.

I do know what you mean about the fake medical problems that seem to crop up at convenient times. I had long wondered about the diagnosis of fibromyalgia when she first had symptoms. I still don't know for sure how accurate it is,  but I do know the medications she is on for that and anxiety seem to help her function so much better. If she misses a dose, she is in pain. And since she has been better and is taking responsibility for her life and her actions, I don't think what she has been experiencing lately is manipulation. She is doing her darndest and hasn't missed work. I think the fact that is so much better is just making me wonder how much her BPD was made worse because of anxiety. But she certainly has a past of the type of behavior that you describe.

I know there is a school of thought that BPD's are not capable of manipulation. I don't buy that for a second. My daughter was a MASTER at manipulating my husband for many, many years.  I do not think that any of it was by accident. I once overheard her as a teenager talking with her best friend. They were laughing about how easy it was to get what they wanted from their daddies.


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lasagna
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« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2007, 04:20:19 PM »

What do you mean by PCP?
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« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2007, 04:23:43 PM »

I just answered my own ?. Primary Care Provider. Duh!
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christabel1956
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2007, 08:45:17 AM »

Typical teen vs. BPD teen

Hi moms,

It has recently been explained to me that around age 15 a typical teenager will separate from their parents.  This is in order to find their own identity.  An identity that is not yet strong enough in the presence of the parents.  Thus the expression "I hate you,  but can you take me to the mall?"  They want you but they don't.  Major ambivalence.

Around 18 or 19, they start to come around and their sense of self allows them to slowly come back into the fold without the feelings of imminent threat.  The identity has developed to a point of feeling confident in who they are, and knowing that they are separate.  The borderline teenager never gets that sense of self and continues to identify themselves through others. 

Therefore, it is way too threatening to be identified with "MOM".  For myself, my daughter is repulsed just by the very nature of who I am and what I represent.  I am like a vacuum to her.  Sucking the very essence of who she is trying to be.  This is without uttering a word.  All just by my being.

So I have decided that my responsibility to my daughter, because we are estranged and I am no longer responsible for her welfare and well being, that I remain the source of unconditional love.  For right now and with her trip to Africa, this can only be relayed by cards and letters.  So be it.  This is my present... .I can not predict tomorrow. 

When well intentioned friends insist that she is young and she will soon get it, I can only reply, "What if she doesn't?"  To me that is like anticipation of winning the lottery.  Why worry about money and bills when a windfall is yet to come.  What if it doesn't?

I hope this finds you all well, and finding a blessing in each day.

Christabel

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Mikki
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« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2007, 10:02:57 AM »

Christabel,

It sounds to me like you are detaching in a very healthy way. I think this is one of the key components to having your mother/BPDdaughter relationship endure while maintaining your own emotional health. You are wise and your insticts are good. Even through your pain, you are able to look at the situation objectively.

Excerpt
When well intentioned friends insist that she is young and she will soon get it, I can only reply, "What if she doesn't?"  To me that is like anticipation of winning the lottery.  Why worry about money and bills when a windfall is yet to come.  What if it doesn't?

Even if she doesn't do a big turn around in Africa, you may have periods of time in your life that you are close. When my daughter was pregnant with her first child, she would go for long walks with me and ask me lots of questions. She seemed even-keeled and "normal". This was before I learned about BPD and I actually thought that having a baby was causing her to grow up, out of her rages and disturbing behaviors. Well, that change was short-lived and disappeared as quickly as it came. Meanwhile, I had enjoyed months of connecting with her and being present for the birth of my grandson. And saw a reason to hope.

I still fear DD's improvement could be very fragile and pray everyday thanking God for the wonderful strides she has made and imploring Him to help her continue. I am so hopeful because she hasn't raged at anyone since May 2006. During her 30th birthday party at my house.

There isn't any magic time period or formula to predict when or if these "kids" will get better or stay better. I think that is why we have to develop strategies and take care of ourselves. It sounds to me that you are doing just that. Maybe her Africa trip with give you some time to heal these deep wounds.
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« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2007, 03:02:33 PM »

Christabel; thanks for the beautiful description of the arrested development of a BPD. My 17 year old daughter has surpassed my 23 year old BPDd in this developmental track. It's sad to see. 23 year old hates my guts, like I was disgusting. She should have moved way beyond that, but she didn't. That was when questions started arising. Around 17.

Also, I agree with your comment about unconditional love being your biggest contribution to your BPDd. Absolutely.   
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« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2007, 06:27:17 AM »

Dear Mikki,

Thank you for your kind and compassionate words.  It is an absolute that there is no absolute with these borderline children of ours.  It is constant renegotiating.  Last December my daughter went to so much trouble to borrow a car to drive 2 hours to come out to dinner with us for my 50th birthday.  She showed up with flowers and a card.  It was my only birthday wish to have all 3 of my children together.  It was a magical evening.  We laughed about times gone by, and BPD could even laugh and poke fun of her quirky idiosynchracies.  A place where no one would have ventured for fear of extreme retribution.  She was completely comfortable in her own skin. 

I'm afraid, however, that I was duped into believing that things were taking milestone leaps.  She came home for Xmas and we were talking about her plans for her 4 week winter break and she announced that she was leaving in 2 days for Barcelona and London.  She had been fired from her job and was doing the trip on a credit card.  It was the first we'd heard of any of it and she swore that she'd told us.  She hadn't, but I conceded instantly. 

I didn't hear from her again until Easter.  She wrote a month prior and said she wanted to come home, and that was all I heard until she showed up Easter morning.  I have resolved to setting an extra place at the table with no feelings of certainty.

We went to her college graduation in May, and that was the last time she spoke to us.  She is 20 minutes a way... .and nothing.  Silence.  So who knows what developed in her brain that has resulted in no contact.  Fact?  Fiction?  No one knows but her.  As we have all stated and confirmed, there is no "sitting down and talking" with a borderline about what their version of reality could be.

Dear Lasagna,

I am glad that you found something in my post to take away and use.   I, too, have a healthy adult daughter.  She had her typical teenage angst which was taken to a bit of a higher degree when she developed suicidal ideation over her father's abandonment.  She came out the other side as a beautiful self confident righteous woman.  She is one of my life's truest blessings.  As was typical she came around at 19.  Her perception of family became empowering and paramount.  She actually apologized to my husband (her step-father) for being such a brat.  Today she is 25 and constantly tells both of us how much she loves and appreciates her upbringing and our devotion.  That has been on going for the past several years. 

To the contrary, daughter #2 holds onto everything negative and if it isn't bad enough as it stands... .she embellishes to make it suit her cause.  "Revising facts to justify feelings".  A no win situation for all involved.  Building foundations on sand at high tide.  Tomorrow is always a new playing field.

Thank you both, Mikki and Lasagna, for your acknolegdement of my "healthy" transition into my next phase.  I have the most wonderful therapist for which none of this would be possible.  A year and a half ago I was crawling on my hands and knees looking for my dignity and self respect.  How wonderful it feels to be up right and proud. 

I am continually humbled by my company here on this thread.  Thank you so much for your commaradorie for which I draw much strength.

Love,

Christabel
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Irishgal14
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« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2018, 02:28:28 PM »

Hello ladies and especially Christabel.

My heart breaks reading these posts.  It is like my DD24 haunted all of your homes.  I have no contact with her now and she spits venom to anyone that will listen at my expense.  I am a terrible mother, I treated her badly, I married a terrible man and chose him over her.  

She left my home (where there were rules) and moved in with her father and his new wife.  They constantly coddle her and feed into her delusions.  According to her father, I am the cause of all of her issues.

Every day I fear for her safety (self-harm... .drinking... .risky sexual behavior) and pray that she will find peace (even if it means she is no longer in my life).  I cannot believe I am the target of her hate and it has actually made me fear her to the point that we have had the house re-keyed.

I can tell you that because of this I have learned who my real friends are, because I have lost many.  Those who have no experience with this disease (I wish i were one) have no idea of the stress and chaos that resides within a home with a DD.

Does it ever get better?  Will we ever be mother-daughter again?

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« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2018, 08:34:21 PM »

Wow. what an amazing thread and post from many of you.

I am new here too and like all of you I am so glad for the validation.  When things started going crazy with my DD27 before Christmas, a long conversation with my mother led to her concluding that my DD and I must just have a 'personality clash'.  Intuitively you know it's not but when there is nothing to leverage from; it's a very difficult place to be trying to convince those who care for you that you're not going mad.

I too have seen the smirk; I've seen retribution in her eyes many a time, even as a small girl when I put her in her room following a major tantrum. As a mother I have been reduced to tears over such ferocity in a small person.  This has not changed over the years; always left wondering what have I done; the punishments never fit the crime.

My DD recently cut me out before moving back to my home state to live with her father; also a uBPD but seemingly with more narcisisstic traits.  My youngest tells me that they are feeding off each other atm.  My biggest fear is that of retribution.  My ex-husband was relentless in his pursuit to see me broken when I left him all those years ago.  At times, I can feel the panic rise, if I think too much about it.

I am reflecting back on the last 12 months and I too believe I have fueled her abandonment issues.  Little things at first; remarks that I favor her sister over her.  During an extended period off work to help her with her newborn, I went home for a night to be with my husband; she stated that she couldn't believe I was abandoning her.  After nearly 12 months of working full time, spending every weekend with her and helping her.  Not withstanding the fact that I had no life outside of work and her, I was so exhausted with the drama and rage associated with baby daddy.  The two attempts to rebalance my life were met with uncontrolled rages; to my face but mostly by txt all stating that I basically don't love her and don't care. She has been pitting me against my husband too.  Unfortunately, she is now self diagnosing everyone with personality disorders; I suspect including me... .one txt to me read that she will no longer enable my bad behaviours... .

The sadness and reality of BPD is overwhelming and am seeking much solace here and attempting to piece this all together... .and where to from here. 
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« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2018, 11:34:06 AM »

Hi Everyone
My apologies, I am new to the site, trying my best to figure out how to 'quote' and reply to the right thread.  When I read the piece (I think from Irishgal14), it was like reading a quote from my life... .my 27 year old daughter (my only child) has cut me from her life too... .saying that I have changed, I don't do things right, said to my face that when she turned 18, I didn't want to be her mother anymore, I don't make time for her, I married my long time boyfriend and chose him over her... .Nothing I said or tried to explain was accepted by her.  It bothers me to think of what she says about me to my mother and sister, whom she contacts regularly but I also can't speculate.  Both my mother and my sister would NEVER try to argue with her, they would listen wholeheartedly and never try to defend me.  They would never think (and I certainly would never share with them) that she could possibly have a personality disorder.  If I dared to speak those words to either of them, I know that it would get back to my daughter... .they're both like that... .I have lived in a triangle with my daughter, mother and myself for many years.  I stopped it but my mother rages on with it, trying to pull me in again.

After a fit of rage saying I don't love her, don't want to support her, I chose my husband over her etc etc, she finally moved her things out of my house (after I had asked her two years ago), she has cut off communication with me.  Such a brutal change after an almost 'too close' relationship whereby she would contact me everyday when she had something happen in her life that she just couldn't handle, didn't know what to do, mostly around her boyfriend and why he wouldn't do what she was telling him to do, why wouldn't he change! 

I sometimes wonder if I shouldn't have told her that she can be difficult to be around... .that maybe I should have kept my mouth shut and just put up with her behaviour, but it was starting to affect me, I was on pins and needles when I knew she would be coming to my house (because its where her stuff was and where she stayed, and where I was always supposed to be to be there whenever she needed me). 

I hear everyone's pain, my daughter has never been diagnosed and there has never been any discussion of possible BPD, it was my counsellor who started me thinking about it, that and narcisistic behaviour.   She has very strong traits in both but there are also times when I still come back to, 'maybe it is me' so I struggle daily with this.

Sadnhurt

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