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Caretaking - What is it all about?
Margalis Fjelstad, PhD
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Brené Brown, PhD
Family dynamics matter.
Alan Fruzzetti, PhD
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MikeAnon
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« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2008, 10:56:12 AM »

Lets just accept it Tony...This is hard as hell.  I know ur not going back.  But the effect its having on you deep down.  Are you dealing with that?  (You don't have to answer here...but just ask yourself this...Are you dealing with it ?  How is this affecting you?  When you ask this of yourself...don't just say..."I'm ok..I'm over it...etc."  I know that about you.  I know you're strong but deep down I sense you're still hurt and this coming back of hers isn't easy.  This isn't allowing you the space to move on you need.  Shoulders feel heavy at times, right? 

Just asking you these questions because I Know deep down, I'm not 100% myself yet. 

It might be a good time for a personal vacation...take off for 3-5 days ...away from the city..no dates, no bikes, somewhere new, somewhere different.  This may help..

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« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2008, 11:16:31 AM »

actually ... im real good...

most of this actually...all of it..

reinforces...

that i did what was good for me

i thought i had my closure.. many times... i do at this point...

i am not witting this. as some one who is still in it so to speak...

looking at this stuff... is the hard part...

going back i was kidding myself ... i was never out ... a part of me was always in like many of you...

and really none of this is hard...i can tell this i guss objectively... and as a narrator...

i dont have the feelings... any more... ,

and i dont have the compassion required.. to keep me in...

i think some where in there my love turned into... the same care i would give to an abandoned orhpan...

at on time it was a love like have felt for noone... but those ups and downs of the roller coaster maybe wore me out...

till i could be objective...and the deep down... yea maybe... but i use it to make me a better person...

i now donate all the headspace...to someone worthy...

i develped my own issues from this realtionship...lack of trust,, loss of self respect..

co depenancy..., i beacme selfish,,,,..my walls were 50 feet tall... and ife was going by...amd i over it... yes..., could i ever go back, no...do i think about her...

some times... but not often...

and for every good thought... it is follwed by a bad thought...

i dont dwell on it...where i used to...

i worked thru them a little at a time...as many of you will...

therapists help... but you have to help yourself too...

and you have to want to get out from under...and not anylyze every second of your future...that makes for a guarded life...

and life is about shareing...

and allow yourself to grow... and shake off the fleas...

she might be tucked away in my head.. somewhere... but my heart is going other places...it no longer needs her ...



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« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2008, 11:28:10 AM »

just checking.  I hear ya and you sound good.

yes, that's the good thing as you say...telling this story makes it clear where you were and never want

to go again. 
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« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2008, 11:30:50 AM »

Tony,

You have been through so much and we all appreciate you writing it all down for us. So many BPD traits are exhibited in your ex and it makes it easy for me to cross reference to Psycho Man.

Thank you for taking this time to give us your story!

Chili

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« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2008, 11:31:37 AM »

I remember when you disappeared off the boards for awhile, T.  I know I missed seeing your posts.   Smiling (click to insert in post)  And it's so amazing to see where a lot of us have been, and where we are now.  Your story was compelling in that it was the story of so many of us who had been in Oz for shorter periods.  The vortex was just as strong, and the crazy came on with us shaking our heads going "HUH?"

Glad you're still here and doing what you're doing, Tone.   xoxo
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« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2008, 12:42:44 PM »

"and for every good thought... it is follwed by a bad thought..."

Amen TonyC, amen to that...they make it so hard to focus on any good at all because the bad is so bad.

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TonyC
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« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2008, 02:14:37 PM »

time went by ... i had the cops over cause she was parked out side.. she confronted carious women at my house, was coming to work.. she would be in my drives way at 4 am... i

i was scaredto go home again... and i could not surrender to her.. and offer my self again... i just couldnt...

well one morning i woke up to some one kissing me...

it was her...

i jumped up...i was like what are you doing here...how do you know i was alone...she said it was a chance i had to take...

i said i could call the cops...

so i smelled her,,, ths kiss felt good...

but i knew i could not do this...she was violating everything i had worked for...

but im looking at her.. and it wasnt the same for me...

i felt sypathy... as i would an orphan...

my heart was dying to hold her and tell her everything would be ok... but my brain knew it wouldnt...she didnt even look the same... her looks were deterorating, or were they... could my mind have made her beautiful? i dont know...

so im talking to her... and i said i cant do this... i really cant ...i cant let you hurt me again... and ive moved on...

she says ive heard it a sarcastic tone... your doin just fine. arent you i said yes...

so how do i compete tony... i said there is no competition... your behaviors and actions.. forced me out...

she said im ready to change i have nothing left...

i said i cant...it would never be the same... or maybe im afraid it would be the same...

i told her to leave...she did...i watched her walk to the car...i found  out later it ws her boyfriends car... the one who kicked her out...dont ask? i dont know...

but her mission was successful... i was all screwed up agian...

a few more attempts .. more cops...

so saturday night she came over...again..but i was on my way out...

she said she wanted to try again... i told her no...

but i was looking at her eyes...

i was a paramedic... quit after 911.

she was over dosed...i could tell by her pupils... i went to her car got her pocket book .. five or six empty pilll bottles... .. i called 911.. went to her grabbed her.. and made her puke... rainbow of pils came up...  i went ot the hospital with her... help the medic on board...

she was out there...

well the stabilized her and put her in the psycho ward...

i called her daughter... and told her what went on...

man i was knee deep in guilt... i stayed with the ex visiting... etc... taking care of.. talking to dr.s and psyches...

3 monthe later she came out... i was still struggling to hang onto my new life...

but i was allowing guilt to pull it away...

well three montsh later... i felt my self not wanting to be around her again... nothing had changed , she cursed out her family on the phone...because they never visited or called ,, her son still wanting nothing to do with her..., the daughter was looking to me for answers...cause the daughter didn know if she wanted her around the kids anymore..

that left... me...and i was too scared...of her...

she had no more t, or psych. that ended at the hospital,...and all the bullsht was coming back... 50 calls a day to me.. where am i , what am i doing...

she came to my house.. and i didnt want to sleep with her... i wanted her to visit and go home..., and i was pulling back. to the point of the nasty messages,, and so on and so forth... i could not digest any that happended...the past months...

but i knew that what i thought was rock bottom ... was just a time out in the psych ward... she wanted to go tanning, and get the nails done... and shop...

and actions were showing she was still her...

so i walked away... i no longer felt guilty...

and the pysch ward was my closure...

she hadnt changed one bit...

and she was worse than ever... the rages.. the attidude, the fears of abandoment...

no more t , no more pysch... they wanted nothing to do with her after the susicide attempt...

so she was once again.. starting at gound zero...

just i had no more fight in me.. to help her again...i could not do it...

my mind would not let me...

i realised...

it was time to exit the roller coaster once again...


its been many months now... i dont think about it...i dont feel bad about it...

i had to protect myself...

i got my closure...

this was all a stunt.. but she punished me , whats left of her family and herself...

when i looked at her as a orphan... and not someone i wanted to share my life with...

where was it going...

so many wonder how i got so smart... its had to do with survival

learn by doing and not doing... paying attention to the voice in your head... and trusting you gut...

but listen to your first thought..the advise of others...

but mostly trust yourself... and dont let anyone take your selef away from you...

i traveled the first car on the roller coaster for 5 years...i got off i allowed her to drag me back on...

this all comes down to one thing in her case ...

maybe it applies to you...

you can make your s/o go for help, take the meds , read the books..

but they have to buy in to it... sincerely... with out you pushing...

casue of they dont want help... it dont change...ever

actions show... and you know when someone is trying and someones not...

for those in staying... yeah i was a stayer... i wanted her all better and maybe who knows... i would have walked right along side of her to get her straighted out...

but whe i was dragging her.. thru life...

she won... she defeated me...

but if she did what was required of her,,,,who knows.. maybe it wouldnt have ended like this...


so ... for those of you who were curious... .i did the best .. i could to recall... thwere was much more...  but she was 9 for 9 on the critera count...

i didnt cause it, it wasnt my disorder,,,

and i went above and beyond...in the fixing it... portion...


after the last drama... i went outside the gates,,,, brought a chain... and locked them closed...

bit this time was different... after i locked the gate... i didnt put the key in key in my pocket... i threw it into the fields...


any questions feel free...











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MikeAnon
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« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2008, 02:33:35 PM »

that's a story and 1/2...went through a few rounds of popcorn...thanks for sharing this.  That's a hell of an account.

2 things...one an observation and then a quesiton


she won... she defeated me..."

I don't see it that way.  Ultimately, you did what was required to get your life back.  Staying ='d down for the count.  In doing so, you are able to give back to someone healthy (one day-when u choose)  and of yourself in other ways (here, friends, you have your family back, too!).  Staying was killing you.  U weren't defeated. 

...

then the question...does she STILL re-engagement?   
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« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2008, 02:42:53 PM »

she still dont get it... and wont accpet the fact...im gone...

she even blamed me for the psych ward...

in her mind... i left her...and forced her to continue her self inflicted hell on her self...

and for nine months she was with new b.f , kicked out of friends, daughters... lost her jobs...and went to the pscyh ward...

becuase...

i cut her loose...and probably to this day...

its all my fault... and she she doent think back.. there is no self reflection..

she dont have rear view mirrors... so there is no regrets... of thinking...

if she read this story she would say ... did i really do that...?

so when things are going well for her... or she thinks they are... im not in her head...

but when things start... who better to call than the one who tried to fix her for 5 years..

everyone else ran ... and spit on the ground she walked on...

but i always had the broom and the glue to fix it...





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« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2008, 02:50:57 PM »

no, she would say...I did not do that!
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« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2008, 02:54:56 PM »

saraband... months after she disapaeared that night...

she cought up with me...  ir something...during one of her re-engagements..

she was having thing about me dating.. someone...

i looked at her and said ?

i wasnt waiting for you... you disaapeard into the night...

and then she looked at me and said...

oh yeah i forgot...
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« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2008, 02:55:58 PM »

Your story has reinforced the fact that as much as we want to help the BP sufferer, that they are the ones who have to want to do it. It has to be for the right reason, for themselves. I tried to quit smoking a number of times, and failed and failed and failed, but I was doing it for all the wrong reasons. Once I decided to do it for me, so that I would feel better, I was successful. That was 10 years ago, and I haven't looked back. To start smoking again would be like admitting failure to me, and I won't admit failure again.

Saving a BP who won't admit or commit to change is useless in the same way. They may go through the motions, but if they aren't working the program, then they aren't going to change. They will continue with the same behavior and attitudes.

Conversely, for those of us trying to be the saviors, we have to know when we have also reached the end. What is our breaking point? How do we know when we have given it our all and have nothing left to give? It is different for each of us, and no amount of warnings or threats can do it for us. We have to go through the experience ourselves. It isn't enough to be told, "the stove is hot. Don't touch or you'll get burned!". We have to be the ones who feel the heat, sometimes more than once before we can accept the truth.  

This place is great, for the support and acceptance that is offered. You never really hear "I told you so." What you hear is, we understand.

Thank you Tony - for the support you freely offer. Your words help many more than you realize.

((((((((( round of applause ))))))))))))))
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« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2008, 02:58:41 PM »

This reminds me of my ex (last year)  

I was moving down to Jupiter Beach.  We were going to have the opportunity to spend more time together.  I thought things were going ok.  Then she calls and says..."I can't  Let's see where we are in 6 months and reevaluate, but No Contact)  I knew what I was dealing with so, I said...'Ok, that's your choice but I am moving on with my life...not holding out for what could be.

Then months go by and she sees me out with a girl...she's visibly pissed.  Later I run into her and she says "I can't believe you didn't wait. See you already cheated.  You hurt me"  

This is one of the first times I really realized that their (BPD) logic is all about crazymaking then 0 accountability.  It just wasn't worth it.  

Sorry...I was just sharing a similar exp.  this isn't my thread.

But she is STILL re-engaging?  Argh!  :Smiling (click to insert in post)



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« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2008, 03:08:02 PM »

...and probably to this day...

its all my fault... and she she doent think back.. there is no self reflection..

she dont have rear view mirrors... so there is no regrets... of thinking...

if she read this story she would say ... did i really do that...?

Same here, Tony.  I learned that from my little road trip into crazyland this weekend.  No self reflection, no rear view mirrors...no regrets, only blame and excuses and how I have caused his life to crumble. 

In a way I guess that's true, because I was the only thing holding the puzzle together so the rest of the world couldn't see who he really is...and now that I'm gone, so are the kids and the charade of who he pretended to be to the outside world. 

Like you, if exh would have stepped up to the plate and done the right thing, the hard thing, admitted the problem is him and really done the work of seeking recovery, then who knows?

The orphan thing-I get that too.  Pathetic, just a miserable and pathetic, but still self-inflicted, way to live.
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« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2008, 03:08:32 PM »

duet you cant be in the sole caretaker mode it dont work... i tried and tried...

the weekly this is good this is bad talks...

it was like trying to talk to a toddler in a 45 y/o body...

if they step up... and do what they are required,and you know they do,...

you got the ground work in place...you have a foundations...,

mike     during her stay in the hospital...

she askes how many women have you been with i said a few..

she said more than 2...i said yup...

i said why dont we leave that... alone...

she was starting to carry on... i said more than you want to know about...

she started her sht...i said you ditched me in the middle of the night...you went and liveed with some guy for many months...

same answer...

oh yeah your right... but its not the same...?
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« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2008, 07:25:04 PM »

Tony

YOu have an art for telling a stories.  And this was a profound one.  Thanks.
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« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2008, 07:37:41 PM »

The only thing scarier than watching someone you know is Borderline act crazy is watching someone you don't realize is Borderline act crazy. You've had both experiences, which adds a whole other interesting layer to it.

Thanks for sharing.

I'm sorry you had to go through that all, but glad you're out of it and here safe with your friends.

--J
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« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2008, 09:30:28 PM »

Tony, Tony, Tony...feeling a bit cleansed?

Hopefully by recanting your story it has purged any remaining toxins left inside of you!

I think what draws us to you Tony is that most of us envision you as this big "soprano" like kind of New Yorker.  You know that whole what you see is what you get attitude.  But when we read through your tough and wise crackin' posts, we see a very wise old soul who is a bit of a softie.  You walked through the fire and you stared down the beast and conquered it.

It gives us all hope that we too will conquer that borderline beast that took hold of our loved one.   

oneflewover   
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« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2008, 12:17:46 PM »

Tony - here's a big manhug!  xoxo

Again, I'm wicked late to the party on this one, but I really appreciate you taking the time and courage to share your story like this.  The simultaneous toughness, wit, and sensitivity you demostrate are a constant wonder.  You are a real mensch and a model for those of us who are just starting on the path of rebuilding.  I don't have anything substantive to say that the other folks haven't, but I just wanted to thank you.
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« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2008, 12:52:44 PM »

no problem... so this should answer the what was your past like questions.. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

there is tuff i didnt even put in... cause ...i had a real problem with the sequence.. or timing...

i did remember some thing this morning...

we are at her therapist...

he sat across from us...

i would give him a written weekly recap...he asked for me to do this.. cause he knew she lied...

so he says to her...

why did you feel like you had to start a fight with the neighbor.. cause there kids were being loud..

she put on the face... stood up... yelled

you two are supposed to treat me different i have BPD

she stormed out...slammed the door..

we just sat there for about 30 seconds..in silence staring at each other...

then i said .. you saw it right?

he said... ohhh yeaah , the face, the whole thing... scary sht tony

i said i know...

i got to go retrieve her.. before she beats up you secratary...

later doc...

hey i can laugh about this now...
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« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2008, 12:59:05 PM »

Holey moley!

Years ago I think they just kept people like that chained up in the attic.

--J
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« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2008, 01:57:36 PM »

Or burned them at the stake...
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« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2008, 02:03:46 PM »

...or drove a stake in their heart.    :P
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« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2008, 02:06:20 PM »

...or set them up on a date with me?

--J
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« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2008, 02:07:33 PM »

...or set them up on a date with me?

--J

Unless of course they are male. Then I'm the lucky recipient!
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« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2008, 02:21:51 PM »

Excerpt
and the pysch ward was my closure...

Yeah, that was my rock bottom. There's something about seeing them in a hospital gown walking around in a trans-like state on meds. I realized he was beyond any help. Off meds he was out of control, on meds he was drinking heavily so they weren't effective. He was a mess and I was forced to take a long hard look at that.

Many who stay may not have hit the point of no return, but even before my ex ended up in the pysch ward he was extremely unstable for a year and needed intervention. I was kidding myself... beginning to get used to the insanity and staying numb for the sake of triggering him. And the ultimate mistake you can polute yourself with is thinking you can fix this. Realistically, you can't.

He still doesn't 'get it' either. He thinks I have a communication problem I didn't want to work on. Things didn't happen like I say...  I never listen to him or want to see his point of view and the two therapists I seen didn't help me at all. 

Tony,

Before the post is locked, thanks for starting this post. I almost forgot the pysch ward visit since he is now taking care of himself and acting fine. I'd swear he was cured if I didn't know about BPD which also can make the re-engagements hard on people who just got out.





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« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2008, 02:31:23 PM »

the psych ward sucked...it was a waste of time...

and when thought this is it... it cant get anyworse... maybe this is what we needed to finally have this work..

i saw it was just a time out...

i took her home to her daughters... and she made a list..

that night..

some new clothes

money for tanning..

take me out to dinner

let me stay over.

oh yea im low on pills take me to get some..

she now had no t no shrink... they dropped her... wanted nothing to do with her..

she said they sucked anyway...and hated them, and hated her family for not chacking on her for a month...

and i was once again... standing alone... on a big pile of eggshells...

and there i was ...that knot was forming...but i didnt look at her the same way...i saw a ship... taking on water fast...

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« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2008, 03:02:35 PM »

and there i was ...that knot was forming...but i didnt look at her the same way...i saw a ship... taking on water fast...

Thank God!
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« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2008, 03:19:46 PM »

Yup...the psych ward...that is pretty much the nail in the coffin...

DB checked himself in a couple times...so strange to me that his family can still chugg along like there isn't anything really wrong with him...as long as he's not in their hair I suppose...

Tony...your story is pretty amazing really considering you have come out the other side of OZ and you are still a gentle, loving, amazing, witty soul...it does prove there is life after...

I'm very proud to call you friend...

For all the eggshells...you have walked on...

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« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2008, 03:42:08 PM »

you know elph.. there plenty more .. but i five years turned into .. one long bad dream...

i can only remeber things buy the seasons.. like it was cold out...it was oct nov or dec.

or it was hot...it was july or sug..., or a holiday...

you know what got me stuck with the guilt after nine months of not seeing her.. except for the re-engagement visits...that i was able to deal with...and the cops and all that...

when she was in the pysch ward..for 2 months?

no visitors...no calls... no nothing...

not her son... the daughter came once and a while...

her family... had no clue...

she forced everyone to abandon her...and had the nerve to call me to rescue her..

it was just me...i would leave after a visit..look up at the window...she would be looking at me too...and i  would feel my eyes fill up...cause i dont know...i was scared...she had my heart in her hands...and she was pulling on it..and it was only a matter of time.. before she yanked it out and held it up like a trophy..then tossed it too the ground and stepped on it...

i felt like...or i knew  i was going to have to walk away again...or the person i loved .. i was leaving locked up in a psych ward...

but .. when she came out and nothing had changed...it was horrible for her to drag me back to come to the rescue...and i could not rescue her from,, herself...

this is going to be locked up soon...

im hoping some of you know where i come from..and my struggles.. and maybe you see yourself in parts of this...so you know. how it started and how it finished...

and if you wonder how i can predict.. and guess your s/o next move..

now you know...

and maybe...you can see the after... if you visit rebuilding...

i will tell you about my new life..on the other side...

tony...
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