COMPARISON: Narcissistic Personality Disorder vs BPD

[BPDFamily.com]

When my ex dumped me I drank too much and wanted to die, but I didn't call him all the time (or at all) or drive by his house. I did stop by once to dump a box of things he left in my apartment outside his door but didn't see him or talk to him. He of course started calling me again "just to chat" after a few months. But I never called him and eventually changed my phone number when the "chats" became wearying. Though, being dumb and blind, I did give him the new number after I coerced him into returning the money he owed me after new charges showed up on my credit card for something purchased when we were still together. I was furious but after I got my money it was like, welp, whatever. What a messed up relationship.

I don't think my factual recounting of actions taken after the break-up shows much evidence of BPD on my part, personally. But I'm not a doctor.

[Gowest]

When my ex dumped me I drank too much and wanted to die, but I didn't call him all the time (or at all) or drive by his house. I did stop by once to dump a box of things he left in my apartment outside his door but didn't see him or talk to him. He of course started calling me again "just to chat" after a few months. But I never called him and eventually changed my phone number when the "chats" became wearying. Though, being dumb and blind, I did give him the new number after I coerced him into returning the money he owed me after new charges showed up on my credit card for something purchased when we were still together. I was furious but after I got my money it was like, welp, whatever. What a messed up relationship.

I don't think my factual recounting of actions taken after the break-up shows much evidence of BPD on my part, personally. But I'm not a doctor.

[seeking balance]

Just an experiment.

You may THINK you are not displaying all of the BPD points (such as low self esteem, and frantic fear of abandonment, substance abuse, etc)

However, rather than go by your gut feelings (I am not!), write down in a clinical manner what exactly you did when you were abandoned. What steps you took - calling, driving by, checking up, texts etc.

Now look at what you wrote - see anything?

You have to take your emotions out of the picture. Facts only. You can then apply this to all of the 'symptoms' of BPD.

Remember most crazy people do not know they themselves are the crazy. 

Hi Bob,

There are 9 criteria to BPD diagnosis.  Most humans specifically under extreme emotional stress will show several of these characteristics.  It is the pattern of behavior over significant time, not a one-time big stressor (pstd) that must be observed.  Your point is valid in this context and one of the reasons BPD is so very hard for trained professional to diagnose.

I think this post could be triggering to many on this board; as such, let's all be mindful to not react (great answers thus far) and Bob, I ask you to be a bit more self-reflective in your questions moving forward in this post.  I am going to stress right now, I do not want to see anyone disrespectful or I will have to close this thread.

Peace, SB

[bob451]

I think this post could be triggering to many on this board; as such, let's all be mindful to not react (great answers thus far)

Triggering, that would happen to someone with emotion regulation issues. Now, an N or an AS would simply ignore this.

Spend some time on a BPD board (as I am sure you have mod), they don't view themselves as evil. The whole idea of someone just moving on days later, that's N and AS. That's someone that never invested. B, i suspect they can love.

My issue at this point is with NPD. B is super sensitive, N feels nothing. N can move on. B, gets stuck.  B hurts.

[newworld]

Just an experiment.

You may THINK you are not displaying all of the BPD points (such as low self esteem, and frantic fear of abandonment, substance abuse, etc)

However, rather than go by your gut feelings (I am not!), write down in a clinical manner what exactly you did when you were abandoned. What steps you took - calling, driving by, checking up, texts etc.

Now look at what you wrote - see anything?

You have to take your emotions out of the picture. Facts only. You can then apply this to all of the 'symptoms' of BPD.

Remember most crazy people do not know they themselves are the crazy.  

You are not at all wrong here. However, a diagnosis of mental illness is not the same as dysfunctional behavior or bad behavior or FOO issues.

But, you are exactly right about a good way to clean up our own act and address our own issues.  Anything else is just EXCUSES!

[Randi Kreger]

The two criteria often cited at bpdfamily as "NPD" are "lack of empathy" and "portray a perfect image to others" (e.g., acting like mother of the year in public events with the family).  Both of these issues may just very well be accounted for in the definition of borderline personalty.  Empathy is key criteria in the diagnosis of BPD -- in the DSM-5 it will be rated from healthy functioning (Level = 0) to extreme impairment (Level = 4).  Mirroring (lack of identity, self direction) could explains the false image portrayal.The overlap of the PD descriptions in the DSM IV are not all that neat and tidy. In a 2008 study, the comorbidity of BPD with another personality disorder was very high at 74% (77% for men, 72% for women).  Hopefully this be straightened out in the DSM-5 (2013).

Both BPs and NPs have empathy problems. I wrote about it in my NPD series. I have every book about BPD for consumers on the market. Two are by therapists and one is by two "reporter" like people who have obviously gone thru the NPD ringer. The books by therapists are:Enough About You, Let's Talk About Me by Les CarterThe Object of my Affection is in my Reflection by Rokelle Lerner.The other one is Help! I'm In Love with a Narcissist by Carter and Sokol. If you get just one, get this one. I would urge the mods to review these or somehow put them in a place where people can see them.

[CaptainM]

Things such as:

• Impulsive and risk taking behaviour



• Self harm



• Suicide Idealisation

tend to be more BPD characteristics whereas NPDs will have differing traits such as:

• Believing they are 'special' or elevated from others



• Fantasise about power / get 'drunk' with power



• Deliberately take advantage of others

There are a lot of cross-over traits as well, and the chaos they cause to those around them can be very similar, but they're typically driven by different motives.

[Loveisfree]

Still trying to grasp the differences, particularly in relationships.  How can one tell when you are dealing with a narcissist versus a borderline?  I see that people on here can tell but I am still having much difficulty.  I posted a similar topic on the leaving board but I think it may be more appropriate here.

Thanks

[lurchlookalike]

This is some very valuable information. I have a family member that was diagnosed a Borderline decades ago but fits NPD 100% or very close. The uBPD in the family does have some very similar traits like severe verbal abuse beyond anything I've ever seen from anyone. Yet the self-centered non-concern for anyone but themselves clearly falls dead center on the uNPD. It appears that ALL interests are totally concerned with themselves, and they really don't care about anyone else. Hard to believe, and while sometimes there is lip service to caring about others their actions show that this is nearly nonexistent.

BPD does have some caretaking aspects, sometimes to a finatically dysfuntional degree which would never appear in the uNPD experience I've seen. Both can be very manipulative. The NPD really is much closer to a sociopath (APD) but the BPD could never be confused with that diagnosis. The NPD does however have a "hurting" component just like BPD which I don't believe is present in APD. That's what I've seen but as someone said it's not an exact science and even professionals miss this.

[healinghome]

perhaps their are no differencies, they are the same pd.  NPD and BPD could be the same thing?   perhaps what we call BPD is just NPD with a fear of abandonment?  hence the confusion.

because the more i think about it, the more i think they are the same pd.  what is termed a BPD waif, could actually be a narc with a victim persona that they subconsciously created so they can mask (from others and themselves) the real NPD.

[Randi Kreger]

perhaps their are no differencies, they are the same pd.  NPD and BPD could be the same thing?   perhaps what we call BPD is just NPD with a fear of abandonment?  hence the confusion.because the more i think about it, the more i think they are the same pd.  what is termed a BPD waif, could actually be a narc with a victim persona that they subconsciously created so they can mask (from others and themselves) the real NPD.

While they have some similarities, they are not the same at all. Not even the American Psychiatric Association has laid out what is what. First they wanted to take it out for DSM-5 despite the fact that it is the best known PD, then they put it back in. Most clinicians can't define BPD, let alone know what the real differences are--I mean, they know the very basics, but they only know the treatment differences, not the concerns of family members. They hate treating BPs, but they don't treat N's at all. Of course the fact that N's don't present for treatment makes that pretty simple!

[O'Maria]

I think I have dated/lived with both types, one of my ex was clearly more Narcissistic, the other one a typical Borderline with huge abandonment issues. Both were verbally very abusive, and both became physically violent too.

The Narcissist had a better self esteem and was actually nice, affective and funny between the abusive periods, the Borderline guy was abusive every week and got irritated without any warning (I now understand it was dysregulation). He also accused me of leaving him, being nuts, having issues, being stubborn, when he was mean and distant and I had to leave to protect my ego.

Typically The BPD guy used Silent Treatment every week, isolated himself in his office, and the attacks just kept coming with no warning, there was no effort to restore any peace in the house unless I took full responsibility for his dysregulated mind and bad mood, so mentally I lived with a teenage son. The NPD was able to talk and express his feelings and that helped to clear the air but of course he expected everyone to show that he was special 24/7.

I really don't know which one is worse. They are similar, especially when it comes to abuse, and anger/raging. They don't understand they use severe verbal abuse and that it destroys relationships. I saw a counselor with my BPD who gave him advice how to communicate but he never learned how to be respectful or express his emotions. 

[healinghome]

While they have some similarities, they are not the same at all. Not even the American Psychiatric Association has laid out what is what. First they wanted to take it out for DSM-5 despite the fact that it is the best known PD, then they put it back in. Most clinicians can't define BPD, let alone know what the real differences are--I mean, they know the very basics, but they only know the treatment differences, not the concerns of family members. They hate treating BPs, but they don't treat N's at all. Of course the fact that N's don't present for treatment makes that pretty simple!

i guess we will respectfully differ on those opinions then randi.  the only difference i see are that BPD's attempt to live through others and express rage or depression at the reolization that they are actually separate, while NPDs are more aloof and a bit more emotionally distant knowing that they are separate to others.

but both are ego centred, serving their own emotionally unmet child-like needs, with the same results on those around them and both manipulate others to their own satisfaction, with absolutely no conscience for the affects of their behaviour on others.  i think the amount of discussions within and outside of institutions shows that perhaps pd's are trying to be separated, when in fact they merge.

[cocobell]

I read somewhere (can't remember where but it was online) that some BPDs can have a narcissistic 'shell', i.e. they maintain a narcissistic type persona until they are threatened or hurt, then the borderline traits come out. It's like using narcissism as a defence mechanism. It's different from having true NPD.

I'm not sure how true this is but it might explain why some people seem to be both. In terms of my ex/friend he definitely has traits from both disorders and they can seem to change dependent on the situation. He has seemed very needy and easily hurt at times, and other times he has seemed very aloof and arrogant, and he has spent most of his adult life without a relationship. I have a hard time believing he is NPD because of the high level of emotion he has expressed at times, however, other times, he claims he can't feel anything at all.

CB

[HealingHearts]

My T started telling me about BPD about a year and half ago but it took me this long to really get my head around the idea that my mother might have BPD.  Now in having made several posts Narcissism keeps coming up so I am starting this workshop today.  I am really thankful for this workshop and expect that there will be many ah-hah moments.  Thanks in advance to everyone who contributed! 

[livednlearned]

I think Randi Kreger's 10-part series on the difference between BPD and NPD is worth reading: www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201110/what-have-you-done-me-lately-entitlement-key-narcissistic-trait

[lurchlookalike]

Ms. Kreger definitely knows what she's talking about here. Very few of us have seen a side by side comparison of the 2 (BPD vs. NPD) over an extended period of time. There is a big difference in the general modus operandi but I can't deny some overlap.

All NPD actions are self serving, or nearly all. Even those that appear to be helpful and caring for others are generated by a desire to manipulate and confuse. BPD people, from my experience, just are not that way. They don't think they're better than others, they're just out of control children who may hurt you but it's more collateral damange when they're throwing a raging fit.

NPD people tend to be more calculating of the negative effect of their actions and purposely inflict it, yet the real hallmark in my opinion is it's all about #1, nobody else really matters (parents, kids, friends, anyone). It would be much more likely for an NPD to be successful in some business endeavors due to the extreme manipulative quality. BPD would be more out of control with inability to hold a given course until reaching a desired outcome.

I don't know if this makes a lot of sense to others, but I've seen the 2 disorders much closer than I ever would have wished, yet they are people that deserve consideration, just not at the expense of losing yourself in the process. It does help to distinguish the 2 for the reasons given because this can help you manage the situation and stand back, looking at it from a distance with more perception.

[Undine]

I have a question about comorbidity. If the pwBPD has NPD as well-how does that affect the drug treatment? This site has displayed a statistic about male pwBPD that implies a 47% co-occurence of narcisssism which I feel was true of myxSO. So have there been any studies about that? How well does DBT work when both BPD and NPD are present?

[Matt]

I think once there is a diagnosis - which could be BPD and NPD, or some other combination - the treatment plan is designed for the individual.  The key is for the individual to get a diagnosis, and work with the therapist - it's usually some form of long-term talk-therapy.

[daz_bpd]

Narcissism

Joanna M. Ashmun.

www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/NPD/index.html

Narcissistic individuals feel that they are special and unique in ways that others aren’t. They lack empathy to a stunning degree, and are amazed when others protest their poor treatment of them. They expect privileges and indulgences, and they also feel entitled to exploit other people without any trace of reciprocation. Their behavior is contemptuous towards others, a dismissive attitude towards other people's feelings, wishes, needs, concerns, standards, property, work, etc. In their minds normal rules don’t apply to them and they will break them when they feel they can get away with it, yet they expect others to follow them. And they criticize, gripe, and complain about almost everything and almost everyone almost all the time. Narcissists have little sense of humor. They don't get jokes, not even the funny papers or simple riddles, and they don't make jokes, except for sarcastic cracks and the lamest puns. Narcissists are not only selfish and ungiving -- they seem to have to make a point of not giving what they know someone else wants.

There is only one way to please a narcissist (and it won't please you): that is to indulge their every whim, cater to their tiniest impulses, bend to their views on every little thing. and do not expect any reciprocation at all, do not expect them to show the slightest interest in you or your life (or even in why you're bothering with them at all), do not expect them to be able to do anything that you need or want, do not expect them to apologize or make amends or show any consideration for your feelings, do not expect them to take ordinary responsibility in any way. Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off -- just like that. Once narcissists know that you care for them, they'll suck you dry -- demand all your time, be more work than a newborn babe -- and they'll test your love by outrageous demands and power moves. In their world, love is a weakness and saying "I love you" is asking to be hurt, so be careful: they'll hurt you out of a sort of sacred duty. They can't or won't trust, so they will test your total devotion. If you won't submit to their tyranny, then you will be discarded as "no good," "a waste of time," "you don't really love me or you'd do whatever I ask," "I give up on you." These people are geniuses of "Come closer so I can slap you."  

Im still not sure, because the quoted passage above EXACTLY models her abuse, actions, behaviour and comments "you don't really love me or you'd do whatever I ask," - she has literally said this to me in one form or another, repeatedly over three years.

Yet her overwhelmingly NEEDINESS trumps the Grandiosity, but the Gross entitlement is there too.

And the total LACK OF EMPATHY - she basically daily told me she didn't care about me, for two years. Yet would continue to ask, demand, beg for money AND made sure i felt obligated, guilty or fearful NOT to send her more money.

[daz_bpd]

I've been pondering some of the ways BPDs differ from each other ... .I sometimes think that what a given BPD will do is bounded by what they would do "anyway", in an extreme situation - where they "had to" or felt justified doing it.

E.g. if they would tell huge whopping lies if they "had to", then they will tell you huge whopping lies.  If they would get physically violent if they "had to" or because you richly deserved it, then they will get physically violent. If they would cheat when their partner "deserves it" or doesn't live up to expectations, then they will cheat.

Because emotionally they feel like almost every situation is extreme - they "have to", or like you totally deserve their worst because of how awful you are to them. So the difference between them and other BPDs is merely going to be in whatever their "worst" happens to be.

Just my poorly expressed armchair psychology about why some BPDs cheat, some don't, some lie, some don't, etc.

This also EXACTLY models how she would behave. Joanna M. Ashmun. original passage in the first post, and this... .

so i don't know whether she is BPD or NPD

[Creativum]

Some folks out there seem to think that those with BPD are also narcissists.  This just seems counterintuitive to me, abut apparently it's common to find NPD in folks with BPD.

Can anyone shed light on what this might look like?

[Lifewriter16]

I'd like to know too.

Lifewriter x

[Creativum]

I'd like to know too.

Lifewriter x

I honestly have no real idea since it seems so contradictory, but this is why I ask:

My ex constantly talks about how he deserves "the job" ... ."the relationship" ... ."the money" ... ."the body" ... ."the education" ... ."the house" ... ."the location" ... .Anything and everything that others understand to require hard work and delayed gratification, he thinks he deserves YESTERDAY, without any real idea of how to achieve that goal.

He doesn't have a professional job, but he works within a professional organization, so he never states what he does within that organization unless someone presses him for it.  Once they find out, he immediately thinks they're judging him for it and hates them.

He thinks he has great talent in a particular area, but, while he's good, he's simply not professional material, and never will be.  He simply doesn't put in the work or have the drive to learn about and from those who came before him.  

He goes after mates, dates, and friends who have something to offer him:  money, rides, erotic capital, social capital, unconditional validation despite sometimes criminal/unethical behaviors -- he wants his mates, dates, and friends to be everything he's not.  He has no problem discarding them when they've given him something to temporarily satiate his need.

Diagnosed with sex addiction, he has raped (yes, raped) a number of people he desires sexually because they're what he is not but desires to be.  This gives him sick validation.  He'll wait until someone is somehow incapacitated and take advantage.  That's rape, folks.  They're always people who wouldn't ordinarily consent, but he justifies his behavior by saying their body language during the act showed they loved it.

Projects his sexuality onto others.  If he's feeling hetero, everyone is hetero. If he's feeling gay, everyone is gay.  If he's feeling bi, everyone is bi. If he's feeling non-monogamous, then monogamy is unnatural.

Anyone who speaks out against his behaviors or rejects his advances is split black as coal, and it's never his fault. He's been fired from every job he's ever had (none of them "good" jobs -- he can't get one of those).  As soon as someone says something, or he perceives that they've said something, that isn't 100% PC or positive, he lashes out, thinking they're speaking against him.

He has been diagnosed with body dysmorphia, but he actually loves his body as much as he hates it, and says things like he's proud that he can give sexual pleasure to men and women.

Constantly talks about how the place where he lives -- the place he had to return to when things didn't work out -- is full of rednecks, uneducated bigots, etc. etc. etc., acting like he's above them. At times, he even talks about his family in this way.

He ruuuuuns to mommy every time he wants something or things don't work out, and she gives him whatever she can.  This includes letting him live with her as an adult with no expectation of contributing to expenses.  The rest of his family, when he does something stupid or bad, and call him out on it, are shunned.  Until he needs something, particularly validation, in an environment with little other supply. Then he loves them again and buys little gifts and things to get back on their good side.  Otherwise, silent treatment.

Oh, and with me? He pretended to have a reeeeally bad memory (to help him with his lies), but when I was split black and really called him out, his memory was phenomenal. He remembered details of things I had said in passing and immediately used those to gaslight me.

[Lifewriter16]

I can see why you might be wondering about NPD given the sense of entitlement you are describing. I don't know much about NPD, but my interest is because an old flame of mine once told me that he would pass by opportunities to date 'ordinary' girls because he only wanted the best looking ones and they generally didn't want him. He said that he would only feel confident if he had the really special girl on his arm. Does this sound like NPD? I'm not sure, because he's aware of his lack of confidence.

Lifewriter

[Creativum]

I can see why you might be wondering about NPD given the sense of entitlement you are describing. I don't know much about NPD, but my interest is because an old flame of mine once told me that he would pass by opportunities to date 'ordinary' girls because he only wanted the best looking ones and they generally didn't want him. He said that he would only feel confident if he had the really special girl on his arm. Does this sound like NPD? I'm not sure, because he's aware of his lack of confidence.

Lifewriter

YES!  Mine does this, too!  He thinks he's not masculine enough, so he rapes straight men.  He thinks his body isn't good enough, so he tries to bed as many people with his desired body type as possible.  It's gotten him into SERIOUS trouble before already.  He covets.  He wants everything he's not.  He would make me feel soo bad about my body because it wasn't the kind of body he desired for himself. 

[Lifewriter16]

This old flame of mine crushed my sense of being sexually and physically attractive. He wanted me to wear specific underwear, specific perfume, said he really wanted to date a 'goth' (he wasn't even vaguely goth himself and nor was I). I felt like I just wasn't good enough for him. No other man has ever left me feeling sexually inadequate (apart from the one who was so drunk that he fell asleep mid coitus). He said he didn't think of me in 'that' way and that he could see no romantic future for us. Yet, he was sexually interested in me when it suited him and then totally disinterested. I could never tell which way he'd go. He said he wanted a polyamorous relationship. Said he wanted to find a sexually uninhibited woman who would teach him the ropes and bring him out of his shell sexually, yet he said he could see him still wanting to be with me. He wanted me to give my express permission to this. He said he preferred images of women to actual women because the 'look' in their eyes during sex was the important thing. And he's really into Japanese cross dressing men.

How could I ever have thought this man was interested in me? Lx

[Creativum]

This old flame of mine crushed my sense of being sexually and physically attractive. He wanted me to wear specific underwear, specific perfume, said he really wanted to date a 'goth' (he wasn't even vaguely goth himself and nor was I). I felt like I just wasn't good enough for him. No other man has ever left me feeling sexually inadequate (apart from the one who was so drunk that he fell asleep mid coitus). He said he didn't think of me in 'that' way and that he could see no romantic future for us. Yet, he was sexually interested in me when it suited him and then totally disinterested. I could never tell which way he'd go. He said he wanted a polyamorous relationship. Said he wanted to find a sexually uninhibited woman who would teach him the ropes and bring him out of his shell sexually, yet he said he could see him still wanting to be with me. He wanted me to give my express permission to this. He said he preferred images of women to actual women because the 'look' in their eyes during sex was the important thing. And he's really into Japanese cross dressing men.

How could I ever have thought this man was interested in me? Lx

Pretty sure mine was cheating on you with me, then.  He said early on that monogamy was his thing, then said during the discard that he's not attracted to my body type, that he wanted to open our relationship, that he's too young and still wants to have fun, that he's attracted exclusively to a certain type.  He wanted sex with me when HE wanted it, and I always felt like crap because he'd reject me when I'd initiate.  He also said he saw no future with me.  All this from someone who the first month was all over me several times a day.  But when he tried to recycle, which lasted only a few days, he was back to saying the same thing he had said in the beginning ... .only to change his mind as the week wore on.  Honestly, though? I know what he's up to, and the things he's up to are sex offenses that I honestly wish I could report without looking like a psycho stalker.  He really does try to victimize people sexually, and has on numerous occasions.

[enlighten me]

I have wondered this also.

There are four types of pwBPD. The queen, witch, waif and hermit. My ex wife was a waif type and my exgf was the queen type. I would say my ex wife was BPD with HPD traits wheras my exgf was most likely BPD/NPD.

I have wondered if this is typical.

[Lifewriter16]

It sounds like we're both well out then, Creativum. Thanks ever so much. This discussion was just what I needed because my old flame is difficult to shake off. He's been giving me the 'I still love you routine' and I've been in so much conflict emotionally. Everything in his behaviour suggests he feels nothing of the sort for me. What he loves is the love I feel for him. He wants to see the love and adoration in my eyes again. Well, I've got news for him... .it isn't going to happen.

Lifewriter

[Lifewriter16]

Hi enlighten me

What were the main differences between your ex-wife (waif - poss BPD/HPD) and ex-girlfriend (queen - BPD/NPD)? I'd like to hear how this may look in practise.

Lifewriter x