It would be ideal if you could arrange to see your family when you are caring for both children and your wife is busy doing something else. So much easier if you do not have to disclose to her that you have seen your family and your children probably would not tell her as they are very young. Any kind of conversation about seeing your family is going to lead to her acting terribly and the emotional meltdowns are hard on young children as they could think something is wrong with them because of how their mother is behaving.

This is key.  If you can get her out of the equation - in any situation not just this one - then you have less to worry about.  She could still show up and make a scene, perhaps, but maybe you could make that harder for her, like by going farther away to dinner.  At some point, pwBPD's laziness overcomes their vindictiveness, and you might be able to enjoy a relatively pleasant dinner. 

Be creative.  Does she like going to the spa?  Get her like a massage/facial package deal that evening, and say "don't worry, I'll take care of the kids.  You need a break, because I know you work so hard as a mom and wife."  (this doesn't need to be true.)

Hi there,

If your wife is like a pwBPD behaviors who I know, it won't matter one bit if you tell her your plans beforehand--she'll still get angry, because her position is that the kids are not to see your relatives.  This prohibition could be because your wife does not want your attention divided, she dislikes your relatives, she wants control, she wants to isolate you, she feels left out/abandoned, and/or she's just plain mean and vindictive.  My guess is, there is no way, no advance warning or magic set of words that would get her to agree to a visit, no matter how quick the visit was, no matter if it would make you and your kid happy, no matter if it would give your wife a break and some me-time.  Does that sound about right?

I also agree with Notwendy, that if any part of your plan depends on cooperation from your wife, it is highly likely that she will sabotage the visit.  Why?  Because she's punishing you for "disobeying" her.  Like Notwendy, I'm also wondering why you don't bring both kids with you.  I know it would be more challenging, but if I were in your shoes, I'd take both of them. 

Having said all that, the sad reality is that she's going to get mad if you do this, no matter how you approach it, no matter how you plea your case and ask her to be reasonable.  I think you know by now that your wife is not reasonable, she's emotional.  But at some point, you might have to decide if remaining close to your family is worth her rage.  This depends on your values.  In my mind, staying close with immediate family is a priority, and I make a point to visit with family, even if it puts my loved one in a rage.  There will be rage NO MATTER WHAT OR HOW I make the visit--even if it's only one shared meal, plus commute time.  So my approach is, just let her have the rage, and give her space to be angry.  I think, deep down she knows she's being totally unreasonable, which is why she uses  convoluted logic to prohibit you from seeing your family, and it will all blow over eventually.  You might ask her, "Would you accept what you're of asking me, to never let our kids visit with your family?"  See what she says.  Alas, with BPD, there are all sorts of double standards, i.e. rules for thee and not for me. 

It is why I will not buy furniture from ikea anymore. It will just resulr in a rage nd something broken.

I don't think it's a disagreement but that, if love could have made a difference to my BPD mother- it would have done that. I observed my father doing everything he possibly could for my BPD mother for decades. It made a difference for her materially- to have what she needed but emotionally, it didn't change her perceptions due to her BPD. 

He did love her. He was smitten with the beautiful woman he fell in love with, and at times, that woman was in there somewhere. However, she also was one of the most cared for and simultaneously troubled (by BPD) people I knew. Somehow she would perceive good intentions and caring from a victim perspective. She'd find something wrong or hurtful in what was being done for her or given to her- and see it as someone hurting her or disappointing her. Being verbally and emotionally abusive was her self defense.

It was crazy making and confusing- to do something nice and receive anger as the response.

The tragic aspect of BPD is that the closer one is to the person, the more these perceptions play out. So it's the people who loved her the most that elcited her responses. I felt envious of her friends who could have a better relationship with her but learned to understand that it was because they weren't as close to her that this was possible.

In your story Pook, it seems you get along better with your ex wife now that you two aren't married. In this context- this makes sense. She can perceive you differently because you aren't her closest and most intimate partner. It doesn't mean you didn't love her enough. I think you did actually. Maybe you made some mistakes you'd do differently. I think every person who was ever married can say that- we learn as we go along. But these alone aren't the cause of the dynamics in the marriage. It's that the closest, most intimate relationships are more prone to dysfunction.

Still, everyone is accountable for our own actions and how we treat other people. I agree- no matter how angry or hurt we feel, it doesn't give us license to be hurtful to someone else. I agree with your suggestion to make the best of it, and to not allow anger and resentment to contribute to the conflict. It may be more like making lemonade out of lemons but there's not enough sugar. Still- less conflict, kinder behavior- can help the climate.

I don't think one can be expected to love someone who also abuses them- love them in the sense of being close and loving and vulnerable. I think my mother wanted that but it wasn't an emotionally safe situation to do this. However, I could extend love in a more universal sense.  How do I want to behave towards an elderly and mentally ill person. I could still protect myself and have boundaries and treat her decently. Did I do this perfectly? No. There were times I did lose my temper, get frustrated, but I still tried.

I could also examine how I perceived her. The mother who we were afraid of as kids (and still remained fearful of to some extent) was now a frail elderly person. She could still be verbally and emotionally hurtful but as adults, the relationship is different. For Jazz- your H may still be a jerk, the jerk he was when he was younger and able to hurt you, but it seems now, he's more dependent and less powerful. It is possible to lessen the conflict, try to find some compassion, albeit it's difficult when one is feeling hurt and angry. But doing what you can to decrease conflict in the home will benefit both of you. It doesn't seem fair that you'd have to do this, but you are the more emotionally capable one. If your H is also experiencing dementia, he may not be able to manage his emotions. You can and should have boundaries when it comes to abusive behavior and also decide if he ever needs more assistance than you can provide.

Venting to friends may feel good but I don't think friends know the whole of any situation. They will take your side because they are your friends. They will tell you to leave because they see your side but truly- they don't have all the information to be able to advise you. Even with the close view of my parents' relationship, I could not fully understand it.

For Pook, I think you have made the best of your situation. It's possible that being in the position of husband, your wife could not fully perceive your love for her but as a friend, she can, and this is a positive. You do show her love - in a different way and in a position where she can receive it.

Here is what I learned with these situations. If any plan had an aspect that depended on my BPD mother- this is a possible way for her to sabotage it.

The loophole in this is that for you to take the older child, your wife needs to keep the younger one. This is the loophole for sabotage.

Imagining this were my BPD mother- there'd be a reaction, and a part of that would involve the younger one. It would be a crisis situation.

She would be too out of control to watch the baby, or she'd have an issue where she couldn't - such as not feeling well.

The reaction would involve a need of hers that takes priority over the dinner- such as you needing to take care of her.

My BPD mother got her way in all these situations through some sort of crisis at the time.

If we wanted to do something, whether or not we decided to inform her sooner or later in the plan- all the aspects had to be already covered with no connection to her at all. No need for her to have any part in it. That's the part she could sabotage.

In your situation, it's her watching the baby. Even though it's more complicated to take both kids to dinner, if your sister and her family are there- that's enough adults to handle both kids. She'd  love having the baby there too.

Much harder to pull off if she comes up with something she needs you for, to take priority over the dinner plans.

The attorney wouldn't be for divorce. There are attorneys who specialize in elder law and Medicaid planning. Medicaid has qualifying laws. If it's even a possibilty that your H may need to have nursing home care- beyond the 100 days, it helps to know what to do to plan ahead if someone has assets.

It also would be to know how to protect your assets in the event something (hopefully not) would happen to you. In your state, the assets would go to your H. You mentioned you have invested the most in your house, and that your son is in stable financial situation- this is good. He sounds like a reliable person to help manage the finances if that was needed but it needs to be set up with an elder law attorney because, to avoid disqualifying for Medicaid if that were needed and to avoid your H mismanaging them if they went to him.

My parents didn't do this. BPD mother got control of all assets and mismanaged them, to her own detriment. This was a stressful situation as her resources were limited at a time she needed them, and she did not cooperate with a budget or plan. Several trustworthy family members offered to help her with a budget but she refused to cooperate.

You also want to keep sufficient assets for yourself and your own needs should your H need nursing home care so having a Medicaid compliant plan for this could be helpful.

The attorney might also be able to advise you of your options if your H became too abusive for you to manage.

Something to keep in mind if you feel the need for consultation with one.

Hey Jazz,

As you said, the tides have turned and he's now walking on eggshells. That doesn't happen without a realization that there's something off within.  He may never say it out loud and that's okay, because deep down he knows that how he acted was wrong.

I guess my question for you is that now things are better, what have you done to improve the marriage relationship?  I know that probably sounds like a strange question- he's the abuser.  Only, he's not abusing anymore and he's respecting your boundaries. 

While your friends point out that it's only "for now", I'd second-guess their advice to some extent since it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.  If your husband is a lousy person and you treat him like a lousy person, even when he's not being lousy, then what will happen?  Of course he'll eventually get back to being lousy.

This is actually an opportunity to show him some grace and try to reset the marriage.  And that probably sounds crazy, I know, but what do you have to lose when you feel stuck and there's no other answers?  You can hate him and be miserable, or you can attempt to find a happy medium where you maintain strict boundaries but also love him.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here and very few will agree with me.  But i do think it's worth a shot when there's no other options.  Maybe your husband is a total jerk, but the guy you fell in love with is still in there somewhere as well.  Find that guy once again and let go of everything else.

I suppose the objective way to consider how early is early enough would be to tell her about your plans before you make them.  Of course, in order to keep her from completely sidetracking your plans, your mind, keep a mental "line in the sand" where you won't concede further and will tell her at some point that you're disappointed she's not being cooperative, and you're just going to plan it without her then.  At least that puts her on notice so she can't complaint you've blindsided her.  And don't allow a lot of delaying tactics "Okay, you can see them, but not this month, because reasons"... don't go along with that.  Call it out, and keep going in circles until she relents.

I might say something like "It is simply not fair that you won't allow my family to see our kids.  I can't agree to this any longer.  I want to plan a visit with them.  It doesn't need to be long, and it doesn't have to be every month, but dinner is enough.  You can either plan it with me, or I will make the plans.  You don't have to come if you don't want to, but I hope you do, as it's important for you to be there as my wife." (you might have to practice saying that so it doesn't come off as ridiculous)

Include a lot of conciliatory phrases so it doesn't come off as an ultimatum.  "I love you, and this is important to me" and "I understand your concerns about [insert reference to whatever BS thing she's making up in order to justify alienating you from your family] and I love you and want to do the right thing for you, but I need to see my family sometimes and I want to work this out"  Stuff like that. 

I had a hard time being patient enough to do that, in the face of all the hypocrisy and manipulative nonsense BPDxw was displaying in order to come up with reasons why my mom couldn't visit, couldn't see our daughter, etc., even though near the end of the marriage, her mom was living with us full time.  I guess that's why I'm divorced...

It is understandable you have concerns what your wife might do when she finds out you are planning to get together with your family. Would it possibly make sense to call your wife after you have picked your son up and say you will be late in coming home, will be taking him out to eat, without telling her what restaurant you are going to or that you will be getting together with your family? My guess is any advance notice your wife has will be used to sabotage your time with your family. She can't sabotage an event she does not know about. It seems she is going to act badly no matter what you do, though you might limit how upset she gets by limiting how much you tell her.