This is similar to my BPD mother who also felt entitled- from everyone. She did find her Prince Charming, who provided for her, quite well. She was very attractive and paid attention to her appearance. While this may be in part due to some NPD it also was a means of achievement her era- a husband/provider was the goal of women in that time.

Still, if women didn't work outside the home, they still did the work in the home of managing the home and raising children. I consider that to be work too as I have done at times, done both, stay at home mother, and the work force. For BPD mother though, she did neither.

This is what astounded me. That someone would just be OK with not reciprocating, not contributing. I couldn't do that. If my H was the main wage earner, it was important to me to contribute to the family too. Yet, it didn't seem to bother BPD mother that she didn't. Dad provided her with the Carrie Bradshaw life and she seemed to feel entitled to it.

BPD, with some NPD could be the explanation for her but it didn't explain my father, how or why he tolerated this, but he did. We know now that this is a  pairing between two people. I think it may be a bit more difficult these days to find this kind of arrangement, but it can happen.

I think it's a normal wish for a young adult to want to find a partner and settle down, have a family. It's reasonable that someone with BPD wants that too. Perhaps the difference is how they go about it and behave in their relationships. CC43, It makes sense that your SD wants what she wants, but the expectations and how she relates to people are different.

For you, CC43, the decision is how will you respond to this? I can't say for all pwBPD, but for my mother, this was who she is. Whatever anyone did to try to get her to "see" their side of things, it didn't work. She also remained in victim perspective, feeling that others wronged her, even if they didn't do anything of the sort. She didn't seem to make the connection between her behavior and the reaction or consequences of it.

One decision is how much will you give to this relationship? For those of us who do reciprocate in a relationship, I think we see it though our own perspective. It's difficult to imagine someone who doesn't think like we do. For me, the decision was about how to balance my own values and boundaries and it isn't done to perfection. Although I think we may still have some wish, even if it is magical thinking, that we'd have a way to make the relationship "normal", that is different from expectations.

Yes, that's exactly what the pwBPD in my life will say:  "I don't care."  It's probably the most common phrase she utters in my presence.  Coming in second are words about feeling rejected or mistreated somehow.

I'm pretty sure her diagnosis was "BPD with narcissistic avoidant traits," or something along those lines.  Perhaps the touch of narcissism explains the seeming lack of concern for other people's feelings.  But with the pwBPD in my life, I see the narcissistic side manifest primarily in her obsession with looks, as well as in generalized entitlement.  The sense of entitlement isn't limited to immediate family, but extends more broadly.  It seems she expects for the world to cater to her needs too much, such as for a landlord to rent her an apartment when she doesn't have a job, employers to respond to her online profile with high-paying/low-stress job offers, Prince Charmings to sweep her off her feet, and the world to "discover" her as a supermodel/famous artist/actress/Youtube influencer, without having to do any work first, let alone be realistic about her talents and chances of success.  Since her expectations of a Carrie Bradshaw lifestyle clash with reality, she's constantly disappointed, which causes her significant distress.  I guess the way to describe it is she expects the world to come to her.  It's like the world is responsible for satisfying her needs and making her happy, and yet she seems oblivious to the notion that SHE is responsible for herself, SHE's the one who has to make things happen in her life.  Since she's passive and entitled, she's constantly disappointed, feeling angry and alienated and like a victim, blaming the world (primarily her family and any roommates) for her problems.  I guess I always come back to the notion that the victim attitude is the worst part of BPD, because it makes her feel powerless and not responsible for herself.  If she's not responsible, she can't "care" about how she makes other people feel, let alone apologize, let alone make things right.  She's too angry, frustrated, disappointed, negative--feeling REJECTED by the world--and she lashes out because of it.

Eventually it seemed that BPD mother didn't care about anyone either. At times, she even would say she didn't care. I had assumed it was my fault- since she would blame me for something I did, or didn't do. If something is our fault, we think we can do something to fix it. I did try that but - reality is that it wasn't just with me. It was with everyone, and it wasn't something anyone could do or not do to "fix".

She could be nice to someone- if it served her in some way. I was envious that she seemed to have good relationships with other people but her outward persona was also self serving. People seemed drawn to that, until somehow she felt disappointed in something they did or didn't do- or they decided. She could "discard" someone quickly when she decided, even family members, with no observable sign of regret, remorse.

Sometimes she'd be hurtful on purpose. Sometimes it appeared she seemed to enjoy it. She had an NPD aspect to her too. I wondered if she may have ASPD traits as well.

It's hard to generalize a behavior or motive to everyone with BPD. It's a spectrum, it can overlap with other PD's. BPD is a challenge for people who are connected to the pwBPD. I think when there's NPD or ASPD involved, it increases tha

I don't excuse the behavior, on the basis of BPD. It doesn't mean we attribute bad qualities to them but that we see the behavior and if it's mean, hurtful- decide on the basis of that. Emotionally, for my mother, I think she was in a state of emotional survival, and was desperately seeking emotional relief in whatever way she could. It seemed to be her focus. There was a series, the Walking Dead. The zombies were the villains but when people were in survival mode- starving, scared, hungry, desperate their behavior was as, or more, monsterous than the Zombies. Were they evil? Not likely, but the response had to be self protection regardless, because being around them was a real threat.

Another analogy was taking water rescue classes. They teach you to not let a drowning person grab on to you. They are frantic and desperate and if they grab on to you they will pull you under the water. They taught us how to help from a position of safety- throw a life preserver and pull them in, extend the handle of the net to them. If they grab you, we learned how to escape the grip. Still the person has to cooperate in their own rescue. They have to grab the life preserver, or the net handle. They have to relax and let you pull them in with the proper hold without grabbing you.

BPD may have been the reason for my mother's behavior, but the behavior itself could be hurtful. That's reason to be self protective.

Hi hotchip,

Thanks for sharing this. It sounds like you’ve been doing a lot of honest reflection about what happened, and that kind of clarity can take time to reach.

The confusion you describe when the relationship is “ended” and then resumes again is something many people here recognize. When words and actions don’t line up over time, it can leave you questioning your own sense of events.

I was also really sorry to read about the loss of your pet’s ashes. Losing something that meaningful in the middle of everything else must have been incredibly painful.

Your line about grieving the person you thought you knew really stood out. Many of us have been through that same realization.

What part of this has been the hardest for you to process so far?

I’m glad you found your way here.

Methuen,
You are a fighter in ways your mother could never be. You have stayed true to your values and doing what you felt was right. I hope you can one day look back and give yourself credit for how you treated your mother, how you never lowered yourself to her level no matter how badly she behaved.

PSI is the only place I know where members understand the immediate and long term impacts of having a mother with BPD. The fact that we are still able to yearn for having a loving mother and still feel wounded for not having one, shows we are capable of love and caring, something our mothers were never able to do. Somehow we were lucky in that we did not end up being like our mothers. The grief of losing our hope of never having our mother show that she genuinely loves and appreciates her child, does not go away after she passes away, as there is a finality to the fact that we will never have ever had a loving mother.

I grieve the loss of my mother every day in the sense that I realize how I am different in ways I wish I could change. I am constantly dealing with the traumatic reenactments, though I have greatly improved over time and with distance from my mother and disordered family members. I have accepted that the grief will never end though with time, I am less overwhelmed by all the loss.

I admire the courage and decency of the members on PSI to face and do the work of understanding the long term life time impacts of having a mother with BPD. There are so many people out there who live their whole lives without realizing how they have been impacted by having severely disordered family members.

I am glad we can be of support to each other.

A nurse coordinator had called me to inform me that BPD mother had gone to emergency. She got admitted. I called the hospital but it was hard to know what was going on. Eventually, I could tell she wasn't getting any better. We got in the car and went as soon as we could. When we got there, we could see she was near the end.

I am glad we got there when we did.

The next several days were doing what needed to be done -moving her belongings from the AL, planning the funeral.

I can relate to the emotions of handling things. There was so much fear. I was afraid of everyone connected to her- even when there was no logical reason to be afraid.

Hi Methuen,

I can relate to trying to make sense of BPD behaviors which seem bizarre and downright ugly sometimes.  I think that's why I come here for the most part.  I think you're right about the observation that the core of BPD relates to dysfunction in close relationships, where attachments/bonds seem constantly strained, even fractured.  A person with BPD tends to have totally unrealistic expectations of others--she demands too much devotion, service, attention and sacrifice from others.  Since her demands are unrealistic, she feels constantly aggrieved, upset, disappointed, slighted, bossed around, whatever.  At the smallest indication of "abandonment"--for example, you have to end a visit with her because you need to get home, make dinner and go to bed early because you have an appointment first thing the next morning--her over-the-top emotions take over.  I think it comes down to negative thinking patterns, intolerance of distress and total impulsivity that induce her to lash out, usually at the very people who are doing everything in their power to please her.

I suspect that, deep down, she knows she's being unfair and mean, but her emotions are simply too overwhelming, and she's too impulsive.  She never learned how to calm herself down and think before unleashing her knee-jerk reactions.  She's upset, and in that moment she is compelled to let out her negative emotional energy, not unlike a toddler who is upset about getting a blue cup instead of a red one.  She just doesn't care if she makes a scene and hurts you in the process--all that matters is her own pain, frustration and powerlessness in the moment.  Maybe, once she has calmed down, she might regret what she did.  But that's when I think the "magical thinking" and "victim mindset" take over, and she re-interprets events to make herself out to be a victim.  When she's the victim, you're invariably the offending party, which always puts you on the defensive.  And then you go about walking on eggshells, lest you provoke another outburst, all the while wondering why she's perpetually displeased, despite going above and beyond to try to make her happy.  And then you wonder, why she's all take and you're all give, it's just not balanced, let alone natural, especially in the context of a mother-daughter relationship, where conventionally the mom is supposed to nurture the child, not the other way around.  More than anything you want to love her, and yet her behavior is terribly unattractive, as well as harmful to you, and this cognitive dissonance is utterly confusing.  You too crave closeness, but she makes it too painful for you.  It's no wonder you're in distress.

Though my situation isn't exactly the same, I can relate to wanting desperately to love and support a family member, only to encounter ugly behavior from her.  How do I love someone who takes and takes, all the while blaming me and hurling venom my way?  Well I think I can take the venom, because I know that it's not about me, it's BPD.  But what's harder for me to take is how cruel she is to my husband and the rest of the family.  How do I try to reconcile preserving the integrity of the entire family?  Do I "defend" her actions and say, it's not her fault, it's BPD, just ignore it?  Do I say, she doesn't mean any of the hurtful things she is saying and doing, even after years of therapy?  At what point is an adult responsible for herself, even if she has mental illness?  I mean, BPD can't be an excuse for all negative behaviors, can it?  To say that BPD is at fault (and not the person) is like giving up, isn't it?  On these boards I sometimes see the concept of "radical acceptance," but does that mean accepting that a person with BPD is basically mean-spirited and unable to control themselves ever, and it's not possible to have a healthy "attachment" with them?  Honestly it's confusing to know what to do, let alone what to think.  And then I wonder, what is love to a pwBPD?  Will she ever have a meaningful relationship/"attachment"?  Or maybe it would be better to live alone?  I just don't know.

Reading your replies has touched me.  Reading that you were thinking of me just means so much, and is so helpful in the grieving process.  It really is a family here.  We care about and support each other.  What a special gift. 

Reading that you've been thinking of me...both surprises and warms me...especially when juxtaposed with a mother that I don't think had the capacity to think of me much ever. 

By the time she went into assisted living, I was in survival mode.  Conserving emotional energy.  My tank had been empty for years (pretty much the 6 years I was on this board).  AL was a godsend because H and I didn't have that 24/7 responsibility for her - an irrational and unreasonable person.

She was such a fighter.  I am not.  When the ambulance was called by AL, all 5 of us (H and I and her grandchildren) were there as it was over Christmas (we were together).  When the paramedics arrived, she refused to go. They told me they couldn't force her to go.  But they quickly sized up the situation by talking to AL staff and us, (she was so small in the bed she just looked like another wrinkle in the sheets, looked like she was dying, wasn't eating, was refusing her meds, and showing signs of dehydration), and said they would have to call in the police to assist.  I was in shock and disbelief. How much crazier and worse can it get?  My mother and her decisions creating unfathomable chaos. I was in despair. (This is the same woman who refused home care to give her eye drops and then went blind in the eye.) In the end, with 2 paramedics, her family and AL staff all at a loss, it was her GC grandson (30) who cajoled her into agreeing. She negotiated (more demanded) from the paramedics that he would ride with her (emotional caretaker).  The whole scene probably lasted 45 min once the paramedics arrived. They had been on the phone with their doctor about the situation and it was the Dr who said the police needed to be involved.  I still shake my head at what a fighter she was - right to the end.  It didn't matter the situation or the event or the stage of her life.  She made everything difficult for everyone if something didn't fit with her needs or ideas.

Once she went into AL (8 months before she passed), there was relief for H and I, but there was also still a lot of work and time (so many appointments, task maintenance, duty visits).  Now that she's passed, she's physically still all around me with all the work (and paperwork) involved in being executor.  The grief is heavy.

Somehow I still cared for her.  That is the kicker.  If I had not loved/cared for her, it wouldn't hurt so much that she was so mean and difficult. I wouldn't feel so messed up.  If I hadn't loved her, I wouldn't have showed up for her right to the end. 

Still, I spent the last 5 years figuring out how to protect myself by staying as LC as possible under the circumstances.  It was H who also paid a price as he stepped up.  But he too had his limits.  Ultimately, it wasn't until together we wrote a letter and stated we couldn't care for her any more, that she got into AL.  Then it happened quickly. 

I think there is something not right about all that.  People and families shouldn't have to get to that point before help is made available.

With mom, I think her problems come down to attachment.  I had attachment to her. Children growing up in a family (and all humans) are social and crave attachment.  But she had attachment to no one (even though she was social and liked to be the center of attention).  That lack of real attachment allowed her to hurt people and not care (or not care enough to change).  That's my theory.  I'd be very interested to hear others weigh in on this. How can a person hurt others (especially their own children) and not care?  There is a big story about her childhood and the family she grew up in.  It was damaging. I think parts of her brain never got wired up. I feel like she damaged me.  But I acknowledge a challenge, and constantly work on myself to grow, and she refused to acknowledge and do the work.  She didn't care about the wake of destruction in her relationships (siblings, friends, co-workers, husband, daughter-me) or not enough to look inward and do something about it.

I've spent my life caring for people.  Made a career out of it.  What irony.  Never stopped caring for her, but paid the price.  When love hurts.

I guess that was a bit of a rant. I "process" best when I write. I hope one day I can feel better.  And thanks for pointing out that 2 months is not a very long time.  I needed to hear that.

Thanks everyone for your replies.  They all made such a difference.

Each time i write this out there is a little more, the pain gets worse and then better.

3 months ago, my then-live in partner X (undiagnosed, both they and I have previously recognised they strongly fit BPD criteria) cheated on me by having sex with someone else while I had a reasonable expectation of a monogamous relationship. X has since denied that their actions constituted cheating.

We had been live in monogamous partners for a year. Two weeks before, X had told me they did not want to have any kind of romantic relationship, friendship or connection with me going forward. However, shortly after that (within hours/ days) we returned to living as a couple - cuddling and sleeping together, cooking and eating, having sex at his initiation. X had previously verbally ended our relationship at least 4x, then went back to living together as if nothing had happened within minutes/ hours. We considered ourselves partners for the duration, and X later had no recollection of these 'breakups'.

For me, fidelity means being accountable to the mutually understood commitments within a relationship. If your partner has a reasonable expectation that you are monogamous, then it's up to you to communicate clearly that this has changed before you violate that expectation. Given that X's actions looked like a continuation of our established partnership, and that the words used to 'undo' that had been revoked or undermined by his actions, I believe X's behaviour did not meet the requirements of fidelity or integrity.

X has oscillated on this. At first, he claimed he had done nothing wrong and that we were broken up. However, he also expressed extreme guilt for having kept me up worrying about him, to the extent that he spent an entire day aimlessly wandering without eating (while continuing to assert that he had not cheated).

Later, when I said to him I thought his actions were in fact a sexual violation that could reasonably be called cheating, he nodded and said 'sorry'. He seemed so ashamed he could not even raise his head.

X's previous live-in relationship ended due to his having an affair with a mutual friend of his then live-in partner. X has expressed extreme guilt about this, saying it took a long time to realise he was not a 'bad person'. Recently, I have reflected on the extended deception such an affair would necessarily entail.

A couple of weeks after, and just after I got back from a week away during which we texted in a friendly way - X suddenly decided that we were not in a relationship. Not by breaking up, but by claiming we were already broken up. This wasn't true. After the fiasco, I'd made sure to define verbally and explicitly that we were in a relationship, and X had promised that he wasn't going to do it (the cheating) again.

While claiming this (that we were broken up), X made statements that were internally inconsistent/ incoherent. For example, he said that one of the horrible things i've said to him that makes him feel bad is that if we broke up, i wouldn't want to be friends. Notwithstanding the fact that he was the one who first said this to me, we clearly had been interacting as, at the very least, friends (not to mention the sex, cuddling, hand holding etc at his initiation – indeed, on the night before I left, he asked me to hold his hand while he fell asleep.) He also, confusingly, said 'the reason we can't be friends is that you can't let go'. It is circuitous to describe because it was just word salad.

He also expressed anger with me for ruining his day by 'talking endlessly' and 'making him have a _____ time' (the day after I learned about the cheating... during which I also took him out for pancakes). I found it extremely painful and by certain definitions, abusive, to first have my trust violated, then be denigrated for having a normal emotional reaction to that.

X also claimed that I/ our relationship makes him feel 'guilty for existing'. I pointed out that during a previous suicidal episode, he had claimed someone else made him feel 'guilty for existing'. I said while my actions have been ________ed and unkind at times, his mental health spirals are not totally attributable to others. X looked me dead in the eyes with an expression of hate and said, ‘Are you trying to make me feel bad for wanting to kill myself.’

X told me that I need to invent a story about his mental health because I can't deal with the guilt of being cruel to him. A narrative about my ‘cruel’ and ‘horrible’ behaviour had been repeated often in our relationship, and I had accepted it. Yet much of what this ‘cruelty’ entailed was things like brushing him off/ expressing annoyance when he asked for computer help late at night while I was in bed. I believe dismissiveness can be painful and destructive to a relationship, that my actions meet this threshold. I am deeply sorry for this. I have expressed this to X. But on reflection, I believe these are normal experiences in a relationship - not cruelty.

I suspect what may have happened is that X was deeply shamed by having violated his own values, ie, by cheating. Rather than dealing with this, he chose to lash out and project onto me. I also wonder if the cheating recurred while I was away, hence the meltdown, but I can’t say for sure.

*

X then asked/ demanded that I move out, which I did.

Some weeks after, X became frustrated because he did not realise I had ‘officially’ moved out. He expressed frustration that he was liable to pay the portion of rent and bills I had previously covered, and blamed this on me. This was upsetting, since X had demanded that I move out, looked dead in my eyes with hate and told me I was cruel, and refused to speak or be in the same room as me. Yet somehow, it was not understood that as a consequence, when I picked up a suitcase, left the house and did not come back, I had... moved out.

X claimed the reason he had to pay more money for bills and rent was because I did not 'officially' inform the landlord. This made no sense, since X was still living there, and the rental agreement was by room, not by person. There was no reason why the landlord would have chosen to waive rent because I wasn’t there.

Bear in mind that I continued to pay what had previously been my half of the rent at the place where X is still staying, for a month after I left, so he would not have to pay more money (as I knew he was in a precarious time). In these circumstances, it was confusing and painful to be blamed. X was facing the consequence of his own choice to make me leave, and I was sleeping on couches. But even there I tried to buffer so he would be less exposed to instability, while I was exposed to more instability.

Speaking of covering X's rent, there was also some confusion about the final payment. In our previous rental payments, I would pay the landlord for both of us, and X would pay me back. I made the last payment as usual and informed X of this at the time. For whatever reason, he decided to pay the landlord his half independently of me. As a result, there was a double payment (with me paying double), that needed to be recovered.

X also blamed this on me because I failed to notify him. I suppose that for triple clarity, I could have informed him that ‘as usual’ meant I would make the same payment I usually did. But he was the one who engaged in a change from the previous pattern, and he did not notify me at all. It began to feel like a Mobius strip of double standards, whether rent, or notification, or wanting to be friends – whatever I did was wrong while what he did was right.

When I pointed out to X, in the most factual way I could manage, that the overpayment arose not from lack of notification but from us making a double payment, he was dismissive and pivoted to blaming the landlord, saying, “I’m not getting in a back and forth about [landlord] being demented.” I found it upsetting that X would simply throw blame at yet another person based on his emotional state, rather than assessing what happened.

*

X and I have now both moved out and the tenancy is ended. Something awful happened in the process. X was moving my things out, and did not move a bag in the shed that contained my beloved pet’s ashes – either because the landlord had already thrown it away, or because he did not see it. I was devastated. The landlord has said she threw everything out because she thought X had taken all our belongings; X has said he didn’t see anything and she might have already thrown it away when he went to get our things.

In apportioning responsibility and causation, I believe the landlord bears some for not being careful and throwing away something which did not belong to her. X bears some for not checking with me before moving my belongings – he had told me to let him know if I would remove my things before March 11, and I arrived on March 10, but found my belongings had already been moved – and more than that, for making it necessary for me to move out in such chaotic circumstances. I do not believe I bear fault in this matter. I considered sharing words with X along these lines.

But ultimately, while it is a horrible thing, no-one is wholly personally to blame. There has simply been some very bad luck where a normal unfortunate event (something getting lost in a move) has taken on a painful significance. Much of that pain comes from the *reminder* of the loss of a loved one, not the ashes themselves. This is something neither X nor the landlord are responsible for.

I mention this because I have previously accepted much of X’s characterisation of me as ‘horrible’ and ‘cruel’. Yet I have chosen not to lash out or blame him for a painful thing happening to me, where he bears some (but far from all) responsibility. Whereas he has blamed me repeatedly for things that are not my fault at all. I see this as a matter of integrity.
 
There is a possibility X has now entered a relationship with a mutual friend of ours, someone I respect deeply. I am not sure if this overlapped with our own relationship, ie, was the source of the cheating. And if so, how much this friend was informed. X told me at the time the person he had slept with was not someone I knew.

I am not sure what to trust, but it strikes me that there are similarities with X’s previous relationship, where he cheated on his then live-in partner with their mutual friend. X’s affair partner had also described X’s previous partner, the one who was cheated on, as being ‘horrible’ to X, a characterisation X repeated to me. I have a sense of cycles repeating.

I am grieving the person I thought I knew.

X has expressed a hope we can be ‘at least amicable’ and has said they see ‘this chapter as closed’. I find it inappropriate to harm someone, then to declare the issue closed and request amicable interaction from the person you harmed sans acknowledgement, apology or reparation. I have expressed this to X and requested no contact.

Over the course of our relationship, X at times showed great courage and integrity. At others, there was much instability including suicidal ideation expressed to me on >100 occasions. His personality, actions and relationships have undergone great shifts. I do not know if he knows who he is at all.

I hope X is able to heal and, if the person I thought I knew exists, to forgive himself. I am sure my perspective will evolve as I turn to the question of why I seem to remain in such toxic relationships, and find ways to get better.