"No more one-way relationships and no more wasting time just to try avoiding hurting someone's feelings."

Pook075, I seem to have mastered the first part more than the second. I have been vigilant for quite awhile about one-way relationships, though I stumble when there is some reciprocity, like with this woman, even though most of the conversations were about meeting her needs. I have another thread in which I talk about wanting to be a good neighbor to my highly narcissistic neighbor, like telling her she left her garage door open. Notwendy hit the nail on the head, when she told me I could not do that (because of how it would reopen the door to again being abused by that neighbor), yet I am the kind of person who would call an ambulance if the neighbor needed one.

I would so like to be able to be nice while setting the firm boundaries with disordered people before they become so attached to me that they want my undivided attention. Healthier people than myself would have likely seen the red flags sooner and would have distanced themselves before the disordered person became attached to them.

Pook075,
Thank you for sharing about your journey.  

In my own opinion, no. Someone who reaches a certain age and has not picked up on that skill is unlikely to learn it. Also, I think they'd be very triggered by that. Even if it is revealing TMI- that kind of information is emotionally raw. They are probably not in the mindset to take a constructive comment.

All relationships have required boundaries and what we disclose needs to match the relationship. Hearing this kind of information from a long time friend is different from someone we meet in the park, or at work.

This is a problem with boundaries and to me a  to keep this person at the aquaintance level at the most.

You brought up something interesting that I hadn't thought of. My mother's era was more traditional. Men took women out on formal dates. My mother's family told me she had lots of dates, and she did.  In someone's late teens and 20's, dates were fun. If the only expectation is to dress up, go out, have fun going to a dance or movies, there'd really be no difference between her and her other same age peers. In current times, for your wife being a bit young and wild would not stand out.

As she got older, I noticed BPD mother's friend circle change a bit. My parents maintained some friends as a couple, and after my father passed, her circle of people consisted of people who I thought were a bit odd, or  younger than she was or they were people she hired to help her.  She seemed to have a sort of mother-daughter type relationship with younger friends. Since she still seemed to like social situations, we thought she'd enjoy being in assisted living as there were social events. I recall meeting the other residents there. They were very friendly- mentally intact and while they were there to have help with some tasks, they'd sit out on the porch together, have meals together. They would invite my mother- and even me- when visiting to join them. My mother didn't do that. She became reclusive. Her prefered company were her caretakers. She wouldn't even go eat meals in the dining hall and had them brought to her room.

I think it might be the maturity gap. A pwBPD acting like a teen among people in their 20's - that isn't a big gap. For your wife - looking for a partner she had to look at someone- for better words- possibly what you see as "not a catch" for her- possibly because it was your wife's looks that she brought to the table, but the other women, being "older" emotionally didn't tolerate the behaviors. For my mother, choosing younger friends was less of a maturity gap.

However, once in assisted living, the residents there were all at an age of maturity having gained years of experience and wisdom. At this age, looks are not really on the table as much as companionship is. For BPD mother, this may have been too much of a challenge to sustain a relationship with them and her concerns about being exposed as different or worried about what people might say led to her avoiding contact with them. Maybe this is one reason she was more reclusive. I had not thought of that.

What this means for you Max is that for now, old age isn't on your agenda. Your focus is on the kids and supporting the family. However, from what I have seen, even healthy older and independent adults might need some help at some point, with household tasks, or errands. I think it's fair to assume that while you can help your wife, she is unable to help you. She also isn't able to make sound decisions. I think it would be wise to look into a plan at some point, even if it isn't needed ever, but to appoint someone you trust as emergency POA and possibly some investments your wife can't spend all at once.  Since your wife is on SSI  learn the rules about that and Medicaid so that any savings, trusts, don't disqualify her for help if she were to need it. Just having the information so you know what to do some say may help.

After divorce with my BPD ex, I worked hard on repairing relationships in my life since my focus was always 100% on the home and keeping my ex happy.  And as I found this site and learned about validating and/or enabling behavior, so many of my relationships suddenly appeared to be completely one-sided.  Both of my daughters took advantage of me, yet never showed up when dad needed help.  My brother was basically living off me and I allowed it because I was being a "good guy".  There were several others as well that I had causal relationships with that never really led to anything that benefited me.

It would be easy to say that my brother and my kids were jerks taking advantage of me, but the truth was that I allowed it to happen.  I don't think it's a bad thing to be a people-pleaser, but I've learned to direct my time and energy towards people who give it right back.  No more one-way relationships, and no more wasting time just to avoid hurting someone's feelings.

For instance, my BPD daughter sometimes just wants to rant...and I'll listen for a few minutes.  I'll give advice or help if I can.  But if it becomes apparent that this is just going to be a call that, "My life sucks, everyone sucks, the world sucks, etc" then I quickly end the conversation.  Or if we're in person, I will grab a towel, start cleaning stuff around us, then walk off to another room like something urgent just happened.  When I return a moment later, I'll bring up a fun story from our past or something I recently saw on TV.

My point is this- it's better to be lonely than have lousy friends.  Find hobbies and the right types of friends will likely follow as you pursue those hobbies.  Or find somewhere to volunteer about something you're passionate about.  I still want to try homes for humanity and I've volunteered at animal shelters and in prison ministry.  Those things really changed my life and they were things that mattered to me, so it was a win/win.  I also met others who thought like I thought in that pursuit as well though.

I hope that helps!

I'm so torn on that- part of me agrees with you, that she 100% believed that it was true.  But another part of me wonders if it was guilt and projecting because she felt lousy that she did so little (which led to depression, which led to her doing even less, which led to more depression...).

I can speak from experience that I was really depressed for about 3-4 months in my 30's.  Long story short, I owned a business and our town got covered with almost an inch of ice.  Half the state lost power and my business was closed the entire month of December, which was always our busiest month.  I was too small of a business to recover and I knew it, so I slowly but surely began to give up completely.  And the more it ate at me, the more I shut down internally and the less I did each day.

For me, I woke up one morning and thought, "What the heck are you doing!?!"  I was so mad at myself that I almost couldn't stand it, because I've always been a super hard worker that just kept going regardless of the circumstances.  So I went back to work and covered all shifts 7 days a week until I dug myself out of a very deep hole.  Just like that though, the depression "snapped" in mere seconds and I was back to my old self.

I don't think my wife ever had that "snap-back" moment in her life and I think she continually just felt more and more defeated by the world around her.  She did perk up when she left me and had the affair, and I've been curious if she's still doing well or if she's reverted back to her old patterns in her new marriage. 

I guess it doesn't really matter but it's always fascinated me...how the mind can perceive things with one person overcoming it and another shuts down.

Wendy - maybe that is part of it.  As a single person, you aren't expected to do as much.  And what you don't do people don't see or is easily excused.

A lot of single people don't cook much for themselves, because cooking a full meal is large effort for one person.  So. they eat out, get takeout, or fix easy things to heat up.

Most single people don't buy houses on their own.  They rent.

Single people can be a little more reckless with money, and that is ok.  Nobody is dependent upon them.

Single people can change jobs often and that is OK - nobody is dependent upon them.

Single people don't have to make relationship commitments.  Saying "this person was not right for me" and moving on is easier.  

The BPD challenges may not show up as much.  The BPD "red flags" for my W were easily explained as coming of age stuff, being young and single and wanting to be adventurous and carefree, and in some cases came across as positive qualities.  

Past relationship issues were portrayed as making poor choices for partners.  But one eye opening instance recently explained how that was not quite the case.  The woman chose to have a relationship with recently I would not consider "a catch" and probably was not a very good choice, just a convenient choice with someone who gave her attention.  But despite that, W still obsessed, and when the GF felt engulfed and pulled away a little, W basically stalked her.  I watched it happen.  One day before she moved out, the GF had not communicated with her in awhile, and W suddenly got a text message from GF inviting her over.  W immediately dropped what she was doing, barely said goodbye to the kids, and drove over there.  She got a speeding ticket on the way.  Not just slightly speeding but significantly speeding on a road that it's difficult to speed on, and on a journey that would have only taken 10 minutes travelling at the speed limit.   When I found out about the ticket, W remarked about how when she got the text message she had to drop everything because she was so excited.  A week later she got another speeding ticket doing the same thing.  

This reminded me of a story she told about her first boyfriend in high school and her first car.  She described this boyfriend as someone who was abusive and not good for her, and they had an on and off again relationship.  One time when they were broken up, he came over and invited her to some kind of outing.  She quickly agreed and got in the car she just bought and followed him.  She claims she was trying to follow him while he was speeding and wound up running a red light and T-boning someone.  She told the story about what a numbskull he was for speeding and not caring about her and playing with her emotions.  

The recent story is nearly identical; except she luckily only got a ticket!  Same story - 30 years later.  A real eye-opening situation that made me realize all her past relationships are not how she portrays them.  

My humble opinion is that your wife truly believed she worked her butt off.  I have this pet theory, that almost everyone in the world thinks they work their butt off.  It's just that, when you're used to working only five or ten minutes a day, working for five or ten minutes qualifies as working "hard."  Granted, to you or me, that would be insignificant, because we're used to working at least eight hours a day at a paid job (and probably more), plus a few hours every day of unpaid work, including caregiving, homemaking, bill paying, etc.  Thus, five minutes to us is a tiny fraction of a "hard" day.  But to pwBPD, it's a lot, maybe even everything, percentage-wise.

I'd add that for me, most of the routine things I do, I do practically on autopilot.  That's because they are part of my normal routine, and I have so much practice doing them, that I don't spend a lot of mental bandwidth executing them, which frees up mental bandwidth for other, more demanding issues.  I generally get routine tasks done promptly and move on.  When I'm at my best and not too pressed for time, I might even enjoy doing some tasks, like cooking some days, sweeping the front steps, folding clothes or watering plants.  Sometimes I'll listen to music or a podcast to make simple chores seem almost "fun."  But my main motivation is creating a pleasant life for myself and my family, such as by making decent meals and keeping a clean and orderly home.

But here's the thing.  I think that pwBPD ruminate a lot.  They don't have the "scaffolding" of a routine to enable them to put everyday tasks on "autopilot."  Rather, they have trouble CHOOSING to do something they don't want to, and that makes them feel like they are facing a constant internal battle.  On top of that, their mood is generally negative, which makes everything seem more miserable than it "really" is.  I think they have an internal debate about all sorts of daily choices, like, "I'm tired, I don't feel like getting out of bed, it's too difficult to pick out something to wear, I have a zit, I don't want to deal, this is too hard, it's unfair that I'm expected to get out of bed, my life is overwhelming, I don't want to do this . . . "  To cope, they might roll over and go back to sleep.  When they eventually wake up again, the dialogue becomes even more negative:  "Why can't I just get up like a normal person?  My life sucks.  I never do anything fun.  The morning's already gone.  I don't have anything to wear.  I hate doing laundry, why do I have to do everything?"  Etc., etc.  By the time they get around to putting a load in the washer, they've debated it internally for a long time, devoting so much mental energy and time on an outwardly simple task.  According to their mental math, the task seems all-consuming and much bigger than it is for a "normal" person.  To them, they spent most of the day on it.  On top of that, they crave validation, a gold star:  "Great job!  You're a fantastic partner for doing everything around the house!"  But you just can't bring yourself to give her the validation she needs, as the clothes sit wrinkling in the dryer, the dishes sit unwashed in the sink, the bed is unmade and her remaining clothes are strewn all about the house, etc.  I don't blame you.  Why?  Because it is inherently UNFAIR.  She expects to make choices like an adult, yet not pull her weight, and on top of that, complain all the time.  You can't help but resent it, because you over-function for another adult AND get blamed and treated poorly.

Once, my pwBPD made this disconnect increasingly clear to me.  For context, she had recently moved back into my house.  This time, however, the expectation was that she work "full time" on herself--namely, get a full-time job that would give her benefits like subsidized health insurance, especially since she didn't qualify for parental or student health plans anymore.  Well, for the first few weeks, she insisted that she had to transition to a new routine.  She said she needed time to move her things, get settled in and adjust to a new home before figuring out how to search for work.  That seems reasonable, right?  But the thing is, for her, "adjusting" took a LONG time.  Whereas for a "normal" young adult, "moving in" is an activity that takes a day, maybe a weekend, tops, since she doesn't own that many things.  Yet for her, "moving in" happened gradually over the span of two or three weeks, and even then, she still had belongings left in a storage unit, and items remained unpacked and disorganized.  After "moving in" was supposedly complete, she needed even more time to "set up."  Mind you, she didn't get a new car registration, change her driver's license or register to vote, things that a "normal" adult would do when moving to a new state.  By "setting up," I think she meant, finding a new health club, new nail salon, new hair salon, etc.  Granted, this sort of thing is normal, but she approached it as her principal OCCUPATION, to the exclusion of more pressing responsibilities, such as searching for work, let alone offering to help around the house.  In her mind, she was expending considerable effort on "transitioning," or "learning a new routine," and it's as if she wanted praise for it!  As in, getting up by noon and getting her nails done in the afternoon was an "accomplishment."  But the whole time I was thinking, OK, it's been almost eight weeks, and she hasn't even tried to look for work yet.  When she eventually got around to searching for work, she'd spend maybe 20 minutes looking at job applications, and she'd call it quits for the day; by the same token, she believed that she was working "really hard" on finding a job!  And yet, for her, it was really hard.  She convinced herself that it was too "overwhelming," and that she needed to nap afterwards, because it was mentally exhausting.  I actually think this was true for her.  At the same time, it was possible for her to believe she was working "really hard," because her dad and I were enabling such a low level of functioning.  After all, she had free room, board and a suite all to herself; why endure the discomfort of searching for work?  In her mind, 20 minutes per day was considered hard, because she had little to no incentive to push herself harder.

Just some thoughts.

Notwendy,
Yes, the core of healthy relationships is that there are boundaries and common interests. My challenge is to continue to work on my boundaries. I am so grateful to all the people who have helped me grow, tolerated me despite many of my learned disordered behaviors from growing up in such as dysfunctional family. I feel so sad for this women in the park, who has been so badly abused, yet the things she tells me belong in a therapy session not in disclosures to an acquaintance. Is there any kind nice way for me to tell someone like her that what she is disclosing is inappropriate? I am okay with someone who is a long time friend telling me about a trauma. For example, a friend I have known since childhood recently disclosed that she was sexually abused by the neighborhood pedophile. I told her I was sorry. She is happily married with lots of healthy relationships and the conversation did not go into an ongoing rant about all her traumas like this women in the park does.

Pook -

Same.  I can do nearly all the housework chores for months, even help with her personal tasks, yet she will do one load of laundry and talk about how hard she worked.  And whatever task she does she will nearly always need some kind of help at some point (look, I did all the laundry, so now it is your job to put the linens away).  And if I don't recognize her accomplishment as equivalent or greater than what I have done, it's an argument.  

In her mind it is, "look what I have done, despite my physical pain and mental health challenges, AND I had to put up with you (or the kids), too!"  

But other moments the switch is the other way, "I can't seem to get anything done and my mental health is a burden to everyone and I am a piece of garbage."

the contrast between those two modes is exhausting.  

With kids, it helps them to recognize small accomplishments, even if they are routine like keeping their room clean.  It gives them a sense of personal pride and encourages them to continue.  With my W, it feels strange recognizing another adult for routine tasks. especially when no growth happens

Same here Zachira. Even when there were financial concerns- there still had to be people hired to do things for my mother. In my teen years, I knew about the concerns and offered to do more but that was refused. I don't think it was about us kids becoming independent. BPD mother was fine with us growing up and leaving home. It's that it didn't meet her needs somehow.

That was something that made my mother's family wonder if there was more going on with her. After Dad passed away she had people doing things for her. Her family would comment on that- like how many people does your mother need to have her help her?