Hi CocoNR
I have been going over your dilemma in my mind quite a bit. It's one of the hardest aspects of BPD - being placed in a corner all the time. Your situation is just one example of the way we can find ourselves in this situation -dealing with utter chaos if we are involved or connected or coping with deep anxiety about our adult child if we cut off contact.

I am wondering whether putting DD in the corner might be helpful for you. I am thinking along the lines of a text that says something like:

‘Our texts are getting nowhere DD. You need to get and accept treatment. When it gets to the point of your outbursts attracting the attention of the FBI, you should realise things are seriously wrong.

I will not be in contact until I have proof that you are accepting treatment and that you give permission to your treating doctors to allow me to talk to them. I will check my messages each Friday to see if there is one from you with the contact details of your treating doctors.
 
I love you and hope you can accept that you are seriously in need of help.’

It most likely is not going to help but it does put the ball back in her corner. I feel the bipolar might be on the money – simply from the information you gave about DD hardly going out in over three years at one point in time. There are helpful treatments for bipolar, so trying to get DD to accept it is about all you can do.
It needs to be thought through of course. How  would it be for you to ignore any message on a day other than Friday etc.

You are deep in cognitive dissonance – on the one hand your head and lots of people are saying close the door. On the other hand your heart is pulling at you because this person is your child – not theirs.

There just might be a middle path – and that is what my mind has been going over. Is there, do you think?

Hi and welcome.

If you've read the many posts here you'll see her actions are pretty standard for someone with BPD. Most of the time they themselves don't know what they want and they can switch very rapidly between wanting to know you and then wanting nothing to do with you, no matter how well you've treated them. It's all part of their illness and their distorted way of seeing things.

Sometimes by leaving them alone we're doing the wrong thing - as they want the attention - but they can also feel overwhelmed if we contact them too much, and this pushes them away even further.  BPD is often a no-win situation where everything we do is misunderstood, no matter how well intended. It really is very frustrating, as we've all found.

A middle approach would be the most logical action; let her know you're there for her but don't keep messaging and drive her away.  Bottom line  is.. she'll only come back if she wants to, and that might be just on a whim and you could - and probably will - have the same thing happen time and time again as BPD is an extremely repetitive illness as they're stuck in a 'love you / hate you' cycle.

If you're happy that you've done all you can then after you've reached out you'll just have to wait and see what happens. It's impossible to predict a BPD's actions but we can all hope for the best.

Best wishes, keep us informed of any developments, we're here for you.

Hi CocoNR,

I have been LC a few times by choice with my udd over the years. Currently we are NC by her choice.

I dont think that you should feel guilty about limiting your contact with your udd. It will give you time to give your brain a rest. Ultimately you need to protect your own mental health which is probably what your husband is also concerned about as often we seem as parents of pwbpd to exist is  a state  between worry and panic that we can never allow ourselves to switch off from.

If you are considering NC You could start out with LC by switching off your phone for a few hours per day or letting it go to VM for a while. Sending her a text saying that you are unavailable between certain hours may be useful so she knows that you havent abandoned her. You will still worry I can guarantee you but you must remember that you are doing this for you. Taking 100 calls a day from anyone  is really too much to deal with.

I also think that all threats of self harm and harm others should all be taken seriously and reported to the police.

Hi Uddermutter 123,

I remember your post about the gift for your gs and Iam so sorry that things have not improved.

I have a similiar experience of my udd backing out involving my GD which hurt me very much.

GD had a sports day coming up at her school which udd invited me to infront of Gd. As the day approached I arranged to take time off from work and contacted udd via text about the time and where we should meet.... No answer. I called her again several times as I didnt want my GD to think that I couldnt be bothered to show up after I had agreed to be there...No answer, so I sent udd one last text about it and told her that if I didnt receive a reply I wouldnt text her again about it....No answer. It hurt me tremendously especially as I knew that my Gd had told me that she was really excited for me to be there.

My later thinking was that either my udd did this on purpose just to hurt me as I had seemed too excited when she invited me. Maybe it was a just a  mindgame,  or  I was just a backup plan as she had something else planned for that day and I was to take her place and it had fallen through.  Either way it hurt a lot at the time.

Iam so sorry you havent been able to see your gc especially as he is your first GC and you have missed all the milestones of the 1st year. Iam know longer able to see my 2 eldest GC either but I did have them in my life for a few years and have lots of good memories them, but it was always a tricky road to navigate as my udd showed jealousy and always wanted total power and control over what I said and did with my GC and often told me how useless I was while also wanting me to drop everything to have them at short notice. The youngest Gc udd I have never met and it has hurt a lot less not knowing this child than to be torn out of their lives again.

I think your DIL is jealous of the previous r/s you and your husband had with your ss and spreading negativity about you both to your ex husbands wife is to keep you all at arms length. I think that  your DIL may even have  started a smear campaign about you to s/s mother and that is why her attitude  towards you both has changed. I think that is worth asking her if you have upset her in some way. She actually may be dying to say something to you but may not know how to approach the subject.

I think that your ss had good intentions but couldnt go through meeting up with his father because of pressure from DIL. It sounds like he may be in a very cohesive r/s and is probably too beaten down mentally to go through with what he would really like to do which is to meet up with his father. My guess is that he misses the both of you and would like to reconcile. If this wasnt the case he wouldnt be reaching out to him to just tell you both to stay away.

Keep it in your hearts that all hope is not lost and that he is thinking about you and I agree that sending a little note would let him know that you are still open to re-establishing contact with him when he is ready.

Thankful,

I think you might try to have a talk with your wife when she's calm.  If you confront her in the moment, she's already upset and will probably get extremely defensive.

I agree with ForeverDad, it sounds like your spouse is competing with you rather than partnering with you.  She could be jealous when the children approach you for help first.  I think this is akin to the fear of abandonment that is so triggering for pwBPD--in essence she feels the kids are rejecting and "abandoning" her in favor of you.  It might also be a control thing--she wants full ownership and control over the kids, maybe because she feels she lacks control in all other parts of her life?  Maybe it's an issue of identity--when the kids start to pull away, exert independence or approach you rather than her, she feels like she's "less" of a Mum, and if she's not a Mum, then who is she anyway?

But the way I see things, you are married, and you are just as much a parent as she is.  While you may divvy up some caretaking responsibilities according to preferences and skills, you should have equal say on the important things.  With so many little ones, I think the reality is that the kids need BOTH parents.  It's not the kids' job to worry about which parent to approach for help, or to worry about offending their Mum.  But right now, it seems to me you two aren't on the same page.  It just isn't feasible for your spouse to control 100% of what happens to the kids because she's in college and needs your help.  She needs to learn to share the decision-making and share the joys of parenting as well.  Love should be multiplied, not divided.

I think you talk to her about this.  I'd try not to blame her, but try to develop a shared vision of the family dynamic.  One approach I mentioned earlier--since your spouse appears to feel left out of parenting in the mornings, she could reduce her course load so that she can be awake when the kids are up.  That way, she doesn't have to feel she misses out so much.  She wouldn't have to reduce her course load forever--she could frame it as "ramping up."  Even for a person without BPD, going to college while handling childcare simultaneously is a huge adjustment.  It might help if she had more time to adjust to it, and get back into the practice of doing academics again, just at a more gradual pace.

As for the problem of getting bent out of shape if you comfort a kid at nighttime, I might frame that as, "I put our little one back to bed so that you wouldn't be awakened.  I was being nice and helpful."  Now, she might see that as an affront.  You might ask her, "Why do you think I did something wrong?"  She might fly off the handle and accuse you of disobeying her, excluding her, disrespecting her and her wishes, trying to turn her kid against her, etc.  If she gets really bent out of shape, then I think she's not able to listen to you anymore, and you might need to stop talking.  Nevertheless, you'll have some clues about her distorted thinking process.  But if she's reasonably calm, and if you stay calm, you can insist, you did what was right for the child, AND you were doing something nice for her, too.  I think that deep down, she knows she's being unreasonable.  Just repeat your stance, calmly, reassuringly, "I did the right thing, and I wanted to do something nice for you too," and maybe it will start to sink in.  Maybe not at that second, but sometime down the road.  You see, pwBPD tend to assume the worst, and they see negatives where there aren't any.  Sometimes I think they need help to clarify things, reframe them and learn to see some positives.

I have arguments like this with my own spouse.  He has a habit of accusing me of futuristic things that haven't even happened, like:  "Don't get upset if she's late for dinner!!!!"  My standard response to this is, "Please don't pick on me for things I haven't done."  If he berates me more, I'll say, "I'm not discussing something that hasn't even happened," and I might leave the room to get away.  I say these phrases so often that he starts to see what he's doing, and now he'll back off more quickly, because he sees how he's being naggy, unfair and projecting his own insecurities onto me.  Arguing about things I haven't actually done is just as silly about arguing about how you comfort the kids and let your wife get restful sleep.  But I think the root of it all is deep insecurity, as well as a general feeling of overwhelm and lack of agency.

Another tactic I'd recommend is abundant praise, and pointing out the good things.  Let's say your wife has a restful sleep.  I might say something like, "Isn't it wonderful to get a full night's sleep?"  Or, "The kids are all dressed and ready!  Now they can give Mum a huge good morning hug!"  I guess what I'm saying is that you can manufacture some happy moments and remind everyone how good the day is, just by praising the simplest things.  With my spouse, I try to notice something nice that he does every day, and praise him for it:  "It's wonderful to have a husband who makes such good coffee."  And I mean it.

Hello again,

I really feel for you, I know how hard it is when a person with BPD is „in their cycle“. I would suggest you try to negotiate this new boundaries when she is calm, like that it is ok children show  you the picture first, that you do not have to tell your wifeif D4 just needed a little reassurence in the night and you did not make a whole thing out of it by waking your wife also. As I am sure, you are aware, a parent without personality problems would probably be proud of D4 that she was a brave girl and went back to her bed. I am wondering, what woukd happen if you tokd your wife next time this happens and she seems in a good moo, how proud you were od D4 that she went back to her own bed during the night? I would not mention she did not want to go to mom’s bed, just trying to keep it positive?

As for something concreete to say when your wife demands from your children to not get pictures out of their bags without her, I would try responding calmly that ofcorse children have a right to get things out of their bags without her or you, it might happen that a friend or a teacher is the first one to be shown a picture and that is normallynd ok  too. I would  also immediatley say to a child that she did nothing wrong snd that she was acting normal and try to get her away from raging mum.

 I think that boundaries should be renegotiated in calm times and as was said before, routine a bit reformed, CC43‘s answer is very usfull and this is one of the battles I think you should pick. Maybe also make a strategy with your wife what to do if one of you (that she does not feel threatened) is screemeing, like that the other should take the children away etc.
I wish you the best of luck and calm nerves to stoicly make these boundaries work.

If it helps to have some insight from the "other side"- this is the dynamic I grew up in. My BPD mother perceived herself from the victim perspective and my father took on the rescuer role. (Karmpan triangle dynamics). As CC43 described "black and white thinking" - my mother perceived people as being "on her side" or "not her side". While it doesn't make sense that something as trivial as buying the "wrong" toy would elicit this dynamic- for this dynamic to prevail- there needs to be someone or something that has "wronged" her. For some reason it's the people closest to the spouse that are disliked, perhaps because it feels threatening to them.

The illusion for me was seeing her as the problem and my father as the good guy victim in this dynamic, but the dynamic involved the two of them. Maybe, like your stepson, he saw this as the only way to hold the family together. What I do know is that he was in "survival" mode doing so- working, supporting us, and also dealing with a disordered spouse and that her reaction to not having things her way was way worse than to disappoint/dismiss the family members who were not disordered. This is the only way I know to rationalize this. It isn't anything you or your husband did or didn't do, so trying to reason or  explain to the BPD spouse doesn't work.

The making contact and then backing out behavior is due to your stepson's situation and him wrestling with his own conscience. I believe he knows better and I believe he wants contact. He likely set up the meeting and insisted on it but as the time/date got closer, his wife escalated to the point where he had to back down in order to manage.

Truly, the only person who can change this dynamic is your step son, if he ever chooses to do that. I understand it's little consolation to you and your H to know this is not personal to either of you. It's not about buying the wrong toy. Your step son isn't rejecting either of you. Why he's engaging in this dynamic isn't logical.

On your part, I think it's good to maintain some contact, but not emotional or reactive. If you can send a Christmas card to your son's workplace- he is more likely to receive it, or text him when he's at work. He may not be able to reply ( my mother read my father's emails and listened in on phone calls) but he may at least see them. Texts like "thinking of you this Christmas"- that don't ask for a reply let him know the door is still open to him, should he choose to engage.

Parenting is a joint venture that ought to be focused on togetherness.  Sounds like she's competing with you, which isn't a healthy thing to do.  I don't know how to compete with that.  Criticism and lack of respect is so destructive.

Thank you CC43 for your kind words and advice and also forever dad for your perspective. I’m fully committed to doing the right thing. So next time my wife is shouting  at me or the kids about some ridiculous thing they’ve done like the example above, how am I to respond? What about when she says things like, “you know I don’t like them getting pictures or things out of their bags without me!” She mostly expresses this in the light that she finds it deeply upsetting, and knows that most other people wouldn’t feel the same way.

Ahhhh…I just want to scream!  My uBPDh split about a week ago, as usual, I have no idea why. As we are currently living apart, as he is on probation and there was a protection order on me, which I have adjusted so we could live together, but have decided to not do so until he is off probation. He showed up to our son’s basketball game this past Saturday with my stepdaughter. My youngest wanted to go with him after the game as she wanted to see her stepsister, as she rarely sees her. I agreed, as he was in his phase where he treats the kids like royalty but anyone else, especially me, like crap. The next morning, he texts me to say he will drop her off at our house at 10:40.  Ok.  Essentially, I am a single mom of 4 very active kids right now, that works part time, has a prn position and just interviewed for another PRN position as I can’t afford to support 4 kids(including paying for daycare on the days we both work cause why would it be his responsibility to do so), myself, all of our house bills and living bills. I am completely exhausted, if I am to do anything for myself I have to get up at 4 or 5 am to attempt to work out. My D, SD and H get to the house and I was upstairs getting ready for the day. I come downstairs and of course get a face because I didn’t run over to the door. H and SD leave and my daughter gets upset because I took my other daughter to get her nails done as we had planned to do, but my youngest chose to go with my h. My D starts crying because of this and my H comes flying back in the house. That threw me over the edge as he wants no responsibility, he was ready to go to the gym and do for him, but tried to make it seem like he was this amazing dad. I loathe it and did not walk away like I should have. After that, he text me “to document” that he was the one comforting our children, blah blah blah! I just erased it and went on with my day. I gave space for a couple of days, then reached out to let him know that the kids and I had gotten safely to our vacation spot for Thanksgiving and then on Thanksgiving to say happy Thanksgiving, that we loved him and missed him. I got no response. This is not the first time he has done this, I plan to just continue to give space and to reach out to his sister, who knows the  situation, on Monday if I don’t hear from him to make sure he is ok. I know when he doesn’t respond it is best to give space. I am struggling, but feel for my kids, as they deserve to have their dad be a part of their lives everyday and that’s not possible.
As if things are not hard enough, my kids and I are away to celebrate Thanksgiving with my side of the family. While my H was first excited to go, he then backed out. My parents are older and while healthy, my dad struggles with his memory and their lives are very different than mine or my sister’s (who has 1 child). My sister has always been very opinionated and pushes her way of life onto everyone. Prior to our trip I had to have a meeting with her, at her request, to agree on a plan for when the kids can use iPads on our trip, as she won’t let her son watch and I don’t care if and when my kids do. Her “compromise” was that iPads not be brought in the vacation! to which I didn’t agree. Well, tonight my sister was talking to my mom at dinner, her son bumped into my mom and my mom turned her attention to him for a split second. My sister lost it in my mom. Stood up, started sternly talking to my mom as her boyfriend (of 27 years she refuses to get married) walks out. I ask her to leave as well as I am not ok making a scene, to which she tells me then that I should leave. She tells her son to leave, and he asks to stay with my kids, to which she does not agree. They finally leave. I take my parents back to the house as well as my kids. My d11 was crying at the restaurant, her response to fighting. She is covered in a rash when we get home. I ask my sister if she has any Benadryl and she loses it on me, that I have all of these issues and why am I backing my parents, blah blah blah. I told her that I refuse to talk to her when she is amped up, and that I am leaving to get my daughter medication. I get back, and my sister is verbally attacking my mom in the kitchen with all of the kids around. I ask her to stop and do this another time when tempers are lower and she starts screaming at me. I tell her my daughter was crying and that is unacceptable. She then goes into my mom bed room and continues her verbal assault. My dad goes to step in and she verbally attacks him (he is 80) my sister tells him to stay out and he says no that’s my wife you are talking to. He then goes to my sisters boyfriend and my sister storms out and screams so loud at my dad slams doors, etc All of the kids are screaming at this point. I go to comfort the kids, including my nephew, she comes to get him and try’s to apologize to the kids but I close the door. About an hour later, she comes up and asks if I need any help packing…um no not from you! I don’t even know what to do. My sister and I are very close, and so are our kids, they play sports together, etc…but honestly I don’t want anything to do with her right now. No I am sure that I am not perfect and I am sure my parents aren’t either, but WTF! That was NOT ok and I think we need some space from her for a long time. I don’t think that I can just pretend that didn’t happen…I just want to hide in a cave with my kids! Not really! But I can’t deal with others issues any more!