CC43,  I wanted to thank you for sharing your Thanksgiving reflections. It's so nice to notice the positives and achievements even if small with love who are living life with bpd. I related to your stepdaughter avoiding family gatherings.  It used to hurt a lot not having my oldest son with ubpd join the family. I took it personally as he told me how I weird and stupid our family was. He never put down any family member. I'm the one he saves that type of sharing with. Last year he told me not to  invite him because he feels bad for not attending. Though he managed to pop in for an hour or so. This year he didn't come and he sent a text the said I love you Mom. It was fine he wasn't here. Easier in many ways. What I know is that it's painful for him. I can't and don't need to fix it.   

Idk how to have a productive discussion with my adult undiagnosed bpd. I thought if I wrote about a recent attempt that someone would be able to point out what I'm missing. My son had his own small business that he needed to transition out of because of a fluctuating income and I believe his own mismanagement. I have covered more bills than I ever should have this last year. Anyway, to his credit, he applied for and was hired for a great position that matches his skill set. He has a son half time as he's divorced. I've been wondering what he's worked out for school transportation on his days. I have been doing Frudays for a couple year. I'm not jumping in. Idk what my son's hours are and if he's worked things out with new employers. I don't typically hear details of my sons life. I'm called when he's doing poorly, needs to share pain, suicidal thoughts, needs help...
I did text him asking if we could talk in the next couple days. (Crickets) I'm thinking he must have childcare issues worked out.
Finally we chatted. I needed to tell him that I would be out of town on my Friday to pick up grandson. My grandson wouldn't be stuck. He can easily take a school bus to his Mom's house which he does several times a week anyway.  My son went into panic,  said I ruined his day, now he's doing really bad, this is why he hasn't taken a job where he couldn't get his son.... I told him I understand that but I'm wanting to support you so you can take this job. He said he just realized he needed help with his son. That I should say to him that I would take care of rides not say I want to support him. Then he told me he can't have these kinds of conversations with me and stop texting about this. I destroyed his day. So I stopped .texting.  Later he text asking a random question and said he loved me. Turns out he's out of town and won't need me on the Fiday I'm on vacation. Last I heard was he started the new job December 1st, Today I'm told December 8th. My mind wants to connect the dots of little info I get. I have to let that go thiugh. I feel like I've been caught in a wave and flipped around a few times. Good news is I thought all these kind of interactions because I'm at fault.  Now I'm understanding more is involved. Does anyone one have a thought of how I got lost ?
Thanks.

Been a while!

I would say im still in shock a little bit from the way everything went down with my ex. Looking back at it all it's really wild how it all went down. I looked back at my old phone and saw some texts. It did fill me with grief to look at it all again, at the same time it was validating. I don't feel crazy for feeling the feelings that I felt after that breakup. I don't blame myself for being confused like I was. Honestly the good and baseline were all really nice. It's just the cognitive dissonance from the negatives I guess.

What a tragedy. I still have a photo of her on my old phone. It's so tragic from my pov simply that she doesn't share the same sentiment I do (Or not in the same way because of disordered thinking) when she looks at those texts. It was a simple exchange. She wanted me to get some snacks and then thanked me. I was heading over to her place. So simple yet for me all those tiny moments are filled with such love. She was my princess. Fully.

It's really sad. On the bright side though, im getting myself a dog. Me and my buddy will take on the world. I'm still working hard on myself and learning a lot as I go.

Honestly I have questions still on whether or not she thinks about me or moved on. I know it's just the grief though. I can't relate to her like that. I don't think she really thinks about me in exactly the same way I think about her. As time passes Its getting easier to live with it. Yesterday was one of the first days in a long time where I was excited for the next day. I don't typically have that feeling.

Really odd that this person was in my life. They existed side by side through so much and poof just like that they disappear. What can you do at the end of the day I guess. I'm still curious how I would do now given everything I learned. However I understand also that this would always be what happens. Its part of the dysfunction, not being able to maintain long lasting intimate relationships. It's really sad. Oh well.

I'm so sorry that you are going through all of this. I'm glad that you and your husband are on the same page now. My therapist helped me to reframe a healthy relationship with my step daughter/husband's daughter (24 yo) not as the one that I want, but as one in which my husband and I make and keep important boundaries with her and which we protect our relationship first.

Our daughter really doesn't like us much because her mother (also BPD) engaged in a lot of parental alienation and set fake boundaries (no consequences for breaking through boundaries). She also doesn't like that we respond to her rages by gray rocking (at least most of the time, ). She accuses us of being passive aggressive because we try to avoid JADEing (justifying, arguing, defending, or explaining). We also have been fairly good at setting boundaries, which she doesn't like. Before she was 18, she would primarily live with her mother until that relationship would blow up. Then she would stay with us for a few months until things cooled down. Then she would go to live with her mother again.

The last time that we saw her, she had blown up all of her relationships over a year or so, her mother had kicked her out of the house for real the first time, she had been evicted from a guy's house that she had a 1 night stand with and decided to stay, and no one else would take her in (toxic behavior, false accusations, etc.). She called us asking if she could move in, we told her only if she continued complying with her mental health agreement (therapy, actively working on sobriety/clean time) AND we would have a peaceful house. She said that she wouldn't kiss our a$$3$ for a place to live and we told her that she's an adult and that's her choice. She has always used the threat of homelessness as emotional blackmail to get her way. When we said , "Fine," she would just move back in with her mother. Now she didn't have anywhere to go, so we paid for a hotel for 1 night and got her set up with a long term homeless shelter for people with mental illness. She got kicked out of there after a few days because she couldn't get along with people. She lived in her car a week or so before her mom's boyfriend helped her to get into a different shelter in a different town.

None of us have heard from her, but we know she's still alive because we pay for her mental health therapy and we're still getting billed. I'm thankful that she's getting help. My husband and I are heartbroken, but she can't live with us and we can't be around her because it's so hard on our mental health. We love her and we worry for her. We long for the relationship that we wish we had, but not the one that we have had for several years. She's finding a way to survive, even if we don't know what's going on. Our lives are much more peaceful now. We hope that she's finding peace, too. I hope that having to find her own way will help her to get desperate enough to focus on healing herself rather than blame everyone else. I also hope that she will be more afraid of being homeless than going back to school or getting a job and sticking with it even when it's uncomfortable for her. She's exceptionally intelligent and can be a hard worker. We told her that we would pay for tuition. She wouldn't even have to talk with us. All she would have to do is have the university contact us to set up billing.

THIS:

"BPD mother completed a college degree before she married my father. She was very intelligent, book smart, but applying that intelligence to tasks- she was so anxious and insecure that it got in the way. This young person I worked with, she was similar. She did well in school but getting her through a task, her anxiety was very high.

I think the refusal to do something is a part of maintaining the appearance of competence and masking the anxiety. It saves face to refuse to do something than to admit difficulty or risk not doing it well or risking failure. This set up a chicken and egg enabling situation with my mother. If we don't ever do something, we don't get competent at it. So if she refused to bake something for a school bake sale and she got me to do it, (I had to do what she asked)  I became the better cook from practice and doing it for her enabled her to not do it.

The refusal to do something manages the anxiety over possible failure and then if there's no consequences, this enables this behavior. This is where it gets difficult. The idea of someone we care about being homeless or without food is not tolerable, so it's not a consequence. The person applying for a job doesn't have the incentive of needing the job for food and shelter to override the anxiety over possible failure."

This describes my daughter to a T.  She's exceptionally bright but she can't complete a college class if she's not getting an A. She quits jobs at the slightest discomfort. Although it's painful, she's in a long term homeless shelter now because she won't abide by our boundary that we will have a peaceful home (25 years old). Although she's choosing no contact because of this, we still pay for her mental health therapy (the provider bills us directly) and she knows that we will pay for higher education tuition if she decides to go back to school. She doesn't have to contact us, she just needs for the university to set us up as payees. I hope that she will get desperate enough to make some anxiety provoking changes in her life, like staying in a job where's she's uncomfortable or facing her fears of not being the best in her class. So far, the only thing we know is that she is getting regular mental health counseling because we are paying the bills.

Hello everyone,

I'm grateful for this community, which helps me process the behaviors of some disordered family members, and provides all sorts of tips to help cope and relate better with loved ones.

As a recap, I have an adult stepdaughter with BPD who has turned her life around with therapy.  She still struggles with "adulting," perhaps partially because she lost a bunch of formative, young-adult years to dealing with BPD dysfunction.  But she's making real progress.  It's hard to see her struggle, but she's the type of person who has to learn the "hard way" sometimes.  I guess I'd say an ongoing issue for her has been avoidance.  She's so afraid of stress, obligations and making mistakes that she tends to avoid a lot of things, to her own detriment.  She procrastinates a lot.  She'll start something with good intentions, but it seems she often doesn't follow through.  She gets discouraged very easily, and she seems to get confused by or hung up on the pesky details of real life.  She'll cycle through periods of no contact.  I guess the good news is that she's not completely "derailed" like she used to be.  For the last couple of years, she has managed to handle setbacks much better.

Anyway, I had a little hope this year that she'd join me, her dad, aunt, uncle and grandma for Thanksgiving dinner.  However, she didn't come.  This means she's still avoiding contact with supposedly "toxic" extended family members.  I guess the good news is this:  the day before Thanksgiving, she called her dad and said she wouldn't be joining us, but that she'd celebrate Friendsgiving instead.  I really appreciated that courtesy, because her typical M.O. is to leave us hanging, wondering if she'll show up.  Complete silence from her typically indicates that she's off the rails, as well as being passive-aggressively cruel to her dad and me, as we have bent over backwards, forwards and sideways to help her through the years.  I think the fact that she had arranged for a Friendsgiving is cool (I want to give her the benefit of the doubt--I can never be certain if she's just making things up as an excuse).  Even better, she actually called her dad on Thanksgiving Day, and she took a couple of minutes to wish her aunt and grandma a happy holiday.  Notably, my stepdaughter conversed briefly with her dear aunt, whom she had declared "toxic" in the past.  So that's a huge step in the right direction, in my humble opinion.

Even so, I doubt my stepdaughter will make an appearance at Christmas, when her siblings are visiting, because I think she feels upstaged by them.  She's been estranged from them for several years, claiming that they abused her.  I imagine she won't be ready for a reconciliation until she establishes her identity as an adult, and she can adopt a new, more optimistic narrative instead of clinging onto the "abusive childhood" one.  Right now, I think she feels too much insecurity and shame to face her siblings.  By the same token, I imagine her siblings are feeling some resentment, as a lot of family resources and attention have been devoted to their BPD sister.  It might not be the worst thing if she doesn't show up on Christmas Day, just so we can focus more attention on the other adult children.  But I'm certain my husband is fed up with the holidays feeling like a fragile Jenga tower . . . where one tiny wrong move, accommodation or comment brings everything tumbling down into a mess.  I think he just wants to be able to relax and enjoy it.  Wouldn't that be nice?

Anyway, during the Thanksgiving festivities, I had some alone time with my mother-in-law.  I confess I've never felt comfortable with her, and I couldn't put my finger on why.  She's intelligent and courteous, and though she's elderly and old-fashioned, she can be engaging when she wants to be.  I know she's not very comfortable leaving her home, and I completely understand that in someone her age.  But that shouldn't be a reason for my unease with her.  After talking with her for an hour, it finally hit me:  our personalities are complete opposites.  She's a dreamer, and I'm a doer.  During our conversation, she was talking exclusively about fantastical things:  winning the lottery, getting married again (at 80+, after more than five decades being single), moving homes, hosting parties, starting to paint again, selling artwork at galleries, playing music professionally for the first time.  Since I'm a doer, my default inclination is to ask details about these musings, with the notion of helping devise a plan and considering how to overcome obstacles.  But then I realized, she has no intention whatsoever of making her dreams come true; she just enjoys dreaming for its own sake.  Meanwhile, I'm thinking, it feels ridiculous to fantasize, and desire such unrealistic, sometimes wasteful things (especially the lottery); the entire conversation was frustrating for me, because from a practical, doer's perspective, failure and needless expense are guaranteed.

And then another realization hit me:  my BPD stepdaughter resembles her grandma.  She's artistic, and she's a dreamer too.  Over the years, she's dreamed of doing many things:  becoming a model, an artist, an internet influencer, a huminatarian.  She's dreamed of moving abroad, moving to a big city, volunteering in Gaza(!?!) too.  But most of the time, it seems she doesn't take any concrete steps to fulfill her dreams, let alone consider safety or logistical details.  Sometimes I think she has no clue how to go about this.  Or maybe she just doesn't have the energy or focus.  Perhaps she never had any serious intentions in the first place, because for her, it's nice just to have dreams?  Or maybe it's a refelection of BPD, as she's plagued with self-doubt and an unstable self-image.

Given my stepdaughter's relatively young age, I used to think she could make some of her dreams come true, at least partially or tangentially.  For example, she won't be a supermodel, but maybe she could find work in the fashion arena.  It's really hard to make a living selling artwork, but maybe she could work in a field that uses artistic skills, such as design, marketing or teaching.  Perhaps she could pursue modeling or artwork as fun hobbies, side-hustles or in a volunteer capacity.  When I talk with my stepdaughter, my natural inclination as a "doer" is to analyze, plan and execute.  Sometimes I've given her ideas about where and how she could get started.  But now I'm thinking, maybe she just likes dreaming for dreaming's sake.  She doesn't really want that life, and she doesn't want any help to achieve it, either, because being a "doer" doesn't fit her personality at all.  It's too mundane, too hard, too complicated, too stressful.  And come to think of it, all the other people in the family fall more on the "doer" than the "dreamer" side of the spectrum (except Grandma).  Maybe because of this, my BPD stepdaughter has felt "different," possibly excluded.  While everyone else is talking about the stuff they're doing--their jobs, their travels, their hobbies--she might feel left out?  But when she talks about her "fantasies," others might not know how to respond.  Maybe it would be better just to listen, rather than mention pesky real-life details, or offer to help, even if that goes against natural instincts?

Just my reflections on holidays and relational dynamics with BPD in the midst.  I hope the American contributors here had a wonderful Thanksgiving.

Lodi,

I have a lot of experience as the "favorite person" as well as the "villain." I hope that something that I write about may help you to understand a little bit better. Take what's useful and leave the rest. 

My person with BPD is my step-daughter. Her mother also has BPD, and has treated me and my husband terribly, including trying to alienate their kids from us. When my person started to really push against her mom, she clung to me for support. I didn't really understand how BPD worked or that my person/her mother had BPD. It felt really good that she actually liked me after years of trying to get close to her. I think that we validated each other in some ways. I didn't talk badly about her mother but I would listen and affirm that she was going through some tough waters. I also told her that it's difficult to parent teens and that parents and teens often see things very differently. I tried to help her think about different ways of responding to her mom that might be more effective. I didn't really see my person's role in what was happening and I probably affirmed that unconsciously. I'm wondering if that's happening with your other family members. It feels good to be the special, loved one. Do you think this might be happening? Are they making you the bad person so they can be the good person? [Read about splitting/all-good, all-bad thinking; Karpman Drama Triangle/triangulation]

Then as I started to see a little in terms of what I now know are BPD characteristics, I started to suggest ways that she might contributing to the difficult relationship with her mom. This caused tension between us. Then she started the whole "if you don't completely agree with me on everything, then you don't love or support me." This was long before the BPD diagnosis, and me learning about BPD. I didn't know about JADE responses then. Me not being in 100% with her perspective made me the enemy. I'm wondering if thus might be in play in your situation. Do you think anyone in your situation may be trying to keep the peace or might be fearful of becoming the villain? [Read about loyalty tests and emotional blackmail; JADE-Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain; boundary setting]

I went back and forth between the favorite and the villain off and on for several years, depending on who she was most angry with at the time. She was never close to her dad because of all the parental alienation. She and her mother both worked hard to turn me against my husband. They made accusations that he had abused the mother, that he was a sexual predator, that he was abusing me, etc...  Extended family believes that the ex was the abuser and I have seen her emotional abuse in person with the kids and my husband. If any of this had been true, the ex would have brought them up in the custody hearings, which she did not (although there were plenty of other unproven & disproven lies brought up that went no where).  I shut down the ex pretty quickly by saying that if she were so concerned about abuse that we could get a guardian ad litem involved and we could do a home study to help the courts to know what the healthiest environment for the kids was (we shared custody). she dropped accusations against him to me immediately. I have had no contact with her since then except at rare family events focused on the kids. My person off and on would try to turn me against her father (who she trusted just fine when she wanted something from him or she was on the outs with her mother) and I just had to keep saying that I had never seen the kinds of behavior from him that she was telling me about and asked her to point out specific instances when he had ever engaged in abusive behavior with me. I'm wondering in what ways that triangulation may be happening in your dynamic and how various involved people could avoid colluding against each other and engage in reality based responding if triangulation is happening. [Read about: triangulation and coalition-building; DARVO-Deny, Attack, Reverse victim and offender ; non-collusion and reality-based responding].

My therapist has helped me to see that a healthy relationship with my person is different from what I really want. For now, having a close, trusting, affectionate relationship is not an option. For my husband and I, a healthy relationship establishing firm boundaries with our daughter and making sure that our marriage is strong. We can't let BPD toxicity destroy our relationship with each other. We don't always agree on how to respond to our daughter but we trust each other, express our concerns to each other, and give each other the space to make the decisions that each of us thinks are best. I think this is working for us in a way that may not be so easy for you because my husband has had years of therapy related to his ex's BPD and I have a lot of professional background and experience in human development, including social emotional development and challenges.

We are now at no contact with our daughter and I'm mostly at peace. No more daily/weekly toxicity and chaos. I miss who she can be and I love her. I want her to be happy. I want her to get what she wants from life. I'm not angry with her.  I mourn the loss of a "could have been" relationship, but the toxicity that she currently brings into our lives is unbearable.

She went no contact because we set boundaries with her about moving back in with us (she's 25yo) when she had no other options. Our only boundaries are that she keep engaging in mental health support and taking her medications, that she actively work on being substance free (support meetings, not smoking weed and drinking in our garage all day), and that we have a peaceful house. She told us that she was not going to kiss our as$3$ for a place to stay. We helped her find a long term homeless shelter for people with mental illness. She got kicked out of the first for being difficult and now she's in a different one. It breaks my heart and I worry about her but we're learning that this is her choice and her journey.

Family dynamics can be intergenerational. When a child grows up in a family with dysfunction- it's the "normal" they know. They, then may repeat these patterns as an adult. While you may see the dysfunction in your H's family- they may have grown up in this too- and don't see it themselves. Other family members might not have BPD themselves but have learned behaviors. It's also not only in families where someone has BPD. Changing this pattern may require someone going to therapy and learning new behaviors if they are able to do that.

One common pattern is Karpman triangle dynamics. https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

Another is where there's a person with a disorder, or addiction, and other family members are enablers. People who are enabling the person assume they are helping them but they may also be enabling the person's disorder.

I think you are correct about not wanting to rock the boat in this close family as you would be seen as the one being disruptive. My BPD mother's family would rally to her side rather than to consider other possibilities.

We can't change another person, and this also extends to other family members too. It's understandable that you are concerned this situation may interfere with your H's working on himself. For someone to do this work, they, themselves, need to be motivated to do it. So, family or not, this is his work to do. So while his family may be an issue in him doing this- your H is the one who is responsible for his own therapy. There are two sides to this- while it may appear his family is ruining the last shot- he also is a part of this- they aren't to blame entirely. Just like he's a part of the situation- so are they and they will continue to be his family. I hope for all of you that he does the work but it will ultimately be up to him.

After a split me and husband are trying again. This really is make or break and I don't expect it to be easy or for everything to change overnight, but things just can't go back to the way they were. The issue I'm having at mo is my bpd husband is waiting for more therapy and lowered his meds by a lot. I have put some boundaries in place to protect both myself and our son, BUT his family constantly make me and son out to be the villains and husband the victim. I see no point in arguing as drama is the end result they want but it's almost undoing any of the work and behaviour changes we're trying to make.

It's a constant battle of, why are u trying to change him, maybe u need to change. Everything I'm trying not told tolerate anymore, they make our to be normal. It's a complete dysfunctional family, most of them with multiple partners under the same roof all competing for attention, and everything is flipped on its head and they are always the victims. They do the most cruel, heartless and abusive things to their partners, then all black each other up and claim that they're the ones being mistreated, and I'm pretty sure they actually believe it too. They're a close family so I don't want to come between them, just don't want this to ruin our last shot. Any ideas?

Sancho,
I've reread your post several times. I'm just beginning to believe that I can allow myself to  have fun and not feel guilty because my son suffers. I'm trying anyway. I love him very much but I need to start doing things differently because my help isn't helping. And my anxiety  is hurting me. I am thankful this community is here. I know I need just as much help as he does. I've started therapy, and am doing lots of reading. So far he wants to keep on his path.
I will be practicing the three "C's"