I'm going to make a list of things uBPDx said/ did around suicidal ideation and suicidality, and see if that brings me some clarity:

- When we first got to know each other, within days, he randomly messaged 'I want to kill myself' then brushed it off.

- He later expressed more explicit suicidality, but also expressed that he didn't want to be a burden to me.

- Within weeks, he was in a state of extreme distress and expressed (I believe genuine) suicidality resulting in me essentially becoming his full time carer for a month. I took on this role voluntarily and even 'happily' (not happily, but I wanted to help someone I loved) and was not pressured by him.

- At the time, he blamed a friend for his mental state, saying it was 'partly  because of him I feel this way' and that his friend made him feel 'guilty for being alive'

- After this, he was somewhat 'better', however, still expressed suicidality regularly. When I told him this was hard/ traumatising for me he said 'ngl, this makes it harder for me to tell you if i'm going to hurt myself'. He didn't acknowledge any of the impacts on me at all, and nor did he offer to do anything to try and make it easier.

- He also said quite a few times that his suicidal ideation made him a better person than other people, or revealed that he had stronger values than other people (and one other person in particular). Later, it was revealed he had actually violated these values quite a lot, and that was the context where I yelled '________ing kill yourself!'

- After I said the toxic and harmful thing, he went to his friends including affair partner to characterise me as horrible.

- Once, when we were in McDonalds and I wanted to stay where it was warm and he wanted to go outside, he flippantly suggested that the noise inside made him want to kill himself. I told him that it was really ________ed up to threaten self harm like this, and he acknowledged this and apologised.

- There was the 3.5 hour spiral incident I've described where he berated me for not reacting enough to his threats of self harm.

- He never saw a counsellor, Googled mental health resources or did anything for his mental health apart from going to occasional meditation sessions after I insisted.

- At the end of the relationship, he told me I make him feel 'guilty for existing'. I pointed out that he had said this about his friend who supposedly made him feel 'guilty for being alive'. He responded by looking at me with hate and saying, 'are you trying to make me feel bad for wanting to kill myself'.

What seems to emerge is a pattern where uBPDx repeatedly expressed suicidal ideation as a way of eliciting a particular response (attention, care, drama, portraying himself as 'better' than other people) or position within a relationship. When that response was withdrawn or was in danger of being withdrawn, he took steps to prevent this from happening, including trying to induce or exacerbate feelings of fear I might have regarding his suicidality. He never took any steps to care for his own mental health or to alleviate the impact his actions were having on me.

It seems like he used suicidal ideation as a way of getting certain benefits, responses or even power over others (me)... is that a fair way of characterising it given the facts I have shared?

At the same time, I don't know if it was particularly calculated.


Pook, you've got it.

I'm pretty shaken because this is such manipulative, controlling yet also desperate behaviour.

I understand the hurt and somewhere in your mind you think it is the "right" thing to do to contact her ex and psych. Do not under any circumstances do anything of the sort. First, it will not turn out as you hope in your mind. Second, it could backfire on you and bring you more undue stress. This is a zero sum game where there is no upside or ceiling and it is just all floor and downside.

Your focus should strictly be on yourself and healing. Anyone with allegiance to your now ex will not be in a position to help you. Reach out here or reach out to those you trust. You want people on your side that will support you and not have any potential conflict.

I know it may not feel like it now, but you are going to survive and you are going to get through this. We are here for you.

Please be kind to you and please take care of yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

Thank you for the wisdom everyone. It means a lot.

I just want to clarify a couple things - there's a lot of context and I hope I haven't mis-explained things to people - there's a couple of details I haven't shared before because they're hard to explain. The suicide of my friend happened before I knew uBPDx. He wasn't reacting or trying to deflect attention from that.

The situation was, he had his own (genuine, severe) mental health issues and was bringing up suicide with me at least one and often multiple times per day for some months.

While I was willing to support him, over time, this became pretty exhausting, traumatic and taxing for me, and at some point I told him that I found it really hard to keep on hearing continuous suicidal ideation, especially given my experiences. i.e., I was still grieving the violent death of someone close to me who had suicided. uBPDx brushed this off, and continued to express his suicidal ideation to me on a regular basis, while not expressing it to others from whom he could have also asked for support.

The '________ing kill yourself!' was something I said upon learning that he had severely violated some values that we both nominally shared. Furthermore, the moral violation he had committed went directly to his supposed motivations for wanting to kill himself, and made him seem really hypocritical.

I'm sorry to be vague about it, it's quite a particular situation and hard to explain. I guess I'm just asking you to take on faith that in context, I was reacting to a huge moral violation and a betrayal, but also, that he was not in that moment goading me or attempting to elicit a response, and he was genuinely devastated by my reaction.

That said, there is a lot of insight and wisdom in your analyses.


CC43, I'm still not sure if I would define the relationship as a whole as abusive, and I do not think uBPDx was abusive in this interaction. That said, I think you are spot on in the thing about the salient details. I did not simply say 'kill yourself!' to him out of the blue. I said it after him spending months saying 'i'm gonna kill myself, i'm gonna kill myself...' to me regularly and at times in a very flippant way. Saying it a couple of times, or only in moments of genuine crisis, is one thing. But doing it again and again, after I had told him this was traumatic for me and he chose not to stop, is another. It felt really unfair for him to characterise it as a shocking, unheard of thing to say, when it had been fed into my ear for months.
 Initially, I baulked at your characterisation of this as him 'goading' me, I don't think it was so deliberate, but I think what you say about


has a ring of truth.

TellHill, I am really sorry to hear about how your BPDx used suicide threats as a mechanism of control, and I am glad you have come through with some resilience from that.

NotWendy and PeteWitsend and Me88, it's interesting you're all noticing the same thing re the impulse to triangulate. I believed, and still believe, that uBPDx had the right to talk to people around him and seek support after I acted in a toxic and harmful fashion - and while the circumstances make it more understandable, I do believe I acted in a toxic and harmful fashion. 

But it's 'interesting' that, once again, the person he called first was the affair partner with whom he had destroyed his previous relationship. It's also 'interesting' that they spent a lot of time commiserating about the 'abusive' relationships they had experienced and how I was similar to her abusive ex-husband - the same one she had cheated on with uBPDx. I never heard the full details about what this person did which was abusive, but the affair partner had also characterised uBPDx's former partner (the one he cheated on with her) as 'horrible' to uBPDx, and uBPDx had repeated this to me.

This may well have been true - I don't know the facts. But uBPDx never seemed to consider that maybe the affair partner was not the most unbiased judge of the issue, and in hindsight it seems like there was some self justification going on by both parties. uBPDx also mentioned a few times that one of the things that went wrong with the previous relationship (the one where he cheated) was that his former partner's mother died, and his partner was depressed and didn't 'want' him.

Knowing what I know about him now, it seems plausible that his need for attention and inability to cope with her grief might have been issues as much as her being 'horrible'. 

Finally, it's 'interesting' that once the affair partner realised the uBPDx was not going to break up with me, she immediately disappeared from his life after having been his 'rock' (his words) during the conflict with me....

Now that I write it out like that, oh man.

NotWendy, the story about the man on the bridge made me go '!!!'

Although it isn't nice to say, in these relationships we tend to find ourselves acting out of character. They truly love drama and start fights just to get you to react...then run off telling everyone how horrible you are.

In the beginning of my relationship she had regular contact with her ex fiancé...she volunteered to live in his house to watch his dogs while he was deployed. We got into so many fights about how much they talked and the way they talked. 'If I die, please take care of our boys'....wasn't even in a combat zone as there was no war going on. 'our boys'?.... after hours of arguing I said 'I'm so tired of this person being a third wheel in our relationship! I wish he would die like he's so concerned about!'....I really didn't wish that. I just wanted that person out of her life and out of our relationship.

Another time I was uninvited from holiday parties, a wedding, and more by her best friend. Apparently her friend knew too much about how toxic and abusive I was and she didn't want me to ruin anyone else's life. Insane. Again, per usual, hours long argument where I'm told how awful I am, how it's my fault I've ruined relationships and how I need to change.

Stupidly, I say 'why do you keep pulling in 3rd parties and sharing lies, made up stories or things with no context! I'm tired of this. Do you not think I vent about you and ask for advice? Yet no one hates you because I tell the whole story including what I did. I wish your friend would get in a plane crash or just disappear!'

I didn't really want these people dead. Knowing what I do about bpd now, her ex was a victim too and was trapped in the loop. Her friend was reacting to what she was told with zero context. My thought process and words should have been 'I just want these people out of my relationship and to know the truth'. We all say horrible things at times but the good thing is we know it's wrong and have apologized.

Hi there,

Based on the tone of your post, I'd say you want to support your sibling and you should try to do that.  Now, you can't control what your mom does, but if you think she wants the same as you (i.e. to support your sibling), then it's possible that she could keep her act together to achieve that goal.  You're right, getting into the various reasons for going no-contact isn't appropriate at a family event like the one you describe . . . and my hope would be that everyone would decide to be the "bigger person" and put their differences aside for the duration of the event, while treating everyone with civility and respect.  If you think that's possible, then I'd say, you go support your sibling.

Other possibilities here would be to talk to your sibling, and say something like, "I really want to support you at your big event, but I'm fearful that issues between me and Mom could detract from that.  I'm prepared to do whatever you think is best."  Maybe that means, coming to the event and hanging close to a neutral person as a "buffer," or possibly "popping in" for a short visit to minimize direct contact with your Mom, or maybe (if there are seating assignments), working out with your brother a low-contact seating arrangement.  In the most dramatic case, maybe that means your brother understands that you're going to decline to participate in the big event, but that you show your support in another way, say at a side-event for the siblings only.  The big caveat here is whether your mom has enlisted your brother as an ally on "her" side, by inventing stories of victimization and ill treatment by you, creating a potentially toxic triangle.  If you think that's the case, then I wouldn't enter the triangle at all and wouldn't consult the brother about your concerns.

Notwendy brings up a good point, which is that some pwBPD can "hold themselves together" in front of people they want to impress.  If your mother is like that, and if the event is a situation where she wants to impress others, then I think you take the risk.  If she's like that, then I think you give her a quick hug, say "It's nice to see you," and then quickly re-focus the conversation on your sibling ("This is wonderful, I'm so happy for him.")  Then make a little excuse ("Oh, I've got to go say hello to cousin/I've got to freshen up, I'll catch up with you later") and then make your exit.

Look, I'm not sure how old you are, but when I was a young adult, there were times when I didn't contact my parents for weeks or months . . . not because I went LC, but just because I was busy and needed to break the "child" routine!  Initially, I'm sure my mom was "hurt" by that, because she really wanted ("needed") to talk to me every day, as she was somewhat emotionally clingy.  But eventually, we established a more "reasonable" amount of contact (for me at least), with a half-hour call, two or three times a month.  But before getting there, I had to break her of the habit of calling me all the time (e.g. at 7 am on Saturdays and during working hours).  That's a long-winded way of saying, I think that going NC or LC with parents in early adulthood is normal, because you have your adult life to live!  While not talking to your mom since August is a lengthy break, it's not unheard of, and it could be completely justified ("I've been really tied up with work and studies, I didn't realize it has been that long").  I guess that's why on these boards, when it comes to NC or LC, I generally recommend sending pwBPD a short greeting on critical days, such as Christmas or a birthday, just as a civil and kind gesture of acknowledgement, provided that you're feeling up for it.

I'll close with another idea for you regarding logistics.  I've found that when visiting with difficult family members, it's best if I arrange for my own hotel room and transportation.  I'll usually decline invitations from a host with a reply like, "You've already got a lot on your plate / I don't want to impose / I've got hotel points that are about to expire," etc.  If I have my own hotel room and car/Uber, then I'm not reliant on anyone else, and if I need space, I can take it.  By the same token, pwBPD tend to feel overwhelmed by the stress of events like the one you describe, so if they can retreat to their own quarters, without having to worry about YOUR meals/lodging/transportation, that takes some stress out of the situation.  I'd say, even though it's a little expensive, you go ahead and book your own hotel room and rental car.  Think of it as emotional insurance for a potentially stressful event.

Just my two cents.

I didn't want to say too much about your mother but she's a part of this too. This may be the family dynamic she grew up with.

Most of my mother's FOO are not disordered but I have heard people talk about distant family members not speaking to each other, for reasons I don't know.

There was a time when BPD mother was angry at me and they aligned with her and didn't communicate with me. I will admit, - that was difficult. I cried alot over it but I stepped away from drama with them.

Eventually, they did reconnect with me, and I decided I would not talk to them about her- not triangulate. Eventually we did discuss her in the context of the issues in her elder years- they were concerned about her, so I kept them informed but this was not triangulating. I also decided to not triangulate with her about other family members.

I kept in mind that anything I said to anyone in her circle would be shared with her.

This is why I think your mother being the go between is perpetuating your D's distance with you. She is actually communicating with you, and hears about you through your mother. She doesn't need to contact you directly.

"Keep your cards to yourself". Stepping off the triangle is a silent decision, not a reaction. It's a decision to not share as much personal or emotional content in order to lessen the drama. If you are venting to your mother, and your D is- mother's  the go between. Don't say anything about what you are doing, just take the emotion down. Focus on you and your own activities.

PwBPD's seem to gravitate to drama. The less you are involved in it, the less they are inclined to keep it up, at least with you.

I think this is one of the complications of going NC. Does going NC require avoiding other family members or events?

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. It's what you think you can manage. NC, and how long to keep NC, is a personal decision, as is what family events to go to.

I did not go NC with my BPD mother, for several reasons but one of them was that, other family members were connected to her and I still wanted a relationship with them. LC was the choice I could manage better.

LC isn't only about frequency of contact. It's also the emotional content of the contact, choosing what to share, what not to share, and avoiding emotionally charged exchanges.

#1 decision is- can you hold it together at this event, no matter what your mother does? It could go either way with her. For my BPD mother, she was more inclined to hold it together in front of extended family and friends at an event. PwBPD may also act up, escalate, during big events but she was more likely to do this when it was just with me or immediate family.

If it were me, and I decided to go, I would give her a hug and act as if all is normal. I would not want to get into anything at a family event, and also I would want to keep the event focused on your brother. I would also make sure I was not alone with her, so there's no opportunity to get into a discussion and so you can feel emotionally safer. Keep someone with you at all times, even if you are going to the ladies' room- find a cousin or friend to go with you.

Have a way to get to a safe place if something starts up. Shorten your visit if you attend, don't stay in the same place as your mother does.

If seeing your mother will be too traumatic for you,then don't attend. Your emotional well being is priority here.

You've gotten some good advice from other posters. Although we can not possibly know all that goes on in someone else's relatioship, or say what someone should do, I saw something in your posts you may want to consider.

Growing up in a family where there is disorder, children can learn behaviors that are adaptive in that family but are actually disfunctional, even if they don't have a disorder. You have mentioned the freezing/fawning response. Another is difficulty with boundaries, and also with saying "no". It is good you are working with a counselor to make changes with these behaviors.

Boundaries are not something we look to another person to do. They are a core value, a knowing of who we are and who we aren't. They determine our response to situations that may violate or challenge your boundaries. They are what we stand for and they can be individual- not something we judge as right or wrong.

There's a song, by Meatloaf, with the line "I would do anything for love, but I won't do that". He doesn't define what "that"is.  Each person defines their own "that". It's a boundary.

Ten years with this person- you have moved to her country, moved in with her family, made all kinds of compromises. But in all these years, there is the one thing you will not do, and that is marry. But you are looking at this as if this is something you need to fix, as if there's something wrong with not doing it, as if you need to fix the relationship so you can do it, but what if this is something to listen to, not to fix?

Boundaries are who we are. Not something wrong. Marriage is a choice. It's not wrong to not want to marry someone. It seems you might be pathologizing this- but it's not. We choose to marry or not marry. There doesn't have to be something wrong with either person to not want to marry them.

We also can choose what values we want in the person we marry. For some, it might be on the basis of religion, or culture, or common goals, or personal traits. It's not wrong to make a decision according to our own values and goals or even preferences. It's an individual decision.

Marriage also doesn't change the other person. Whatever issues are there before marriage will be there after. In 10 years, I think you have seen this relationship as it is. The bottom line is that you can decide about this.

What is complicating the situation is the circumstances.  In your situation it seems your ability to say "yes" or "no" may be compromised. You are in her country, living with her parents, and saying "no" would have consequences, even possibly harmful ones to you.

I like Tel- Hill's suggestion of a vacation back home, alone, where you are able to be by yourself and to think clearly.

As to what to say about a trip home, in abusive relationships, the person is advised to not say too much, Saying you are going to visit your family back home is all that needs to be said. It's the actual truth at the moment.  For now, you are giving yourself a place where you feel emotionally safe and can hear your own thoughts.

BPD is a disorder where the closest people get the brunt of the angst and emotional impact.  Perhaps that's why your daughter - with such a close connection to you - has been so supercharged emotionally with you for so long and yet not quite as much with her other relatives.

Yes, it doesn't make common sense but who expects that when mental illness is involved?

As you are the only sibling to have gone NC with your mother, it might be wise to first see your siblings in another venue without your mother. It would be a good idea to get an idea if your siblings are going to side with your mother which could make the special event with your brother very uncomfortable for nearly everyone there. If you are willing to tolerate the ambiguity of now knowing what is going to happen, then by all means go.

I went NC with my sibling with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). My large extended family mostly sided with her. I did choose to go to the Celebration of Life of a close relative. I went because I really wanted to be there. I could not have anticipated how many flying monkeys would side with my sister. I was able to socialize with some of the relatives of my cousins who treated me well. Is there anybody you can be with at the event if you are treated badly by most of the family?

As far as your mother goes, do you think she will insist on interacting with you? Would it make sense just to pretend you are okay with her, only when you have to be at the same event she is at? Would you be able to keep the interaction brief or would your mother likely make a scene?