Hi maxsterling,

I would advise you to state your boundary firmly in an email - that way you have a proof. And you also get to say everyting you want without circular argument interruprions. You could also write in your email that you could talk about it at set time later. Then you could also record this conversation. Just stay calm and state your boundary firmly again.

Good luck!

Hi DesertDreamer,

Congratulations! You succeeded in having a productive conversation with her and took charge of your own mental health.

Now it's time to try stopping the racing thoughts and then weigh your options. Have you considered the possibility of having a LAT relationship?

"A relationship where both partners are in a committed, romantic partnership but choose to live in separate homes is called a Living Apart Together (LAT) relationship."

Hi Pook075,

I completely understand the part that you had to let go of the hurt, anger, sadness, etc. The part that I did not understand was how you switched from being neutral/indifferent to your ex to "loving her." Talking once every 2-3 months is understandable. What I did not understand is where the love emerged from. But maybe it's because you had many good years together and still have good memories?

Maybe that's because, unlike my ex-wives, your ex didn't do further harm after the separation. I'm assuming she didn't keep trying to rob you of your property, money, and kids?

If I share my story, you'll note it's completely different than yours. The story of both of my ex-wives is very similar, with a gap of 7 years between both divorces. The second ex actually wrote down and copied the steps of the first ex, as she wanted to gain the same advantages.

I was the one who gave up on the relationship, simply because I was not attracted to them anymore and gave up on making it work. However, they got angry that I was having my own life, so they took advantage of the fact that we were still living together, in my inherited property, to apply a scam targeting financial advantages.

Both were physically violent when feeling rejected and made false criminal accusations against me of domestic violence when, in reality, I was the one being spanked. I had some bruises and bites, but DV laws here only serve women. After separation, they kept digging up the old archived false accusations to gain further advantages and for vindictive reasons (because I had built a new family). In total I got acquitted from more than 10 false accusations (because there was no proof and their facts were incoherent), but meanwhile their goal of getting advantages in courts was accomplished, nevertheless. And I got years of unnecessary stress and lost lots of money to lawyers.

They also told endless lies in court to take financial advantage, and both do parental alienation of the kids. I met my first ex more than 10 years later, in court, and she was still angry like a dog, unprovoked. But the real reason that sustains their behavior is that they can use the kids to get financial advantage. It is not because of any negative interaction or reaction of mine. Both still live on my property, for free, despite having no rights. All of that because courts are extremely slow and unreliable. Also, because I am exhausted of it and lack the energy to keep fighting.

I'm guessing you would not love those ex-wives, would you?

If I somehow did love my ex-wives and was "always there for them," then that could be helpful, perhaps with their anger management. Yet, I don't think that would lead to any sort of fair agreement regarding pension, property, or parenting time. Because they are completely self-centered and opportunistic. Actually, shortly after the separation, I tried this. But being close and helpful was only working for their goals, not for mine. So I began to be just diplomatic, but they always wanted more contact and proximity. And that brought me jealousy troubles in my new relationship, understandably.

However, with my current wife, things are different, because she has a better character (not perfect, but not a scammer either). In case we did follow different paths, I don't think she would be my enemy at all.

Currently I'm being cold with her. I was being lovable and helpful, but the past keeps being brought up in our conversations by both of us, and it doesn't go well because both of us have resentments about the past.

If she had left when I asked for it, then we would not have had such bad memories, but instead she turned my life into hell for a long period while refusing to leave. And I don't want to let go of my resentment, because I already have this tendency to let go too easily, but now I need to make sure it never happens again. I kind of feel threatened by the possibility of forgetting the past, bringing her back, and then going through all of it again.

So I want to hold on to the memories until her distorted views are reversed by treatment (if that ever happens). Once I see that her attitude has changed, then I'll be cool with leaving the past behind and giving us (her) a new chance. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I still think we will have a success story. I have a secret, which I can't share here because it could be interpreted as medical guidance, but this is the reason why I still have hope. She will go through two specific drug treatments, which should completely change her mood and compulsions in less than two months. Then DBT will do the rest of the job, unwinding her problematic patterns.

For so many years I have been putting hope in possible ways of dealing with BPD, so I have always been overoptimistic. However, this time my hopes are grounded in BPD scientific studies and case reports.

Hi community - just writing here to sort of journal about what's going on, for my own sake.

I asked for space from my wife, and we've been able to set that up. I'm alone for three weeks and hopefully in that time, no emotional upsets will come hurtling my way. In the stillness, I've been feeling immense guilt and grief, almost to an unbearable degree. I know this period of distance hurts her, and I know there's a strong possibility that I won't come back from it - I'm sure she can sense that. I still don't really know how to see my situation clearly enough to really evaluate whether to stay or go, but I do know that my mind and body felt at their limits.

This week I've been thinking about how intimacy between us - both emotional and sexual - eroded. I always shook off the explanation that the lack of emotional safety could've contributed. Now that I'm allowing the idea of this lack of emotional safety to come through, I don't know how I could ever rebuild it, or if I even want to, given that I'm also to expect/accept that her condition might always result in out-of-the-blue emotional turmoil. I feel so guilty for simply not wanting to do the relationship, and I feel so much grief around losing this vital partnership.

Hi again,

So if you allow me to do a little more mind reading, what I see is that your husband is trying.  He's going to therapy, and when he's in a good mood, he's helpful.  But he still struggles, because it's hard to change his natural emotional and learned behavioral responses, and deep down he continues to feel incredibly insecure.  I think he knows perfectly well that you turned on the home alarm because you thought you'd be alone for the night.  But his natural impulse is to lash out, to yell at you, because he was ANNOYED and highly reactive to feeling the slightest stress or inconvenience, such as setting off a loud alarm.  Instead of taking it in stride, and maybe helping you by shutting it off and easing the kids back to sleep, he goes straight into accusation mode ("You intentionally try to keep me out"), putting you on the defensive.  Furthermore, he's thought about you having an affair often because he's insecure, and in so doing he's worn a rut in his brain, making this negative thought pop up whenever he sees you exercise a life that is the slightest bit independent of him.  He lashes out to release the negative feelings and to try to reel you into the emotional drama.  He bosses you around in a vain attempt to reclaim control.  He makes untrue accusations all the time, right where it hurts most (You're keeping the kids from me!  You're seeing another man!).  He can act like a bully to get you do things that he wants and you don't.  Right?  I'm saying this because my husband acts the exact same way sometimes--I wouldn't say he has BPD, but he shows some of the traits from time to time when he's under stress and feeling insecure.  His adult daughter who has been diagnosed with BPD shows these behaviors (albeit in the female, more passive-aggressive manifestation) all the time.  She too has gotten treatment and has shown some progress in moderating her emotional outbursts and blaming tendencies, but nevertheless they're still there, and her life and relationships, though better than they used to be, are suboptimal because of her emotional reactivity, taking everything like a personal affront.

It sounds to me that your husband relies on moving back and forth between houses, perhaps as a distraction from getting his work done.  I'm saying that because my adult BPD stepdaughter does that all the time--driving back and forth, changing up living situations, bouncing from couch to couch, this constant movement which feels like procrastination and a distraction, anything to avoid getting actual work done!  Then she'll work one day, and she'll need two or three days to recover.  When she has her own space, she feels comfortable, and yet, it allows her to retreat and be too comfortable, as well as lonely.  I suspect she spends inordinate time procrastinating (with TV and social media), anything to avoid "real life" and facing responsibilities.  When she's in her own space, far away from prying eyes, she can get away with procrastinating even more, until she falls inextricably behind.  If allowed too much space, she eventually self-destructs. . . .

I think you're trying really hard to create an environment to accommodate your husband's ongoing challenges.  You're stepping up to take care of bills to avoid arguments.  You've created a separate space where he can self-regulate.  I love the idea of regular work outs to manage his "energy."  I love the idea of a job that has a schedule and some predictibility to it.  I love the idea of your husband going into the workplace to foster some workplace interactions--anything to enforce a routine and take some of the focus away from you, as well as an opportunity for him to forge other relationships and accomplishments that would build up his identity and self-esteem.  It does sound like he has potential, if only he'd learn to embrace the notion of a predictable schedule, and if only he'd use his emotional regulation skills more consistently.  It seems to me like he knows it, but he just can't seem to follow through consistently.  He's too easily "derailed" by his emotional reactivity and moodiness.  His daily choices aren't yet where they need to be.

I'm not sure what to advise.  On the one hand, I think I'd encourage and praise him abundantly any time he follows through with healthy habits ("It looks like you had a decent workout, your committment to the treadmill in the mornings is really impressive/I'm glad you were able to work all day uninterrupted at home, it must feel great to get so much work done/It's so nice to wake up and see a smiling husband first thing in the morning/Thanks for taking out the trash, I appreciate having such a helpful husband/I'm proud of you for committing for therapy, my guess is that it must be hard, but I see you're really trying.")  It's not very difficult for me to make these sorts of comments, because they're true!  And I think that by being reassuring, it can help husbands to see that following through on seemingly mundane things is actually conducive to a happy life. 

Yet it may be that no matter how hard he tries, your husband might never learn to control his impulsive outbursts and learn to "do things he doesn't necessarily want to do" for long-term benefits.  But it does sound like he's reasonable when he's in a good mood.  Maybe you could try to talk with him when he's in one of his good moods and ask that he take some topics off the table.  You might say, Darling, I love you and choose to be with you every day.  It's very distressing for me when you accuse me of seeing other men (or threaten divorce), when you know perfectly well that I've been nothing but committed to you and our kids.  I feel hurt and insulted when you say that, and I don't like feeling that way.  I don't like having to defend myself of false accusations, and I don't want the kids to hear you say that about their mom.  It's not fair to me or to them, we don't deserve that.  Saying I'm having an affair doesn't solve any of our issues, it only creates ill feelings.  From now on, if you accuse me of an affair, I'm not going to discuss it any further.  If you say it in front of the kids, I'm going to insist that you leave (the house/room).

Anyway, when it comes to BPD, I tend to think that the direction of movement is more important than the speed of change.  Do you feel like your husband is "on track" more than "off track"?  Is he generally headed in the right direction?  Look, he's going to go off the rails sometimes, because that's the nature of BPD.  The question I have for you is, is he getting back "on track" pretty fast?  If he is, then I think you have some reason for hope, and that the therapy is working.

It's funny to get upset over that.  The overwhelming sense of entitlement they must have to throw a multi-day tantrum because their spouse deigned to talk to them calmly about something all couples have to manage and resolve is really something.

I felt like they believed they had the sole right to make demands in the relationship and have a need to talk about something, so when the non-disordered partner showed any sign of also having needs and wants, it was like you're violating their turf, and they were going to make you so miserable for doing that, you'd never want to talk again, just listen.

Good luck.

At this juncture the only advice I have is:

- you're going to spend a lot more than $5000.  Unless by some miracle your STBXW concedes everything, in which case you probably won't be spending more than $20-$25K, this is going to run you closer to $50K or more.  And that's not counting the guardianship issue.

- Stay on top of your attorney, without being annoying about it.  And if she's not responding reasonably promptly, consider changing attorneys.  And if she needs something from you, make sure you respond promptly as well.  Don't sit on things, and if something happens that seems significant or could impact your case, let your attorney know ASAP and follow up if they don't acknowledge or respond.

In my case, I learned BPDxw had a new guy living in our house a couple months after I moved out and filed for divorce, in violation of the morality clause she had insisted be put in our temporary orders!  I emailed my attorney to let him know and ask about it.  A couple months later, after we lost a motion, he made a big deal about how he should've known about this.  I found the email to him later and resent it, and he played dumb.  He was a bad attorney.  I should've changed counsel mid-divorce.  But I was complacent, didn't want to go through with that, and figured I would end up in court again sooner or later, which... is something you should really try to avoid, as I later learned the hard way.  Cook when the stove is hot.  It's a lot harder and more expensive to turn it on again, so to speak.  Live and learn. 

- Understand that at the amount you're paying, you'll likely need to be your own advocate at times & stay on top of issues.  To most family law attorneys, there's "WOW, I NEED TO KEEP THIS CLIENT HAPPY" money... e.g. they know they're going to bank well into six figures in legal fees if they keep the client happy, and then there's "ONCE THE RETAINER IS SPENT, THIS GUY IS GOING TO STRUGGLE TO KEEP UP" money.

Maybe you'll get lucky and find an attorney that is professional and diligent even for your case, but most likely you'll have to keep on them, because you're not a "whale".

I consider the question about stopping attacks as somewhat impractical since overreactions and acting out will occur, often inconsistently and unexpectedly.  It's the nature of the disorder.  It's like the amusement park game whac-a-mole where every hit only results in another popping up elsewhere.

Yes, therapy is the key to a Borderline's possibly reaching a level of recovery.  Yes, our boundaries may limit the poor behavior.  Yes, our bettered communication skills and practical tools can reduce the risk of us stumbling into friction and incidents.  But the other person is an adult and free to live his/her life his/her way.  We can't fix them, knowing that this is a dysfunction seriously worsened simply by being in the close relationship.

Perhaps we can shift to more practical matters, looking at the "us" factor.  What can self examination do for us?

I noticed that you joined us years ago and never posted until recently.  Most arrive here quite distressed rather than ambivalent.  I know I sure did.  Those were dark days indeed for me.  So... what are your needs?  Also, you have children from three failed or failing relationships.  Are their needs discerned and handled to optimize having balance in their futures?  While the littlest ones may be too young for even play therapy, do the older ones have access to counseling to enable them to have objectivity and normalcy in their daily lives?

Tagging on here....new here...gosh, I am sorry you are going through this, welcome to a "crappy club"...CC43....you are ON it....I GASPED out loud at the "terrible parent" part (I know we have crossed comments before & I still cannot grasp my pwBPD (now 25 y/o daughter) accusing me of this specifically, she just said, I was "absent" and I know that was NOT the case)...anyway....I adore this group and am grateful for the advice....on that note, it has been very heavy on my mind, this will go on FOUR solid years I have not SEEN my daughter and now she does not even RETURN texts; I HAVE learned to accept JOY (it has taken years, because I feel guilty)....best of luck manuevering "this", new here and ALL

As for his work, I completely agree that he needs a 9 to 5 job that he has to go into the office, etc. But…he refuses to do that. He lost his job about a year and a half ago, part of the reason why, on top of his attitude and confrontation with coworkers, is because he refused to work in the office, he even had a really nice office while most of the workers had cubes!  Also, he would go to the gym for hours, putting off meetings or taking them from the treadmill! I was hoping that he would get a job like we mentioned when he got another job, but instead he got a job where it was 75% remote and then he was supposed to go into the office the rest of the time, but he never goes in!  The amount of work he does depends on his mood. He is very smart and could be highly successful if he worked like he can all the time, but we all know that won’t happen!  My goal is to get him to use our house as our living space and the condo as his work space and “time out” space and to get him to work regular hours, not a couple hours here a couple hours there then work straight for a full day because he is so behind! 

Thank you CC! Your post was incredibly helpful and I believe, spot on!  I work part time at a hospital where I have worked for over 15 years. I used to work full time but went to part time when my 3rd child was about 2. I have slowly picked up PRN positions, as I can’t afford our lives on a part time job and every effort that I made to pick up extra days he would sabatoge but then tell me I need to pay for everything!  Long story short I called the police on him about a year ago. When I saw what was coming at him legally, I hired my own lawyer to help him get the least punishment. Part of what he got was mandatory DV therapy, mandatory mental health evaluation and treatment for that. In the beginning, I saw huge strides and could see that he was putting in a lot of work and he would talk a little about it. As time has progressed, his tone eases after he goes to DV therapy, but there are times that I’m not sure he is following through with his DBT therapy. We own rental property, and we agreed that it would be best if he lived in one of those while the kids and I stayed at the house until he is off probation and we can communicate better. His communication and actions change like the wind. So I ask him weekly, by text so I have something to refer back to if I question something, if he is planning on the same as last week. Every other week has been yes. This week was no, he only was there to be with the kids through a 2 week transition period (there was a fire at our kids school so they had to switch to different schools), that he would not be my “errand boy” (referring to taking the kids to school and to/from one sports practice) and when will the kids be sleeping at his place. Well last week “his place” was “our condo”! Lol! So I set up coverage for the week and told him that. He then text me and asked nicely when he could please see the kids, I think it was after his DV therapy session that this was sent. I told him that he was welcome to come over any time to see them and it would be great if he could follow our previous schedule, but I understood that that no longer worked for him. He said that he can take the kids to school but not home. I assumed that meant for the day in question. He comes to the house, is in a great mood. The next day I leave for work and he then refuses to speak to me. I hear nothing from him all day yesterday, so I set up coverage for my kids for today as I have to work. The night comes, I set our alarm the kids and I are in bed about to fall asleep and the alarm goes off. The kids start screaming, I turn the alarm off and my husband slowly makes his way upstairs to confront me as to why I put the alarm on. I tell him that I didn’t know he was coming over and then roll over to go to sleep, I’m not about to get into it. The morning arrives I have to get up at 4 am for work. When I get out of the shower my husband is already up, maybe 4:15 another sign that he is in a mood. I go say good morning, he surprisingly responded “you too” I finish getting ready, then figure I need to remind him that I already have plans set up to get our kids to school, he can take our son, but I a paying someone to take our daughter. So I apologize for the misunderstanding last night and remind him of the plans, to which he starts in with no he is taking her, blah blah blah. I said if I cancel, we still have to pay and o need him to help me pay for this stuff as it’s not just my responsibility. He starts in on I would pay of the kids were at my house, you won’t let me see my kids, etc. I said we have had this conversation before, but I would be happy to have this conversation again in a therapy session together, to which he freaks and says why would I go to therapy with someone who is sleeping with all sorts of guys behind my back, blah blah blah. I responded, that that is not true and I am not continuing this conversation, and that was sorry that he was in the mood he was in,  then I walked away. About 3 minutes later he came out to the area of the house where I was, put the tv on and looked like he was going to do his exercises. Our daughter struggles with getting ready in the morning because she can’t figure out what to wear, she usually goes through at least 5 outfits. She had picked her outfit out the night before since she was going to the babysitters. So I nicely told him that her clothes for the day were in this bag and showed him, he responded back almost yelling “what do you want” I stated it again nicely, to which he said oh. Then I left for work. I know all of this is about control because he feels out of control himself, but ugh, I am so over the affair accusations and the you don’t let me see my kids accusations!