I meant "or not have any self defense".

It was extremely difficult for me if my mother said things to me about my father- after he had passed.

It was a very difficult grief for me. I wanted to keep the memories of him as I remembered them, not through BPD mother's narrations.

This was a firm "no" from me, and I told her "I don't wish to discuss my father with you".

Her response- in victim mode -"You mean I am not allowed to speak about my husband?" as if somehow I was doing that to her?

I replied- You can speak about your husband all you want, to anyone you want, but I am not going to listen to it.

Boundaries are not about the other person and this one wasn't about her. It's that this was that it was too much for me, it was hurtful.

Thank you all for your support. It helps me to feel that I'm doing the right thing.

Whether it is ASD, C-PTSD, BPD tendencies, or some combination of traits, the practical takeaway is the same: the challenges you are experiencing are likely deeply ingrained. She is going to be who she has always been. Most people are at their worst under stress, so it is reasonable to expect that things may become more difficult as this process unfolds. You will like struggle with the stress too.

While a collaborative divorce has its benefits, it requires a high level of emotional regulation and mutual cooperation. Based on what you’ve described, that may not be realistic in your situation.

The boyfriend may, somewhat counterintuitively, help stabilize things. I would avoid doing anything that could offend or create tensions with him. Say good things about him. First, he could create clear grounds that simplify the divorce process (infidelity). Second, if she is sharing details of your interactions with him, he may act as a moderating influence. Many people—particularly those not directly involved in the history—tend to prefer resolution over prolonged conflict.

If this were my situation, I would step back from direct negotiation in a way that comes across as thoughtful and non-confrontational. For example:

.	“I don’t want our discussions to become upsetting or feel unfair to either of us, and I don’t want this process to be draining for you. For that reason, I’ve asked my attorney to work directly with you—or with your attorney if you choose to retain one—to keep things fair and moving forward.”

I would have counsel prepare a comprehensive, “ready-to-sign” divorce agreement that addresses property division and custody. Provide her with a reasonable window to engage with your attorney. If that effort does not result in progress, then proceed with formally filing for divorce and allow the legal process to move forward. She can stonewall the collaboration... she only slow down the court process... it will proceed.

Is this the some of advice you are looking for?

I agree. It was invalidating to be expected by the adults in the family to tolerate my BPD mother's behavior and I didn't expect my children to do that.

It's the adult's role to protect the children, and once the children are adults, to allow them to protect themselves.

The nuance for me was finding the difference between respectful behavior to a relative and tolerating unaccptable behavior- and finding a boundary between them.

I can understant listening to a pwBPD's concern about a family member, if it was a genuine concern but with my BPD mother it was triangulation. It's also unethical to say unfounded negative things about another person and it is not being respectful to them or the person being badmouthed to enable that.

However, when dealing with a pwBPD, we also want to avoid fueling the drama. Sometimes the statements are about getting an emotional response. One option is to "grey rock". If you respond with emotion, or defend your D, or say why your sister is wrong about your D, it is adding fuel to the drama and in a way validating it. "Grey rock" is to not react and to disengage from the conversation in a non confrontational way.

In my situation, my BPD mother would "vent" her concerns to me about my sibling. I also knew she would vent about me to other people. This was Karpman triangle dynamics. I did listen to her for a while, assuming this was being respectful but them decided this was enabling this and so stated "I don't wish to discuss my sibling's personal issues, this is between the two of you". If she persisted, I found a reason to end the conversations "Mom there's someone at the door- I'll speak to you later" or change the subject. Eventually, not being a listener decreased her doing this with me. I then did this if she began to do this with me about other family members.

With my children, I wanted them to behave respectfully to their grandmother- to respect the relationship and because it was the decent thing to do. I also let them know they can have their own boundaries as teens and adults. One adult child felt comfortable with a relationship with her by text and phone (my kids didn't live near her). Another one, she did something hurtful to, and that child decided to not have contact if she called or text. In her presence, the kids were respectful.

The "turn the other cheek" is about non- retaliation with hurtful behavior. It doesn't mean one has to allow a person to be emotionally, verbally, or physically abusive, or have any self defense, or to expect a child to do so. To me, it means that if BPD mother says or does something hurtful, I should not do something hurtful back at her, but I can have boundaries and so can my children.

Not triangulating with my mother didn't mean I didn't ever discuss family members with her but if I got the sense she was asking me to speak for them, or get them to do something she wanted, I would turn it back to her saying "I don't know, it would be better if you asked them, or I don't know, this is between you and them.

Hi there,

My standard response to conversations that turn too negative, falsely accusatory, unsolvable or going nowhere good is to say something like, "Let's talk about something else."  If they continue with their grievances, I'll say something stronger, such as, "I'm not comfortable talking about this, if you continue I'll have to hang up/leave the room," or maybe, "This is between you and my daughter, I don't want to be in the middle, I'm not discussing it further."  And if your sibling STILL doesn't take the hint, when she continues, you hang up or leave the room (Gotta go, bye / Gotta check the laundry).  I call this the Three Strikes rule.  Basically, you don't "feed" the simmering drama with your attention, let alone your input (which your disordered sister would probably use against you anyway).  I think it's completely fair to apply this rule because the conflict is making you upset, and you need to call time out, to get a break.  Ostensibly it's about you needing a break, but really your sister needs one to cool off.  How does that sound?

There's an acronym we use here when a pwBPD is getting all riled up--not to JADE, which is short for Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.  JADEing doesn't work well with BPD, because you're responding with logic to a problem that is all emotional for her.  I find a "time out" works much better.

Just my two cents.

Much respect for supporting your wife and not allowing your BPD daughter to manipulate you. One rule that can help to remember in the hardest times that having a firm moral ground can serve as a strong boundary from enabling further more abusive behaviors.

Your daughter is old enough though a minor to be able to sign for her own therapy without parental approval in some legal jurisdictions.

BPD traits include extreme levels of Blaming, Blame Shifting, Projection, self-oriented perceptions, insistence on emotional perceptions as facts and reality, etc.  Such a person's thinking is skewed away from normalcy.  It's hard to wrap our brains around that.  So you deal with "what is".

One factor you need to keep in mind is that some who might help could be oriented toward repairing or patching up the relationship.  You've been with her some three decades and she hasn't made progress toward recovery.  With her gaining sudden recovery being so unlikely, unwinding the marriage makes sense.


We don't know how the details of court systems work there but typically divorce is where either spouse can initiate the process and the court will act more or less as a slow and somewhat reluctant referee.  The big difference is that for once it doesn't matter how much your spouse insists on control... court is The Real Authority.

We speak here of Boundaries, but with a twist.  Since people with BPD traits (pwBPD) are known to resist boundaries, we therefore can choose to make our own boundaries, not for the other but for us, and how we respond to poor behavior.  That perspective is not intuitive but it works more or less.  Court's version of boundaries are named "orders".


Having someone as a counselor or therapist can undoubtedly be a huge resource and support.  Your children too would benefit as well.  Have you encouraged that?  Even if your spouse might refuse to allow your minor daughter to start counseling, court may agree to step in and order therapy as one of the steps in divorce.  As my lawyer told me many years ago, "Courts love counseling."

That basically describes the living arrangements and relationship that my eldest stepdaughter had with her bio parents, when she was in her late teens and early 20s.  She tended to spend more time with her dad and me at our house, which is stable and welcoming, a reliable "base camp" with a stocked fridge.  And then she'd have shorter visits with her mom, whom I don't know very well but I gather is a high-conflict, chaotic personality (I saw a picture of the inside of her home once and noted how chaotic it was).  Yet she's probably also fun--I've heard stories of loud parties, for example.  Her dad NEVER disparages his ex-wife in front of his kids and does not get in the way of them visiting with their bio mom.  In fact, for years, he facilitated visits, by driving the kids between residences when they weren't old enough to drive, typically multiple times per week.

Having said that, my younger BPD stepdaughter hasn't spoken to her bio mom for years now.  I can't be sure how much of that relates to her own BPD, her mom's high-conflict nature, or both.  The two of them are probably too volatile for each other to have a stable relationship right now.  It's sad, but it is what it is.

That's just a long-winded way of saying I agree with Notwendy's points.

Thank you for these thoughtful responses.  They are thought-provoking for me.

I should clarify that I'm the mother here -- no wife involved, only a husband who also gets blamed for a lot but luckily is super thick-skinned.  My daughter knows about my sister's condition and has put up with a lot from her because of it.  She finally decided that she was going to speak up about some things that really upset her.  I turn the other cheek all the time, but it doesn't seem to me to be fair to tell my daughter that she needs to choose to do the same. 

And I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of listening to my sister bad mouth my daughter --- also seems like a slippery slope to getting pulled in.

But perhaps there are options I'm missing....