MC yesterday suggested that we are not emotionally ready to deal with R/S issues until we individually deal with our own personal traumas first.  This isn’t the first MC to mention this.  While it is said to the both of us, it’s pretty clear that this is directed at W.  Yesterday this happened after W went on a completely irrational blame fest that lasted 20 minutes.  To me, this is textbook BPD - w is feeling confined by marriage, feels shame over her urges, projects into me as an attempt to reduce shame.

Today W is upset at MC for suggesting we focus more on individual therapy.  I am puzzled by this, because just the night before she was telling me that she did not feel emotionally stable enough for any relationship.  I think she is feeling singled out by the MC, or maybe it is okay for her to have those thoughts but not for a T to tell her that.  But she totally mossed the point here.  W thinks I am “controlling her” like some kind of slave because I won’t let her date.  It’s like she thinks I am her father or something.  MC was trying to say she’s not mentally healthy enough to work on R/S issues, and that is true, whether it be a r/s with me or with someone else she wants to have a r/s with.  W pursuing new r/s  would be re-traumatizing herself with the same old pattern.

I feel like I am dealing with complete chaos right now - and there is no way to work with that constructively

Hi lisaea1523 ,

I think you are doing the right thing. Yet, you might have to step towards the request of the NC order so that he steps towards leaving.

In the case of my wife, she only left at the last minute. I had gotten some boxes and was ready to pack my stuff and leave over that weekend, and then finally agreed to leave. She agreed because I was approaching her in a lovely way, and she understood that the alternative (that everyone left the house) was much worse. Because she would then have to leave without support and possibly be forced by police (called by the landlord). So she said by that weekend she would leave instead of me.

Then, as she truly agreed to leave, things went smoothly until the day she left. Because I switched to being as warm as possible with her, and I even cuddled with her at night (I had not been doing this for some time). I did that because I wanted her to leave feeling safe and not abandoned. I'm ok if we don't work out, but I don't want her to have a breakdown as it happened in the past.

Before she left, I had mentioned the possibility of her coming back for a weekend. She immediately reacted badly to that when she heard it, but now that we are living apart, she actually asks for that. For two weeks I refused our weekend together because she was still being aggressive with me by text, but then I managed to make her feel loved and that I care for her, so she cooled off and started treating me well, so I finally accepted her coming here for a weekend. She is sleeping right now in our bed (which is now MY bed). She will leave tomorrow, and hopefully this distancing will give her the motivation she needs to treat herself.

I have some questions about the comment below:


The question is, do you still want this relationship to work? Do you love him? If you do, then you can use that to make things work easier. This is a sentence from Pook075 that helped me:

"They just want to feel loved and supported in every interaction. They want to feel like they matter and they're seen."

If you feel capable of doing that, it will help, even though stepping towards the NC order might be indispensable (or whatever order is needed for him to move out).

My dad, divorced from my dBPD mom decades ago, and months later she married a dNPD/bipolar man—both untreated.
He died two weeks ago from dementia. I was there with him as his support and medical advocate in the hospital and days later in hospice every day until he passed. It was intense, and I have a community that has shown up for me, and I am so grateful.

Months ago, my dad was hospitalized and my dBPD adult sister (40; some treatment, but currently stopped and unmedicated) and I were each flying in to help. She flew into town but never showed up, ghosted us, said she never wanted to be involved and was manipulated into it (sigh) and then had a series of tirades aimed at my tender hearted dBipolar adult brother (42), also untreated. My mom joined in as well, attacking him for being a failure, for helping my dad too much and “making her look bad”, among other things. I’ve been no contact with my mom for years, and she’s blocked, but she periodically calls from random other numbers—more so to my brother than me. He cried to me, where I reinforced boundaries, not wanting to be involved, and focus on my dad.

Now that my dad died, my sister and mom are at it again, deciding all kinds of things that aren’t true—that I excluded her from his care, that I’m hiding his (non-existent) money, etc. I know this bc she’s called the nursing home and funeral home multiple times to yell this at people, whereupon they call me. There’s no burial, and the ashes have been split among the kids and delivered, with a little bit of drama from my sister (I want the ashes here! No there! No, I don’t want them! She’s keeping them from me! Ok, deliver them to me please—all voicemails to the funeral home over 3 days). My mom also showed up at the funeral home unnanounced to bring treats (?!?!?) to this man she’s never met, and reiterate that my father was and I am awful, but not to help with the ashes, of course. I didn’t ever engage with them throughout it all.

My brother tho has. He keeps getting attacked by them, destabilized by it all, and then reaches back out to them. Block/unblock. Argue. Call. Cry. Fall apart. Repeat. I’ve asked him to not share any of his contact with them to me. Then he does while in crisis, caused by taking to them. It’s his choice to talk to them, and his choices not get therapy, and I am trying to respect that, but he isn’t respecting my boundary to not hear it. I reinforced this yesterday, he agreed, and 4 hours later he texted to say mom texted him a long text about me, do I wanna hear it. I say no, boundary. He tells me anyway. I say I am trying grieve, stop. He says he gets it, but I know he will break the boundary again.

I know I can step away from him. I can feel myself already starting to. I am sad bc I think that’s the only thing I can do right now to protect my peace. And honestly, I may have to let him go. Anything else I can do?

BPD affects all relationships, and it affects the most intimate ones the most. Spouses and children tend to be the closest ones. Grandchildren are a step away from this closeness, and so your ex may be more attentive to them.

In this context, it would be easier for a pwBPD to maintain a more superficial relationship with people they are less close to. However, if that relationship gets closer, there may be more issues. Eventually the pwBPD may discard the relationship or the other person chooses to not continue it.

The "monkey branching" would fit this concept. You were the spouse, the other man is is a new person, she knew less about him, and so could "paint him white". Now that their relationship is progressing, the "white paint" seems to be chipping.

I would also feel empathy for the new man's children. It would be up to him to protect them.

I think one of the best things you did for your children was to become clean and sober. You've given them a much healthier father and role model by taking care of yourself.

 

Strategies and legal decisions are yours.  Sharing or revealing them to a stbEx in a futile effort to "soften the blow" would enable the other to sabotage or obstruct your goals.  It will already be hard enough for the other not to sense your changed disposition and try to gain the upper hand.

Well that sounds familiar (don’t they all)
My ex is undiagnosed but I strongly suspect bpd. If not she is just toxic and from what you have described it is exactly the same. I can certainly relate to the lying and being judgemental.
At the end of the day it doesn’t really matter if it’s diagnosed or not, toxic behaviour is toxic behaviour and do you want that in your life?

My situation is a little different, married with kids and in the relationship for nearly 30 years so contrary to what I just wrote if my ex was diagnosed it would give me some relief to know the behaviour was fuelled by a disorder, but if the relationship only lasted a month I’d just be happy that I’d recognised the toxic behaviour early, bpd or not.

Based on my experience with pwBPD and NPD, my general takeaway is that they do not play fair.  They have all sorts of expectations and rules for others which don't apply to themselves.  So the example you give of trying to have an important discussion about finances, when your wife is stonewalling/delaying/avoiding/fighting back--that's a very typical response.  Indeed it's ironic that if you did the same to her, she'd punish you severely and accuse you of all sorts of vile things.  My guess is that she doesn't want things to change, and so she's avoiding the topic altogether in the hopes that you relent.  Like Notwendy writes, expecting a pwBPD to behave rationally about an emotionally charged topic is basically impossible.  And my corrollary is that expecting a pwBPD to treat you well because you treat them well won't work.  You could give your wife a million dollars with the stipulation that she end all arguments, and the next day she'd "forget" the deal and demand something more of you.  She generally won't honor agreements, at least not for long, because her unending needs override her.

I'd say, instead of hoping for cooperation, plan for no cooperation and act accordingly.  You need to put yourself and your kids first in my opinion.  That doesn't mean you should be mean, but do what's right for you in the long run.  Indeed I think you're on the right track about getting your finances in order, protecting your important belongings, taking care of your kids, setting up cameras and even putting a lock on the door if that's what it takes.  The way to be careful is to assume that anything you do, say or write/text could be reviewed by a judge or court.  So don't do anything that would put you in a bad light, including disparaging your wife in front of the kids.  

I'd say, don't feel guilty about keeping your preparations to yourself, because you know perfectly well that if your wife found out she'd react badly.  Your safety and that of your kids should be prioritized over full transparency.

It seems you are at the point of no turning back with your wife. No longer are you able to pretend that the marriage is going to work out. When we just can't do it anymore with the disordered person/people in our life, we naturally start to set boundaries that are going to get a lot of pushback. It is so hard to maintain that balance of what is just going to come out because you can't do it anymore which gives your wife a heads up that something has changed in your relationship, and she will definitely act out to the changes.
When I hired a lawyer to deal with some legal issues with my sister with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), I refused to have any direct contact with her, despite her continuously sending me letters through her lawyer. You are living with your wife, so you do have direct contact with her. It might make sense to tell her the new boundaries and then walk away without staying involved in her meltdowns, letting her know she is in charge of her dysregulated emotions. Clearly there is no point in letting her know about the divorce proceedings until you have your ducks in a row, your finances organized, and are in agreement with your lawyer on how and when to proceed.
Good job in finding a lawyer who understands high conflict divorces! Your lawyer is probably going to advise you to reveal as little as possible to your wife. My lawyer did not share nearly anything with my sister's lawyer whereas her lawyer who came from a top law firm, seemed to think that intimidating me was the way to go and it did not work. I was way to aware as you are, that there is no such thing as any kind of peaceful reasonable negotiations with an extremely disordered person.

Maybe you are right. However she monkey branched and was in the relationship with her boyfriend straight after our breakup. Whether empty nest syndrome played a part, as she likes to mother children. She would look after other people’s children as well as our own quite often when they were growing up and even wanted to adopt a friends child that was being abused. And now the relationship she is in her partner has a son the same age as our youngest but has autism, and a younger child that was 14 years old when she started that relationship (the father would leave the 14 year old at home alone over night while he stayed at my ex’s house) so I guess the amount of children can be included in the enough not being enough too.

I had a little chat with my son last night, as I’ve mentioned in my other thread the problems he had the other week and has gone away this morning for a few days abroad with his mum.

The first Christmas we had split up, she asked my son if he wanted her to wrap the Christmas presents he had bought. He told her he wanted her to, but she completely ignored them but wrapped all his kids presents up instead, which kind of relates to your last comment. I did read one of your posts recently about your mother befriending a girl a similar age to you and the way that made you feel which I guess is quite similar.

So she was supposed to go away with her boyfriend but he apparently couldn’t go so she asked our son instead. What he did say last night was that he wasn’t sure they are getting on too well and she doesn’t seem happy. She has told me in the past that his youngest son is a little [very strong expletive] and told her sister fairly recently that both his kids do her f’ing head in.
However, my son gave his youngest son a lift recently and said he seems very downbeat but a good kid. He has given up playing sports and doesn’t want to do anything any more. I asked him how he felt when he knew my ex and I were suffering from drug addiction, and he felt the same way, depressed and neglected but since splitting up with my wife we have a far better relationship, I am living a far healthier life and he is much better off living with me instead of his mother.

My fear is I am certain they are both addicted still and it is now starting to have a detrimental effect on his kids. It is them I feel most sorry for as I’m afraid they are pawns in her, or their mental illness.

If it helps, I found that logical discussions with my mother about money weren't effective. What drove her behavior was some kind of emotional need of hers. It seemed similar to an addiction- and all addictions are about seeking relief of emotional distress. She perceived proposed restrictions to her spending as somehow "hurting her", it was like trying to take alcohol or drugs away from an addict. Her needs were like a craving for her.

I mention this because, if logical discussions about finances with your wife haven't been effective so far, they probably won't be. Taking action to protect your finances is likely to be more effective than trying to reason with her.