Well, I suspect you need to be a little less hard on yourself.  I love to spend time alone!  I enjoy reading, sewing, doing puzzles, studying languages . . . and I think that's completely OK.  But I also enjoy the outdoors, so in summer I go to the beach and car shows, in the fall I go hiking, and in winter I go skiing, even if it's just cross-country skiing in my yard and neighborhood.  If the weather isn't great, I go to the gym instead, where there are tons of other people just like me, trying to get some exercise.

Look, my mom is a widow, and while she spends a lot of time with grandchildren, she also needs a break from them.  Who are her friends?  Well, some are from church, some are from a volunteer organization, and some are from a quilting club.  The quilters make blocks together, and they also go to quilt shows, some which are weekend-long trips.  In addition, she is a regular patron of the local arts, and she goes to several shows and/or concerts every year; I'm pretty sure she gets season tickets.  Sometimes she'll have an extra ticket, which gives her the opportunity to bring along a friend.  She also belongs to a book club, but frankly she says it's too much for her right now, as she doesn't like the pressure of having to read some books she doesn't like.  I told her, that's OK, maybe take a break from the book club this year, because your schedule feels overwhelming right now.

I guess my point is, once you start doing something you enjoy (say, seeing live theater or jazz), when someone asks, How was your week? (or, Do you have any fun plans coming up?), well you go ahead and mention the theater or jazz experience.  Your enthusiasm will shine through, and maybe your acquaintance will say, Hey, I love jazz too, have you ever been to the club in town?  Would you like to check it out sometime?  And there you probably have a new friend, whose focus isn't endless trauma.

Hi there,

I'm really sorry about the escalations your daughter is exhibiting.  My read is that she's increasingly unhinged because she has exhausted all her options.  She might be close to hitting bottom, which would probably explain the "extintion burst," an amping up of behaviors that used to work in her favor, in terms of extracting favors and concessions.  Alas, she probably has to hit bottom before she admits she needs to make some changes and get some professional help.

Much of what you wrote I could have written about my own adult BPD stepdaughter, including bouncing between parental homes as a teen (to whichever parent she hated less), as well as her intelligence and other natural assets.  I wouldn't say my stepdaughter is schizo, but when she was self-medicating with pot daily, she had bouts of paranoia, delusional thinking and dissociative incidents.  In my humble opinion, that was because of the pot.  My other opinion is that heavy pot use, combined with several "lost" years, has noticeably set her back--both emotionally and intellectually.  Since she spent so many years in a dysfunctional funk, she basically missed out on practicing "adulting," when support tends to be higher and the stakes are lower (think internships, college-related activities, etc.).  So now that she's in her late 20s, she's feeling "incompetent" in some ways, and clueless in others, although I think she'll catch up eventually.  For example, recently she tried to sign a lease on her own, and she was devastated to learn that she was rejected, because she had no reliable income.  I think she thought that since she was an adult, she could sign any lease she wanted.  Unfortunately, it seems she always has to learn things "the hard way," with the associated setbacks, which, as you know, can be extremely destabilizing for someone who lacks perspective and mental toughness.

Anyway, your house rules are practically identical to mine.  There was a time when my stepdaughter's only focus in our household was to get therapy and follow doctors' orders, whatever they were at the time.  Then, once she was stabilized and older, the expectation was that she be engaged "full time" through some combination of school, work, training or therapy while living with us for free.  That, and be respectful and pick up after herself.  We didn't expect rent, help with chores or any meaningful contribution to the household.  Basically she had to be committed to working on herself.  She was free to leave if she didn't like the house rules.

Sometimes my stepdaughter would say, "I want to move to New York / Paris / London," and I'd say, "I can see why you'd like that."  Of course, she'd get upset (because her expectation was for us to find and pay for an apartment for her), but I'd stand my ground:  "If you want to go to New York / Paris / London, I'm not stopping you, I can't wait to visit."  Anyway, my point is, parental over-functioning and over-advising needs to stop at some point.  I think that age 26 is about that point.  My unspoken rule right now is to provide advice to my stepdaughter only if she asks for it.  My other unspoken rule is that if she wants something, she has to be the one to make it happen (for the most part), not me, her dad or our savings.  That includes getting therapy by the way.  And if she's committed involuntarily, then she needs to deal with it.  If you step in and "rescue" her, what she learns is that everything is both YOUR responsibility and YOUR fault.

As for false accusations, my stepdaughter has made them too.  A couple of times, she took the accusations too far, and she was challenged:  "That's a lie and you know it."  She changed tack and made allegations that were less specific, to keep us guessing.  However, even if the facts were wildly distorted by her telling of past events, we can't argue with her that she FEELS like her life is an endless series of traumas.  I've just learned to take everything she says with a grain of salt.  And yes, she has wished us dead, believing we deserve to be punished for abusing her.  However, I felt these were just fantasies in the heat of a raging outburst, but that she never really intended to hurt us physically.

As for your daughter's threats of violence, I think you take them seriously if you are frightened.  As in, if your daughter is in your home and pulls a knife on you, then you have to call 911.  If she's depressed and thinking she'd be better off dead, but not actively threatening suicide, you might ask her, "Do you want me to call 911 for you?"  That way, she decides, and if she tells you not to call 911, then you might rest a little easier that she's not actively suicidal in the moment.  And in the process, you've reminded her that help is a phone call away.

It sounds to me like you have strong boundaries in place, and that is commendable.  I also think it's the only way that your stepdaughter will eventually decide to get the help she desperately needs--the sooner the better in my opinion.  Look, we've been mostly estranged from my stepdaughter for a year now, though she'll temporarily break the estrangement to ask for financial, logistical or administrative help.  Basically we asked her to leave our home last year, because she wasn't working on herself.  I bet she feels mistreated, but the upshot is that once she left, she was forced to work on herself.  She did some house-sitting before finding a stable living situation, and then she got a couple of part-time jobs which eventually led to her very first, full-time "career" situation.  Frankly I'm proud of her for that, and I think that getting kicked out was best for everyone actually.

Anyway, my stepdaughter was able to turn her life around after she hit bottom (twice) and finally committed to therapy.  It happened when she was struggling on her own, not when she was acting like she was on "vacation" in our home while doing whatever she wanted.  It was when SHE was the one to take an Uber to the hospital, not when her dad drove her (or in her words, when he "forced" her to go to the hospital).  The good news is that though she still struggles quite a bit, her life looks much, much healthier and functional now than it once did.  And she turned her life around pretty quickly, in the span of about a year and a half.  We still worry about her, almost daily, but it's not a life-and-death kind of worry.

Hope that perspective helps a little.

It is very clear from what you have shared that your stepdaughter is not safe for either you or your husband to be around. From the threats your stepdaughter has made, its sounds like she has both suicidal and homicidal tendencies. Though very few people with severe mental illness are a danger to others, those with suicidal and homicidal  tendencies are indeed very dangerous, especially to close relatives. Do get some professional advice on how best to protect you and your husband.

The children are 9. 

How old are your children?

I don't think you can bet on BPD behavior on Kalshi yet, but if you could we would all be millionaires. 

BPDw told me early this year that she wanted to date women.  Or rather it started as she wanting an open relationship.  Not my thing, but I spent time contemplating the least stressful path out, as my stress level was already maxed.  Eventually I decided that if she latched on to someone else it would give me a little peace for awhile.  Also, we had not had a romantic relationship for years and I had little desire to have one at the time (things don't work romantically when you are under constant stress), so it's not like I was giving up much.

She obsessed over the idea of being with a woman and quickly found someone to latch on to.  It gave me some peace and quiet in my house.  Quickly she decided she needed her own place in order for this new relationship to blossom.  I suddenly was painted all the way black (couldn't stand even being around me), but I saw that as a blessing in disguise.

She found a new place down the street from her new partner and moved out before finding a job or a way to support it. She quickly found a job, but it did not start for a few months after she moved out.  I walked the line between helping/enabling and letting her figure stuff out, but that was complicated because I need to make sure the kids are also taken care of.  My limit to helping her went as far as making sure she had the basics to at least take care of the kids.  My motivation to help was to ensure the greatest chance for success in her new place.  My motivation to let her figure stuff out was also to ensure the greatest chance for success, but also to give me peace.  We agreed on an informal arrangement with the kids, which she could never adhere to, so I wound up with the kids most of the time, and when she had the kids I could never fully trust that they were being taken care of - mainly because she would send me messages about not knowing what to feed the kids, not having food in her house, telling me she feels she is not capable, etc.

Quickly after moving out her new r/s fell apart in typical BPD fashion.  BPDw was obsessive, and new GF got a little freaked out.  That turned into a stalking situation, and new GF basically called her out as abusive and then deleted BPDw's number.  BPDw still kept trying to contact her for a few months.  End result was lots of drama for me and for the kids. 

After that, BPDw had a brief affair with a woman at her apartment building, who BPDw quickly painted black.  This was more drama, because the woman lived at her complex, and was the mom of kids that our kids liked to play with.  I don't know how pwBPD are so good at stepping in poop. 

Following that affair, it was the bi-weekly desire for BPD to move out and the 3am text messages to me about how she is so lonely she wants to die.  At this point she was barely capable of taking care of herself, and definitely not the kids. 

She was living a few miles away, but I needed to ensure daily that the kids were taken care of, such as having something to eat and clean clothes to wear.  W was basically feeling hopeless (and possibly suicidal) and wanting to move out.  I wasn't in a position to tell her she could not move back to the house without some legal maneuvering, and timing of such maneuvering felt a cruel given her potentially suicidal state.  The main issue was that I did not want to pursue divorce or legal separation until she started her new job as I did not want to leave her without health care options. 

Any psychiatric help would have to be initiated by her, so my hands were tied there. 

My hope was that her landlord would tell her she could not break her lease without substantial penalty, and I did what I could to discourage her from moving back to the house and encourage her to look for another place instead.  Unfortunately, her landlord was sick of her and was more than happy to let her move out ASAP (actually told her to move out at one point).  The reality is, without a partner she had no desire to have her own place.  Seeing how she acted towards other partners and her lack of the most basic self care (such as eating) when she was alone was a clear indicator that her 20 years as an adult before me was pretty much the same dependence upon others.  Very clear that she is not capable of taking care of herself even on a very basic dysfunctional level, and I doubt at age 50 she can gain enough emotional calmness to do so.  I've known other dysfunctional people before who can at least keep some kind of job and make decisions about eating or go to the grocery store or McDonalds when they are hungry.  W was not even capable of doing that.

While this was going on, the same job scenario was playing out.  Already hating her job after 2 weeks.  Hating her co workers, hating the students, hating the administration, threatening to quit nearly every day.  The things she described as happening did sound like an unpleasant work environment, but she has said nearly the same about every job she has had since I have known her.  The reality here is that if you wake up expecting to have a crappy day, you are going to have a crappy day.  Others are feeding off of her negative attitude, and it's guaranteed she is seeing things way worse than they are.  What she is complaining about how others treat her at her job is exactly the way she treats others.  She finds it an impossible work environment because students are cursing at her and saying disrespectful things yet can't figure out that is why so many of her family and friends quit talking to her.

So here are things now:  She moved back to the house a month ago.  Her landlord let her leave without penalty. We moved the kids to the same room, and she and I have separate rooms.  She has gone back to 12-step programs and has found a new therapist who is more than just a talk therapist.   She also quit her job today. 

Having separate rooms helps me.  Her being involved in 12-step programs also helps me, as it gives her another outlet.  But the experience the last few months has also made me realize that I am no longer going to hold out hope for "working on my marriage".  That is impossible.  I am going to do what I feel is best for the kids and for me without being disrespectful to her.  If she decided to move out again, I won't discourage her.  I feel no emotional attachment.  And I am going to do what is good for me, even if that is not what she wants me to do.  Again, the emotional attachment is gone.  There is little sense for trying to compromise anymore except when it comes to issues regarding childcare.  Should she move out again, I will be prepared to take legal action.  That's the lesson here - I can't expect her to ever be rational or emotionally calm enough to deal with in the same way I would deal with most everyone else in my life.  Being a "nice guy" doesn't work. 

But - things are working somewhat better - for now. 

 

CC43,
I like both: your suggestions about what to say to end an uncomfortable conversation and how to make friends. I will use those. I am comfortable saying that I am not comfortable discussing something. I like the idea of doing activities I enjoy. Right now, I am far too isolated and spend too much time alone, which makes me a more likely target for disordered people.

Hi again,

One of my strategies is to say, "This topic is stressing me out; let's talk about something else, OK?"  That's pretty easy to say, because it's true!  If she says, "Yes, but . . . " and ignores my request, I'll say something stronger, like, "I'm not comfortable discussing this anymore; if we continue, I'll have to call it a day."  And if she continues, I extricate myself as politely as possible:  "See you later, bye," which is easiest on a phone call.  I call this the "three strikes rule," whereby she CHOOSES whether or not she strikes out.  If she wants to keep the conversation going, eventually she learns to change tack after the first or second warning.  I just try to make the warning about my own discomfort, rather than blaming her.

As for making friends, I think the key is to do stuff you like, and often.  I mean, if you say to yourself, "I want to go on a hike," but you wait to try to find a friend to go with you, chances are you won't go on a hike for a long time.  But if you go on a hike, chances are that like-minded people will find you and join you eventually, especially if you hike locally and often.  Do you remember how it was relatively easy to make friends in grade school?  I think that's because you were in an environment with a peer group on a regular basis.  In adulthood, it's harder to replicate that environment exactly, but it can be found:  at a church, club, gym, park, coffeehouse, supermarket, neighborhood area, volunteer organization, etc.

By the way, the sibling I mentioned previously is going through a divorce and suddenly found himself without a friend group, because the overwhelming majority of his former friends had ties to his ex.  At first, he was depressed and lonely, which was to be expected.  But with the divorce came a new freedom to do all sorts of things that he had long neglected, basically because his ex didn't like anything he liked.  One time, when he was feeling especially down, I said, "Brother, just humor me for a minute.  Don't think too hard, but tell me one of your favorite memories, whatever pops into your head."  He named something, and I said, "Great, how about another one?"  He complied, and I repeated, "Great, how about another one?"  And so on, for around a dozen happy memories.  Then I reflected and said to him, "Well, it seems to me that most of your happy memories involve something sporty or adventurous, typically outdoors, and something intimate, with just one or two close friends.  (I didn't say it at the time, but none of the happy memories involved his wife, sadly.)  It seems to me that to feel happy again, you should focus on those sorts of activities.  Why don't you schedule something soon?  The good news is he did just that.  He reached out to a couple of old buddies.  And the more he started with the activities, the more he met like-minded people.  He doesn't need a ton of friends, just a handful of good ones.  Soon enough, he made new friends and got himself invited to all sorts of cool activities.

Notwendy and CC43,
Your feedback is very helpful and heartwarming. Thank you. We have had similar experiences in recognizing we are dealing with a disordered person and distanced ourselves if necessary and/or accepted that we have been cut off. What bothers me the most is we are more likely to be targeted by disordered people because of other previous disordered close relationships. With time, we have gotten better at seeing the red flags sooner.

I know that I listen to a person's problems way past what is healthy for either me or that person. Very few people except for her personal therapist if she had one would have listened to this woman for such a long time. There are several people I no longer interact with because of the one sided nature of our relationships: I listened to their monologues while there was little or no reciprocity, which is what I used to do with my mother with BPD. Perhaps you can give me some advice on how to end the one sided relationships sooner.

On my recent birthday, I got a text wishing me Happy Birthday from my disordered neighbor, the one I no longer speak to whom I described in a previous thread. The other neighbors cut her off a long time ago. I think this neighbor is trying to reconnect because I gave her the undivided attention that she craves. It really turned my stomach when I received her birthday card. She will never accept that I am a separate person from her, worthy of the kind of respect and kindness I showed her.

For years, I was uncomfortable making friends with people who did not share their problems with me. That has changed. I now have a few close good friends. I am now comfortable with safe people with healthy boundaries. For several years, I have been ending more quickly relationships that are one sided conversations in which I give my undivided attention to a disordered person. Still a work in progress.

I recently bought a book on how to make friends. I am lonely and need to learn more about how to make and keep friends.I do believe that it is the loneliness that makes me more likely to spend my time listening to the monologues of disordered people.  Most of my friends have their own families, and their priorities are to spend more time with their children and grandchildren. I do not have children.

My 26 year old step-daughter has BPD and possible schizoaffective disorder. We've been limited contact for several years and no contact for the past 2 years. She burned her family and friend bridges years ago. During her teen years, she bounced between her mother's and our house, depending on with whom she was least angry. The last time we spoke, she was desperate for a place to live because no one else would let her live with them. We told her that she could only live with us if we had a peaceful house, she agreed to not abuse drugs and alcohol while living with us, and she comply with her mental health treatment plan. After living with us for 3 months, we would expect her to add moving forward with engaging in adult responsibilities by doing 40 hours a week of self-supporting activities such as working on her college degree, working, volunteer work, and/or helping around the house. She told us that she wasn't going to "kiss your @sses for a place to live." We told her that was her choice.

We found her a living shelter for people with mental health challenges. They asked her to leave after 2 weeks because she was causing problems with the other residents. She lived in her car for a few weeks and then we were able to get her into another shelter. We don't really know what happened there but she was there for about a year. Then she ended up at her mother's parents' house, even though in the past she didn't like them. Living with them, she's been in and out of inpatient treatment. They have gotten to the point where they won't allow her to live with them either. We're not sure of what happened but she has a history of toxic behavior including hours daily of exploding at people if they will listen, and serious false accusations.

She's really intelligent, so in the past, when she went into treatment, when she started to improve a bit, she became really good at masking her challenges. The past few times have been different and the hospital took her to court and got her a 1 year commitment to a state psychiatric facility. Again, we don't know much about what's happening other than she doesn't want to go, she's been refusing meds, and she's on a behavior plan. She has gotten into contact with my husband through texts and calls. She desperately wants us to hire a lawyer for her so that she doesn't get committed. My husband told her no and that he believes that she needs the help. The third time she called about this and he said no again, she threatened to kill him and stomp all over his dead body. When he didn't respond in rage, she started to accuse him of r@ping her all of her life as a threat. She has made these types of accusations towards him, her brothers, me, and several boyfriends in the past, telling anyone who will listen. She has also told her aunt that everyone in her life has abused her.

I know that she's feeling ashamed, scared, desperate, and feeling deeply out of control. I know that her mental illness is deeply painful for her. I love her but I don't like her right now and I'm afraid of her. I hate that she's going to have to spend time in a state hospital. I'm pretty sure that she's lashing out because she feels trapped by the involuntary commitment, especially considering that no one will help her in challenging it.

My husband and I have both been documenting conversations with her. While she doesn't call me, I listen in on the calls as a witness. After the last accusation and threat, my husband hung up and won't return calls or texts. What else can we do to protect ourselves? How can (should) we know if she's safe to be around? The false accusations were one thing, but threats of harming us are different.