CC43 -

That sounds pretty bad. BPDw is not quite at that level - but at times not that far off.

When I say she is not capable of taking care of herself - I mean that most people have some kind of initiative for existence and can get their basic needs met.  W does not have this.  W will claim to not eat all day, then come to me freaking out at 8pm because she is hungry.  I just have never met anyone else who won't find a way to get food when hungry.  But W will say "I couldn't decide what to eat" or "I have no food in my house".  Yes, if I wasn't there, she may eventually order doordash.  But that's quite alarming to hear when I am depending on her to take care of the kids.   She will sometimes be motivated to feed the kids - but most of the time it is very basic.  Again, I have never met anyone else like this.  When she was living apart, the kids often fed themselves.  They are 9.  And I would go to her place and she would tell me she hadn't done anything all day because she was depressed.  But it was more than just depression - it was paranoia, psychosis, and obsessive behaviors that got in her way. 

I enjoy feeding my kids.  I enjoy deciding what to eat.  I enjoy preparing food.  I suspect most people do.  She doesn't.  Since I have known her, I have never, ever been to a restaurant with her when she did not order until she heard what everyone else ordered first.  Every single day she has to ask me what I want to do about dinner.  Never once, in 14 years, have I heard her say "I want to eat this for dinner" or "I want to eat at this restaurant" and find a way to make it happen.  She always wants someone to make that decision for her, and if there is nobody else to do it, she likely won't eat, or eat junk food or a snack.

All of her interests involve someone else.  She does not do anything on her own just for fun.  Again, this feels like an impossible way to live.  Everyone else I know has something they enjoy doing alone.  Going for a walk.  Going to the gym.  A hobby.  Going shopping.  If I and the kids are doing other things, she will say "I don't know what to do with myself"and try and coerce some kind of interaction through guilt tripping or controlling behaviors (she will find a way to complain about someone else).

When she decided she wanted to be involved romantically with a woman, immediately the focus was first on finding a woman.  Not about moving out, finding a job, being independent, or separating our bedroom.  Instead it was a desire for an "open relationship" until she found a female partner, and then it was all about moving out to be with this partner and suddenly she no longer wanted an "open relationship". 

W collects permanent federal disability and was given medicare since she was in her late 20s.  That is not easy to get.  That means at that time someone determined she was unlikely to ever have the ability to meet her basic needs through working and managing her health.  At this point, I agree. 

So how did I miss this before we got married?  Well, she hid it, and I didn't have enough life experience to understand that people like her existed.  She came across as someone who was open about having a troubled youth, got help for her mental illness, then got a graduate degree and had a career.  She had traveled overseas, seemingly by herself, and made it sound like she was a very independent woman who had a few bad breaks.  What I didn't understand is that her career was job after job that she complained about, that her overseas travels were almost always in pursuit of some kind of romantic fling, and her "depression and anxiety" had a psychosis component to it. 

Hi there,

I think I remember the gist of your story, given the unusual nature of it:  you being OK with your wife moving out to have a same-sex affair, because it meant that you got some peace in your own home.  I think I also remember that your wife couldn't manage to feed herself(!).  The irony is not lost upon me, that you're dealing with a woman who attempted to work as a teacher of children, when she can't even figure out how to feed herself independently.  If she was working in an elementary school situation, it's no wonder that she didn't last very long, because job satisfaction is lower than ever in elementary schools these days.  The kids are too needy, the teaching requirements are too strenuous, and there's not enough support to teachers in a world where discipline measures have been watered down to nothing.  I guess my reflection is that this wouldn't be an ideal job set-up for her.

Anyway, I'm replying because my extended family went through a similar situation.  My uNPD brother-in-law separated from his wife and wanted to co-parent three young children.  However, he wasn't capable of caring for himself, not by a long shot.  He had all sorts of self-created and untreated health issues--alcoholism, obesity, high blood pressure, gout, failing kidneys, and the associated issues of nausea, vomiting, joint pain, impaired vision and extreme fatigue.  He was long-term unemployed (and unemployable).  His mobility was limited.  He neglected his home environment and hygiene, and he spent most of his days napping.  He couldn't feed himself reliably, unless you count ordering DoorDash every night as reliable.  And those were just some of his physical issues.  On top of that were mental issues including bouts of confusion, meanness and extreme self-centeredness characteristic of NPD.  In short, he is incapable of putting his children's interests first, let alone caring for them in an appropriate way.  Anyway, I imagine you can figure out that the kids weren't safe living with their dad.  He couldn't reliably feed them the simplest meals, like cereal for breakfast, PB&J sandwiches for lunch and spaghetti for dinner.  He wasn't even AWAKE at breakfast and lunchtime during his parenting days.  Basically he reversed roles, expecting the kids to be parentified and cater to him and his needs, while he was functioning like a child with a credit card.  As an example, the kids spent a lot of their time waiting for dad in urgent care clinics, in lieu of attending their usual after-school activities.  Not only that, but he was emotionally abusive to the children, calling them horrible names, exposing them to age-inappropriate subjects (e.g. nude photos, R-rated movies), and subjecting them to emotional manipulation, not unlike the quote I highlighted above about threatening suicide.  It's not fair to subject kids to that in my opinion.  For example, one time he drove into his driveway but refused to get out of the car and go in the house together with his three young kids.  The kids went inside by themselves (hungry of course), but after a while, they grew more and more worried.  His precocious daughter thought her dad was having some sort of health incident in the car, but he just yelled at her and told her to go back inside, while he refused to budge.  She ended up crying and asking her dad if she should call 911 for him.  Eventually she convinced him to give her his cellphone so that she could call her mom and ask her what to do.

And so I'd say, it sounds to me like your wife is functionally like a child, as she needs someone else to feed her, provide for her and cater to her emotional needs.  She can't handle employment or key adult responsibilities, right?  And you're not comfortable leaving the kids with her because of this?  I'd say, you need to document all this as best as you can.  Why?  Because right now you have a temporary situation that is working, in the "least bad" sense.  But my suspicion is that the situation is highly unstable, and your wife could go off the rails and make your homelife miserable again.  I'd say, you need to build a case for sole physical custody of your kids, until their mom demonstrates she can actually take care of herself, before she can even consider taking care of kids on her own.  I think it's not fair to expect kids to act like adults while their own parent is acting like a kid, and I think you need to protect them from that sort of situation as much as possible.  Maybe the solution for your wife would be some sort of supervised, short-duration visitation, which wouldn't include overnights for the kids until she got her act together.  Does that make sense?  I can't help but wonder, does your wife even want the responsibility of taking care of the kids on her own?  Or does she only want them to get back at you?

Just some food for thought.  All the best to you.

I know my father considered it although it was BPD mother who made the most threats- empty ones. While I think my father had the sense to not discuss this with kids, because of the conflicts- at home where we saw them, and BPD mother's threats, I eventually asked him. As kids, at about 9-10 like yours, we really didn't know enough to ask.

From a parents' perspective, it must have felt shocking to have a teen daughter ask pointed questions, but BPD mother was bringing up their relationship issues. That was not appropriate but we heard it.

I know there was more to it but being confronted, he did say some. I had no idea at the time how unable to manage on her own she was. It was well hidden and Dad's support covered a lot of it up. He didn't reveal it either, he must have known.

Some of his responses were probably covers for the situation. He sometimes said it was too expensive but so was BPD mother and her uncontrolled spending. At one point he mentioned doing this and letting her find someone else. She was very attractive and now I see that would have been the only way she could have managed.

But he also did love her in a way- and when she could pull herself together, she was very charming. Sometimes he appeared smitten with her. The push pull I think also gave him some hope. It's also possible that there was less stress once we kids were grown and out of the house, and he didn't have the parenting duties in addition to her. By our teens, we were very self sufficient. However she remained a challenge.

I think he did feel trapped but I think a part of that was feeling responsible for her. The stress on him was apparent, even if he didn't talk about it. He was irritable at times and snapped at us. It was different when he was alone with us, he was more relaxed and engaged.

He did feel responsible for us kids and in her era, custody went to the mother. She would have pulled it together in court. Also in their era, many women didn't work outside the home. She had no work experience, and was unable to function in a job even if she did. I think he felt responsible for her.

Where things unravelled was when he got sick in his elder years and she didn't have as much of his supervision and emotional support. That is when I saw the full extent of it. Knowing he was very ill, I did bring up concerns about how she could manage on her own. I offered to help manage their finances as I knew she'd mismanage them. She refused. Eventually she did mismanage them. I had to have boundaries with her but stay in contact with her and was the next of kin contact in her elder years.  Fortunately there was enough funds left to cover her care facility.

My own take on this is that what is best for your own mental health is the best for the kids. If staying together leaves you stressed and drained, then that affects the kids too. They are going to see their mother's behavior whether you stay or not. If you do stay for the long run, be prepared for all the stages of this. As difficult as divorce is, if it did come to that, there might be resources in place for your wife that she is on SSI which could make her eligible for Medicaid in her elder years if needed.

One thought is to seek out this kind of information- what is she eligible now and later, even if it doesn't come to that. I did seek this out for my BPD mother- what are the options for her care if there are any. While the elder years are a ways off for you two, having the information itself may help you with plans whatever direction you choose.

Projection and shame avoidance- and denial, are an aspect of BPD. Also they tend to see themselves in victim position. Telling them directly about their behavior is likely to be projected.

BPD affects all relationships and while romantic relationships may be most affected due to the closeness, it impacts others- family, friends, employment. What makes this difficult is that they can perceive an issue as being done to them. So it is possible that a classroom of 12-14 year olds will test boundaries and that can get out of hand if the teacher has poor boundaries or lacks the emotional maturity to deal with it. The pwBPD who has interpersonal issues is more likely to perceive an issue as being done to them. "The kids are bad kids" rather than to see the larger picture.

It's hard to see it when you are the one being accused and in a close relationship. You want your partner to think well of you. Where I saw this more objectively was in my mother's elder years where she'd say how terrible the aide, or nurse, or doctor is and I knew them and they weren't terrible. She had one helper who she complained about but when I met the helper, she was wonderful.

It's better to handle if you see projections as being about them, not you, and not take it as personally albeit, it is still hard to do, but it does help.

Wendy - I often think about what you have said about your dad.  I'm wondering if he felt trapped in a way.  Had he filed for divorce, what would have happened?  Do you think your mom would have been capable of at least some level of self-reliance?  From what you have said, it sounds like maybe not.  Do you think your dad considered that route, but didn't go that direction because of that fear?

Zachira- I understand and I also feel similarly- like not having many friends. I think it is connected to our upbringing. In ACA groups (which include dysfunction not only alcohol in the family) one of the issues we have as adult children is to isolate ourselves.

I think because we tend to be aware of the emotions of others, being around a lot of people a lot can be tiring. Being alone is a way to feel the most emotionally safe. Too much of it is lonely.

I know I need to work at making more friends but rather than force it- I do things that may lead to that. I joined a work out class for women and have met people there. Any activity that brings people together is a chance to meet people. It's hard to put yourself out there and work at making a friend but if you join a group where there's common interest with yours, it will put you in a place with other people. Accept yourself about what works for you. I have a friend who has a wide circle of friends and likes to socialize. I like to do some of that. I'm fine with a smaller circle. We don't have to match everything to be friends. The connection is that we have boundaries, common interests. Be yourself Zachira- you are a kind compassionate person and there are people who would be glad to know you.

My BPDw is a teacher.  Well, an on-and-off teacher because she can't keep a job more than a few months.

Her latest job was teaching kids in the 12-14 year old range.  She complained that they cursed at her and called her names.  Definitely unacceptable.  She said she did not have thick enough skin and could not handle the abuse, so she quit.

Were the kids really that abusive?  IDK.  Probably at least a few of them a little bit.  I was that age once, and I can't say students always treated their teachers kindly.  So I don't know how bad things really were.

But what I do know is that W can curse and belittle and call others' names - me, friends, family, our kids.   And she expects us all to accept that she has a mental illness and brush it off.  Does she make the connection somewhere deep inside?  IDK.  But in 14 years I can't think of too many times she has acted truly contrite.  I don't think she remembers her own behavior. 

Another example - she will talk about previous partners who cheated on her, mistreated her, or ghosted her.  But from what I know of her she has probably cheated more than she has been cheated on, and has probably ghosted way more than others have ghosted her.  And those that did ghost her probably felt they had to. 

So yes, I think what you experienced fits well with BPD.

Glad you posted an update. It seems it is working better with the two of you as room mates basically. Is this the plan, at least for now. You stated that if she moves out again, you would consider legal action but that leaves that decision up to her. You saw how that worked out and she isn't able to maintain herself on her own. Should she move out, it would likely be a similar situation as this is her capacity.

She also isn't able to hold a job, however, being on SSI disability, if the two of you weren't married, she would be eligible for Medicaid health insurance or disability Medicare so that concern may have a solution.

However, the idea of your wife- or if it were your ex wife, and the mother of your children being unable to manage on her own is understandbly a concern. I think in the case of divorce, there would be alimony and whether or not that impacts Medicaid/Medicare eligibity, I don't know, but getting SSI would be in that favor.

I think this was also something my father was concerned about, although I was not aware of the extent of my mother's difficulty with functioning until later. The kids are 9, they aren't able to fully comprehend it either. However, you are right that taking on the parenting is in their best interest. Your wife isn't capable of that. My father took that on too, and I can see why he did it. The silver lining to this is that we kids have good memories of outings with Dad- to the park, the Zoo, the movies. It doesn't have to be elaborate or costly. It's the time with you that counts.

Nothing has to be decided at the moment and so being where you are at is the situation now. If this is working well enough that you can manage then no need to change. It seems like this is the situation with the least of chaos and expenses for now.

Typical.  The pendulum can swing to the other extreme almost instantly.  And for no reason that makes sense.  Could be the noise you made while breathing.  Could be that you scratched your leg, or your voice didn't sound right. 

As wendy said - perfection is impossible, because perfection itself is a flaw in their mind. 

Well, I suspect you need to be a little less hard on yourself.  I love to spend time alone!  I enjoy reading, sewing, doing puzzles, studying languages . . . and I think that's completely OK.  But I also enjoy the outdoors, so in summer I go to the beach and car shows, in the fall I go hiking, and in winter I go skiing, even if it's just cross-country skiing in my yard and neighborhood.  If the weather isn't great, I go to the gym instead, where there are tons of other people just like me, trying to get some exercise.

Look, my mom is a widow, and while she spends a lot of time with grandchildren, she also needs a break from them.  Who are her friends?  Well, some are from church, some are from a volunteer organization, and some are from a quilting club.  The quilters make blocks together, and they also go to quilt shows, some which are weekend-long trips.  In addition, she is a regular patron of the local arts, and she goes to several shows and/or concerts every year; I'm pretty sure she gets season tickets.  Sometimes she'll have an extra ticket, which gives her the opportunity to bring along a friend.  She also belongs to a book club, but frankly she says it's too much for her right now, as she doesn't like the pressure of having to read some books she doesn't like.  I told her, that's OK, maybe take a break from the book club this year, because your schedule feels overwhelming right now.

I guess my point is, once you start doing something you enjoy (say, seeing live theater or jazz), when someone asks, How was your week? (or, Do you have any fun plans coming up?), well you go ahead and mention the theater or jazz experience.  Your enthusiasm will shine through, and maybe your acquaintance will say, Hey, I love jazz too, have you ever been to the club in town?  Would you like to check it out sometime?  And there you probably have a new friend, whose focus isn't endless trauma.