Hi there,

There have been times in my relationships with pwBPD and BPD traits when, no matter how much validation and attempts at understanding I've tried, it just doesn't work.  Sometimes I think that validation can't work, because the pwBPD feeds off of the emotional energy and takes the validation as a confirmation of guilt, as well as an invitation to escalate.  Rather than calm them down, sometimes validation riles them up.  And sometimes the twisted narrative seems to become more and more convoluted at each successive telling.  In other words, in some instances, validation makes things worse, not better.  In fact my theory is that the farther back the grievance goes, and the more repetitive it is, the worse validation works.  She's not trying to resolve a current problem or incident, she's creating a narrative of abuse/trauma/victimhood.  She's not trying to find a way forward, she's actually digging herself deeper into a pit of negativity.  She doesn't want a two-way dialogue, she wants an audience and a punching bag.

It seems to me that your spouse is engaging with online videos to seek external validation of the abuse and trauma she's feeling.  But rather than feeling better, she's riled up.  Then she insists you share in that experience, and second the motion so to speak.

I admit I've called out the *ull sometimes.  I don't usually go into a long lecture or "let them have it," but I call it out.  "That's a lie and you know it."  "I've heard enough (of these baseless accusations)."  "Admitting to a lie won't make you feel any better."  "Nothing I say can make you feel better (so I'm not discussing this further)."  "I'm not watching any videos made by AI."  "You are not a psychiatrist, you can't diagnose me."  "I'm nice to you, I don't deserve this."  "I refuse to take part in your blamefest."  "Your attitude is too negative, I'm not letting it ruin my day."  "If I am the horrible person you claim me to be, then why are you even here?"  "You want to move, how am I stopping you?"  "You make all sorts of demands, but when was the last time you did something for me?"  "This isn't a discussion, this is a rant.  You want me to be a punching bag, and I'm not having it."  And sometimes, a simple and firm "NO."  They say NO to me all the time, I think I've earned the right to say NO sometimes.

Nine times out of ten, they are shocked into silence.  I think they were so used to validation that the pushback was unexpected, and therefore effective.  Then I usually proceed to give them a "time out," and later try to change the aura into something neutral or positive.

Hi GrayJay,

You seem to be waiting for her to leave as an unfortunate event. In reality, she doesn't want to do what she says she wants. In reality, she just wants to "punish" you more. Do you realize that it doesn't make any sense to look at the neighborhood together with you (the person that supposedly she wants to get away from)? What she actually wants is to make you feel the pain of imagining that she is leaving, and with that she seems to be having success.

If you actually took an active role in getting a place for her, then maybe she would move out, but she would keep calling you every day and expecting you to do all of the things she needs, just like now. Then she would probably say the place you got for her is awful and that she will have to return home with some wild justification (such as accusing you of making her an isolated prisoner and depriving her of whatever).

The only way that the current situation could be reversed is if you figured out how to stop being at the receiving end of it. For instance, let's suppose you confronted her, asking if she wanted you to leave, and she confirmed it. Then let's say you got fed up and actually left. Then, if you were not faking it, then she would really bend over and start treating you well. I can tell that from my experience.

I have been in a similar situation as yours multiple times in my life, with multiple women, and all of the times what I said just above was proven true. Once you are not at the receiving end of it anymore, things change. But that takes a lot of emotional strength and capacity to live on your own.

To add- I mentioned obligations but also FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) is different. In the case of divorce, the law decides what your obligations are in terms of spousal support, divisions of assets.

After my father passed away, we kids would visit BPD mother and it seemed that every visit included verbal criticism and rage. It felt as if our presence somehow triggered this for her, and it had nothing to do with what we actually did. We avoided drama, didn't react to her, and tried to make the visit pleasant.

No matter how much we tried to make the visit a good one, this seemed unavoidable.

I recall one visit where we spent the entire time doing things for her and even hosted a family get together for her with her extended family. At the end of the visit, all she said to me was that she wanted me to know how much the visit had hurt her.

I knew to not JADE. I apologized- I said I was sorry that the visit hurt her. I drove home in tears, as having made a good effort, seemed to have failed with her.

I think what she said was her verbal vomit. I don't know if she believed we hurt her. However, her words were hurtful. I would have difficulty sleeping for a few days before and after the visit and feel anxious about the visits. I think one can only tolerate so much of this.

I know we each decide for ourselves what to do, but I could see that being around this was hurtful, whatever her motives were. I think we all balance our obligations in some way- she was an elderly parent, yours is a wife, but also we are a half of the relationship too. If this was difficult to tolerate with visits, it think it would be much more so to live together.

I don't believe we have to enable someone to be abusive to us. This wasn't what I wished for. I wished the relationship was better but we can not control someone else's words and feelings. I still visited but with boundaries. I think there's a grief involved with realizing the situation is not the one we wished for.

Bottom line- I don't know how much of this anyone can tolerate. It's probably different for everyone and it's up to you, but pay attention to how it's affecting your own emotional health.

The four horsemen (reference to Revelation 6) are:

• Criticism
• Contempt
• Defensiveness
• Stonewalling

Those all sabotage a relationship.  It's a blend of attacks and reactions.  No simple solutions and no guarantees.  And yes, many here have tried, that's why we came here.  Some managed to find improvement, others didn't and saw their relationships continue to crash and burn.  One key factor is that it takes two to make a relationship work - by working together - but only one to sabotage it.

I decided to set a boundary with my two daughters (one dwBPD the other has OCD and may also have BPD) after I was verbally abused and made to feel like I was a horrible person for asking them for help when their dad got sick.  I have already shared my story about that in this forum so I won't repeat it but I am having a hard time with how to move forward.  My eldest is now pregnant and she cut me off recently. The other has not cut me off but she hasn't spoken to me since I called her on her abusive behaviour towards me. What I am struggling with is that they still communicate with their dad but have not made any effort to repair their relationship with me. I'm hesitant to want to contact them because I don't want them to think that it means they can continue to behave that way towards me but I also feel that if I don't connect with them and try to work towards some sort of a solution that I am failing them. Or am I abandoning myself and my values if I do that?

My birthday is coming up in a couple of weeks and I feel like I am setting myself up for being hurt because a part of me is hoping they will do the right thing and wish their mom a happy birthday, which can open the door to communication, but if they don't then it will break my heart even more.

I just don't know how to proceed or when to proceed talking to them? Do I just keep waiting indefinitely, hoping they will want to reach out or do I reach out sooner than later and check in to see how they are and if there is a way to bring some understanding to this situation? They are both adults with lives of their own and as much as I love and miss them they are old enough to know right from wrong and I guess that is where I am struggling because they are showing me they don't know right from wrong and I may be waiting a long time before they do.

With my daughter who is pregnant, I never imagined that I would be sitting here feeling so hurt and disappointed that I am not able to be their for her as she embarks on this journey.  She took what could have been such a special time in our lives (hers and mine) and basically threw it away like all the love and energy I put into my relationship with her meant nothing.  Now I am disposable? Even if she does come around at some point the damage is done and that moment is lost forever.  That broke me and I don't feel like I can ever have the kind of relationship where I can trust her with my heart again.

Contempt day after day will get anyone down. Being numb does not necessarily mean that you don’t care. It simply means that you have been under too much stress for too long.

Regardless of the outcome, be steady and dignified.

Aarghh …. My entire post disappeared when I tried to preview it. I’ll try again, but I may not say it as clearly.
SuperDaddy, I think you were right when you say that we need to do things differently if we want to get results. We are stuck. I’m applying the tools as best I can, but not every relationship can be saved. My wife seems to have her mind fairly well made up that she wants to move out. I would guess it will be in two or three months time, but who knows. Tonight she repeated that she wants to move to a city that’s a little over an hour drive away. We’ve driven through the city many times on the interstate highway, but we don’t know it very well. She said she’s researching neighborhoods and houses for sale. I haven’t said this to her, but at some point I think I would recommend that she should rent for six months or a year to get to know the neighborhoods better before making such a big decision. And yes, she definitely sees herself as a victim and me as a prosecutor, although every chance she gets she mockingly points out, “you’re such a poor little victim, aren’t you?”

I have told her in an earlier discussion that I wanted to stay married to her and work hard on repairing the relationship, but if she was determined to separate or divorce, I would (very sadly) respect that, and I would pledge to be as civil and decent as I could possibly be. Tonight she said “I think you’re secretly thrilled that I’ll be moving and you’ll be by yourself. It won’t even take a year for you to get hooked up with another woman – and she won’t do it out of love, but for your money. And our kids will end up not getting your part of the inheritance.”

I really think that I’m done with women and marriage after this. I’m almost 70 and I want to have peace for whatever few or many years I have left. I will look towards hobbies, volunteer work, and being in social situations for friendships, not romance. I’ll also have a more authentic relationship with my two adult children.

Mutt, I don’t want to get drawn into the super empath versus narcissist binary, but she is completely consumed by it, and I need to at least engage with her to some extent on it. On the other bulletin board for trying to save or repair a relationship I posted about “poisoned by blogs, reels, podcasts, and other social media,” and I described the situation and how it was incredibly damaging to our relationship. It’s a death spiral down a rabbit hole as you keep getting fed more and more of this content, much of it generated by AI, or at the very least, serious rage bait. There is a cottage industry of self appointed experts on narcissism, mostly geared toward women and advising them how hopeless the situation is - end the relationship now and be happy again.

I’m sure my emotions will be all over the place, but the daily rage and contempt that she spews at me is really wearing me out. If/when she leaves, I will feel sorrow, regret, emptiness, and loneliness, but there will be some sense of relief that I won’t have to face this conflict 24/7.  But right now, I feel very sad but even more so, I just feel NUMB.

I’d be cautious of getting drawn into the super empath vs. narcissist binary. This kind of content can be more polarizing than healing.

What matters more is whether the interactions feel safe and respectful for both of you. Labels won’t help with that.

Hi GrayJay ,

It has always been obvious to me that my wife's outbursts and attacks were related to what she has gone through in her upbringing. However, recently I noticed that the way that her mother persecutes her is very similar to the way she persecuted me. There is a link. This is the type of emotional connection that she had with her parents, and it seems like with me she repeated it compulsively. Though with me she always wanted to play the persecutor, not the victim.

In the case of your wife, it seems to be the exact same. She is persecuting you with accusations.

One thing that Netwendy said is true: to get different results, you'll have to try something new. It's not up to me to tell you to split and live separately, but what I can see is that things will improve once you do. I say that because I know you would do it in a compassionate way, making sure she feels loved during the process. It worked for me. My wife is still difficult to deal with because of her emotionality, but now she won't attack me anymore, in any way. Now she is focused on fixing things rather than breaking them.

A couple of days ago, I was in her home, and I listed for her the 4 things I was expecting her to "fix" before we could be together again. After that, I asked her if she had any complaints about me that I should fix. She thought for a while and said I could share the washing of the dishes. You see my point now? The point is that she couldn't even remember all of the accusations that she was constantly making against me when we lived together. The drama evaporated.

Yes, it can be hard to be away from who we love, and it may feel lonely, but it can also be healing. There is no healing without pain.