100% I know most of us have done it, but when I read threads like this...I'm like 'why?'....RUN. Yes they were the best partner we've ever had when it was good, but it was also so God awful. And yes, it's nice to want to be a better partner, that shows you can see other perspectives and want to grow. But what is she doing? What did she do with her time away other than be with other men, they ran away or she did her BPD thing and left them too? Is she in therapy or an any psych meds?

If not, this is just going to crash and burn again.

In her elder years, BPD mother's phone calls to me were mainly need based. Usually an emotional need. She'd even say she needed to speak to me so she could feel better- if she felt anxious or upset.

This is different from a relationship with an adult child. An elderly  parent is a unique situation, and while we needed boundaries with the BPD behavior, being available for emotional support when we could be was a reasonable expectation to us. If she called, we'd answer if we could be available.

We also called her on a regular basis, but often when we did- she'd not want to speak. She'd say she can't talk, she's too busy, and hang up. If she was in the mood to talk, the conversations were mostly light- about a movie, or a book, or something not emotional. When she called "needing to talk" what she needed was for us to listen and to validate.

One thing to ask yourself when you call, who has the need? If you are calling because you feel you need to speak to your son, maybe he doesn't have a need at that moment.

Adult children have the developmental task of differentiating from their parents, and I think in particular, for a young man, their mothers. Your son may be experiencing dual needs. One being- he may still feel dependent on you, but he knows this is not the norm for an adult man, to be "needing his mother" and in fact, may be seen as humiliating, and so he may also swing between the two- one needing you, one pushing you away due to preserving his self image.

You still want this relationship with your son, but it may be that it can be on his terms only. We wish for some form of reciprocity with a family member- but with a pwBPD who is overwhelmed with their own feelings- this may not be possible.

So, with BPD mother, if we called and she didn't want to talk, then that was how it was. If she did- and we were available then we talked but we let her take the lead on what she wanted to talk about.  When your son calls you, he wants to talk- that's still contact.

I think it would have helped to have a book like that when I was a child, but while BPD mother appeared to have the most difficult behaviors, she was not the only reason my family dynamics were not "normal". My father, who I still attribute the positives in the family to, also enabled the dynamics.

I didn't adopt BPD mother's behaviors. It was later when I had to work on my own co-dependent, people pleasing, enabling behaviors that I realized that these were dysfunctional behaviors, but in my FOO- these were the "normal" I thought they were.

So while I think this book would have been helpful to me as a child, it's also likely that I would not have ever seen it. The family rule was to uphold that BPD mother was "normal". To have exposed BPD mother would have caused her extreme distress. We appeared to be a "normal" family to people outside the family.

Protecting the children is a common topic of discussion, and while I don't know the road not taken in my situation, I don't believe that only one choice- to stay or leave is the better one. It's an individual situation. While my own focus is protecting the kids- it's not at the expense of the partner of the pwBPD or the pwBPD. IMHO, it's connected. The more each parent can work on their own emotional well being, I think the better they can set an example of "normal" for the kids. Sometimes only one parent is capable of that but that still sets an example.

I went through that phase with my BPD daughter as well.  I'd call and she'd answer saying, "What do you want?!?  I'm busy!!!"  So I stopped calling entirely and just waited to hear from her. 

That made her mad too, dad never calls and reaches out anymore, but I thought to myself what was better for me?  I could get yelled at for calling, or I can be seen as a bad dad for not calling.  But if I'm getting yelled at then I guess I'm a bad dad in her mind anyway.  So I made the choice that's best for my mental health.

If she calls, I'll talk all day about nonsense if that's what she wants to do.  Or I'll help her talk out real problems on occasion.  I refuse to make the effort and be punished for it though.  That's a part of my past and I won't go back to it.

Forgiveness is the basis of any relationship.  If you love someone, you forgive them.  It might not be easy, it might not sting for awhile, but love should conquer all.

Now, I'm not talking about abuse.  If someone is abusive, you don't forgive...you run.  If someone is a serial cheater or a drunk or an addict, you can't forgive that either because it's happening all the time.  So don't take this the wrong way- I'm talking about normal everyday mistakes here.

BPDs are notorious for black and white thinking, seeing things in absolutes.  That's the aspect of this that becomes so incredibly hard.  If they can't forgive, how can they love someone?  Honestly, they can't.  Love and hate don't go together.

I've said this in almost every post to you- THIS CAN WORK.  I've seen it, I've lived it.  To change her absolute thinking and her list of "unforgivable sins", you have to change your relationship and how you communicate.  That means forgiving her first, for everything she's said and done.  It's also admitting your mistakes and owning your part.  If you do that, there's so much less to fight about and it disarms them.

This CAN work, I'm positive of it.  That's not the question though.  The real question is whether or not the cost is too much to actually make it work.

I think you're doing all the right things.  Keep reading, keep working through therapy, keep trying to understand that she's hit her thumb with a mental hammer.  Also, try to validate her FEELINGS and EMOTIONS.  Don't argue, just accept your mistakes and move on.

You're doing everything you can to give this a real chance at working.  Give it a little more time and keep working the process.  Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't.  But you're going to be a better man on the other side of this regardless because you're setting yourself up for long-term success.

Those are good points CC. His typical call time will be on his way home from work. Maybe once month, Maybe twice. I usually don't call because I don't know his mood and I know he's busy. I generally text a short  message - Been thinking about you and wanted to say Hi. Sometimes he responds at some point- sometimes not which is ok. I called this time because he invited me to. So when I saw that was an offer he couldn't manage,  I felt like I can't trust some of what he says. Actually he will offer to do things for us. He may mean them in the moment but basically they just words.

Indeed that IS improvement.  I'm wondering, have you noticed a pattern when your son seems to be in a better mood?  Maybe when he calls you instead of vice-versa?  Maybe on weekends and not on weekdays?  After dinner instead of before?  On his drive home from work?  I'll give an example.  When I was in college, my mom used to call me at 7 am on Saturdays and want to talk for an hour.  That used to drive me bonkers!  Not only did she sabotage my sleep, but that of my roommate, because we shared the same room and the same landline phone.  I begged her not to call on Saturdays so early, if not for me, then for my roommate.  Her response?  "I NEED to talk to you, and it's the only time I know I can reach you."  She seemed oblivious to what my needs were--to sleep in on Saturdays, to be respectful to my roommate, to keep the conversations shorter, not to feel like she was guilt-tripping me, etc.  At first, she wouldn't take No for an answer.  So when she continued to call on Saturday mornings at 7 am, I'd take the phone off the hook instead of answering.  Then I'd call back some other time on the weekend, and since it was long distance, I had a good excuse to keep the conversations short ("Gotta go Mom, this is long distance").  It took a few more weeks, but eventually she accepted the new routine.  That's a long-winded way of saying, sometimes just finding a better routine (child initiates the call when convenient/relaxed/has privacy) can completely change the tone of the conversation.  Maybe the cadence needs adjusting as well.  Once a week felt like frequent contact for me; I probably would have preferred once every other week or once a month.  My mom would prefer daily or multiple times a day!  But once a week ended up being a reasonable compromise.

Another bell rings.

We're speaking tomorrow night by phone.

Today she sent me an audio note with 12 un-forgivable actions. I happened to be walking into therapy and utilized the time to listen to it alongside my therapist. I dug deep and  could quickly recognize my failure to properly validate my pwBPD's feelings over time. But laying all 12 out made me quickly realize how bad black-and-white thinking becomes... during our first massive fight (and the first time I was kicked out of my house for a week) I bought a motorcycle at a bar at 2am. I let her know during a repair attempt. I tried to laugh it off, like "hey, I did something crazy, too!" Bad move. Any partner would be annoyed. But five years later it's still unforgivable. Not quitting her meds and kicking me out of the house because she "didn't have the combo to our safe with ours kids documents in it." (Arrested Development Voice) she did.

Three were issues with my mom; instances where she picked fights and my attempts to resolve didn't work... I tried to lead horses to water instead of simply siding with my partner. Problem is, I didn't fully agree with her side. She was quick to anger, irrational and I believe overly unforgiving in the moment. These un-forgivable failures seem less about me than a conjecture of a reality that I don't live in.

More failures; inconsideration, one-sided presentations of experiences (where I do recognize some culpability, but I cannot for the life of me figure out where the entire other half of the experience seems to have gone...)

I'm increasingly feeling done. I've stayed longer than anyone else in her life. She's excommunicated her sister three times in 8 years. Going back seems like working desperately to convince her... to take me back? And completely ignore all the other issues? It all feels untrue to who I am and what feels real.

Today I realized that this marriage failing isn't a failure. It's just a reality. I'm not cut out for this. Or, she's not in a position of healing enough to become self-reflective and address my own invalidation through our experiences.

When she texts, my mouth goes dry. My nerves tingle. I think "oh god, what next." The more time I spend away from her... the more time I'm finding myself happy again. And realizing how unhappy I've been.

That's painful. I think I love her. But I really, really don't know what to expect tomorrow. She's "100% done" on her end. Yet she sends me this list... I know a game when I see one. I'm told every time I leave the home (after being told to leave) that "I never fight back for her." Bait I won't take. If she can't see it, there's no point finishing the painting.

When I numb the parts of me that need numbing to exist with her, it turns out I numb everything. And I think I've been numb for 8 years.

Notwendy has often observed that, like so many others, she had no way to know what "normal" was since her childhood home environment was - surprise - not normal.

To some extent your child too does not experience normal home life when with her mother.  You've absorbed a lot of tools and skills while here.  I'm sure you've shared some of that (since minors can't register here).  You would do well to continue supporting her by continuing to share what skills you've learned.

There is a booklet that may be helpful for her to grasp the concept of protecting herself from poorly behaving people's actions.  It's described on our Book Club board, "An Umbrella for Alex".  As I recall, it doesn't focus on diagnostic labels but does give age-appropriate practical insight and ways to deal with problems.

You are willing to work better at your relationship, right?  That's good but your efforts alone are not enough.  What has she done to improve her end of the relationship?  If she hasn't started meaningful long term therapy and is determined to apply the therapy in her perceptions, behavior and everyday life... well, then the future is probably going to be a repeat of the past.

When BPD traits are involved, so much more is needed than promises and hopes.