I didn't think my BPD mother would be a deliberate physical danger to my kids- but I also didn't trust she had the capacity to actually be an adult with them. It's similar to why I wouldn't leave my kids with a 6 year old to watch them. The 6 year old wouldn't hurt them on purpose but isn't emotionally mature or responsible enough to be left alone with kids. In this situation, it was not safe to have them alone with my mother.

The potential danger was emotional. I knew she wouldn't act out in front of them but she would enlist them as her emotional caretakers and also triangulate with them against me or other family members. It's not a child's job to make an adult feel better about themselves. I didn't want to put the kids in that situation.

It was easy to not leave them alone with her when they were little and needed supervision. She didn't have an interest in dealing with small children- arguing, diapers, getting into things. Other adults were always there. It was when they were older and not needing this kind of supervision that she would try to get them to be alone with her. Again, I didn't fear overtly abusive behavior- but was concerned she'd confide in them, put them in an emotional caretaker position.

We had a secret buddy rule with the older kids. Don't go off with BPD mother alone. This was easy to do because they didn't want to be alone with her. It's not that she did anything to them to make them feel this way but they sensed her poor boundaries, her emotional needs and felt uncomfortable. So they stayed together as a group and mostly I was with them too.

Same with phone calls. If we called her from home, I put her on speaker phone. She would get angry at this. She wanted one on one with them. I never mentioned the boundaries but she could perceive this.

They are adults now. When they got cell phones, I didn't give the numbers to BPD mother but she got them anyway from other people and would call them, also somehow seemingly pleased when she got around the boundary. At this point, they had their own boundaries and I left it up to them. One didn't mind communicating with her, another child didn't want to.

Having a hard- NC - boundary with BPD mother would have been a huge issue making it hard to get together as a family at all. I wanted to avoid a big dramatic issue like that. I never mentioned the soft boundaries to her. We just did it. I discussed mental illness and BPD with the kids at the age of young teens - of course they knew to not mention this to her. I wanted them to understand this about her and also about why it was a challenging relationship for me. It's not "normal" to have these boundaries with a mother. I didn't want them to think I was being mean or neglectful to her.

I think you are correct to trust your gut and have some boundaries in place- that you can be comfortable with whatever they are. Your children are your #1 priority here. You can also gage your SIL's effect on them by their emotional reactions. If they don't want to be around her much- that tells you something. Also frequency makes a difference. If it's just once in a while, the effect is less. We didn't live near my mother and so visits were not as frequent as if we did.

However, the boundaries I had with my kids took into consideration that my BPD mother would not be physically abusive to them. If that was a possibility, I'd have avoided all contact with her. I knew this because, she could be verbally and emotionally abusive but she wasn't physically abusive. If you have any concerns of physical harm, then do what you need to do to keep your kids safe.

You also have the added concern of the cousins. I'd be mindful of behavioral issues on their part. Not that it's inevitable. We were good kids in general and hung out with our cousins who didn't have a BPD mother. None of us did anything "bad" but I think it was about equal for us when it came to being silly and mischevious sometimes (kid stuff) . But watch out for any possible behavior issues.












 

Not sure what to write just yet. I'll just say that my other daughter and I just had a 3-hour long conversation about her sister, they're both adults by the way. Bottom line, BPD fits. I'm a bit in shock, have been in denial, and now I am ready to move forward.

Lots of tears, lots of anger and frustration over the years... for everyone involved. The future is scary; will she ever be able to live without those extreme emotions? How can I help her, support her? You know, all the usual feelings and questions.

Anyway, I just found this site, registered and then was asked for my 1st post.

See you all around, I will start looking around here and read now...

This- exactly. Even from a young age, I recall thinking "I won't treat other people like this" and so I do overcompensate without expecting reciprocity but then, I do have expectations and can be disappointed. I think I over value some relationships and hope the other person will reciprocate that value but now, I realize that may be one sided on my part. Yet, I tend to not see it, probably because, I don't want to, until it becomes too obvious not to.

And to loop back to the relationships here- this may be why some of us are so tenacious with these difficult relationships. Other people may have let go of them early on in the dating stage.

Is it dangerous for my kids to be around my SIL with BPD, after about a year of no contact? My SIL came into the family a few years ago, I was welcoming and we built a connection until she decided I was "pure evil," etc., all from things that were innocent or even from things that had nothing to do with me. I finally realized we were not in the land of logic or reason, and quit trying to JADE. She always yelled at me via text, and I finally said we have to "work it out" (haha) via phone or not at all... more angry texts until I told her I will respect that she is choosing not to work things out.

We have a 2, 8, and 9-year-old, whom she was always syrupy sweet to, but also always removed from me to be private with them as much as possible. She loved pushing that boundary even when we were on good terms. Our yearlong no contact was purely for the sake of avoiding something the kids cannot unhear about their mom or otherwise. We have coached them up that she is sick and confused about reality, but the whole family is scared of her so we have no idea what others or her poor 12 year-old son would say to my kids.

My MIL has huge family get togethers where all of my husbands' side attend. We miss them dearly as we religiously were present for these. Supposedly she hasn't had one until this coming Thanksgiving. SIL was typically enraged anytime anyone said anything kind to me or my kids- as things stand everyone misses us, where everyone is also trying to avoid her as much as possible. So I predict this will be a very enraging event for her.

Is it safe to "grey rock" and attend, or are my kids in physical danger? What about emotional damage? Last time she scooped up my then 1-year-old the first moment I looked away and immediately left the house and took her outside, where no one was. And things have turned much more sour since then! We can prep them for her (or uncle or cousin) trying to take them aside, etc., but can we really prevent that? MIL is desperately afraid of her, as she has taken the kids from her and even my BIL before, and so my MIL will literally do anything she wants to appease her, even if it is not in my kids' best interest (this has been the most painful blow of the whole experience actually!)

We want to let her steal as little as possible from us, but not at the risk of safety for my kids (or physical safety for me). SO grateful for this community of experienced people, I greatly appreciate your time.

Notwendy,
You are genuinely interested in other people, really seem to hit the nail on the head most of the time when understanding another person's feelings and how to help him or her. I never want to treat another human being as badly as I was treated, so I tend to overcompensate by listening too much to other people without requiring some kind of healthy reciprocity. I also will not participate in the abuse of another people. So let's say our intense radar from growing up in a family with a mother with BPD who is enabled by most of the people she is surrounded by does determine our wanting to treat others with kindness and respect in addition to not ever being a flying monkey. I do get triggered when I suddenly get mistreated by a complete stranger. I was in the grocery store check out line the other day, and there was a basket on the check out counter unattended. I waited until  the clerk was close to finished ringing up the person in front of me, before I moved ahead. Then the owner of the basket came with several items and demanded to move ahead of me. I refused and she was livid. I later decided that I was not in the wrong as the check out line is for people who have finished shopping. If she had had one defective item, the clerk, could have taken her basket and decided to wait until she came back. I thought most people would have not done what I did. I just am not an enabler of bad behavior most of the time. Both you and I know how harmful and hurtful the flying monkeys can be, especially to children who do not have the same choices that an adult has.

The same dynamics are in my family. The roles of scapegoat and golden child were decided early on.

Where this puzzles me is socially, when someone you assume was a friend, seemingly out of the blue- turns on you like that. While the recent issue wasn't only directed at me- I received angry accusatory texts and right after that was blocked.

I don't think this happens to me more often than anyone else, but I think it is harder for me to brush off- as it is so similar to my family dynamics. I also think I have a higher tolerance for "soft red flags" due to them being familiar. If someone was outright "off"- I'd see that but since disordered people can hold it together in social/public settings- it's not as obvious. So perhaps I tolerate behaviors longer than someone else might have.

I have also learned to have better boundaries with these situations, and also not tolererate behaviors as much. I also wouldn't tolerate scapegoating a child. I think we do get ostracized when we don't go along with family dynamics but I don't want to be a part of that anyway - family or with social situations. I didn't "see this coming" with the friend but now that I have seen her reaction, I will keep things cordial but distant with her.

Thanks for the response! Met with my therapist and she recommended the book Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud. Read it years ago but don’t remember much. I did find a group on Facebook called The Avoidant Haven: Dismissive & Fearful Safe Space that has been very helpful.

Everyone messes up and that's completely normal- we'll never be "perfect" and that's not the goal here.  We can't have a relationship with someone mentally ill if the rules only apply one way.

For your typical day- up at 5AMnd on the run into the evening.  There needs to be boundaries there, but first there needs to be honest conversations that he can relate to.  When he's receptive and balanced (not unhinged, not acting manic or depressed), you need to talk to him about carrying such a heavy workload and how hard it is daily.  Because honestly, he probably sees it but doesn't actually realize how busy you are.

These conversations are walking on eggshells at first, because you don't know how he'll react.  It can't be about him though with something like, "I get up at 5AM and I need to cook dinner?  You should be doing it!!"  For him, that activates his fear of conflict or abandonment, which moves him from a calm state to defensive mode (as he starts an argument and finds ways to blame you).  It's not that he wants to argue, per se, it's that he can't handle that sort of confrontation without going off the rails.

Instead, you go with something like, "I've been so tired lately and my body really needs a break.  It's been so hard lately getting up at 5 AM and being on the run all day long."

Note, I basically said the same thing, but it's all about you and instead of blaming him, it gives the opportunity for him to be the hero by saying, "Hey, I'll order pizza for dinner and tell the kids to pack their own stuff for tomorrow!"  Maybe he doesn't even actually do more work, but he can understand those "I statements (I need, I want, I feel...)" so much better than "you statements (You never, You always, etc)".  One is blame, the other is building a connection.

Again, you'll get this wrong a lot at first because you're human and this is a different way of communicating.  Does that make sense?

Thanks Pook, I completely agree and try very hard to lead with love with him, but I have my moments where it’s really hard to do so! I am striving to get to the point that you have gotten yourself to, leading with love, open communication, letting the “little things” roll off you, etc. I find when I am tired, that’s when I struggle really badly and really struggle to understand why he can’t see that I have been up since 4 am and out the door since 5 am and am totally exhausted and that then expecting me to make dinner, organize all of the kids things for school the next day after doing 2+ carpools is over the top…and makes me want to scream, but I just do it instead! And I want to make faces to him, but I don’t!  I think one of the reasons why the face thing gets me is because it’s kit justifiable and a 2 year old thing to do! I know it comes from his “not nice” personality, his entire body changes (mostly his eyes) and I know “I need to get out of here” fast…well that’s needed to happen in the past, but it’s what goes through my head.

I’m really sorry you’re dealing with this. It makes sense that getting clarity has lifted some weight off you, but the situation is still frightening and exhausting. High-conflict divorces really do need specialized legal help, so talking to a lawyer for a consult sounds like a smart way to protect yourself, even if you’re not ready to leave. You deserve to feel safe, supported, and grounded while you figure out next steps.