I think these relationships are very individual and the time line for personal growth is different for each one, that there isn't a "too late". You are here after 6 years and that is where you are at.

My own opinion is that your T was wise to shift to you examining your reasons for staying. While learning about BPD and DBT is good information for you, that will depend entirely on the person with BPD's motivation to do this, if they will. I think you will gain more by focusing on your own reasons and emotional growth.

I also don't consider staying or leaving as being a success or failure. Each decision is a very individual one and each person makes the best decision for their own circumstances. The person who stays isn't superior to the person who leaves or is better at enduring or making it work. Both staying and leaving are complicated and diffucult decisions in their own ways.

That someone stays isn't always due to them being able to make the relationship better or "normal". I do think the tools on this board and personal therapy help take down the drama in the relationship. We can't change another person but when we change our behavior in the dynamic, there is the possiblity of changing that, and in some situations, it's enough to make the situation better. It does not "cure" the pwBPD. Validating is one of these tools, and it can help, but how much can vary.

In assessing my experience with my BPD mother and father, her behavior is easier to understand. She was the one who had BPD. My father, who in ways was the more emotionally stable one, was more complicated to figure out. I had thought of my mother as being the problem, but he too was a part of the dynamic between them. It was a function of them both.

He stayed, but I think the best explanation for why the marriage endured was again- he had his reasons, and those we can't really know from the outside. It didn't change that my mother had BPD. She was not able to have the insight to work with therapy on that. Some others are motivated to do that, and make progress with that and their relationships. Each pwBPD is an individual too. 

These relationships are confusing because- they aren't all good and they aren't all bad. They aren't what we think of as "normal". I could say the same for my experiences with my parents growing up.

We all started somewhere with learning to navigate these situation, and boundaries, made errors, learned from them. Yes-keep in mind- even if you don't do this perfectly, none of us do or did and your saying is still true-
You are not the things she says you are. You are not the person she accuses you of being. You am worthy of being loved and respected, and treated with care and empathy.

One more nugget- boundaries are made by you, for you, and they do not require anyone else's participation.

If I tell you, "I will take you to the Lakers game tonight, court side seats, if you cook burgers before we go."

That doesn't sound like a boundary, does it?  But it absolutely is.  A boundary is simply "If you do xxx...I'll do xxx."

"If you hit me, I'll call the police."
"If you scream at me, I'm walking away."

Now, you throw out one of those things when your wife is heated...guess what happens?  She screams and hits you.  Why?  Because you gave an ultimatium that she was too dysregulated and emotional to accept.

Look at my "boundary" again.  You spend 20 minutes working, I'll buy $10k tickets for us.  Pretty good deal, right?

My boundary is not a threat, it's not an ultimatum.  In fact, it's reward based if you behave in a way that I feel is appropriate.

The second part of the boundary is that it has to have clear "expectations" and "counters".  If you don't cook burgers, we're not going to the game.  If you do, we're going.  That means that you are ultimately deciding the outcome, not me, and I'm just being predictible with what I said that I'd do.

The third part is consistency.  Obviously I won't take you to a Lakers game every time you cook for me, so that's a bad example for this.  But you have to say it often and stand by it.  She makes the decisions, you act on them exactly as you said that you're going to.  "If you scream at me, I'm walking away."  Expectation, counter.

We don't need to make it threatening though or an ultimatum.  I can say, "Bluebird, I care about you as a friend and I don't want to argue.  I'm going to step away for a bit so we can both calm down."

Now, I'm probably already pretty calm and the thing I need a break from is you.  But I don't have to say it that way because we both know what will happen if I do.  It would be WWIII.

Again, take this time to reflect and figure out what's best for you.  Boundaries work if you can present them in a compassionate way, and you can make big gains with a different style of communication when she's dysregulated (and fueled by emotions).

Welcome, and glad you found this board.

Your comment above reminded me of one thing I've grown to understand, and I also struggled with a lot when I was married to a pwBPD (though officially she is undiagnosed TBF).  That thing is that you shouldn't be comparing yourself to others, or to some ideal standard when you decide what it is you want, or don't want, or won't tolerate.  That's up to you to decide, and what you decide is fine; no need to look outside of you to justify it.  

For example: If you don't like how she treats you, tell her to stop.  If she won't stop, if she blames you for her own behavior, if she deflects, changes the subject to avoid the conversation, if she insults you, attacks, you, etc., well then you're faced with a decision: do you continue to allow someone to treat you this way, or do you leave them?  It's that simple.  No need to compare your situation to other couples.  Do you fight more or less than other couples?  Doesn't matter!  It's too much for you.  Are all women like that sometimes?  Who cares!  She's not treating you how you expect to be treated: with the same respect you show her.  

If you struggle to know what you want, what you deserve, and what you should tolerate, then you need counseling maybe, or at least you need to do some serious soul-searching and reading and learning.

I spent years agonizing over my situation; did we fight more than other couples?  How much was too much?  Were divorce rates lower in the past because people were more tolerant?  Could I do better?  Is this just what being a married man is like?  There are countless shows, sitcoms, jokes, etc. about stuff like this... maybe being miserable is just how it is?

In the end it was all nonsense.  The bottom line was that she was not capable of treating me how I deserved to be treated.  Sure, I suspected she had a personality disorder and was incapable of treating other people (not just me) how they deserved to be treated, but personality disorder or not, it didn't matter.  Had I understood boundaries better, and how I was complicit in setting the tone of how others could treat me, I would not have lasted very long in that relationship.  The first time she raised her voice at me, I would've stood my ground, and if I didn't get an unequivocal apology, I would have known to end the relationship.  I wouldn't have said to myself "Gee, she screamed at me to get out of doing [thing I politely asked her to do], and I didn't like it, and when I said so, she screamed more and tried to blame me for her anger, but it would be silly to end a relationship over this one thing, so I'll just have to shut up and take it." 

By shutting up and taking it, I set the stage for her to do it again.  And over and over again.  I told myself "Well, you're in a serious relationship now, there's give and take" but then I'd see friends in normal healthy relationships with non-disordered people and be shocked that they were allowed to spend time with others outside of the relationship, and didn't have to jump when their partner said jump, and had hobbies and interests they pursued without a guilt trip from their partner, etc. etc. 

First, don't apologize for opening up.  This is a place to talk, vent, question, rant...whatever is needed.  That's what peer support is all about, we're here to support you through this regardless of the outcome.

Second, a trial separation could be a good thing.  It doesn't feel very good right now, but she will quickly realize that she escalated too far.  Her pride will say its your fault, but her heart will know the truth.  That's how BPDs grow, by learning from their mistakes and actually facing the consequences.

Give it time, get some rest, and find a way to re-focus. 

No, you're not the things she says, and you do deserve respect.  But she has a serious mental illness and it's not that simple.  Is it abuse?  YES!  Should you have to deal with it?  NO!  You want to save your marriage though and for real change to happen, both of you must change as well. 

This is not about blame, it's about growth.  You must learn to diffuse her emotions so she can stablilize.  She needs to learn to respect your boundaries and control her emotions.  But hopefully you see, the task is the same for both of you...help her calm down and so she learns to help herself.

Emotional and physical abuse is very confusing for men. Usually for men, the emotional abuse is what hurts the most and does the most long term damage. Men also are frequently discriminated against when they reach out for help from an abusive relationship because the prevailing prejudice tends to be that men are stronger physically and mentally than women, so the abuse a woman inflicts on a man really doesn't matter. Indeed it does.

In around 50 percent of heterosexual relationships the physical abuse is mutual.

As a man, it is important that you understand how the laws in many jurisdictions mandate that the man be arrested if the police are called for a domestic violence complaint unless the woman has a lethal weapon like a gun or a knife. The man is considered to be a lethal weapon by himself because of his superior physical strength.

Do not overestimate your ability to refrain from hitting back. There are countless men who have domestic violence convictions because after many years of emotional and/or physical abuse, one day it becomes too much and the man hits the woman on one occasion.

Thank you! I'll add this to my reading task-list.

These have all been such beautiful replies and I'm incredibly grateful.

In-between my post and now, things devolved into a very poor state. Partially due to my inability to set effective boundaries (and my heart wanting to constantly de-escalate and repair) a compounding text with my wife devolved as my validations were met with hostility (my CBT therapist and myself have worked hard on helping me understand validation... acknowledging that throbbing thumb is real even tho the accusations attached to it are factually questionable). I set a boundary (first time!) that I would not communicate anymore unless she communicated with respect towards me. This spiraled quickly. Then I got a call and was told to leave the home. I told her I would not engage with this conversation.

She then texted me saying if i didn't leave the home immediately she would be physically violent with me when she got home. I left, not responding to her texts. They kept flooding in. Then I called her and said "I will not text you, but I will speak with you."

That was a misstep. I removed my own boundary. She hurled insults at me and I took the bait. I said things I've been wanting to say. "God forbid someone doesn't actually want to leave you," "you are the biggest victim I know" and "you are emotionally and physically abusive." On the other line, she was screaming and hyperventilating from her car.

It felt good. Then it didn't. Same way that when she hits me, I don't feel the desire to hit her back because I know how much pain it would cause and the idea of her in pain is tragic.

Love is a co-dependency. For sure. And I'm absolutely at a loss with where to go. We have two kids, teenagers, one of whom left the home last year after a fight with her while I was travelling. Moved states to his dad's. It tore her apart. In that time, she burnt the world around her down until it was just myself and one of her sisters left. Slowly, we worked to get our son home. And then we did, and started to rebuild.

We started this year with our third couples therapist and were about to move to a DBT-based couples therapist as ours goes on maternity leave.

I look at every action and reflect. I also am beginning to refuse to accept victim's shame. "You got hit because you wouldn't get out of my face" when I'm five feet away, a foot shorter and have my hands up in a "hey, I don't want to fight" position. "You got yourself hit and you deserved it."

I'm deeply reflective and take all criticism to heart. It's a bad thing, often - I'm not good at discerning what is and isn't true, and so often confuse factual truth with validity/invalidity.

Woof.

Didn't intend to spill out. Trying to focus on work. I've packed my bags and am leaving my home for two weeks. We just moved in. I thought maybe the stability would help us.

But I hadn't moved my books yet, and that became a one-sided argument about how easily I could just leave and abandon her. Trying to dissuade that feeling... we literally just bought a home? What do you mean? Funny to think how a tiny change in words or actions leads to a 10 day mental storm.

None of it ever seems to make sense. That's the hardest part.

Sorry... first time really opening up in solitude while in a group on this.

Lots of reading and reflecting to do. My reminder:

I am not the things she says I am.
I am not the person she accuses me of being.
I am worthy of being loved and respected, and treated with care and empathy.

Hello, bluebird314.  Sending empathy and support.  What you wrote prompted me to recommend a book that is helping me a lot: Margalis Fjelstad, Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.  (Stop caretaking doesn't mean leave, although it can.  That's up to each person.  In addition to the great insight it gives into caretaking (vs. caring), it also provides some things to think about in staying/leaving decisions.

Hello and welcome to the family!  I'm glad you're off the Reddit boards because those are toxic for everyone involved.  Hate brings more hate, and who's right or wrong when everyone is there to complain and talk junk about other people?  That's the world we live in these days but it certainly is not for me.

I'm glad you posted in the "conflicted" section because you certainly do have options.  Your spouse is sick and communication is difficult.  The relationship is also unfair to you at times (maybe, a lot of the time).  But as communication improves, so does the relationship and the explosive moments.

I will never tell someone to leave or stay, unless someone is in obvious physical danger.  Then they run!  But otherwise, the place you're in is the time to put in the work to see if this is a "solvable" problem.

What's that look like?  I have multiple BPDs in my life- an ex wife and a daughter.  We were married for 23 years and I had all the moments everyone here describes.  But at the same time, I also realized why those patterns repeated and it had nothing to do with who was right or wrong, or even love.  It was all about disordered thinking when my BPD had unstable emotions.

Stay with me for a moment.  Have you ever whacked your finger with a hammer?  Or slammed your hand in a car door?  In that exact moment, how did you react?  Did you logically say, "This hurts like mad, but it will be okay in a few minutes...."  Or did you say a curse word, kick something, and lash out in pain?

Mentally, that's what your spouse is going through whenever she's disordered.  Her feelings bring her to that place of explosive rage or endless despair.  Just like when you whacked your thumb and wanted someone to understand your erratic behavior in the moment, your spouse's disordered thinking in the moment expects you to realize she's in crisis and treat it like a life or death scenario.

That's not what she says, mind you...that's what she feels.  Please catch this because I've said it a few times.  Disordered thinking comes from out of control emotions.  You fix one and the other fixes itself.

The conflict part comes from her being in crisis, doing her best to hide it from the world, and you thinking that this is just an ordinary conversation where things are normal.  So she asks you where the ice cream in the freezer went, you say the kids ate it yesterday, and she has a full blown mentdown because she's been wanting that all day and it proves that you've never loved her and that you lied to her about something in 2003 which proves everything she's ever thought!

Disordered thinking comes from unstable emotions.

What you should do (what we all try to do) is ignore the words and focus on the emotions.  Is she sad, depressed, furious?  What would a regular human do when they see someone anrgy?  They'd calm them down.  If they're sad, cheer them up.  It's learning to do this in the moment that makes all the difference in the world and changes the fundamentals of these relationships.

Now, it's one of the hardest things I've ever tried to do and nothing about this is intuitive...but it's the blueprint.  Soothe the emotions, the disordered thinking goes away.

Others will say your spouse is nuts, she needs meds and therapy, she needs to do better.  Sure, all that is true.  But you can't control any of that.  It's up to her.  So you focus on what you can control and that's what I just walked you through.  I hope that helps!

Hi and welcome - nice to see you posting

Yes, 'normality' is the last thing we get in a BPD relationship - the best we can hope for is periods of 'near normality'as we walk in a massive minefield carefully minding our step.

It's good to see that people can make a life out of it though, especially if the one with BPD recognises they have a problem and commits to therapy. Every case is different and everyone's limit is different and sadly, sometimes there simply is no other option than to end it, for the sake of sanity and health.

Ironically, we stay in the relationship because it isn't normal; we're meeting someone who, at the start, seems so utterly perfect for us that we can never envisage anything going wrong. It's a big emotional high and it takes a strong hold of us. Of course, once the idealisation phase wears off and the BPD kicks in, we're already hooked on the line and are now in the 'push/pull' cycle which takes over.

My own relationship lasted 4 years but was getting worse, she never accepted she had problems and the whole world was against her so ultimately there could only be one ending, as I wasn't prepared to accept such a life of ever-increasing conflict.

Feel free to post further - we're all in this together