Hi there,

I'd say, go with your gut on this one.  I find the threats and intimidation to be very off-putting.  I've signed dozens if not over a hundred NDAs in business and employment dealings, but I was never, ever forced to sign anything.  You could say as much:  I'm not comfortable being forced to sign anything.  Another way to say this could be:  I'll have my lawyer look at it if and when the time comes.  If he asks you to name a lawyer, just say you have a trusted cousin, uncle or colleague, something vague.  He shouldn't balk at that response because it's customary to have lawyers review any important documents before signature.

But it sounds a little to me like this guy is bragging.  He thinks he's so important he needs you to sign an NDA?  He's willing to pay you 20 grand to get you to sign it?  He's paid past ex-girlfriends to do this?  It sounds to me like he's overcompensating for his insecurities, as well as treating girlfriends like commodities to be purchased, coerced and/or discarded.

My lawyer bluntly told me when I belatedly hired him, "My first task is to sit on my clients so they don't talk and make their bad situation worse than before."

This is a reminder that we have a right to remain silent.  There is another aspect to remember... Most courts ignore unsubstantiated complaints older than six months.  So if she goes down that path, don't enable her by trying to explain about the endless "he said, she said" that will typically be set aside as hearsay anyway.


It might be good to add that you need to be careful not to share too much with her, especially the legal advice your lawyer gives you, since the odds are that in her present state she is likely to use that information to sabotage you.

When dealing with the courts and CPS having the right kind of legal documentation of how the children have been treated by both parents can make a big difference  in determining the amount of custody each parent gets. Your wife is already beginning the process of legally documenting that you are the problem parent even though her allegations are not true. Do consult with a lawyer specialized in cases like yours, so you can take the lead in doing what is best for your children. Taking this step does not mean you have to decide whether to continue your marriage or not, as the circumstances may end your marriage at some point.

Many of the family support systems, even the family court system, have a history of default preference toward mothers, probably persists to some extent today.

My marriage was manageable until we had a child.  (She had an abusive stepfather and was greatly triggered when she saw I had become a father...)  It was increasingly difficult, yes, she also demanded our son was to be "protected" from my relatives, even my elderly parents.  Once I contacted the legal systems - police for a "family dispute" - my marriage had crossed a line from which it didn't survive.  We separated and soon were divorcing.   She filed numerous allegations against me during the separation, the two year divorce and even for another year or so after the final decree.  Even after they stopped she was still playing games with exchanges and disparaging me.  Now that our son is an adult, things are less conflictual as long as I don't trigger her.

I say this to enlighten you that recent events in your life too have raised the conflict to a new level and there may not be a way to go back.  My ex was too entitled to turn around and fix herself and her marriage.  Maybe your spouse will listen and respond in therapy for everyone's benefit.  Or maybe not, which means you need to ponder your options.

When it comes to family courts, their approach is typically to ignore mental health concerns.  They act more as referees, monitoring separating the opponents and making orders regarding the marriage itself, the custody of minor children and each parent's parenting schedule.

My concern is that your spouse's allegations may set the stage for the court - which takes the legal stance that it doesn't know you, her or the children - to make a temp order greatly restricting your parenting.  If court gets involved, I encourage you to do what you can to get the "least bad" temp order.  Why?  Because a temp order can last until the end of the divorce - for us as much as 1 or 2 years - and often can morph into the final decree.  (By then, court may assume the temp order has been in place for so long the kids are used to it and improving it may rock the boat.)

Just in case, you probably ought to confidentially get William Eddy's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  It has been a lifesaver for so many of us here.

I assume the hard choice is your decision to stay in the marriage and do what you can to mitigate the situation for your son and also prevent your wife from self harming.

From my own experience in a similar situation with a BPD mother, I think there's aspects of this that are beyond anyone's control. Your wife still has free will to make her own choices. You can do what you think is possible but it's not possible to control someone 100% of the time and it's also not possible to watch them 100% of the time.

I think it's an uncomfortable state of acceptance when doing what you believe is humanly possible for you and accepting that, even then, her choices are not entirely controllable but it's all anyone can do.

I also think it's inevitable that your son will see/hear what is going on. He's in the same house. This is his mother. How he reacts to this is also dependent on his own emotional make up and resilience. It's good that you can have an honest relationship with him but also, be careful not to vent to him or put too much in him. I would strongly recommend he have counseling so he can have an objective person to help him process his feelings and perspective.

Both my parents lived into their elder years. After my father passed away, we were concerned about BPD mother's history of theats/attempts at self harm. We also were realistic about our ability to monitor her, as we had our own families, jobs and knew it wasn't possible for anyone to watch her 24/7. We decided that the best we could do was to call 911 if there were any concerns.

I believe that if someone is a danger to themselves and others- they need a medical assessment and possible hospitalization. This is beyond what a family member can do. To call 911 was the best we could possibly do.

As to divorce threats, these were frequent but the reality was that she would have difficulty being on her own and she didn't follow through on the threats. She also didn't make a major attempt to end her life thankfully. She passed away at an advanced age due to natural causes.Still, one can not tell the difference between a threat and deciding to take action and so, any threat requires a professional to evaluate.

As for your son, I think it is good to help him become independent either through university or employment when he is old enough. Let him know it's OK to seek counseling and encourage him to do so now and in the future if he feels the need to do that. I also think it will help you to have the support of a counselor as this is a challenging situation for you.

Thanks, ForeverDad. 

He’s definitely testing and retesting. I’m hanging in there.  Just needed to vent. 

I will be  forever grateful for this website.  I feel safe here.

Jazz
. 

We had a first meeting (of our third stint) with CPS a week ago on Thursday.
Our stories were quite different. She paints a picture of me as a narcissistic, abusive partner and short tempered aggressive father. I talked about children being exposed to arguing, our dv past (she says it was mutual - technically correct) and unresolveable issues.

They talked to me how one of us might consider a shelter to spare the children from the arguing, ”talk about it with your wife”.
On Friday my wife took the children to a shelter while I was at work. She went about it like you’d do if you were terrified of someone violent. Went no contact for a few hours. Went to kindergarten in the middle of the day to get our son (apprently the carers were crying). Made a brief call to inform me once they had been admitted.

The thing is, despite what they told me, the social workers had told her to do exactly that. I’d love to be angry at her, but it’s true.

The whole ”she needs to protect the children from me” lost some credibility when she came back home the following day already. She found caring for the children alone in a strange place too exhausting to manage and gave up.

We have our first meeting with our childrens’ permanent social worker tomorrow. I feel like I am tight roping over an abyss and would love some tips and support.  (Specific legal tips might be wasted, though, since we live in a European country).

Any thoughts are appreciated.
Specific things though:
 - when refuting her version of events and my parenting, how can I avoid going ad hominem, and also to avoid the appearance of going ad hominem?
 - what to make of them speaking to her as if they believed her and to me as if they believed me?
 - any pitfalls? Dont want to tumble - tightrope, abyss

Pretty similar experience with my wife as under the bridge says.
Although we were married so nowhere to really run away or escape to, but this is how things usually panned out.

Wife - brings something up that she wants to talk about, be it why I don’t do certain things, or why I did something/looked at her a certain way 20 years ago, or whatever.
Me - would calmly and quietly (as it was usually about 1-2am in bed and children asleep) try and explain, give her an answer.
Wife - didn’t like the answer because it didn’t tally with the answer she had already decided for herself. Repeats question.
Me - calmly repeats my answer.
Wife - repeats cycle over and over for at least an hour, usually longer.
Me - get tired, go quiet.
Wife - starts getting angry and builds pressure on the situation.
Me - turns round and says something truthful about her behaviour that is/was the reason for doing something she feels slighted by. She has a go at me, calls me being defensive which yes it probably is but I’ve tried for hours to calmly diffuse the situation to no avail.
Wife - stars crying, gets up, goes downstairs ends up sleeping on sofa.
Wife - next morning, has a go at me for not following her downstairs to carry on the loop cycle of trying to understand that my answer is the real reason why I’ve done this, that or the other and it is not because of the reason that she thinks, or has decided it is.

I’m not sure if this is what they call transient paranoid ideation but once in that loop nothing I could say or do would resolve it, because my answer wasn’t good enough, or believable to her, and if I agreed with her answer that would be wrong too.
I would even try not saying anything, just try giving her a cuddle and tell her that I loved her but that wouldn’t work either, and I would be told not to cuddle her and that won’t solve anything.

hmmm, sounds all a bit P Didley to me.
Why does he want people to sign NDA’s in personal relationships, sounds like he gets involved in risky or shady behaviours that he doesn’t want made common knowledge once the relationship ends and to be brutally honest, it sounds like it will at some point.

And where does that lead. There might be situations you are put in that leads you to feelings of guilt, anxiety, depression.
Then you may end up with an overbearing weight that you need to get off your chest, yet you can’t talk to anyone because of the threat of making your life difficult, and anyone that might approach you questioning your relationship with him will make you wonder if they are flying monkeys, and then you end up with feelings of paranoia. So your health could suffer.

You don’t just find $20k down the back of a sofa, all of those dollar bills will have strings attached.

May I add my welcome too. We've all been through this and it is truly heartbreaking - and utterly impossible to explain to those who've never experienced it. Please try to avoid feeling guilt, as it drains you both physically and mentally. You did your best and nobody can do more. You're the only one who can take care of your own welfare so prioritise yourself.

With a BPD partner you're playing a game where you have codes of conduct, rules and logic. Your partner has none of these and everything in their own mind is always 'the truth' and they are 'the victim'. It's a battle where you can - at best - only hope for a temporary cease-fire but you will never win the war.

I'll post again the 'Three C's'.. you didn't Cause their BPD, you can't Control it and you can't Cure it. Go easy on yourself.