Hi there,

Just to follow up on some themes.

Regarding the new phone for your daughter, I'd say, let her keep her old one.  It's a luxury, not a necessity.  If your daughter is 13 or older and really wants a new phone, then she can do babysitting, dog walking, neighborhood yard work, extra chores or other age-appropriate jobs to earn the money for it.  A $1k phone is NOT in your family's budget right now.  I think it's not "cruel" at all to allow your daughter to work for what she wants.  I know I took on extra chores for an entire year, to save up enough money for my dream bicycle, which I purchased when I was a young teen.  I think I learned the value of hard work because of that.  And I can assure you, I really appreciated that bike, and I took exquisite care of it, too.

Regarding the feelings of entitlement, performative spending and lack of self-control in finances, I see evidence of that with the pwBPD and pwNPD in my life.  For example, my young adult BPD stepdaughter has spent thousands of dollars on elective cosmetic procedures whose results are invisible to me and her dad.  She prioritizes spending on cosmetic surgeries and other non-essentials, which detracts time, money and energy from what she should really be doing--namely, working.  (She's spending the money she got as a graduation gift, and the proceeds from selling the car her dad and I gave her.)  By the way, though she was diagnosed with BPD, her psychiatrist indicated she probably has narcissistic traits.

As for the upwNPD in my life (my ex-brother-in-law), I see a lot of similarities with your wife.  He is a compulsive spender.  The financial support he provides to his children puts them at the poverty line.  Meanwhile, he continues to order out all of his meals, and he buys so much stuff, he doesn't even know what he has ordered.  The imbalance of spending on himself vs. what he spends on his own children is so egregious that the family court actually pointed out the unfairness of the situation.  On top of that, he refused to participate in core parenting responsibilities, such as take his kids to their activities and doctor's appointments, and show up for parent-teacher conferences.  Meanwhile, he has lived in the marital home for six plus years, locking up my sister's equity.  He wouldn't qualify for a mortgage to buy her out of the house because he chooses to remain long-term unemployed (he lost his job a couple of weeks after he and my sister separated, and he never tried to find another one).  When the divorce ruling was made, he was supposed to put the house up for sale, and give my sister her share of the proceeds.  That was six months ago.  He hasn't been able to put the house on the market yet.  Why?  Because the realtor says he still has dozens of unopened boxes in the house of stuff he orderded online.  The realtor can't just throw his stuff away, especially if she doesn't know what it is.  But he is too lazy and/or disordered to sort through his purchases himself, or convince a family member to help him with that task.  My point being, his spending seems disordered, as he doesn't even bother to open his purchases . . .

That's a long-winded way of saying, maybe your spouse has a touch of NPD, and the excessive spending reflects a mix of lack of planning and self-control, plus entitlement, plus a need to project an image of superiority and status, no matter the cost to the family.  If that's the case, I think it's best you take control of what you can, to save yourself and your finances.  Relying on compliance from a disordered person who isn't in therapy is simply too unrealistic.  Even if their intentions are good, their insatiable needs override them.  I also wonder if they really know the difference between "needs" and "wants," because everything seems to be a "need" to them. 

Thanks for the responses and to be honest, I agree with most of what’s been responded from all of you…

As far as the HRT goes, that is definitely not the cause of her BPD symptoms. Unable to recognize that she has had symptoms throughout our relationship, ranging in severity. I mean, I absolutely recall having a lot of thoughts, especially about her sense of entitlement and ridiculous expectations when it came to money many years before her hysterectomy. At the time, I was so locked in my trauma responses I just constantly gave in. There were other things, the inability to be alone and fear of abandonment has been there throughout. The HRT I would say has exacerbated symptoms. It’s almost like putting some gasoline on the fire. But the fire is absolutely there regardless.

Gems - I’ll DM you because I’m absolutely interested in getting advice if you have any on paying down the debt…

CC43 - you hit a pretty spot on. And I pretty much agree with that assessment. Even if she agrees to something right now, it still gonna require long-term follow-through and self-control, which she doesn’t have. The only way a plan would work as if she really agreed to it which include an accountability and us looking at things every month. And again this is all pie in the sky stuff because I really don’t think she’s gonna go along with it. The end of the day, the only way I think it would work is if she agreed to have a personal account that her personal money was transferred to and that’s what she got to spend, and everything else was transferred out and considered not touchable. But again, I’d be less surprised to see pigs fly.

Notwendy - I really don’t expect her to react well but I figure if there is any chance of a slightly different interaction, it’s going to be now before her HRT. Of course it’s still kind of laughable because even if she agrees with something or doesn’t have a meltdown, her feelings and actions may change in the next weeks and months.

Unfortunately, even cutting out the non-essentials I really can’t make ends meet and pay down debt and save if I don’t have some sort of even minimal contribution from her that she’s making right now. As they say it’s better than nothing…

It’s really awful that I’m even having to make these decisions. It really does hit for me how it’s more like I’m dealing with a child than another adult. Long-term even making these changes I know it’s not sustainable. I’m not holding out a lot of hope, I’m just trying to make steps that I think are the best for our family and I’m going to control what I have control over. I mean, if it stays how it is long-term, then I think it really puts into question the viability of the relationship. I’ve made it very comfortable for her throughout our marriage, being codependent and having a fawn response. So I am also trying to take a level of responsibility for myself and my actions. I’ve let this continue for a long time without putting up solid boundaries or taking the steps. I definitely feel I owe it to myself and the marriage to at least take these next strong steps. Either the uncomfortableness will force her to make some changes, or it won’t. I’m definitely not blaming myself, but I am taking responsibility for my share of this, I in fact, don’t expect the conversation to go well. I don’t expect her to make changes, but I have to say the words and I actually have to follow through this time.

Wendy, just another thing on your response and talking about your mother and I’ve seen things you’ve written in the past. It honestly sounds like a lot of parallels with my wife. She’s definitely has a sense of entitlement. She uses a lot of phrases like she deserves XYZ. She definitely puts herself up on a pedestal. But yeah, no concept of finances. We even had a new thing come up this week where first she suggested we buy our daughter a new phone and just do a payment plan (which is essentially a three year payment so another thousand dollars in debt…) during the same sentence she talked about a medical bill that she’s gonna have to pay when she goes in for hormone therapy because she basically decided to stop paying her doctor. The agreed monthly fee that she was supposed to pay him for 8+ months. And she just cavalierly, said she might have to put it on a credit card… but I do have a lot of concerns long-term and the next months, this conversation and what happens really in the next three, six, 12 months is going to guide a lot of of my next decisions. I think I’ve mentioned before that we have an adult child with special needs. It’s very concerning for me because when I talked about, even trying to save up for his future, she just blows it off and says vague things like her family’s gonna make sure he’s taken care of, but there’s no plan. I’m pretty certain I’m gonna have to take the next steps of doing things like setting up a trust for my son and changing my life insurance beneficiaries so most of the money goes into a trust and not to her. I mean, I haven’t figured out if it’s half of the money or most of it but I’m gonna be doing a state planning for my son in case something happens to me or us. But at this point I 100% do not trust that if I passed away, and my wife got the substantial life insurance on me that there would be anything left in Five or 10 years, let alone when my son would need it later in life 

Thanks all

The money issues related to my mother's spending were long standing. I could not fully understand what drove her to doing this. I asked one of her nurses (when she was in assisted living) if she'd seen anything like this- and she thought it was on the level of addiction, uncontrollable. People will gamble, drink, shop, use drugs, even to the point of harm with these and BPD mother also spent to that point.

I think there was more to it though. BPD mother had a huge need for affirmation. She also had a sense of entitlement. This was an NPD aspect of her disorder. That the rules didn't apply to her. I could not imagine spending so much money that my spouse would be having financial stresses. I think your wife is aware that the money is uneven, I think my mother was too but I think this was one way she could feel special or cared for.

The idea of changing the fancy dinners out for a home cooked meal did not work with BPD mother. She seemed to like expensive things.

Mostly the money issues were my father's problem. We kids were still cared for- our basic needs were met. We had food, clothes, education. We didn't feel entitled to our parents' money but we also were aware of the stress over it and knew to not ask Dad for much.

When my father got ill, I became concerned about how BPD mother would handle the finances. I offered to help manage it. BPD mother refused and  told people I was forcing her to give me financial information. Since this felt like a threat to my own integrity, I backed away. BPD mother kept her financial information confidential. We had no idea about what she did with it.

Where this got difficult for me was that she later made me POA. I agreed because I felt it was safer for her to do so. She tended to trust strangers over her own family. It was better if family had access to her finances. However she still kept it all secret. I had no idea where her money was or what she had. We knew my father had planned for their retirement and left her a significant amount, we didn't know what or where. It was concerning because, if she needed me to act as her POA, I'd have no idea how to do that. I asked her several times- but she refused.

Some time later, we found a paper at her home that was a home equity loan. She had spent almost everything left to her and was spending down the value of her home.  We moved her to assisted living, sold the house, put the rest into her bank accounts and she promptly began overly spending it too. Since she was legally competent, none of us could stop her.

I understood then why my father couldn't stop her either. Your situation is different- my father earned the money in the family. With your dual incomes, if you control your part- she may not like it but she has her own income to spend if she likes. I agree with CC43 that the aspect you can control is your income. Your BPD wife already knows what she's doing probably isn't OK- but she does it anyway.

When you speak to your wife- make it about you, not her. Saying things like "I love you but I can't afford all the fancy dinners" and cut those out. Cut some of your own expenses too. This is standard advice. You do like Dave Ramsey with your money. Your wife will do what she does with hers. The money you save should go in an account that is only in your name, to protect it.

As to the LLC, eventually she will have to provide you access for tax time. If she's done that before, then she will likely do it again. If she refuses then, simply say you can't do the taxes without the information, she will need to file separatetly. File for an extention and then you can dissolve the LLC. But chances are when she actually has to give it to you, she probably will, but not before then.

I still think about my ex frequently, mainly, "How could she do that to our family?"  Like everyone else here, I've realized clearly that my life is much better off without her destructive tendencies.  I don't want her back, I don't want anything to do with her.  But the betrayal still stings at times and I'm not sure why.  It's been about 3 years now.

For me, the answer I ultimately came to is that it's okay to love someone that did something horrible to you.  Throughout the breakup, I was kind and patient...and so many would call that weakness.  But it's okay to actually be the bigger person and show kindness to someone mentally ill.  Heck, if everyone did it, the world would be a much better place.  So I don't think it's wrong to question the past at times and wonder about where things went sideways.

Yeah, I've been in that position with my ex and my daughter (both BPD).  I broke through with my kid and we no longer do that dance anymore.  With my ex, we're on speaking terms and she realizes a lot was in her head, but there's still parts there that would never be fixed.  And what it boiled down to was the distorted things she told herself for years that she never shared with anyone. 

Not the arguments, mind you, but the deeper stuff that actually mattered to her (her insecurities, fears, etc).  It was never spoken so there was no way to overcome it.

That stuff can be fixed over time with a whole lot of patience and empathy, but I felt God leading me in another direction and I didn't fight it.  I'm happy for the good memories (raising kids, vacations, holidays, family, etc) and I'm also happy that's not my life anymore.  I had no idea how dysfunctional our relationship actually was.

I'll be a third opinion on menopause and HRT. HRT forms and recommendations have changed over time. BPD mother went on HRT at menopause and due to finding risk factors with that particular type of HRT, they took her off. So I saw her both on it and off it and her BPD behaviors were there in both situations.

HRT has been revised, and newer forms that don't have the side effects from the previous forms are used. I know many women on it. It hasn't caused severe mood swings as far as I know.

What I did see with BPD mother is that her BPD behavior would vary over time. It was always there but less when there was less stress and increased with more stress- normal life stress like moving, or if she wasn't feeling well. If we think of BPD behaviors as maladaptive coping mechanisms, it would make sense there's more at times of stress and less when there isn't.

There was also the tendency to blame whatever external was going on for her behaviors. It's the hormones, it's the move, it's that someone upset her. This is projection and also feeling in victim perspective, and avoiding the shame of accountability and blame.

If she was coping with any stressor with her BPD behaviors- hormone changes could be considered one kind of stressor, but they aren't the cause of the BPD behaviors. Or the reason for her feeling how she feels could have nothing to do with the HRT but she assumes/projects it's the reason.

My guess is that your wife will react emotionally to the discussion on finances. If you do it before she starts HRT- you will then know it isn't due to the hormones. If you do it after, you won't know for certain. However, I agree with CC43- that talking about it to her may not be as effective as taking action with your own finances.

Strange how I started thinking about my ex just a few years ago, after all those years since we broke up.  I never totally forgot her, such is the impact of a BPD relationship, but I never made any attempt to contact her during all that time. Had a great life with other partners who trested me far better so I have no complaints.

Maybe with getting older you think more of 'what might have been' and you look back on your life. I have no doubt my life would have been bad if we had stayed togther, which makes it all the more strange to be thinking about it now.

Possibly I'm looking for the one thing we never get when breaking up with a BPD - closure.  Maybe to hear her say that she made a huge mistake all those years ago and she regretted losing a good thing.  Not likely she'd ever say that though, as apologies were totally alien to her.

This was the part I found utterly impossible to achieve; no matter how much love and care was shown and no matter how far I went out of my way to reassure her, I knew any 'peace' and semblance of a normal relationship was always temporary. I reassure her on one thing, which she would seemingly accept.. only for her to destruct over something else.

Even her family, friends and people who knew us from the many places we went to were unable to convince her I was genuine. Nothing gets through to the BPD mind once they've become fixed on their own thoughts.

It was when she started blaming me for things that I wasn't even present for - like her having a bad day at work, argument with her mother at home, etc - that I knew the relationship would never work. I was never seen as someone who would support her against the world who she should have turned to, in her mind I was always the cause of her problems.

Once you've decided things are truly over, it's vital to stay NC. I almost caved many times but I just reminded myself that if I did, we'd have a week of harmony then the cracks would show again as the cycle restarted.

You have to get out of the 'maybe this time it will be different' thoughts. Without treatment, there will be no difference. The BPD partner will continue as normal but you will be mentally driven down harder than you were before.

With my BPD daughter, every now and then she'll come at me out of nowhere with the most vile stuff.  It doesn't happen very often anymore, but I still have to keep my guard up and prepare for it.

Because once she starts a rant on how I was never there for her, never cared about her, etc. it would be so easy to defend myself or launch into an argument.  I was a good dad that provided and showed up when it mattered.  Instead of arguing though, I'll just listen until I can't take it anymore or she runs out of steam.  When I finally get to speak, I'll ask, "Where did all that come from?  What happened earlier today?"

Sometimes, I get the truth.  Maybe something happened at work or a friend said something ugly to her.  Other times, I get another barrage- the car wouldn't start, I'm broke, my ex reached out, nobody cares about me, etc.  But by not taking that initial bait to launch into a fight, I start to get things I can talk out with her and actually help her calm down.

That's the whole goal here- being able to talk about what's actually going on.

Because what happens is the car didn't start, someone was rude at work, etc.  But the focus doesn't stay on that, it shifts to the people she's closest to and how they're not going to understand how hard her life is.  So we skip the initial talks that she has in her head and advance straight to the, "You're a horrible person that doesn't care about me," narratives that she's convinced are true.

Again, the "fix" is not engaging on that and digging deeper each time.  It can be incredibly hard at times though (as we all know) and sometimes we'll certainly fight back without even realizing what we're arguing about.  It's rarely what they're saying and always what they're feeling...getting that out in the open is nearly impossible though.

Definitely no magical cure; it's more like dealing with someone's phobia (heights, spiders, etc).  They might know logically that the spider is not going to harm them, yet something in their mind screams to panic, run, shout, fight, and 100 other things. 

BPDs go through the same thing.  In their minds, they're the victim of something terrible...which is true (mental illness).  But they can't accept that because of mental illness, so their minds try to blame everyone and everything around them.  What's the most likely problem? The people they're closest to- it has to be them because that explains why they're so mentally unbalanced all the time. 

When they're with someone new (that doesn't realize they're mentally ill), everything feels great.  When they're near loved ones, they feel lousy because real life and all their problems are there.  So why not just toss everything aside and chase the new person since it feels so wonderful?!?

Only, that only fixes things temporarily, because eventually BPD shows up and everything repeats itself.  So this happens over and over and over again.

The fix, if we can even call it that, is to continually build enough trust so things never reach that meltdown stage where everything is thrown away.  Yet, that's the hardest thing to do in a BPD relationship because it takes vulnerability on both sides.  BPDs hide their feelings and often deny where they even come from in the first place.  So it's always an uphill battle.

My BPD ex wife cheated on me and left me for those same reasons- she was happy there, she wasn't happy at home.  But I genuinely believe that she never meant to hurt me and she never had any ill intent; she's just really sick and made some horrible choices due to mental illness and disordered thinking. 

For us to have a chance at reconciling, she'd have to overcome 20+ years of disordered thoughts that I knew very little about.  There were moments when she'd reach out for attention, but it wasn't too long before she scared herself away once again by what she thought would inevitably happen. 

And it sucks, every part of it is horrible, but that's severe mental illness for you.

Make no mistake though, I believe BPDs love unconditionally until a part of their brain tells them to run.  It's exactly like being fearful of a spider or a snake, and their brains are telling them that you're a deadly species.