who really knows. I truly have not asked anyone, learned of anyone else which I guarantee exists or has existed. She knows absolutely nothing about me nor her. I have no social media or shared friends with her. I need a new job haha I understand running into someone in the wild is possible. Here though, I can't really control my orbit. She knows that so decides to pop around randomly as a reminder she exists and I can't do a thing about it. At least it doesn't make me sad anymore.

I'm currently living in the Philippines (because my wife is here) and the average household income is $8/day.  The average cost of living is $10-12/day...and now closer to $13.50/day with surging gas prices.  Literally any person in this country, no matter how wealthy or poor, would immigrate to America tomorrow if given the chance. 

When they do get a chance to work overseas, they are FANTASTIC workers because they've never had any opportunity before and they'll do anything to keep that blessing.  A McDonalds paycheck feeds 10-20 people back home for the entire month.  That's why you see all foreigners in fast food, hair salons, stocking shelves, etc.  They are extremely thankful for those jobs and do not take it for granted.

I think a new interest distracts them, but the dynamic is still always there though.  They never get over the feelings of spite and anger at being abandoned/dumped, regardless of the fault they had in it happening.

BPD (or any Cluster B/Personality Disorder) seems fundamentally different to me than from a mental illness such as schizophrenia, or depression.  In the former cases, there's a calculating aspect to the problematic behavior.  In the latter cases, there's not. 

To put it a different way, a pwBPD may dysregulate, or in extreme cases can disassociate completely, and may have absurd or irrational reactions to events when compared to how a non-disordered person would perceive them.   A pwBPD can make a mountain out of a molehill, and spin the most innocent off-hand remark into a bloodfeud that never ends.  But they still pick and choose who they're going to fight with.  You can see they are absolutely calculating, abusive, and cruel in how they react to those events, and how they treat their close relations.  Schizophrenics do not have that calculating aspect to themselves; they are truly disassociated from the world around them, and their behavior is unpredictable, and not always self-serving.  Those who are clinically depressed are a victim of their brain chemistry and cannot function because of it.  Very unlike BPD in my mind.

To say a pwBPD is "unwell" in the same way gives an unwarranted pass to their calculating behavior.  Maybe in a sense they are unwell, but to allow them that excuse serves their problematic behavior further, and enables them to keep doing it, or do it to an even worse degree.  And also prevents those victimized by them from standing up for themselves and enforcing healthy boundaries to distance themselves from it and keep their own sanity.  Or in the case of children, from developing mature attitudes on how to treat people that don't treat you how you should be treated.


Oh, to be clear, I was not lumping all immigrants together.  I just think that when you see certain types of behavior, the immigration status could be another red flag.  A sign they feel they need to run from something.  like they're always looking for new, innocent "victims," and trying to distance themselves from their past relationships.  I imagine a guy like hotchip's ex, who's apparently a serial cheater, and takes advantage of women by preying on their better nature can't stay in a small community too long before he gets a reputation among the same women as a user...  or killed by some jealous husband or boyfriend who catches him... old school stuff like that!   

In BPDxw's case, it also fits her M.O., and since she's been here in the States the avoidant behavior continues: moving homes or jobs frequently; burned bridges with former coworkers, neighbors, and friends.  She can't move countries again without losing custody of our daughter (and the child support payments she needs to maintain her standard of living), so she hasn't done that.  Still, once she moves, joins all the local message boards on Facebook, joins PTA, volunteers for everything.  Gets to tell her sob story about how hard she worked to get to America and make it here.  Gets to bask in the attention, and feels great when everyone comments on what a go-getter she is.  Then she never shows up, never does her assigned tasks, things fall apart, things don't get done, and she's there making excuses for why.  Blames other people for it.  Insults people in the process.  Picks fights on facebook.  Gets blacklisted.  Runs to find someone to commiserate with.  Triangulates with a "savior" to help her badmouth all the people she just burned.  Moves on... new house.  New job.  New career.  Repeat ad inifinitum.

I have another idea about your feeling of attachment to him. It was romantic but also unconsciously felt familiar and obligatory- due to your experience with your mother.

There are cultural attitudes about mothers and how children should behave towards them. For me, the idea that my mother was abusive was something I felt had to be wrong to think and not dare to say, and a sense that if only I was "good enough" she would behave like other mothers- kind and loving.

The sense of "feeling special" was an aspect of that. We were considered "good" if we somehow enabled, a cooperated with her- and tried to make her happy, as if we had the ability to change her- make her happy. I can imagine that this behavior was reinforced and encouraged in our families.

We don't recognize some behaviors we grow up with as "wrong". They are our "normal". We would recognize abuse if it were obvious- like physical abuse but verbal and emotional abuse may have been normalized in our families.

There's also boundaries and a sense of self that got blurred in families with a disordered person. So perhaps if you say that your ex was abusive in ways- you may feel a sense of this being wrong about you. If you were to think he was not a good person, would that feel wrong to you, or as if you were doing something wrong by saying it (whether he is or isn't) due to your connection to him.

Maybe you also see the good in him the way you did with your mother. Few people are all good or all bad at all times. I don't even think the term "bad person" is that helpful. People might have hurtful behavior for all kinds of reasons, some we may not even know why. It's about recognizing the behaviors as hurtful and making a decision about a relationship with that person. If it's a close relative, that might mean limiting/managing contact and the situations one is in contact with them. If it's a potential romantic partner- one can say "no" to that.

Thank you for your insights TellHill and PeteWitsend, there is lots of truth in what both of you have shared which is helping me.


Thank you for sharing this. Re: wanting people to change - TellHill, like you, I spent years asking, bargaining, harshly questioning and begging my mother to change or acknowledge what she'd done. It's hard to disengage and I'm glad you eventually succeeded.


Pete, re: being an immigrant - I am also an immigrant and live far from my family. As TellHill says, there's lots of reasons why people do this that aren't to do with being disordered. I've spent a long time away from my country of origin, not because I don't want to be there, but because tickets are expensive and there are decisions and sacrifices to be made.

That said, in this case, uBPDx chose to come to this country in a chaotic state, and in the aftermath of the dissolution of his previous relationship, as a result of his having an affair with a mutual friend of his then-partner. He also mentioned that despite having been continuously in relationships since his teenage years, he was not in touch with any of his previous partners - none had wanted to continue having a connection with him after the fact.

So PeteWitsend, your intuition was right - like your ex, he was running away from the results of his own actions.

The big question: are they unwell or manipulative? And in this (and many) cases, I think it's both. From what I've read, BPD ppl often make manipulative suicide threats, as was the case with uBPDx. But they also do commit suicide at very high rates. I think that's part of why this experience, and this disorder more broadly, is so crazy-making. It's an unstable mix of truth and untruth.

I'm trying to remind myself that we can never fully know someone else's mental state. We can only see their actions and how they affect us. Maybe the scorpion really is in a lot of psychological distress and doesn't want to sting the frog. But, we know from experience and observation that this is what it's going to do, so if we don't want to get stung, we have to remove ourselves from the situation.


TellHill, thank you for this good advice. I am going to do this. That said, I did speak to one person who said I shouldn't worry about anyone believing his untruths, as they can see he is unstable and his claims are not credible.

The question is, why do I still care? What is the 'hook'?

As you have picked up, I still do feel care, concern and identification with uBPDx. I want him to have integrity, not be manipulative and not be a liar. I want these things though reason tells me they are not going to occur.

Part of that reflects an attachment, not to the relationship itself (which I certainly don't want to resume!) but the story it represents, about myself as 'special' and genuinely loved, and as having the power to pursue a shared life based in integrity with another person. This sounds good, but as I've mentioned elsewhere, it is to an extent a narcissistic narrative. No one is so special they have the power to create integrity for another person.

Perhaps accepting uBPDx is a liar is easier than accepting that my concept of the life I was living, the relationship I had and even who I was or was capable of - is also, to a significant extent, a lie.

Hi Versant,

I know that the prospect of separation, moving and co-parenting can be confusing and stressful.  I'd just like to say that in my opinion, what's best for the kids is for you to be Happy, Stable, Reliable, Reasonable and Upbeat Dad, not Always Walking on Eggshells, Stressed-Out, Distraught and Constantly Fighting Dad.  Kids move all the time, sometimes across states, sometimes to other countries, and you know what?  They're OK if you're OK.  They adjust quickly when you adjust quickly.  If the change is good for you, it's good for them too, because they'll pick up on your positive energy eventually.  Most of all, if you provide them with a peaceful, nurturing home with a healthy routine and a Happy Dad, that will become their happy place too.  If you can make that happen, then I'd advise, go for as much parenting time as possible.  Your kids probably really need time away from a disordered parent, and they will relish their time with Happy Dad.

You worry about how your wife will react when she realizes you're serious about separating.  If she has untreated BPD, I think it's fair to say that she'll go ballistic.  She tends to act out when she doesn't get her way, correct?  The same goes for working out custody plans.  I think you have to assume she'll be furious and fight you hard.  Plan for the worst, but hope for not-so-bad.  You have to be ready, with resolve, and with documentation.  I think the general advice here is to document, document, document--any abusive, unhealthy or violent actions by your wife which could harm your children.

PeteWitsend, I consider pwBPD mentally ill or unwell. I don't like the segregation of personality disorders into another category, distinct from other extreme mental illnesses such as schizophrenia. I think BPD and schizophrenia are both persistent and do not go away.

It's interesting to note that my late dBPD mother was an immigrant, as was the rest of my family. I've got plenty of disordered relatives. There are other reasons for coming to a western, stable country other than finding new people who don't know your past relationships.

There's poverty and hunger. There are also countries with toxic governments and psychological torture. My family is not from East Germany but the goverment from their country did the same. Their secret police and the secret police from my parents homeland collaborated.

From Wikipedia: Zersetzung (pronounced [t͡sɛɐ̯ˈzɛt͡sʊŋ] ⓘ, German for "decomposition" and "disruption") is a psychological warfare technique first used by the Ministry for State Security (Stasi) to repress political opponents in East Germany during the 1970s and 1980s. Zersetzung served to combat alleged and actual dissidents through covert means, using secret methods of abusive control and psychological manipulation to prevent anti-government activities. Among the defining features of it was the widespread use of counterespionage methods as a means of repression.[3] People were commonly targeted on a pre-emptive and preventive basis, to limit or stop activities of political dissent and cultural incorrectness that they may have gone on to perform, and not on the basis of crimes they had actually committed. Zersetzung methods were designed to break down, undermine, and paralyze people behind "a facade of social normality"[4] in a form of "silent repression".[4]

I questioned my late dBPD mother harshly and my uBPD ex-husband too hoping to get a different answer too. It's human to do this.

Hard to imagine how you have a toddler... though remembering what I went through way back in my married years, not so hard to imagine.


Most family courts will ignore legally speculative concerns, so you will be limited to whatever documented incidents you have now or obtain later in the future.


This is hard to deal with.  The best you can do is to ensure you seek as much of your portion of the parenting time as possible.  BPD traits are known to be on the extreme end of Blaming and Blame Shifting.  In a separation/divorce you can seek prior approval of the court for the children to have access to long term counseling.  No, the other parent is not to seek a biased or gullible counselor to enable her "sour grapes" perceptions.


Most courts accept that (1) moves happen and children adjust and (2) divorces happen and children adjust.  That is no reason to limit your parenting or blame you.  Though your spouse can't perceive the concept in a balanced manner, the children should not be placed in the middle of the adult disagreement.   Children should not be handled as objects on a chess board.

Is there a less negative side to the end of a marriage?

Back in 2023, before you had your second child, your wife filled out divorce papers, so to some extent she's been aware of the divorce aspect for quite some time.

I will mention the custody and parenting aspects in my country.  Most states seem to separate the legal custody aspect of a divorce as a somewhat separate category from the co-parenting schedule.  Should you divorce, the "less bad" outcome would be for the reasonably normal parent to have as much authority during and after the divorce.  (Not that the disordered parent would agree, of course.)

For example, your oldest child will soon be in school, if not already in preschool or daycare.  The course of wisdom as the reasonably normal parent is to limit potential irrational chaos and obstruction in future years by seeking as much legal status and as possible from the very start of the legal process.  If you try to appease by relinquishing custodial Decision Making to your possible ex, then it will almost certainly be exceedingly difficult to fix it later.

Since your spouse may move multiple times during or after a separation/divorce - as mine did - that may impact your employment or your own future life decisions.  However, if you had some sort of "Residential Parent status for schooling" then your ex would be limited in how far away from you she could move with the children.  (Yes, some members here had ex-spouses who purposely moved far away in order to limit their parenting time and options.)