Best of luck. I agree with what others have said.  I also want to acknowledge how scary it can feel to do things we know will rile up somebody wbpd — even when they are the right thing to do and we do them despite the fear.  So if you are feeling any of that, know that that’s a normal human way to feel in this situation. 

Thank you all for your input. I am determined to do right by D6 and the others. I am taking all your comments on board because I know it’s important to handle this the right way and I’ve always said the worst thing I don’t ever want would be for the kids to pick a partner like her. I will discuss it with my wife before it happens, not sure when as I know it’s never a good time but we’re about to go away for two weeks so probably after that…

How to do we create a safe environment for our children when we have a disordered parent insisting on having everything revolve around their unreasonable demands to have things their way especially when out of nowhere become suddenly emotionally dysregulated? I grew up in a household with a mother with BPD. When I had a disagreement with my mother when I was a teenager, my father told me he had tried to get my mother to get mental health help and she refused. He begged me to not disagree with her. When a parent puts their needs first, the roles are reversed which is called parentification. Do put your daughter first and let her enjoy having piano lessons with you. The challenge will be to put the boundaries in place letting your spouse know that you will not allow her to interfere with the piano lessons. It will be very difficult at first, as your spouse will fight this new boundary. I am so glad your daughter has you as a caring loving mother. She needs you to be the role model for what healthy relationships look like.

OK, it's probably obvious that your spouse has unresolved jealousy issues and an inferiority complex.  On top of that, she's uber-controlling.  She wants to be the gatekeeper for all household issues, demoting you to inferior status.  It sounds to me like she's infringing on your parental authority.

What person would dare tell a parent not to educate her own kids, especially in something as enriching as playing the piano?  Well, someone who is insanely jealous of you and thinks you'll "steal" her daughter's attention away from her.  It sounds to me like your spouse is making you as small as possible.  You're probably not allowed to "show off" in front of her, either.  She'll let you work though, because she wants your financial support.

And now for your daughter.  Are you willing to quash her curiosity about music and desire to learn, plus ruin a special mother-daughter activity, just to appease your spouse?  That sounds like putting your spouse's needs ahead of those of your child.  While it's important to consider spousal needs in a marriage, this situation seems completely unjustified and over-the-top to me.  It sort of sounds like your spouse is jealous that you might actually grow closer to your own child through a love of music.

And what will your daughter think in the long term?  That you teach other kids about something you love, but you never have the time or inclination to teach her?

I think the next time your daughter asks, you go ahead and give her a lesson.  If your spouse blows up about it, then you put your wife in a time out.  Now maybe your daughter will feel horrible for "provoking" her mom, but I think she's old enough to understand that her mom is being completely unreasonable!  I think a way to potentially resolve this would to give a joint lesson, so that your wife feels included.  Maybe you ask your spouse for a song recommendation, so that she feels like she's consulted?

I confess I've had some issues with my spouse when he tries to keep me "small," out of jealousy.  I tried reasoning with him (about the absurdity of the jealousy), as well as pointing out his many talents (to bolster his confidence), on top of reassuring him about my devotion to him.  I would say thinks like, "I'm proud of you; shouldn't I want you to be proud of me too?"  That didn't seem to sort out the problem, however.  So I had to take a harder stance, something along the lines of, "I support you, and I deserve/demand the same from you."  You might point out how you support your spouse when she teaches the kids or makes decisions on their behalf, and you insist on being accorded the same sort of support/autonomy/authority.  This is a partnership, not a master/slave, diva/bit part relationship.  Maybe that would work better?  I guess what I'm saying is that if you let your spouse "get away" with infringing on your rights/values in important areas, such as parental authority or alienating you from your love of music, she'll take that as a license to take things further.

Now, I wouldn't advocate arguing over every little thing.  I think you need to pick your battles.  But this one seems like a worthy battle to me, because it involves your child's education, as well as your identity and authority.  Your wife is allowed to feel envious--we probably all feel envious from time to time--but she can keep it to herself and not prevent your daughter from learning about music and bonding with you.

The impact of BPD traits on persons varies from person to person.  We hear all sorts of descriptions by those arriving here.  Starting with the less hopeful:

• Adamantly refusing to even consider the concept of therapy
• Declaring therapy is not for them
• Grudging attending sessions but with blame shifting
• Attending a few sessions then declaring therapist said it's all fine
• Attending sessions but no indication applying anything
• Attending sessions and gradual improvements noticeable

People are not robots, there are always variations in traits between individuals, even people with BPD traits.  It has been compared to autism and various types of additive behaviors... it's on a spectrum from one end to the other end.

So it is good to see the extent of diligence your young daughter is giving toward therapy and seeking a measure of recovery.  It won't be easy.  Likely this may be a life-long struggle for her, similar to how an addiction to alcohol or drugs would require years of effort to overcome, but the rewards are immense, for her and for you.

Hello and welcome to the family- great first post!  I don't want to hijack someone else's thread, so please share a little bit about your expeirences in a new thread whenever you have time.  The community would love to get to know you!

I've been exactly where you are.  My daughter's diagnoses have been all over the place since around 13.  She has been in multiple RTFs, PHPs, IOPs and been kicked out of many of those. She has been inpatient in hospital behavioral health units dozens of times.  She's been diagnosed with bipolar, complex trauma, depression, anxiety, ADHD, and substance abuse disorder at different times. To make matters more difficult, the state in which I live does not allow release of information to parents for patients 13 years or older without a signed ROI consent.  This was not helpful in helping her get appropriate treatment as she did not wish to share this information.  I don't want to scare you, every kid is different.  Maybe I can help with what I wish I had done differently.

My ex-wife and I shared custody of my daughter and she spent time equally with both of us until about the age of 15 when she moved in with me full time. Even though we were fairly adept at co-parenting, my ex-wife and I couldn't seem to get on the same page with respect to boundaries. That is critically important and something I wish we had spent far more time discussing. Both myself and my ex-wife caved in to demands far too often to maintain our own sense of sanity, but it was counterproductive in retrospect.

Pay particular attention to what healthcare professionals are saying and if something doesn't sound right to you, ask for more information and bring up historical diagnoses. Almost every clinician knowledgeable with BPD has told me that these patients are typically not going to get better with just pharmaceutical intervention. SSRIs, for example, don't help BPD. That should be saved for short-term comorbidities such as depression, anxiety, etc...

This may be controversial, but I feel RTFs, PHPs, and IOPs were just stopgaps to ease the transition back from acute crisis. My daughter could write a book alongside Marsha Linehan on DBT, but she can't seem to employ those skills when it matters. It almost feels like RTFs, PHPs, IOPs are a (welcome) respite service. No shame in that.  The concern is that they get used to the crisis>stepdown process and come to rely on it for emotional regulation. My daughter did and does.

When my daughter is sober, working, in therapy, and has a structured schedule with supports - she does well.  When left to her own devices, she does not do well.  When she feels better, she convinces herself that she is past her mental health issues. She went from screaming for independence at 13, to begging for support now. I am doing my best to transition her to independent living and it has been a challenge.  She's been successful for months at a time and she's of the age now where it's critically important that safety nets are mostly removed. It's very important for both her and her family to have her be accountable for the natural consequences of her actions.

I wish the best for you and your family. I'm new here too and it seems like a great resource.

There's two things going on here at once.

First, your partner is jealous of your piano skills.  To me, that's silly because we all have unique skills and we get married to combine them to benefit the household as a whole.  You have a gift of music.  I have a gift with writing/marketing.  I'm sure your partner has gifts that neither of us have as well.

The jealousy part needs to be nipped in the bud directly because it quickly becomes toxic for everyone involved. 

The second problem is what your hesitation to teach your daughter piano says about you and your household.  You can't raise kids in an environment where they're only allowed to learn things from one parent if the other supports it as well.  I can see if we're talking about bow-hunting or skydiving since there's inherent danger and other moral issues involved.  But piano?  You don't need me to tell you that there's a serious problem with that.

But you're actually taking it a step further.  It's not even allowed to be talked about in fear of how your partner might react.  The kids will pick up on this in due time (if they haven't already) and it's giving them a very warped vision of how the world works. 

You- It's okay to ask some things, but never mention other stuff.
Kid- Why?
You- Well, we don't want to upset anyone.
Kid- Okay, but how do we know if what we ask will be upsetting? 
You- Well, we don't...so you'd better ask me things in secret before asking openly. 
Kid- Are you telling me to lie?  I don't understand...
You- Well, no, not really, but you should never say anything until I tell you it's okay. 
Kid- But why?  Why would she get mad at me for asking?
You- I don't know, but we need to be careful to make sure she's not upset.
Kid- So we just need to keep secrets from her?
You- Yes, exactly.  These are secrets just between us.  It's better for everyone.

That is so incredibly toxic and damaging for the kids sakes.  Hopefully you can see that and if any of these secrets came out in the open, I don't know that's something you'd ever come back from.  The feeling of betrayal would be off the charts bad.

The solution is to confront your partner directly.  Our daughter asked me to teach her to play the piano and since it's something I'm super passionate about, it's always been my dream to pass that along to our kids.  Of course you want that, who wouldn't?  So don't walk on eggshells, this is a topic worth putting your foot down on because it's a big part of who you are.

The resulting conversation might turn ugly, but you need to stand your ground and explain that this is about who you are as a person and the best interests of the kids.  This is not a reflection on your partner at all since they teach things to the kids all the time without stern protests from you.  Keep this about you, about the kids.  Use "me statements".  And prepare for some rocky days before this passes.

You have to though for the kids sakes.  They are worth fighting for no matter what.  And your talents should not be diminished just to placate someone else's bruised ego.

I agree with Pook's points, and I too would recoil from the notion that something is "unhealthy," "wrong" or "abnormal" with me or someone I loved.  These labels, along with "mental illness," carry a stigma.  Getting therapy once had a stigma too, though thankfully that is changing in my opinion.

While I generally agree that some BPD behaviors are self-sabotaging and damaging, they do nevertheless seem "normal" to me, in the sense that they are natural human reactions.  Anger, anxiety, fear, despair, hopelessness, jealousy, shame, disappointment, disassociation, numbness, etc. are feelings we can all relate to.  I just think that for pwBPD, these feelings tend to be disproportionate to the situation, as well as intensely felt.  It's like the frequency, intensity and duration of some negative feelings are super-sized with BPD.  That's where therapy can help, to reel the feelings in, get past them and learn strategies for coping better.  I think we could all benefit from learning coping skills!

I think BPD also involves a lot of black-and-white thinking, albeit overwhelmingly black.  One negative experience, and her mind fixates on the negative, blowing it out of proportion and seemingly selectively forgetting the positive when she's overwhelmed.  She lacks context, perspective, patience.  This tendency is directed both externally and internally, with self-hatred being a persistent problem.  She might fixate on one thing she doesn't like about herself, for example her facial structure or weight, and completely forget about her good qualities and talents.  Perhaps this is why her sense of self seems so tenuous.  My theory is that she ruminates on negative topics so persistently that she basically carves a rut in her brain, making her feel mentally "stuck."  Not only that, but she re-lives these negative thinking patterns over and over again.  Though rumination is a normal human behavior, she ruminates so much that it's interfering with her life and relationships.

I think it might be helpful to frame therapy, not as something to fix the person, but rather as getting support to help to deal with past traumas.  I think it matters less what the "trauma" actually is, because at the end of the day, your daughter FEELS like she's experienced trauma, she's having trauma-like, fight-or-flight reactions to everyday stimuli.  She just needs extra support to get past her past.  My pwBPD seemed to like that framing, as it validated her perspective that she was traumatized by life.  She also warmed to the notion of getting help from professionals, perhaps because of the lack of "emotional baggage" associated with doctors, as opposed to parents or family.  Besides, the doctors know what to do, they deal with these sorts of cases all the time.  She's not the only person in the world feeling traumatized and getting help to move forward.  There are proven protocols for dealing with BPD, such as DBT, crisis planning, medications targetting associated issues (e.g. anxiety or depression) and others.

Another approach that my pwBPD seemed to like was the notion that getting therapy was the mature and responsible thing to do.  What does a responsible adult do when she's not feeling well?  She goes to the doctor and does what the doctor recommends, because the doctor is a professional and has seen this sort of thing hundreds of times.  It shouldn't matter if the ailment is physical, mental or a combination.  Taking care of yourself is the adult thing to do, right?  It means you love yourself, and you'll do what it takes to feel better.  She really liked that idea, because her main issue was a preoccupation with feeling childish, inferior and "behind" peers her age, as she found the stresses of "adulting" overwhelming.  Perhaps ironically, getting therapeutic help was perhaps the most adult decision she made, as well as a first step towards taking responsibility for herself and her life.  After years of blaming others and avoiding responsibility, in typical BPD fashion, getting therapy was a reversal, because she was finally taking responsibility.  I really like framing it that way too.

Just my two cents.

Hi all, it’s been a while and thank you all as always for the support over the past five years. Married lesbian, dbpdw, four kids now aged 1-6.

So, I’m a pianist and piano teacher and bpdw continues to be jealous of my ability to play the piano, to use this for pleasure and work… She has always said she wants me to teach her but 12 years together and she’s barely managed any lessons because she has no patience and calls me the worst teacher ever and storms off. We don’t have time anyway with the kids being so demanding and bpdw finds learning and focusing on anything difficult.

A few years ago bpdw’s sister asked me if I could teach her little girl to play the piano (bpdw’s niece). Bpdw announced “there’s no way that’s happening I won’t allow it.” When sil asked why bpdw said, “because she’s my niece and I should be the one to teach her”. Sil pointed out, “but you can’t play the piano” and bpdw said, “I’m learning”. Needless to say the lesson never happened. Bpdw has expressed to me even before we had the kids that she would never allow me to teach our kids. I think she’s ashamed that she can’t play or teach them.

Years ago I remember expressing concerns on here about how I would handle it if the kids ever asked me for lessons. Well the other day I was online teaching and D6 came over and asked me quietly if I could teach her to play a tune. I said, “shhh not right now” and reminded her, “Mama’s working.” She has not mentioned it since.

My wife has been much more mentally stable since attending college and meeting new people recently. But I fear her reaction and how I should handle it if D6 was to ask about piano either in front of bpdw or when she’s not around. I don’t want to teach D6 to walk on eggshells. I’m pulled towards avoided the issue forever, to protect D6 from Mummy’s reaction. I also know that I have to be strong for D6. Her Mama is a piano teacher and she wants to learn to play, and as long as she wants to learn from me I want to teach her. Of course I haven’t mentioned it to bpdw. I really need some advice kind people.