Hi Heretoheal,

Though she was invited, my BPD stepdaughter didn't come to our house for Thanksgiving.  I think she avoided us because some extended family members were visiting.  She just isn't ready to handle the stress of fielding well-meaning questions (How is the job search?  Are you working anywhere?  Are you seeing anyone?), because she's afraid of feeling judged.  On the other hand, I think she feels compelled to cling to her narrative that extended family members are "toxic."  And so she stayed away.  But the good news is, she didn't just ghost us like she usually does (complete silence with her is never a good sign).  For the first time ever, she called the day before to say she wouldn't be coming, and I really appreciate that courtesy because I can plan better for meals and sleeping arrangements.  Not only that, she called on Thanksgiving Day and took a couple of minutes to wish her relatives a happy day.  She said she was having a "Friendsgiving" with friends.  I think that's great--she's carving out an adult's life for herself.  Sure, it would have been nice for her to visit with family on Thanksgiving, as well as repair some relationships.  But I have patience and hold onto hope, especially when she's doing some "normal" things for a person her age.

My point is, it's fairly typical for young people to celebrate some holidays with their peers, especially when holiday travel is complicated and budgets are tight.  In other words, the situation with your daughter might not be as dire as it seems to you right now.  I know you're disappointed that she was absent during the holiday, and you worry that she's all alone (she might be), but by the same token, maybe she made other plans and didn't tell you.

I guess that one way I cope with all this is not to automatically assume the worst.  I try to assume that she's doing what she feels is best.  She felt she couldn't handle the pressure of Thanksgiving with family, but she wanted to celebrate her own way, and she did just that.  I think you might try thinking like that.  I often say to myself, "I'm not worrying about something that hasn't even happened yet."  I try to save my worrying for actual problems, not potential ones.  That's easier said than done.  But it can be comforting to do a reality check and reframe my perspective sometimes.

All my best to you.

First, BPDGrief, I can relate to some of the key events you noted.  We had our own homecoming weekend that went almost the same way. My kid finished school and is on their own, so that's a blessing.

But after a period of NC, the child came to Thanksgiving, didn't interact with me, but I believe seeing me amped everything up. We are back to hundreds of texts - blaming, name-calling, begging. I am sick to my stomach and have a raging headache. And I feel guilty for holding limits, but also realize I must hold limits or this will forever be my life. In a Family Connections class, our leader said, sometimes there are no GOOD choices, just choices. I really relate to that.

I’m recognizing patterns J has in looping her statements during arguments- often hijacking the entire conversation to repeat a perceived insult or hurt ad nauseam. 

Upon letting her vent her frustrations in several repetitive loops, she will take a pause (which never seems to be intended for me to even parrot or paraphrase to her my understanding of her position), she makes herself more and more angry at the situation- causing her memory of the situation to evolve into something that never existed remotely close to her understanding of how it happened.

I recognize that she is stuck on the emotional track- and she has trouble resolving the feelings she has- so she can’t change gears to also resolve the actual issue at hand.   

I’ve asked her what would help her to understand my recognition of my role in the argument or misunderstanding.   I also tried (and failed miserably) to explain that I have two problems in these cases- one- I misspoke or misinterpreted or misunderstood or said the wrong thing- and I am willing to apologize and take responsibility for that- but I ALSO want to clear up the confusion by correcting the misunderstanding to begin with.   

If I said “I’m going to the store to buy milk” and I meant “Creamer” (simplified hypothetical), I said the wrong thing and I still need to say “I said that wrong- I meant creamer”.  She doesn’t seem capable of understanding that the original situation still exists and needs rectifying- she interprets the correction to be “an excuse” or “I’m sorry I said that wrong BUT I want to make an excuse to get out of being wrong”.

Our situation today was because our dog was chewing on something and I wanted to know what she wanted me to do with it- we didn’t want to throw it away.   She claimed I said “I am going to throw it away unless you tell me immediately where to put it”.   I told her “I’m sorry I sometimes/often say the wrong words- I didn’t want to throw it away” and she claimed I can’t say “sorry I misspoke” and then change what I meant to say (which is ridiculous).   I told her “I want to take whatever responsibility for the misunderstanding- but I also want to resolve the issue and correct the miscommunication” and she seems to have absolutely NO recognition of that as a possibility.   In her mind, if you’re wrong about something you said, that’s it and there’s no resolving the conflict.

I can imagine a likelihood of her growing up in a household of black and white punishments/reward for original behaviors and zero tolerance for nuanced conflicts and rational thinking with two way communication and compromise- but that’s not my responsibility to her- I just want to find a way to give her the space to resolve or deal with her feelings and emotions- yet at some point communicate a correction to the situation at hand.

If this makes sense, any ideas?

My marriage broke up just over 2 years ago. I met someone around 3 months after the breakup, and there was instant chemistry.
However, as my relationship with my wife was 27 years long, both of us knew that jumping into a relationship was a big no go, but after a couple of months it was fairly evident that something would probably happen although neither of us said anything.

14 months later we got together. We have now been together for 9 months. We have our own lives, we both have two children, we both live in separate houses with the youngest of each children respectively. I have 3 dogs, she is scared of dogs so doesn’t come over, so I go over to see her., We don’t see each other every day.

We have not argued once. We both love and respect each other. She is happy, kind, caring. She says our relationship is easy, no stress, no drama, because I am so laid back and chilled. She has been in several relationships where she has felt controlled, and one relationship with someone that told her was diagnosed bpd and created drama. She is easy to talk to about anything and I don’t have to tread on eggshells like my previous relationship.

Now, because I was in the relationship for 27 years with my wife, who I believe has bpd although undiagnosed, I am used to the idealisation. I’m used to the constant phone calls, the constant texts (to give you some idea, she was discussing coming back home but said I hadn’t messaged her enough one evening, yet I counted over 120 texts between us) and the love bombing. Throughout our relationship I would like to think that I was emotionally stable (although she would say emotionally inept because I am not an over emotional wetwipe) and secure in myself and my relationship.

However now I am struggling a little bit with, I don’t know, whether it’s a fear of abandonment or just trying to adjust to a normal relationship. Because it isn’t as intense, there is no constant barrage of texts, and my gf is happy for me to have my own interests and hobbies, I can go and see my friends whenever I want, whereas with my wife I couldn’t even leave her to go to work without being given a guilt trip. My gf does however have a tendency to withdraw, as she has got a few family issues, her daughter has left to go travelling for a year and such like, so sometimes I will message her and not hear from her for hours as she has got things going around in her head that bothers her, but she assures me everything between us is ok, but because of my previous relationship dynamic, it worries me a little.

So I guess I’m wondering, those of you that have got into relationships after one with a bpd partner. Have you felt a fear of abandonment, or any other issues. Has some of the negative traits of the pwBPD rubbed off on you. Have you found it strange, adjusting to what seems like a normal healthy relationship from the rollercoaster ride you were used to.

I think our relationships are similar, from the posts of yours that I have read, and yes the “how can she do that to our family” is a big question that goes round and around in our heads. Particularly with my ex’s choice of new partner, their addictions, the fact that in 6 months time, all going well, she is going to be a grandmother yet her family won’t visit her because of her partner.

But I think the biggest thing is the betrayal. I expect most of us gave everything of ourselves to our bpd partners, and it feels so unjust that we are betrayed the way we were. A lot of us were more than likely accused of betraying them, of cheating on them, of many things that we didn’t do yet they would torment themselves with the thought that we had done, or were capable of doing that to them, and then go and do exactly that to us. That is what does for me, the how could you?

Hello all. Again thanks for all of the replies. We did not hear from my daughter at all. For the first time in her life I have no idea how she spent thanksgiving. I wasn’t sure if I should text her, if that would irritate her, so we settled for generic happy thanksgiving messages in a big family group chat. She didn’t respond or say anything. In reading your responses, I can identify with your college visit. We too had several uncomfortable experiences with college visits/ move outs, etc. Every roommate she has ever had has ended up with her never speaking to them again. She just cuts people off no problem and now seems to be doing the same with us. I too am in survival mode right now. I ramble awkwardly when people ask our holiday plans and just answer mostly about our other child who we will see. I am trying to keep busy and am working more than usual as it takes my mind off things for a bit. In Pilates last week the instructor was playing Christmas music and I couldn’t help it and the tears just came. Luckily no one saw as the lights were low. This week I seem to be a little less devastated. It comes and goes. But as Christmas approaches I feel so uncertain.

Hi there,

Just to follow up on some themes.

Regarding the new phone for your daughter, I'd say, let her keep her old one.  It's a luxury, not a necessity.  If your daughter is 13 or older and really wants a new phone, then she can do babysitting, dog walking, neighborhood yard work, extra chores or other age-appropriate jobs to earn the money for it.  A $1k phone is NOT in your family's budget right now.  I think it's not "cruel" at all to allow your daughter to work for what she wants.  I know I took on extra chores for an entire year, to save up enough money for my dream bicycle, which I purchased when I was a young teen.  I think I learned the value of hard work because of that.  And I can assure you, I really appreciated that bike, and I took exquisite care of it, too.

Regarding the feelings of entitlement, performative spending and lack of self-control in finances, I see evidence of that with the pwBPD and pwNPD in my life.  For example, my young adult BPD stepdaughter has spent thousands of dollars on elective cosmetic procedures whose results are invisible to me and her dad.  She prioritizes spending on cosmetic surgeries and other non-essentials, which detracts time, money and energy from what she should really be doing--namely, working.  (She's spending the money she got as a graduation gift, and the proceeds from selling the car her dad and I gave her.)  By the way, though she was diagnosed with BPD, her psychiatrist indicated she probably has narcissistic traits.

As for the upwNPD in my life (my ex-brother-in-law), I see a lot of similarities with your wife.  He is a compulsive spender.  The financial support he provides to his children puts them at the poverty line.  Meanwhile, he continues to order out all of his meals, and he buys so much stuff, he doesn't even know what he has ordered.  The imbalance of spending on himself vs. what he spends on his own children is so egregious that the family court actually pointed out the unfairness of the situation.  On top of that, he refused to participate in core parenting responsibilities, such as take his kids to their activities and doctor's appointments, and show up for parent-teacher conferences.  Meanwhile, he has lived in the marital home for six plus years, locking up my sister's equity.  He wouldn't qualify for a mortgage to buy her out of the house because he chooses to remain long-term unemployed (he lost his job a couple of weeks after he and my sister separated, and he never tried to find another one).  When the divorce ruling was made, he was supposed to put the house up for sale, and give my sister her share of the proceeds.  That was six months ago.  He hasn't been able to put the house on the market yet.  Why?  Because the realtor says he still has dozens of unopened boxes in the house of stuff he orderded online.  The realtor can't just throw his stuff away, especially if she doesn't know what it is.  But he is too lazy and/or disordered to sort through his purchases himself, or convince a family member to help him with that task.  My point being, his spending seems disordered, as he doesn't even bother to open his purchases . . .

That's a long-winded way of saying, maybe your spouse has a touch of NPD, and the excessive spending reflects a mix of lack of planning and self-control, plus entitlement, plus a need to project an image of superiority and status, no matter the cost to the family.  If that's the case, I think it's best you take control of what you can, to save yourself and your finances.  Relying on compliance from a disordered person who isn't in therapy is simply too unrealistic.  Even if their intentions are good, their insatiable needs override them.  I also wonder if they really know the difference between "needs" and "wants," because everything seems to be a "need" to them. 

Thanks for the responses and to be honest, I agree with most of what’s been responded from all of you…

As far as the HRT goes, that is definitely not the cause of her BPD symptoms. Unable to recognize that she has had symptoms throughout our relationship, ranging in severity. I mean, I absolutely recall having a lot of thoughts, especially about her sense of entitlement and ridiculous expectations when it came to money many years before her hysterectomy. At the time, I was so locked in my trauma responses I just constantly gave in. There were other things, the inability to be alone and fear of abandonment has been there throughout. The HRT I would say has exacerbated symptoms. It’s almost like putting some gasoline on the fire. But the fire is absolutely there regardless.

Gems - I’ll DM you because I’m absolutely interested in getting advice if you have any on paying down the debt…

CC43 - you hit a pretty spot on. And I pretty much agree with that assessment. Even if she agrees to something right now, it still gonna require long-term follow-through and self-control, which she doesn’t have. The only way a plan would work as if she really agreed to it which include an accountability and us looking at things every month. And again this is all pie in the sky stuff because I really don’t think she’s gonna go along with it. The end of the day, the only way I think it would work is if she agreed to have a personal account that her personal money was transferred to and that’s what she got to spend, and everything else was transferred out and considered not touchable. But again, I’d be less surprised to see pigs fly.

Notwendy - I really don’t expect her to react well but I figure if there is any chance of a slightly different interaction, it’s going to be now before her HRT. Of course it’s still kind of laughable because even if she agrees with something or doesn’t have a meltdown, her feelings and actions may change in the next weeks and months.

Unfortunately, even cutting out the non-essentials I really can’t make ends meet and pay down debt and save if I don’t have some sort of even minimal contribution from her that she’s making right now. As they say it’s better than nothing…

It’s really awful that I’m even having to make these decisions. It really does hit for me how it’s more like I’m dealing with a child than another adult. Long-term even making these changes I know it’s not sustainable. I’m not holding out a lot of hope, I’m just trying to make steps that I think are the best for our family and I’m going to control what I have control over. I mean, if it stays how it is long-term, then I think it really puts into question the viability of the relationship. I’ve made it very comfortable for her throughout our marriage, being codependent and having a fawn response. So I am also trying to take a level of responsibility for myself and my actions. I’ve let this continue for a long time without putting up solid boundaries or taking the steps. I definitely feel I owe it to myself and the marriage to at least take these next strong steps. Either the uncomfortableness will force her to make some changes, or it won’t. I’m definitely not blaming myself, but I am taking responsibility for my share of this, I in fact, don’t expect the conversation to go well. I don’t expect her to make changes, but I have to say the words and I actually have to follow through this time.

Wendy, just another thing on your response and talking about your mother and I’ve seen things you’ve written in the past. It honestly sounds like a lot of parallels with my wife. She’s definitely has a sense of entitlement. She uses a lot of phrases like she deserves XYZ. She definitely puts herself up on a pedestal. But yeah, no concept of finances. We even had a new thing come up this week where first she suggested we buy our daughter a new phone and just do a payment plan (which is essentially a three year payment so another thousand dollars in debt…) during the same sentence she talked about a medical bill that she’s gonna have to pay when she goes in for hormone therapy because she basically decided to stop paying her doctor. The agreed monthly fee that she was supposed to pay him for 8+ months. And she just cavalierly, said she might have to put it on a credit card… but I do have a lot of concerns long-term and the next months, this conversation and what happens really in the next three, six, 12 months is going to guide a lot of of my next decisions. I think I’ve mentioned before that we have an adult child with special needs. It’s very concerning for me because when I talked about, even trying to save up for his future, she just blows it off and says vague things like her family’s gonna make sure he’s taken care of, but there’s no plan. I’m pretty certain I’m gonna have to take the next steps of doing things like setting up a trust for my son and changing my life insurance beneficiaries so most of the money goes into a trust and not to her. I mean, I haven’t figured out if it’s half of the money or most of it but I’m gonna be doing a state planning for my son in case something happens to me or us. But at this point I 100% do not trust that if I passed away, and my wife got the substantial life insurance on me that there would be anything left in Five or 10 years, let alone when my son would need it later in life 

Thanks all

The money issues related to my mother's spending were long standing. I could not fully understand what drove her to doing this. I asked one of her nurses (when she was in assisted living) if she'd seen anything like this- and she thought it was on the level of addiction, uncontrollable. People will gamble, drink, shop, use drugs, even to the point of harm with these and BPD mother also spent to that point.

I think there was more to it though. BPD mother had a huge need for affirmation. She also had a sense of entitlement. This was an NPD aspect of her disorder. That the rules didn't apply to her. I could not imagine spending so much money that my spouse would be having financial stresses. I think your wife is aware that the money is uneven, I think my mother was too but I think this was one way she could feel special or cared for.

The idea of changing the fancy dinners out for a home cooked meal did not work with BPD mother. She seemed to like expensive things.

Mostly the money issues were my father's problem. We kids were still cared for- our basic needs were met. We had food, clothes, education. We didn't feel entitled to our parents' money but we also were aware of the stress over it and knew to not ask Dad for much.

When my father got ill, I became concerned about how BPD mother would handle the finances. I offered to help manage it. BPD mother refused and  told people I was forcing her to give me financial information. Since this felt like a threat to my own integrity, I backed away. BPD mother kept her financial information confidential. We had no idea about what she did with it.

Where this got difficult for me was that she later made me POA. I agreed because I felt it was safer for her to do so. She tended to trust strangers over her own family. It was better if family had access to her finances. However she still kept it all secret. I had no idea where her money was or what she had. We knew my father had planned for their retirement and left her a significant amount, we didn't know what or where. It was concerning because, if she needed me to act as her POA, I'd have no idea how to do that. I asked her several times- but she refused.

Some time later, we found a paper at her home that was a home equity loan. She had spent almost everything left to her and was spending down the value of her home.  We moved her to assisted living, sold the house, put the rest into her bank accounts and she promptly began overly spending it too. Since she was legally competent, none of us could stop her.

I understood then why my father couldn't stop her either. Your situation is different- my father earned the money in the family. With your dual incomes, if you control your part- she may not like it but she has her own income to spend if she likes. I agree with CC43 that the aspect you can control is your income. Your BPD wife already knows what she's doing probably isn't OK- but she does it anyway.

When you speak to your wife- make it about you, not her. Saying things like "I love you but I can't afford all the fancy dinners" and cut those out. Cut some of your own expenses too. This is standard advice. You do like Dave Ramsey with your money. Your wife will do what she does with hers. The money you save should go in an account that is only in your name, to protect it.

As to the LLC, eventually she will have to provide you access for tax time. If she's done that before, then she will likely do it again. If she refuses then, simply say you can't do the taxes without the information, she will need to file separatetly. File for an extention and then you can dissolve the LLC. But chances are when she actually has to give it to you, she probably will, but not before then.

I still think about my ex frequently, mainly, "How could she do that to our family?"  Like everyone else here, I've realized clearly that my life is much better off without her destructive tendencies.  I don't want her back, I don't want anything to do with her.  But the betrayal still stings at times and I'm not sure why.  It's been about 3 years now.

For me, the answer I ultimately came to is that it's okay to love someone that did something horrible to you.  Throughout the breakup, I was kind and patient...and so many would call that weakness.  But it's okay to actually be the bigger person and show kindness to someone mentally ill.  Heck, if everyone did it, the world would be a much better place.  So I don't think it's wrong to question the past at times and wonder about where things went sideways.