I think this is an important point. BPD affects the most intimate relationships the most, so the dynamics would be more with the intimate partner and immediate family. Living all together in one home would increase the face to face contact between family members. It also affects the partner and family members in that it is harder to maintain boundaries under pressure when in th the same space.

I agree with the concept of "not fighting back" during a verbal accusation. In the moment, the pwBPD believes this and to try to defend onself raises the drama. If it does no good, then there's no point in doing this. The techniques such as JADE can help bring the drama down. If one can sincerely say "I love you and I'm here for you" in the moment, that possibly works too but I think only if one can sincerely mean it as it would be hard to have that come across if one didn't.

I think everyone would wish to be seen as "good" by their partner or family member, but sometimes this role can land on the Karpman triangle. Also, since we can not change someone's thinking, someone can be split- good or bad, according to how the pwBPD feels in the moment, and isn't about something another person can do or say.

In my own situation, knowing I could be split as either in the good position or the persecutor one, I didn't consider this outcome as any measure of me. I could visit and do things for BPD mother and she might still find something to not be pleased with. I had to stay firm in knowing that- however she responded didn't change the intent or action on my part.

BPD mother could be nicer and more "normal" with people who are not as close to her, because, she also had the closer family members with whom she did act out more. Someone could be in "good" position, when someone or something else was in persecutor position.

Being in good position is helpful in that there's some leverage there if the pwBPD needs help with something. My BPD mother's extended family was in "good position".  BPD mother was more likely to be receptive to their advice than mine.

I also was able to hold boundaries better than my father and recognized that he lived with her, and I didn't. So I do believe proximity makes a difference for both people.

In my situation, I don't think I got into many arguments with BPD mother or "fought back". As kids, we weren't allowed to do that. I also at some point decided it was useless. I did yell at her one time, during my father's illness when I was stressed over the situation, and seeing her reaction- I just didn't want to do that again.

Your updates are heartbreaking, but at least it has led to positive steps for your home and your kids.  He clearly crossed a line and if he can't see it (which isn't unusual for mental illness) then he shouldn't be around. 

Maybe this is the thing that helps him realize that things have to change.  Maybe not.  But either way, you've done the right thing by saying "No thank you" to his abuse.

As far as the email accusations go, I would think you'd want to cut that off after sending a very clear message.  You didn't call the police because of your friends.  You called them because he was out of control and you've put up with his abusive behavior for far too long.  Now is the exact time to make that crystal clear...while he's out of the house and trying to win you back.

You might even want to list some of the regular stuff that's out of bounds- slamming doors, the complaining and attitudes, etc.  Now is the ideal time to put all of that in one email, then let him know that if he can't respect these boundaries, you'll block email as well.  It will not be used as a way to abuse you even further.

How are you doing?  What do you need right now?  Talk it out a little more.

After weeks of upda and downs- more like a month, we are now on limited contact.  I went on holiday with a friend and the whole time I was there he was love bombing me , telling me how much I mean to him etc.  He stayed at mine, got to payday- tried to have a non-confrontational conversation about if he'd be staying. 

He did stay , paid a portion of the month.  We even booked a trip together (a week this Saturday).  Everything was okay other than when I went to see friends.  In the short 2 weeks between booking the holiday he had kicked off more or less everytime I went to meet friends , or wasnt back in the time frame he's hoped.

My kids are sick of him shouting and banging doors and behaving like an overgrown toddler.

a week ago yesterday I called the police, my son was home, He was having a tantrum over a perceived rejection (it was the anniversary of my mum passing away, he was being silly and goofy with me and I just said I wasnt in the mood and just wanted to sit quietly watching TV. He lost it, the baked potatoes we bought for dinner he threw and smashed all over the floor, threw the dogs bowl of water over me and was yelling.  Enough was enough, I called the police and they removed him (he wasnt arrested at that point and I havent pursued a complaint at this time.

I have blocked him on everything other than email , he was intoxicated and says he "can't remember" anything and is going to "get help"

As far as I was aware he was already under therapy- I've asked for clarification and he's been fairly vague .  I pointed him in the direction of the Respect helpline UK for the abusive behaviour and that's not been an avenue he feels he needs to purse (it 100% is because he is abusive)

I've said I cannot have his instability around my children and any contact is contingent on seeking help and continual behavioural change, not vague reassurances because my trust is too damaged.  He has been abusive many times and promises are short lived .  I'm sure I'll be a c**t again tomorrow, he's just too unstable to deal with.

I cannot see this vacation being enjoyable or safe for me so I'll just have to write off the money and make other plans.

I am drained , he sent me a long email about other people getting involved in our relationship (my friends) being a problem, but the only issue there is they don't like how he treats me.  He refers to them as "the club" and says I keep getting advice from "the club.   No I just dont want to be abused!

Thanks for your reply.

I am well aware of how my FOO has shaped me....alcoholic father, sometimes violent. Codependent and quite reserved mother, but also the one who worked like crazy to protect her six children.

I met my first wife when I was in a Christian phase of my life.  She was an incest victim in her childhood, raised in an environment of drugs and gambling.  She turned to the Church, and stayed faithful through several miscarriages, our separation and her eventual death from breast cancer.

I learned so much from her about kindness, and forgiveness, and gratitude.  I never stopped loving her, but living with her became too difficult.  We were arguing a lot, we were deep in debt, she had not worked for several years and there was a cycle of increasing violence that needed to be interrupted.  We never had children, which was a source of great pain for her.  The truth is that the most painful part of the miscarriages was seeing how much pain it caused her.

After I moved out, I lived alone for more than 10 years.  I was able to rediscover some of the things that I had let go of, like skiing, and camping, and I had a couple of meaningful relationships with women that helped me gain confidence in myself but ultimately failed.  I also did a lot of work on myself during that period, with help from authors like John Bradshaw, Robert Bly and Joseph Campbell.

Years later, I left the US and started over in South America.  I met a wonderful woman who I eventually married.  Her childhood was marked more by neglect than overt abuse.  She was (and still is) a hard worker, supporting her mother and her daughter.  She has always had a turbulent relationship with her daughter and more recently has had some serious emotional outbursts at work.  She has been in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for more than a year and practices mindfulness exercises.

I am not considering separation, but I do want to develop and practice better strategies for managing my own emotions and also supporting my wife on her journey.

I think that's a comparable analogy in that the outcome can be harmful whether motive. The consequence is considered with the safety of society in mind- is this person a danger to others along with a deterrent to the behavior. The judge and the penal system has this power.

Where this differs is that BPD behaviors aren't necessarily technically crimes. Some are- such as physical abuse, but lying, cheating on a partner-there's no legal recourse, or power. The consderation becomes our own selves, our own emotional, physical, and financial safety.

Of interest- I was concerned for my BPD mother in her elder years. She had difficulty with making reasonable decisions. Family members were also concerned and wanted me to seek legal advice for this and from her health care providers. Even with her behaviors, she was considered legally competent in the medical and legal sense, so I could not intervene at all, even if I thought it would have been in her best interest.

In addition, we have the choice when it comes to a romantic relationship- even without there being anything wrong with the other person. Someone could be a great person- just not a good fit for you. Given the choice, you don't have to choose between motives for behavior, you can choose to not get involved with someone who you see has these behaviors.

Hi AlwaysAnxious
Thanks for your post. I think it’s really helpful to have actual examples – and I have given these a lot of thought.

I ended up working backwards.

It ends with you being totally to blame for causing her to take her life. She sets a scene where you are waking up to this and the consequences for you.

Or the other path would be DD spelling out that she may as well end her life because you don’t care about her in any way. Once again, you are to blame. It is very interesting that DD has blocked off your ability to call 911 because she explicitly says that she will do it without you knowing.

It seems as though the trigger is that you attempt to draw a line in the sand when DD is yelling abuse etc. You try to be just a little assertive – and that opens another avenue of blame etc for DD.

I really smiled when I came to the words ‘It’s all about you – I can’t tell you how many times I have heard those words when I have tried to assert even some other fact than the one my DD is presenting.

I think it is this moment that needs looking at as far as your response goes. Personally I disagree with the therapist in that I think it is predictable how things will go if we intervene with these kinds of statements. I mean intervening in such a huge emotional process.

Things changed for me when I finally realised that all the verbal abuse and blame etc was not about me at all! Once I realised that this is what BPD looks like and my DD was in a total emotional meltdown, that her sense of self couldn’t handle the experience and I was just a safe target to dump on. So years ago I told DD that when she was having strong emotions I would not engage much because it wasn’t fair to her – she needed time to allow the emotions to reset.

I followed through with that – apart from affirmation if I felt it would help and be appropriate. It has been much better and I have appreciated the couple of times DD has said how she hates dumping on me, or telling me to give her space because she is feeling like she is going to dump on me.

To let these outbursts take their course is quite challenging – and believe me my DD’s outbursts against me are just shocking! It is true we can only work on our part in things and I think to focus on yourself is the best solution ie working on things such as:

-   How developed is my own sense of self?
-   What is behind the response I feel to DD’s words? Do I really think I would be responsible? Have I ‘let go’ to the extent where I can see my ‘self’ and life as separate from DD’s
-   Can I hold my sense of self when all this is being thrown at me?
-   Do I know, deep down in my heart, that should DD act on these words that I would not be responsible?

My journey with my DD and BPD has shifted over the many years from desperately wanting to help DD have a happier, more fulfilled life to seeing that all this is a challenge to me – my need to let go, to value my life too – and to know that I can’t really change anyone but myself. This is how I love my DD.

I am not sure all this makes sense but it has been helpful for me.

To put it another way, leaning on the murder/ manslaughter analogy: the intentionality that I perceive uBPDx having, is much more on the 'manslaughter' side of things than 'murder'. But regardless, I need to stay away if I don't want to end up dead.

(I don't mean to treat the analogy in a flippant way - I think it does illustrate something - but apologies if it comes across like that).

PeteWitsend, as I have read, BPD was so named because it exists on the borderline between psychosis and neurosis, with psychosis being completely factually distorted perceptions of reality (eg., seeing or hearing things that are not there) and neurosis being intense emotional states causing distress (but not fully losing touch with reality).

It is clear uBPDx is not in full psychosis. He is able to lie and to withhold information to obtain a desired result, i.e., hiding his cheating. He is also highly intelligent and articulate in certain professional settings. At times, he has appeared to feel extreme shame for his actions, which means he is aware of them. In that sense, he is responsible.

Yet I think there is also a distortion of reality that is not quite the same as pure calculated lying. For one thing, the lies aren't very strategic - lies to do with cheating, money and other things that are externally verifiable, or bound to be found out over time. They are reactive, desperate and somewhat stupid.

In the legal system and various philosophical systems there is a spectrum of intentionality, from things you did when you were of sound mind and had considered clearly and in advance, to things you did voluntarily but on the spur of the moment, to things you did involuntarily or under compulsion. That's why there's a difference between murder and manslaughter (and lots of other classifications to do with pre-meditation).

From what I can tell, uBPDx 'acts out' when he is in an emotional state that seems overwhelming or unbearable to him at the time. Whether it's cheating because he wants validation, misappropriating money because he has no self control (yeah, that's something that's come out) - his acts are despicable but I think not planned in advance with the absolute maximum level of intentionality. Otherwise surely he'd plan it better and say things that are less ridiculous. (When not dysregulated, he is a highly intelligent person).

Then, instead of facing the consequences of his actions, he panics and lies to make the bad impact go away, even though he must know it will blow back on him later.

Maybe a better comparison than schizophrenia is something like alcoholism. uBPDx's addiction is to validation because there is a gaping hole inside himself. Like many alcoholics, he 'drinks' (lies, cheats, manipulates) because in the moment, he cannot stop. When you talk about him lying 'compulsively' I think you're seeing the same dynamic. Then he tries to cover it up, and it gets worse.

The vile behaviours I'm describing in this post here come largely from the end of the relationship, but the emotional manipulations from earlier in the relationship I think also fit the same pattern.

So, he's distressed (and I still believe much of his suicidal ideation reflected genuine distress). He needs an emotional 'fix' from me, therefore, he manipulates me with suicidal words and threats (neurosis) so that I give him the emotional reaction he wants. It's voluntary in the sense that he exists in reality and knows what he is doing - he's not talking to poles or trees in the street. It's involuntary in that, like an addict, he really feels like he cannot live without the emotional fix that I provide.

This seems like both sickness and intention to me, but if you see this as full intention and don't like the word 'unwell', that's also valid.

You are better off without her.


She told elaborate lies about something really serious (the death of a friend) and even faked pictures. This was not a person living in a stable reality. There was nothing you could have done to build a strong relationship on these shaky premises.

That your ex has married and appears to have a stable marriage - in contrast to your own known experience with her - that's a signal that you don't really know how stable their relationship truly is.

On the one hand, he may be just as clueless about her mental health issues as you had been back when you had met her.  That's likely because he believed her claim that you were stalking her.  (People with BPD traits typically describe all their prior relationships as awful and even claim they were victimized.)

On the other hand he might have his own issues, whether codependency and gullibility, or might have his own serious issues that somehow mesh with your ex and may last longer than you'd expect, given your own experience.

Whichever the case, count your blessings that the discord and dysfunction is in the past.  Meanwhile, do Gift yourself time to recover... avoid too-quick rebound relationships... figure out your own Closure (gift it to yourself) and let that settle and resonate for a bit first.

There is a possibility that your comfort zone in selecting a partner may be skewed, perhaps shaped by your childhood FOO (family of origin).  Now that you are more aware of deeply-impacting PDs and how serious mental health issues can be, you can take a look at yourself and choose your future relationships with open eyes and better perception and perspective.