The part about depression and having someone around making life more bearable really stayed with me.

For me it wasn’t only about loneliness. Being in a relationship gave my life a kind of structure. It felt like something to move toward. Before that, I sometimes felt like I was drifting a bit.

That relief was real. It filled something that felt empty at the time.

Looking back, I can see that I probably needed to build more of that stability inside myself. If I’d done more self-work earlier, maybe I wouldn’t have leaned so hard on the relationship to provide it. At the same time, that relationship is what eventually forced me to look at those gaps. I don’t think I would have done the work otherwise.

So I don’t see it as weakness. I see it as part of how I learned.

I think it's perfectly natural to look back and wonder why we stayed so long, or perhaps what we missed that could have avoided putting us in these situations.

For me, I seriously thought about breaking up with my ex-wife shortly before we became engaged.  And I realize how strange of a statement that seems, but something felt so off and I couldn't put a finger on what it was.  My ex was manic for most of the time we dated and was always so happy, so energized by life.  Yet when something went wrong and we had a disagreement, there was never resolution.  She'd defend herself, get angry and detached, and it would stay that way until I apologized.

One topic I remember was a college Trig class we had together.  She refused to study, to learn the equations, and I was like...we're going to fail if we don't prepare.  But she couldn't take it seriously and couldn't understand why it upset me. 

Little things like that were glaring red flags that I saw yet ignored.  Why?  Because I loved her, and I loved her family.  I wanted it to work despite what my brain was telling me.

Why'd we last so long?  It was the same as the Trig class over and over again...I'd try to make boundaries, she's become hysterical while playing the victim, and I'd apologize while backing off.  I let go of all my natural instincts and morals to adapt to her life in order for us to be happy.  Yet in the end, it still wasn't enough.

The part I quoted above, why you need to put yourself first, doesn't mean to life a selfish, closed-off live.  Instead, it means to be true to your own moral compass and don't let others pull you off that path.  Putting yourself first means to focus on what you can actually control- your health, your wellbeing, your goals and desires in life. 

Doing so will benefit you physically and mentally, and in turn make you a more balanced person when challenges do occur.

Hi there, thanks for relating to what I wrote. Yeah, one of the things that actually spurred me into considering leaving the relationship was an old scribbling of mine that I found. I was going to get rid of some books and found a journal entry of sorts, scrawled in the blank pages at the back of a book, detailing how confused and hurt I felt after a conflict with my partner. I journal quite a bit, but I didn't write about the tough points in our dynamic very often (which I now see as avoidance, obviously).  Anyway, having the old writing of mine helped confirm that I'd felt this way in the marriage for a while. In the last four months, I also started keeping track of when we'd fight.

My partner was more inwards with her expressions of BPD symptoms, but I remember before I got a better grasp on what was going on, we would have talks about our relationship where I'd ask that things please just get easier. I see now that such a phrasing probably activated her. After, it could've gone that she'd gaslight me into thinking our dynamic was healthy and manageable, but honestly I don't remember. I do remember praying that things between us wouldn't feel like they were constantly teetering on the edge of a cliff.

Hi Pain and Love,

My advice for you right now regarding your wife is not to do any sort of outreach or invite contact.  In my opinion, the ball is in her court.  I think it would be best to wait and see what she does.  And the emphasis is on the word DOES, rather than pay much attention to what she says, as words are cheap.  She shouldn't accuse you of "not caring" and "not reaching out" because you are respecting the restraining order.

I think you wait until the hearing.  If she owns up to what she did, shows genuine remorse and demonstrates that she has been getting some therapy, that would be a start.  I think SHE should be the one to make a proposal, not you.  In other words, if you ask to resume contact, then it seems like you are the one who wants to get back together, not her--and she'd probably take you up on the offer because she's used to other people caring for her needs, not because she has any real intention to work on her own issues.

As for how she's doing right now, my guess is that she's fine.  My other guess is she's trying to get other people to take care of her.  I imagine that she's twisting the story and trying to convince the world (and herself) that you're at fault for the incident.  I really hope that's not the case, and that she's reflecting, feeling uncomfortable, feeling remorseful and lining up therapy appointments to get the help she needs to turn her life around.  I think the situation could go either way--either she doubles down on her victim attitude, or she takes the incident as a wake-up call.  Let her be the one who shows you how things will play out.

I'd advise patience.  Think of it as a "time out."  I often advise on these boards, do NOT interrupt the time out.  She'll come back when she's ready.  And then you'll see what she's been up to.  But most of all, she has to make the effort.  Not you.  My guess is that historically, you have been the one to try to make the relationship to work, you have been the one to put in all the effort.  But know this:  you can't "save" her, "fix" her or manage her volatile emotions.  She is the one with BPD, she threatened violence and she brought on the restraining order.  She owns the problem, but she also owns the solution.  She has to make the effort, not you.  So I think you should do nothing right now, except to focus on self care.

If she shows up to the hearing blaming you for provoking the incident, that will be very telling indeed.  I've been to one of those hearings, and the judge ruled to extend the restraining order.

If you're really concerned about your wife's welfare, my guess is that if she were in trouble, you would know, because somebody (a family member, a friend/roommate, doctor or police officer) would notify you.

Thanks for the recent replies and suggestions!!  I am not trying  to rush through the process.  I understand the gravity of the situation and am not minimizing the gun incident.  I also have a very clear memory of what the last 13 years have consisted of, expecially the last 3 years.  The have been hell.  I am in zero rush to take her back, and know that I need time to heal and she needs time to try and get herself sorted.  I'm not yet positive if I want a divorce or not, but I do know that if she does not do any of the treatment or therapy I will ask for a divorce.  If she shows that she is getting treatment, her behaviors improve (over a period of time, not instantly) I may consider a gradual reintegration back into a normal marriage situation.   My focus right now is on me.

About the restraining order.  After a lot of thought, I do not regret getting it.  The situation that created the need for the TRO, was valid.  What she did was way beyond the realm of normal behavior and could have ended very badly for one or both of us.  I also hope its an exclamation point and catalyst for her to get help.  It also enabled both of us to get away from eachother. 

The reason why I am leaning towards digital communication is that without it and zero contact with her, how will I know if she is getting help and getting better?  I mean, we have our court date coming up and maybe she'll tell the judge what she is doing as far as treatment.  But the outcome of the court date (I think) is for the judge to transition the temporary restraining order to a more permanent one.  If it is a permanent one with no contact, how would I know if she is changing? 

  This is my 1ST time visiting this site. I have a 32-year-old daughter with BPD.
She blew up again 5 weeks ago, told me to never contact her again. My issue is that she will not allow me to see my 2 1/2-year-old grandson that I am very close to. It is breaking my heart & I'm sure he is confused. I just don't know what to do. I have tried reaching out but she replies by sending nasty & verbally abusive emails. She has blocked me from her phone. Any suggestions?

As an aside, I recall one time years before we got divorced when I mentioned that we were fighting a lot and that I was keeping track of it, BPDxw got really upset by that and kept focusing on it and demanding that I stop.  and for a long time after that, would bring up the fact that I had been keeping a journal and on demand to know if I was still doing it.  In fact, I noticed that if she picked a fight over something, she would completely forget about whatever she had ostensibly been mad about in the first place, and focus on the fact that I was keeping a journal of our fights. 

Eventually I just started lying to her and saying I stopped keeping a journal and was focused on making our marriage better, out of hopes she would stop picking fights over it so much (or picking fights in general).  This was futile of course, since her whole M.O. was to just pick fights. 

I wondered if this extreme concern about journaling was driven by simple paranoia on her end, or whether it revealed that she was intentionally trying to control the relationship by picking fights, and was concerned that by tracking it, it was exposing her?  I don't know!  I suppose it could've been both. 

In the end, her focus on the journaling undermined whatever point she was trying to make, and underlined to me that her goal was simply to fight: the fighting was the end in and of itself, and the basis for a fight didn't actually matter to her.  I started journaling fights to try to understand what the problem was, whether there was something in common with them, whether our marriage was as miserable as it felt to me, and I succeeded, but not in the way I expected. 

I'd echo what Mutt said (which it sounds like you're doing) in your update: you don't have to do everything in one big step.  Break things into smaller steps and think them through.  Hopefully this also "feels good."  When I was married to BPDxw and miserable, thinking of how I'd get my own place, what I'd do, what I'd buy, how I'd arrange things, etc. was a relief and gave me some hope for the future. 


For me, creating a simple journal of how often we'd fight, or not be on speaking terms (silent treatment), and what the fights were about helped me see how lousy our relationship was, and yet how secure she felt treating me like that.  She would insist (quite angrily, which was ironic) that we did not fight a lot, or fight "too much" and that "all couples fight" and was apparently okay with the dynamic.  When I went back and looked at months I had been telling myself "were better" or "things had been better" I was personally surprised to see that even in those months we were either fighting or not talking close to half the time.  I'm talking about entire weeks.  And the fights were always about nonsense: one month it was because I got a bunch of work emails in the middle of the day on my phone and this made her think I was having an affair.  Another month, she was angry I didn't send "enough" pictures of her to my mom because I knew my mom hated her and this showed I was closer to my mom than my wife.  Ugh. 

I realized from all this I was more of an optimist, or maybe better at putting my head in the sand than I realized.  When I'd think back and remember what I was thinking in the midst of being on the receiving end of some unhinged screamfest from her, it was "I need to get out of this, this is miserable, no one should treat me like this, I truly despise her for doing this to me for years and want out." 

And so I finally drew my line in the sand, and after the next blow up (again, over nothing), I refused to take some degree of responsibility for it, and when she threatened divorce because of that, I said "okay" and followed my plan of moving out and filing for divorce. 

Hi again,

My inclination would be not to ask for digital communication.  I think that would have the effect of minimizing, maybe even "normalizing," what your wife did.  With her emotional thinking patterns, she could take your outreach as either an admission of guilt, or a recognition that things weren't as dangerous and toxic as they really were.

Look, the pwBPD in my life attempted suicide multiple times.  Each time was more serious than the last.  Her dad, operating in a FOG of fear, obligation and guilt, didn't want to have to take her to the hospital AGAIN.  Why?  She doesn't like the hospital, she thinks she's fine, she thinks that other people are to blame, and she wants to resume her "normal" life as soon as possible.  And he couldn't bear to admit that his precious daughter was not OK.  But by NOT going to the hospital, her feedback loop is:  she gets what she wants by threatening violence, the threats become "normalized" and seemingly "acceptable" to her family, and she convinces herself that her family is to blame for her outburst.  This extremely distorted thinking pattern brought on by out-of-control emotions is typical of BPD.  And since the loved ones around her are bending over backwards to "protect" her from the natural consequences of her own behaviors, she's learning the OPPOSITE of what she should be learning.  She should be learning that violence and threats of violence are verbotten.  She should be learning that her life is too precious to put it in jeopardy.  She should be learning that actions have natural consequences.  She should be learning that suicide threats and attempts need to come off the table, and stay off.  She should be learning healthier ways to manage her emotions and resolve conflicts.  She needs to learn to play fair.

But in her world, her partners/parents keep on contorting the "rules of the game."  Of course they mean well, and everything is in the name of protecting her, in the name of LOVE.  But by shielding her from natural consequences, she isn't living in the "real world," she's living in a distorted, unhealthy world where abuse of others is tolerated, maybe even incentivized.  You ask, how is she incentivized?  She might get money, attention, concessions, your begging for forgiveness.  She might get confirmation of the victim narrative she's weaving.  She might get to experience the drama she craves.  The pwBPD in my life basically got a luxury apartment all to herself, an extended vacation with no responsibilities, free time to travel and endless spending money.  Those sort of perverse incentives need to stop, if you want to have some seblance of a healthy life.

Again, I think the situation isn't necessarily the worst that could happen.  Maybe with time, the notion will start to sink in that your wife needs some therapy to work through her traumas and/or chaotic emotions.  Alas, she might need to feel uncomfortable to make that realization, because she needs to reflect and see that she has to do some work to improve her life, relationships and coping skills.  I think it can be done.  But if you enable the status quo (letting her get away with threats of violence), my guess is that she'll only up the ante in the future.  Take it from me, I had to live with an emotional terrorist in my home for YEARS.  Things do not get better without treatment, they get worse.  Your wife's behavior got her a RESTRAINING ORDER, that is serious.  Please don't try to minimize it by blaming yourself for "provoking" her, and trying to reach out to assure her it's OK, because it's not in my opinion.

Look, I think you need to be strong so that your wife gets the help she desperately needs.  Going easy on her might make you feel better, but it's not helping her, it's enabling her in my humble opinion.  If you want to feel better, I think you should focus on self-care right now.  Try to reconnect with family and friends, if you have neglected them because your wife has been needy.  I think if you do that, you might come out of the FOG and start to see things with clarity.

Just my two cents.  I wish you all the best.

Hi all,

Today I feel the want to more deeply look at how I participated in my last relationship and stayed so long, even though it was intense beyond my capabilities. How do y'all think about the way your own personal histories, tendencies, and wants in a relationship wove together with a pwBPD?

Here are some I'm thinking about for myself. I wonder if any of them resonate with y'all:

  - Many people on here talk about being a caretaking type, and I am definitely that. I prided myself on being able to
do a "difficult relationship", which I think got in the way of me seeing that I really wasn't as able as I thought.

  - I was the quiet, calm child in my family's system, who took care of herself. I ended up on the sidelines of family
conflicts, and perversely wanted to be included in the yelling and screaming, just to feel a part of things still.

  - I hadn't been in a relationship longer than 1.5 years before I met my pwBPD. As our relationship continued, I figured that it was difficult because I just hadn't done a longer one before. I found it really hard to get insight into what would be considered "healthy" or "normal". Also, there's so much societal conditioning telling us that a romantic partnership is necessary and key. All of that meant that I  pushed past doubts and pain to keep staying. Of course, I also really wanted to believe my partner when she promised that things would calm down.

  - I value the interesting people that I get to meet in this life. My wife was and is one of them. I have a hard time
saying goodbye to these precious connections, in the event they need to end. I never understand it when people say that you need to live for yourself. I get that I need to take care of myself, but live just for myself? Seems disconnected.

  - I let romance drive a lot of forward motion in my life. I don't necessarily value more traditional milestones, like a successful career, for example, which for me means that I'm more interested in feeling the movement of life, the mystery and chance of it. On the negative end, this manifests as a lack of direction, which partly led me to allowing myself to be subsumed in an intense relationship. Whoops.

  - I have depression, and having another person around can make life more bearable.

Okay, that's all for now! Would love to hear y'alls reflections on this topic.