Hi campbembpd,

I admire you for having all of the energy and disposition to do this secretly while still pretending to be cooperative with her. However, it seems like there is one big mistake that you're about to make.

Like ForeverDad said, you should be ready for total havoc to happen after she gets to know your plans. Giving yourself the paperwork for her is likely to put yourself at risk. You should be prepared for the worst reactions, and that could include literally putting the house on fire. But the easiest path is to physically attack you and then call the police on you, claiming you have done domestic violence, and then get you removed.

Are you expecting anything different from that? Are you expecting her to cooperate and just sign the papers? Well, most likely, cooperation only happens when your spouse finds herself completely out of options and about to see the worst, such as losing custody of kids. But yet it will still not be worth it to make any dal, because she is most likely not going to comply with whatever you have agreed on. You should expect to be painted black and be turned into her target.

The interesting thing is that you probably already know all of what I just said, but unconsciously you might be expecting something different? Think about it; what are you expecting to happen? Some sort of miracle? Would you wish she would change, saving you from going through with the divorce? In these moments, you should try to let go of hopes like this, which can't be justified.

If by any chance you want to save the marriage, you must first create a situation in which she cooperates with the separation, like I did, making her run out of options and taking advantage of the fact that she also has hopes in the relationship.

On the other hand, if you don't want to save it, then just make sure everything is handled to her by an officer, preferably a police officer. Make sure you and your stuff are safe, and the kids don't get involved.

You are truly amazing to take on so many at-risk children.  I'm sure you tried your very best, and you should remember that.  But for adult relationships to work, both people need to work at it.  It's sad to say, but my guess is that your daughter has given up on herself.  She can't see anything good in her life--her talents, her adoptive family, her education, the access to therapists who were trying to help her.  My guess is that you tried everything possible to get your daughter help, but she wouldn't cooperate, at least for the time being.  Even though she didn't try hard enough, you did--you went above and beyond, probably to the detriment of your own health and happiness, you tried that hard.  That's not nothing.

My guess is that you are blessed with a loving heart, you are adept at dealing with difficult people, and you are extremely empathetic.  That could be your superpower gift.  But you need to give yourself some grace too.  Maybe once you find yourself in a happier place, you'll see that you did your best, and that it was enough. 

Yes, over-responsibility is a thing with me.  Boundaries! 

 I've always been willing to fall on a sword when things go wrong.  I feel guilty that daughter #4's BPD prevented us from dealing with daughter #5's addiction, that we had to make a Sophie's choice. I've felt guilty that we had to put Son #3 back into foster care, 6 years after we adopted him, because we couldn't manage his Reactive Attachment Disorder.

I beat myself up that we did the best we could for these kids, and it wasn't enough.  I beat myself up that we took on too much. 

I grieve that none of our friends or family could relate to any of the bizarre things we went through.

I do believe, though, that these kids had the best possible chance in life they could have had.   It just wasn't enough.

Since we don't know the details of your divorce paperwork, we can't comment on whether it is practical for your local circumstances.  What your lawyer likely warned you is that things can go sideways in the implementation.  (If not, then this is the warning!)  The risk of police involvement or wild - though unsubstantiated - allegations of DV, neglect or abuse is lurking there just under the surface.

So be very cautious the next few months, especially before and after serving the paperwork.  Might not be wise to serve her yourself in a private scenario thinking to spare her embarrassment.  At least have some witnesses nearby who can prove you didn't misbehave or cause an incident.

This is a time to behave 24/7 as though you had the judge looking over your shoulder.  If she uses drugs or alcohol, that's on her, but you must be squeaky clean in case an "incident" does occur - or is alleged - and the police, children's protective services or whatever get involved.

And don't be surprised if she senses something is up in the coming days... she may be disordered, drugging herself or whatever, but your spouse also has years of experience attuned to subtle nuances and manipulating situations.

I recall the day I called the police, triggering our separation.  When they arrived my preschooler was clinging to me in my arms and quietly sobbing, not with his mother, yet their professional solution was to give default preference to the mother.  Yes, I was asked to hand our son to his mother and "step away".  I didn't get carted off only because our son shrieked and clung tighter to me.  When I later got a divorce lawyer, he was surprised, saying default police policy is to defuse a domestic dispute by removing the man.  Be aware.  Beware.

A lot of pressure on you now!   I am making the assumption you are locking yourself in one bedroom until she finds an apartment and she will be in the rest of the house. I am just looking from a different perspective but would it be possible to rent an apartment for her and while she is at work move her crucial stuff to the apartment and  then hire a mover to take big stuff on a different day that wife agrees to??I absolutely don't know all the details so I may be COMPLETELY out of my element ...if so, I appologize for any wrong thinking on my part! 

Hi there,

It's natural and even healthy to have some disagreements with the person you're dating seriously.  But I think there are some orange flags here.  First is the severity of the argument--a "huge" one.  Second is the nature of the argument:  seemingly out of "nowhere."  Third is his reaction to the argument:  ending the relationship "very abruptly," then blocking you.

What you describe is an emotional reaction that seems intense, over-the-top and maybe illogical; he could have taken offense when none was intended.  Some people are drawn to that intensity, that drama, at least at first.  But what I see is some unfairness too:  not "fighting fair," not listening, not trying to work things out, not apologizing, ending the relationship unilaterally over something that might have been inconsequential.  It's possible that "blocking" you initially served as a means for him to get some distance, and take a breather so to speak.  But to resolve conflicts, typically there must be some communication.  It seems to me he isn't "fighting fair" by blocking you.  I understand I'm old-fashioned here, perhaps reading a block as something more serious than it is.

Maybe with some time and space, he can calm down a bit.  He might change his mind and regret how he acted.  He might pretend the entire argument didn't take place at all.  He might conveniently forget what the argument was about.  But here's the thing:  BPD typically comes with intense, emotionally-driven, over-the-top "drama," "unfair" fights and giving up on the relationship easily.  I'd just ask, are you prepared for that?  I think some people are actually drawn to the drama and intensity, and they like to "fight" for the relationship, to play the role of "rescuer."  Is that what you want?  The good thing is that your partner is showing you early on what the relationship will likely look like.

My general approach with pwBPD and pwBPD traits is to give them an "adult time out" when their negative emotions kick in.  My unspoken rule is not to "interrupt" the time out.  In my experience, I find that they will reach out when they are ready.  Even though I might be concerned for their welfare in the interim, I resist the temptation to "check in" with them, because I feel like it would be violating the "block" that they erected.  In other words, if they tell me they don't want me to contact them, I respect that request.  I'm one of those people who doesn't relish playing games, such as "begging" them to communicate when they've stormed off . . . I think that the "begging" incentivizes them to stay away even longer in my opinion.

Just my two cents.

Hi there,

I'm sorry you've been dealing with the negative behaviors, for what sounds like almost three decades now.  There must be a ton of emotional baggage.  You must feel exhausted, while at the same time worried sick.  You might even feel some PTSD.  Do you tense up every time the phone rings, bracing yourself for more traumatic news?

Here's the thing though.  I get the sense from your post that you might feel overly responsible.  When your daughter was a child, you were responsible for her.  But she's 31 now.  The excerpt above stood out to me:  She's unwilling or unable to take interest in her life.  It sounds to me like she's abdicating responsibility for herself.  That way, she can blame her problems on YOU, or maybe on the world in general.  I think the victim mindset is perhaps the worst part of BPD, because it renders her helpless.  She thinks others should change, not her.  She thinks others should over-function for her, that they OWE her.  She's stuck, and the victim mindset keeps her there.  That could be why therapy isn't working--she doesn't believe she needs it.  She's telling you she doesn't care about her life--she thinks she's worthless.  The sad reality is that she has given up, while you hold onto hope for something better.

I think that's why on these boards we sometimes read that pwBPD have to "hit bottom" before they decide to get some help.  It's just that it sounds like your daughter has to sink even lower.  And if you rescue her, giving her a comfortable landing when she's released from the hospital, she might think, Mom's responsible.  Even if your daughter is miserable, her life is "working" for her.  She hasn't learned yet the "rules" of adulthood--that violence lands you in jail, that unemployment leaves you virtually penniless, that being mean leaves you friendless, that nobody owes you anything, that happiness is a choice, that adult life is full of tasks you don't necessarily want to do, but you do them anyway because you are responsible.  It's not your fault she didn't learn these things--her BPD emotions have gotten in the way.

My sense is that you could benefit from some happiness in your life, to get some distance and help get over the grief.  Maybe you could spend more time with the grandchildren?  I think you owe it to yourself to find happiness in your life, now that your kids have all grown.  In fact I think you should model for your kids what a healthy adult's life looks like--including time for friends, grandkids, hobbies and fun trips.  How does that sound?  That way, should you resume contact with kids in some sort of crisis, you interact from a place of serene happiness, and you uphold boundaries to keep it that way.  In addition, they might learn from you how to have a healthier, balanced life.  How does that sound?

Thank you for more insight.  Minus the not working, my son sounds a lot like what you describe.  Makes me think twice about his inheritance and I will have a talk with his siblings about that.Is there any online counseling that addresses this kind of disorder? 

Hi there,

I'm sorry you're in a tough spot, essentially wanting to protect your grandchildren from the disordered thinking patterns of your son.  I can relate a little bit, because I have an adult stepdaughter with BPD, and another person in the family with undiagnosed NPD.  But the situations are somewhat different because your son seems to be functional, at least in terms of earning a salary.  The people with BPD/NPD in my life are not as high functioning right now.

Anyway, the uNPD in my life is long-term unemployed, suffers from "fantastical" thinking and neglects his three young children.  His "fantasies" and his bizarre "narrative" of his life have gotten worse, not better, over the last decade.  Without a rigid structure of employment or a wife to cater to his every need and usher him around, he slipped into increasing dysfunction.  Even though he has three wonderful kids, he can't seem to get his act together, not even for their sake.  The underlying problem is that with narcissism, the only person he cares about is himself.  His distorted thinking--grandiosity, elements of paranoia, extreme arrogance, demandingness of others, exceptionalism for himself, vindictiveness--seems to taint his decision-making.  He basically makes little, if any, effort to be with his kids, and when he deigns to be present, he makes the entire visit about him and his extensive needs.  It's as if the roles are reversed:  he's the kid, and his kids are his caretakers.  When he doesn't get exactly what he wants, he can be cruel, to his own kids!  And yet he can "pull himself together" when he wants to.  He can appear almost normal and be very convincing with authority figures, such as CPS or cops.  He has no problem with lying.

Anyway, the "least bad" formula that seems to work for the uNPD father is this:  his visits with children must be supervised, and in practice that means supervision by his mother.  She's the one who organizes visitation, including driving and meal preparation.  She picks up and drives around the uNPD father, and my guess is that she "parents" him right along with the grandkids.  You see, the uNPD is generally unable to prepare regular meals for his kids or supervise them appropriately.  Since grandma is responsible, she'll ensure the kids get three meals a day and go to bed at a reasonable hour instead of staying up all night on screens.  And grandma is fun, she'll take the kids to a museum, beach or some sort of excursion, even if uNPD father stays alone to nap all day.  UNPD father is supposed to send child support, but he's generally negligent, and every payment is an argument with him.  Courts have mandated child support and sale of the marital home, but he is generally uncooperative, and since he has no income, there are no wages to garnish.  My point is, assuming ongoing "compliance" from someone who is uncooperative because of mental illness doesn't work very well.  The uNPD father has cited every excuse possible for noncompliance--it's never his fault, always someone (or something) else.

Another point might interest you:  my understanding is that any inheritance going to uNPD father is to be held in a trust administered by a family member.  Why?  Because uNPD father has proven himself to be unreliable with finances, as he chooses unemployment while he binge-spends on frivolous items.  Apparently he has piles of unopened boxes of online orders shipped to his home.  His family obviously came to the conclusion that he'd be better off if he had someone more responsible manage his inheritance on his behalf.

I'm sorry you've struggled so much, probably for years.  I imagine that you've tried to protect your son, but he just won't cooperate.  Maybe it makes sense to focus on the welfare of the grandkids, provided you're in a position to help in some way.  In reading these boards, I've seen that a typical scenario is for the pwBPD to isolate kids from grandparents as punishment for perceived grievances.  That is heartbreaking as well.

Certainly, there is nothing like having a BPD child to expose all my own maladaptive behaviors.  I've struggled with enmeshment, depression and poor boundaries.  I know (now) that I have these issues.  It is a constant up and down.  I've learned how to block her from contacting me.

As some backstory, this daughter (caller her #4) is one of five children we adopted from social services.  We have no birth children. She is fourth youngest. #5 is also a daughter who was born addicted to heroin.  They are about 14 months apart.  #5 became addicted to heroin in her teens, and currently lives in a car with her boyfriend.  They are on and off of fentanyl.

#3, son, had/has reactive attachment disorder.  we have not been in contact for several years.  Son #2 just remarried his ex - wife and is stable living with a career.  Son #1 has been married for 25 years and has 3 lovely grandchildren. We see them often.

This is about daughter #2.    The most difficult part is that she keeps reaching out - if she left us alone that would be different, but I keep being dragged back into her life and have to deal with all the miserable aspects of it.

.... and, looking at what I just wrote, I clearly see a boundary issue.  If I were to set a boundary, though, and not see her or talk to her, I think about her.  How she's surviving.  How she's eating.  How lonely I know she feels.