Thank you for responding. We are definitely among those parents who are just trying to walk the line between being supportive and enabling her. After we refused to let her come back home, she finally agreed to go to job corp, so we paid for her to camp at state parks and took her food until  there was an opening. She finally got a CNA license through job corp which also housed and fed her for 9 months. She had a job and apartment, with us unwisely subsidizing her. Then she moved to Colorado with a friend, and refused to work.  It came to head about five years ago when we first cut her off completely financially, because I finally said I was not working so she didn't have to.  She ended up on the streets, and even then, I was making calls trying find homeless shelters and mental health resources. She had a complete downward spiral which of course she blames me for because I wouldn't let her come home.
She ultimately did go back to work and find housing of sorts, and we started occasionally help8ng her out again. Of course, give her an inch and she takes a mile, and gradually we found ourselves enabling her again. Once again, she lost a job, only this time she had a boyfriend to support her. After realizing she was not putting in any effort to find a job, we cut her off again financially, except phone plan, car insurance, and copays for medical so she would start getting therapy for her bpd. We have refused to give her money for food or living expenses. The condition with the copays is she sends us photos of the receipts, so there is some accountability.
Then with the engagement, I did offer to pay for a wedding (my mom paid for mine, so it seemed the right thing to do.) It's ample, but not ridiculous, $10,000 from a very small retirement fund. I won't just give her the money, because she would spend it with nothing to show for it, and to be fair, she doesn't have many friends, and it will mostly be her sibings and my large extended family who would come, a total of about 50 people.
We ended up spending about that much for her brother's wedding, and will probably pay for her other brother, too, so I don't really think of it as enabling her, but with the wedding in November, and a couple of deposits made, not sure how to proceed.
It just seems like we're walking a tight rope. We are not sure yet what the prognosis for her dad is. They may decide surgery is too risky, or he may have the surgery (scheduled for mid September) and not make it. At this point, I don't have a lot of energy to deal with her. What she may not realize is that when her dad dies (whether this year or 10 years from now), my income will be be almost half what it is now, and I may not be able to continue paying out the $600-800 a month in copays, or pay for a phone or car stuff.
Thanks for listening. It is helpful to know there are others who have gone through this, and understand.

From your posts, you seem to feel invested in your GF's work on recovery and continued contact with her. There is nothing you have done wrong. This is just feedback for you that you are invested in her in the form of supporting her emotionally and financially through therapy if she chooses it.

I think, considering that the two of you are still trying to work things out in some way, protecting the kids would mean protecting them from this "up in the air" state. You may be feeling back and forth, as she may be too, but they are too young to comprehend this or to be involved with this. IMHO, keeping things as stable and unchanging for them for now is a way to protect them. Don't make large decisions, like having her move in, or getting married. Don't tell them it's over as emotionally, it's not.

There's no "wrong" section on this board- many posters post in different ones. However, it seems you are still wanting to see if there is a path to improvement in the relationship,  you may find more advice on the "improvement" section.  Or if you are trying to decide which way to go with this, where both options are discussed, the "conflicted" section.

I've experienced this but for me it was a little different, maybe because this was a 25+ year relationship across dating and marriage.  There was so much trauma that I simply forgot about...erased from my mind entirely...that came back maybe 2 years post-breakup.  One was being screamed at while I was having a panic attack.  She was so mad at me over whatever, she couldn't even recognize that I was about to pass out from hyperventilating.  How does someone forget that?!?  But i did for almost two decades.

The good memories stung at first and made me question if there's still hope, still reason to hold on a little longer.  Those lasted for almost two years and I second-guessed so much.  But in time, I gained clarity that the abuse, inability to communicate, and her constant absence in my life far outweighed any of the positive memories.

Today, I can remember something positive and smile.  My mind has figured out how to separate the memory from my ex though, and I can clearly see that it would have been a great memory regardless who I was with.  In other words, it wasn't so special because my ex went out of her way for me in some super-meaningful way.

Maybe that helps?  I still don't understand so much of how the mind works with memories.

With my BPD daughter, most of the time when she calls it's two specific reasons:

1)  To ask for help or money
2)  To talk about anything random

I get why she'd call for #1 if she can't pay a bill or whatever.  But the random, senseless talk leaves me perplexed as well.  Recently it was about how the smurfs could have a whole villiage of smurfs but only one girl.  And I'm thinking, "It's a cartoon for kids from 40 years ago....spoiler alert....it's not for adults to contemplate."  Of course I didn't say that, but often I'm left scratching my head what we're actually doing on the phone.

Like you said, we rarely talk about real life stuff.  If I bring up something I'm doing or going through, the topic is quickly changed to something meaningless.  My guess would be that it still feels like a connection even though everything being said is superficial.  And if that helps her, I guess I'll talk about the smurfs sometimes.

Oh, this one hit home particularly.

Great job!  While I get the sense you'd want to have "normal," two-sided conversations with your son, it seems to me he is being fairly direct by saying, "I can't handle talking about my life because I'm feeling overwhelmed, and I don't want to hear about any of your problems right now, because that will stress me out even more, and I'm liable to explode."  Basically he's asking you to avoid any triggering topics when he's feeling overwhelmed.  That to me seems like some emotional control, because he resisted the temptation to lash out or dredge up some unrelated grievance and make you his punching bag, and yet, he stayed in the conversation.  Would you agree?  Even better, it seems to me that he recognized that he was a bit rude to you, and he tried to make it up to you by calling you back and wishing you a good evening!

Now, I understand that this might feel less than optimal for you, because YOU desire some closeness and communication, and you don't want to be constantly walking on eggshells, worrying that if you ask your son something as simple as, "How are you?", that he'll go down a negative conversation spiral.  Trust me, I've been exactly where you are right now with the pwBPD in my life, thinking that if a "How are you?" is triggering, it's extremely difficult to have a conversation at all.  There were many times I'd say something like, "You look nice, how was your day?", and all I got was a glare from my pwBPD as she escaped to her bedroom.  My interpretation?  She felt like a question about her day was an inquisition, tinged with thinly veiled harsh judgment, because she knew she wasn't doing what she was supposed to be doing during her day.  Her coping technique was avoidance--escaping the conversation to her room.  This was probably better than self-destructing into an angry, petulant mess.  And in all the years I've lived with her (more than a decade), she's asked me about my life only once or twice.  In fact, I think that's a hint for some of her issues relating to other people:  she shows practically zero interest in anyone else, because all her mental bandwidth is occupied with thinking about herself and her ongoing "traumas".  When I witness her converse with other people, the conversations seem to fizzle out quickly, because she answers questions with one-word answers, and she doesn't throw the "conversation ball" back.  And then she wonders why she can't seem to connect with other people.  Trust me, I've tried to engage with her, and it's like pulling teeth.  The only "safe" topic is basically TV, and that's a tough one because I don't really watch much TV and don't have the same streaming services she has.

I guess that's why the general advice here would be to keep things light and superficial, and let your son take the conversation lead.  Also, remember that this is probably temporary.  If your son is feeling overwhelmed right now but actually holds things together and pushes through, he might eventually discover he can handle more than he thought he could, and he'd bolster his confidence and identity as a competent, independent dad/son.  Then a greater percentage of conversations might feel "normal."

I really appreciate the reply - and I read your post and that resonates ALOT with me. Thank you so much for sharing that.

I just started sobbing crying when you said you were proud of me. Thank you.

I think it's some trial and error finding what works best. You have seen that keeping the conversation light on your end seems to help. Still, your son's emotions are his- it's possible some calls he's less controlled than others, but you managed your side of things.

It's not possible to know what someone else is thinking but my own explanation was that if BPD mother had difficulty managing her own feelings, then adding mine to the interactions would escalate the situation, so I kept it light on my end.

This did have a "one way" feel to the relationship but - if this was what she could handle, it's that way anyway, if I didn't keep it light. My own goal was to reduce the drama, at least what I could do on my side of it.

It's hard to know what anyone means when they use the term "love" because, feelings are subjective. With BPD, what they feel can be in the moment and feelings can change, but this may be where your son is at- it's what he can do. However, if he asks for something like money, be prepared for him to feel angry in the moment and he may say something different in that moment, keep in mind this is his feelings in the moment, too.

You can love your son in a different manner, love that doesn't waver with his moods. Sometimes love is tough love. That means acting in his best interest, even if he doesn't like it or feel it as "love" in that moment. Love is saying "no" to cookies for dinner, even if your toddler is having a meltdown and telling you that you are a poopy face. It's holding a boundary and not enabling your grown son, even when he's raging at you on the phone. His calm "I love you" moments in between are the high points, they are real to him, so appreciate them when you have them. Stay calm and steady during the meltdowns. It's still a relationship.

Hi needsupport,

I'm so sorry you're experiencing this. Congratulations on finding the strength you needed to leave an abusive relationship (I read a few of your previous posts).

I relate to what you have described very much - the cognitive dissonance of something you experienced which was real, felt real, you were there - there was a person you knew, or thought you knew, there are memories. Juxtaposed with the other memories and pieces of information about this person which show that what you thought was happening, wasn't happening. Or if it was, the person who existed then just doesn't exist now.   

I have had something similar lately. Not exactly the same, but when good things happen in my life - and in particular, one very good and big adventure coming up - I remember how this was an experience and adventure that uBPDx and I planned to share together. Now it's becoming a reality, but just for me. There is a confusing feeling because I am not sure who it actually was who planned to share the adventure - likely it was just mirroring. It's a double ghost - the ghost of the shared plans I thought we were going to enact together, and the ghost of the person who I thought was with me, making the plans. I described it a bit a month ago, here.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=3062439.0

I want this to pass for you, and I think it will. Based on your previous posts, you've already been through so much and grown so much. You took the right steps for you and your children and this internet stranger is proud of you.

After I posted I started thinking more about about the conversations I have with my son. At first I thought he uses me to feel better. That's the depth of our conversations. A call so I can distract him or a call to calm him or a call to rescue him. Yes, he says he loves me and asks about my well being and my husband's... Maybe that's a good as it can be at least for now. I do get calm interactions which is nice. Maybe it's being grateful for the relationship we do have.