I agree- Zachira- I think at some level, it will always feel upsetting when dealing with the flying monkeys. I think a difference now is that- we recognize it and can "recover" our calm again a bit more quicker. I don't think there's one exact word for how this feels- it's like an ick feeling.

They don't change, and yet, I think these episodes also bring back some grief and disappointment - as we had wished for something better with them, but this is who they are.

You have every right to protect your peace. Inractions with family members may not be completely avoidable but acting calm, collected, non reactive keeps your power with you.

Self care is a good response to when we feel icky after contact with them. Go do something nice for yourself

Has anyone seen this, and also saw their ex as the main character? Multiple times I just shook my head. That's my ex...she's acted that way. Said those things. The tone. Great movie but scary for our reasons.

I got a phone call from one of the flying monkeys from my large extended family. Summer is the time of year when the flying monkeys bother me because they want to know if I will be around. I kept my cool, practiced boundaries yet today I still feel the hurt. I am still working on accepting that the flying monkeys from the narcissistic family are hell bent on preserving the family image. I have refused to accept my role as scapegoat or the abuse of other scapegoats so I am ostracized. The flying monkeys could never take a look at how they have enabled the abuse of others.

The family does not want me to come to the celebration of life of a close relative who I was close to. The invitations were sent out months ago to everyone but me. Now I am being asked a few days in advance if I will be attending. The person who called knows I was never sent an invitation, that I live far away most of the year and would have just a few days to book a flight to be able to come if I am not actually at the summer place. She just really wanted to know if I would be at the summer place. I used to receive this kind of inquiry every summer and I did not respond. Her phony voice asking me if I was coming just turned my stomach. She made several nasty comments, talked down to me. I am still feeling grossed out by this interaction realizing I have moved so far in discovering my true self and realizing I just do not enjoy my two faced phony relatives.  Thanks for reading this. Want to just move on.

My experiences are kind of unique since I have a BPD daughter (traditional) and a BPD ex wife (quiet).  On the surface, they're nothing alike.  One explodes daily, the other keeps everything hidden inside.  Both are very kind when they want to be, and both see things in absolutes when they're disordered (you always say this, you never do that).  My kid picked fights daily with people she was close to.  My wife suffered silently and fell deeper and deeper into depression.

They were nothing alike at a glance, but ultimately they were the same.

How?  Why?  I don't want to get too deep into my story right now because this is about you.  When my ex wife ultimately turned on me though and got to the discard phase, she said and did things that I didn't think she was capable of.  There were decades of built up frustration and it came out with complete hatred just like my kid does daily.  There was zero chance to save my marriage.

Now, you're wondering where your spouse fits in all of that.  She could be exactly like my ex...or nothing like her.  We tend to see patterns here but there's not a one-size-fits-all experience that rings true for all of us.  There's levels of sickness/disorder and there's life expeirences that makes everyone unique.  My ex was a very good, moral person.  My daughter often means well, but her illness pulls her off track so easily.

The illness part is often the same in terms of feelings.  But think about it.  You and I can be together somewhere, something happens, and we both get angry over what happens right in front of us.  Maybe I stay silent or say we need to leave immediately.  Maybe you want to confront the situation and give them a piece of your mind.  Our life experiences are going to play a huge factor in how we each react...even though we both agree on this particular right/wrong.  We could be 100% aligned in our thinking yet do two completely different things, because you and I are individuals with unique morals and experiences.

BPDs are the same way.  Like I said earlier, my ex and my kid are exactly the same at their core due to mental illness.  But their daily life, their actions, their personalities, those are completely different.  The BPD part only refers to how they react when they're disordered.

One last thing.  My kid explodes often, will resort to violence if she feels it's necessary, and will carry a grudge to the ends of the earth.  My ex will stay silent and let things build, which makes her hopelessly depressed with tons of anxiety.  My ex is a good person on paper, my kid is not.

Yet, I would say that my kid is "healthier" mentally.  And I know that sounds crazy at first, but hear me out.  My kid reacts in the moment and gets out all that negative, explosive energy.  Sometimes she cries after or stays anrgy for awhile, but it eventually allows her to reset and go about her day.  My ex, on the other hand, just lets it build internally and feels like she's dying inside.  She can't react because "she's a good person", so the guilt and shame eat away at her 24/7 until she can't stand it anymore.  There is no "reset" because she never takes action or stands up for herself.  Each day is worse than the last.

I love both of them and I have compassion for both of them.  But my heart breaks for my ex because I had a small glimpse into her psyche when she left me several years ago.  She's just like my kid, a volcano ready to explode, yet she hadn't exploded in decades.  And that let her mental illness consume her until there was no other option than suddenly destroying our marriage in spectacular ways.

You may relate to that or you may not.  Hopefully that showed the differences a little bit between the two clasifications.  My wife and my kid are identical at their core, but they're completely different in almost every recognisible way.  They both have hearts of gold that simply get pulled off track by mental illness.

You're right.  Blanket statements don't fit every circumstance.  That's because we all have different traits to different extents.  We're not identical robots on an assembly line.

However, there are often common behavior patterns, not universal but generally frequent enough to be identifiable.  As an example, autism is often described as being on a spectrum, from moderate to severe.  Similarly, Borderline, Narcissistic, Antisocial, etc all exit exist more or less on a spectrum as well.

Some here report infidelity, others report none or only emotional affairs.  Many report report periodic rants and rages, virtual ragefests.  Some seem to be co-morbid with traits of multiple disorders, such as BPD with NPD traits.  So it is wise to listen, ponder and then determine what fits your experiences.

Another consideration is that those who come here may not reflect the full scope of BPD experiences.  We don't know how many are not motivated to figure out what might be wrong with their loved ones.  They may see more mild behaviors and not be as desperate to seek out information.  The experts (as I recall William Eddy mentioning) estimate that 10% to 15% of divorces involve a disordered spouse.

You will find quite an array of books over on our Book Club board.  Each author seems to have found certain aspects to highlight.  One I recall was Christine Ann Lawson's Understanding the Borderline Mother where she describes various personality types such as Waif, Hermit, Queen or Witch.  There is quite a variety of behaviors we witness and also quite a variety of strategies, tools and skills we can use depending upon our specific needs.

One can also look at this both ways. A behavior that is predictable and consistent is also a behavior that is reinforced- by the partner. Each is in a relationship pattern. For any behavior dynamic to change- one or both has to change their behavior.

The person who has their behavior reinforced is not likely to change. This is because the behavior is working for them, and being reinforced perpetuates it.

It's the person who is experiencing the consequences of the pattern that has more of the incentive to change, but it's also a self reinforcing pattern- otherwise they'd have changed it. It's working for them in some ways, even if it's at an emotional cost to them. Without change, the partner's response to the pwBPD's behavior is predictable too.

One factor that works against the partner changing is the familiarity of the pattern and knowing the outcome of appeasing or not. You know that acommodating your wife's wishes helps keep the peace. To not do this may cause her to escalate. It's a challenging situation.

I've posted before how confusing it is when someone we see as logical and sound mind, even who has a moral compass, says and does - irrational and hurtful things, because to me, my father was the stable person in the relationship. And yet, as if he were somehow spell bound, he'd do and say things that were out of character for him.

I do believe it is a form of Stockholm syndrome, and also somehow, an extreme form of enmeshment. My own theory is that- my mother's BPD thinking and perception, and logical reality, could not co-exist. Even for me, being around her, listening to her perspective, it was hard to know what was real and what was not. She would talk to us, for validation- and press us to affirm her thinking. Sometimes she'd say things that were real and others so close to reality, that they were believable.

Borderlines are not completly psychotic, and so it is hard to discern if what they say is grounded in reality or not. I know someone with schiztophrenia and when she tells me that someone is shooting radio waves at her, I know it's not real, but when BPD mother says "your aunt insulted me"- maybe she did, maybe she didn't. It doesn't sound as far fetched, but it could be just as untrue.

My BPD mother would also put people up to carry out her wishes and the main one was my father. So she'd get some idea in her head and pressure him to carry it out. When BPD mother wants something, she persistently pressures and escalates, and that need has to be met. Dad would eventually give in, just to get her to stop.

I think my father eventually just capitulated to keep the peace and eventually, the two of them seemed to act as one person. Two separate wills can not co-exist in these circumstances. BPD mother's feelings, and wishes predominated.

But he wasn't a hostage. BPD mother was the one who was completely dependent on him and yet somehow she was the one with complete power in the relationship. This took both of them. He had choices, (albeit difficult ones)- but he also had the role of enabling partner in this situation and he was still responsible for what he said and did, however, if he didn't go along with her, her reaction was extreme.

It was a choice of consequences. We kids, his family members- we weren't going to react like she did- which included destructive and harmful behavior and under extreme pressure, Dad would just do what she asked.

As to your stepson's messages. In the era before internet or cell phones, whatever I said to my father was shared with my mother. If I called him on the house phone, she was listening in on the extention. When there was internet, every email I sent him or he sent me was also seen by her. Sometimes I didn't know who was "speaking"- him or her as they both sounded the same.

I'd be willing to bet that your stepson's wife sees every message on his phone and is either telling him to send them. When he says these things to his sisters, or father- I think she is pressuring him to say them. Does he believe what he says? I don't know. It's possible he's so stressed and confused he doesn't know either.

For those of us who are not disordered, it's unthinkable for someone to cut off a parent, child, sibling- for no real reason. In some cases of serious abuse, addiction, criminal behavior- it may be warranted, but this isn't the case with your H, and it wasn't with anyone in our family either, but it seems to be a frequent situation in BPD relationships. Why, I don't fully understand.

I know your H is hurting. I think this is one of the more hurtful outcomes of these relationships. It's understandable that he has these feelings, but what I would suggest is that he doesn't react back out of them. Because it can cause more relationship harm than good. The step son is already in a highly emotionally difficult situation, it will only confirm his unfounded beliefs.

From my own experiences, I would suggest your H "quietly retreat" - for his own emotional well being. Don't make any grand statement of "you are cut off" to his son. Just be quiet, don't keep trying to communicate with him for now, because if it were with my parents, any communication to him is filtered through his wife, and may be deleted, used as evidence, whatever.  If the son reaches out, ever, reply in a calm and non judgmental way but let the son come to you, if he decides to.

However, this is just my suggestion. I am not a therapist and so IMHO, your H needs counseling and professional advice on what to do. This is emotionally painful. He needs to take care of himself and process these emotions, and the feeling of loss. What I think is happening is that the son has lost himself in the relationship, and he's the only one who can choose to recover that, if he ever does. Giving the quiet space allows the son to feel that void, if he's going to.

Whatever happens- please don't cut off your son on legal papers in any way. As Pook said- it's for now, maybe not forever. Words hurt, feelings can change. The son will always be his son, whether or not the son can recognize it from the situation he's in. Your H can.

There is a light at the end of your dark tunnel, but don't think it is the express train bearing down on you.  Instead, see it as the sunshine on the other side, dim now but as you progress closer it will get brighter.  It will.  Now, to get there...

Over on our Book Club board we have reviewed many helpful books and the handbook by William Eddy will be especially helpful for you... Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder .  It's also available from Eddy website as an eBook.  Between this book, your therapist, your family law attorney and us here in peer support, you'll have many options when seeking guidance and strategies in the coming months.

Probably best for you to not order a copy yourself.  You don't want her to see it come in the mail or have a purchase record in a shared account.*  Perhaps one of your trusted friends can order it for you?  Note that your mutual friends (hers and yours) are not trusted friends right now.

* There will be things NOT to share with your spouse going forward.  Why?  When seeking to repair a damaged relationship, you would share to foster improved trust.  But once you've concluded the relationship is beyond repair, then some information is best not divulged or else you risk enabling her to sabotage you in some way.

Many of Eddy's warnings are aimed to help you avoid common mistakes and hidden traps as you maneuver through the unfeeling legal environment of family court.  Much of what you learn won't make much common sense to you, at least, not at first.  My lawyer never referred to Eddy's priceless book.  My lawyer trusted his experience and so appeared more as a "seat of the pants" guy.  Me?  I listened to both Eddy and my lawyer.

A pwBPD, like an alcoholic or drug addict or similar, likely won't "hit bottom" until there is no other option.  Problem is, no one can state in advance when that might be.  You might think, "This time it's her bottom", yet the chaos, blaming and rages continue.  You might think she's bottomed out many times and still she doesn't reverse course and truly seek help.  No one can predict how many false bottoms.

The only way to recognize a true bottom is when she seeks real help and diligently applies it in her life, perceptions and behavior over an extended period of time.  There are no quick fixes.  Granted, she would "fall off the wagon" but true recovery means she would get back up and keep working on herself.  It would be a long, long series of "two steps forward and one step back".

That's IF and WHEN she chooses recovery.  She may never fully recover, to be realistic, but in the spirit of "something is better than nothing", it would be an improvement for herself and those around her.

Hi again,

I'm sorry I missed this detail when I responded to you earlier.  I agree that there's always a risk of your niece re-writing history and accusing you of nefarious things.  My adult BPD stepdaughter tried pulling that stunt a few times.  Initially, I tended to give her the benefit of the doubt.  But as time passed, her claims became more outlandish, and she started to change her tune when challenged.  In parallel, as I discovered more details about past incidents from other people, I realized that she had wildly misrepresented events, always portraying herself as a victim, when more often than not, she was the abuser!

I have some additional advice for you, which is this:  please don't let your niece stay with you in your home again.  It sounds to me like your home is her back-up housing plan.  Let me guess:  she loses a job, gets evicted or breaks up with a romantic partner, and she expects you to take her in, right?  She can't stay with her own mom because she's toxic, right?  I've been in the same situation with my adult BPD stepdaughter.  She has rebounded to my home several times in her adult life, basically every time she quits and gives up--her job, her rooming situation, her one-week romance, her studies.  When she lives with me, she's essentially on vacation, in the sense that she's vacating her life.  Sure, she promises to work and be nice, that this time will be different, but she keeps her promises for only a few days.  She avoids responsibilities and dealing with real life.  By letting her stay in our home, we're essentially enabling continued dysfunction, and we can't get away from her very negative aura.  That is not good for me or my husband, or our marriage.  And enabling dysfunction is not good for her, not at all.  My opinion is that by "helping" her, we're actually hurting her, because she's able to avoid getting professional help and working on herself.

Your niece might guilt-trip into you helping her.  She might accuse you of being a horrible person until you relent.  She might make all sorts of promises to convince you to let her stay with you.  She'll try to push all your buttons--of fear, obligation and guilt.  PwBPD can be extremely manipulative that way, but they're good at it, because it has worked for them in the past.  But here's the thing:  your niece has gone "nuclear" already.  If she doesn't get what she wants, she threatens suicide.  If you take her seriously and call 911, she turns around and hates you for believing her!  Then she starts threatening you.  It seems to me that she's MAD:  threatening mutually assured destruction.  That's why you can't let her live with you anymore.  You can't fix her.  Only she can do that.  You are not the solution to her problems; she is.  I think she'll decide to get help only once she hits bottom.  If you prevent her from hitting bottom by allowing her a safety hammock in your house, you run the risk of ruining your life right alongside hers.

I know this might sound like tough love for your niece, but really it's tough love for you.  Please, help yourself by saving yourself first.  Let your niece live on her own or get evicted.  Mabye then she'll have a breakdown, hit bottom and decide to get professional help, because getting professional help will seem like her only remaining option.  Please don't let your couch be an option for her.  All that does is prolong her misery and include you in it.