Oh gosh, is this another line in their playbook? We stopped couples counseling initially because my boundaries got weaker and I endured more raging, so she was able to regulate a bit after she exploded. But per usual, a human can only take so much and I'd entertain the argument and defend myself. I asked her if we could go to therapy again, to get a neutral third party's opinion on the situations based on complete facts of the situation. NOPE. 'You'll just get her on your side because you know how to speak and express yourself better. You're a master manipulator'. I am not, I can speak clearly and my story doesn't change every time I tell it, spun in a way to make me a victim.

From what I've read everywhere, seen in many videos...couples counseling is not very successful with people who have BPD. It's another form of them being attacked since they can never be wrong and hate guilt/shame.

Hi,

Indeed it feels like walking on a tightrope--one wrong move and everything might come tumbling down.  Looking back, it seems like my husband was on speed dial for all sorts of problems like the ones described above--the missed utilities payment, the broken key, the urgent need for money for fast food and other non-essentials.  It's not just one thing that stands out, but rather a pattern of generalized overwhelm with adulthood, and seeming cluelessness about problem-solving.  Instead of feeling annoyed, the pwBPD feels frantic, and the problem feels like it's super-sized.  Rather than focus on the problem at hand, the pwBPD spins out of control, generally making the issue worse, not better.  Rather than put feelings in context (this is a just temporary hassle, life is full of hassles), they take things personally.  Rather than reflect and learn (I should probably join AAA, I should pay my bills on time, I need to save for an emergency fund), they avoid responsibility and blame someone else.  Rather than accept that life comes with hard choices and isn't fair, they feel persecuted and downtrodden, constantly disappointed, constantly in distress.

In my experience, upon speed-dialing the parent, the kid hypes up the graveness and urgency of the problem, followed by a demand for the parent fix it, because of the misguided notion that parents OWE their kids.  When a parent rushes in to fix the problem, in the name of keeping their kid from self-destructing, they're actually getting in the way of their beloved child from learning how the real world works.  Look, my stepkids racked up several speeding and parking tickets as well as towing fees, which my husband paid for, for years!  He even paid for legal counsel to appear in court to contest the moving violations, so that his kid wouln't have too many points on her driving record, increasing insurance costs and potentially revoking the license.  But what happened when he finally stopped paying for the tickets?  I don't know, because we stopped hearing about them, and my guess is that the kids stopped getting tickets, because they had to face real-world consequences for once!  Ultimately, two of my stepkids decided to sell their cars which their dad and I had gotten for them.  I think they did a cost-benefit analysis and decided it wasn't worth it to keep the cars.  One of those kids has BPD, and I suspect that not having a car actually simplified her life and decreased stress.

What happens when a parent starts to decline to be an ATM/AAA service/babysitter/co-signer/bill payer/life fixer/constant emotion soother?  Typically an extintion burst.  This happens because the kid has grown up accustomed to getting a parent to take the responsibiliity and fix their problems.  Of course, when a kid was actually a kid, this was expected.  But over the years, if you continue to treat your kid like a kid, they continue to act like one:  throwing tantrums when they don't get what they want, seeming over-the-top entitled, calling a parent for emotional/financial/logistical support all the time, needing help solving everyday problems.  I'm not saying that calling for help for support and advice is inherently bad, but I'm talking about degrees--the frequency, intensity and duration of the cries (shouts!) for help, as well as the underlying purpose.  Like Pook said, when it seems the kid doesn't want to solve the problem herself, but rather rant and complain and get people to feel sorry for her so that they step in to fix it, while blaming others for all her woes, then this is the core issue, especially with BPD.

I might be too "tough" on tough love, but I have another thought.  When parents are overly generous, they might actually be setting up their kids up to fail.  Think buying them automobiles which kids haven't helped pay for themselves, or "setting them up" in a luxury living situation to help "get their life in order" and "start over," typically far away from their traditional support system.  I think that oftentimes, the pwBPD just aren't "ready" for maintaining such a deluxe lifestyle which comes with having to manage (and care for as well as pay for) the lifestyle.  They don't value what they have, because they don't have enough "skin in the game."  I think that sometimes, their life would be simpler and less stressful if they didn't experience such huge lifestyle inflation in early adulthood, but rather worked (and learned) their way into it.  On these boards I've read about young adult pwBPD having to handle a spouse, children, cars, home/furnishings, mortgages, multiple pets, and long-distance travel, which seems like a ton of pressure when they've barely handled working a starter job and/or college classes.  I can't help but think back when I was in my early 20s, and all I had was a job and a studio apartment with a futon, not even a TV.  It was simple but also liberating, because I could focus on working, living, learning and making friends.  I didn't have car payments, insurance or even renter's insurance, because I didn't own anything of value to insure, except my own health.  My lifestyle was limited by my take-home pay.  I rented the apartment I could afford, because nobody else was paying my rent.  I didn't buy too much furniture, because I didn't have much space.  Credit limits on credit cards took years to cultivate.  Saving up for big purchases like a car or home took years of careful planning and saving.  I decided I didn't want a pet because I didn't want to be tied down to feeding it and tending to it daily; a pet would make work trips too complicated for me.

Just my two cents.

Marriage is give and take, so yes, you're always negotiating.  But boundaries are non-negotiable if you enforce them properly.

If you go back to my first post in this thread, I said several times to show love and compassion when your BPD spouse is dysregulated.  I think that's the whole key you're missing; this is not about punishment or gaining the upper hand. 

- You show compassion to help your spouse calm down, to avoid the fight.
- If that fails, you ask for some space for everyone to calm down.
- If that fails, you inform them that you're taking a break and will be back soon.
- If that fails, you physically leave the home for a short time.
- If that fails, you mention law enforcement or an ambulance.

But the one thing you're doing the entire time, at every step of the process, is try to calm your spouse down through love, empathy, and compassion.

Almost every argument comes down to a sense of abandonment.  That's not what they say, but it's what they feel and it's why they get so upset.  In that moment, the only goal is to help them take a breath so their mind catches up to their emotions.  You don't defend.  You don't fight back.  You don't try to get even. 

You help them weather the storm by letting them know that they're the most important thing in the moment.  And then the storm passes.

Your wife is mentally ill, so at times she struggles to regulate her feelings.  When she's scared, lonely, or depressed, things can go downhill fast.  That's why you make her feel safe, seen, and loved...that's the cure to all of this.

You might think it's impossible.  But does your wife yell at everyone?  The mail man?  The guy at the grocery store?  The neighbors?  If the answer is no to any of those people, then she can regulate her emotions when she's not unstable.  The problem comes from within the relationship.

By the way, the very first success story of this board, written by John Galt, is the most interesting one. But in my understanding, what happened there is that his wife got threatened with losing her husband and the custody of the kids at the same time. Since she had been through institutional stays, suicide attempts, and police charges, John Galt had plenty of proof that she wasn't stable enough to take care of the kids by herself, and therefore shared custody was not a viable option, so the judge should give him full custody. And because she was fully aware of that possibility, she complied.

If my wife felt truly threatened with losing custody of the kids because of her instability, I can guarantee you that things would take a miraculous trajectory from there, like in the case of John Galt. However, the videos I have from her are not that bad. They only prove that she breaks stuff and bullies me. But she has never done self-harm and has never gotten police charges.

Hi Pook075 ,

Well, boundaries, by definition, must be enforceable. That's for every context, and it remains true when you're dealing with a BPD spouse. The eyelid example we see in this board is something you can enforce (no one can prevent you from closing your eyelids). Do you agree with this basic concept?

Anyway, I think you agree that all of the interaction with the BPD spouse, as well as the lack of interaction, is part of a negotiation, right? So every smaller part of it is transactional. You may not be forcing anything directly, but you are focusing on the consequences that you bring to each behavior of hers, and your goal is not just to preserve yourself but also to have a positive influence on her behavior, right?

In your last sentence you were implying that we would teach our BPD spouse right from wrong. So you should agree that the boundary ends up being a negative consequence for her behavior. Just like when we ignore an infant that's throwing a tantrum. Right?

My original title is "How to enforce boundaries when living together?" and your reply is "by walking away". But what do you mean by that? Staying in the same house won't work because the person keeps persecuting you. Leaving the house every time is also not an option because of kids and working from home. Locking yourself in a room also won't work very well. So the only effective way to "walk away" is to move out. Now that's not a valid solution for the original problem, because when you leave, you are not living together anymore. Does that make sense?

So do you agree that when living together, chances are that you won't be able to enforce the necessary boundaries of yours anymore?


Did she persecute you throughout the house? If you were back in the same situation you experienced in the past, how exactly should you have "walked away" from that?

By the way, if I lived in a huge home made of wood and drywall, I guess the acoustics would help a lot. But instead I live in an apartment with walls of brick/concrete that has only about 80 square meters. The walls do no dampening of the screams; they reflect the sound instead.

Yes, living with someone with autism or BPD is difficult. I think at this point, having the actual label of BPD would probably not be helpful. It would be validating to you to know that- but there's no specific treatment for it and he's pretty fixed in his behavior- whether it's BPD or being on the spectrum.

It's also frustrating to see him not comply with his health recommendations.

The grandchild seems like a bright spot in all of this. Considering that BPD and autism, whichever he has, affects relationships- this one doesn't involve the social skills of a relationship with an adult. It may be more feasable for him. Whatever the reason- it's good for both. I assume you are supervising them- as he may be more likely to be forgetful of meals or changing him.

I was married to my BPD ex for 25 years and dated her about two years before that.  We also had a BPD daughter together.  My ex was violent, unstable, and extremely entitled for many of the early years of the marriage.  She also bad-mouthed me to anyone who would listen and tried her best to turn our kids against me.

Of the things I just listed, what can I personally control?

The answer is "nothing", and that's why a boundary is ONLY about me.  If my boundary is about me and her, and she responds badly, then what do I have?  Nothing.  That's why is must be only about me.


Okay, so she's frantic.  Let her be.  I would walk away and allow her to be frantic all on her own.  My boundary for that is simple- I don't argue, I don't take abuse.  If I try to help her calm down and it fails, I walk away.

In other words, no matter what she does, I'm focusing on my boundary for my mental health.  She can do absolutely anything she wants; the decision is hers.  She gets to decide for herself and I get to decide for me.


Domestic violence is real and it's enforced pretty much worldwide.  Maybe nobody goes to jail, but the point is made nonetheless.  My boundary is that I don't argue, I don't accept abuse.  If you can't respect that and you won't let me leave, then I'm dialing 9-1-1.

However, see this for what is really is though.  I say to you, "I'm not arguing."  You keep arguing.  I try to walk away.  You don't let me walk away.  I reinforce what my boundary is, I'm not arguing and I'm choosing to walk away to avoid this.  You decide to get physical, or you start breaking things, or you threaten to harm me or yourself.  That's when 9-1-1 comes in.

Because look what happened.  My boundary is "I don't argue."  Either you accept that or it escalates.  The choices are all 100% yours and they have no bearing on my personal boundaries.  I'm going to choose not to engage though because my boundary does not depend on you.

Again, if I say, "I'm not going to argue anymore....ever....", then I can stand by that.  It has nothing to do with how much someone else yells, screams, or threatens harm.


Again, let them get triggered.  If your kids don't eat their vegetables but demand ice cream, do you just say, "Oh well, I have to make the kids happy so the heck with the rules?"  Of course not, you teach right from wrong.  And you do the exact same thing with a BPD spouse.

That one line sums it all up. It was exactly why I stopped chasing my ex when I finally realised our relationship wasn't going forwards, as a relationship should, but simply going in a circle that repeated endlessly.

BPD's tend to take it out on those they're closest to and not really want to break up - I know my ex came looking for me after her worst outburst but this time I'd just had enough and wasn't there.

Even if you know they don't really mean it, they're still doing it and will continue to do it.. abuse is still abuse no matter how its done. It all comes down to how much you're prepared to endure to keep the relationship.

Hi Pook075 ,

Do you have the experience that I described in my original post? It doesn't look like you do. I checked your very first message, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like your former wife was not trying to destroy your life, and instead she withdrew and ran away, right? I think your advice may fit well with your experience but not mine. And there are some things that I disagree with.

A boundary will never be about you only. Because it will always affect your partner in some way. And it must, because otherwise it won't be effective at all. Let me give an example. You want to leave the chat every time she offends you. If you leave, she will feel it. So you set an AI to keep talking to her after she has left so that she doesn't feel it. The problem there is that you have allowed her to create an unrealistic expectation about your attention, and next time it will be even harder to end the conversation.

But let's suppose you'll be honest with her, so instead of using AI, you try to communicate it nicely, with compassion, hoping that she will accept it (not get too angry). That may work with most BPD wives on most occasions, but in some cases, depending on her emotional state and motives, she will be so frantic about it that she won't be listening to you at all, and you won't be able to convince her, so she will get angry anyway, and that can escalate to self-harm or husband-harm. If you are both in the same house, then it will be too easy to just jump on your back and not allow you to sleep. Do you get it?

You did not say anything about enforcing boundaries, except in the end when you talked about calling 911. But that's like outsourcing the boundary enforcement to the government. That won't be an option unless she is putting someone's life at risk and you can prove it.

Stating that "BPD dysfunction stems from the fear of abandonment" may apply to your experience, but it certainly does not apply to all. The "frantic efforts to avoid abandonment" criterion from the DSM is not even mandatory; it is optional. The core symptom is actually the emotional instability. This is why in the UK and Europe, BPD is often called Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (EUPD), which is an official term.

Anyway, my point is that the person with BPD may get triggered by any kind of "No" response that they get, depending on the interpretation that they do.

Let me give you a futile example. A couple of days ago, my wife heard the kids asking me for a coffee candy, and I gave one to each. So my wife asked me for a candy as well. I said "No", because she had been attacking me verbally for the entire day. I was not arguing back to her about anything, because I don't want the kids to hear any discussion. But still, she managed to get angry at me for saying "No". She got so angry, she got re-triggered and started it all over again.

The same happened today when she was preparing to go to therapy and asked me to put the power bank in the bag. I said "No, I have already given you the power bank just now, so you can put it in the bag", because it would be very easy for her to do it by herself, and again, she had been offending me badly since the day before. She then started lashing out again, had an anxiety crisis, and missed the therapy, which I had already paid for. All because she got a "No" to a trivial thing.

So should we just say "Yes" to everything? No, that would make us a slave and perhaps an enabler as well. What she needs is to set a boundary that she can't cross over. But I don't see how to do this when living together. Unless police and the judge are enforcing limits for her on your behalf.

Does that make sense?

I'm unclear whether this is an unofficial partnership or might be a legal union.  Perhaps your next post can be on the Conflicted/Separation board which is focused on those scenarios.  Meanwhile, just in case any of this applies, here are a few interim thoughts...

Very important, understand that intimacy can result in pregnancy.  With that in mind, take charge of what is in your power to avoid enabling her to avoid contraception methods.

Loose lips sink ships - a motto in WW2 days - applies at this time.  Your natural inclination is likely to share your updated plans.  Please be fully aware that sharing such information with her could give her the power to sabotage you.  Yes, all of us had "fair notice" inclinations but anytime we blurted poorly timed confessions, ouch, we paid the price.  First get your ducks in a row, only then you can ask your lawyer what you can say.

Same goes for interviewing and selecting a proactive, experienced family law attorney (lawyer or solicitor).  This is where it is smart - crucial - to do so privately and confidentially.  If you feel the urge to share anything with your spouse, consult your lawyer first.  Without fail.  (My divorce lawyer told me his first task was to sit on his new clients because anything they said without approval was likely to add to his billing.)

Setting aside the financial issues, it is good you have sessions with a psychologist or counselor.  BPD is a mental health disorder that greatly impacts close relationships.

One of the best handbooks we can recommend is William Eddy's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  The title speaks for itself.  Remember, this book is for you and your confidential reading.