It seems you are at the point of no turning back with your wife. No longer are you able to pretend that the marriage is going to work out. When we just can't do it anymore with the disordered person/people in our life, we naturally start to set boundaries that are going to get a lot of pushback. It is so hard to maintain that balance of what is just going to come out because you can't do it anymore which gives your wife a heads up that something has changed in your relationship, and she will definitely act out to the changes.
When I hired a lawyer to deal with some legal issues with my sister with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), I refused to have any direct contact with her, despite her continuously sending me letters through her lawyer. You are living with your wife, so you do have direct contact with her. It might make sense to tell her the new boundaries and then walk away without staying involved in her meltdowns, letting her know she is in charge of her dysregulated emotions. Clearly there is no point in letting her know about the divorce proceedings until you have your ducks in a row, your finances organized, and are in agreement with your lawyer on how and when to proceed.
Good job in finding a lawyer who understands high conflict divorces! Your lawyer is probably going to advise you to reveal as little as possible to your wife. My lawyer did not share nearly anything with my sister's lawyer whereas her lawyer who came from a top law firm, seemed to think that intimidating me was the way to go and it did not work. I was way to aware as you are, that there is no such thing as any kind of peaceful reasonable negotiations with an extremely disordered person.

Maybe you are right. However she monkey branched and was in the relationship with her boyfriend straight after our breakup. Whether empty nest syndrome played a part, as she likes to mother children. She would look after other people’s children as well as our own quite often when they were growing up and even wanted to adopt a friends child that was being abused. And now the relationship she is in her partner has a son the same age as our youngest but has autism, and a younger child that was 14 years old when she started that relationship (the father would leave the 14 year old at home alone over night while he stayed at my ex’s house) so I guess the amount of children can be included in the enough not being enough too.

I had a little chat with my son last night, as I’ve mentioned in my other thread the problems he had the other week and has gone away this morning for a few days abroad with his mum.

The first Christmas we had split up, she asked my son if he wanted her to wrap the Christmas presents he had bought. He told her he wanted her to, but she completely ignored them but wrapped all his kids presents up instead, which kind of relates to your last comment. I did read one of your posts recently about your mother befriending a girl a similar age to you and the way that made you feel which I guess is quite similar.

So she was supposed to go away with her boyfriend but he apparently couldn’t go so she asked our son instead. What he did say last night was that he wasn’t sure they are getting on too well and she doesn’t seem happy. She has told me in the past that his youngest son is a little [very strong expletive] and told her sister fairly recently that both his kids do her f’ing head in.
However, my son gave his youngest son a lift recently and said he seems very downbeat but a good kid. He has given up playing sports and doesn’t want to do anything any more. I asked him how he felt when he knew my ex and I were suffering from drug addiction, and he felt the same way, depressed and neglected but since splitting up with my wife we have a far better relationship, I am living a far healthier life and he is much better off living with me instead of his mother.

My fear is I am certain they are both addicted still and it is now starting to have a detrimental effect on his kids. It is them I feel most sorry for as I’m afraid they are pawns in her, or their mental illness.

If it helps, I found that logical discussions with my mother about money weren't effective. What drove her behavior was some kind of emotional need of hers. It seemed similar to an addiction- and all addictions are about seeking relief of emotional distress. She perceived proposed restrictions to her spending as somehow "hurting her", it was like trying to take alcohol or drugs away from an addict. Her needs were like a craving for her.

I mention this because, if logical discussions about finances with your wife haven't been effective so far, they probably won't be. Taking action to protect your finances is likely to be more effective than trying to reason with her.

My BPD mother had this behavior. I think it is common with BPD.

My own explanation for this is that pwBPD don't perceive their sense of discomfort as coming from themselves- an internal sense of discomfort. They project it on to something external- from victim perspective, someone or something else is the reason for it. They would also see something external as the solution. Their perceived "need" for this is intense, persistant, they have to have it because they believe that will solve their internal feelings- either their poor self image, or emotional distress, or need for affirmation.

However, the external "need" isn't enough because it isn't the actual solution. They may feel a sense of temporary relief but then the focus becomes something else they need. The needs may not make sense to us as the reason given for them isn't the actual reason. It doesn't make logical sense that someone who already has a car would "need" another one, but the need is emotionally based and emotions aren't logical.

My impression about Rowdy's ex and the puppies is that joint ownership of the puppies met an emotional need in the relationship. Maybe a way to make it feel more secure. Now that she's in a relationship with someone else- they have new puppies. The other dogs no longer meet this need for her.

It's not about the object or the puppies themselves, it's about what meets a need and if it doesn't meet a need, interest in it wanes.

I’m trying to make sense of this girl I was seeing and whether she might have BPD traits. I’ve dated someone before who clearly did (suicidal threats, massive fear of abandonment, really unstable relationships), so I kind of know what that can look like, but with this girl, I’m not sure.

She does tick a few boxes since she can get paranoid, she seems impulsive, and she’s fallen out with loads of friends (she told me she’s lost a lot over the years). She also has an eating disorder. The weirdest part for me, though, is how much she lies. She told me she never lies, but I kept catching her out, and then she’d just say that it was obvsiouly a joke and how I am the one who can't be trusted.

What throws me off is that the fear of abandonment doesn’t really seem to be there. If anything, she’s the one who drops people and moves on to another guy straight away. She also constantly put me down and insulted me even though we were only seeing each other for about a month. It was insanely intense. Sometimes she’d straight-up lie about things I’d supposedly done in the past to make me look like the bad guy, and she’s even admitted she’s manipulated men before.
She was also obsessed with me and her having “low body counts,” which doesn’t add up because she tried to sleep with me on the second date, so it makes me wonder if she’s lying about that too. Now she’s in my college class, so I see her all the time, and since she dumped me she doesn’t even look at me.

Another weird thing is how pretty she thinks she is and tells herself but then she has insane body dysmorphia and is constantly judging and making little comments at every girl she sees whos overweight or not that pretty. She judges EVERYONE who walks by her.

On top of all that, she told me she dated her therapist (a 26-year-old woman) when she was 16, even though she says she’s straight. Honestly, nothing about her story fully adds up, and it really messes with my head because the intimate moments were amazing, and sometimes she genuinely seemed sweet and caring.

I'm. not 100% sure why I am writing on this forum, I guess I would like some sort of clarity on if she is a borderline or narcissist or if anyone can relate to the lying and how judgemental a borderline partner or ex has been. It is strange because having previously dated a clear borderline before this new girl is confusing me and my nervous system has been completely in tatters and I am not sure how to deal with it since I still see her in class 4 times a week.

These are good questions for me to ponder, thank you for them. Yes, she has supported me with her remote job as we've moved abroad to another country. So I definitely have some dependency/feeling of being both indebted and grateful.

In part, I think the grief is over the good things I may be losing - we're deeply connected intellectually and could talk and joke for hours, we've been through so much together (idk, could be a trauma bond, but we've also supported each other), and she has a novel and artistic approach to the world. It's also my first really long relationship, and I found that I liked the camaraderie and the feeling of knowing someone deeply.

But also in that deep knowledge of her, I'm coming up against this strong sense that I'm not capable of facing and sustaining the turmoil. We've been to couples therapy, tried many breaks, different living arrangements, different relationship structures, a few moves, etc. And I just don't feel okay anymore. There's a lot of sadness that arises for me in sensing that I take the turmoil very hard - it hits on my depression and family history, and as I've recoiled from the conflict, my feelings of safety and desire within the relationship have withered. I would've liked to be the person that could handle this, I think - for her sake, and for the part of me that wants to be able to do relationships on hard mode (another desire arising from my family system). But I don't feel a lot of willingness anymore, and she is in a stage where she doesn't think the BP tendencies are a factor. Makes me feel hopeless and isolated in the relationship. Anyway, that's what I'm currently mulling over.

Very common.. and probably one of the main symptoms of BPD.

It all comes down to identity and security - or rather, their lack of it. They don't know who they are and can change their wants and needs literally by the minute, as their emotions dictate. We non-BPD's have some sense of who we are and what we want from life - yes, sometimes we can also change our minds and maybe make the odd rash decision but by and large we have it under control, have a plan and can follow it, whereas the BPD can't.

Hence nothing ever being enough for them, be that love.. ambition.. life goals, etc.  They'll flick from idea to idea constantly, They want things then promptly discard them, they make grand plans which fall apart very quickly as their mood changes.  In short, nothing - and nobody - is ever enough to satisfy them or make them feel secure.  Bit like someone with a hobby who flicks from one project to the next without ever completing anything.

They're constantly hunting for something they can never have and be content with. Massively frustrating for the non-BPD partner.

I'm focusing on this quote from Pook075 :

"They just want to feel loved and supported in every interaction. They want to feel like they matter and they're seen."

I will paste an interaction below that was a complete game changer. She was again screaming for help, asking to stay here for a weekend because her mother stresses her out. And a single answer I did completely flipped the angry pattern that she had been showing for days.

---

Her: HOW ARE WE GOING TO SOLVE THIS??? THIS WOMAN GETS DRUNK AND WANTS TO HOLD MY DAUGHTER
HOW ARE WE GOING TO SOLVE THIS?
Because I'M ABOUT TO DO SOMETHING CRAZY HERE
???
You're going to avoid responsibility, aren't you!

Me: no

Her: Your problem is only seeing me for 30 minutes

Me: I would like to be respected

Her: Respected for what?
Can you be clearer?
"no" what?

Me: The "no" is for that --> You're going to avoid responsibility, aren't you!

---

After this, she immediately cooled off, stopped sending frantic messages, and switched back to being warm with me again, calling me love. Then she began to question that I said days ago that I had said that I was not making any effort, so I answered this:

---

Me: You're making a big deal out of nothing. You know very well that I'm moving mountains for you.

Her: But why did you say that then, dear?
You hurt me.
Do you agree that you said it just to hurt me?

Me: No, I didn't mean to hurt you. I'm sorry if it did. But I only said it so you would stop digging up problems we don't have anymore.

Her: Okay.
Soon I will be there, ok?
We can lunch at the bar, if possible.

---

At this point I was resisting allowing her to be here, but since she was now treating me with respect and being humble, I decided to give in. Some time later, I got a bit frustrated in the conversation because she had not scheduled her therapy yet and was eating bread despite being gluten sensitive, so I almost gave a bad response and went back on my decision, but I thought twice and didn't mess it up. Because I reminded myself that she is just needing to feel supported.

She postponed it, so today I got just our boy, and tomorrow she might come, but for only one night.

Hi DesertDreamer,

Yes, a single bedroom makes it harder to have space. On the other hand, having two comfortable bedrooms and a full-time job out of the home would help to have some space (to some degree).

Having temporary distancing from time to time is always helpful for relationships with a BPD partner. So when you end your stay, you might feel like things have improved, but you must know this is temporary.

Are you feeling guilt because you feel responsible for her? Or is it because she has supported you in some form?

And is your grief related to some kind of fear of being lonely or not being able to be in a relationship with someone else that fulfills you as much?

In my first relationship, I had this strong fear. But over time I understood that new partners always come naturally and quickly when you are ready. I also understood that being fulfilled is kind of easy; you just need to invest emotionally in your partner, and you'll be reciprocated.

Hi Zoogman ,

I see how difficult it's being for you. She unconsciously tries to initiate a conflict by stating some discussion that should elicit negative responses from you, and to nullify her attempt, you must respond positively instead. It's not just your words, it's your attitude and feelings expressed.

But it seems like you still love her, do you? Because focusing on this feeling is key. As I'm learning from Pook in other threads, showing that you love her in every interaction and that you are there for her will disarm her and avoid conflicts. And this makes sense to the neurobiology because feeling loved also stimulates the EOS, along with other pathways.

Maybe you are now feeling overwhelmed by negative emotions, but it is possible to have multiple emotions at the same time for a person, and you can try to focus on the one that works for her. Then use that to guide your interactions. Recently I have done that, and I got excellent results, completely disarming my wife.