The fact that you are here asking questions……. nah, you’re not a narcissist. A narcissist wouldn’t give a flying f… it would just be out the door, on to the next victim. Their grandiose sense of self and lack of empathy means they simply don’t care. They certainly wouldn’t be sitting in their car crying, so get the idea that you are a narcissist out of your head.

It is a spectrum, and EVERYONE is on it to an extent. We all have certain narcissistic traits but at a normal level it is healthy, otherwise you would just become a doormat and get trampled on by everyone.

Like the pair of you, I was married to my wife for 23 years. And as Pook says, if you mention any concern of mental health problems on their part or call out their behaviour then you get the narc card levelled at you. Now, I didn’t get that to the extent you seem to have thrown at you, but from my own point of view, and yes it did make me question if I am narcissistic, if I really was one there is not a chance I would have put up with my wife’s behaviour for the 27 years we were together. And when I was discarded in quite cruel circumstances I would have destroyed her in seconds, but I didn’t because I am not a narcissist. And neither are you.

No!! You would also have to take your son with you. Yes, your D would be able to choose but keep a space for her or have her move on campus. It's likely she may change her mind if she chooses to stay with her mother.

I had not stayed in the same house alone with BPD mother for decades. We always visited as a family- and sometimes stayed there with both my parents. Then, when my father was in the hospital- I went to help with him but he was being taken care of in the hospital. Instead, I was in the house alone with BPD mother whose needs were constant and she was frequently dysregulated.

Her behavior was so erratic and it was so stressful I decided not to  stay in my parents' house after that, I stayed in hotel when I visited. I needed to have an emotionally safe space to go to.

It's standard advice for DV that leaving someone is the most dangerous time for the partner because the person will dysregulate and escalate their abusive behavior, their destructive behavior. You know there's already poor boundaries and alcohol use involved too.

IMHO, people and possessions that are important can not remain in the same space under these circumstances.

Not Wendy!  Thank you for the valuable advice....I love the "don't like rent free in my mind"!  I am guilty of that!  I think of that sometimes....whatever the negative feeling is....well, don't DWELL on it!  Thank you!

Hi there,

I'm glad to hear your son has found a stable employment situation.  I have a couple of perhaps offbeat ideas for you.  The pwBPD in my life is younger, but your son is more mature, and he might benefit from a more "mature" approach.

One thing you might do is frame therapy as "executive coaching," something along these lines:  I'm so proud of you for landing your new job, and that it seems to be working really well for you.  I can't help but wonder if the increased pressures and responsibilities might feel overwhelming sometimes--I know I've felt both excited and overwhelmed with every new job situation.  One thing I've heard about is for senior employees like yourself to get executive coaching at this phase in their careers.  These experts can help with all sorts of things like handling stress, resolving conflicts, increasing mindfulness, processing strong emotions and enforcing healthy boundaries.  It would be nice if you could think about getting support like that, because we could all benefit from learning new skills.  I think it would set you up for success to get support like that . . .

I'd add that my younger brother, who is extremely successful professionally (he's a CEO at a young age), got the help of an executive coach, and he felt it was life-changing.  The coach didn't really talk about business, but rather the types of things I mentioned above.

Another off-beat thing I did for the pwBPD in my life was create an AI-generated podcast.  I fed the AI module her resume (last name and personal details excluded), a job description she aspired to, and one of her cover letters.  Well, AI created a FABULOUS podcast about all her qualifications and made a compelling story about her.  I shared it with her, and I think she really liked it, because she hadn't thought about herself in such a positive way before.  There was something about the fact that it was a "podcast," rather than ideas coming directly from me.  You see, I think sometimes she discounts what I say, because there's so much emotional baggage.  Hearing an "impartial" voice sounds a lot more convincing.  Maybe you could do something similar, like provide your son's resume and a prompt like, Executive training and therapy to support a professional in the middle of his career, and see what sort of "podcast" comes out.  I can send you a link to the website if you like.  When I prepared the podcast, I asked the pwBPD in my life to sit down with me.  I said to her, I asked AI to create a podcast about you, please just listen to it with me.  Give it a chance and 5 minutes, OK?  I promise, it will be interesting. 

All the best to you.

Hi Pook and thank you for taking the time to give me your advice.
I really appreciate it

Thanks for all the comments.

NW, CC43, Pete, others - I absolutely am going to prepare to be ready with a lawyer if I need to. I do "hope" mediation is possible but also know the reality that it's not likely to happen.

CC43 - you hit the nail on the head!
I have this exact thought often... if she treats me this bad while we're married how bad is it going to get when I file for divorce and we aren't together. I think this is where my disaster vision goes. Thinking of every off ramp and options and what she might say, how I can counter act it. I sit and think that people I know and love may be convinced I'm an abuser!! She is so bloody convincing and charismatic. I feel like I have to have my years of recordings ready to go and share with people if I'm asked or confronted. I want to be able to refute with others if she starts spreading rumors... I don't want to be aggressive but I also don't want to sit and take it if people are calling me angry for all my supposed wrong doings for the years.

In addition to interviewing divorce lawyers starting Jan I've already reached out to a guardianship lawyer to setup a consultation on under what conditions one of the joint guardians can be removed... If I do that then divorce filing will probably be right after.

Gems: My files are all stored and backed up on the cloud. My wife doesn't have the password for my laptop. She's an extremely 'untechnical' person. She needs me to assist her at times for even simple tasks like creating a file folder... I have checked credit reports recently. All my audio and videos get removed from my phone after I back them up in a secure location. Thanks for all those suggestions, there are so many little things that we don't think of.

My W's choice to work none, P/T or F/T is 100% her choice. Our kids have been in school and don't require any care from her. I take care of all the main daily household functions - groceries, cooking, cleaning up. I take care of all my son's needs (and daugthers) and generally - he is fairly independent in some ways and is in a job training program about 30 hours a week. If someone needs a doctor or dentist appt - I set it up and take them, I do the running around and shuffling. My daughter knows if she needs help with transportation or if she needs a car to come to me, mom is a last resort.

She could work F/T with either of her p/t jobs but hasn't. It's taken 8 years from her to go from not working to taking a few private clients to working a few hours a week consulting to now working maybe 35 hours a week. Throughout that whole time she hasn't needed to stay home for any reason other then not wanting to work and feeling entitled to apparently stay at home, sometimes start day drinking and lounge around. She's working much more now then she was years ago but it's taken her so long to get here. And even though she's making more money then she has in our marriage, the % of contribution to the household is extremely low... Even if she worked more hours and F/T there's no guarantee she would contribute anything more.

-----------------------------------
I mean I feel silly for bringing this up but wanted to broach if cohabitation would even be possible if I file for divorce? I'm thinking of things like increased internal security cameras, (I already have a keyed lock on the spare room). Minimal contact and moving out any important items ahead of time, and locking everything else I need in the spare room (which would also have security cameras recording to the cloud). Keep an audio recording on at all times if she's present.

Here's the thing - I won't leave the kids with her, especially my son. My daughter could choose but I want sole guardianship of my son so I'm not about to leave him with a woman who is mentally ill and has a history of behaviors. I am going to ask the guardianship lawyer about the legality of moving our son with me if I left. My uBPDw is currently a joint guardian so I don't think I could decide that on my own. Also, I have no savings, none yet. I'm going some extensive cuts in Jan and will start saving but it will take a long time to get anything meaningful and I'm hoping to get enough to just cover for legal fees. I can currently just afford to keep the house afloat now. But it would not be possible for me to pay for another place and the house. And if we were divorcing - it's not like she would pay anything more towards the house. Even if I left, she wouldn't pay the mortgage. And I wouldn't want to lose the house as it's our only asset aside from some retirement accounts. The only way I could finance leaving would be to drain a lot of my retirement accounts and not sure how long that would last (I may have to tap into some of that for the divorce anyway).

The ideal situation would be she just leaves and can't be in the same space if I file or I contact the police again. I hate thinking like this but the other real possibility, it's inevitable, that is that it's only a matter of time before she rages and explodes resulting in some sort of physical aggression where I would be justified to call the police. It could be the justification for a TRO. I wanted to consult a lawyer (once I find one) about a TRO and how that might work long term, etc. I really hate that idea but it might come to that.

It is strange I still feel somewhat bad about thinking of something like a TRO? We have no family or even close friends that she could stay with if a TRO was issued. She would have to get a hotel temporarily and find an apt or something. I don't want her out in the street without help and I would even be willing to help her get a place setup, etc. I just don't want the crazy in the house any more.

Hello and welcome- there's no easy answers here since you're not getting what you'd prefer.  But honestly, I don't see any choice other than having the holidays with your kids at home.

Why?

If it was one adult kid, then I'd say to make everyone get together.  But if it's multiple kids who have cut her out of their lives completely, that's a very tough pattern to ignore.  You love who you love, I get that, but in my book the kids always come first.

However, if you were to marry...or even get engaged...then I'd be the adult in the room and ask everyone to sit down and talk things out.  Family is not about right or wrong, it's about being an actual family and extending forgiveness.  I don't know what happened in the past or who did what, but you can't have an actual family with all of this in limbo.

I agree with you that in order to take the next step, something has to give.  Your kids have every right to feel how they feel, but hopefully there's a compromise somewhere.

Hello and thanks for sharing!

In my opinion, there's no right or wrong answer here. 

If you want to reach out, reach out...as long as you temper expectations.  She could hate you, or she could want to marry you.  We have no way to know so you have to be prepared for anything (including no response at all, which is sometimes the hardest thing).

For your options, I think #3 might be too bold if you just showed up out of nowhere.  Option #1 could work or it could backfire, depending on her mood that day.  That leaves option #2, which feels the safest and most respectful.

I hope that helps!

First off, welcome to the family and I'm so sorry we're meeting under these circumstances.  What you've been through is horrible and I experienced only a small fraction of what you have in my 23 year marriage.  I saw the same patterns, received the same accusations, but never to the degree you're seeing it.

You posted in the bettering forums, which means advice will be geared towards saving your marriage.  But truthfully, in your situation it wouldn't matter what your intentions are, because there's a very clear path ahead.  You need to actually take the time to heal and overcome the decades of manipulation you've faced.

Just so you know, a narcissist would almost never think about if someone was calling them a narcissist...they'd explode and scream (sot of what your wife does to you...).  A narcissist is incapable of genuine empathy because it's always about them, every word, every action, every second of the day is self-serving.  They can mimic empathy if it's self-serving, but generally it's short lived.

Why am I saying this?  If you think you're a narcissist because your wife said so, then you're probably not.  My BPD ex wife of 23 years said the exact same thing.

BPD and NPD are closely tied on the spectrum, and people who are diagnosed with one often have some traits of both.  If your wife is continually trying to convince you how horrible you are, despite what you do to make things right, that feels like textbook narcissism to me.

Your goal here is simple- realize that you're responsible for you, and your wife is responsible for her.  You can't "fix her" or convince her to get help, but you can certainly decide to get yourself in a better headspace to heal from this abuse.  It's fantastic that you're starting therapy and having someone to talk this out with.  That's crucial.

Now, what to do about your wife. 

You made a boundary and she pushed back...which is what just about anyone with mental illness would do when you stand up for yourself.  But your boundary was hollow, you didn't follow through.  Even though you physically left home, you allowed her to call and message you non-stop.  She was punishing you for trying to punish her (at least what she viewed as punishment) and ultimately, she won because you allowed her to drive you to a breakdown.

And again, I'm so so very sorry you're going through this.  I'm guessing you posted here though because you're looking for answers to change these patterns.

All I can say is, stick to your boundaries.  Use "me statements" whenever possible like, "I need some space.  I'm not okay right now.  I can't ague anymore."  That's a lot better than, "I need to get away from you...I'm tired of you starting arguments over nothing."

When the "me statements" don't work, then move to boundaries.  You walk away and if necessary, you turn your phone off.  If you come home to fireworks, go back to "me statements" like "I don't feel safe here and the kids shouldn't be here either."  You're saying all this as patiently and as lovingly as possible, which I know is crazy difficult in your situation.  But you must de-escalate and walk away if that's not an option.

Your wife need therapy and possibly medication, but you're literally helpless to convince her.  She has to want to change, and the only way that happens is if she's faced with a realization that something is very wrong internally.  BPDs blame everyone and everything to avoid seeing that the problem is within, so this is super common.  Compassion and healthy boundaries are the best tools you have to help her long term (even if she pushes back and things are temporarily worse).

My heart breaks for you- I was in the same position three years ago.  I was devastated, broken, and so lost.  My faith is what helped me turn everything around and respond to my wife the right way.  Our marriage didn't survive, and my ex still denies that she has anything wrong.  But others have noticed and the same patterns are forming in her life all over again.  I mention that to say that none of this is your fault...it would have happened regardless who your wife was married to. 

The problem, my friend, is mental illness.  Please accept that this is not your fault at all.

Hello -

My adult children have told me that they will not come for the Christmas holiday if my partner is in the house. She doesn't live with me and has her own home, but expects to spend Christmas as a family. When she did live with us as a family, it was very volatile and the children watched me maneuver some not so great interactions. They also feel that she manipulated them when they were younger and through therapy, have made the decision as adults not to engage with her. My partner knows this and has given them an apology for all the things that happened in the past. It wasn't specific, and there didn't seem to be any action toward those things not happening again. From my own and my children's perspective, there has been quite a bit of drama, arguing, storming out, etc. on every holiday. When they were kids they didn't have a choice. Now that they are adults they do.

My partner would like to get married and I am unwilling partly because my relationship with my children is very important to me. They do not like who I become when with her as I have to navigate all the time. To add to things, I have a family wedding to attend over New Years. She was of course invited, but did not want to stand next to me and watch someone else get married when we are not. She is understandably very upset about all of it and I am feeling very guilty about it all.

Any advice you can give is much appreciated!