I remember that feeling very well, that sickness in the pit of my stomach when the phone rang and I knew it was going to be judgmental.  I overcame that to some extent by just not answering anymore.

Now, that did make things 10x worse when I did get home and there would be a huge blowout argument.  But I'd explain that she knew where I was, who I was with, what I was doing, and I arrived home when I said I would.  If she was going to act like I was a horrible person no matter what, then I'd just wait to be accused of being a horrible person once I got home.  I might as well enjoy me night until then if it's the same conclusion no matter what.

Sometimes this worked, sometimes it made things much worse.  I didn't realize it back then but I was essentially setting a boundary- if you use my phone to harass me, then I'm turning the phone off after the first unkind call/text.

With my BPD daughter, she always had to punish someone much, much greater than she was being punished to "teach them a lesson."  I didn't know my wife was mentally ill back then so I didn't understand the need for healthy boundaries, but basically that's what your husband and my ex do occasionally as well.  If they have to heat up their own food and watch TV alone, then you might as well know how miserable they are.  That's not okay though.

Sorry...I meant Dialectical Behavioral Therapy in the above post.

Pook, I've talked about my husband's controlling nature and seeming unwillingness for me to have a balanced life a few times.  Sometimes he admits to jealous feelings, and sometimes he admits he's not being rational.  But mostly, he makes promises not to overreact when I'm away.  You see, many times I go above and beyond to ensure my absence won't inconvenience him, by preparing food for him, and ensuring I'm out for the shortest time possible, and according to a strict plan (with no room for improvisation or deviation).  I'll say, "I'm having dinner with such-and-such girlfriend, you know, she attended our wedding, and we're meeting at this restaurant; since the drive time is 25 minutes each way, I'll be out three hours total, tops.  I left you some lasagna in the fridge, all you have to do is reheat it."  Then he'll say something like, "I can handle it, you know I was a bachelor for years and cooked for myself all the time, don't worry."  Well, that's what he says, no big deal, right?  But as the evening progresses, he typically flips and starts calling me, demanding to know why I don't pick up right away (usually restaurants are noisy and I don't hear my phone in my purse), where I am (I told him already), why I'm gone for so long (ditto), and how horrible I am for leaving him alone with nothing to eat (lie) . . .  He's not like this every time, but maybe 30-50% of the time.  It's happened so often that I'm sick of it, I flinch every time he calls, and I try really hard not to let him "ruin" it for me, but man, he punishes me for daring to leave the home and having a social life.  His issue:  I have a social life "without him."  Of course it's OK for him to have a social life without me, say with his sports and hobby buddies, but he doesn't see the unfairness of it.  And yet, when I invite him to outings, he's reluctant to go.  If he does relent and decides to accompany me, half the time he's a sourpuss and insists on leaving early, for example.  Or he'll pull me aside and chew me out for talking to other people at a party.  Not always, just often, depending on his mood and maybe what I'm wearing or the way I acted, for example if I took "too long" in the ladies' room (where there was a line) . . .

Indeed I do think that this sort of behavior is BPD-like, but he's not BPD the way his diagnosed daughter clearly is.  He doesn't exhibit feelings of hopelessness, he doesn't have disordered/volatile relationships everywhere, he's not impulsive in his actions in most environments, he doesn't self-sabotage, he's not suicidal or self-harming, his identity is solid and consistent, his executive function is extremely high.  I'd say he's somewhat insecure (with me), he's prone to angry outbursts and has some hair-trigger "abandonment" feelings which emerge as bullying.  And when he's agitated, he becomes irrational and petulant with me.

My coping skill is mostly to ignore it.  When I argue back, it gets worse.  I think he knows he's being a jerk but just can't help himself because deep down he's insecure, even though he shouldn't be!  That's what makes it even more confusing.  If he's really toxic and demanding unrealistic things (e.g. a curfew of 5 PM for me), I'll say, "Fine, but if I have a 5 PM curfew, so do you and all the other adults in this household.  I'm not a slave you know."  I know that's not helpful, but it has enabled me to avoid a 5 PM curfew that he continues to try to impose every few months.

I'm doing okay actually, I have got a great group of friends around me for support, and to be honest I do actually feel peaceful without him being around , I can sleep easier (his snoring was off the chart - made massively worse by drinking and the extra weight he's been carrying from just not looking after himself at all) I like coming home to a house that doesn't have an angry man in it and pleasing myself

His emails have ranged from saying what I would normally want to hear to passive aggressive and just plain paranoid

For example last night I emailed him and asked if we could put a plan in place for our dog- she's with him for the moment but is equally ours, he responded that as my message came in a significant song came on and that I had somehow tactically messaged him at a specific time.........he constantly accuses me of being orchestrative.

I'm not engaging at this point with any side swipes or being dragged into circular arguments.  I think I'm feeling the most detached I ever have .  He's told me the help he has been getting is to talk about how he feels- this is not what he led me to believe , I thought it was assessments, this previous round of therapy was my ultimatum last time he kicked off so the fact its not addressing what I thought it was (I was about to say surprising but its not really - his relationship with the truth is fluid).  I think it's taken me forming a support network to really bring things to a head .  He is absolutely vile when he's angry and drunk and disgusts me.

I think this is an important point. BPD affects the most intimate relationships the most, so the dynamics would be more with the intimate partner and immediate family. Living all together in one home would increase the face to face contact between family members. It also affects the partner and family members in that it is harder to maintain boundaries under pressure when in th the same space.

I agree with the concept of "not fighting back" during a verbal accusation. In the moment, the pwBPD believes this and to try to defend onself raises the drama. If it does no good, then there's no point in doing this. The techniques such as JADE can help bring the drama down. If one can sincerely say "I love you and I'm here for you" in the moment, that possibly works too but I think only if one can sincerely mean it as it would be hard to have that come across if one didn't.

I think everyone would wish to be seen as "good" by their partner or family member, but sometimes this role can land on the Karpman triangle. Also, since we can not change someone's thinking, someone can be split- good or bad, according to how the pwBPD feels in the moment, and isn't about something another person can do or say.

In my own situation, knowing I could be split as either in the good position or the persecutor one, I didn't consider this outcome as any measure of me. I could visit and do things for BPD mother and she might still find something to not be pleased with. I had to stay firm in knowing that- however she responded didn't change the intent or action on my part.

BPD mother could be nicer and more "normal" with people who are not as close to her, because, she also had the closer family members with whom she did act out more. Someone could be in "good" position, when someone or something else was in persecutor position.

Being in good position is helpful in that there's some leverage there if the pwBPD needs help with something. My BPD mother's extended family was in "good position".  BPD mother was more likely to be receptive to their advice than mine.

I also was able to hold boundaries better than my father and recognized that he lived with her, and I didn't. So I do believe proximity makes a difference for both people.

In my situation, I don't think I got into many arguments with BPD mother or "fought back". As kids, we weren't allowed to do that. I also at some point decided it was useless. I did yell at her one time, during my father's illness when I was stressed over the situation, and seeing her reaction- I just didn't want to do that again.

Your updates are heartbreaking, but at least it has led to positive steps for your home and your kids.  He clearly crossed a line and if he can't see it (which isn't unusual for mental illness) then he shouldn't be around. 

Maybe this is the thing that helps him realize that things have to change.  Maybe not.  But either way, you've done the right thing by saying "No thank you" to his abuse.

As far as the email accusations go, I would think you'd want to cut that off after sending a very clear message.  You didn't call the police because of your friends.  You called them because he was out of control and you've put up with his abusive behavior for far too long.  Now is the exact time to make that crystal clear...while he's out of the house and trying to win you back.

You might even want to list some of the regular stuff that's out of bounds- slamming doors, the complaining and attitudes, etc.  Now is the ideal time to put all of that in one email, then let him know that if he can't respect these boundaries, you'll block email as well.  It will not be used as a way to abuse you even further.

How are you doing?  What do you need right now?  Talk it out a little more.

After weeks of upda and downs- more like a month, we are now on limited contact.  I went on holiday with a friend and the whole time I was there he was love bombing me , telling me how much I mean to him etc.  He stayed at mine, got to payday- tried to have a non-confrontational conversation about if he'd be staying. 

He did stay , paid a portion of the month.  We even booked a trip together (a week this Saturday).  Everything was okay other than when I went to see friends.  In the short 2 weeks between booking the holiday he had kicked off more or less everytime I went to meet friends , or wasnt back in the time frame he's hoped.

My kids are sick of him shouting and banging doors and behaving like an overgrown toddler.

a week ago yesterday I called the police, my son was home, He was having a tantrum over a perceived rejection (it was the anniversary of my mum passing away, he was being silly and goofy with me and I just said I wasnt in the mood and just wanted to sit quietly watching TV. He lost it, the baked potatoes we bought for dinner he threw and smashed all over the floor, threw the dogs bowl of water over me and was yelling.  Enough was enough, I called the police and they removed him (he wasnt arrested at that point and I havent pursued a complaint at this time.

I have blocked him on everything other than email , he was intoxicated and says he "can't remember" anything and is going to "get help"

As far as I was aware he was already under therapy- I've asked for clarification and he's been fairly vague .  I pointed him in the direction of the Respect helpline UK for the abusive behaviour and that's not been an avenue he feels he needs to purse (it 100% is because he is abusive)

I've said I cannot have his instability around my children and any contact is contingent on seeking help and continual behavioural change, not vague reassurances because my trust is too damaged.  He has been abusive many times and promises are short lived .  I'm sure I'll be a c**t again tomorrow, he's just too unstable to deal with.

I cannot see this vacation being enjoyable or safe for me so I'll just have to write off the money and make other plans.

I am drained , he sent me a long email about other people getting involved in our relationship (my friends) being a problem, but the only issue there is they don't like how he treats me.  He refers to them as "the club" and says I keep getting advice from "the club.   No I just dont want to be abused!

Thanks for your reply.

I am well aware of how my FOO has shaped me....alcoholic father, sometimes violent. Codependent and quite reserved mother, but also the one who worked like crazy to protect her six children.

I met my first wife when I was in a Christian phase of my life.  She was an incest victim in her childhood, raised in an environment of drugs and gambling.  She turned to the Church, and stayed faithful through several miscarriages, our separation and her eventual death from breast cancer.

I learned so much from her about kindness, and forgiveness, and gratitude.  I never stopped loving her, but living with her became too difficult.  We were arguing a lot, we were deep in debt, she had not worked for several years and there was a cycle of increasing violence that needed to be interrupted.  We never had children, which was a source of great pain for her.  The truth is that the most painful part of the miscarriages was seeing how much pain it caused her.

After I moved out, I lived alone for more than 10 years.  I was able to rediscover some of the things that I had let go of, like skiing, and camping, and I had a couple of meaningful relationships with women that helped me gain confidence in myself but ultimately failed.  I also did a lot of work on myself during that period, with help from authors like John Bradshaw, Robert Bly and Joseph Campbell.

Years later, I left the US and started over in South America.  I met a wonderful woman who I eventually married.  Her childhood was marked more by neglect than overt abuse.  She was (and still is) a hard worker, supporting her mother and her daughter.  She has always had a turbulent relationship with her daughter and more recently has had some serious emotional outbursts at work.  She has been in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for more than a year and practices mindfulness exercises.

I am not considering separation, but I do want to develop and practice better strategies for managing my own emotions and also supporting my wife on her journey.

I think that's a comparable analogy in that the outcome can be harmful whether motive. The consequence is considered with the safety of society in mind- is this person a danger to others along with a deterrent to the behavior. The judge and the penal system has this power.

Where this differs is that BPD behaviors aren't necessarily technically crimes. Some are- such as physical abuse, but lying, cheating on a partner-there's no legal recourse, or power. The consderation becomes our own selves, our own emotional, physical, and financial safety.

Of interest- I was concerned for my BPD mother in her elder years. She had difficulty with making reasonable decisions. Family members were also concerned and wanted me to seek legal advice for this and from her health care providers. Even with her behaviors, she was considered legally competent in the medical and legal sense, so I could not intervene at all, even if I thought it would have been in her best interest.

In addition, we have the choice when it comes to a romantic relationship- even without there being anything wrong with the other person. Someone could be a great person- just not a good fit for you. Given the choice, you don't have to choose between motives for behavior, you can choose to not get involved with someone who you see has these behaviors.

Hi AlwaysAnxious
Thanks for your post. I think it’s really helpful to have actual examples – and I have given these a lot of thought.

I ended up working backwards.

It ends with you being totally to blame for causing her to take her life. She sets a scene where you are waking up to this and the consequences for you.

Or the other path would be DD spelling out that she may as well end her life because you don’t care about her in any way. Once again, you are to blame. It is very interesting that DD has blocked off your ability to call 911 because she explicitly says that she will do it without you knowing.

It seems as though the trigger is that you attempt to draw a line in the sand when DD is yelling abuse etc. You try to be just a little assertive – and that opens another avenue of blame etc for DD.

I really smiled when I came to the words ‘It’s all about you – I can’t tell you how many times I have heard those words when I have tried to assert even some other fact than the one my DD is presenting.

I think it is this moment that needs looking at as far as your response goes. Personally I disagree with the therapist in that I think it is predictable how things will go if we intervene with these kinds of statements. I mean intervening in such a huge emotional process.

Things changed for me when I finally realised that all the verbal abuse and blame etc was not about me at all! Once I realised that this is what BPD looks like and my DD was in a total emotional meltdown, that her sense of self couldn’t handle the experience and I was just a safe target to dump on. So years ago I told DD that when she was having strong emotions I would not engage much because it wasn’t fair to her – she needed time to allow the emotions to reset.

I followed through with that – apart from affirmation if I felt it would help and be appropriate. It has been much better and I have appreciated the couple of times DD has said how she hates dumping on me, or telling me to give her space because she is feeling like she is going to dump on me.

To let these outbursts take their course is quite challenging – and believe me my DD’s outbursts against me are just shocking! It is true we can only work on our part in things and I think to focus on yourself is the best solution ie working on things such as:

-   How developed is my own sense of self?
-   What is behind the response I feel to DD’s words? Do I really think I would be responsible? Have I ‘let go’ to the extent where I can see my ‘self’ and life as separate from DD’s
-   Can I hold my sense of self when all this is being thrown at me?
-   Do I know, deep down in my heart, that should DD act on these words that I would not be responsible?

My journey with my DD and BPD has shifted over the many years from desperately wanting to help DD have a happier, more fulfilled life to seeing that all this is a challenge to me – my need to let go, to value my life too – and to know that I can’t really change anyone but myself. This is how I love my DD.

I am not sure all this makes sense but it has been helpful for me.