It is very common for the other parent's family to be cast as horrible and the other parent pressured to increasingly disengage from them.

In my case I was married for over a decade while my spouse developed BPD behaviors with periodic rants and rages.  I didn't know much about personality disorders nor how severe and impacting the acting-out ones (Narcissistic, Borderline, Antisocial, Histrionic) could be.  I was clueless and hoped that if we had a child, then she would be much happier watching our child discover the joys of life.  Reality check.  As soon as our child was born, there was a divide between us.  I thought she felt she had to choose between me or her child and I lost.  Then it worsened when he became a preschooler, the same age as when her stepfather entered her life.  I started getting compared to that abuser.  It was only years later that I have since concluded that her Family of Origin (FOO) childhood environment resulted in her perceiving me as a Father figure rather than as a Husband.  (Perceptions, feelings and moods mean more to pwBPD than facts and reality does.  That part of the reason why BPD is so very intractable and difficult to treat.)  There was no way I could "fix" that.  Our marriage imploded just as I learned about this site.

While initially our friends were rejected (or they stepped away from the dysfunction) it soon expanded to include my relatives, even my parents in their 80s, and eventually me as well.

There are two views about how the children are impacted by their parents' divorce.  Keep in mind, first, that the decisions about the adult relationship are not up to the children.  Therefore, the children need to be kept out of the adult conflict.  Kids should not be put in the middle.  More or less, kids don't want to choose one parent or the other.

Their mother is claiming that a divorce will harm the children.  Yet there are millions of children who have divorced parents.  Maybe their lives aren't optimal, a positive and united family environment is generally the best case scenario.  But consider the conflict, especially the continued high conflict... that has a huge impact on children.  Continuing the existing framework is not a recipe for success.

On the other hand, what impact does divorce have when the constant tensions are reduced, when parents lives separately, and the children aren't so directly exposed?  The conflict and chaos won't be so omnipresent in their lives.  The children will benefit, especially since they will over time notice the contrast between a normal home versus a dysfunctional one.


That's why we recommend that the more reasonably normal parent seek and strategize to gain as much custodial authority and parenting time scheduled and from the very start.  Why?  Our sort of BPD divorce cases usually take one or even two years.  If we start off with a lousy temp order then it means the children suffer that much longer before the divorce ends in a final decree.  And the risk is that the court will conclude that if a lousy temp order seemed to "work" for that long then it may morph from temporary to final.

Likely your children would benefit from counseling, if they're not already in counseling.  (Your ex might oppose that, but court would likely side with you.  As my lawyer told me years ago, "Courts love counseling.")  Your example - and the input of counselors, even school counselors too - will help the children to be balanced in their selection of mentally healthy relationships in their own lives as they mature and grow into adulthood.

Thankyou Notwendy that’s a very helpful perspective from someone who has been through it
I’m uncertain what the future holds  my son is emphatic that he’s done - but he does have a good kind heart
However she is re engaging in therapy and taking her meds
Understand that it’s a lifelong struggle for her - but with ongoing therapy and boundary setting there could be a glimmer of a future - my heartfelt wish is for her to progress forward with therapy realising she has something golden in her hands- the baby is an innocent and thus far blank canvas and for her babies and families sake she can learn to move forward
Will support my son and granddaughter however the future might proceed.
In time my feelings towards my DIL will settle but I probably won’t be able to fully trust her again - I can put on a good act BUT I will set boundaries here

We are moving to separate addresses next week. I'm looking forwards to it, but also I'm terrified by how it will turn out for the children.

We are packing things up. Predictably my wife feels entitled to take whatever she feels like - "You have chosen to break up the family, so I have every right and you just need to face the consequences of your own actions". We don't have much of anything of real worth, and I've moved most items of emotional value to my secret storage box in advance, so I should be fine just letting things move along. I know this, but still realize the injustice of it is making me angry. She feels so entitled and sees me as deserving no rights. Today I boiled over and argued with her about it, which obviously was unhelpful. Oh well, I'll just need to try and keep the goal in mind from now on. None of these trinkets really matter to me.

Also, predictably, my wife keeps trying to make me call of the separation. Guilting me over how the children will be affected, dismissing my stated reasons for divorce, shaming me for taking the easy way out instead of owning my faults, etc. And every now and then reverting to telling me how much she hates me or how bad person I am or whatever.

One of the items we have agreed I'll take is a large piece of framed art, one of the priciest things we own. I have started to wonder if I will hang it up in my new place, though, because I realize the memory I most closely associate with it is a nasty one. And a good reminder of how our problems are not just me not owning my own faults like she says.
The frame should have a glass, but it's missing. The reason is that some years back my wife smashed it when she was mad at me. She left me to clean up "my mess" (reasoning being, of course, that because I've made her angry enough to do something like that, it's my fault and my mess to clean up) of glass shards from the floor before our pets would stumble in and hurt their paws. As she had hidden my glasses earlier, I couldn't reliably see if I had found all the glass or not. When I pleaded her to check so our pets wouldn't hurt themselves, she refused and suggested I should lick the floor to make sure.

Oh yes, it can be really hard not to "engage" when he's making insults and unreasonable demands.  Sometimes it's more about the the tone of his voice than what he's saying that's upsetting--shouting, sharp, MEAN ("I hate this!!!!/WHERE ARE YOU?!?!?!"), along with shoving things around and making a fuss.  It can take enormous self-control not to start JADEing or fighting.  But I try to remind myself, he's just upset/uncomfortable/tired/frustrated/stressed, and he's taking it out on me.  Try to stay calm and maybe ease his discomfort (Why don't you take a break?  Would you like me to get you some water/ibuprofen/Coke/tea?--in the calmest voice you can muster).  If he says Yes, then he sees you're caring and trying to be nice.  If he says No, he's clinging onto his bad mood, and that's when I try to exit ("OK . . . I need to go to the bathroom").  I'd encourage you to try it, and see how it goes.  I know it's probably harder to do this on the phone.  That's when I usually try to buy time:  "I hear you honey, and I can't really help right now, let me call you back tomorrow/when I get home/after I finish my errand/after dinner."  That's another version of slow walking.

Moms are on the front line with their kids. It's known that all kids act up the most with their mothers because they feel safest to do so. It's not fair that your son acts out with you, but it's because he doesn't have to mask. However, this doesn't mean you tolerate it. You can have boundaries. I had boundaries too.

Being human, I did have times when I lost my cool with BPD mother but learning to be less emotionally reactive to her, took down the drama in the relationship. Consider that trying to change your son might feel invalidating to him, and it also isn't possible. Radical acceptance does not mean the behavior is acceptable, it's that we stop expecting them to be different than who they are.

PwBPD have difficutly with emotional regulation. If you recall when your son was a toddler and wanted a cookie for dinner, he probably had a tantrum, said you were a mean mommy. But you knew the right response was to not give him the cookie. You had to act in his best interest- and not let him have cookies for dinner, even if he didn't like it, even if he tantrumed.

Now switch out the cookie for money. He wants money but it's not in his best interest to enable his poor spending management. He needs to learn to live within his budget. He's going to tantrum but you know what to do that is in his best interest.

As to the baby- she'd be in a similar situation as me, having a mother with BPD. I think it's one step at a time with the baby. Right now, if she's being cared for with the help of her mother's family- she is OK. If I could summarize what was most helpful to me as a child, it's that other stable adults were also involved. If your son is able to have separate parenting agreements- then you two, as his parents will be able to spend time with the baby during his parenting time. If the DIL's mother is involved, the baby will be cared for. For now, your son has some tasks ahead for himself.

The "window dressing" on social media is because, how people perceive them is important to someone with BPD- and actually we all want to be seen favorably by others. If your DIL needs help, it's important to her that she is still seen as a "good mother". My BPD mother was agreeble to having help- I think best presented to her as "you deserve this help" rather than as "you need the help", implying she can't do it on her own. To phrase things in a complimentary way may feel like pandering but pwBPD have a poor self image and so are sensitive to negative comments.

Notwendy,  I've been rereading your reply. It helps my perspective.  I'm saddened by considering my son masks to possibly feel excepted and loved. That his true nature isn't worthy of being loved. I was hoping that possibly he had a good day or experience and he was feeling genuine happiness over it. I would love that he has those moments. Last night's call didn't feel needy, or manipulative as some have. Idk. I am mulling over what you called radical acceptance.  I do know my pain comes from denying reality or trying to control my son. Thank you.

CC43,  I agree about the rash and suggested many of those things. When he was disregulated practical self care advise didn't calm the storm in him though he tried a few things. He did see a Dr finally who put him on prednisone and it's cleared up.
I appreciate your honest life example.  Thank you. You didn't try to change your husband's mood, didn't argue or defend. You stayed true to yourself and kept out of the way until the storm blew over. I will also think about my son's triggers.  For me oprotecting myself from my son's storms when he calls in distress is I think to validate his feelings, be empathetic, let him know I love him. Then I kind of get stuck. How long to stay on the phone when he's spinning out, when he's needing saving from a financial issue...
Anyway, I appreciate both your responses. I'm slowly getting it. I'm not feeling responsible at the moment for his emotions and choices. I feel breathing space.

Thank you for all the advice. It makes perfect sense (in a “dealing with BPD” sort of way. I definitely need to work on not arguing and getting out of conversations before they go on too long. I’ve gotten better, but definitely have a ways to go.

Recently, I saw a post on social media about feelings. A person visiting his T gets upset and says, “my feelings are real!” The T responds. “Yes, but that doesn’t mean they’re based on fact.”

Concisely put. Not something that would be helpful for a person with BPD (at least not during dysregulation), but still accurate, I thought.

I think there are many posters here with similar type situations. I hope to offer some perspective, based on my own experiences. I am the adult daughter of a mother with BPD. Both my parents are deceased after a decades long marriage.

The Karpman triangle was very helpful to me in understanding the behavior. https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

BPD mother was in victim perspective, and my father's main position was as her rescuer/enabler. For the two of them to be aligned like this- someone or something was in persecutor position. BPD mother's interactions with people were from her victim perspective- so "painting someone black" to another person who may be empathetic to her, and align with her was a common pattern. What is said isn't necessarily true. For someone with BPD, feelings feel like facts- so they may feel that way or- possibly be seeking empathy from the person they are venting to. This could explain why your DIL told stories about you to the midwife.

IMHO, and from experience, the most precarious thing about this situation is- that she is acting "normal" and may even be acting especially nice to your son. This is not malicious, it's fear of abandonment, as she may be aware that her behavior could push him away. PwBPD are very sensitive to shame- and so may not apologize or take accountability to avoid this feeling, which is very distressing to them- so instead they may act like "all is good now".

The person who has seen the behavior may second guess themselves and think well she's OK now. Also with my mother, there could be "reasonable" sounding reasons for the behavior- and your DIL may attribute her behavior to hormones and post partum. That may be a preciptating factor- but that doesn't mean her behavior was reasonable. It can give the impression that this was a one time event, but BPD is not a one time issue.

Why are you and your wife in a most precarious situation?- because, you are "on" to her and also because, next to her, you have the most influence on your son, her husband. Often the non BPD spouse's family members are likely to be placed in the persecutor position on the Karpman triangle.

You have no control over your DIL's feelings and your son will make his own decisions. Ultimately he will need to be the one who decides to carry out his plans and while you wish to be of support to him, keep the Karmpan triangle in mind and try to keep the drama in your interactions with her down, and keep your interactions with her positive- stay cordial, not emotionally reactive, even if you feel otherwise.