I saw clips of Jaafar on YouTube. He's a very talented person! Thanks for letting me know what you thought as a fellow fan.   The emotion is something you can't remove from it. Fans can't either. It was so unfair. I don't know if Jaafar knew his grandfather. Katherine is still alive so he must have heard it from her, his dad Jermaine and uncles/aunts. I can't wait to see the movie. I'm glad the videos from Bad and Thriller and the early Jackson 5 TV performances are on YouTube.

Did you see MJ The Musical? I would have never heard about it without YouTube. The touring company came through my city but it was sold out quickly.   Myles Frost did a great job & he won a Tony for the role. Clips are on YouTube.

I don't know if the musical handled his upbringing.

The late Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys was also abused by his father who coached him, his brothers and a cousin when they were a up and coming band. Brian Wilson had a nervous breakdown and then was abused by a psychologist who took over his life and bank account.

Both fathers were amateur musicians. I don't know if the extreme coaching was partly out of envy or to live vicariously (enmeshment) through their sons - both musical prodigies.

The bpd character in Jules & Jim is the quiet type. The director shows her angry face (Catherine) in freeze frames, innovative at the time, so you don't miss it. The entire movie revolves around Catherine and her manipulative, chaotic behavior. You feel something is missing in scenes without her. The story is flat and dull.  You miss the drama too.  The filmmaker (Francois Truffaut)  is clever to make you feel like the trauma bonded Jules & Jim.


Many languages, not Modern English, have a formal and informal you. If you've taken a foreign language you see this. The formal you is used for strangers, a plural, out of respect and older relatives including parents. In college I took a language in the same language family as my parents spoke. I realized then all my cousins addressed their parents in the formal you but I used the informal you. I called her mom or mama. I never called her mother.  I asked my mom why and she said she chose that. It could be enmeshment, wanting a friend or parent and not a child? It wasn't a standard of the language.

It's interesting you called your mother by her first name behind her back. You wanted to separate yourself and create stability for yourself.

I couldn't get away from my mom as a kid. My brother went to a boarding high school when I was 8. I wasn't allowed to have friends. It was just me & her. I couldn't go to our public library that often. I read all the Nancy Drew books our school library had. My mom would let me buy movie magazines and teenybopper magazines in 4th grade like Tiger Beat and 16. I read about the Jackson 5 and other teen acts. I never would have thought they had an abusive parent. I thought they all had charmed lives and were much better off, loved more and treated better than me.

Hello and welcome to the family.  I'm so glad you found us and I've been in the same situation with my 27 year old BPD daughter.  We went no contact several times in her early 20's because it became so toxic; it was what was best for our mental health and I don't regret it.

I don't have any online recommendations for an online therapist so I'll defer to other members here.  Just know that you're not alone here, so many of us have been in (or are in) the exact same situations.  My kid did get better through therapy and DBT, but "better" is a relative term.  Our relationship is far from the same as my other (non-BPD) daughter, but we can talk and have productive conversations now.  She just can't be the center of my life anymore because I don't want to be sucked into her drama.

I’m in need of a recommendation for an online therapist who specializes in providing therapy to family members of a pwBPD. My 23-year-old daughter with BPD has been spiraling and she recently let loose with all manner of vitriol towards me, her mother, and my other adult daughter.Her life is constant chaos and as per usual she says it’s all my fault. The blame, the verbal abuse, the constant hateful and threatening texts and calls are exhausting me. I went silent after she threatened to call and write my employer to report my abuse. I need advice on how to deal with all of this. I am leaning towards NC for a very long time. Any recommendations you can give would be so appreciated.

I think the term is most useful to you, in context of what you wish for in a relationship. Since this one has ended, what can you learn from this?

Some forms of abuse are obvious- physical abuse that leaves marks,  injuries, is obvious. Emotional and verbal abuse is still harmful but hard to prove or even see.

Abusive behavior may not only be in a romantic relationship. It can be with friendships, co-workers, employers, family members.

Where I began to understand what abuse is is when a local DV shelter was selling T shirts for a fundraiser. The statement on the shirt simply said "Love Doesn't Hurt". It didn't define abuse, but made the point that if someone is feeling hurt a lot, and often, in a relationship, or friendship, maybe that relationship is not good for that person.

I think in all relationships, there's some times where someone is hurful to the other person. Maybe they are tired and irritable and say something snappy to them. It's when the hurtful behavior is frequent, or cyclic, and crosses the line- saying something snappy vs name calling, cussing, constant criticism. It doesn't matter what the definition is. If you find yourself feeling hurt a lot of the time. If your partner dismisses it with more criticism "you are too sensitive" or blames you for it- you don't have to accept this.

Whatever anyone calls it- the behavior and dynamics in your relationship with your ex were hurtful to you. It's not only about blame- it can be an observation for you to make a decision about. Labeling your ex's behaviors as abuse doesn't affect your ex but it can be something helpful to you- so if you experience them in another relationship you can decide- this isn't good for you and end it rather than let it go on. You can believe you deserve to be treated decently in any kind of relationship. You are the value in identifying it- you are worth it.

My BPD ex would often feel down and depressed as well, and her answer to feel better was running off to save someone else.  That could be helping her parents do something, one of her brothers, one of her friends, our kids or one of their friends, someone in our extended family, etc.

And on the surface, you'd think that's a good thing, making time to help others.

At the same time though, as her mental illness got worse over the years, she was always on the run when she wasn't at work.  Sometimes the kids were with her, sometimes not.  But she was gone almost every waking hour for nearly a decade in our marriage.  Entire weekends would disappear when we had clear plans.  And if I said something, I'd always get the same answer, "But my brother needed me."  "But my dad wanted me to go with him."  But that woman that I work with wanted me to come by."

So I'd ask, "But what about our plans?  Five weekends in a row, you've disappeared."  Or it was something like, "We've talked about doing this other thing for six months now."

Sometimes it was something simple, like getting groceries together.  Other times, it was visiting something new in our area or fixing something at home.  It was never anything major that I couldn't do alone, but I'd wait all of Saturday on the promise, "I'll be home in an hour or two" and then most of Sunday as well.  The weekend would just vanish with me waiting and waiting, so I wouldn't start anything big because she'd be home any minute now.  Yet she never arrived until 8 PM, 10 PM, or whatever.

Does this sound like abuse?  Maybe no.  But once it happened 10 times, 100 times, 1000 times, I was just as trained as the family dog to sit and stay, to be a good boy.  It was absolutely an abusive pattern and I couldn't see it or understand what was actually happening.

Now, if my wife wanted us to do something and I said I was too busy, it was a very different story.  She'd pout around the house and make it known what a disappointment I was.  Or if I spent a few hours with a friend on occasion, I'd get texts and attitude once I returned home.  That's because we always did what she wanted to do when she felt like being in a relationship with her husband.  It was a massive double standard and I couldn't see it....because abuse requires screaming, hitting, and stuff like that, right?

That's why some of this is so hard to define- it doesn't look like what we'd call abuse by the traditional definition.  Yet it's just as damaging mentally when you're in the middle of it all and it's certainly an abusive pattern.

It helps if a counselor identifies co-dependency but I also think we can comprehend and identify it, but not on an official diagnosis. There isn't a specific medicine for it. Because it involves actions that are also considered to be good ones- helping, being supportive, it's not something one seeks to "cure" or stop completely. The line between helping and helping too much is an internal one- we have to learn to identify it.

The addiction model has been applied to co-dependency and it helps make sense of it. Any behavior can be an addiction and an aspect of that is doing something to one's detriment and not being able to stop. The occasional trip to Las Vegas for fun, or occasionally shopping for something for fun, is not an addiction. Gambling or shopping, to the point of financial ruin, causing family stress- and doing it anyway is. An aspect of co-dependent behavior is doing something for someone that they can do for themselves.

Choosing to do something nice for someone or looking the other way at behaviors at times is not co-dependency. A pattern of doing this to the point of being harmful in some ways possibly is.

A person who is addicted will continue addiction behavior to the point of their own detriment, because- they must still be getting something out of the behavior that is, to them, greater than the negative effect- even if it doesn't seem so to them. The concept of "hitting bottom", when things get so bad, is when they have the chance of choosing to change.

I think, in a relationship with BPD, there's a push-pull to the relationship. The situation may get to a sort of bottom, with the pwBPD doing something that is - in the moment- not tolerable. But also, I think they too have some sense of when they went too far, because if they sense they have- they can also flip to "good" again. Then the "bottom" is gone and the partner's motivation to take action is also gone too. Then it seems "not so bad".

Tolerating BPD mother's behavior was normalized in our family. We were all in the roles of emotional caretaker and helper to her. For me, people pleasing, not having boundaries, tolerating behaviors were learned ones. I had to unlearn them and learn more functional ones.

Another motivation for me to consider the idea of co-dependency was seeing the result of it. Co-dependent behaviors appear to be doing something good but are actually self serving and possibly harmful to the other person in the long run. If the motivation to appease and enable BPD mother is for relief of the situation, it was about us, not helping her. If we did things for her and managed her emotions, she then didn't have the experience of managing these tasks herself and learning how to do that, if it were ever possible.

Some of the things that were tolerated and enabled to the point of harm were- financial damage due to BPD mother's spending and not understanding how to handle money and limits with money, emotional and relationship harm due to abusive behavior and dishonesty. There were no consequences for this behavior and so it continued.  It was cyclic. "Good Mom" would appear right after things may have been bad, and "Good Mom" was great. 

Nobody can fully understand all of a relationship beween two people. From the outside, it appeared to be a high cost relationship for my father and yet, somehow that cost wasn't high enough to take some action- and I don't just mean divorce, it could be standing up for boundaries to start with.

But that was a hard thing to do because, having boundaries with BPD mother resulted in extreme escalation. She could raise the escalation past the point where anyone could tolerate it.  BPD caused her to seriously struggle.  She was in emotional distress and seeking some sort of relief. It was a natural response to want to help relieve it if possible and hard to resist doing. 

So back to you Max, and the idea of co-dependency. I'm not a professional and couldn't "label" you, even if I was. But what we can see from your posts is that things seem relatively stable at times and then, something happens that challenges your own values- harmful behavior to you or others, infidelity, and then, at these times, you feel shocked and hurt, and consider the possibility of ending the relationship but then, things calm down a bit, and it doesn't seem so bad.

However, by tolerating the behavior- you've given up a part of yourself, your own core value, and at the same time, made the behavior allowable for your wife. She can continue it without consequences. While it's given you a reprieve of the behavior, and a temporary relief of discomfort for your wife, it's not a positive for you, or for her in the long run. In this context, the idea of co-dependent behaviors could fit, if you wish to consider it. This is a long term relationship dynamic and if you wish to change it, any change would have to be on your part. It would be a challenge to change it, and a challenge to maintain it but the decision is yours to make in whatever way you decide would work for your situation.

You will find frequent mention of BPD "FOG" on this site and elsewhere.

• Fear ... of threats, pressure, intimidation, disparagement, etc
• Obligation ... which doesn't let us see the dysfunctional relationship objectively
• Guilt ... if we decide the relationship is unhealthy, since we are indoctrinated "It's All Your Fault!"

I’m in the middle of a very painful high-conflict co-parenting situation with my child’s mother, who shows a lot of BPD-type patterns. I’m not looking to diagnose her or turn this into a venting thread, but I am struggling with the emotional reality of watching my child get pulled into adult conflict.

There has been a pattern of instability, blame-shifting, control, accusations, schedule interference, and attempts to frame me as unsafe or harmful. Lately it feels like my child is being put in the middle more directly. I’m seeing signs of fear, obligation, and guilt being created around loving me, spending time with me, or having a normal relationship with me and the people in my life.

I’m doing my best to stay calm, document everything, communicate through appropriate channels, and keep my home emotionally safe and consistent. I don’t speak negatively about his mother to him. I try to validate his feelings without putting adult issues on him. But honestly, it is incredibly painful and scary to feel like the other parent is actively trying to damage the bond.

I’m also moving through the court process now, and I’m wondering if anyone here has actually gotten to the other side of this.

For those who dealt with alienation or a BPD/high-conflict co-parent:

Did court help create stability?
Did having orders, structured custody, parenting apps, reunification therapy, custody evaluations, parenting coordinators, or other safeguards actually make a difference?
How did your child eventually come through the FOG?
Were they able to see reality over time without you having to “prove” everything to them?
How did you maintain your bond when the other parent was working against it?
What helped your child feel safe loving both parents, even if the other parent made that hard?

I know every situation is different, and I’m not looking for legal advice. I’m really looking for stories from people who have been through this and made it to a more stable place.

Right now I’m trying to hold onto hope that if I stay consistent, loving, calm, and present, my child will eventually be able to feel the truth of our relationship despite the conflict around him.

I’d really appreciate hearing from anyone who has been there.

Thank you for your insights all! What we've got so far:

Abuse is 'unwarranted, not proportional to the situation' and also 'designed to control, alienate and restrict freedoms' (CC43)

It indicates 'a need to take corrective action' (ForeverDad)

It 'implies a repetitive pattern' that 'conditions [the abused person] to take a certain role in a relationship between people' (PeteWitsend)

It is cyclic (NotWendy)

It is 'repetitively saying or doing something that harms you' (Pook)

It is a 'pattern' and entails behaviour that is 'unreasonable and disproportionate, as well as causing significant harm' (CC43)

It seems like what we're coming back to is the idea that abuse involves repetition, that it conditions or shapes the relationship in a particular way, and that the harm is serious/ disproportionate.

In the case of uBPDx, there was an ongoing pattern of him describing and defining me as 'cruel' and 'horrible' for actions that were not cruel and horrible at all. He would use guilt if I was not perpetually available for his emotional and logistical needs.

For example, if I was in bed and did not want to fix his computer problems at that particular time, he would go into an audible monologue about how he was 'alone. I am completely alone. And I just have to accept that...' He would tap me on the shoulder in the middle of my doing another task on my laptop, and if I didn't respond would accuse me of wanting him to '________ off'.

We worked together and for a period, I was extremely burned out, and said I didn't want to talk about certain aspects of work at home. He would manouveure round this by saying something like, 'oh, you'll never GUESS what I did about [work related action here]... oh, yeah, I'm not supposed to talk about it.'

Over time, and in response to this environment, I became snappy and irritable - for example, he asked me if pulling a USB stick out had damaged it and I shrugged and said 'I don't know' in a 'don't bother me' tone of voice. He described this as me being more horrible to him than anyone else, ever, in his life.

I ended up internalising this view - I genuinely believed my actions were cruel and horrible - it took weeks of friends explaining to me that it was not proportionate.

There was some other manipulative behaviour from him, and one highly toxic and harmful action from me.

Basically, uBPDx was extremely mentally ill and depressed for much of our relationship. For a several month period, he would express suicidal ideation to me at least once and often multiple times per day - we're talking at least a hundred times and likely more. Sometimes this would be in situations of acute distress, at others it would be quite casual.

I found this somewhat traumatising, especially having lost a close friend to suicide previously in very proximate circumstances, and told him this. His response was - this is basically verbatim - 'ngl, this makes it harder for me to come to you if I'm suicidal'.

I assisted him to gain eligibility for medical appointments, but he sought no appointments and did not even look up information about what was available. I also encouraged him and directed him towards free services such as mindfulness classes.   

He also stated that the reason for his suicidality was his strong commitment to certain moral/ ideological values, which he and I nominally shared and were the basis of our relationship. (Apologies for being vague here - it's a very specific situation).

Some months later, I found out that he had severely violated these ideological values and did not see it as a problem. In my anger, I shouted '________ing kill yourself!'. Immediately after I retracted this ('No, no, don't kill yourself').

I believe my action here was toxic and harmful. It is toxic to tell a mentally ill person to kill themself, under any circumstances. If it was repeated or became a pattern, this would be abusive. I did not repeat this action. I never said anything like that to uBPDx again.

My action was also reactive to a a particular context - being constantly exposed to suicidal ideation, asking not to be, and having that request rebuffed. It did not reflect me setting up a cycle of getting power over another person. In fact, I tried *not* to be the person who was solely responsible for or relied upon by uBPDx in his poor mental health.

For these reasons, I believe my action was toxic rather than abusive.   

uBPDx continued to express suicidality and enact mental health meltdowns directed at me throughout the relationship, in one case spending 3.5 hours spiralling and telling me things like I was disappointing to them. He also got in my face and almost yelled that he was thinking of hurting himself, then berated me for not reacting appropriately. ('I'm telling you I want to hurt myself, and you're not reacting! You're supposed to be the person closest to me and you're not reacting!')

In hindsight, I believe this was controlling as it used threats of self-harm to demand or elicit a particular reaction from me. The meltdown also started basically apropos of nothing - just before, we'd gone out for a nice dinner.

There were other meltdowns - he would frequently ascribe his negative emotional state to me. A common quote was, 'I feel only anger, and YOU made me that way.'

 

 

I agree with Pook on this one.  Sometimes I think of abuse as the punishments not fitting the crimes.  The abusive behavior (punishment) seems unreasonable and disproportionate, as well as causes significant harm, rather than serving a legitimate disciplinary, educational or corrective purpose.  Oftentimes the abusive behavior will exploit a power imbalance, financial dependence, or some sort of weakness, such as feelings of fear, obligation or guilt.  Maybe there's no physical harm to you, but rather to your property, reputation, self-esteem or other important relationships.  Maybe some harsh words are uttered, but the level of harm depends on the context, for example accusations made in private vs. in public with the intent to damage your reputation.

You might wonder, how could a seemingly defenseless child or weak person succeed in abusing others but not actually cause any physical damage?  I've seen examples which I call "spoiling" behavior.  Let's say there's a wedding, family funeral, vacation or work event that is really important to you.  A pwBPD could be abusive by staging some sort of massive meltdown, attempting to sabotage an important moment for you.  And it's not just limited to one spoiled moment, but a pattern of meltdowns whenever you face an event that is important to you.  I think that could qualify as abusive, too, if the meltdowns are severe and recurrent enough.  I suspect other readers on this site will know exactly what I mean here.

Pook mentions a possible example of abuse, where a BPD child will lie/manipulate/exploit parents for money, typically to buy things that the parent didn't intend, such as illicit substances.  Demanding money for school but not actually attending classes is an example.  Demanding money or a co-signer for housing but then abandoning or destroying the property might be another.  Asking parents to buy a cars/auto insurance and then repeatedly crashing them while driving under the influence might be another example.  I'm not talking about a genuine mistake or accident, but a pattern of manipulation, deceit and exploitation over time, with a heavy dose of blame-shifting too.  In addition, there's a total lack of accountability and responsibility on the part of the abuser.  The relationship feels completely lopsided:  all take and no give.  And that is abusive in my humble opinion.