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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: BPD's misery and refusal to do anything about it despite their intelligence...  (Read 11716 times)
BentNotBroken
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« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2013, 02:12:08 PM »

I personally take the abuse stories with a huge grain of salt. Based on the fabrications of my BPDex regarding my behavior and the inconsistent stories of abuse that she told me she had suffered, I realized that her "reality" was largely a product of her mental illness. There was little to no evidence to support the claims she was making, and once she told a lie that put her in "victim status" to manipulate people, she kept running with the lie until it no longer benefited her. When I confronted her on the stories, she acted like I was crazy, denied ever telling me those stories and ramped up a smear campaign to destroy my credibility and reputation.

There may be some BPDs that actually did experience horrible abuse, but I believe that many of the stories are heavily exaggerated or outright fabrications of a disordered mind.

The ultimate victim is a child who is sexually abused. There is a button it pushes in almost everyone when we hear stories of children who are sexually abused. Often these stories are impossible to verify, and anyone who would question whether the abuse actually took place is looked upon as an uncaring, insensitive monster. I think BPDs often use this as a way of deflecting attention from their own behavior, and over time they even start to believe the abuse stories they tell, because it gives them a "reasonable" explanation for the way they feel and an instant pass for bad behavior.

I was duped for many years, and it was a painful realization when I finally saw that I had wanted to believe the stories, in spite of evidence to the contrary. I did not want to believe that the person I loved was broken, and no amount of effort on my part was ever going to change that. I was unwilling to cut my losses, and just kept trying to "work on our relationship" and improve myself to be a better partner. I was a fool, and I am responsible for the loss of 15+ years of my life with her.
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FoolishOne
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« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2013, 02:14:07 PM »

Looney is very intelligent... .  much smarter than myself... .  that was one of the features that attracted me to her.  My former wife had a knowledge deficit on many levels and we never could really talk about anything of substance, but Looney and I had that connection that I never had with anyone else.  That was part of the allure and attraction.

However, she was as clever as she was smart.  Rather than use what God gave her for beneficial means, she used it to hide, cheat and steal successfully... .  or at least, for awhile... .  her art of deception was masterful and she knew no bounds.

Regarding why she didn't seek treatment?  I am sure there are many theories on that, but my take is that there are tons of mensa members that have a whole host of problems.  Just because you are high functioning, can solve the Rubic's Cube, or write a contata, doesn't mean that you are not capable of emotional dysfunction, domestic calamity and mental illness.

Sure, she admitted occasional dysfunction, but it wasn't her fault.  It was other people that crossed her path that influenced her.  :)eflection is another art that BPD's are highly skilled at.  So, whatever they may have done that can't be lied about or explained away, is swept under the rug as being something they did as a result of someone else's actions... .  not their own.

There was a time when I would have given the moon and the stars if she would haved gone into DBT.  Now, the moon and stars are going to go to someone else more deserving that a self-absorbed, morally bankrupt, hypocrite that has asa much compassion as a scorpion... .  too much?

F1

No, my Looney was as high functioning as they get... .  and that's what made her so very dangerous.

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Newton
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« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2013, 02:15:57 PM »

happiness68... .  my experience was that a trigger could be simply us feeling a different way from them!... .  that in itself could cause an extinction burst!... .  ie? I was planting seeds in a vegetable patch with her mother on a lovely sunny day... .  my ex was sitting on a bench in the garden feeling crappy... .  

So her verbal response to our behaviour was "Oh so YOU TWO are playing happy effing families whilst I sit here dying" (her actual words)... .  

Her feelings contradicted our behaviour... .  yet she needed to drag us to her level... .  

Even us feeling happy, when they are not can affect them... .  

How we deal with that is up to us  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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FoolishOne
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« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2013, 02:21:12 PM »

I so get that Newton... .  I need to explore extinction bursts... .  I think I've witnessed a lifetime of them.

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happiness68
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« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2013, 02:27:32 PM »

Thanks Newton.  They are feeling sorry for themselves. That isn't abuse though.  What do you think their childhood abuse could be?  Perhaps an aggressive mother/father?  My exbfBPD didn't talk about anything like that.  I do however think I said/did things (most of the time quite innocently) that triggered him.  I agree with the trigger thing.  However, I imagine that is present in most relationships.  However, most people know how to deal with these things rationally, but BPD seems to make them irrational.  My exbfBPD was most definitely irrational. 

happiness68... .  my experience was that a trigger could be simply us feeling a different way from them!... .  that in itself could cause an extinction burst!... .  ie? I was planting seeds in a vegetable patch with her mother on a lovely sunny day... .  my ex was sitting on a bench in the garden feeling crappy... .  

So her verbal response to our behaviour was "Oh so YOU TWO are playing happy effing families whilst I sit here dying" (her actual words)... .  

Her feelings contradicted our behaviour... .  yet she needed to drag us to her level... .  

Even feeling happy, when they are not can affect them... .  

How we deal with that is up to us  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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cookiecrumbled
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« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2013, 02:57:54 PM »

My ex who has BPD (undiagnosed) is very high functioning and very intelligent.   He has done very well in his career, is attractive and is financially stable.   On the outside, he appears to be an excellent catch.   But anyone who has been close to him knows what a mess he is.

Me too, Jenna.  It makes me sick how he must be strutting around, women throwing themselves at him.  In my state, single women are a dime a dozen while single men are extremely scarce.  Little do they know what they are getting into... .  but somehow that doesn't make my pain dissipate at all.

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Newton
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« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2013, 03:24:33 PM »

Ok... .  here are my perceived potential causes of my exs (multiple ex's)... .  possible causes of their BPD... .  

All of the bullet pointed below are provided from my ex's "revelations" (gaslighting or "confession"... .  

-sexual abuse from an uncle

-physical and verbal abuse from a mother

-physical and verbal abuse from a father

-treatment for cancer at 5 years old, recovery... .  then abandonment from her father

-possible satanic rituals at an early age from a mother (yes really)

-bullying from pre school classmates

-eating disorders at pre teen years

-eating disorders at post teen years

-ocd traits caused by controlling parents

-sexual abuse from a tv celebrity

(This is the combination of two exs revelations)


I could add but I'm bored... .  really... .  If that sounds harsh... .  it's because thats how I'm feeling... .  

All of this PAST crappola has zero to do with me... .  I didn't cause it, It's not my job to fix it and I am in a place now where I am quite able to deal with a partners issues... .  but up to a point! 


... .  I believe I have a mum who has undiagnosed BPD... .  2 affairs, 2 suicide attempts... .  still total denial and projection... .  

A suspected NPD bio dad ... .  who has been off the scene since month 3 of my life ... .  then regular beatings from my step dad and BPD mother... .  (til I learnt kung fu at 7 years old... .  seriously!)

... .  Big deep breaths!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) 

My point is... .  I have actively sought private therapists as and when I could afford them for the last 7 years... .  I have accepted all the help the NHS can throw at me including meds, CBT, etc... .  

It HAS made a difference!  Smiling (click to insert in post)  I have sought active treatment for my mental health issues... .  still to this day my exs are attempting to project their crap onto other people... .  other hosts

I apologise in advance for being so frank,... .  but who cares what caused their initial pain?... .  It's just not our problem!... .  We are attempting to have a connection with an adult on a sexual, physical, spiritual level... .  aren't we? A relationship that is mutually beneficial... .  If our partner cannot manage that... .  we need to address why we are waiting for them to be able to acheive that... .  and if it's even possible... .  

I put in the hard work to get where I am... .  I want a partner who has at a bare minimum, at least the capability to do the same... .  !

I don't see so many stories here with pwBPD that can do that... .  

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myself
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« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2013, 04:22:57 PM »

I put in the hard work to get where I am... .  I want a partner who has at a bare minimum, at least the capability to do the same... .  !

I don't see so many stories here with pwBPD that can do that... .  

Newton, that hard work is definitely paying off, going on what you share here.

You not only want that kind of partner, you deserve it. Looking forward to reading your views of that, as well, when you're with that someone. Capable and following through, she'll be. Someone who'll appreciate the whole experience while there beside you.

If only everyone would focus positively on themselves is what this thread is all about.


BTW: I saw a quote today that for some reason made me think of all this BPD stuff.

"Anyone who isn't thoroughly confused isn't thinking clearly." (Clare Boothe Luce)
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almost789
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« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2013, 04:34:01 PM »

Happiness, the obvious forms of abuse like physical and sexual abuse as well as other more subtle forms of abuse such as emotional invalidation where the child is not allowed to express feelings, shaming, neglect of attention, depression or other mental illnesses in the mother during the formative years and even just an absence of the mother due to illness. Adopted babies who suffered neglect and abuse prior to being adopted by healthy families. Narcissistic and BPD parents, silent treatment used as punishment by either parent.  Over protection, excessive control. Spoiling the child. All off these are forms of abuse that can contribute to a child having BPD.
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Newton
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« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2013, 04:54:01 PM »

Myself... .  thankyou!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)... .  on initial reading that quote you posted gave me a "SCOOBY DOO" moment!... .  I may have actually shaken my head side to side and uttered "shaggy? "... .  (quietly of course   )

My philosophy reading/studies crave brilliant words like that... .   Smiling (click to insert in post)

Thanks again  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) (googling her now  Smiling (click to insert in post) )  
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« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2013, 04:55:22 PM »

I think this thread opened a new and very important aspect. Thank you for that.

Me too did a lot of thinking about what might have caused my expbdgf to develop her (undiagnosed) condition. She did talk a lot about abuse, but most of that started after death of her mother that occured around age 13. Before, she just felt a bit neglected because her parents were developing a family business. By definitions I saw so far on these boards and elsewhere, formative abuse should have happened much earlier, definitely before primary school age.

This, together with other information from this thread brought me to two conclusions (that I will sleep over and see how I feel about them):

1) all the ails and wrongs she used in arguments and self-pity scenes happened at times when her psyche should have been better equipped to deal with negative experiences and, although probably true in general form, were just used as justification.

2) by definition, the very presentation of pwBPD's past is a disordered reflection serving to justify and reassure. All the things they said, that we ruminate and analyze upon - how do we even know they are true. Certainly in my case, something did not add up. I do synthesis of data for work daily (and I am not talking mathematics but social sciences) and can connect dots very well. But I could never reconstruct her past - events, times, durations... .  just did not match up.

Is this lie I believed in much greater then I thought? Hmm.
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Newton
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« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2013, 05:09:15 PM »

4815162342... .     It's important to appreciate that our partners perceptions of the world will shift and adapt according to their feelings ... .  ie/ feelings equal facts... .  

Is that a dynamic you can process?... .  
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« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2013, 05:30:45 PM »

Is that a dynamic you can process?... .  

It does not really matter anymore, relationship is over. But yeah, I can process that dynamic now in retrospect and with a lot of effort. It was impossible for me to process it in "real time", hence the breakup (well, one of the reasons for it anyway).

Today it is just amusing to realize that even the facts (including descriptions of abuse) she told and I took for granted and used to rationalize her behavior (and respond) possibly were not true in form, if not also in substance.
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Newton
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« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2013, 05:48:29 PM »

So if you take some time and effort to process things... .  how are you feeling about the breakup?... .  
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RedRightAnkle
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« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2013, 08:17:47 PM »

Hello,

Maybe I'm being redundant, or maybe I am too late to respond to the original theme of the thread, but I'm in a mood to share my opinions anyway.

Unfortunately, intelligence has extremely little to do with mental health. From what I've gathered, it's actually more intelligent people that have a lot of mental issues and are plagued by mental anguish. I'm not saying everyone here isn't intelligent because they're not mentally ill, I'm just saying high intelligence can come with a price.

I just feel like it's somewhat insensitive to ask why a person with BPD doesn't just get help; That's like asking why an anorexic just doesn't pick up a sandwich and eat, or asking why someone with OCD doesn't just stop performing their compulsive behaviors. It's ILLNESS, as Turtle and many others have already said. There is no logic, or warped logic at best. People with serious mental illnesses usually don't end up getting help until they hit rock bottom, like attempting suicide or getting arrested. As much as we'd love for these people with borderline to get help, as smart as so many of them are, it won't happen because the illness is in their personality - they consider it normal, and so develop a sort of learned helplessness because it's just "who they are."

And any reasons for their illness aren't necessarily excuses -it's dysfunction. You can't invalidate their feelings because, as warped as they can be, it's what their feeling, and who are we to deny that to them? And I do agree that the person with BPD's past is not as relevant to their adult relationships as their current behavior. Lies or not, embellishments or not, they are feeling/behaving this way NOW for a reason, and it's up to you whether you want to expose yourself to that or not.

And I know for me, I had to ask the question of why I wanted my BF to get help - was it so *I* could be happier, or so he would be happier? I feel like a lot of people in this situation feel like if only they got help everything will be hunky dory, so they question why their SO just can't do it. If this person is out of your life, wish him the best and let him be. Fretting over it leads me to suspect that maybe some part of you wants him to get better so that the two of you can be happy again. I could be totally wrong, so take my comments with a grain of salt. It could be a possibility though.

It's better to focus on your mental health. You can never radically accept a mentally ill person in your life if you don't radically accept yourself and have the best mental health you can have.
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bb12
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« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2013, 03:43:14 AM »

"I had to ask the question of why I wanted my BF to get help - was it so *I* could be happier, or so he would be happier? I feel like a lot of people in this situation feel like if only they got help everything will be hunky dory, so they question why their SO just can't do it. If this person is out of your life, wish him the best and let him be."

Spot on!

This is a great thread but in addition to my desire to endorse Turtle's observation that THEY need to want the therapy, I'd also like to comment on the "other directedness" at play in this line of questioning. Schema Therapies delve into this and OUR psychological issues for choosing them, staying with them and obsessing about them once its over.

IMHO, BPD is about emotional under-development. Intelligence does not factor, but selfishness does. So of course the decision to seek therapy will come from THEIR wants and needs and never ours. That said PwPDs rarely seek treatment.

So what about our misery and refusal to fully let go despite OUR intelligence? And did our visit to the T provide the magical panacea to this awful situation?

Bb12
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happiness68
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« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2013, 04:03:47 AM »

bb12 - your quote here - yes, what about us nons and our misery and refusal to let it go - I think part of this comes from the shock of what's happened and this in itself takes time to get our heads round, whether that with be a T or through friends, or whatever else we feel we may need.  It would seem that a relationship with a person suffering from BPD has such an irrational out of the blue note to it that this is what we find hard to deal with.  If it were a r/s with a normal person, we wouldn't feel like this, as we'd see it coming.  Losing a BPD is such a shock, as it's so unexpected.  It was in my case anyway.  I can't imagine for one minute leaving someone I love and want to spend the rest of my life with over a small issue.  I understand that it's an illness and their illness and we nons will never understand it.  However, for us nons it's a real shock. 



So what about our misery and refusal to fully let go despite OUR intelligence? And did our visit to the T provide the magical panacea to this awful situation?

Bb12

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« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2013, 04:15:27 AM »

Hiya happiness68

Completely agree with you! My ending was as confusing as it was brutal... .  And I still post on the leaving board because of the pain I can still feel. And yes, the fact that we were never this stuck before says a lot about our own emotional and psychological health.

I was just being a bit cheeky and nudging the thread toward self-examination where I believe freedom lies - together with the cure for our attraction to broken people 

Bb12
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« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2013, 04:17:06 AM »

The nature of the BPD beast is to pull us in, hook us, tantalize, guilt us, etc. without taking all the time needed to unravel their past. So most of them force us to trauma bond, and TO do the work they could not do, then, we or them walk away. So, many of us go to therapy, to un- hook their grip on our personality and character they devour. This  does'nt necessarily mean anything was wrong with us, although we could use it.  And no, a good T and this site, is not a panacea, but a sounding board we need to tune into. One who truly understands the nature of this BPD beast who  preys on the innocent and weak, and also the strong and the wise successfully.
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Always remember what they do:Idealize. Devalue. Discard.
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« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2013, 05:09:44 AM »

I kind off agree with red right ankle. Its similar to asking an alcoholic why dont u just get help and stop drinking. Its so much more complicated and difficult with BPD because of their identity issues. They have built their false identity. Admitting theyoare not who they believe they are is like a soul death to them. It doesnt seem logical to us because we know different. Most of us know who we are. They dont. Their identity comes from what others say they are.
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« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2013, 05:15:33 AM »

2) by definition, the very presentation of pwBPD's past is a disordered reflection serving to justify and reassure. All the things they said, that we ruminate and analyze upon - how do we even know they are true. Certainly in my case, something did not add up. I do synthesis of data for work daily (and I am not talking mathematics but social sciences) and can connect dots very well. But I could never reconstruct her past - events, times, durations... .  just did not match up.

This is so true - and trying to piece together the puzzle would be guaranteed to elicit accusations and rage.  My ex included some material about his childhood in a piece for publication & then got very upset when his family accused him of lying. I know that he had exaggerated claims of being abused at the catholic school he went to - someone called him on it & he immediately changed his story.  He was also fixated on childhood issues of his "favourite" ex.  I got really tired of hearing about how difficult her life had been in addition to his own. I used to wonder why he expected me to care about that stuff when he seemed totally disinterested in anything to do with my life prior to meeting him... .  
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« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2013, 05:17:53 AM »

Apologies - the start of my last post was a quote from 481(numbers) but I'm struggling with an iPhone trying to quote/paste
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« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2013, 05:29:30 AM »

And in response to rightredankles question ... .  why do we want our BPDs to get help? In my case its not because i want it for me. I already know i cant be happy with him. And also, if they do get help, like some do and get cured they usually end up being a completely different person due to the personality changes. In my case i would like him to get help because i cant stand the though of someone i loved being so miserable and in pain for the rest of their life. Even if i never saw him again i still hope and pray he finds help and peace.
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« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2013, 06:19:28 AM »

We were fortunate to have the money a few years back, to have brain scans (nuclear imagery) done at the Amen Clinic in California. These images reveal which parts of the brain are abnormal in their functioning - either lowered neural activity, or heightened activity.  They did the some scans while she was calm and others in a state of mild induced stress.

The results were a diagnosis of mood disorder, depression, and pms syndrome. I don't think they were assessing for PDs as this is more of a behavior issue.  But the pictures were revealing and explained her BPD behavior though at the time we didn't know anything about BPD.

For instance, activity in her prefrontal cortex shuts down under stress, while her amygdala fires up. The prefrontal cortex provides executive function (logic, reason, the  inner "narrator".  The amygdala is more responsible for primal emotions.  From these images you could see how her brain functions improperly when she dysregulates. The psychiatrist said that under stress, her brain will actually go into a seizure  of sorts -- neural activity (electrical/chemical firing) would stop in those parts of her brain that would normally "apply the brakes" to emotions and she could no longer interpret alarming/threatening thoughts like a normal person would.

Knowing this ultimately had a good and a bad effect on me.  The good is that it gave me more compassion, knowing she couldn't help a lot of her intensity and strange behavior during outbursts. The bad thing is, knowing nothing about BPD, I slid further down the slope of no boundaries, enablement and codependence, because "she really couldn't help it." Ultimately she lost something solid to lean against and respect for me.  

I lost myself to a growing resignation and listlessness as exhaustion took it's toll.  This is what happens when  someone lives with mental illness and doesn't have  the skills to deal with it head on nor the knowledge of how to take care of oneself. That's why communities like this are so valuable.

Over recent years, brain researchers have come to  realize that the brain changes over time, depending on choices and behavior . The thinking that a person chooses to engage in, the behaviors they allow to become habitual, actually change the structure of the brain. Chemical/electrical pathways are forged and widened like well-used wagon ruts. Areas of the brain associated with certain functions begin to overbear (and even enlarge) in relationship to other parts. If a person chooses the path of unforgiveness lets say, letting bitterness and resentment become a predominate mindset, I believe the brain begins to change to reflect and accommodate that. So for a BPD, in earlier times, they may have had more of a choice. Later on,  it's not so much their choice, it becomes neurological structure.

So the question becomes, is my wife hypersensitive, resentful, suspicious, etc because her brain processes information abnormally (as the images show), or is her brain shot to ___ because she chose unhealthy thinking patterns of anger, bitterness, resentment, self-centeredness, etc?  What came first?  
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« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2013, 07:07:41 AM »

I usually post on the Undecided board but am closer to making that dreadful "decision" to leave. This thread caught my eye. My H (uBPD) is extremely intelligent. To speak to his abuse: He stuttered growing up, was verbally abused by mom because of it, dad was an alcoholic (dry now), he was put in the Sped Ed classes because he couldn't "talk" right so teachers thought he couldn't read. He never really had many friends growing up, still doesn't for that matter. He got a perfect 800 on the English part of his SATs back when they were out of 1600. Yes, he had a difficult childhood, but he still carries the seed of bitterness.

I would speak to him when we first got married, that all of that was in the past and not to let it color his future. He's highly intelligent, charming when he wants to be, extremely gifted in so many areas, creative beyond measure, landed his dream job right out of college... .  we had the entire world ahead of us. We, as a newly married couple, can determine OUR fate. Fast forward 15 years, his childhood and upbringing still haunt him and that seed of bitterness has taken a strong root: Everyone is out to wrong him, it's ALWAYS somebody else's fault, people are stupid, etc, etc. Over the years, I have watched this man that I love (and maybe it was all mirroring in the beginning. Who knows. I do know that I've always felt duped. The man I dated was not the one in our home after the marriage.) go from super ambitious, always busy creating something to someone who is so unbelievably miserable (negative, irritable, complaining constantly) and projects that on to me and our daughter.

He has so much to be grateful for: we are literally living a dream right now, we have a beautiful, intelligent daughter, not lacking financially, etc. For so long I was angry at him for not realizing this and being thankful. But it is mental illness. THIS colors their world. They will only see what their twisted perception will allow. Until that seed of bitterness, whatever it may be, is dug out and destroyed. And is it possible that THAT could be the cause of mental illness in some people? A wrong that is held onto so tightly? It literally drives them crazy?

Like so many on this thread have posted, MY part in our dance is the boundaries. I was pretty firm with them in the beginning, but then to prevent these rages that came from nowhere backed off. I only found out about BPD 4 months ago and it explains a lot of the craziness that has defined our r/s. Had I known then what I know now, I would have sought counseling much earlier and held to those boundaries no matter what the consequence. Instead, I kept giving and changing, thinking I was helping, only to find out that I have been enabling.

And I know for me, I had to ask the question of why I wanted my BF to get help - was it so *I* could be happier, or so he would be happier? I feel like a lot of people in this situation feel like if only they got help everything will be hunky dory, so they question why their SO just can't do it.

Of course, we want the best for our r/s, which means both partners getting help. I can honestly say that my heart grieves for my H. Nobody on Earth deserves to be in as much misery as he's in. Life is TOO short to live like this. I have told him this too, when I tried to get him to seek help for Depression years back. His answer: Can't you just get it through your head? Some people are just destined to have one ~y day after another.

I look to the future and what I want from life and what I want for my daughter's upbringing will not happen if I choose to stay. Turtle hit it on the head when she said that they need to want help. How long has it taken me to finally accept that? I can't do it for him, and perhaps that is what has kept me in this r/s for so long: if I just do this one more thing, change one more thing, etc. But NO... .  his life is not mine. That is HIS demon to wrestle with. I can be supportive, I can hold to my boundaries, I can validate until I'm blue in the face, but in the end, especially if he refuses to seek help, I will never get the love, respect, support, understanding, or friendship I crave in this marriage.  Nor will I have a healthy model of what a marriage should look like for our daughter.

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« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2013, 07:19:18 AM »

Over recent years, brain researchers have come to  realize that the brain changes over time, depending on choices and behavior . The thinking that a person chooses to engage in, the behaviors they allow to become habitual, actually change the structure of the brain. Chemical/electrical pathways are forged and widened like well-used wagon ruts. Areas of the brain associated with certain functions begin to overbear (and even enlarge) in relationship to other parts. If a person chooses the path of unforgiveness lets say, letting bitterness and resentment become a predominate mindset, I believe the brain begins to change to reflect and accommodate that. So for a BPD, in earlier times, they may have had more of a choice. Later on,  it's not so much their choice, it becomes neurological structure.

So the question becomes, is my wife hypersensitive, resentful, suspicious, etc because her brain processes information abnormally (as the images show), or is her brain shot to ___ because she chose unhealthy thinking patterns of anger, bitterness, resentment, self-centeredness, etc?  What came first? 

So, is it possible to forge new thought patterns after it becomes their neurological structure? The brain is an extraordinary organ. Unfortunately, there's a lot to be said about the consequences of holding on to anger unforgiveness, and bitterness.
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« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2013, 07:24:12 AM »

Thanks Vinnie  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)... .  a very thought provoking post!

I'm inclined to agree on your interpretation of the implications of these scans... .  not only from a clinical perspective but also a personal one... .  

My experience of practicing CBT and mindfulness seems to illustrate that even by practicing and allowing ourselves to experience positive thoughts (or actively challenging negative feelings with self constructed sentences)... .  has a direct impact on feelings... .  

I find this apparent in another area of my life... .  but a reverse effect ... .  

I have studied martial arts since a very young age... .  recently I have trained in a very martial form of tai chi.  It has been explained by my teachers that repeating our form (in which there are hidden a multitude of offensive/defensive techniques)... .  will create new neural pathways in our brain.  

We are also taught how to separate ourselves from thought when practicing our form and attempt to experience a sense of "being" in the movements... .  a kind of dissociative experience I believe (well it certainly feels like it).

The training methods are designed to develop a physical reaction to a physical threat on a very base sub-concious level.  It is often described to us a "reptilian" feeling in nature, and when I need to tap in to that it definitely feels incredibly primitive, raw... .  and provides me with reaction speeds and power that are simply not possible if I "thought" about doing them... .  

We are taught ":)ON'T DO IT"... .  I appreciate that sounds counter intuitive... .  but until you experience that "feeling"... .  the sentence doesn't make sense.

Taking myself to that "place" can be quite overwhelming and frightening when I realise the destructiveness that feeling can manifest... .  

This training has been a key part of my interpretation of BPD symptoms... .  they are reactive in nature on a base level that many can't appreciate or experience.  They can cause a huge amount of damage... .  and taking ownership of them and embracing them for what they are is the only way to tame them.

I appreciate this post is a little "out there"... .  in summary I guess I'm trying to say that in my training it appears I am being taught to reverse engineer my brain, to bypass thought and utilize repeated physical behaviour.  The goal is to attempt to achieve a dissociated state where feelings express themselves in physicality without the time delay of thought... .  

Has this made sense to anyone?... .  It really does to me!    
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« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2013, 08:14:09 AM »

Vinnie -- thank you for your post!

Newton --  yes, this makes sense!

Excerpt
I appreciate this post is a little "out there"... .  in summary I guess I'm trying to say that in my training it appears I am being taught to reverse engineer my brain, to bypass thought and utilize repeated physical behaviour.  The goal is to attempt to achieve a dissociated state where feelings express themselves in physicality without the time delay of thought... .  



I think I have experienced this with the idea of gratitude.  While that isn't a physical behavior, I do believe I have rewired my brian to be grateful FIRST -- "without the time delay of thought."  I don't do it EVERY time, but I do it ALMOST every time.  And for that... .  I am grateful.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

This one thing has changed my life immeasurably.

turtle

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« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2013, 08:23:13 AM »

I second that - thanks Vinnie.  What you write is very interesting.  Thanks for the insight.

Turtle/Newton - I don't understand this.  Can you explain? 

Vinnie -- thank you for your post!

Newton --  yes, this makes sense!

Excerpt
I appreciate this post is a little "out there"... .  in summary I guess I'm trying to say that in my training it appears I am being taught to reverse engineer my brain, to bypass thought and utilize repeated physical behaviour.  The goal is to attempt to achieve a dissociated state where feelings express themselves in physicality without the time delay of thought... .  



I think I have experienced this with the idea of gratitude.  While that isn't a physical behavior, I do believe I have rewired my brian to be grateful FIRST -- "without the time delay of thought."  I don't do it EVERY time, but I do it ALMOST every time.  And for that... .  I am grateful.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

This one thing has changed my life immeasurably.

turtle

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« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2013, 08:40:22 AM »

Turtle/Newton - I don't understand this.  Can you explain? 

Well, I can't speak for Newton, but here's how I perceive that this has worked for me.

Back in the days of being in BPD hell, everything was dark, hard, negative, costly, debilitating, destructive, etc.  We all know what that feels like.

This caused me to approach my entire life from a very dark place. My business, my friends, my family, my very existance on this earth.  Even long after my stint in BPD hell was over, this was what my brain had learned.  That things were hard, negative, costly, destructive, etc.   And... .  some of that was fact!  My circumstances were not great for a number of reasons that were real.  There was no denying the gravity of them, but my approach to dealing with them was not helping one bit.

About a year ago, I started keeping a gratitude journal. Every day, I write down 5 things I'm grateful for. Sometimes, the entries are very small and seemingly obvious.  i.e., I'm grateful for my morning coffee.  Sometimes, the entries are much more significant. i.e., I'm grateful for my new knees and how having them has changed my life (this is a HUGE entry.)

This simple, daily act, has caused me to approach my life from an entirely different mind set.  That includes my business, my friends, my family, my very existance on this earth.  Does that mean my circumstances have changed?  Not necessarily.  Some of them have not and that is just a fact.  However, my reaction to them is different now and it's not some kind of thought or feeling that I have to conjure up.  It's just there... .  FIRST.

That's how I interpret what Newton has said and how it looks in my little corner of the world.

We'll see what Newton has to say!

turtle



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