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Author Topic: she's a BPD sufferer , not a predator  (Read 4992 times)
squashed.human

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« on: March 16, 2013, 06:51:07 AM »

I'm not on this side of the board to ask for help . I'm already posting on L1 , but as i roam and Read around this valuable site . I stumble with article by Roger Melton , about how the love evolves for person suffering from BPD , the article shock me coz it doesn't go in harmony with the site theme , the article mainly addressed the BPD as "she" , based on that majority of BPD are females but the shocking thing is if i don't know my beloved one or had just met her not long ago , i would be convinced that I'm just a meal in her food chain, feeding her emotional needs through 3 phases (that I'm not even willing to share them in the post) and then sooner or later ,she moves on to the next one as a hungry predator. Maybe I'm upset at the article coz it does include so much true things that i faced but it includes some points that are not at all in the personal traits , morals or ethics of my beloved one. And the article would severely injure the self esteem of any one with BPD and will confuse them greatly more than it confused me for a moment. I'm not asking for the article to be removed but at least not to generalized and also i highly recommend the article to be hidden some way from members suffering BPD
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2013, 07:44:44 AM »

I do understand what you are saying here.  I read that and was instantly filled with fear.  It still creeps in now and again, but I'm learning that isn't necessarily how things have to be.  I'm hopeful.  I'm not naive enough to believe it couldn't happen to me though I hope it doesn't come to that.
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2013, 07:53:46 AM »

This site in not for members with BPD hence to a degree it is hidden away. Many areas of this site will be triggering for a person with BPD, especially the Healing and Ending Boards. As a rule members with BPD would be advised against participating on this site.

As far as the "tone" of that article goes I do know what you mean. I also thought at first it sounded a tad bitter. To a Stayers mind set (as I am) it is a harshly worded warning. But the simple fact is as you experience more and more of what others go through that harshness becomes more like the reality many do go through. It may not be for you or me but it is for many.

The process may not be the deliberate evil scheming that it may at first read like, but rather the result of thoughtless (lack of empathy) and defensive behavior that is part of the disorder. The results are often the same, regardless of intent.

It is better the harsh warnings then to find your circumstances are not as bad, rather than find you underestimated the depths of it.

For those not aware of this article the link being discussed is

   

How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves
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squashed.human

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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2013, 08:20:34 AM »

thank you for your words and encouragement . I understand that the fire alarm can't be made my some nice violin tunes or piano , it must be bold and annoying enough to hustle you to run away from the fire . But he didn't tell what can we do to help the fire starter who could be innocent and doing it unintentionally. The alarm simply and only say "save your skin" i didn't think that for three years and i won't start thinking it now though I'm even upset at my self coz part telling me that writer knows better and i should stop this path
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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2013, 08:32:51 AM »

I dont think the goal is to protect the BPD but to inform the family member or loved one.  This website isnt even for them, its for us.

There is a reason we entered a relationship with someone with BPD. 

One of the first things that you learn is why that is.  It helps you to be able to progress in the relationship or let it go.  I'm sorry, but they are manipulative and if I wasnt warned I would have continued to feel it was my fault.

I dont feel its on purpose, I think its an innate neediness and wanting that never ends for them. Its a horrible illness. The manipulation is for self survival.  I love my BPD with all my heart but overlooking the bad keeps us in the dark, and that is what we are here for.  To learn.

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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2013, 08:41:09 AM »

I feel that there are two points to this, firstly that this site is for family, friends and partners of a pwBPD, generally not the sufferer. I think I read somewhere that we are discouraged from drawing their attention to the site as there are many things that would be disturbing to any sufferer and none of us would want that. The site is more about support and learning for us, not the pwBPD, there are other sites specifically for the sufferer if they want that type of support.

Secondly, I feel that the article reflects the transition of a relationship of an untreated BP when there is no knowledge or understanding of the disorder by the non. Circumstances, traits and situations can vary, but there is a common theme in these relationships.

With knowledge and understanding, we can make the difficult decisions that have to be made, are we prepared to put in the work to improve both the relationship and ourselves, and it is work, there's no denying that part, or do we walk away?

There is no question that this is a very personal choice, and the article should not be viewed as the answer in itself, but as part of the toolbox available to us non to formulate our own opinions of how and where we want these relationships to go.

Just my thoughts... .  
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squashed.human

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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2013, 08:49:25 AM »

thank you laelle and tiger . i get your point , thank you and i wish you luck . I think we all need luck after we drain all our powers. And tiger. . . Thanks for that tip of using the toolbox and not taking it as an answer
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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2013, 09:16:27 AM »

I think the article is emotionally loaded and needs to be balanced with compassion for the illness. I find it interesting that it uses very emotive language 'emotional invasion', 'trojan horse', 'devious', 'cunning'. And then at the very end says "It is a serious mental illness'.

It suggests that it's all part of a plan, I believe it may be in some ways but it is a plan for survival the only way  pwBPD knows how.

If people feel victimised by pwBPD I think that article will really add to that feeling and the anger on the leaving board is palpable at times and can, I believe keep people stuck and unable to see their own role. I'm not a stayer so I suppose that makes me a leaver really but I think I'm more about accepting my ex is a human being who has serious problems that cause him deep unhappiness in the world. That article goes nowhere near acknowledging that truth.

Good for you for raising this Squashed Human  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2013, 09:45:19 AM »

I haven't read the article - and I also assumed my stbexw had morals and values too.  I will say this a year ago I would have never in a million years would have guessed she would become the person she is today.  I realized that she was just mirroring my morals and values but then came the time to discard me after 19 years because I could no longer fill her empty bucket as quickly as her new "friend".  Maybe a lot of it is true - she has became a lying, cheating, person who could throw away her family for her own self interest and drop all 19 years of good memories away with no regrets and not wanted to look back or even try to work on things. So maybe now all seems good - but trust me from painful experience - it can change in one day. They can wear a mask beautifully - but sooner or latter it may sufficate them as they know deep down that is not the true them (because they don't know who they are).
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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2013, 09:59:42 AM »

thanks cal , maybe she doesn't know who she is but I'm sure she will soon realise who you are and regret her deeds . I hope you can forgive her and that forgiveness should be power in your hand that she MUST appreciate or else byebye
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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2013, 10:01:16 AM »

Thanks for that tip of using the toolbox and not taking it as an answer

You are more than welcome SqH, it's a good thing to share our thoughts and experiences, debate is healthy, it gives us another perspective to consider.

If you have questions or need to share, keep posting, if you want to know more and relate to your situation, read, read, read. I have found that there are some good people here with a wealth of knowledge and experience and they have helped change my perspective in a positive way for me, and that's the point of it all, what ever the outcome.

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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2013, 10:09:55 AM »

thanks tiger , i Read but not as much as i want km write , it's still my second day and maybe it's a human need to speak out then calm and sit to hear. I'll post something now in this same L5 I hope you give me your view on it
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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2013, 10:19:07 AM »

I can tell you I have honestly forgiven my stbex.  I'm hurt yes - but I can forgive her. I can say it was easier for me to forgive her when I learned to forgive that little girl who had horendous things happen to her. The big difference is that she will never admit what she did/is still doing is wrong (if she did it would prob. kill her).  That's one of the reasons she will never be willing to work on us - because she would then have to admit to her own shortcommings.  It took me a long time to understand what happened and how she could change so quickly (but she wore her mask perfectly - since she has perfected it from years of pain and torment).  She did open up to me once by text during this seperation - basically telling me she knows she threw away the best thing in her life and how everyday of her whole life it took all her energy just to make it through the day.  So why I saw this happy wife - inside she was slowly dying daily.  We can be a great protector/provider/caregiver - but sooner or latter they have to realize that they need to learn to love themselves.  They say some have to hit rock bottom before they will get help.  I can say this might be her rock bottom and she has stayed in theropy this time for 6 months now - before she would go maybe a month or two and then the baidaid would be enough for her.  This time maybe she will find some real healing and be a better woman for it - I may not be in her life anymore - but I love her enough that I know she needs to do this by herself - and I love myself enough that I have to respect my own morals/values/ and boundaries.
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squashed.human

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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2013, 10:46:46 AM »

cal , you're an awesome guy , maybe that's the way you age originally but I'll speak for my self , being with a BPD taught me a lot of patience , tolerance , forgiveness and wisdom  , and i see a lot of that in you. And someone worthy should enjoy those values from you . I wish you find someone who can heal you fast
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squashed.human

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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2013, 12:26:38 PM »

Hey Imagination , you seem determined to do this the right way , but i just have one important thing to say, a six years plan sound like a rough choice and may relaps even at the very beginning ! The six years plan would sound good idea if divided to stages and phases , like stage one takes 5 months and move to stage 2 when success and if delayed 2 months beyond what you planned for stage 1 ,then reassess your plan and continue. But one solid 6 years is not easy job. I Read about long goals and stages some where in here. One important thing is i notice this site is not recommended for someone suffering BPD , you can notice that if you Read earlier on this thread. Good luck
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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2013, 07:57:51 PM »

Hey Imagination , you seem determined to do this the right way , but i just have one important thing to say, a six years plan sound like a rough choice and may relaps even at the very beginning ! The six years plan would sound good idea if divided to stages and phases , like stage one takes 5 months and move to stage 2 when success and if delayed 2 months beyond what you planned for stage 1 ,then reassess your plan and continue. But one solid 6 years is not easy job. I Read about long goals and stages some where in here. One important thing is i notice this site is not recommended for someone suffering BPD , you can notice that if you Read earlier on this thread. Good luck

My approach to this whole issue has 3 stages.

First, stop the sole destroying conflict and generally making it unnecessarily worse. By using boundaries, disengagement from pointless issues, and a whole lot of Acceptance.

The Acceptance was then split into 2 stages. Firstly, stuff you really wanted to address, mainly to do with fairness and being mindful, but could wait until the core issues in the first step had been consolidated. The second part of Acceptance was all the little niggly things that where only just added to the list because you were generally unhappy. The twigs in the forest if you like. These I just put a line though and stopped worrying about as the goal is not to achieve the probably unattainable perfect relationship.

So far I have basically achieved most of the first part, direct extreme conflict and excessive black painting directed at me is virtually gone. The alcoholism and medication abuse is very much a lessening issue. Respect for me and our RS is significantly on the rise.

The consequence of this is she does not feel under constant thread of perceived attack and hence does not live in Def Con 1 mode anymore. This is a good place to be as she is now starting to own her issues, now the avenue to project via me is gone. She is now in a place where she is receptive to T and self help/improvement course.

As a result over the next year or so we can work on mindfulness, neediness, and increasing her general functionality and sense of self worth

No she is not fixed, but the RS dynamic is more stable and rewarding.

The development, path, and direction was heading as per script of that article. Diffusing the excessive defensive automatic reactions seem to have defused that path. Without being aware of it, that is exactly the way it would have gone.
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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2013, 03:47:27 PM »

hmm... .  I actually liked the article. It was, in fact, one of the first things I read on this site that resonated with me. If it were hidden so that it could only be read by me after registering on the site, I don;t believe I would have found such a great resource. This site, the people on it, combined with a few months of individual therapy and a whole lot of books I've read has provided me with the best possible chance I have to save my marriage to my dBPDw.

Would it trigger my wife to read it? I doubt it... .  One of the biggest issues with BPD is the lack of self-awareness. Not that my opinion counts for much, but I definitely think that things are as they should be. I'm sorry you've had a hard time with this. We are all just doing the best that we can with a less than optimal situation.
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squashed.human

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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2013, 04:25:28 PM »

i just looked at the article from various angles and the worst one was that it's telling me i was deceived and living a lie for over 3 years and that confused me at first but made me angry , call it rejection to believe. Anyway , I'm new here and wondering about the letters combination like OS (sounds like Operating System) and pwBPD and dBPDw . . .etc i hope you can explain those at least
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2013, 04:30:07 PM »

Squashed - I really couldn't beleive I was deceived for 19 years.  But my wife actually confirmed that - she never wanted to be married, she was only the person I wanted her to be, she did not know who she was ... .  that was what I couldn't beleive 19 years and I was a complete fool - never had a clue - she wore her mask soo good.
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squashed.human

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« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2013, 04:37:15 PM »

Oh cal , every time i see you i think to my self that i should stop whining and stick my nails (metaphorly) in her face and pull hard , if it's mask that get out in my hand then I'd just walk away in peace or if it scratches on her skin , well , i don't know , long years of blaming me and another mistake to be held against me kept in her vault of my past mistakes
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« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2013, 04:46:12 PM »

Hey squashed

If you go to the top of the thread you'll see a link to abbreviations along side the Guidelines tag, it'll bring you up to speed with all the type saving stuff.
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squashed.human

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« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2013, 06:43:05 PM »

thanks tiger , i found it
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squashed.human

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« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2013, 06:50:03 PM »

i did find the abbreviation link but it leads to a thread where ppl ask about them randomly , i thought I'll find abbreviations list
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« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2013, 09:26:34 PM »

The abbreviation list is indeed here. The first post is the question, the second one (which I linked to directly) is the key, and the discussion goes on from there... .  
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« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2013, 10:23:32 PM »

Guys, this is hard stuff... .  I know I'm telling you something you already know, but for me anyway, it was only after I realized, "Hey! Things ARE the way they ARE, regardless of what has caused this. My wife did wear a mask, she's even said 'that wasn't really me early in the relationship and everybody pretends to be what their partner wants them to be.' Eventually, I realized that I can either start making positive changes about the way I view things and control what I have control over, or I can feel hopeless every day."

I'm so sorry that this happened to you. You are not alone. It has happened to many of us, and some of us didn't have a chance to try to save our relationships. I know that's a hard pill to swallow. Truth is, I have no idea if I'll be able to hold on to my wife. All I can do is the absolute best that I can do. If she ever dumped me, I can't say I wouldn't try to get her back, but if I didn't, I would sure be on the lookout for signs of a PD in any future potential partner. I don't think I would change a thing about my life, and that includes a really bad marriage to an alcoholic the first time around, and a pwBPD for my second marriage. I've learned a lot about myself and grown through this process. I view my life as being a little bit of a mess right now, but all in all it's a good life.

Sorry. I'm not sure I'm helping. I really do feel your pain. I promise I remember what it was like then, and I get reminded of it from time to time when my wife gets really dysregulated. Keep posting here. All of the senior members here really know their stuff.
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« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2013, 11:41:11 PM »

squashed.human,

I get your point and I do think it can be triggering for people with or without BPD.  I assume you're posting in staying because you want the relationship to continue- this is the reason why so many of us are here too, and a lot of us have read the article before.  I'm sure lots of people will say, "Why don't you just leave/ detach/ whatever?"  We all have our reasons and it's very personal. 

I think the article has some truth, and although it may seem like it's a generalisation, I think this is exactly what it was trying to achieve.  BPD sufferers all go through such struggles (push, pull, love, hate) to some extent, but we are not completely passive in the relationship.  Knowing about how a relationship may evolve helps us to change the dynamics and stop dancing their dance.  For myself, in the past my relationship fits in with the "model" illustrated in the article to a tee.  But by practising the tools on here, it has become much more stable.
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« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2013, 09:58:14 AM »

thank you code and thank you chosen . And Yes I'm staying though i want to detach , as she also did . I posted in another board but now the whole board is gone !
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« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2013, 12:03:39 PM »

For those not aware of this article the link being discussed is

   

How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves

The original version of this article was written about a male pwBPD ... .  and is all "he", "him", "his" Smiling (click to insert in post)

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=66844.0
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squashed.human

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« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2013, 12:15:54 PM »

Hey thanks for adding the link , i didn't support the article much when it's using "she" and sure wouldn't like it if it's "he" as those behaviors in the article matches a little tiny bit the usual behaviour of teen female (exaggeration made it fit more to grown female with BPD) . It's hard to imagine a man with the traits or behaviour in that article coz the female is not designed to be the knight on hours with shining armour who would save the man (remembere first phase)
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« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2013, 12:22:06 PM »

Excerpt
Maybe I'm upset at the article coz it does include so much true things that i faced

you said it.

Excerpt
hmm... .  I actually liked the article. It was, in fact, one of the first things I read on this site that resonated with me.

Ditto, this article really turned on the light bulb in my mind and I found it extremely helpful!

I sent it to my SO with BPD and she herself agreed to much of it, it was probably triggering to her, I don't really recall to be honest.
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« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2013, 11:22:55 PM »

It's hard to imagine a man with the traits or behaviour in that article coz the female is not designed to be the knight on hours with shining armour who would save the man (remembere first phase)

squashed.human, being a female with a uBPDh, I can tell you that when H is dysregulating this is exactly what he expects of me- to just "save" him from his emotions.  So, no, if we're not in that situation we probably wouldn't like to accept this, and we don't want to accept that the article is true.  And if it's not true for you, that's great, but it is true for many people... . reading about it won't help it "make sense" (BPD doesn't make sense!), but at least we know it happens to others too... .
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« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2013, 02:46:42 AM »

Hopefully BPDer should abstain from coming into this forum as there is so much to trigger for them. I happen to chance upon BPDer forum to read whats going on in their mind and I really feel sorry that they always get lost in their emotional thoughts. Obiviously high functioning recovering BPDer can givr some insights for us but until then dont come in and deny us a place for NON to communicate our repressed feelings. Thanks.
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« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2013, 05:27:55 AM »

Hey mike , i wish you the best with your wife and i did like you joining forums of BPD , it did help seeing how much mess out there , made me see that what's totally clear to be green light , may appear orange or even red to my partner. Coming to bpdfamily was much more helpful to make me realise what my partner see and helpful tools to help me convey what i see. I Read the article about BPD love evolving couple of weeks ago and now i have new angle seeing my partner and the mask , it's not bad perception , maybe I'll post new thread to explain more.
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« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2013, 07:35:41 AM »

I don't think it helps the mindset of a staying not to see a BPD person as a predator. It didn't help me at all to view my BPD that way, and I certainly did view him that way. They should be seen as a victim, which they are.
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« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2013, 08:35:23 AM »

I mean... . It didn't help me as a staying NON to view him as predator. It made me angry. They are just trying to survive their illness not intentionally trying to hurt people. Though it does seem that way if your in that mindset.
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« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2013, 08:41:46 AM »

i agree , sure it's not intended . And Yes things make us angry but we can't speak them , or if we did speak them we'd have to halt the argue or else you'd be called aggressive, picking , looking for troubles... . etc , so we stop and again be angry and can't show it
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« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2013, 09:52:01 AM »

I also really dislike the predator/prey analogy.

I find it very triggering and unflattering to all involved.

I don't see myself as prey; or my ex as a predator anymore, but  when I first read that kind of description it made my flight/fight reflex go off the charts; that's a fancy way of saying it scared the SH@@ out of me. I don't think well when I'm scared; no one thinks very well when they are scared.  Therefore, this kind of description  was ultimately unhelpful for me and my ex.
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« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2013, 12:46:00 PM »

 I am going to say for the most part mine is predatory. Why? Simple from a sexual point of view she blew into my life like a complete waif seduced me, reeled me in, got me into her grasp and then took advantage of my 'goodness' that was instilled in me as a youngster (Honor, integrity the idea that people respect each other etc.) She then relied in me staying true to myself and honoring my marriage vows while she cheated on me, lied, ran around on me, dumped the kids off with her family while she 'whored' around.

Is she sick? Yes but I will maintain its a 'designer' illness. She CHOOSES to coddle the illness rather then take accountability for it.

So in all honesty, I am not sure where I stand on it but I do know I and my children will be better off in the long run, without her
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« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2013, 01:01:03 PM »

Excerpt
I also really dislike the predator/prey analogy.

Tough one... . they do need to find and seduce a certain type of person that will put up with their chaos and they do wreak havoc on your life in negative ways.  So the analogy does seem to fit.
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« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2013, 01:07:36 PM »

Excerpt
I also really dislike the predator/prey analogy.

Tough one... . they do need to find and seduce a certain type of person that will put up with their chaos and they do wreak havoc on your life in negative ways.  So the analogy does seem to fit.

Sure.  That sounds like some real acceptance.

It is what it is.

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« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2013, 01:12:17 PM »

Squashed - I really couldn't beleive I was deceived for 19 years.  But my wife actually confirmed that - she never wanted to be married, she was only the person I wanted her to be, she did not know who she was ... .  that was what I couldn't beleive 19 years and I was a complete fool - never had a clue - she wore her mask soo good.

Might not even be that harsh.

So much stuff is just make-believe (not fake-believe) there is no real "truth" then or now.

So now that your BPD's story is "must be free!" history is re-written to match that.  If the present story were different, history would be re-written to match that different story as well.

This is all about as predictable and dependable as the weather.  We even call today's "weather" (Mrs. Somewhere's mood/behavior) the Metaphorical Weather Report around our house.   
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« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2013, 04:42:01 PM »

Predator=natural survival technique for certain creatures, not necessarily and evil characteristic. Just the nature of the beast. So it can be applied to certain BPD traits without being unfair

  If the present story were different, history would be re-written to match that different story as well.

   

Hindsight rewriting history to validate your current position is a difficult thing for most people to avoid or admit to, we all do it. A pwBPD just does it to extremes
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« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2013, 05:07:52 PM »

waverider , i guess nothing more can be said after the concept you showed (predator=natural survival... . etc) . Thanks
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« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2013, 07:35:00 PM »

waverider , i guess nothing more can be said after the concept you showed (predator=natural survival... . etc) . Thanks

An old fable used to demonstrate this

The scorpion and the frog

We are but frogs !
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« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2013, 04:40:56 AM »

waverider! I'm speechless and almost smiling , the frog and scorpion fable is even more true than predator eg. Lion and deer , the lion would eat a deer to survive but why the scorpion sting the frog and end up drowning itself and the frog?
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« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2013, 06:52:13 PM »

My theory on the scorpion: The scorpion asks for a ride and hops onto the frog after some convincing. Away they swim. Middle of the lake and the scorpion looks around and suddenly panics. "Omg, I'm in the water and I can't swim! How did I get here?" *panic* Looks down and sees the frog. Frog is a water creature, frog is happy... . this must be frog's fault! If it weren't for frog, scorpion wouldn't be in the water at all - right? In this state of panic, and now anger at frog for getting scorpion into this horrible situation, scorpion decides "well I'm close to drowning anyway, I can't take it, sitting here waiting to drown, waiting for frog to sink us, waiting to fall off... . This is ALL frog's fault! I'll show frog - I'll sting that awful creature!" *sting* And then... . yeah, well. 

p.s. I don't like the original article being discussed either. I don't find it fits particularly well with my view of my relationship and I found it offensive. It actually really put me off. Perhaps it needs some sort of disclaimer? I think it was Maria1(?) that pointed out earlier in this thread some of the article's 'charged' language and broad generalizations. Ick. (As with everything I post, that's just my humble opinion!)
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« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2013, 09:51:58 PM »

For those not aware of this article the link being discussed is

   

How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves

The original version of this article was written about a male pwBPD ... .  and is all "he", "him", "his" Smiling (click to insert in post)

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=66844.0

This article describe my 10+ year r/s and marriage with my uBPD -- he could be so wonderful, but God all the NPD/BPD stuff is so evident to me now.  Ugh!
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« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2013, 07:46:07 AM »

I find that the articles describes the exact relationship with my exBPD. Her hater phase started the day after she proclaimed that she was in love with me (after 2,5 years of friendship). We still talk to each other sporadically with weeks of space but I suspect this is only because she has trouble letting go of me completely (because of her pathology) or because she wants to torment me and keep my hope up and see if she still has power over me.

Anyway I will now share a few frightening things I have learned since our breakup and these are things I have from her own mouth. Many of you seem to not want to believe that pwBPD can be deliberately evil. I can not speak for your pwBPD but I can say this of my own pwBPD: I have seen right through her, seen her for what she really is. She knows this, she even said to me around christmas time 2012: "You silly fool (playful voice)... .   you have me figured out, don´t you? (unsettling smirk)"... .  

Back when she charmed me in she did so with sob stories of how alone she was and that nobody was there for her. She cried and cried for hours "I am SOO LONELY SOB SOB SOB"... .   My heart melted and I just wanted to take care of her.

After the hater phase emerged she has revealed many things to me about her true nature. She called me some months ago and told me about a new guy she has been playing along for many many months with promise of a relationship and what not. She told me delightedly: "Hah hah, this guy he got the same SOB story I give to everyone I am SOO lonely SOB SOB hah hah"... .     . Yeah as you can imagine I almost physically puked when she said this. Also I realize now that back when she told me she was SOO lonely there was actually a BUNCH of hangaround mutts in her life... .   also old friends and she actually had quite a social network. She just didn´t tell me. But these mutts emerged later in our relationship and whenever she split me black she ran straight in their arms. They were there from the beginning.

Also she said very recently: We borderlines, we push and pull... .   that´s what we do. We enjoy toying with people. That is how we get our kick. (And I must say this would perfectly explain all the MANY MANY times she has unleashed HORRIFIC and EVIL abuse on me because sometimes I have wondered how you could act like that if it wasn´t well planned and thought out in advance before being carried out).

I read an article once that stated that abuser personalites actually PLAN their abuse before they carry it out on you. It is a high to them like a drug fix. Whenever things go calmly they get bored and start fantasizing of new ways to hurt you. Their apologies mean nothing. This would certainly explain why whenever there was calm and I was happy the pure HELL soon followed.

Also once she was drunk she confided in me that "there are MUCH better ways to HURT people than physical violence... .   EMOTIONAL violence is BETTER (evil smirk)"... .   This sounds word for word like something I have read on another BPD board where a young beautiful BPD-girl says the EXACT same thing in one of her posts! She carries alot of the same attitudes that my exBPD did so that makes me think that they are not all so "innocently sick" (if you know what I mean) as some would have us believe.

Also after the hater phase emerged my exBPDs every word and action seemed designed to hurt me. She got together with a new guy immediately after our breakup and she relished in telling me details of their sexual life... .   things I had discussed trying with her where her answer was: YOU´RE DISGUSTING!... .   all of a sudden "UHH He just did that to me yesterday! It just happened... .   UHH it was GREAT! (Evil smirk)"... .   things like that. She sure as hell KNEW what she was doing and did it on purpose to HURT... .   to inflict MAXIMUM HURT... .  

And now looking back I can see that even before the hater phase whenever she split me black... .   she did ALOT of things to hurt me deliberately... .   I was always scrambling to find a sense in everything but she did things to hurt.

Of course I can´t speak for all borderlines but I find the article we are discussing to be entirely true. And I DO view Boderlines as predators. I don´t deny that pwBPDs probably live in their own personal hell. But they also unleash hell on other people. And not always because they can´t help it. I will NEVER EVER NEVER involve myself with some with BPD again... .   EVER!... .   And I would not hesitate showing this article to whomever I knew who was getting involved with a BPD.

Sorry if that sounded harsh... .  
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« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2013, 08:12:17 AM »

I find that the articles describes the exact relationship with my exBPD. Her hater phase started the day after she proclaimed that she was in love with me (after 2,5 years of friendship). We still talk to each other sporadically with weeks of space but I suspect this is only because she has trouble letting go of me completely (because of her pathology) or because she wants to torment me and keep my hope up and see if she still has power over me.

Anyway I will now share a few frightening things I have learned since our breakup and these are things I have from her own mouth. Many of you seem to not want to believe that pwBPD can be deliberately evil. I can not speak for your pwBPD but I can say this of my own pwBPD: I have seen right through her, seen her for what she really is. She knows this, she even said to me around christmas time 2012: "You silly fool (playful voice)... .   you have me figured out, don´t you? (unsettling smirk)"... .  

Back when she charmed me in she did so with sob stories of how alone she was and that nobody was there for her. She cried and cried for hours "I am SOO LONELY SOB SOB SOB"... .   My heart melted and I just wanted to take care of her.

After the hater phase emerged she has revealed many things to me about her true nature. She called me some months ago and told me about a new guy she has been playing along for many many months with promise of a relationship and what not. She told me delightedly: "Hah hah, this guy he got the same SOB story I give to everyone I am SOO lonely SOB SOB hah hah"... .     . Yeah as you can imagine I almost physically puked when she said this. Also I realize now that back when she told me she was SOO lonely there was actually a BUNCH of hangaround mutts in her life... .   also old friends and she actually had quite a social network. She just didn´t tell me. But these mutts emerged later in our relationship and whenever she split me black she ran straight in their arms. They were there from the beginning.

Also she said very recently: We borderlines, we push and pull... .   that´s what we do. We enjoy toying with people. That is how we get our kick. (And I must say this would perfectly explain all the MANY MANY times she has unleashed HORRIFIC and EVIL abuse on me because sometimes I have wondered how you could act like that if it wasn´t well planned and thought out in advance before being carried out).

I read an article once that stated that abuser personalites actually PLAN their abuse before they carry it out on you. It is a high to them like a drug fix. Whenever things go calmly they get bored and start fantasizing of new ways to hurt you. Their apologies mean nothing. This would certainly explain why whenever there was calm and I was happy the pure HELL soon followed.

Also once she was drunk she confided in me that "there are MUCH better ways to HURT people than physical violence... .   EMOTIONAL violence is BETTER (evil smirk)"... .   This sounds word for word like something I have read on another BPD board where a young beautiful BPD-girl says the EXACT same thing in one of her posts! She carries alot of the same attitudes that my exBPD did so that makes me think that they are not all so "innocently sick" (if you know what I mean) as some would have us believe.

Also after the hater phase emerged my exBPDs every word and action seemed designed to hurt me. She got together with a new guy immediately after our breakup and she relished in telling me details of their sexual life... .   things I had discussed trying with her where her answer was: YOU´RE DISGUSTING!... .   all of a sudden "UHH He just did that to me yesterday! It just happened... .   UHH it was GREAT! (Evil smirk)"... .   things like that. She sure as hell KNEW what she was doing and did it on purpose to HURT... .   to inflict MAXIMUM HURT... .  

And now looking back I can see that even before the hater phase whenever she split me black... .   she did ALOT of things to hurt me deliberately... .   I was always scrambling to find a sense in everything but she did things to hurt.

Of course I can´t speak for all borderlines but I find the article we are discussing to be entirely true. And I DO view Boderlines as predators. I don´t deny that pwBPDs probably live in their own personal hell. But they also unleash hell on other people. And not always because they can´t help it. I will NEVER EVER NEVER involve myself with some with BPD again... .   EVER!... .   And I would not hesitate showing this article to whomever I knew who was getting involved with a BPD.

Sorry if that sounded harsh... .  

Mate ... .

Get rid of her completely. If I were in your shoes. I would not only refuse any sense of contact. I would literally, every little physical trigger of this person, collect it together, and burn it. I would be willing to start a new facebook with people who are not friends with her.

I would not want to do ANYTHING with a person like that, and beyond that, nor any first or second line friends. BPDers are predators. They are. And it's not like we should run and hide because thats not a life, but if we could prevent contact we should. At ... . all ... . costs.

Yours seem to top the looney scale but I have to admit, I once read on some psychological forums on the internet (the opposite of this one) where people with BPD are and where they were laughing about how they made their boyfriends squeel and hurt. It makes me sick to my stomach and I regret the day that I have learned about 'personality disorders' because it has changed my life for good.
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« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2013, 08:46:19 AM »

I beg to differ. I dont think all pwBPD's are predators in true sense. Some have additional psychopathic features and their hater phase may reflect their lack of guilt and desire to hurt people. My opinion is that pwBPD are really hurting very badly due to their childhood wound and they DONOT want to hurt others on purpose but they end up hurting them because they are controlled by their illness. They end up hurting  us so bad that we lose our balance and start hating them. My pwBPD  shuts down and demands in raging way ,that I dont contact her. I asked her after she came back... . why she does that and she said "I want to protect you from my craziness ... . I cant control it... . please stay away when I get crazy"  I wouldnot say all pwBPDs are predators... . some of them might be. Just my opinion.
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« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2013, 10:08:30 AM »

IamDevastated - ouch. What a nightmare! I agree with Harm - get her the hell out of your life!

That being said, what you describe is not symptomatic of BPD, that's straight-up psychopathic behaviour (as wanttoknowmore stated). The two conditions can definitely show up in the same person at the same time (comorbidity) but they are not the same thing. Please don't paint all pwBPD with that brush. Many pwBPD have very high levels of empathy and would be just as horrified as we are by your ex's behaviour.
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« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2013, 10:17:53 AM »

I beg to differ. I dont think all pwBPD's are predators in true sense. Some have additional psychopathic features and their hater phase may reflect their lack of guilt and desire to hurt people. My opinion is that pwBPD are really hurting very badly due to their childhood wound and they DONOT want to hurt others on purpose but they end up hurting them because they are controlled by their illness. They end up hurting  us so bad that we lose our balance and start hating them. My pwBPD  shuts down and demands in raging way ,that I dont contact her. I asked her after she came back... . why she does that and she said "I want to protect you from my craziness ... . I cant control it... . please stay away when I get crazy"  I wouldnot say all pwBPDs are predators... . some of them might be. Just my opinion.

I beg to differ indeed. BPDers are predators. And contact with predators is tricky, sometimes you are just not the 'perfect' catch but when they want you, you are screwed.

BPDers are predators in the true sense of the word because a predator hunts ... . and then feeds on its pray. A BPDer does not feel 'whole' and is therefore always on the 'prowl'. This doesn't mean a BPDer hunts for everyone, only where he/she, at that time, feels a connection with. People who are, as he or she feels at that time, 'emotional available'.

The 'i do not want to hurt other' people is seriously up for debate. They might tell you that, but I believe they purely see that as a self-preservation towards you. I've read many psychological forums where people with diagnosed BPD actually discuss enjoying hurting their boyfriend and discuss with others 'why they do so'. I don't believe everyone is that clever to actually realize they hurt someone else. I also think this has to do with the level of intelligence and extra disorders they might carry (depression, PTSD, social phobia, etc).

But going that far to eventually say, BPDers hurt us, but they don't want us and we should feel pity goes to far. That's like walking around on the street and walking into a thief. He steals your wallet and you tell him, i'm sorry you feel that you have to do so. Please don't do it again. Thats utter denial.

BPD is indeed an illness.
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« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2013, 10:22:07 AM »

IamDevastated - ouch. What a nightmare! I agree with Harm - get her the hell out of your life!

That being said, what you describe is not symptomatic of BPD, that's straight-up psychopathic behaviour (as wanttoknowmore stated). The two conditions can definitely show up in the same person at the same time (comorbidity) but they are not the same thing. Please don't paint all pwBPD with that brush. Many pwBPD have very high levels of empathy and would be just as horrified as we are by your ex's behaviour.

Actually, the official DSM and many official academic literature will contradict what you say here. What you perceive to be and what is actually there are two different worlds apart. When I dress myself as a monkey, I might look like one, that doesn't mean I am one.

pwBPD might have empathic, in some way, but saying they have high levels of empathy goes to far.
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« Reply #53 on: April 07, 2013, 10:31:00 AM »

Actually, Harm, there has been a major shift in the medical literature lately speculating that BPD may actually be a result of extreme empathy and a resulting inability to cope with the emotions. Basically the new research suggests that pwBPD have a failure to identify and cope with emotions rather than a lack of them. The DSM does not refer to a lack of empathy as any sort of diagnostic criteria for BPD.
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« Reply #54 on: April 07, 2013, 10:37:32 AM »

Actually, Harm, there has been a major shift in the medical literature lately speculating that BPD may actually be a result of extreme empathy and a resulting inability to cope with the emotions. Basically the new research suggests that pwBPD have a failure to identify and cope with emotions rather than a lack of them.

That could well be. Which means i've got material to read, which is a big +. And other than that, it still does not make them have 'normal sense of empathy' as you and me, but although in their head they have a overflow of empathy feelings on the exterior, they are incapable of showing this, which still results in them being incapable of showing empathy let alone, a lot of empathy while in their head, they are drowning with empathy. All in all, they don't have it, as a show.

Excerpt
The DSM does not refer to a lack of empathy as any sort of diagnostic criteria for BPD.

It isn't? When I read DSM 5 it says for BPD:

Empathy: Compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal hypersensitivity (i.e., prone to feel slighted or insulted); perceptions of others selectively biased toward negative attributes or vulnerabilities.
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« Reply #55 on: April 07, 2013, 10:56:17 AM »

Interesting, Harm! The DSMV and the DSMIV have different criteria for BPD. I was looking at IV. I note as well that even in V, there can be a lack of empathy (expressed, as you note) or, alternatively, a lack of intimacy.

Still, even if it were truly a lack of empathy, that doesn't explain the sort of maliciousness that IamDevastated describes. I'd still chalk that behaviour up to some other, possibly comorbid, disorder. (Not that it really matters what the diagnosis is, so long as we all agree that not all pwBPD behave/think that way.)
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« Reply #56 on: April 07, 2013, 12:00:02 PM »

IamDevastated - ouch. What a nightmare! I agree with Harm - get her the hell out of your life!

That being said, what you describe is not symptomatic of BPD, that's straight-up psychopathic behaviour (as wanttoknowmore stated). The two conditions can definitely show up in the same person at the same time (comorbidity) but they are not the same thing. Please don't paint all pwBPD with that brush. Many pwBPD have very high levels of empathy and would be just as horrified as we are by your ex's behaviour.

Believe me, the things I have told here are only the tip of the iceberg. But yes, I have thought of psychopathy myself. In fact I am 100% sure she is a bonafide APD. She WAS diagnosed BPD by a psychiatrist in 2012. That is her official diagnosis. And she has been going to BPD therapy now for 6 months.

This therapy she has used as an excuse to paint me completely black and she is now in the final stages of cutting me completely out of her life. She claims she has matured soo much and that behaviour is under control and now she can finally get the relationship and the "real friends" she has always been dreaming of (in other words she has just used me and everyone else till something better came along ). However from what I see her behaviour hasn´t changed AT ALL. She is still toying with people and wrecking other peoples lives getting a thrill out of it everytime. I suspect she is only saying those things to me to hurt me one final time and leave me sitting wondering if she will now be all successful while yearning for her and crying over what I have lost. She really IS that cunning and I wouldn´t put such a scheme past her.

However I am somewhat confused about the whole BPD vs APD criteria. As far as I can see the criteria for the two disorders are nearly identical. I also read an article by two american doctors and they said that indeed BPD = psychopathy. They say there are 4 sub categories of psychopathy and borderline is one of them. The borderline psychopath (as they put it).

I would like to believe there are BPDs out there with empathy but I haven´t met anyone. But I thank you for answer. In a way it answers the question I have posed in another thread? Namley if my exBPD will truly benefit from the therapy and learn empathy and become a better person like she claims. Well, I guess not... .  



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« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2013, 12:14:40 PM »

Here's an interesting blog post by a diagnosed BPD sufferer: www.showard76.wordpress.com/2012/01/09/do-borderlines-lack-empathy/

I'm not posting this to prove anything, or claiming that it's scientific in any way, but it is an example of someone with BPD who claims to have empathy. Mainly it's a critique of a book by Simon Baron-Cohen that claims BPD is akin to psychopathy. Note that Baron-Cohen is actually an autism expert, it's rather unfortunate that his, rather unscientific books on 'evil' have created such a stigma for people suffering from BPD.

Anyway, the blog post also quotes others, notably Marsha Linehan (widely regarded as a BPD expert) stating that pwBPD can have a deep sense of empathy. It's interesting. You will probably also find examples of pwBPD who are empathetic on the 'success stories' sticky thread posted over on the 'Staying' board (if that's something of interest to you).
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« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2013, 12:49:15 PM »

Iamdevastated,

Your info about BPD and APD criteria is inaccurate. They are very different disorders although in many cases they may exist together in the same person.

Core feature of APD is lack of conscience and tendency to abuse others for personal gain. Core feature of BPD is fear of abandonment and resulting behaviors to avoid abandonment including leaving lover before he leaves her.

APDs dont have empathy ,BPDs mostly have empathy to varying degrees.

Yours to me look like someone who has both BPD and APD,which is a very toxic mix. Extreme rage mixed with lack of conscience and guilt plus desire to feel pleasure by hurting others.

Mine is pure BPD and has no APD features so she has empathy but cannot control rage,splitting and dysregulation. When she gets regulated she feels so guilty,sad and afraid that she did hurt others.She feels defective because of this lack of control on her behavior.
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« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2013, 01:24:41 PM »

Iamdevastated,

Your info about BPD and APD criteria is inaccurate. They are very different disorders although in many cases they may exist together in the same person.

Core feature of APD is lack of conscience and tendency to abuse others for personal gain. Core feature of BPD is fear of abandonment and resulting behaviors to avoid abandonment including leaving lover before he leaves her.

APDs dont have empathy ,BPDs mostly have empathy to varying degrees.

Yours to me look like someone who has both BPD and APD,which is a very toxic mix. Extreme rage mixed with lack of conscience and guilt plus desire to feel pleasure by hurting others.

Mine is pure BPD and has no APD features so she has empathy but cannot control rage,splitting and dysregulation. When she gets regulated she feels so guilty,sad and afraid that she did hurt others.She feels defective because of this lack of control on her behavior.

BPDers don't have empathy (or ok, if we are going really on the lines, but that's just waste of time, a lack of, or very little), as stated in the new DSM 5 criteria as effective May 2013.
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« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2013, 01:25:16 PM »

Interesting, Harm! The DSMV and the DSMIV have different criteria for BPD. I was looking at IV. I note as well that even in V, there can be a lack of empathy (expressed, as you note) or, alternatively, a lack of intimacy.

Still, even if it were truly a lack of empathy, that doesn't explain the sort of maliciousness that IamDevastated describes. I'd still chalk that behaviour up to some other, possibly comorbid, disorder. (Not that it really matters what the diagnosis is, so long as we all agree that not all pwBPD behave/think that way.)

It's because DSM 5 will finally take over DSM4 which has been like, what, outdated for 10 years? :P
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« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2013, 02:05:07 PM »

The DSMs are generally out of date before they even get released. It's frustrating to say the least! But, from the DSM5 re BPD and empathy:

Excerpt
Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):

a. Empathy: Compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal  hypersensitivity (i.e., prone to feel slighted or insulted); perceptions of others selectively biased toward negative  attributes or vulnerabilities.

That doesn't describe someone with a total lack of empathy, nor someone who is 'evil', nor someone who gains entertainment from the suffering of others. Also, everyone is, to some degree, in relationships for their own gain. If I thought I was getting nothing out of a relationship, I would end it. I'm sure I also sometimes hurt people, I don't intend to do so, it's just a side effect of other circumstances or their needs and mine not being compatible - I don't think this means I have a personality disorder or that I'm a bad person.

I'm sorry guys, but my pwBPD does not match many of the criteria you have listed for APD or psychopathy. The conditions are not interchangeable - although I do agree that they very often may coexist.
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« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2013, 02:20:03 PM »

I just want to clarify that in my listing of symptoms where BPD and APD looks similar I was using Hares checklist. If you use Cleckleys list then every single symptom fits except no 2 and 3.

But great answers from everyone here!
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« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2013, 02:23:57 PM »

The DSMs are generally out of date before they even get released. It's frustrating to say the least! But, from the DSM5 re BPD and empathy:

Excerpt
Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):

a. Empathy: Compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal  hypersensitivity (i.e., prone to feel slighted or insulted); perceptions of others selectively biased toward negative  attributes or vulnerabilities.

That doesn't describe someone with a total lack of empathy, nor someone who is 'evil', nor someone who gains entertainment from the suffering of others. Also, everyone is, to some degree, in relationships for their own gain. If I thought I was getting nothing out of a relationship, I would end it. I'm sure I also sometimes hurt people, I don't intend to do so, it's just a side effect of other circumstances or their needs and mine not being compatible - I don't think this means I have a personality disorder or that I'm a bad person.

I'm sorry guys, but my pwBPD does not match many of the criteria you have listed for APD or psychopathy. The conditions are not interchangeable - although I do agree that they very often may coexist.

It's also because your r/s with the dBPD is different than most of ours. Lying and cheating aren't dealbreakers for you, they are for likely the majority of the board.
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« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2013, 02:29:00 PM »

check lists are practical tools just for convenience of clinicians but they don't give deeper explanations of disorders. Psychodynamic explanations go much deeper but need a lot of time and effort to master. Checklists are like if you have severe headache ,you have brain tumor. You might just be having stress headache. You have to go deeper than checklists. There are much deeper explanations of pwBPD behaviors and just,check lists are not enough to understand this very complex disorder.
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« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2013, 03:03:10 PM »

It's also because your r/s with the dBPD is different than most of ours. Lying and cheating aren't dealbreakers for you, they are for likely the majority of the board.

Harm, my friend, that is a bit of a low-blow. Sure my r/s is different and unique - everyone's is. Many people are lied to or cheated on and continue their relationships, both involving a pwBPD and otherwise, lying/cheating are unfortunately rather common in society whether we like to admit it or not. Some situations are certainly more extreme than others. I'm not an idiot and I'm not blind to my pwBPD's faults. The things he does he doesn't do to hurt me or for some sadistic purpose. My point, and the point I believe wanttoknowmore is also making, is that each pwBPD is unique and not all of them have APD-type or "predator" traits - those are not de facto BPD traits themselves.
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« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2013, 03:15:31 PM »

It's also because your r/s with the dBPD is different than most of ours. Lying and cheating aren't dealbreakers for you, they are for likely the majority of the board.

Harm, my friend, that is a bit of a low-blow. Sure my r/s is different and unique - everyone's is. Many people are lied to or cheated on and continue their relationships, both involving a pwBPD and otherwise, lying/cheating are unfortunately rather common in society whether we like to admit it or not. Some situations are certainly more extreme than others. I'm not an idiot and I'm not blind to my pwBPD's faults. The things he does he doesn't do to hurt me or for some sadistic purpose. My point, and the point I believe wanttoknowmore is also making, is that each pwBPD is unique and not all of them have APD-type or "predator" traits - those are not de facto BPD traits themselves.

I sincerely apologize! I mean that Smiling (click to insert in post) I really did not want to offend anyone. I merely say what I think on the basis of what I have been told by my doctor and therapists and what i've read in academic literature. I really didn't mean to offend anyone here, my goodness, i'm here to get help, same as all of you! 

I just have to disagree with you on the 'predator' trait in regards of BPD and also in regards of the 'wanting to hurt', purely on the basis of what i've been told my shrink & doctor and from what i've read in literature.

I do fully agree that every pwBPD is unique (mine had it in combination with social phobia and PTSD, meaning already showing different behavior in comparison to a person with only BPD), and also agree on the APD statement.

Again, my intention is purely to discuss, and keep things open for discussion. I mean, I also read here where people consider 'not brushing their teeth' as a red flag for BPD. When I read that, I have the tendency to say, well, I have my doubts about that rather than acknowledging that that is the case. There is no point saying to a player in a team who is 0-10 behind in soccer with 1 minute on the clock; 'all will be fine'. Whats the point?
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« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2013, 10:44:08 PM »

Mine was well aware of his hurtful manipulations. Small & low key example - he told me that his ex was coming to visit from Perth & that she would be staying at his house. I said I didn't feel comfortable with that. Later I told another of his friends that knew this woman that she would be in melb - other friend said "that's great I would like to catch up with her". No probs with that. Week or so later i told exbf - that m is excited that g is coming over & staying. He replied "shes not, I just made that up so that I could show you how foolish you are being jealous of other women all the time" - what the? . So long story short he entertained himself (and no doubt his friend) in deliberately manipulating me just for the heck of it. And was even prepared to tell me! Makes me wonder how much of the other hurtful (and significant) stuff was all for the sake of him getting his jollies.

So yes - I'm in the predator camp well and truely!
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« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2013, 12:15:45 AM »



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