"You better apologize right now"

[Cipher13]

3 words I have said so many times I swear they are actually worn out.  "I am sorry".

I don't even know where to start. I am not a perfect person and from time to time I maybe am not as focused on her every need as she would like. But to be told every time she things I have wronged her tha tI need to apologize and then never except it. Or except it when she feels like it.

I got my once a week "rage text".  I was watching tv. (In between all the tasks I accomplish to keep her mood happy.) I was a bit to focused on the America Ninja Warrior while she was asking me a question. I heard he voice but I wasn't focused and didn't hear what she was saying. She then rips me a new one for ignoring her on purpose.  I get the cold shoulder the rest ofthe night and I apologize for being rude in my daily morning note to her. The text comes in "No I don't forgive you fo rignoring me. I have told you do that and its rude and disrespectful and you continue to do it. You have zero respect for anything that you have ever done to me. As I have stated your counseling to fix this bs is an f* joke. I hate you."

Well if that isn't all warm an fuzzy. My crime like i said before was not giving her the focus at the given time she was requesting it. ure that can be a little rude but its wasn't on purpose.  She seems to get a little better then alot worse. I'm in hell.  Thank goodness there is work. Ahhh the relaxing work. Home away from home.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Rockylove]

Wow!  Once a week?  I'm feeling really bad for you!

I have to say that I've developed selective hearing because my husband talks to himself really loudly all the time and I find it a bit disturbing because I ignore him the best I can... . until he's actually talking to me and I don't realize it!  LOL  He gets pissy, but hey... . not my fault!  He's also a bit of a drama queen and I never know if he wants me to give him sympathy or not (he said sometimes he'd rather not have it) so I don't... . but then he gets louder.  Good grief!  I'm finding it's all part of the 'game' and I play it the way I feel comfortable.

[Cipher13]

Its been about once a week. Ignoring her is a trigger. Not ignoring her is a trigger. I get what you mean

he wants me to give him sympathy or not. I'm finding it's all part of the 'game'

Not a fun game. At least its not one I want to always be playing. I think this burst has an underlying trigger. We were suppose to go on a vacation to a cabin on a lake. Then it turned into her parent also coming. Not a big deal. I get along with them and it actually makes her better and more enjoyable to. Then her mom invited her sister. Her sister is a drama queen and brings her own baggage and like to air it out. Her sister actually thinks we are doing this all for her because its her birthday. We didn't ivite her. My wife doesn't care much fo rher sister. She complains about all the created drama. She does have issues. The whole family does. I wish I could just see my family instead.  Compaired to them they are Saintly. Don't get me wrong no one is perfect. Oh the reason I can't see them... . my W thinks they are hate her and want to steal me from her. 

[Indiana]

Cipher -

Wow that's familiar!  I feel like I could have finished your sentences in that post.

My wife does a thing where she speaks very softly and then goes into her silent treatment if I don't hear her or if I ask her to repeat what she said.  According to her, it is because I don't listen and I don't care. 

Sometimes if I ask her a question, she will not even acknowledge that I said anything.  Then if I ask again, she will snap back, "I SAID YES!".

Your comments about work are so true.  Work is Home.  Home is Hell.

We used to have an older guy here at the office who would say T.G.I.M. each Monday and G.D.I.F. each Friday.  I didn't get it then, but I sure do now.

[briefcase]

You can change this Cipher, but you will need to fasten your seatbelt because you are going to have to fly through some turbulence first.  You might want to wait until after your vacation, but don't wait too long.  

First, you need to stop apologizing when you didn't really do anything wrong.  Her feelings are not an accurate barometer of your behavior.  She will feel lousy a lot and blame you for that, but the truth is her feelings come from inside of her and you really don't cause the core issues with her.  She needs to deal with those things on her own.  That said, we all make mistakes and need to apologize, but you need to make that decision for yourself.  So, trust your gut and only apologize when you think its necessary, not when you think that's what she needs to hear to calm down.

Overall, you need to detach a bit from her emotions, learn to become more comfortable with her emotions.  She's is perfectly entitled to feel however she feels.  But, you can't own it for her.  In other words it does her no good, and it harms you, if you scramble around trying to "fix" her mood every time she dysregulates or gets angry.  Let her feel however she feels, and don't try to manage her moods.

Now, of course, she's very used to you scrambling around trying to placate her.  When you stop doing that - and you must - she will not like it one bit.  She will likely say you have changed (true) and not for the better (a matter of perspective), that you aren't the same man she fell in love with, that she doesn't like you anymore (does she now?), and so on and so forth.  

Read up about detaching with love and seperation of stuff.  Focus on yourself, and learn to not live in fear of her strong emotional outbursts.  

Like I said, it will be a bumpy ride for a while, as you redefine "normal" in your relationship.  Layering your detachment with lots of emotional validation will help some too.  

Five years ago, I was exactly where you are today and could have written your post almost word for word.  Change is possible, but it ain't easy.  Are you up for it?

[Cipher13]

Sometimes if I ask her a question, she will not even acknowledge that I said anything.  Then if I ask again, she will snap back, "I SAID YES!".

Wow you are right we can finish each other sentences.  :)o we have the same wife?... . I'm sure its becasue a lot of BPD can be similar.  My W will be texting or reading email on her phone and I will politely ask "who's texting you?"... . (silience)... . "who's texting you?"... . (silence)... . then her answer snapping back,,"MY MOM I SAID!"  

T.G.I.M. each Monday and G.D.I.F. each Friday.

Never thought I would agree with that so much.  

[briefcase]

Sometimes if I ask her a question, she will not even acknowledge that I said anything.  Then if I ask again, she will snap back, "I SAID YES!".

Wow you are right we can finish each other sentences.  :)o we have the same wife?... . I'm sure its becasue a lot of BPD can be similar.  My W will be texting or reading email on her phone and I will politely ask "who's texting you?"... . (silience)... . "who's texting you?"... . (silence)... . then her answer snapping back,,"MY MOM I SAID!"  

And how do you respond to this?

[Cipher13]

I ignore it. I brush it off. I don't ever force anything.

[briefcase]

I ignore it. I brush it off. I don't ever force anything.

How's that working out?

[allibaba]

I ignore it. I brush it off. I don't ever force anything.

Sounds like my relationship with my husband.  I have to say things got progressively worse... . not better.

[briefcase]

Ignoring these things feels easier in the short term, but over the years it builds up a lot of resentment and does a lot of damage to you and the relationship. In this kind of situation, it may be a good idea to acknoweldge (validate) the feeling you hear with a question - You sound angry.  Are you angry? Tone is important, I aim to sound a bit curious.  It works with my wife a lot, I can see her pause sometimes and think about whether she's angry or not.  There is no perfect approach, but I can say with confidence that ignoring these things won't help. 

The fact is, we teach people how to treat us.  By ignoring these kinds of things, we unwittingly let them know its ok.  You can also talk to her about it after the fact using the DEARMAN or SET communication tools in the Lessons.  Both are very effective ways to either ask for something or say something to her in a way that is less likely to feel triggering to her. 

[Cipher13]

I'm not really good at when the argument comes and I need to respond... . and may not respond also. But not reponding is just as bad it seems. I ignore things what I already over time know that i can. But it is true

but over the years it builds up a lot of resentment

  It does build up. She sees that but doesn't associate that build up and release as what it really is. She sees it as a negative to her well being and personal happiness.

Today was a large meltdown over a very simple issue. I woul dclassify it as a non issue but I don't get to judge in her mind what makes the issue large or small. I am supposedly only in control of me. The problem is if I get to have all the control over me she is upset she doesn't have total control and thus I am in the living nightmare hell I call everyday.

I expressed a situation to my parents 1 time and said its just a typical meltdown and I didn't let it bother me too much. They were shocked because it would probably freak out of floor most people to hear all the swearing an name calling that comes from the raging. I said you have to look past the words that sting and just look at the feeling that is driving them. But they are right. Over time it will completely overwhelm even me and break me down. It already is.

[tundraphile]

I can count on one hand the number of times my wife has ever told me she was sorry for anything.  Even less when she probably meant it.  15 years on.

Demanding that she apologize is a sure way that she won't ever.  You could probably put a gun to her head and demand an apology, but you had better be prepared to pul the trigger or be thought of as a weakling.

It has progressed to a point now where I never expect an apology for anything, and it is a source of amusement to see how bullheaded and ridiculous she is when she is so obviously at fault in certain situations. 

Think about it this way: we married emotional children.  Sometimes they throw tantrums, and saying "I'm sorry" is difficult for kids during a tantrum.

[Chosen]

Cipher13,

I can completely relate to your posts.  I get threats from my H to apologise a lot, even when a lot of times I don't really know what went wrong.  He would also say stuff like "you're on your last chance.  You'd better apologise right now." ... . you get the idea.

In the past I apologise because, well, I value the relationship more than who did what wrong, so I thought it was a good move.  But no.  It only made him feel more worthy of an apology every time he doesn't like something I did. 

After I cam here, I learnt that I shouldn't apologise for things that aren't my fault, because it strengthens his thought that I am to blame.  Now I don't respond to his threats.  briefcase is right.  Our pwBPDs will not like it.  My H would continue to threaten, but I would tell him "I don't respond to your threats and I can't apologise for something that I can't control."  It doesn't mean he will stop; it just means I am no longer willing to take the blame for something that is not my responsibility anyway.

[Blazing Star]

Hi cipher13,

You have some good advice here, a great way of remembering this when the time comes is don't JADE.

J=Justify

A=Argue

D=Defend

E=Explain

Instead just validate if you can.

You know you didn't intentionally ignore her.

You also know how frustrating it can be when you feel ignored.

So focus on that:

You: Honey I know how frustrating it is when it feels like you are not being listened to

Her: I have told you do that and its rude and disrespectful and you continue to do it. You have zero respect for anything that you have ever done to me. As I have stated your counseling to fix this bs is an f* joke. I hate you."

You: It sounds like you are really upset

Her: Yes I hate you

You: It sounds like it has upset you so much that it has changed how you feel about me

Her: Yes, of course it has, it is very upsetting, I wish you wouldn't do it

You: It must be hard feeling this way about your husband and you wish it didn't happen

Her: Yes it is hard

You: It's frustrating when you feel this way... .

etc

Basically with enough gentle and genuine validation she will start to feel heard and understood and the rage will die down. It is a skill, and great to practice in not so intense situations to get a handle on it. Try it on people you meet day to day - it is just conveying a sense of "I hear and I understand where you are at"

A really great book to read is "I don't have to make everything all better".

Let us know how you get on.

Love Blazing Star

[Cipher13]

I do my best to try to not JADE. I wish the conversation would go as nicley as you laid out Blazing Star. I know not all are the same but let em show you how it goes.

Me: Honey I know how frustrating it is when it feels like you are not being listened to

Her: I have told you do that and its rude and disrespectful and you continue to do it. You have zero respect for anything that you have ever done to me. As I have stated your counseling to fix this bs is an f* joke. I hate you."

Me: It sounds like you are really upset

Her: Go to hell. You are being a condisending jerk to me. Knock it off.

Me: (This is where I have a hard time) I know this is frustrating and upsetting. I understand that I would feel like that to. (Then I probably break down and say I'm not doing this on purpose or somethig like that)

Her: Nothing ever changes. You don't care and that counselor isn't showing you how to fix anything. What has he told you to do? What do you talk about? I get there is no "12 step process" to get me to trust you. You won't ever do anything to fix this. You won't doe the things I asked you to do on th list the same things the other T said to do. 

Me: "It must be hard feeling this way about your husband and you wish it didn't happen" (If i said this then she would reply... .

Her: Stop it you are still doing it. Quick being  condisending jerk. I don't know what you and the counselor talk ed about but its not working.

Me: (At this point I have no idea how to carry the conversation and it gets worse form here).

She uses words or senteces that make it so hard to do anythign but JADE, I know its on purpose to get the resonce from me. So I try to slow my reactions down and think about what I need to say.  That seems to get more negative reactions as often times I'm silent... .

I don't know how to do this.

[ForeverDad]

I ignore it. I brush it off. I don't ever force anything.

Sounds like my relationship with my husband.  I have to say things got progressively worse... . not better.

In our final years together my ex stopped apologizing and increasingly demanded that I apologize for every perceived wrong.  I did that for several months, probably up to a year as I recall.  Anything and everything.  Amazingly she didn't seem to notice my change to Appeaser.  Of course it didn't help our relationship, not one bit.  Not only did she demand an apology, she demanded I restate it according to what she expected.  Sometimes I would have to repeat it 5 to 10 times before she was satisfied.  Finally, I said "Enough!  I will apologize only if I decide I should apologize."  I took back my control over my actions.  I realized I couldn't keep selling myself down the river, it was accomplishing nothing except tearing me down.

Do try to use communication skills to modify your interactions, what you say and how you say it can make a huge difference in her reactions.  As briefcase wrote, setting firm boundaries of proper communication - not apologizing just because it was demanded - can trigger an overreaction.  Your spouse is very likely to try to force you to go back to the prior appeasing behaviors.  It's been called an extinction burst, a desperate attempt to intimidate or coerce you to return to prior patterns.

Disclaimer:  I wandered over from the Family Law & Divorce board, obviously I didn't stay indefinitely.  I generally comment that most new to "staying" should view it as "staying for now" until they can determine whether improved communication skills and meaningful counseling or therapy can make enough difference for the relationship to become less unhealthy, less dysfunctional and more manageable.  However, that's my perspective, from the other side, years ago I accepted my own relationship had imploded.  Where yours is, only you, being well informed and better skilled, can decide.

[briefcase]

You're trying too hard to validate and not respecting your boundaries enough:

Me: Honey I know how frustrating it is when it feels like you are not being listened to

Her: I have told you do that and its rude and disrespectful and you continue to do it. You have zero respect for anything that you have ever done to me. As I have stated your counseling to fix this bs is an f* joke. I hate you."

Me: It sounds like you are really upset

Her: Go to hell. You are being a condisending jerk to me. Knock it off.

Me:  I can't carry on this conversation when I'm being cursed at.  I'm going out to the store for an hour, maybe when I get back things will be calmer and we can try this again.  

Me: (This is where I have a hard time) I know this is frustrating and upsetting. I understand that I would feel like that to. (Then I probably break down and say I'm not doing this on purpose or somethig like that)

Her: Nothing ever changes. You don't care and that counselor isn't showing you how to fix anything. What has he told you to do? What do you talk about? I get there is no "12 step process" to get me to trust you. You won't ever do anything to fix this. You won't doe the things I asked you to do on th list the same things the other T said to do.  

Me: "It must be hard feeling this way about your husband and you wish it didn't happen" (If i said this then she would reply... .

Her: Stop it you are still doing it. Quick being  condisending jerk. I don't know what you and the counselor talk ed about but its not working.

Me: (At this point I have no idea how to carry the conversation and it gets worse form here).

[allibaba]

Cipher13,

Just a warning that when you start enforcing your boundaries, initially there will be a HELL of a reaction.  With my husband he threw a massive temper tantrum... . then he realized that he couldn't treat me the way that he had been treating me.  Things went on really well for a few months... . it was like we had our life back.

Then he was under some stress and tried again but tried harder to take out his anger on me.  When it didn't work - all hell broke lose.  I believe that my husband has some issues beyond BPD/ NPD that need to be addressed.

My comfort is that I knew that things couldn't continue the way that they were.  Not sure where this road will lead me... . but in the end, at least I know that I am doing right for myself and my son

[Chosen]

2nd to everything allibaba said.

Like her, I knew things can't go on the same way (although I have no kids).  I've only been married for a year, and I cannot live the rest of my life the way it had been going (even when we were dating, but I didn't realise what's wrong until last year).

When I started enforcing my boundaries, sometimes they work, sometimes he is persistent, sometimes it gets worse.  And also he is angry for longer now, because in the past I would apologise and he would "forgive" me then he would be ok instantly... . but I realise that sometimes it's ok to let them slowly get back to normal emotional levels.  We shouldn't do things to stop their negative moods instantly.  We are not responsible for that.  Of course, that means possibly longer torture for me when he dysregulates (last time after he starts dysregulating, he was still irritated and annoyed 1 week later), but I can only hope that in the long run, this will help both of us.

[Blazing Star]

Ah cipher, I hear you. That sounds hard!   

Briefcase gives some great advice about finding the balance between validation and boundaries. How would it feel to do that?

Also I find recently when I am being baited to JADE and it throws and upsets me, that it works if I just stay silent. I was initially doing so bc I didn't know what to say, wasn't in the space to validate, but it has actually worked quite well as the words left hanging in the air are his ones, which I hope makes him think about them. And also has a bit of "I am not going to engage in that kind of conversation" to it.

This can be hard to do in the heat of the moment, so I make sure to take deep breaths, and often have some kind of mantra in my head to help me through the moment "It's okay, it's okay, it's okay" "He's ill, he's ill, he's ill", "I am worthy, I am worthy, I am worthy" - just a simple one to focus on.

This morning I was lamenting his inability to be there for me, that sometimes it feels like there is no space for my stuff (like when he is triggered), and I started feeling sorry for myself. But then rewrote the conversation in my head like I wished it would happen, and actually made me feel a little bit better and clarified my needs in that moment, which depersonalised it. Not sure if that makes sense, but my point is I think we need to do whatever we need to do for ourselves.

Sometimes we forget that we are Numero Uno. That if we don't like the way someone treats us we can put a stop to it one way or another, that we are worth being treated with love and respect, and we need to express this to others. You sound like a pretty stellar guy, you just need to remember this yourself and start acting in a way that will make your wife notice that you realise how stellar you are! So stellar in fact, that you don't want her insults to tarnish your shine, so you don't hang round to hear them. Yes still validate when appropriate, and when it's not, then keep yourself shiney and take yourself somewhere else. You are worth it.

Let us know how you get on.

Love Blazing Star

[Cipher13]

Blazing Star

Thank you for the pep talk. I spent the last week on vacation. And there was a large issue to handle. I tried to put myself in a safe mental state of mind like you stated

"It's okay, it's okay, it's okay" "He's ill, he's ill, he's ill", "I am worthy, I am worthy, I am worthy" - just a simple one to focus on

I told myself to her this is real and its scary. The issue orignally made me angry. We went on vacation and my in laws along with my sister in law and niece came along.  My wife doesn't care that much for her sister and has the fear that she is persuing me and I am willing.  She has always thought this. Her evidence this time... . she took 1 picture of me fishing. Maybe a littel strage but she took pictures of everyone else also. They my W wakes up angry with me asking where I was last night. "Sleeping" She says I was in here sisters cabin all night. 

Once we got home Sunday it was liek everything never happened and she was in a very loving mood. At one point over the weekend she texted me and said we should just end this becasue she can't trust me.   I want to soak up all this goodness before the next storm comes.

[ForeverDad]

Is she making any effort to reduce the extremes of her ups and downs?  Any counseling?  It sounds like right now you're striving to maintain a holding pattern, circling the airport going in and out of every thunderstorm passing by and you doing most or all the work.  This kind of roller coaster behavior is one that would exhaust anyone over time.  Looking to the future, if her mood swings, stability and trust don't improve significantly  - or get worse - then what?  How far ahead can you look?  Is the future prospect getting any clearer yet?

[Cipher13]

ForeverDad

To answer your questions... . She is not making an effort as she is under complete assumption it is all me all my fault al the time. I have done some things 11 years ago that challenged her trust. We sought counseling. We started together with marriage counseling and then due to her panic and anxiety it turned to helping her with that and less on our relationship. I have recently been going to see a T. I have been on this roller coaster for 11 years. She has and continues to use the past to control me. To make a long story short and quick. I did not cheat on her but in her mind what I did was just as bad... . (lets just say it was sex but i was the only one there. It happend a couple of times after that as well) thus the blame I get and the words she uses seem to make sense and I feel guilt for it.

When I look to the future... . I don't see anything even the slightes bit better. Ever bit of advice I have gotten lately is to protect myslef set up my boundaries and dig in for the battle that I can except and always fear. I fear 2 things when I look into the future... .

1. I do nothing and keep feeding the beast and become miserable and die at a young age due to stress.

2. I do something and the rages go on and get worse. She always threahtens to leave and never does only to always holding all this over my head more frequently and with more aggression. If there is a 3rd I can't see it. In my mind if I leave I am doing exactly what she claims I am doing. Thats why I have stayed for 11 years even before we got married and she broke up with me dozens of times. I was always the one to  crawl back even though I didn't want to. I didn't want ot be the one that gives up even though I think I emotionally I have nothing left.

[ForeverDad]

She is not making an effort as she is under complete assumption it is all me all my fault all the time... .

I have done some things 11 years ago that challenged her trust... . (yeah, didn't we all?)

I'm headed for a mental collapse I think... .

When I look to the future... . I don't see anything even the slightest bit better... .

It's comments like these which tell me something has to change.

Remember Sisyphus?  The story of the guy living his life every day pushing a bounder uphill only to have it roll right back down?  You need to find a way to change things, think of Atlas with the world on his shoulders.  Okay, maybe not that strong, but you get the idea, something has to change and it has to be for the better.

Now:   What you can ponder and choose to do:

Your choice... .  

If you can do that while Staying, great.  But keep your options open.

If you have no children, the Exit door is a relatively simple choice, though do so carefully with legal guidance and strategy.

If you have children, the Exit door is still a choice, though much more complicated.  You most definitely can leave a dysfunctional and unhealthy marriage without leaving the children.  I don't advocate separation or divorce, it's not a cure-all, but when all the other doors are closed and bolted, its better than doing nothing in a dangerous environment.

Disclaimer:  Yes, this is the Staying board so I have to keep within those parameters.  Let's hope Staying with added skills, informed strategies and focused support will improve your life.  You haven't been here long so you need some time to get educated and figure out what will work for you, but also you've been here before so you're not a total newbie.  Do keep learning better communication skills and mindful techniques.  But at some point - if she still doesn't improve - you are free to move to an appropriate board.  You are an adult, just as she is, you are allowed to make life choices just as she can but it will still be up to you to save yourself.

[Cipher13]

Hmm... .

Good analogy with Sisyphus. But I would add the world from Atlas shoulds to Sisyphus's back while pushing the boulder. Thats what I feel like currently.  But I do get what you mean... . I'm not taking control. I'm just going up hill at a loosing battle that at the very least is difficult but realistically is impossible.

Everyone I have spoken to from my parents, the great people here, and my T have all said I need to take care of me and that it will spark a rage. A rage I have always conditioned myself to avoid. Its going to happen and it will be ugly. However after 11 years it still has a huge control over me. Plus the hardest part right now is she is in a great mood. 

A goal I'd like to accomplish is to be able to visit my parents and see my family again.  However I feel that the only way to do that is to try something smaller like see how she would respond to me hanging out with a person from work for a couple hours without her being there or something that would as innocent  and rational as possible. Or me just going to the woods without her or fishing. Just to test the waters of how it might go. Because I have no idea how to bring up I want to have contact with my family again.

[ForeverDad]

Egads, does she have you Controlled and intimidated! :'(

I was isolated, most of our family and friends were driven away.  I was controlled too.  I was to the point of looking down at the ground any time a woman walked past, even when I was at work and ex was miles away!  I used to tell people that I didn't even feel safe sitting at a red light to watch an 80 year old grandmother walk across the road lest my ex belittle me or criticize me!

That was the old me.  I no longer need permission to live (somewhat) normally.  Today I can talk with coworkers, neighbors, the cashiers, anyone male or female, relaxed and not On Guard as I used to live my life.  I can even smile with them.

Yes, the marriage failed, yes I waited until nearly the last moment, so I hadn't done much advance planning.  But what motivated me was know that if I didn't so something then soon I'd be facing false allegations and wearing an orange jumpsuit.  Yes, she made false allegations anyway, but by then I was apart and already in family court's hands.  Her continued unsubstantiated complaints (she thought she had leverage since we had a child) eventually made her lose credibility.

No, it wasn't easy, she predictably "upped the ante" in her struggles to keep control.  Look up Extinction Burst.  But by then I lived apart and that distance was a protection for me.  Also, family court was handling the divorce and that kept things from getting too far out of hand.  Also a protection was my acceptance that I couldn't ever risk being around her again in private, not even when her moods shifted back and forth between sweetness to dripping hate.

Please, keep with the therapy and peer support.  It will help you accept the reality of your situation.

[Cipher13]

Egads, does she have you Controlled and intimidated!

Yes and holds the past in my face as leverage and I fall everytime because in a way she is right but logically its the past and I moved on from it.

Yes I am isolated. I email my parents 1 time a week from work. They have visted me at work a couple times. Prior to that it had been years  since i seen the as I was in another state for 5 years.

I don't think I have it quite as bad as you decribed ForeverDad but there were times it seemed very similar.

[ForeverDad]

Again, we're in Staying so I cautiously make the conditional statement "unless she changes significantly"... .

You will have to take back your life at some point, she won't let go willingly.  Use the time during any delay doing so to prepare yourself emotionally, mentally, legally and strategically.  Your goal is to become a person with firm but safe and defensible boundaries.

[Grey Kitty]

I just want to point out that the reason for being on "Staying" is to work on ourselves and our role in this messed up situation our relationships have turned into.

I came here and realized I was going down a path very similar to yours. I changed my role. It wasn't easy, but I did get it. Many others here have done the same thing.

Once we change ourselves, and change the rules that our relationship represents, our partner gets to choose how to respond. I think everybody had a bumpy ride at first, no matter what the result was. Then the road did split:

• Some (myself included) have had their partner deal with the issues that caused the BPD behaviors, and discovered or re-discovered a full partnership relationship



• Some had improvements (no more raging, etc.) where their partner learned better coping skills but has yet to heal to the point of being a full emotionally grown-up partner



• Some found that there weren't enough changes to make it possible or worthwhile to stay with their partner.

All I can say is that the work you do on yourself will serve you very well whichever path your wife takes.

 GK