Looks like I'm going back to court

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So even if I have a failed exchange, even something as serious as him not following the alternating 50% schedule- the police won't do anything? So he wins? Just like that?

[motherof1yearold]

So even if I have a failed exchange, even something as serious as him not following the alternating 50% schedule- the police won't do anything? So he wins? Just like that?

[ForeverDad]

Well, I don't know what your police will do.  But, no ex doesn't 'win'.  Sure, he gloats if he can cause an exchange to fail or if he makes you run around the countryside, but long term it will allow you to document that he's obstructing your parenting.

So you can't just sit around and mope.  You call the police if the exchange fails or he tries to coerce you to give in and go to wherever he says the child is.  No, you go to the exchange location.  You wait however long it is for the child to arrive or be brought out.  In my area it is a 30 minute window.  Once the window closes, call the police and an officer should be sent out to resolve the 'incident'.  Maybe they'll contact the ex, maybe not, follow the officer's direction.  However, get the officer's name, badge number, vehicle number, whatever.  You have a history of getting no help from the police, you need reports, not checkmarked notations in a log that they visited an address.

Your lawyer should at the least be able to tell you what to document and how to go about documenting noncompliance.  We're remote, aren't privy to all the local details, the locals should know best how to handle the situation.  You need as many specifics as possible - dates, times, witnesses, etc - so that what you have to complain about isn't ignored as vague claims or hearsay.

[motherof1yearold]

Thanks for the detailed info. I have no doubt I will have no choice but to call the police within the next week. 

Can you give me more info on non compliance? Ex has been non compliant, to a point of endangering the baby. He failed to tell me of a prescription Iron supplement she was on , deprived her of it when she wasn't under his care. At the same time I was giving her natural over the counter iron supplements, which could have poisoned her and killed her.

He hasn't been compliant in any way with our parenting agreement. Not sure how that will 'help' me.

[livednlearned]

He hasn't been compliant in any way with our parenting agreement. Not sure how that will 'help' me.

Because the court sees you trying to comply, and he isn't. If he is not complying with something he agreed to, most courts see that as being worse than court-ordered. Your ex is not agreeing to what he agreed to, and that makes him look super difficult.

My ex also interpreted our court docs (consent orders) in ways that were just not there. The judge got pissed at him for "being the only person in the room who thinks that." He kept saying, "Any reasonable person would think this was x. Any reasonable person would read this as y."

It's a marathon. It adds up.

[GaGrl]

You need to get a copy of your custody agreement, and you need to make it an item that is in your possession ALL THE TIME.  This is what is going to show the police or anyone else who needs to verify the agreement that you are in compliance and the ex is not doing what he agreed upon.

Keep the agreement in an envelope in your purse or backpack, or in your glove compartment -- a location that you can get to each and every time there is an exchange that could go wrong or a situation in which the ex has the opportunity to "jerk your chain." Because that's what he is doing -- manipulating you.

Make sure you know EXACTLY where in your agreement to point out the exchange details.  Have your info ready and rehearsed so you can tell it to a police officer without getting confused or emotional (this is where your PTSD could kick in, and you want to push past that FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR DAUGHTER).  For example, rehearse statements such as:

"Officer, our custody agreement indicates that we are to exchange on a 4/3 schedule, beginning on <date>.  It is now the date I am supposed to pick up D2 for the beginning of my 4-day custody at this address.  The agreement, which Ex signed on <date> clearly states this exchange schedule here (POINT TO THE EXACT STATEMENT IN THE AGREEMENT).  Ex may argue that the 4/3 agreement is always 4 days in his favor, but as you can see, it is an alternating exchange, and he is not complying with the agreement, and he is withholding D2 from me."

Then, if the police officer does not facilitate the exchange, you get the info outlined above (name, badge, date, time, location, etc.) and ask for a police report that shows you were at the exchange location when and where expected.  Then you give that info to your lawyer and get your lawyer's advice on how to handle it.

[MarkMo]

What is the best test for a person with a personality disorder to take so they can't fool? I will be going up against her for custody soon and she will be armed with junk.

Its really hard because she is so convincing at first glace, even for awhile initially. Its only when you know her  for awhile that you can see that wow, she is lying about everything.

She went from wanting every other weekend to M-F because she knows that she would have to pay child support and she doesn't want to work. She left and now she wants custody. That test would be nice to have though to at least prove that what I'm saying has merit.

[catnap]

Thanks for the detailed info. I have no doubt I will have no choice but to call the police within the next week

This is where you get the documentation that he is non-compliant.  As GAgirl wrote--practice what you will calmly say to the police.  Also calmly practice the initial call(s)to your ex--"Today we exchange D2 at your house per the mediation agreement at 8pm."  RECORD the call.  Remain calm, this is where knowing exactly what the agreement says will help you, because you can state what the agreement says, then let him run his mouth. 

Also be prepared for the ugly calls or texts that will most surely follow if the police have to be called.  RECORD those calls/keep those texts--it will show how he really is. 

Recording what he says before and after will show his true intent, especially if he plays dumb with the officer. . ."Gee officer, I forgot or I thought today was x, not y. . .I sure am sorry that I caused all this commotion."

Ditto with recording if his Mom calls you.  You can upload the recordings and send them to your attorney as well.  Be sure and keep a back-up sound file.

 

[catnap]

What is the best test for a person with a personality disorder to take so they can't fool? I will be going up against her for custody soon and she will be armed with junk.

Its really hard because she is so convincing at first glace, even for awhile initially. Its only when you know her  for awhile that you can see that wow, she is lying about everything.

She went from wanting every other weekend to M-F because she knows that she would have to pay child support and she doesn't want to work. She left and now she wants custody. That test would be nice to have though to at least prove that what I'm saying has merit.

Matt has written fairly extensively on this subject.  MMPI-2 test is considered to be objective and very difficult to 'fool'.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203978.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203971.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=205623.0

[livednlearned]

What is the best test for a person with a personality disorder to take so they can't fool? I will be going up against her for custody soon and she will be armed with junk.

Its really hard because she is so convincing at first glace, even for awhile initially. Its only when you know her  for awhile that you can see that wow, she is lying about everything.

She went from wanting every other weekend to M-F because she knows that she would have to pay child support and she doesn't want to work. She left and now she wants custody. That test would be nice to have though to at least prove that what I'm saying has merit.

Depositions and psych evaluations like the MMPI-2 are two good tools. Depositions will draw out the crazy lies, that your L can then cross-examine in court.

[MarkMo]

Ok thank you very much, I will have to look into those. Its going to be a battle.

[Matt]

MarkMo, you can also start your own thread so you can share whatever you want about your situation, and get everybody's ideas.

[ForeverDad]

Always have multiple copies of your current order.  I've done that.  I lose track sometimes and at least I'm less stressed to know I've got a spare handy if needed, half the time I don't know when I'll need it.

[GaGrl]

My settlement agreement was 28 pages long.  It would have been like carrying the Oxford Edition Dictionary around with me.  Thank God my ex wasn't BPD, and I never needed to prove anything!

[motherof1yearold]

All great replies. Now I nervously wait for next exchange, in honest anticipation for him to cheat me out of my parenting time.

I didn't notice anybody here address my concerns about him forcing me to pick her up from the church? What exactly will I do then? He makes it to where I have no choice.

[livednlearned]

All great replies. Now I nervously wait for next exchange, in honest anticipation for him to cheat me out of my parenting time.

I didn't notice anybody here address my concerns about him forcing me to pick her up from the church? What exactly will I do then? He makes it to where I have no choice.

When N/BPDx threatened to keep S12, and said he wasn't bringing him to me at our regular exchange time, I called DV. Then I called the police. They put me in touch with an officer who was also a social worker. She told me the only thing an officer could do is a well-child check, and that they can't enforce civil orders.

You'll have to find out from your lawyer or law enforcement what they can do in FL, but I think others here have said you need to document this. Preferably getting a third party involved like law enforcement.

[motherof1yearold]

All great replies. Now I nervously wait for next exchange, in honest anticipation for him to cheat me out of my parenting time.

I didn't notice anybody here address my concerns about him forcing me to pick her up from the church? What exactly will I do then? He makes it to where I have no choice.

When N/BPDx threatened to keep S12, and said he wasn't bringing him to me at our regular exchange time, I called DV. Then I called the police. They put me in touch with an officer who was also a social worker. She told me the only thing an officer could do is a well-child check, and that they can't enforce civil orders.

You'll have to find out from your lawyer or law enforcement what they can do in FL, but I think others here have said you need to document this. Preferably getting a third party involved like law enforcement.

ugh- well that is troubling info. (and by DV you mean  domestic violence advocate?)

SO I have no choice but to just sit there and take it until I go back to court? This is ridiculous.

[motherof1yearold]

Maybe it varies state to state? Here I wouldn't doubt that they won't enforce the order. Of course it could depend on the officer and his experience, but most choose to back away.

[livednlearned]

Maybe it varies state to state? Here I wouldn't doubt that they won't enforce the order. Of course it could depend on the officer and his experience, but most choose to back away.

I think they will get involved to make sure that no one gets hurt. Sometimes they call it domestic assistance. Or well-child check. The reason you might want them to get involved, just to be present, is that your ex has been physically abusive. And also they will a reputable third-party to attest that your ex did not show.

I'm not sure how easy/hard it is, but it might be a good idea to have your exchanges take place at the police station.

[Matt]

I didn't notice anybody here address my concerns about him forcing me to pick her up from the church? What exactly will I do then? He makes it to where I have no choice.

Get the exchange arrangements written into the court order.

Here's what's in mine:

* Children will be with Father from day/time until day/time, and with Mother from day/time until day/time.

* Father will drop children off at Mother's residence and pick them up at Mother's residence.

I chose this way so I would be in control - I don't wonder when she will show up - but more importantly so there is no reason for my ex to be at my home.  I don't want to have another scene in my house or even at the curb.  When I take the kids to her house, if she acts out, I can leave.

That may not be what you decide is best - many of our members find it best to do the exchanges at a public place, like McDonalds or even the police station.  You need to figure out what will work best, and get it into the court order - could be temporary orders so you can get it done fast.

[motherof1yearold]

At the least I will just have a 3rd party witness and someone to do a well child check.

Matt, my parenting agreement is CLEAR as day. VERY specific, including dates, times, and exchanging at each others residences.

I find it hard to believe, but my ex and his entire family is choosing to read the agreement the way they want to see it.

So now, despite the agreement being extremely clear, he is choosing to believe that he has 4 days every week and I only have 3 , even know it alternates weekly.

Now he is choosing to believe that wednesdays exchange location is at his church, which is a blatant lie and no where in the arrangement.


My options are : Go back to mediation expecting nothing, but at the least I tried

I do not even have the $ to go to court WITHOUT a lawyer.


Can anyone give me some info on contempt of court?

[Matt]

If the agreement is very clear, then it's very important that you hold to that, and not let the other party bully you.  If you both agree to small modifications, by an exchange of e-mails so there is a very clear record, that could work well.  But if the other party is just ignoring what's there and demanding what he wants, you need to hold firm.

Talk to someone at the court, and/or look for a free legal resource.  Some attorneys also offer a free initial consultation.

By e-mail, clarify what you will do, based on the agreement:  "Our agreement - see page 5, the 3rd paragraph - says 'Exchanges will be done by each parent dropping the kids off at the other parent's residence.'  So on Saturdays I will bring them to your residence at noon, and I will expect you to return them to my residence at noon each Sunday.  If you don't bring them to my residence at noon, I will take appropriate legal action which may include informing the police so they can find the kids and bring them to my residence per the court order."  (Or something like that.)

No idle threats - only a clear description what you will do.  Then do it.

[ForeverDad]

I don't believe Contempt of Court merits mediation.  Mediation is to attempt to find agreement on something.  This is noncompliance to an order.

A few weeks after I got my final decree, my ex drove off with our son out of state on a Spring Break week vacation.  Though she had mentioned going a month or two before, she had never given any dates nor given written notice.  Problems were:  (1) She did not give standard written notice as required by the order.  (2) Kindergarten was just completing Spring Break week when she left, so he missed a week of school.  (3) She traded me her Friday night and when I went to pick him up from daycare she was already a couple states away halfway to her destination.  (I resolved then and there to always get my traded time first so she couldn't sabotage the trade!)  So my lawyer had me attempt mediation, ex refused to attend, so I proceeded to court.  The magistrate stated that mediation wasn't required for noncompliance of that sort.

As was mentioned, can you 'consult' with a lawyer periodically as you take ex to court?  Or didn't you say he was taking you to court anyway?  If so, then going to court or not isn't an option, you're going.

By having a lawyer for consultations, you can make sure everything you file is properly vetted, you can review the issues, possible problems, potential traps and optimal solutions to seek, etc.  Yet lawyer doesn't actually 'represent' you and it's less expensive.

[motherof1yearold]

I have looked into free legal resources around my area, and found only one , which I have contacted with no response back as of yet.

This is the thing, he has no intentions of holding to the agreement, since he doesn't even believe black and white print in the first place. I have NO doubt in my mind that he is going to withhold her / call the police on ME when I'm only practicing my time sharing ! This week I've got 3 days, next week I've got 4! I'm sure he will call the police on me next week. Then what will I do?

I don't know if I mentioned this, but my daughter just had her birthday , and ex picked her up over 30 minutes early at my residence. Child wasn't there as she went with my dad for 5 minutes to the post office. He told me he was calling police. He ended up not calling, but then proceeded to bring her back an hour late, and handed me a bag of her peed in bday outfit with my mail he opened underneath it, soaked in urine. (She is completely potty trained and has been for a while, but for some odd reason he keeps her in diapers like a baby, but that is a whole other story)

FD:

I don't have any means to put a retainer on a lawyer. He isn't going to take me to court unless a police officer corrects his denial about the actual 50/50 agreement and the exchange locations.

[Matt]

Have 2 copies of the agreement with you all the time, so you can give one to the officer if he arrives.

Some attorneys offer a free initial consultation - maybe 30 minutes or so.  You can ask a lot of questions in 30 minutes.

Or maybe go to the courthouse and ask, "How can a court order like this be enforced?".  Maybe there is a way to do it there that none of us know about.

If you are following the court order, and the police arrive, don't panic.  Tell them what happened and show them the court order.  Ask for a copy of their report.  It will be one more piece of evidence on your side.

[motherof1yearold]

I'm certainly going to do everything I can to not let him trample all over me.

I can try for a free consultation, though I would have no intentions of retaining them since I don't have the $. Maybe one can take payments, but they almost always require a down payment (retainer fee) of 1500 at the least . I'll sell my car if I need to, but that will only put me 3500 ahead, but if I have no choice it wouldn't bother me at all.

I need definite advice soon.

[Matt]

Don't feel bad about getting some answers from an attorney.  If they didn't want to give you 30 minutes for free they wouldn't do it.

I first consulted an attorney after getting out of jail - my wife falsely accused me of assault.  It was very helpful, but I decided not to take legal action at that time so I didn't retain the attorney.  He had no problem with that - wished me well and I hoped not to need him again.

Several months later I went back and told him I needed to retain him.  No "I told you so!", just professionalism - he took my retainer and we went to work.  If I had never decided to retain him - or maybe if I found somebody I liked better - it's no problem - that's how he chooses to do business.

You can even talk to more than one attorney if that is helpful and if you can find some who give free initial consultations.  Don't feel guilty about it - you're doing nothing wrong and there won't be any hard feelings if you never give any of them a retainer.

(When they're giving out free samples of sausage or cookies in the grocery store, and you take one, do they follow you home if you don't buy those sausages?  Nope - they're glad to give you the samples and it's probably good marketing for them.)

[motherof1yearold]

I don't feel bad about it, , I really do need the help. If there is a payment plan we could work out, I would retain the right attorney in a heart beat.

I've had some friends provide recommendations, but all of their retainers are 1500 at the least. The most I can come up with quickly is a grand, and that wouldn't get me far.

[livednlearned]

I don't feel bad about it, , I really do need the help. If there is a payment plan we could work out, I would retain the right attorney in a heart beat.

I've had some friends provide recommendations, but all of their retainers are 1500 at the least. The most I can come up with quickly is a grand, and that wouldn't get me far.

Tell your attorney that you have 1K and can pay xx amount monthly after that. Mine let me pay her in installments. There was actually a while there where things were quiet, and I just kept paying her, and she noticed. Now I owe her 6K and she knows I'm good for it. She doesn't charge me interest, just lets me pay monthly.

[motherof1yearold]

It is doubtful my attorney will let me do that, as she likes all of her money up front, and asks for more every time before continuing my case. If she won't go for it, hopefully another attorney will.

[Matt]

Some attorneys have what they call a "sliding scale", which means that those who can't pay their usual amount pay 10% less, or 20% less, or maybe even 50% less.  If the attorney has fewer clients than he should, so turning away a client means he has too much time on his hands, he may be willing to haggle, and work out something that is OK for you.

Also, if there is likely to be a settlement later, with money coming to you, many attorneys will take the case in exchange for their fees out of that money.