are you still in love with them?

[simplyasiam]

for me its been four going on five months ex has been. i spent whole summer dealing with push/pull. ive only seen her one time in last two months. went no contact for the 3rd time five days ago.

im really starting to wonder if i still love her or do i just hate being alone. i kinda feel if i met someone that i had some type of spark with i would be able to to go with it this time.

im not sure if single i would ever be able to stay away from her when she reachs out to me.

i told her last time we talked how i felt what this r/s had done to me. and that she should let me heal and never contact me again.

im sure what i told went in one ear and out the other.

im not fooling myself and thinking she will never come at me again, im almost sure she will as shes always told me im her save person and as soon as her really feels bad.

[LoneWolf768]

simply, I fight with those same questions almost every day now. I want to say I love her, but at the same time, I can't forgive her for all the lies and BS she put me through. I want to recognize the good woman in her but then I remember all the really despicable, hurtful, below-the-belt insults and personal attacks on my character by her. Now, I'm no angel. I did my share, too, and while I'm ashamed of it, I was just trying to defend myself. Still, I feel regret, guilt and shame for what I said to her. If I could send her an apology and thought she'd read it and accept it and not threaten me again with the police and harassment charges I would do it in a second.

I know it isn't love in the pure sense because no one in their right mind would say they love someone and verbally and emotionally abuse them, lies to them repeatedly, avoid their mate's family and keeping their loved one away from theirs and generally exhibits some really odd behavior over the most ridiculous things. Love is supposed to feel good. I tried to get her to buy into the team-playing mentality, but she was out for herself. She had all kinds of plans for our future: having our own place, being her daughters step Daddy, building a relationship with trust, loyalty, faith and commitment, etc. but it was all lip service. I became her FWB. She cut me loose and threw more daggers at me, and I threw some back. I wasn't going to let her get over on me without me giving her a piece of my mind. Had I know I would regret it this much, I'd have just walked away.

Do I think about her? Yes. DO I miss her? Yes. Do I wish we were still in each others lives? Yes.  Does she think about me? No. Does she miss me? No. Does she wish were were still friends and still in each others lives? No. It hurts,too.

I thought I loved her. Maybe I did when it was good. It got ugly and ugly fast and deep. Love should endure. It wasn't love after all, I guess... .

[BlushAndBashful]

I'm two years out, and I love- truly, deeply love- the man I thought I met. The man that I thought existed. Unfortunately, that man is an Illusion- much like a fictional character. It's similar to how we still continue to love relatives who have passed away- the love doesn't die.

The "real" man? Nope, can't stand him, and wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire. I avoid him at all costs. He turns my stomach.

[Perfidy]

I keep reading my story and seeing my feelings over and over again. So much identifying in the posts that I read here. I should be great full that I got out with my life. Sounds like drama but that's how I feel. So terrible for both of us. Lasted way too long

[Perfidy]

Seems like nothing was real. No real love. No real feelings. No real emotion. No real commitment. The pain was the only real thing.

[Emelie Emelie]

I'm still in love with him.  Head over heels completely and totally.  I don't want to be.  But I am.  I fully admit it.  I'm six weeks out and still cry a lot every day.  Total basket case.  I've been so worried about running into him when he's out with someone new.  But today I had another thought... . what if I never see him again?  That started a whole new crying jag.  Crying again now just thinking about it.  But I'd rather never see him again than see him with someone else.  I was single for a long time and married and divorced before I met him.  I honestly don't think I ever loved anyone as much as I do him.  It's over.  And it needs to be over.  But do I still love him?  Oh yeah.

[fiddlestix]

If love is an ever expanding sense of care, respect, acceptance, and compassion with, and for, another person, I am not sure if my exBPDw and I ever had that.  It horrifies me to think that it was all (25 years) a weird, self-serving black hole.  I thought I loved her, and she me.  But maybe we were both simply surviving with the tools we had: me a rescuing codependent, convinced that no other woman would have me; she an abusive, cheating, lying manipulator.  All of her childhood and adult history and behaviors are textbook BPD (early rapes, absent/negligent parents, booze, drugs, promiscuity, countless boyfriends... . ).  And she told me she is bipolar with borderline traits (she is a practicing therapist).  Am I still in love with her?  I do not know.  :)id I ever love her in a healthy way?  I do not know.  I do know that I am addicted to her. Does the recovering addict "love" booze, even though it will surely kill him/her?  I am NC, despite the fact we have three kids (24, 20, 13).  When I do see her driving around town  my heart races and I sweat.  I still desire her sexually in a powerful way.   But she is toxic with her rage, temper, insults, put-downs, lies, affairs... .  She recently wanted to give "us" another try. She was warm, flirty, complimentary... . I took the bait, only to be cast aside once again when she found a more interesting/sexier (whatever) man. No explanation from her; she just blew me off.  Perhaps that r/s will run its course as well, complete with the scalding hellscape I endured (as well as many other lovers/losers she took while married to me).  As I write, I feel more anger than love. That's for sure.  But damn her!  She occupies 75% of my waking thoughts!  

[papawapa]

Yes I still love her. I know that I will always love her.

Since it takes two to be in love I can say that I am not in love with her.

[LoneWolf768]

I'm two years out, and I love- truly, deeply love- the man I thought I met. The man that I thought existed. Unfortunately, that man is an Illusion- much like a fictional character. It's similar to how we still continue to love relatives who have passed away- the love doesn't die.

Mauser, that's what some of my closest lady friends keep telling me: "The woman you thought you loved wasn't real. She was an illusion."

Excellent description of how we still hang on to them and love them like a deceased relative. The person we fell in love with is, in a sense, deceased. I agree with your point wholeheartedly. I hate to admit it, and I still cry 2 or 3 times a week over her like she's gone and never, ever coming back because she's 'deceased'.

While I do truly believe she'll never contact me again (contrary to what the BPD description says about ex BPD'ers one day contacting us), in a way I hope she does just so I know she's still alive. Bu I also know if she does, I'll be expecting someone rationale with feelings to talk to and that just isn't possible with her. My hopes with her were way too high.

[sadinnc98]

I'm still in love with him.  Head over heels completely and totally.  I don't want to be.  But I am.  I fully admit it.  I'm six weeks out and still cry a lot every day.  Total basket case.  I've been so worried about running into him when he's out with someone new.  But today I had another thought... . what if I never see him again?  That started a whole new crying jag.  Crying again now just thinking about it.  But I'd rather never see him again than see him with someone else.  I was single for a long time and married and divorced before I met him.  I honestly don't think I ever loved anyone as much as I do him.  It's over.  And it needs to be over.  But do I still love him?  Oh yeah.

This pretty much sums up exactly how I feel although I am only 5 days post break up... . I am crushed.

[DeRetour]

Simplyasiam,

That's a good question. It definitely got some wheels turning for me. It's been a month since the breakup. Am I still in love with my uBPD-exGF?

I'd say this past month has been more of a detox from a volatile mixture of intense feeling. No, I'm not in love with her anymore. It hurts me to say that. It's now more feelings of: anger, sorrow, wanting to make sense of this whole thing, sadness, moments of deep pity for her, frustration with her and myself for being stupid enough to think that I had a life partner. Sorry.

When I think about it, she came into my life and awakened all kinds of old, repressed emotional stuff - tapped right into my desire, fears, insecurities, and brought them to the surface. So, in that sense I'm thankful. Maybe I'll even post another thread about this.

Thanks for such a good question, Simply.

[Clearmind]

No and after much examination of what love is - I never did love him in the first place. I needed to be needed and needed to be loved and idealized.

Realizing this was a turning point and I soon worked on detaching. Holding onto the fantasy that it was mutual love for me was a mute point. We needed each other for a while.

Love lasts, lust is fireworks.

_____

simplyasiam, how do you define love?

[laelle]

No and after much examination of what love is - I never did love him in the first place. I needed to be needed and needed to be loved and idealized.

Realizing this was a turning point and I soon worked on detaching. Holding onto the fantasy that it was mutual love for me was a mute point. We needed each other for a while.

Love lasts, lust is fireworks.

_____

simplyasiam, how do you define love?

This... .

[VeryFree]

No I'm not.

I really think I have emotionally detached from my x.

Deep inside I feel maybe Clearminds post is also true for me. Although I know I had 'rescuer-issues', I'm not ready to accept this as a 100%-truth. I like the thought there was love once... .

[snappafcw]

I loved my girlfriend. Despite having my own issues CO-dependant tendencies etc I respected her as best i could, wanted the best for her, supported her, was selfless for her... . I think all those things are love. Unfortunately I didn't get all that back. She said she loved me. But love is a verb. Actions not words.

[WXYZ]

But love is a verb. Actions not words.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

But to answer the OP - a resounding no!

Clearmind nailed it: needed to be needed, came to my senses & threw in the towel

If I found her in the gutter, I'll ring an ambulance, wait till it arrived then walk away ... . a good Samaritan kinda love but that's as far as it goes

[Nearlybroken]

Yes ... . and I suspect I always will be.But the sad thing is that he cannot love me back.He has shown this on so many occasions.It's sad .

[simplyasiam]

Hello clear clearmind. How I feel about love.I'm not really sure at this point. I know I want it and don't have it. I know I can love again. I know it a matter of just eeting the right person. I know if meeting them took to long I could fall into this trap again. I'm not even really out of this trap yet. Only at day 6 of nc. I would b a fool. To think she is totaly done and will not come at me again. In a lot of way I want her to come and try, would only set me back but atleast would have hope... . how sick am I? For now all that helps me is knowing I put a stop to the cycle.

[Clearmind]

Any other takers want to chime in on the definition of love?

[WXYZ]

Any other takers want to chime in on the definition of love?

Some words I remember from somewhere: “You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness”

And more: “love is patient, love kind … doesn’t rejoice in ‘bad stuff’ …

[snappafcw]

That's Corinthians... . It's the bible

[WXYZ]

Love is enduring & is allied to wisdom

It supports & guides children & it supports & shares tears with our elderly parents in their autumn years – family bonds

It takes care of the fatherless boy and widows too

Love is a precious thing – something we need to protect and nurture in ourselves and those around.

And always, protect your heart while sharing your good things

Love will keep you safe while you watch the world of hate crumble before your eyes

Love is patient, just wait & you'll see

[VeryFree]

Any other takers want to chime in on the definition of love?

It isn't possible to describe love. You must feel it.

[charred]

Love is something that is built over a period of time, it is a response to your highest values embodied in someone else, it is finding the beauty of integrity in one that represents your ideals... . clearly not BPD.

When you meet someone with BPD... they idealize and love bomb you, and if you had a bit of a dysfunctional childhood it is very easy to mistake that idealizing for unconditional love... . I believe we do... and we quickly fall for the pwBPD and put them on a pedestal. We seem to elevate the r/s with them to the position of a primary r/s, like with a parent. Instead of flat out balking at their progressively crazier demands... we comply, argue and fight like a teen with a parent. (Transference)... the big hit to our ego comes if they dump us, its like losing a parent, with severe deep depression and hurt out of all proportion to a normal breakup. There are many many stories along these lines on this sight.

So... now... the question do we still love them... I think we still miss them, and the hope that the hole we felt deep inside ... . that they filled for a while with something we needed... leaves us missing that feeling of having it filled. It has been described as them coming in and fixing a wound we may not know we had... . then pulling the band aid off and leaving it exposed and stinging.

So... I would say we still feel (sometimes acutely)... the neediness for them, and they are no doubt still needy too. But I can't be completely honest with myself and say I love my exBPDgf... . what I missed for years was the illusion I had that the way she was when idealizing/love bombing early on... . was the real her... . and seeing the real her now, as the disordered, sneaky, mean, emotional infant in an adult body... doesn't bring out love, it brings out despair for having been needy myself to such a degree I would accept the BPD r/s as true love despite all the  .

[laelle]

It is two individuals (or more) who respect, support and share each others needs, wants and values. It is a foundation of cooperation and not a dictatorship.  While there is chemistry involved in some relationships... . nature's circle of life took care of that one, love is more than chemistry.  If someone does not respect and support your needs and wants, they do not love you.  If they demean and deceive you, they do not love you.  They would not have a clue what love is if they told you so.

Ok... . so the question is, could you have loved them?  If you feel that someone who does not respect you, someone who deceives and demeans you, Loves you.

Are you sure that you are loving them and not needing something specific from them?  I could not truly love someone who does not love me.


Just my opinion... .

[expos]

I can't shut off my love for her.  Others will never understand.  Some example of my profound love to her:

I loved her when I asked to leave our marriage.  I bawled my eyes out when I told her that I had to end it.   I hugged her the next morning - most people would never do that.

I remember us living in the same home as a separated husband and wife.  We could not sell our place, so we stayed in separate rooms.  I was outside mowing the lawn in our backyard, and was looking through a big window watching her clean the kitchen in her pajamas.  She didn't see me staring at her,  but I remember thinking "oh my god, I love this woman so much."  But I didn't have the guts to walk back into the house and tell her that.  I knew that what she was putting through every week was wrong and it needed to end.

I remember having a garage sale to sell our stuff a week later.  I was standing in the garage, staring at her again without her noticing, and thinking "this is the love of my life and she is going to be gone."  I restrained myself from telling her how I felt that day.

When I finally did move out of the house, when I was carrying the last box to my car, she stared at me while we were both standing in kitchen and started crying her eyes out.  This is after 5 months of silent treatment.  I walked over to her, embraced her, and kissed her head and started crying.  This was our final embrace.  I'll never forget it.  I texted her 5 minutes and did tell her that I loved her.

That final hug happened nearly a year ago.  She found another guy in month or two and has treated me like garbage in the few times I had to interact with her since it was finalized.  When she rubbed it in my face that she was seeing someone, I nearly vomited.   That's when you know you REALLY love someone. 

I still cry about her.  She acts like I never existed.

[charred]

Others do understand... especially on this site.

I felt same way at one time, and had the feelings carry on for over 25 yrs... which is why I said the things I did. The "Can't live with them, can't live without them"... sentiment kind of sums it up.

Mindfulness helps, a T helps, and seeing them without illusions is the path toward moving on... . it is hard to believe, but it does get better.

[expos]

Others do understand... especially on this site.

True, but others who have never dealt with Divorce... . or anyone with BPD... . don't know the torment that these separations caused.  Some people are like, "dude, just get over her man, she's gone"  Others have said "you were only married for 3 years, you are not the only one who has gone through divorce."

I don't want to play the "woe is me" card with people either... . and it's not like I haven't been able to get over a breakup before.  In fact, I had 5 year relationship in my early 20's that I recovered from quite easily, but I suspect my love waned very much near the end of that one and it was easily for me to go, since I did not marry this person.

I find the detachment to be very difficult.   

[charred]

I always thought of my self as a very stable person emotionally, kept my cool while those around me were running around with hair on fire. The r/s with a pwBPD had me in emotional tumult all the time, and it was very unsettling. Thought I needed to get back to being my normal stable self. What I have come to understand is that I was typically disconnected from my feelings and emotions much of the time, and my pwBPD forced me to be present and experience a lot of them (good, bad, and really bad)... and the aftermath of the r/s has involved a T and learning a lot... like it doesn't make you healthy to disassociate from your emotions as a normal strategy for dealing with them... that is avoiding them, and its what I have done. When you do that for a long time they come out as anxiety and even paranoia at times. You feel like something must be wrong... but steadfastly avoid dealing with anything very unpleasant by diversions, avoidance or analysis paralysis.

Feeling loved by my pwBPD was addictive, it was like being home somehow (transference I think)... but simply feeling emotions made me feel alive again, like I had been in some kind of a wallflower's limbo in life and was back in the game 100%... but rusty and getting battered like someone that sat out for a few decades.

It all convinced me to find out how to process and deal with feelings (both old and current) and change my ways to feel more alive... but not with any more BPD r/s... . as it was clearly toxic and destructive for me.

[Undone123]

Can they love?

[laelle]

I believe that they are on a constant and never ending search for someone to idealize, and do not have the ability to have a deep and committed relationship.  I did not say that they do not want to have one, but that they are unable to.  They can not sustain their emotions and therefore they can not sustain their love for you.  New or recycled relationships give them the chance to play out their CORE script again... . which will always end in abandonment.  It is a bit like watching the same movie over and over hoping that the ending will change, but knowing that as you have seen the movie a million times it will end no differently.

As the idealization faded from your relationship, they realized that you would not be the person to change the ending for them, not realizing that it is only themselves who can change that.  You get the blame for not being something that you have no ability to be.  The movie then stops, the curtains are dropped, the lights come on, and you are sent straight for the exit sign.

You were a play through... . you were not the first and not the last.  They cant help it, they are mentally ill.

[Undone123]

I believe that they are on a constant and never ending search for someone to idealize, and do not have the ability to have a deep and committed relationship.  I did not say that they do not want to have one, but that they are unable to.  They can not sustain their emotions and therefore they can not sustain their love for you.  New or recycled relationships give them the chance to play out their CORE script again... . which will always end in abandonment.  It is a bit like watching they same movie over and over hoping that the ending will change, but knowing that as you have seen the movie a million times it will end no differently.

As the idealization faded from your relationship, they realized that you would not be the person to change the ending for them, not realizing that it is only themselves who can change that.  You get the blame for not being something that you have no ability to be.  The movie then stops, the curtains are dropped, the lights come on, and you are sent straight for the exit sign.

You were a play through... . you were not the first and not the last.  They cant help it, they are mentally ill.

Great analogy

[danley]

Yes I still love him. But that doesn't change the situation that happened and is happening. Even tho we all have our own definitions of what love means to them, the basic stuff like caring, loyalty, Trust, understanding, patience, empathy, and commitment will be some of the things that we all agree should be a CONSTANT (not just when convenient). Some of the basic basic stuff was full force but dwindled in my ex as we went along or actually was shown from him when it was convenient.  But for me, it started out slowly and progressed as time went by and it grew stronger. That basic foundation was always there.

For me, its like planting a seed on strong fertile soil... . nuturing, careful pruning, and providing the proper conditions for it so that it grows, flourishes, and blossoms. My ex knows what the seed needs in order to grow and flourish but he chooses to plant in sand. He chooses to nuture when it's convenient for him. He prunes carelessly, sometimes severing areas that were already growing and also areas that needed pruning he'd ignore. He wouldn't see how providing the right conditions would help the seed to grow. He would want instant results and when he didn't see what he wanted, he'd ignore caring for a while. Then he'd come back and try to bring it back to life but by then it's too late... . Dead. Or even worse, there's a lot of damage done and he wouldn't know where to begin on how to bring it back to life. I want the seed (love) to THRIVE. Unlike my ex who had the mentality of just SURVIVE.

The feelings part has too many variables. But the bottom line is that normal people don't just switch off the love feelings like a light. It's something that grows over time and it takes a while to let go of. It's not abnormal to hold on to the feelings of loving someone as long as it doesn't bring you pain or hurt. But in most cases here, there's a lot of pain and hurt still.

I hope that everyone here is able to THRIVE and not just SURVIVE thru their difficult times.

Hang in there... .

[slimmiller]

Can they love?

Yes and No. Yes, if there is something in it for them. And if in the real sense like healthy people love, No! They never saw real love or understood it if they did.

As for what love is,

Love... . just is

[danley]

I believe that they are on a constant and never ending search for someone to idealize, and do not have the ability to have a deep and committed relationship.  I did not say that they do not want to have one, but that they are unable to.  They can not sustain their emotions and therefore they can not sustain their love for you.  New or recycled relationships give them the chance to play out their CORE script again... . which will always end in abandonment.  It is a bit like watching the same movie over and over hoping that the ending will change, but knowing that as you have seen the movie a million times it will end no differently.

As the idealization faded from your relationship, they realized that you would not be the person to change the ending for them, not realizing that it is only themselves who can change that.  You get the blame for not being something that you have no ability to be.  The movie then stops, the curtains are dropped, the lights come on, and you are sent straight for the exit sign.

You were a play through... . you were not the first and not the last.  They cant help it, they are mentally ill.

I saw my exes and my movie as I was reading thru your post. Lol.

Makes lots of sense.

[charred]

Makes sense... . my movie had popcorn with hot oil spilled all over me and I stepped in some gum... at the very least.

[danley]

Makes sense... . my movie had popcorn with hot oil spilled all over me and I stepped in some gum... at the very least.

Sorry but that made me giggle.

[laelle]

Makes sense... . my movie had popcorn with hot oil spilled all over me and I stepped in some gum... at the very least.

And dont forget the joker sitting a row behind you that keeps talking after the movie starts... . just wanna punch him. 

[frustrated b/f]

I caught myself thinking about how much i love her the other day. However soon realized that I love the person who I thought I fell in love with.

As time progressed, she (the one I fell in love with) showed up less and less. I always thought our relationship would last because I'd convinced myself that "it was easy to fall back in love with her again." Not realizing it was the real her that would cause me to fall out-of-love with her. I haven't seen the woman I fell in love with in nearly two years. Al I have now is basic loyalty-type-love for her.

[Mutt]

I'm still in love with my uBPDw after the catastrophe she caused to our family, chaotic departure, and her rancor aimed at me. Her status on FB (I'm blocked thank god) is "in a relationship" with POSOM. In 2 days we'll have been separated for 6 months. I honestly thought when I married her that it would be forever. Time heals all wounds, that's the way I see it.

[Clearmind]

Good one charred and laelle and I agree. Very Scared - its partly feeling but not all of it. It's solely feeling love that got me into this mess! Feeling the intensity is not love it's need. I idealised my ex - felt it very strongly - I thought it was love but in hindsight I didn't love him at all. Just feeling it translates to idealising/mirroring.

Love is also about not changing another person but rather embracing the person as is - warts n all. It's about letting go of the need for control. It's about having your own interests and permitting the partner there own. It's mutual trust, respect and admiration. Living life with similar moral codes.

It's pretty simple when you boil it down. It's our own poor coping skills hat skews it.

Love is simply loving yourself so you can love someone else. Having a lack of self worth does not build a healthy relationship - it slowly tears it down because we (me) tended to blame the other person for my feelings. All that leads to a disintegration of trust and respect.

I did not love my ex. I only felt what I thought was love - put no thought into compatibility at all.

[charred]

Eckart Tolle's "A New Earth" is a good read... mostly on mindfulness, being present and connected, but in part it explains the difference between egoic and authentic feelings.

Our pwBPD... . in my opinion arouse tons of egoic feelings in us, egoic being "false self". They bring out fear and insecurity, defensiveness and lead to fighting like little kids.

The one thing that was truly different to me between love and whatever it was that was in the r/s with a pwBPD... was acceptance. I was with the same woman and married for 22 yrs... we didn't have the electric sparks of the BPD r/s, we had genuine respect and acceptance of each other. At no time did my exwife try to change me, she accepted me as I am.

At no time did my pwBPD really accept me... she always was trying to change me. Used to make no sense... . still doesn't really.

[Scout99]

Can they love?

I am totally convinced they can and do love. Borderline disorder doesn't not mean unable to feel emotions... . On the contrary it means unable to balance emotions... . That means they do love, ferociously... . And that is why we find them so appealing, because in the beginning they both love and idealize us with everything they got. No restraints... . And that makes us feel all alive. And we get all caught up and addicted to that fairy tale epic love affair... .

The only problem is, the reason they love with such ferociousness is because of their inability to balance emotions... . That is they love too much... . And part of their disorder is also the fact that they just can't sustain it... .

And part of our "disorder" is we don't want to believe it was all too good to be true... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

[fromheeltoheal]

Love is a sustainable emotion and grows with time

Loving someone includes them being an ongoing focus, creating a warm feeling when you think of them, which is often, wanting the best for them, committed to being there to help with challenges, without needing to try, there is no question.

I dunno, lots of people have tried to define it, there's my 30 second version.

I love my ex, always have, and I was in love with the fantasy of her in my head; shtty realization when the real her showed up after the mirroring and idealization, and I didn't even like who she chose to show up as, never mind love her.  But under all the crap there is a sweetheart, sometimes I saw her between rages, too bad I can't fix her and the sweetheart will be forever unattainable.

And no I was never in love with the real her; being in love takes two people and compatibility, and we had none of that.

[LoneWolf768]

I loved my girlfriend. Despite having my own issues CO-dependant tendencies etc I respected her as best i could, wanted the best for her, supported her, was selfless for her... . I think all those things are love. Unfortunately I didn't get all that back. She said she loved me. But love is a verb. Actions not words.

snappafcw; this exact thing you just wrote is what caused me to lash out and verbally attack her. My therapist recognized it and said it was due to the frustration by her lack of effort. I do think I went overboard but what was I supposed to do? Let her discard me and act like I never mattered without me giving her a piece of my mind... . or play the strong, silent type and just walk away and let her get the best of me? I regret everyday, what I said to her. Every day.

[mcc503764]

In retrospect I believe that I was "in love" with the idea of being "in love."  Love isn't supposed to hurt like this one did.  Love is supposed to endure and not give up and walk away.  Love sees value in things and isn't disposable... . that's the reality of how I was treated... .  

Love isn't supposed to F*&k the neighbor? 

So, I really wonder if I ever truly "loved" her to begin with?  I think it was more of an addiction?

Interesting question

MCC

[gypsy rose]

Can they love?

I am totally convinced they can and do love. Borderline disorder doesn't not mean unable to feel emotions... . On the contrary it means unable to balance emotions... . That means they do love, ferociously... . And that is why we find them so appealing, because in the beginning they both love and idealize us with everything they got. No restraints... . And that makes us feel all alive. And we get all caught up and addicted to that fairy tale epic love affair... .

The only problem is, the reason they love with such ferociousness is because of their inability to balance emotions... . That is they love too much... . And part of their disorder is also the fact that they just can't sustain it... .

And part of our "disorder" is we don't want to believe it was all too good to be true... .

Oh God, the fairy tale epic love affair is so true.  I thought i could write best-selling romance novels off of our first few months.  And then the blackness.

I learned to accept the cycling, i learned to wait for the times my prince charming would return.  I realized, when he broke up with me for the last time, and signed the divorce papers, that i was in love with the epic story, 'the triumph of love', and now it never would.

 

I still love the man, deeply, permanently, life-time to life time you never wear it out.  The man the chickadees in the garden sang to, and the cats would cuddle up to. The man who was tortured over his shortcomings.  Then, the beast would emerge, and i would cringe, hide, and wait for it to pass. The beast was so horrible, i have trouble remembering the extent of the abuse. I became thick skinned.  I became numb. I became schizoid, loving half the man, and trying desperately to find some source of healing for his torment; it was easy to love him because i knew that he was ill, and his torment was part of his pathology, and my love was big enough.  Til i got ill, and needed some of that big love back.

I remember reading in his diary about how he would 'have to tell me when he was faced', so i would know not to ask him to drive me to the hospital.  How he didn't think he could live with the old lady.  How he'd like an alchoholic drug addict to hit, just for awhile, not for keeps.  How i wasn't as pretty as his other gf's.  How i neglected him, abandoned him, and abused him.

I still love the man. I have for the past ten years.  It shows no sign of letting up. I have great compassion for his struggles, and i watch him try to come to terms with his drive for freedom at any cost. But maybe it's a reflection in the mirror.  Maybe i'm love, and he was damn lucky to have me when he did.

[mcc503764]

Can they love?

  Maybe i'm love, and he was damn lucky to have me when he did.

Very good point!  Mine was very lucky to have me and my family in her life... . We all have our "quirks," especially my family and I, but our love for my x was real... . not to sound conceded, but it is the most real and genuine love that she will ever find!

I have very much so moved on since then, but I still find myself thinking about her, especially in the morning when I first wake up? This tends to come and go, but as I said, it was genuine and it was real... .

Reminds me of when the x's father passed away in the hospital.  One of her best friends said to her, "wow, you've finally found a good one!" (referring to me and the fact that I was there by her side every second of his death... . )

I have to remind myself of that often because it helps me to know that I did the right thing with her.  I treated her right.  I more than did my fair share of the hurt, but not to try and excuse it, it was in response to her coldness and lack of reciprocation in the r/s!

All you can do is remind yourself that you did the best you could with what you had to work with... . that's all any of us have to go on!

MCC

[Holliday]

My codependent, addicted to drama and being idealized side still loves my dBPD(now ex)bf . This side is struggling. Sitting on my hands not to txt back wondering what "I didn't mean to do it" meant at 1am this morning...

I broke it off yesterday, after recycle #4.

Truth is as mentioned, the person I left yesterday is not the man I fell in love with. That man never existed in reality - he existed in my head. I am a fixer of others, and since he paid me in immense adoration I went right on fixing and managing and coping with him - at the expense of me...

Today as I grieve the 'what could have beens' and the 'if onlys'... I'm replaying something a friend asked me as I turmoiled over ending it again:

Would I EVER have fallen for this man, if he never had the intense, emotional, dramatic BPD behaviours - in the first place?

Answer is: No. Probably not. Couple of dates maybe, but we're no match.

What an eye opener... I'm still grieving, but I'm also not used to being on my own two feet without taking care of someone else. Unless I go NC, I will cycle back in - bc I AM an active participant in this pain...

[seeking balance]

Great thread!

I love my ex and likely always will (my definition of love to follow)- but that does not mean in any way shape or form that I want that person in my life.

I was "in love" with the dream - perfect house, family, friends, longevity, shared values - we had the same dream, although I was the only one capable of sustaining the dream.

Scott Peck has the best explanation on love that I have seen and I believe.  My paraphrasing is below, but you can find the details in The Road Less Traveled.

Love - as an emotion or being "in love" is easy... . takes no thought.  It is chemical & physical and requires no effort whatsoever.  We can all be sexually attracted to someone and let that lead to what we think are loving feelings, but it is based in the chemical.  This is necessary part of life, but it is not sustainable and if a relationship or happiness is based in this alone, it will have both parties looking outside of the relationship when the natural chemical high wears off.

Deep Love - as a verb, acting loving in the absence of feeling is real and sustaining.  To love fully means putting someone else's spiritual and emotional well-being as important as your own (not in a codependent way). 

Love as a verb could be as simple as to leave a "thank you" note to your spouse for emptying the dishwasher or NOT overtly flirting with someone else even if your partner has been distant for months... . It is mindful and conscious and respectful in action.

In living my life now with this in mind, I see loving actions may even be not having a relationship with someone we are attracted to but fundamentally know we are not compatible with... . it may be letting go.

[Scout99]

Great thread!

I love my ex and likely always will (my definition of love to follow)- but that does not mean in any way shape or form that I want that person in my life.

I was "in love" with the dream - perfect house, family, friends, longevity, shared values - we had the same dream, although I was the only one capable of sustaining the dream.

Scott Peck has the best explanation on love that I have seen and I believe.  My paraphrasing is below, but you can find the details in The Road Less Traveled.

Love - as an emotion or being "in love" is easy... . takes no thought.  It is chemical & physical and requires no effort whatsoever.  We can all be sexually attracted to someone and let that lead to what we think are loving feelings, but it is based in the chemical.  This is necessary part of life, but it is not sustainable and if a relationship or happiness is based in this alone, it will have both parties looking outside of the relationship when the natural chemical high wears off.

Deep Love - as a verb, acting loving in the absence of feeling is real and sustaining.  To love fully means putting someone else's spiritual and emotional well-being as important as your own (not in a codependent way). 

Love as a verb could be as simple as to leave a "thank you" note to your spouse for emptying the dishwasher or NOT overtly flirting with someone else even if your partner has been distant for months... . It is mindful and conscious and respectful in action.

In living my life now with this in mind, I see loving actions may even be not having a relationship with someone we are attracted to but fundamentally know we are not compatible with... . it may be letting go.

I agree with you fully on this!

Thank you for this post, seeking balance!

Best Wishes

Scout99

[empower-me]

Iaelle,

You just described my r/s to my exBPDh for 28 yrs to a Tee...



"I believe that they are on a constant and never ending search for someone to idealize, and do not have the ability to have a deep and committed relationship.  I did not say that they do not want to have one, but that they are unable to.  They can not sustain their emotions and therefore they can not sustain their love for you.  New or recycled relationships give them the chance to play out their CORE script again... . which will always end in abandonment.  It is a bit like watching the same movie over and over hoping that the ending will change, but knowing that as you have seen the movie a million times it will end no differently.

As the idealization faded from your relationship, they realized that you would not be the person to change the ending for them, not realizing that it is only themselves who can change that.  You get the blame for not being something that you have no ability to be.  The movie then stops, the curtains are dropped, the lights come on, and you are sent straight for the exit sign.

You were a play through... . you were not the first and not the last.  They cant help it, they are mentally ill.""


Actually, when I finally stood up for myself and stopped taking the abuse lying down, then the show changed. 

After a few failed attempts to leave him and this last one 7 mos ago finally being the last, he realizes that I am not just going to accept abuse as the norm again and he has to change.

So now the love I thought I felt doesn't matter at this point.  The only thing that really matters is the love I have for myself and how much that has waned over the years.  I still care about him and yes, that void of drama or excitement is hard to compare to but I can always go stick my finger in a light socket I guess...

I hope I never need drama that bad.  More T for me indeed.

Thanks so much for such an awesome thread...   Everyone... Your heartfelt comments are so encouraging! 

[Notthesame64]

Yes ... . and I suspect I always will be.But the sad thing is that he cannot love me back.He has shown this on so many occasions.It's sad .

Yes exactly!... . right down to every word

[simplyasiam]

ive been thinking over my own post here, im now sure i do still love her kids ive rasied and and the family we had.

i still pray to GOD she will get help and we can rebuild a better life together.

[mcc503764]

Makes sense... . my movie had popcorn with hot oil spilled all over me and I stepped in some gum... at the very least.

and my feet kept sticking to the floor and some little kid behind me kept kicking the back of my chair? and it was one of the "Twilight Saga" sequels, so imagine that hell?



MCC

[charred]

 

[Learning_curve74]

There are a number of different types or levels of love to me. There is the love I might have for a good neighbor, the love I have for a pet, the love I have for a close friend, the love I have for a family member, and the love I have for my life partner (romantic love).

Did I love my BPDex? Yes, I can say unashamedly that I was deeply and romantically in love with her. Even with all the problems we had, I did love her. Do I still love her? The answer is that I still love her but not romantically. I love her in a nonattached way, caring about her and wishing her the best and that she come to no harm, understanding that she was and will always be special to me as a person I truly loved romantically, but such that we are no longer together and attached. I feel that way about of any of the gf's that I've been seriously in love with, meaning that I always cherish the good times and the hopes and dreams we once had, but I acknowledge that those romantic relationships and the romantic love we had have reached an eNPDoint.

Maybe I'm not the norm as after breaking up with a serious gf I've always been haunted by the feeling of "what if" and the dreams we/I had of spending the rest of our lives together. I must be a hopeless romantic. Breaking up with my BPDex added another layer of feeling bad that I couldn't save such a wounded person from herself.

[DeRetour]

good thread here, with some good thoughts.

So, a couple of days ago I posted here, saying that I wasn't still in love with my uBPD-ex. Well, I've been doing a little thinking about this. I did love her and I do love her. I've maintained NC with her for the past month and she's still texting and calling me every couple of days. I guess I've had a difficult time fully believing that I could still love her even though I'm sticking with NC. It's difficult to say that I love someone that I plan to possibly never talk to again. But no, beneath the ugly stuff surfacing from this relationship detox, I do actually care for her - I do want her to be safe and get well. I just also want her to see how difficult she was as a girlfriend. Ugghh... this is such a challenging question.

Thanks for posing such a good one.

-deRetour

[laelle]

Great thread!

I love my ex and likely always will (my definition of love to follow)- but that does not mean in any way shape or form that I want that person in my life.

I was "in love" with the dream - perfect house, family, friends, longevity, shared values - we had the same dream, although I was the only one capable of sustaining the dream.

Scott Peck has the best explanation on love that I have seen and I believe.  My paraphrasing is below, but you can find the details in The Road Less Traveled.

Love - as an emotion or being "in love" is easy... . takes no thought.  It is chemical & physical and requires no effort whatsoever.  We can all be sexually attracted to someone and let that lead to what we think are loving feelings, but it is based in the chemical.  This is necessary part of life, but it is not sustainable and if a relationship or happiness is based in this alone, it will have both parties looking outside of the relationship when the natural chemical high wears off.

Deep Love - as a verb, acting loving in the absence of feeling is real and sustaining.  To love fully means putting someone else's spiritual and emotional well-being as important as your own (not in a codependent way).  

Love as a verb could be as simple as to leave a "thank you" note to your spouse for emptying the dishwasher or NOT overtly flirting with someone else even if your partner has been distant for months... . It is mindful and conscious and respectful in action.

In living my life now with this in mind, I see loving actions may even be not having a relationship with someone we are attracted to but fundamentally know we are not compatible with... . it may be letting go.

Thank you Seeking Balance... .  I know for myself, experiencing and then leaving my relationship left me with being insecure about my feelings concerning anything really.

If what was so fake seemed so real, how do I gauge truth now?  Your post really helped me to get my head around the facts of love vs feelings... .

It is perfectly normal to not always feel the love that we have for someone, but the love is still there through commitment, support and respect.  My ex could not sustain the feeling of love when put to the test through the commitment, support and respect. (the fulfilling of the declaration of love)  I, however, passed that test, and it is something that I can be proud of.

 Laelle

[clairedair]

I am re-reading James Hollis' "The Eden Project: In search of the Magical Other".  It's based on Jungian psychology (and I get a bit lost at times!) and has some interesting perspectives on our search for the 'Magical Other' to heal our wounds.  First time I read it, I could see my exH everywhere - lots written about projection/control etc.  There's even mention of the 'borderline personality' - "These sad souls live hellish lives... . must compulsively idealize each new partner, and yet suffer the inevitable recurrence of loss."

This time I am seeing myself in the pages.  I've reminded my ex more than once that he has not been out of a relationship for more than a couple of months since he was a teenager.  Now I can see that whilst I am someone who does not need to be in a relationship (and had prided myself on that), I cannot remember a time when I was not either in love or thinking about someone - not always positively e.g. there have been times in recent years when I've not been with ex, have been angry with him but he has dominated my thoughts so in a sense I am still in a relationship even when separated. 

Maybe I'm addicted to being in love or feeling some sort of attachment or dreaming about a connection.  I'm not as mature as I thought I was.

"The seductive lure of romantic love, which so dominates Western culture, hooks us ... . We fall in love with Love, and lose the growth which soul demands." 

[seeking balance]

It is perfectly normal to not always feel the love that we have for someone, but the love is still there through commitment, support and respect.  My ex could not sustain the feeling of love when put to the test through the commitment, support and respect. (the fulfilling of the declaration of love)  I, however, passed that test, and it is something that I can be proud of.

 Laelle

Laelle - this part bolded was part of the foundation for me to build from in my own worthiness.  Realizing and accepting that I did the hard in the absence of feeling helped me just be with me while I processed the grief and rebuilt my life.  I know how to love - as such, settling is not really an option for me now.

[Undine]

I am 3 weeks out no contact and I still feel love for him at times. I am trying to get to unconditional love-where there is no negativity left and I can smile & let him go. Right now I am still in the "I hate you & wish you would die!" place. I feel so betrayed. Very mature I know. Love as a definition-in romantic relationships I think that ideally both people should feel the same amount or degree of love. For me love is forgiving them no matter what because you love them, but at the same time you don't have to because they feel the same & will do everything in their power to keep from hurting you. No matter what, you have that one person and their love & it's all that matters-being together with no holding back on either side. And everything is easy, the intimacy, the commitment, the forgiveness on both sides. Because you trust each other & that trust is sacred to you both. When things go wrong the most important thing for both of you is making it right and you do it automatically. What I am trying to say is love with a pwBPD is unequal because they don't love you as much or in the same way that you love them-instead of give and take on both sides, one is pouring everything into the blackhole that is the other. And the other just keeps taking & taking, never satisfied & always demanding more. If you are foolish enough to trust them, they will take that trust & stomp all over it then hand it back to you with a smile! This is not love. I finally had to come to the conclusion that: NO, HE DOES NOT LOVE ME THE WAY THAT I LOVE HIM! Then I had to decide if I really want that. I do not- I want him to love me as much as I love him. He cannot-therefore I need to move on. His version of love will never be enough. We all deserve more.

[mcc503764]

His version of love will never be enough. We all deserve more.

I am happy for you as you have come to this conclusion in a relatively short amount of time!  Good for you!   

It's taken me almost 2 years (countless recycles in between) to finally come to this point to where I can accept that she isn't CAPABLE!

Still sounds funny to me... . awkward thinking for me, anyhow... .

There is no longer a need to think of them.  The focus needs to be on US and learning how to take care of ourselves.  It's a HUGE step in the right direction when we can honestly care about ourselves  enough to know that "THEY CANNOT GIVE ME WHAT I NEED!" Because what you are saying is that "I MATTER AND I DESERVE TO BE HAPPY!

I cant tell you how many other aspects of your life are effected by these types of relations... .

Good Stuff!   

MCC

[LoneWolf768]

It is perfectly normal to not always feel the love that we have for someone, but the love is still there through commitment, support and respect.  My ex could not sustain the feeling of love when put to the test through the commitment, support and respect. (the fulfilling of the declaration of love) I, however, passed that test, and it is something that I can be proud of.

 Laelle

Laelle - this part bolded was part of the foundation for me to build from in my own worthiness.  Realizing and accepting that I did the hard in the absence of feeling helped me just be with me while I processed the grief and rebuilt my life.  I know how to love - as such, settling is not really an option for me now.

Seekingbalance and Laelle: I thoroughly LOVE both of your quotes. I always thought I knew how to love, also. My ex BPD'er said I wasn't capable of loving someone else. Maybe she gets that idea from all the fighting. Well just because I had enough of her BS and mind games, deception, lies, manipulation, controlling nature, insecurity, jealousy and vindictiveness and decided to fight back does not in any way mean I'm not a man with a big heart who knows how to love someone unconditionally.

If her version of love is to... .

... . seduce a man because of her low self-esteem in order to control him and/or validate herself, become controlling and jealous due to her own insecurities, isolate him from his friends and family, create drama to gauge his feelings for her, avoid his family and make sure he never meets hers, play the perpetual victim, her childhood issues and the fact that kids teased her at school for developing at an early age (I'm sure that brings back some bad childhood memories, but it also brought to her attention the fact that boys were noticing her  - hence another reason for her seduction game), cutting her leg to send to him for a reaction (which was utter shock and panic when she did that to me), let her husband take care of her and make her b/f feel like he's just some guy,  ... .

... . then boy is she in for a lot of disappointments. She'll meet two types of guys: One will run at the first sign of her issues/baggage and the other will realize he won't have any type of future with her and she'll just be a booty call.

I actually told her based on her marriage, living situation, and her issues/baggage that those would be the two guys she'd meet. I'm sure she doesn't care one way or the other as long as her needs (ahem) are met. And that isn't love.

Braveheart768

[Ironmanrises]

Yes. I wish i wasn't, but i am. But only with her "nice" side. The side that overflowed with nice words, attention, that actually interacted with you. But that isn't enough. You have the other side. The mean side. The side that wants nothing to do with ONLY you. The monster. Unfortunately... . That side is interwoven with the nice side. They are one and the same. Both. So technically, i am in love with a monster. I wish i wasn't. I tumble still.

[Blaise]

I am finally in love with her. I think that she deserves to be loved as aynone. I feel compassion for her and hope that she will overcome the disease. To me, letting her go is an act of love.

[mcc503764]

I admittedly do still love the good side of her, but it's hard to see the forest through the trees with her... .

I think that the "good side" isn't the real person though?  The "good side" that would come out when she wanted / needed something?  The "good side" that would be present when she was trying to reengage with me during the r/s and the many recycles which followed... . that very "good side," would ultimately hook me and suck me back into her... . the "good side" that she would need to show after one of her rebounds, that would hook me so that she wouldn't have to feel the pain, guilt, and shame from yet another failed r/s... .

I know that I cannot possibly trust that "good side," as it has burned me too many times... . it's not worth the pain.  I tried, but it comes to the point to where you have to ask yourself, "at what expense?" 

Same cycle... . "good side" would hook me, and then she would slowly pull away leaving me wondering what happened?  Then she would turn around, blame me for something and use it to justify her pulling away... . Only to ultimately find out that she was back with Bob, Bill, Joe, or whoever... .

I am personally offended by her actions.  She insults my intelligence.  I have walked away... . N/C... . not really sure if she will try again when her next one falls through, but I don't think I really care any longer?

Nothing has changed with her... . same game different players I guess... .

I wish her well, but I cannot possibly continue to try and "love" this unloveable person!

MCC

[jollygreen]

I'm in love with that first person I met.  She was perfect, and hell I would've married that person.  She doesn't exist any more though.  When I last talked to her she was someone I've never met before.  The girl I knew and fell in love with slowly faded away as time went on over the 3 years.  Which begs the question, did that person ever exist to begin with.  I feel like I was in love with an idea or figment of my imagination.  When I look at old pictures of her now, she just seems like another face, I don't even recognize it.  What a dream.

[mcc503764]

I honestly believe that we are "in love" with them until WE get to the point to where WE believe that WE deserve to be treated better than this!

Once we have worked on OURSELVES enough and have learned to love OURSELVES, we see things in an entirely different light!  We deserve better!  And I am really to the point to where I wont settle for less!

On a serious note, I do wish to actually thank my xBPD for this hell, because I have gained such a self awareness and a newfound love for MYSELF that wouldn't have been possible had I not gone through this experience!

MCC

[charred]

I honestly believe that we are "in love" with them until WE get to the point to where WE believe that WE deserve to be treated better than this!

Once we have worked on OURSELVES enough and have learned to love OURSELVES, we see things in an entirely different light!  We deserve better!  And I am really to the point to where I wont settle for less!

On a serious note, I do wish to actually thank my xBPD for this hell, because I have gained such a self awareness and a newfound love for MYSELF that wouldn't have been possible had I not gone through this experience!

MCC

There is something to that... . it was such a slap in the face wake up call that it managed to get my attention... . and get me working on my own issues. Seems like we are rebuilding from our rubble.

[Emelie Emelie]

Charred:  That's a really good reminder of why we're here.  We are grieving our relationships but we're also here to work on ourselves.  The challenge is changing the focus from them to us.

[Clearmind]

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