Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
January 27, 2021, 02:02:35 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Harri, Once Removed
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, I Am Redeemed, Mutt, Turkish
  Help!   Groups   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
222
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Why do you think they are better after us?  (Read 10358 times)
Deleted
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 209



« on: October 01, 2013, 06:56:14 PM »

Just out of curiosity... .


Why do you think your BPDex partner will be better or 'is' better with the next person? What's the reason behind this irrational fear?

It's worth noting that their life, however grand it may seem on social networking sites or elsewhere, is complete nonsense and a mask. But what I want to know is what is the reason behind YOUR thinking? Whats the reason behind this fear?
Logged
Johan
**
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 61


« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2013, 07:45:32 PM »

I reckon it's because we were left

- confused

- feeling like failures

- worthless

and when see them now we think it all double over... .

It's good to realise the 'mask' it's difficult when all seems so happy.

It's what makes me feel better, but have to get people to realise they aren't happy. I would be so jealous and think I'm worthless right now if it wasn't for learning about the illness and here... i hope shes back in therapy at the same time... .i want her to be happy, but i see the lies online and know its lies... .because i actually know... .

So i have so much sympathy for her but it all begins at home, you come 1st... .take a leafe out of their bok i say to myself...
Logged
simplyasiam
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 372


« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2013, 07:47:22 PM »

for me the fear came from seeing her change so fast and seem to be over the BPD made me feel like maybe i really was holding her back the reason for her troubles.

what i didnt know was she was really in super BPD mode nothing mattered but her and her wants.

six months latter shes in the same shape she was in last fall, depressed and starting the cycle over again
Logged
peas
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: single
Posts: 376


« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2013, 08:28:43 PM »

I love this thread question because it is a conundrum that befalls most of us exiting a BPD r/s.

My theories:

1) during the r/s they conditioned us to be weak, scared and miserable, so it's residual after they are gone and we assume they move on with the power we gave them

2) we tried hard to make them happy, they weren't satisfied, so it stands to "reason" that we were the problem and therefore a "better" situation for them is without us

A lot of the problem is in their communication. When these BPD r/s's end, we are given all the blame and made to feel bad. They convey this through hurtful language and tweaked logic.
Logged
eeyore
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: in a relationship
Posts: 5927



« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2013, 08:33:10 PM »

I personally don't think they are better.  But I'm currently not thinking that much about him.  I'm trying to just think about me and my personal growth.  I find contemplating what is going to happen to him unhealthy for me right now. 
Logged
Ironmanrises
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1774


« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2013, 09:00:08 PM »

If the non is still in the FOG... .

That probably answers your question.
Logged
bpdspell
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: Married.
Posts: 892


« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2013, 09:50:56 PM »

It's a complex answer but many of us believe the lie that we are "at fault" for not being good enough for them.

When we are abandoned and betrayed by them it triggers our deepest insecurities... .(insecurities that have lived inside of us before we met them)... .of not being worthy and them being with new supply validates that deeply held belief.

Feelings of unworthiness (on our part) are what often cause us to create a narrative of them being happier without us. It doesn't help that they are experts at "acting happy" when in truth they are shame filled, hate themselves and totally disconnected from reality.  My ex deserves an Academy Award for his ability to "keep up appearances" but on the inside he suffers tremendously.

I think we often get caught up in the facade and use this as validation that they're "normal", "happier" or better for someone else.

Lies. All Lies. Wherever they go their mental illness goes with them.

Spell
Logged
Oliolioxenfree
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 107


« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2013, 10:01:07 PM »

Why are they better after us?

Well the short answer is, they aren’t.

It’s a mask, and an illusion.   They love the honeymoon glow of new relationships, but cannot sustain true emotionally healthy connections with ANYONE.

I think a lot of our confusion and us thinking they are better stems from our own insecurities.  Over the course of the relationship they chipped away at our self esteem, we didn’t trust ourselves enough to leave (some of us did), but something inside of us gets triggered (just like it does to them) that this type of person doesn’t think we are good enough, but they miraculously change for the next person. Therefore we aren’t good enough.   Weve been conditioned to think this way.

The point is the next person is not better than you.  They were in the right place at the right time (or so they think... because its more like wrong place wrong time because their relationship will be a nightmare) and they really do not change.  Very very very very few do most don’t.  And to be honest, when they appear to change its that many times they will try harder with the next person because they want to impress them (remember when they did that with you?)  Chances are you got a little more than the partner before you.   Additionally, the next person/victim, may 1. Ignore red flags and have their own issues 2. Be just as messed up 3.  be more accepting of the poor behavior.  At this juncture, that is no longer you.

We feel like we need to be validated by them showing us they haven’t changed.  Its almost like, well At least they haven’t changed for the next person... The bottom line is that they are still hitty.

Think about it this way, anyone who treated you like garbage, then quickly moved on or even cheated and left for that person, is INCAPABLE of learning from the relationship and applying the lessons to their next one.  Because that type of behavior isn’t that of someone who is emotionally healthy.  Chances are unbelievably low that they have changed and if so will be able to  sustain it. This goes for people who aren’t disordered.  Now throw mental illness up in that equation and think about whether or not change is remotely possible.

Don’t be fooled at their blatant attempts to make you think they are happy, have changed , and have moved on.   Many on this board will tell you, and you will see (my BPDex included) the BPDex enjoys parading their new love interests on social media sites like they are the love of their life.  Give it time, itll end the same way as yours did. 

THEY. DON’T. CHANGE.

Logged
ThisIsMyNamelol

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 18


« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2013, 10:38:18 PM »

     It would be the only logical way to explain how someone could tell you they'll love you forever one minute, then leave you and be "in love" with someone else the next. The first thing I thought was, "Well, clearly she found something better." because otherwise, it's just not possible. But I'm just starting to come to terms with the fact that these people just don't think logically.

     My question is, what is "better" to people with BPD? Is there such a thing? Is there really any profound difference between a 2 month, or a 2 year relationship to them? Or does it all just fill the same niche? I'm still learning, so pardon my ignorance.
Logged
peas
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: single
Posts: 376


« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2013, 11:05:33 PM »

Maybe we should be thinking about how we were better before them.
Logged
musicfan42
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 509


« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2013, 12:31:35 AM »

I don't. My BPD ex is just the same-not any worse, not any better... just more of the same. I know that he'll just repeat the same relationship patterns again. I think he's stuck in Groundhog Day really in his life... just stuck.
Logged
UmbrellaBoy
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Posts: 116


« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2013, 12:47:35 AM »

I'll start by saying: we should genuinely hope that the ARE happier with the next person. If we've truly let go, then we should want them to have gotten better and be happy, even if it isn't with us, even if for some reason we were holding them back or they needed a blank slate and a fresh start before they could truly heal. Why we would fear their happiness is nothing but our own insecurity and envy and jealousy (and in that sense isn't really different from a normal romantic break-up).

However, if I've learned anything in learning that he was BPD... .it's that he is unlikely to pull a sudden change like that without therapy, that he's likely going to repeat similar patterns (especially since, in my case, he seems to have run back to another [alcoholic] ex from before me!) So what makes us entertain the doubt that maybe this time around things are going to go well for them (even if we should, actually, want that for them; but we all know the idea triggers our jealousy) when we know it is so unrealistic? I think that's also our insecurities. We were taken for such a roller-coaster ride, and at moments they seemed to love us so much (but couldn't sustain the commitment in their heads) that it is very invalidating to feel like maybe the strength of their love for someone else is now suddenly so strong as to overcome their deep-seated commitment issues, even though we tried so hard to be patient with those issues ourselves.

Yes, it is comforting thinking/knowing that it wasn't our fault, a lack of love, or a lack of attractiveness on our part. There is a schadenfreude in imagining that it's just going to keep happening to them because it means that their condition will be "its own natural punishment" for the ways it caused them to hurt us, that the best revenge is letting them self-destruct through the very same patterns they pulled with us. There is a justice to it.

I think most especially some of us want to believe it because a diagnosis of BPD helped us make sense of all the craziness in a way that didn't mean we were crazy ourselves, or desperately clinging to someone who "just wasn't that into" us. It also helps some of us cling to the hope (however much we deny it) that the new relationship is guaranteed to fall apart and that a recycle attempt with us then becomes almost inevitable (and we can do with it what we want: either try again, or shoot them down now that we'd have the upper-hand with the tables turned, them crawling back to us!)

But at the end of the day we should only use this crutch for so long, and eventually shouldn't fear the idea that they've gotten better and found happiness with someone else. It's unlikely, and maybe it would threaten the narrative of BPD that allowed us to make sense of how they treated us, and it takes away the hope of justice and future recycles... .but if we truly let go, we should want them to be happy even if it is with someone else, even if the change that cures them comes on suddenly and apart from us in spite of all our own efforts over the course of the relationship to be the one with whom things would be different. Indeed, if such an unlikely turn-around were to happen with their next person (or someone else down the line) we can rest assured, I think, that after such a change they will look back with remorse (in their new self-awareness) at the way they treated past relationships, and that what they went through with us contributed in some small degree to their gaining the self-knowledge that eventually allowed them to change or get help.

But, yeah, it's unlikely. So yay schadenfreude and the ability to blame things on a personality disorder and hope for a recycle in a few months!
Logged

Ironmanrises
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1774


« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2013, 04:45:54 AM »

I'll start by saying: we should genuinely hope that the ARE happier with the next person. If we've truly let go, then we should want them to have gotten better and be happy, even if it isn't with us, even if for some reason we were holding them back or they needed a blank slate and a fresh start before they could truly heal. Why we would fear their happiness is nothing but our own insecurity and envy and jealousy (and in that sense isn't really different from a normal romantic break-up).

However, if I've learned anything in learning that he was BPD... .it's that he is unlikely to pull a sudden change like that without therapy, that he's likely going to repeat similar patterns (especially since, in my case, he seems to have run back to another [alcoholic] ex from before me!) So what makes us entertain the doubt that maybe this time around things are going to go well for them (even if we should, actually, want that for them; but we all know the idea triggers our jealousy) when we know it is so unrealistic? I think that's also our insecurities. We were taken for such a roller-coaster ride, and at moments they seemed to love us so much (but couldn't sustain the commitment in their heads) that it is very invalidating to feel like maybe the strength of their love for someone else is now suddenly so strong as to overcome their deep-seated commitment issues, even though we tried so hard to be patient with those issues ourselves.

Yes, it is comforting thinking/knowing that it wasn't our fault, a lack of love, or a lack of attractiveness on our part. There is a schadenfreude in imagining that it's just going to keep happening to them because it means that their condition will be "its own natural punishment" for the ways it caused them to hurt us, that the best revenge is letting them self-destruct through the very same patterns they pulled with us. There is a justice to it.

I think most especially some of us want to believe it because a diagnosis of BPD helped us make sense of all the craziness in a way that didn't mean we were crazy ourselves, or desperately clinging to someone who "just wasn't that into" us. It also helps some of us cling to the hope (however much we deny it) that the new relationship is guaranteed to fall apart and that a recycle attempt with us then becomes almost inevitable (and we can do with it what we want: either try again, or shoot them down now that we'd have the upper-hand with the tables turned, them crawling back to us!)

But at the end of the day we should only use this crutch for so long, and eventually shouldn't fear the idea that they've gotten better and found happiness with someone else. It's unlikely, and maybe it would threaten the narrative of BPD that allowed us to make sense of how they treated us, and it takes away the hope of justice and future recycles... .but if we truly let go, we should want them to be happy even if it is with someone else, even if the change that cures them comes on suddenly and apart from us in spite of all our own efforts over the course of the relationship to be the one with whom things would be different. Indeed, if such an unlikely turn-around were to happen with their next person (or someone else down the line) we can rest assured, I think, that after such a change they will look back with remorse (in their new self-awareness) at the way they treated past relationships, and that what they went through with us contributed in some small degree to their gaining the self-knowledge that eventually allowed them to change or get help.

But, yeah, it's unlikely. So yay schadenfreude and the ability to blame things on a personality disorder and hope for a recycle in a few months!

In bold.

I get what you are trying to say.

You should wish an ex partner happiness with the next person... .

However... .

That would only apply to someone that respectfully exited the relationship.

Someone with BPD does not respectfully exit a relationship.

If you read the accounts here... .

You will notice a scary pattern of... .

Abrupt cut off... .

Switching on/off of feelings... .

Cheating... .

PwBPD usually leaving the non... .

Then returning... .

To leave yet again... .

With the same exact pattern of behavior as before.


Logged
snappafcw
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 295


« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2013, 05:07:39 AM »

I have nothing but love and compassion for my ex and I wish her happiness despite her lies and possible cheating and definite deception. It starts from me. I saw so many red flags and I ignored them that part of It i have to own. Her part of it she isn't capable of owning which means unless she gets help she will treat people like this for the rest of her life. Having people hate her on an ongoing basis is going to be torture and I don't wish that on her or anyone. I really hope one day she gets help and will be happily married with a family... .

I still wish it was me and It was all a lie and I still hurt you don't just get over falling in love. But I forgive her and wish her happiness no matter how much it hurts me and that again is the issue i need to deal with within myself... .
Logged
goldylamont
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1083



« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2013, 05:59:02 AM »

i don't really trust someone who wishes an abusive ex good tidings unless it's been at least several years of NC and healing going on. IMO nons can abuse the idea of forgiveness as a way to avoid feeling true grief/anger, which in the right context is where true health and growth reside (in the earlier stages of recovery).

to me, forgiveness simply means, this person can no longer hurt me, in any way.

if you bumped into your ex today happily making out with your replacement portraying the good life that you are saying you wish for them--would you feel nervous/sad/angry/anxious in any way? if so then i feel it's more important to trust what our bodies are telling us--that this person can still hurt us, and don't worry so much about forgiveness (yet).

sorry if this is countering some others posts... .this isn't directed at people here i've just had friends who do this; talking about forgiveness when i don't feel like it's all the way true. to me, nons use "forgiveness" the same way a BPD would use "happiness"--to try and project to the world that they are stronger than they may actually feel. of course, there's exceptions to this rule, my apologies if this isn't true for you.
Logged
snappafcw
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 295


« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2013, 06:20:50 AM »

I think your post is a little general and unfair. If i saw my ex with a new man of course id be shattered, nervous and anxious... .and hurt. I still wish her well I'm trying to be the bigger man and just trust in my good values and work on my shortcomings
Logged
snappafcw
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 295


« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2013, 06:32:51 AM »

Society these days has a very bitter and resentful view on things at times... .I feel sadness and anger but  I never want to hate I just want to let go... .Its a part of my Christian beliefs but I won't go into it as i think its fair to keep this place neutral.

I'm from perfect I'm trying to do the right thing though even if those around me will not. Like a lot of people here say I can't control them but I can control who I let in.
Logged
mitchell16
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 829


« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2013, 08:46:50 AM »

It’s a mask, and an illusion.   They love the honeymoon glow of new relationships, but cannot sustain true emotionally healthy connections with ANYONE.

Mine said on our last contact " I wish we could go back to the way it was in the beginning" of course who doesnt? In my opiion the honeymoon phase of any relationship is the most exciting part but that gets replaced with deep love, caring and being supportive, deveolping life goals with each. Nobody can stay in the honeymoon phase of anything forever. a New relationship, a new job, new friends, a child being born, anything. everything evolves to a next level. Just my opinion.

Mine right now appears better. of course she is right she has no stress of a relationship. She not trying to be what she cant be. She wants it but cant do it. so it create internal stress on her all the time. What bothers me, instead of excepting that. She blames me and says things about me that are not true as a way of blaming. This is where I get stuck, because I blame my short cummings on myself. I was in a relationship once, when I was very young. I cheated on her. I felt terrible I told her what I did. She would have forgave, said she would. I ended the relationship I was not in love with her. I took full repsonbility it was all me. I could have told her it was her fault, that she was this or that. But that wasnt true. It was all me. and to this day me and that person are still great friends and have been for 25 years. I think it was becasue I was honest and didnt make her feel bad about herself because it didnt have anything to to do with her, it was my own insecurities that caused it.

my ex wife and me are great friends. She called yeasturday and was talking about her new boyfriend and how happy they are. I truly wished her well and I am happy for her. Why? because we both made mistake in our relationship, we owned them, we didnt drag each other thru the mud, we didnt insult each other. we just relaized we couldnt stay togther anymore. it just wasnt working. I wish her the best and I am happy for her.

my exBPD. I have nothing but hate, anger and i wish her nothing but misery at this point. She dont deserve compassion. she dont deserve respect, she dont deserve kindness. She deserves to be stepped on. Thats the way I feel right now. I know she is a sick person. But she is wealthy, highly educated and has admitted that she knows something is wrong with her but will not get help. but instead chooses to to unleash hell on society. and thats what makes me depise her.
Logged
Deleted
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 209



« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2013, 09:42:29 AM »

very good insights on here! Thank you all for replying... Just curious as to how other people thought about this

I'm at a point that I am indifferent about my exBPD. I don't wish her well but I most certainly don't wish her any harm or vindicative karma or what have you. I tried so hard at the beginning of my recovery to think why she would be automatically better with the next person and all I conjure is that in my past relationships with NONs (this was my first one and shortest relationship) 

We usually learn from our past partners and work on our flaws. I've seen almost all my ex girlfriends a lot better with their next partner but at the same time they had a sane mentality, there was closure, they had a mature mentality, and the relationship was obviously not tumultuous. I guess I applied the same logic to this relationship. 

Mitchell, I understand where you are coming from-

my exBPD. I have nothing but hate, anger and i wish her nothing but misery at this point. She dont deserve compassion. she dont deserve respect, she dont deserve kindness. She deserves to be stepped on. Thats the way I feel right now. I know she is a sick person. But she is wealthy, highly educated and has admitted that she knows something is wrong with her but will not get help. but instead chooses to to unleash hell on society. and thats what makes me depise her.

In time you will slowly let go of those feelings into a state of indifference. I see my BPDex the same way, well almost the same way, as I do my other ex girlfriends. I'm at a state of indifference, there is still some sort of "love" for them but it's a "hope you're well, but stay where you are My life is fine without you" I was once at your point. I was consumed by my hate for her but I realized this made me think about her more.

By hating her, I gave her such power over me. I took a mentally ill, immature, little girl trapped in a womans body and I gave her a Superwoman cape and special powers. She's not superwoman, she's what I described in the last sentence. By hating her, I was never going to get over her. I totally understand where you are coming from I'm not trying to be dismissive but at least for me, the day I said I took part in the relationship as well, BPD or not, she's destructive and not good for me, and I STAYED! I have fault for the way I feel. I put my ego aside and forgave her.
Logged
mitchell16
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 829


« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2013, 10:23:31 AM »

I wish I didnt feel that way and in time I hope I wont. But in my mind its like someone who is sick but wont go to the doctor and get better but expects everyone else to make special treatment for them. It dont make sense. if you dont want to get better fine, live with it but dont expect the world give you special treatment. I know its a mental disorder and its diffrent. But mine has told me she knows she is a mess, she knows " shes broke and cant be fixed" her words. Like I said she in a mental health therapist. so why not get help. If you didnt know I could understand but she knows and has said it it. She has never said BPD but told me once she had BPD traits. I guess Im still at the angy stage and I pray i do let it go.
Logged
Deleted
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 209



« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2013, 10:44:11 AM »

Mitchell, MY BPDex suffered from sexual abuse, broken home, alcoholic father, mother with NPD, horrible marriage between the two, abusive boyfriends the list goes on.

Her behavior can be directly linked to her childhood and her traumatic experience (granted it's not BPD distortion as horrible as it may sound). She is an adult, a working, intelligent adult. She is not 'crazy' in the sense that she doesn't wear a bikini when it's -10 degrees out, nor does she talk to the many voices in her mind. But she does need years and years of therapy. It's unfortuante what happened to her but I, as a human, cannot help her with that. She would need many medications and years of therapy something I cannot do. If I switch my role of boyfriend to therapist, what type of relationship would that be?

My BPDex would often cry and say I'm a mess, I can't have a relationship, these people ruined that for me, I'm damaged goods. She went to a therapist 2 times and quickly said NO THEY JUST DON'T GET ME I HATE THEM THEY ARE B*TCHES! and never went back. She knows she is messed up and needs severe help but is too scared and immature to seek it. I understand 100% your feelings and pain in your last post but we did stay regardless of their behavior and past. It's also our fault. They are chaotic and irresponsbile for not seeking help and in that sense I do blame her.

However, with all of those traumatic experiences, how can you? where would you start? she would need to stop and drop everything in her life live in a therapist office for years. When it comes to that, I don't have BPD nor do I have any crazy experience like that so I cannot feel the fear they may have for seeking help. This does not mitigate their behavior. I find their lack of seeking for help irresponsible, immature, and selfish yet maybe I just don't understand because I've never gone through such harsh things. I don't know, but I do find their response to just playing the victim card or martyr when they know they are messed up completely selfish.
Logged
snappafcw
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 295


« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2013, 10:57:12 AM »

Thanks for your insight deleted. My ex's background is very similar including the sexual abuse as a young child and my feelings are also very much like yours. Its nice to be able to relate thank you.
Logged
allweareisallweare
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 115



« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2013, 11:12:16 AM »

Oh, I don't think they're better tbh -  I don't buy the BS FB facade (which she will try to keep up long after I have blocked her I know, which I have, just to convince others - not that she's happy but that she's not mentally unwell - which is impossible because that's what she is.

I wouldn't like to be in their shoes. I know that she altered her profile picture to show herself and the new guy, I mean victim, but she looked unhappy in that... .obviously, she thinks that using this social networking 'weapon' paradigm will save her from guilt consuming them, but it won't; I knew she was sick and I don't really succumb to thinking that I could have done more or feel guilt for blocking her to lead to the whole change of events (she needed any excuse tbh her behavior warranted it) when I was corresponding with her I reiterated that I knew what pattern would ensue, and I mentioned BPD (because she told me she had been diagnosed with it, so it's no secret) but I do regret not having been on this board at that time, because I would have properly PROPERLY spelled it out to her what A) Had happened in our relationship B) Will happen in this current one but now NC has ensued on my part so ... .but surely she knows - in those lonely hours it must scare her? Again, I don't have that worry.

What we have to understand is we can look at relationships objectively - they're difficult things to maintain; the'll be a honeymoon period naturally; they'll be conflict anyway, they may miss us 'anyway' - then when we apply that subjectively (the x having BPD) we encounter something which is almost unfathomably dangerous, challenging, menacing. True, a combination we encountered, lived through, survived; but they have to do it again and again and again... .so why would I think they're happier/better? Nothing can alter my skepticism into thinking that the person I was with won't fail - they failed seemingly in every relationship prior very quickly, implied they had been used in others, left in others etc. I stuck at it much more than I believe only a small number would - it had significance, it was my first relationship etc, but I am a fighter - I have to be it's self-explanatory. Sometimes I don't know why I am fighting on.[/size]

Peace



Logged
SeekerofTruth
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 235



« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2013, 11:39:32 AM »

Excerpt
That would only apply to someone that respectfully exited the relationship.

Someone with BPD does not respectfully exit a relationship.

If you read the accounts here... .

You will notice a scary pattern of... .

Abrupt cut off... .

Switching on/off of feelings... .

Cheating... .

PwBPD usually leaving the non... .

Then returning... .

To leave yet again... .

With the same exact pattern of behavior as before.

it's like we just some object in a game of abuse.

Excerpt
i don't really trust someone who wishes an abusive ex good tidings unless it's been at least several years of NC and healing going on. IMO nons can abuse the idea of forgiveness as a way to avoid feeling true grief/anger, which in the right context is where true health and growth reside (in the earlier stages of recovery).

to me, forgiveness simply means, this person can no longer hurt me, in any way. 

Because of the trauma and damage THEY caused... .and suppossedly we let happen because we did not know how to protect ourselves and other codependent jargon.  Still don't make it right.  Taking the high road? what's the high road to them?  Another angle to pizz on you.  especially if they have comorbid NPD.

Excerpt
Yes, it is comforting thinking/knowing that it wasn't our fault, a lack of love, or a lack of attractiveness on our part. There is a schadenfreude in imagining that it's just going to keep happening to them because it means that their condition will be "its own natural punishment" for the ways it caused them to hurt us, that the best revenge is letting them self-destruct through the very same patterns they pulled with us. There is a justice to it.


There's truth in them there words.  I NEVER knew or allowed myself to harbor bitterness towards anyone (maybe my dad); till i drowned in her toxcity, manipulative abusive control, and mindfuk denial projection circularity games.

Excerpt
conundrum that befalls most of us exiting a BPD r/s.

My theories:

1) during the r/s they conditioned us to be weak, scared and miserable, so it's residual after they are gone and we assume they move on with the power we gave them

2) we tried hard to make them happy, they weren't satisfied, so it stands to "reason" that we were the problem and therefore a "better" situation for them is without us

A lot of the problem is in their communication. When these BPD r/s's end, we are given all the blame and made to feel bad. They convey this through hurtful language and tweaked logic. 

And some times the further down they drag you thru the mud and dirt is the only place left from which to pick your self up from, with tire marks on your back.  The splitting and hate is so severe and just dimissed, along with you as some disgarded object which was once a prize possession.  And to think they get off on that?  Yeah, when they have no repentance, show no remorse or ammends... .no... .that forgivenss for them gets withheld... .till we deal with what we need to deal with first.  YOu don't just forgive that no matter what pop psychology says.  There has to be a process of just how severely they messed with us.
Logged
Bananas
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 346



« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2013, 12:23:15 PM »

For me it is just a lot of second guessing as my ex is undiagnosed. 

The logical Bananas says: look at the pattern of relationships and friendships he has had his whole life, add the fact that his mother was mentally ill, how much proof do you need?

The emotional Bananas second guesses.  Maybe he is not ill and it was just me.

i don't really trust someone who wishes an abusive ex good tidings unless it's been at least several years of NC and healing going on. IMO nons can abuse the idea of forgiveness as a way to avoid feeling true grief/anger, which in the right context is where true health and growth reside (in the earlier stages of recovery).

For me, this is important.  I was taught to always be nice and forgive.  I am just getting to a point now where I am starting to feel anger because I did stuff a lot of it.  I was really in a hurry to forgive my ex, I think before I was ready. 

Maybe we should be thinking about how we were better before them.

OR, maybe we should be thinking about how much better we will be after them, even better than before them. 


Logged
Deleted
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 209



« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2013, 10:28:33 PM »

Bananas, besides seeing my non exes better with the next guy, which stung a bit at the time, I kinda always feared that maybe she isn't really BPD and maybe it was just me who caused that.

But I quickly thought about her past and issues and there is no way it was me. In addition, I kinda strayed from the solely focusing on her BPD. Bpd or not, she needs help, it was stupid of me to stay for 8 months. I think it's  more important to realize that BPD or not, they were toxic to us and in some way we were toxic to them because we triggered them even if we didn't notice or even know we were.

Snappa,

It's unfortunate we had/have to go through the same circumstances but it's beautiful to see that there Others out there who understand.


Wishing everyone lots of strength!
Logged
snappafcw
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 295


« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2013, 10:37:08 PM »

I don't think there is a problem with me wanting to forgive and have a soft hart. Thats not to say I haven't felt heaps of anger and sadness but each to their own.
Logged
Ironmanrises
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1774


« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2013, 10:43:43 PM »

Bananas, besides seeing my non exes better with the next guy, which stung a bit at the time, I kinda always feared that maybe she isn't really BPD and maybe it was just me who caused that.

But I quickly thought about her past and issues and there is no way it was me. In addition, I kinda strayed from the solely focusing on her BPD. Bpd or not, she needs help, it was stupid of me to stay for 8 months. I think it's  more important to realize that BPD or not, they were toxic to us and in some way we were toxic to them because we triggered them even if we didn't notice or even know we were.

Snappa,

It's unfortunate we had/have to go through the same circumstances but it's beautiful to see that there Others out there who understand.


Wishing everyone lots of strength!

In bold.

I respectfully disagree.

Whether our feelings for the pwBPD were misplaced or not... .

We were not toxic to them because we triggered them... .

We triggered them... .

Because they are disordered.

They are toxic to us.

Logged
Bananas
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 346



« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2013, 11:14:28 PM »

Bananas, besides seeing my non exes better with the next guy, which stung a bit at the time, I kinda always feared that maybe she isn't really BPD and maybe it was just me who caused that.

But I quickly thought about her past and issues and there is no way it was me. In addition, I kinda strayed from the solely focusing on her BPD. Bpd or not, she needs help, it was stupid of me to stay for 8 months. I think it's  more important to realize that BPD or not, they were toxic to us and in some way we were toxic to them because we triggered them even if we didn't notice or even know we were.



Wishing everyone lots of strength!

Yep you are right about this.  My ex and I were friends for about a year before we got intimate and things were fine as I wasn't a trigger.  He actually said that of his ex before me, "we were better off as friends", so now I assume he says the same about me. Now there is no going back. 
Logged
goldylamont
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1083



« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2013, 02:55:00 AM »

I don't think there is a problem with me wanting to forgive and have a soft hart. Thats not to say I haven't felt heaps of anger and sadness but each to their own.

snappafcw, didn't want to put you on the fences here. everybody is different and perhaps you are able to forgive sooner than others (although i'm unsure of your timeframe). it's good and honorable to strive for forgiveness. trust me that's my main goal now, full forgiveness. it's just that i don't work towards it, it's something i feel will occur naturally for me over time as i fully heal. my path is nothing less than complete detachment, moving on, finding someone more beautiful and total indifference to my ex. << this is forgiveness to me--my behavior and true emotions. and i'm so much closer than i was a year ago!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

so for me that's why i a bit wary when i hear so much talk of forgiveness, simply b/c i think that my definition of forgiveness is different from the status quo. and i have to accept this, i sometimes look at things different.

but perhaps that is a good question for everyone--what does forgiveness look like for you? and have you truly forgiven your BPDex by this standard?

Logged
goldylamont
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1083



« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2013, 03:40:49 AM »

hi all, i didn't want to stray too far off the original poster's topic and have been thinking about forgiveness some. it's something i really want to understand more and work towards. if interested check out this thread:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=210701.msg12321827#msg12321827

want this thread to keep going though. lots of good discussion here! 
Logged
Deleted
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 209



« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2013, 07:04:44 AM »

Ironman,

I believe that whenever they become 'close' with someone, (granted the person did not pick up on any  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) or just decided to stay regardless) this closeness, the bond between the partners triggers them. So in a way we triggered them but in a second-hand type of way. What I mean is that it could be anyone really not necessarily us, just anyone who can fill that role and bring out certain types of feelings.

However, BPD will reveal it's big ugly head with Mr. right, wrong, mr abusive, mr. mommas boy, mr. independent etc.

Goldylamont,

I agree with you Indifference to my ex- this is forgivess to me  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I also agree that it's something that will occur naturally.

I see trying to get over a BPDex like an insomniac trying to fall asleep. The harder they 'try' to fall asleep the more they cant sleep.

The more we try to forgive, or to say I'm ok after the relationship, the harder it is for us. That's just my take. It comes naturally. The same thoughts I have now, I had a year ago about my BPD, the only thing that's different is that it just comes naturally. When you start to put things into perspective, it just comes naturally.
Logged
peas
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: single
Posts: 376


« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2013, 12:33:15 PM »

Excerpt
But I quickly thought about her past and issues and there is no way it was me. In addition, I kinda strayed from the solely focusing on her BPD. Bpd or not, she needs help, it was stupid of me to stay for 8 months.

I agree. My ex was a big drinker, a functional alcoholic. Maybe it's because of BPD demons, but BPD or not, his drinking caused all the usual intimacy and personality problems. This man drank heavily before me and will most likely continue to drink heavily after me. He too needs help.
Logged
peas
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: single
Posts: 376


« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2013, 01:32:02 PM »

Excerpt
that's my main goal now, full forgiveness. it's just that i don't work towards it, it's something i feel will occur naturally for me over time as i fully heal. my path is nothing less than complete detachment, moving on, finding someone more beautiful and total indifference to my ex. << this is forgiveness to me--my behavior and true emotions. and i'm so much closer than i was a year ago!

Yes! I too believe the forgiveness is not something you force and how it looks and feels is subjective.

I have had two hard breakups in the past three years. It surprised me how much the losses set me back. I am usually quite good with r/s's and breakups.

The first b/u, with a non-BPD guy, I allowed myself to really feel all the hurt, dishonesty and anger. I chose to be angry and unforgiving -- carried a huge grudge and would tell anyone who asked. I know that goes against a lot of therapy norms. I immediately went NC and I willingly hated my ex and everything about him. It was liberating because I normally don't allow myself to indulge in such negative feelings and behavior.

A year after that b/u, the hard feelings melted away.  I was able to rebuild and see the ex and the r/s from a more rational perspective and understand why we weren't meant to be together and that I held on too long to a dying r/s. Now I am friendly with that ex. We're not close or anything, but if we have to interact, it's honest and pleasant. I have zero romantic feelings for him.

The BPD guy, that's a slightly different story because BPD guy put me through verbal and emotional abuse, which I had never experienced from a SO. I had never had a boyfriend who went out of his way to hurt me, lead me on and take so much from me like he did. I also "connected" with him much more intensely than other bf's and let him shred my boundaries. Anyway, that r/s ended 3.5 months ago (we were together seven months; he broke up with me) and I am using the same approach as the former b/u -- NC, just feeling the anger, confusion, betrayal, and yes, love and romance, and letting go when it happens organically.

The weird thing is I have more compassion for the BPD guy after the b/u than I do for the non-BPD guy after that b/u. Probably because the BPD guy demonstrated much more weakness than the non-BPD bf.

Logged
Clearmind
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 5519



« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2013, 12:06:22 AM »

Why do you think your BPDex partner will be better or 'is' better with the next person? What's the reason behind this irrational fear?

Because I blamed myself for the relationship demise. My childhood dictated that whatever I do it’s never enough and inevitably I was blamed.

We repeat childhood conditioning until we begin to recognize our faulty beliefs are product of our childhood.

Logged

peas
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: single
Posts: 376


« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2013, 09:57:16 AM »

Excerpt
Because I blamed myself for the relationship demise. My childhood dictated that whatever I do it’s never enough and inevitably I was blamed.

Clearmind, I blame myself too for the r/s demise, but I don't link it to my childhood, which appears to have been different than yours. I didn't grow up with blame. In fact, my parents were of the touchy-feely express-yourself mindset (hey, it was the 70s) and I had a lot of positive reinforcement. I was very self-directed growing up.

I still managed to get tangled up with a pwBPD and limped away plagued with all kinds of ego, guilt, blame, shame, etc. problems.

I have been trying to draw a connection from my past to the BPD r/s. One of the things I am looking at are there were so few boundaries in my childhood that maybe that contributed to me putting up with the uBPDexbf. But I think it's less what I am bringing from my childhood and more where I am in life now. I have hit a rough spot where my main priority is to be partnered with someone, I want to settle down and have security. He exposed that major desire, which I had been denying, and I was determined to satisfy it. I had a template in my head of how I want my life and he came along and offered to realize it (in words, but not actions) -- finally marriage, kids and a house. I was hooked. 
Logged
Escaped 30.Sept.2013
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 146


« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2013, 10:42:11 AM »

Why are they better after us?

Well the short answer is, they aren’t.

[... .]

I think a lot of our confusion and us thinking they are better stems from our own insecurities. 

Yes.

Through therapy, I've learnt that severe emotional abuse in my childhood from my now-dead sister convinced me that everyone in the whole world would prefer to be with someone else than me. Anyone else than me, but ideally everyone in the whole wide world would really prefer to be with my sister. Relatives, friends, boyfriends - everyone. They all would prefer to be in the company of anyone other than me.

So to have what felt like the only man who ever loved me, move on to my replacement... .that hurt badly.

But it is very little to do with my ex moving on, and very little to do with what the new victim is like - it's to do with my fear of everyone "preferring" someone else to me.
Logged
Clearmind
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 5519



« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2013, 03:33:25 PM »

Excerpt
Because I blamed myself for the relationship demise. My childhood dictated that whatever I do it’s never enough and inevitably I was blamed.

Clearmind, I blame myself too for the r/s demise, but I don't link it to my childhood, which appears to have been different than yours. I didn't grow up with blame. In fact, my parents were of the touchy-feely express-yourself mindset (hey, it was the 70s) and I had a lot of positive reinforcement. I was very self-directed growing up.

I still managed to get tangled up with a pwBPD and limped away plagued with all kinds of ego, guilt, blame, shame, etc. problems.

I have been trying to draw a connection from my past to the BPD r/s. One of the things I am looking at are there were so few boundaries in my childhood that maybe that contributed to me putting up with the uBPDexbf. But I think it's less what I am bringing from my childhood and more where I am in life now. I have hit a rough spot where my main priority is to be partnered with someone, I want to settle down and have security. He exposed that major desire, which I had been denying, and I was determined to satisfy it. I had a template in my head of how I want my life and he came along and offered to realize it (in words, but not actions) -- finally marriage, kids and a house. I was hooked. 

Good connection peas!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  And yes you are so right - sometimes when kids have no boundaries we allow others to dictate them when we are adults. Our parents did their best - we need to carry the load now and decide what we want to keep (as part of our childhood conditioning) and what we want to replace with our own boundaries, beliefs, moral code.

Reading up on boundaries would be really helpful for you peas: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=59097.0
Logged

eeyore
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: in a relationship
Posts: 5927



« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2013, 06:14:37 PM »

Our parents did their best - we need to carry the load now and decide what we want to keep (as part of our childhood conditioning) and what we want to replace with our own boundaries, beliefs, moral code.

We frequently discuss understanding our Family of Origin (FOO) issues.  While I find it helpful to look at the past, I think we sometimes get stuck in analysis paralasis.  At some point in time shouldn't we attract, find, maintain healthy relationships once we understand our FOO issues? Why are there so many single people (men and women) that don't seem to get there?  (Me included as I consider myself and older wiser person.)  I keep thinking what's the deal?
Logged
myself
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3151


« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2013, 06:32:39 PM »

It seems, from my life and this site, that most of them are not better afterwards because they do not do the work to better themselves. Change comes from within. Going by what's on the surface can be very deceptive, especially when that's all you have to go on. More cycles of using and being used does not a pretty picture make.
Logged
peas
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: single
Posts: 376


« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2013, 06:44:55 PM »

One of my good friends helped shake me back to reality once when I was lamenting on the phone one night, a Saturday night, that I am so lonely and worse off after the b/u and my ex was probably having a great night with one of the many women he said wanted to sleep with him. 

And my friend firmly responded, "No, he's probably drunk."

My ex is an alcoholic. I felt so much better when she reminded me.
Logged
musicfan42
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 509


« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2013, 08:30:28 PM »

We frequently discuss understanding our Family of Origin (FOO) issues.  While I find it helpful to look at the past, I think we sometimes get stuck in analysis paralasis.  At some point in time shouldn't we attract, find, maintain healthy relationships once we understand our FOO issues? Why are there so many single people (men and women) that don't seem to get there?  (Me included as I consider myself and older wiser person.)  I keep thinking what's the deal?

I think that being aware of Family of Origin (FOO) issues is only step 1-it's only awareness of the problem but then the problem remains there to be solved. Step 2 is definitely about problem solving-writing down an inventory to figure out what self-sabotaging behaviors one may do in relationships. For me, I rushed into relationships, didn't really think before I spoke/acted... was basically very impulsive. I had to stop and take relationships slower. I also had to learn assertiveness skills too. I'm not saying that I've gotten it totally figured out because who has but I think that I've made progress.

I also realized that I was attracted to people's "potential"-who they could be in the future as opposed to who they actually were in the here-and-now. I had to get real and say to myself that potential means nothing-that we all have the potential to be astronauts etc but that most of us are not going to do it. I realized that unless I see someone taking decisive action in their life, then all the flowery words in the world mean nothing. So basically actions > words.
Logged
alliance
**
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 72



« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2013, 08:30:45 PM »

My ex was not diagnosed but so much of what I experienced I see in the posts here, some almost verbatim, which still freaks me out.

I know the r/s ripped the scabs off childhood messages of not being good enough for a multitude of reasons. My ex had an uncanny way of saying very hurtful things with a big smile on her face. I still don't know if she just had a bizarre sense of humor or if she was just being nasty.

It really undermined my self confidence, made me feel very inadequate, and very confused as to what was really happening and what was real.

As much as I know about this disorder and how it plays out, it still hurts to see her involved with someone new. It smarts even more to see this new person say "they have incredible sexual and non sexual energy and just feel like they fit together."

It just rips open what had been healing for many months.
Logged
Ironmanrises
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1774


« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2013, 09:01:44 PM »

My ex was not diagnosed but so much of what I experienced I see in the posts here, some almost verbatim, which still freaks me out.

I know the r/s ripped the scabs off childhood messages of not being good enough for a multitude of reasons. My ex had an uncanny way of saying very hurtful things with a big smile on her face. I still don't know if she just had a bizarre sense of humor or if she was just being nasty.

It really undermined my self confidence, made me feel very inadequate, and very confused as to what was really happening and what was real.


As much as I know about this disorder and how it plays out, it still hurts to see her involved with someone new. It smarts even more to see this new person say "they have incredible sexual and non sexual energy and just feel like they fit together."

It just rips open what had been healing for many months.

I am sorry you experienced that.

In bold.

It was the same for me too.

And for practically... .

Everyone else on here too.

That is BPD.

Hell on earth.

Logged
peas
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: single
Posts: 376


« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2013, 11:11:40 PM »

Musicfan, this is insightful:

Excerpt
I think that being aware of Family of Origin (FOO) issues is only step 1-it's only awareness of the problem but then the problem remains there to be solved. Step 2 is definitely about problem solving-writing down an inventory to figure out what self-sabotaging behaviors one may do in relationships. For me, I rushed into relationships, didn't really think before I spoke/acted... was basically very impulsive. I had to stop and take relationships slower. I also had to learn assertiveness skills too. I'm not saying that I've gotten it totally figured out because who has but I think that I've made progress.

I also realized that I was attracted to people's "potential"-who they could be in the future as opposed to who they actually were in the here-and-now. I had to get real and say to myself that potential means nothing-that we all have the potential to be astronauts etc but that most of us are not going to do it. I realized that unless I see someone taking decisive action in their life, then all the flowery words in the world mean nothing. So basically actions > words.

On the first part, I, too am impulsive and usually rushed into relationships and settled quickly. As a result I wasted years with the wrong person in past r/s's. I also need to better develop assertiveness.

And I agree with your thoughts on being attracted to people with potential and how that just feeds illusions. I had not really identified that and you have given me something to think about as I am the same way. I never thought of myself as a fixer or rescuer type in r/s's, but I am drawn to identifying and helping develop a mate's potential, a behavior I now see is related to the rescuer role. You are right, potential means nothing. The truth is in decisive action.
Logged
Emelie Emelie
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 665


« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2013, 11:49:48 PM »

I think they might appear to be "better" at first.  Right after our break up I was a mess and he was all good.  Because their issues  manifest in relationships I think there's probably some relief for them when the rs is over.  But their issues don't go away and long term, or in the next relationship, they're not "better"  They're dealing with the same s@it.
Logged
eeyore
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: in a relationship
Posts: 5927



« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2013, 12:08:16 AM »

I realized that unless I see someone taking decisive action in their life, then all the flowery words in the world mean nothing. So basically actions > words.

I'd like some examples of actions.  I'm not sure that it requires taking things slower for me.  I suspect it means kicking people to the curb as soon as I know something's not quite right.  That's what's always been difficult for me.  Because I feel like I can make it work if I try more.  And the trying more results in me being a doormat.  I need to try less--Very Counter intuitive.  Setting boundaries also felt counter intuitive.  I can say I am so much better at it now.  In all areas of my life. 
Logged
musicfan42
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 509


« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2013, 03:09:47 AM »

I realized that unless I see someone taking decisive action in their life, then all the flowery words in the world mean nothing. So basically actions > words.

I'd like some examples of actions.  I'm not sure that it requires taking things slower for me.  I suspect it means kicking people to the curb as soon as I know something's not quite right.  That's what's always been difficult for me.  Because I feel like I can make it work if I try more.  And the trying more results in me being a doormat.  I need to try less--Very Counter intuitive.  Setting boundaries also felt counter intuitive.  I can say I am so much better at it now.  In all areas of my life. 

Ok well here are examples:

-a guy says that you're his "soul mate", that he loves you... they're the words. (take them with a heavy pinch of salt!)

The actions would be treating you well, showing that he loves you through validating you, comforting you when you're upset, accepting you as you are, not trying to change you, supporting you, encouraging you etc.

If someone is hyper-critical, then that's not love-that's control. If someone doesn't want you to have friends/family around you, that's control. And if someone is jealous, that's control. It's irritating because it demonstrates a real lack of trust-that they don't trust you to be faithful even though you've done nothing wrong.

-a cheater says "oh it'll never happen again", "it meant nothing", "she was all over me/threw herself on me", "I only love you"-they're the words.

The actions would be NOT to cheat in the first place and then they wouldn't have to make up these pathetic excuses. Cheating is just unacceptable, end of. It's an example of emotional abuse-it's so disrespectful and hurtful to the other person.

-your SO (significant other) might complain about how he hates his job and is going to apply for a new one (they're the words).

The actions would be to actually send CVs out, go on interviews etc. If he doesn't do these things, then he's not really serious about getting a new job

-your SO (significant other) might complain about their weight and vows to go on a diet. (they're the words)

-the actions would be to eat healthy and exercise more.

There's a thing I came across called "the 50% rule"-that you're only responsible for 50% of the relationships... your own actions. You're not responsible for someone else's actions.

I used to try too hard to make relationships work out but honestly, they're not meant to be that hard... you're either compatible with someone or you're not... that's it. If you feel that you're walking on eggshells with someone, then it's just not a healthy relationship. I want to be with someone that I can feel to express my thoughts/feelings/opinions without being chastised or told that I'm "wrong". I want to have the freedom to make my own decisions in my life without being told what I "should" be doing. I feel that men have told me in the past that I'm "too feisty" and honestly, they were the wrong men for me. I just think now "like me or lump me-this is who I am and that's it". I feel like there's some men who just want to shut me up-that I'm too talkative for their liking, too loud, too whatever. I used to take this criticism to heart but now I think "why should I? Maybe they should talk more, be more emotionally expressive and give me what I want... it's not all about them and their needs... I have needs too".
Logged
LivingLearning
**
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 93


« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2013, 08:20:29 AM »

Oh my goodness what a great question!

For me, I wonder if it's because I still can idealize sometimes the good parts of my ex, so I imagine that version of her with a new guy, and forget the rough stuff ( I try not to think in terms of good and bad, yet I do sometimes, so I might as well be honest ).

I think it's also something else thats very powerful - it's that feeling that much of it could be me. This may not make sense but I remember she would say things to me after she'd have an anger outburst like "When you're angry at me I have a hard time not thinking its me, so I overreact".

So its a similar thing for both her and I.

The funny twist is, when I'd hear her say this I found it tough because I felt the way I would express my feelings was usually pretty constructive and not abusive. Not venting. So she'd be apologizing for how she received it, but what was so frustrating to me was that she wouldn't say "hmmmm... .let me think about what you feel angry/sad/afraid about and take a look at my role in whats happened."

Another reason I think they might be better, is wondering if I actually was too jealous. It's taken me so much work to recognize that maybe all the stuff I observed and interactions she had with men were some form of betrayals. And yet I can still be unsure that maybe I was just being "TOO SENSITIVE, TOO INSECURE, ALL Fhit_ED UP, DAMAGED" Sometimes she'd say stuff like that. And maybe the reason it was so hard is, part of me is, but just not as much as she'd say. SO then I fear she'd meet someone who isn't. And thats where I guess I can eventually just wish other people happiness and work on me. But I'm still in the waves of emotion lately, even though she broke up with me so many times, I am doing better than before. And I had a part in ending it this time.

Logged
Deleted
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 209



« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2013, 10:05:10 AM »

very interesting posts!

If I may add, during the honeymoon phase, she would do and tell me things she 'has never told any other guy before' so when we broke up and I heard down the grapevine about how "amazing she is and this guy is great" it made me feel that maybe I'm not unique to her feelings. Maybe this guy will get an even better emotional response from her. Now I realize that this is just nonsense, it's just hooks to line us in, they are very smart when it comes to reeling us in.

MY BPDex also had very cruel snide remarks that she would mask under a smile or just bhity passive aggressive marks that stabbed me.

I'm not sure if it was some sort of inadequacy from childhood, unloving mom/dad because my parents were too loving and too forgiving of my actions. Perhaps that's where I picked up that forgiving behavior. Whenever a family member (as messed up as they might have been to us) needed help my parents would "do the right thing" instead of saying f**k off. No one really helped us out we were by ourselves but we always helped out others. I applied that I saw into this. I forgave, and forgave 50% could be from my childhood 50% because she was a victim of sexual abuse.

Either way, at this point, I highly doubt they are ok with the next person. I don't really thin about it too much and if so, great just get the hell away from me and don't advertise your happiness near me.
Logged
musicfan42
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 509


« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2013, 12:50:09 PM »

Deleted-your last post was so insightful!

If I may add, during the honeymoon phase, she would do and tell me things she 'has never told any other guy before' so when we broke up and I heard down the grapevine about how "amazing she is and this guy is great" it made me feel that maybe I'm not unique to her feelings. Maybe this guy will get an even better emotional response from her. Now I realize that this is just nonsense, it's just hooks to line us in, they are very smart when it comes to reeling us in.

Damn-I hadn't figured this out. I've had a few boyfriends and friends tell me "oh I never tell anyone this" and I believed them whereas now I'm wondering whether this is just a load of crap... Hmm, not a nice feeling at all.

MY BPDex also had very cruel snide remarks that she would mask under a smile or just bhity passive aggressive marks that stabbed me.

I've had female friends do this to me in the past... .hmm...

I'm not sure if it was some sort of inadequacy from childhood, unloving mom/dad because my parents were too loving and too forgiving of my actions. Perhaps that's where I picked up that forgiving behavior. Whenever a family member (as messed up as they might have been to us) needed help my parents would "do the right thing" instead of saying f**k off. No one really helped us out we were by ourselves but we always helped out others. I applied that I saw into this. I forgave, and forgave 50% could be from my childhood 50% because she was a victim of sexual abuse.

My mother was very loving and almost too forgiving of my actions. I don't want to go into it here but yeah, I think I picked it up off her... I was very drawn to other people who were worse off than me... You mention that your ex was a victim of sexual abuse. So was my BPD ex. I was drawn to this-I felt so sorry for him. I wanted him to give him the love he had never been given. I felt that he was great for being so willing to be emotionally sensitive-for being open about his emotions when so many men are emotionally repressed in society. My father was extremely emotionally repressed so there is a part of me that wants a man who has good communication skills. There is an emotional longing within me for that because I didn't have it growing up so I think that my BPD ex unconsciously tapped into that. Maybe a girl who had a good father wouldn't have been drawn to my BPD ex? Because a girl with a good father would have had a good paternal role model growing up and a good image of men whereas I had a very poor male role model growing up. I just thought that all men were horrible and out to hurt me really.

Either way, at this point, I highly doubt they are ok with the next person. I don't really thin about it too much and if so, great just get the hell away from me and don't advertise your happiness near me.

Urgh-that's exactly how I feel... "don't advertise your happiness near me". Deep down, I don't want him to be happy. I want him to be miserable-to say "oh why did I mess musicfan42 around? She was the best that ever happened to me... I made such a mistake". I don't want him to succeed. When someone hurts me, I do kind of want something bad to happen to them-not life threatening or anything like that but definitely to be miserable, alone, not doing well in their life. I want them to be the loser basically. I want to look like the winner-the person who is doing better in their life. I've never realized that I have these feelings of hatred within me... well not to this extent. I used to say "oh I wish everyone well" but thinking about it now... I really don't. I pretty much want them to be socially humiliated in some manner... that about summarizes it.

I actually feel pretty okay about this-before I was very forgiving... too forgiving whereas I think that it was actually masking my true emotions of anger and hatred. I'd try to forgive people and wouldn't succeed and then blame myself for not being able to forgive them...  Whereas now, I think "why should I forgive someone that does something unforgivable?" I think the onus is on them to make amends as opposed to on me... I don't feel a duty any longer to forgive people. I just don't think it's a fair thing to ask of me... or of anyone really... it's too much to ask.

Peas: I also notice that I'm a born romantic and I think that's been a bit problematic for me in relationships. I love Disney cartoons on fairy-tales and "Beauty and the Beast" is my favorite. I saw myself as Belle... I loved reading (still do) and I wasn't happy in my small town either... felt like an outsider/more cultured than the other people. So I could relate to how Belle perceived the Beast to be just "misunderstood" as opposed to "a monster" (the townspeople called him a monster in the film!) And then at the end of the film, the Beast turns into a really hot guy who also happens to be kind and loving... the full package really. In the film, there's scenes on how Belle teaches the Beast table manners instead of slobbering his food all over the place in an animal like manner. I know it's only a film but oh my god, it really spoke to me because I was there, busy fixing people... thinking that I could reform someone and mold them into what I wanted them to be. Belle was also fiercely loyal to anyone she loved in the film-first of all, it was her father, then she became loyal to the beast and defended him against the townspeople. I'm so like that too-if someone criticizes someone I love, I automatically get overprotective and think "leave my poor __ (insert name) alone!" Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

I'm thinking about that film now and realizing that you could say "the Beast" could be a metaphor for a horrible guy-that Belle is this innocent, sheltered girl living with her dad and she's basically clueless about what life is really like. And then Belle meets this charming guy who has a big mansion of a place and she thinks "wow isn't this cool?" without realizing that there's strings attached to it... .that the guy wants to keep her in the castle and is just using her to break his stupid spell... that it's not about her at all but rather his own ulterior motives!
Logged
Escaped 30.Sept.2013
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 146


« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2013, 01:06:15 PM »

Urgh-that's exactly how I feel... "don't advertise your happiness near me". Deep down, I don't want him to be happy. I want him to be miserable-to say "oh why did I mess musicfan42 around? She was the best that ever happened to me... I made such a mistake". I don't want him to succeed. When someone hurts me, I do kind of want something bad to happen to them-not life threatening or anything like that but definitely to be miserable, alone, not doing well in their life. I want them to be the loser basically. I want to look like the winner-the person who is doing better in their life. I've never realized that I have these feelings of hatred within me... well not to this extent. I used to say "oh I wish everyone well" but thinking about it now... I really don't. I pretty much want them to be socially humiliated in some manner... that about summarizes it.

I mostly feel the same. I don't think I'd call it hatred, but I definitely am aware that I want to feel like "I'm the winner... .you're the loser" - like IronManFalls' signature "Congratulations... .you lost me" but a bit more so.

I really want his new relationship to fail, asap. I had to block all her internet stuff too, because I kept stalking her as well as him.

The thing is - the timing of mine... .my therapist was gently but steadily coaching me to be more independent of him, to break my side of the codependency, and each step of his progress with my replacement happened in direct response to my being more independent.

The first real break from me came because for two weeks he'd been hinting gently at a future together, and I kept saying, "yes - as friends, not lovers. We still love each other, but can't be together, so I shall adjust and accept that you'll see other women, go off for odd weekends here and there".

He kept saying I'd misunderstood, I'd got it wrong, that he loves me, that he isn't in a relationship with anyone, not with Replacement he'd spent the weekend in June with, not with anyone. All he was doing in his evenings was tinkering with his laptop's problems and talking to me. He wasn't seeing anyone, he wasn't dating anyone, there was nobody else but me, and he loves me.

I kept saying, "but there will be, sooner or later, so I'm just preparing myself for that time" and he was getting mroe and more frantic, trying to get me to accept that there was no-one, there was only me, there would only ever be me.

Then I commented on the FB Wall of one of his friends (he never liked me talking to men), nothing incriminating, just jokey - and my BPD went ballistic and told me he was going to be away certain dates. I said, "ok, have a nice weekend then" and he said it was a week, so I said, "ok have a nice week then" and at that point he started dropping HUGE hints about how he'd be abroad, and wouldn't be able to check I was ok, and he'd be so worried. I pointed out that all of Europe has mobile phone coverage but anyway I'd be fine, and then he said, "well, take a guess, Escaped, why the bleep do you think I won't be able to contact you? Who do you think it is I'm going to stay with?"

so I defriended and blocked him.

We limped on til Sept 30th, with him still sending messages (I never replied after Sept 1st when I emailed saying I would not be replying to anything he sent as I felt our communication was not healthy for either of us) - but he was still sending "I love you... .our relationship is (present tense) so important to me, I've never stopped loving you" and making disparaging comments about "other people" finding him exciting, whatever, but it's only me who truly knows him.

then I contacted her direct and found that she's thought they were in a relationship. I sent him an angry email telling him I will not permit him to continue actively trying to destroy me and he would never hear from me again. Multiple angry messages from him, so I blocked all those sources.

That night he changed his FB status  to "in a relationship" - although not with whom, and she didn't change hers.

So... .I think he has actually gone into his new relationship partly to spite me and upset me.

He's already controlling and manipulating her - the day he came back from the week with her in Sept he defriended her, then refriended her later that day - and her reply to me last Monday was couched in his words, plus she blocked me on Wed, not Monday, after I had done nothing, so I'm guessing that was his instigation also.

But... .well... .there are other things too - it just seems that every stage of his progress with her is a reaction to my increasing independence, my 'rejection' of his love.

Dunno. Nobody can know... .

But I will be really happy when it ends. A friend is keeping an eye on it for me, and has agreed to tell me nothing at all except when it ends... .it will all be over by Christmas, as the saying goes, I reckon... .if he's defriending already as well as dictating her behaviour... .it's the push-pull-push-pull dance, isn't it?
Logged
eyvindr
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: NC
Posts: 900



« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2013, 01:33:55 PM »

Geez, as compassionate as I genuinely aspire to be, I read stories like this, and see and feel the similarities to my own, and can't help but have moments when all I feel is jeezus, these people are all effing psychos.

All completely needless, unnecessary drama. No more, no less. Self-destructive, other-destructive, unproductive, hateful, hurtful DRAMA.

No. Reason. For. It.

No. Idea. Why.

I get that their brains just don't work right -- but, jeezus! -- how can such over-the-top, blatantly erratic, volatile and arguably insane behavior NOT be noticed by the person doing it? How can it be habitually UNaddressed?

Sheesh!

Starting to consider creating an underground vigilante group of BPD Cops. We will keep watch and round these people up. Once captured, they will be incarcerated in a high-security DBT compound. They will have visitation privileges, strictly controlled by veteran therapists who must be highly experienced in dealing with BPD. They will have no opportunity for parole -- their only way to get out will be to Take the Cure.

Who's in?
Logged

"Being deceived in effect takes away your right to make accurate life choices based on truth." -- waverider

"Don't try the impossible, as you're sure to become well and truly stuck and require recovery." -- Vintage Land Rover 4X4 driving instructional video
Ironmanrises
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1774


« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2013, 01:47:06 PM »

Geez, as compassionate as I genuinely aspire to be, I read stories like this, and see and feel the similarities to my own, and can't help but have moments when all I feel is jeezus, these people are all effing psychos.

All completely needless, unnecessary drama. No more, no less. Self-destructive, other-destructive, unproductive, hateful, hurtful DRAMA.

No. Reason. For. It.

No. Idea. Why.

I get that their brains just don't work right -- but, jeezus! -- how can such over-the-top, blatantly erratic, volatile and arguably insane behavior NOT be noticed by the person doing it? How can it be habitually UNaddressed?

Sheesh!

Starting to consider creating an underground vigilante group of BPD Cops. We will keep watch and round these people up. Once captured, they will be incarcerated in a high-security DBT compound. They will have visitation privileges, strictly controlled by veteran therapists who must be highly experienced in dealing with BPD. They will have no opportunity for parole -- their only way to get out will be to Take the Cure.

Who's in?

Me.

Powering up my Ironman suit.

Most systems on it are still offline/damaged.

But i will help you detect them.

Their presence amongst nons... .

Is catastrophic.

Logged
Escaped 30.Sept.2013
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 146


« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2013, 01:54:40 PM »

Oh mine knows something's wrong with him... .

From the start, he's had very occasional moments when he's felt really low, described himself as feeling empty and like he isn't there, and in those times he's said things like "I'm no good for you - I would always end up hurting you" - I ask why, he says, "I don't know! I don't know! It's just... .how i am... ."

"I wish I wasn't like this... .I'm so, so sorry. I wish I didn't do stupid stuff and hurt people"

"You deserve better - you need someone more stable, less erratic, less stupid and immature and arrogant and stupid - you need someone less me... ."

And as for never apologising... .after what at the time seemed a weekend-fling, he apologised, I later reckoned up, 45 times in 56 days on FB messaging, plus others by phone and email. And not just "I'm sorry" but real "I am truly sorry that I have hurt you so badly at a time when you have enough pain to deal with" (bereavement in my family). "You need love right now, and I wish I could give you that, but it's all twisted up now for you, because of my stupidity".

There's enough self-awareness there that he knows he is toxic, he knows he always ends up hurting people he cares about - but he can't think why it happens, why he does this.

I would just think he was an insecure guy with commitment problems, who had a load of stress in midwinter... .except that he fits 7 of the 9 diagnostic criteria listed elsewhere here for BPD; he was previously successfully treated for dysthymia, but considered it 'cured' seemingly unaware it re-emerges under stress and can evolve into cyclothymia, a form of bipolar disorder... .

... .and above all, because the mirroring was textbook... .the push-pull dance was textbook... .and those seem to be present in every single story I've read in here in the last few weeks.

"I found my soulmate... .he distanced himself, then we were closer than ever, but then he pushed me away again... .it was so perfect, then I could do nothing right and I didn't understand why... .then he came back and it was wonderful... .then he stopped replying to messages... .then he came back and said he loves me... .then he wouldn't answer my calls... ." etc., etc.

Mirroring and push-pull dance. Textbook.


But yeah, mine knows something's up.


My current fave line from him... .

"I'm... .not like other people... ."

TOO DAMN RIGHT YOU'RE NOT!

It isn't his fault. He is damaged. His childhood was hell, with some head trauma in early childhood too. (I met his mum, this is from her).

I love him still - I suspect I always will love him. But the only way I ever get into dialogue with him ever again is when his specialising-in-Cluster-B therapist asks me to attend sessions for discussion of his behaviour in our relationship as part of his assessment and ongoing treatment.

Since he isn't seeing any therapist and angrily claimed "I don't need advice from you!" when I suggested he should talk to someone further about dysthymia/ cyclothymia, I don't see that happening. Not til he's destroyed some more women's lives and sanity.

But I'm never entering dialogue with him directly again without that.
Logged
Escaped 30.Sept.2013
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 146


« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2013, 01:58:33 PM »

Me.

Powering up my Ironman suit.

Most systems on it are still offline/damaged.

But i will help you detect them.

Their presence amongst nons... .

Is catastrophic.

Oh God, this is going to really help me, you know that? This is exactly how my ex-bf used to talk, that he was IM and would always help me, always save me... .after I sent the Sept 1st email saying I would no longer reply, he sent messages saying, "Jesus, please just tell me you're alive. Tell me you're ok. Otherwise I'll have to power up the suit and fly up to save you"!

It was so... .special... .it was just between the two of us... .please, please keep powering up YOUR Iron Man suit, because it really is gonna help me to recognise that there are other guys in the world who can play at being Stark without genuinely believing they can behave like he does at the start of the tirlogy! Smiling (click to insert in post)

My last angry email to him before blocking as much as I could: included the line "you're stuck in the first half-hour of the first film, you immature idiot".

Can't think why he got so angry... .
Logged
Ironmanrises
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1774


« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2013, 02:05:00 PM »

Oh mine knows something's wrong with him... .

From the start, he's had very occasional moments when he's felt really low, described himself as feeling empty and like he isn't there, and in those times he's said things like "I'm no good for you - I would always end up hurting you" - I ask why, he says, "I don't know! I don't know! It's just... .how i am... ."

"I wish I wasn't like this... .I'm so, so sorry. I wish I didn't do stupid stuff and hurt people"

"You deserve better - you need someone more stable, less erratic, less stupid and immature and arrogant and stupid - you need someone less me... ."


And as for never apologising... .after what at the time seemed a weekend-fling, he apologised, I later reckoned up, 45 times in 56 days on FB messaging, plus others by phone and email. And not just "I'm sorry" but real "I am truly sorry that I have hurt you so badly at a time when you have enough pain to deal with" (bereavement in my family). "You need love right now, and I wish I could give you that, but it's all twisted up now for you, because of my stupidity".

There's enough self-awareness there that he knows he is toxic, he knows he always ends up hurting people he cares about - but he can't think why it happens, why he does this.

I would just think he was an insecure guy with commitment problems, who had a load of stress in midwinter... .except that he fits 7 of the 9 diagnostic criteria listed elsewhere here for BPD; he was previously successfully treated for dysthymia, but considered it 'cured' seemingly unaware it re-emerges under stress and can evolve into cyclothymia, a form of bipolar disorder... .

... .and above all, because the mirroring was textbook... .the push-pull dance was textbook... .and those seem to be present in every single story I've read in here in the last few weeks.

"I found my soulmate... .he distanced himself, then we were closer than ever, but then he pushed me away again... .it was so perfect, then I could do nothing right and I didn't understand why... .then he came back and it was wonderful... .then he stopped replying to messages... .then he came back and said he loves me... .then he wouldn't answer my calls... ." etc., etc.

Mirroring and push-pull dance. Textbook.


But yeah, mine knows something's up.


My current fave line from him... .

"I'm... .not like other people... ."

TOO DAMN RIGHT YOU'RE NOT!

It isn't his fault. He is damaged. His childhood was hell, with some head trauma in early childhood too. (I met his mum, this is from her).

I love him still - I suspect I always will love him. But the only way I ever get into dialogue with him ever again is when his specialising-in-Cluster-B therapist asks me to attend sessions for discussion of his behaviour in our relationship as part of his assessment and ongoing treatment.

Since he isn't seeing any therapist and angrily claimed "I don't need advice from you!" when I suggested he should talk to someone further about dysthymia/ cyclothymia, I don't see that happening. Not til he's destroyed some more women's lives and sanity.

But I'm never entering dialogue with him directly again without that.

In bold.

Scary how similar... .

Mine said similar things too.

In bold/underlined.

Mine said... .

In her rare lucid moments... .

When she came back to me... .

Shortly afterwards... .

The same exact thing.

She knew.

That pains me.

Made no difference.

She left regardless.
Logged
DragoN
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 996


« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2013, 02:11:03 PM »

Excerpt
I also notice that I'm a born romantic and I think that's been a bit problematic for me in relationships. I love Disney cartoons on fairy-tales and "Beauty and the Beast" is my favorite. I saw myself as Belle... I loved reading (still do) and I wasn't happy in my small town either... felt like an outsider/more cultured than the other people. So I could relate to how Belle perceived the Beast to be just "misunderstood" as opposed to "a monster" (the townspeople called him a monster in the film!) And then at the end of the film, the Beast turns into a really hot guy who also happens to be kind and loving... the full package really. In the film, there's scenes on how Belle teaches the Beast table manners instead of slobbering his food all over the place in an animal like manner. I know it's only a film but oh my god, it really spoke to me because I was there, busy fixing people... thinking that I could reform someone and mold them into what I wanted them to be. Belle was also fiercely loyal to anyone she loved in the film-first of all, it was her father, then she became loyal to the beast and defended him against the townspeople. I'm so like that too-if someone criticizes someone I love, I automatically get overprotective and think "leave my poor __ (insert name) alone!" Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

I'm thinking about that film now and realizing that you could say "the Beast" could be a metaphor for a horrible guy-that Belle is this innocent, sheltered girl living with her dad and she's basically clueless about what life is really like. And then Belle meets this charming guy who has a big mansion of a place and she thinks "wow isn't this cool?" without realizing that there's strings attached to it... .that the guy wants to keep her in the castle and is just using her to break his stupid spell... that it's not about her at all but rather his own ulterior motives!

The monster was misunderstood and in the beginning, I didn't help matters not knowing about BPD. They never forget a single error of yours, while theirs are forgotten 5 minutes later. They will verbally beat you with it till the ends of the earth.
Logged
Ironmanrises
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1774


« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2013, 02:18:07 PM »

Me.

Powering up my Ironman suit.

Most systems on it are still offline/damaged.

But i will help you detect them.

Their presence amongst nons... .

Is catastrophic.

Oh God, this is going to really help me, you know that? This is exactly how my ex-bf used to talk, that he was IM and would always help me, always save me... .after I sent the Sept 1st email saying I would no longer reply, he sent messages saying, "Jesus, please just tell me you're alive. Tell me you're ok. Otherwise I'll have to power up the suit and fly up to save you"!

It was so... .special... .it was just between the two of us... .please, please keep powering up YOUR Iron Man suit, because it really is gonna help me to recognise that there are other guys in the world who can play at being Stark without genuinely believing they can behave like he does at the start of the tirlogy! Smiling (click to insert in post)

My last angry email to him before blocking as much as I could: included the line "you're stuck in the first half-hour of the first film, you immature idiot".

Can't think why he got so angry... .

I am sorry your ex... .

Portrayed himself as Ironman... .

A superhero... .

But his portrayal of this... .

Was a projection... .

Of what he wanted you to believe... .

Because his awareness... .

Of his disorder... .

Would reveal... .

That he is the villain... .

And the disorder... .

Will not allow that reflection... .

To be shown.

I am the non version of Ironman... .

Even been told i look like the actor who plays him(Robert Downey Jr)  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)  Smiling (click to insert in post)

My Ironman suit... .

Is how i envision my boundaries... .

To protect me.

It hasnt done a good job... .

Now i am fully aware of that.
Logged
eyvindr
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: NC
Posts: 900



« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2013, 02:20:46 PM »

Escaped --

Just started reading some of posts last night -- I'm glad you found bpdfamily, and more glad that you're sharing with us your experiences and insights.

Two things --

1. Your posts include some of the most insightful observations and inflections I've read here -- thank you and welcome, again. (I loved the stuff about addiction and levels of brain chems -- good stuff.)

2. Your ex must be my ex's male alter ego. Or they took the same class. Truly eerie. This, for example --

Oh mine knows something's wrong with him... .

From the start, he's had very occasional moments when he's felt really low, described himself as feeling empty and like he isn't there, and in those times he's said things like "I'm no good for you - I would always end up hurting you" - I ask why, he says, "I don't know! I don't know! It's just... .how i am... ."

"I wish I wasn't like this... .I'm so, so sorry. I wish I didn't do stupid stuff and hurt people"

"You deserve better - you need someone more stable, less erratic, less stupid and immature and arrogant and stupid - you need someone less me... ."

My ex, like clockwork, following peak periods of dysregulation, after we made up, would say things like "How do you keep forgiving me?", "What if you leave me?" (me: why?) "Because I always mess everything up." (me: just don't mess everything up, then), "I'd understand if you wanted to leave me -- you didn't sign up for all this."

There's enough self-awareness there that he knows he is toxic, he knows he always ends up hurting people he cares about - but he can't think why it happens, why he does this.

I would just think he was an insecure guy with commitment problems, who had a load of stress in midwinter... .except that he fits 7 of the 9 diagnostic criteria listed elsewhere here for BPD; he was previously successfully treated for dysthymia, but considered it 'cured' seemingly unaware it re-emerges under stress and can evolve into cyclothymia, a form of bipolar disorder... .

I may not be able to stop myself from PMing you a copy of an apology she sent me during this last break-up, while she was still in the say-anything-to-prevent-abandonment phase. (She's now in full-on painting-me-bad mode.) You will swear your ex wrote it to me. In it, she methodiclaly apologizes for EVERYTHING I tried to get her to accept were things that were undermining our r-ship while we were together. Ev-ery-thing.

My current fave line from him... .

"I'm... .not like other people... ."

At the moment, mine from her, used repeatedly during the break-up stream of electronic vitriol: "THE REASON WE'RE APART HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME!" (her caps) All the while RAGING at me about how I refuse to take any responsibility for my role in our issues.

I love him still - I suspect I always will love him. But the only way I ever get into dialogue with him ever again is when his specialising-in-Cluster-B therapist asks me to attend sessions for discussion of his behaviour in our relationship as part of his assessment and ongoing treatment.

Since he isn't seeing any therapist and angrily claimed "I don't need advice from you!" when I suggested he should talk to someone further about dysthymia/ cyclothymia, I don't see that happening. Not til he's destroyed some more women's lives and sanity.

But I'm never entering dialogue with him directly again without that.

The same. Exactly. I have accepted and committee to no further contact of any type with her. The only way I'd even speak with her at this point would be if what you describe were to happen -- if I were invited by the professional to join in the clinical setting. Which we all know won't EVER happen.

Hang in there. Keep posting.
Logged

"Being deceived in effect takes away your right to make accurate life choices based on truth." -- waverider

"Don't try the impossible, as you're sure to become well and truly stuck and require recovery." -- Vintage Land Rover 4X4 driving instructional video
eyvindr
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: NC
Posts: 900



« Reply #60 on: October 05, 2013, 02:25:58 PM »

Oh, and Ironman --

You'd've been recruited had you not volunteered.

e.
Logged

"Being deceived in effect takes away your right to make accurate life choices based on truth." -- waverider

"Don't try the impossible, as you're sure to become well and truly stuck and require recovery." -- Vintage Land Rover 4X4 driving instructional video
musicfan42
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 509


« Reply #61 on: October 06, 2013, 12:58:25 AM »

I don't think I'd call it hatred, but I definitely am aware that I want to feel like "I'm the winner... .you're the loser" - like IronManFalls' signature "Congratulations... .you lost me" but a bit more so.

Yeah for me, it's definitely hatred. I wasn't willing to admit that. I think it's safer for me to say "oh I wish people well, I don't want to be an angry bitter person" blah blah. That's the safe option. It's harder to admit that I have all these turbulent emotions-that I am emotionally intense... when I fall in love, I just fall deep so when I hate someone, it's also intense. It's not the idealization/devaluation of a borderline as I don't split people black for no apparent reason. I have worked on black and white thinking in CBT though (I've had depressive episodes).

but he was still sending "I love you... .our relationship is (present tense) so important to me, I've never stopped loving you" and making disparaging comments about "other people" finding him exciting, whatever, but it's only me who truly knows him.

This line (in bold) is a load of crap... just designed to hook you in.

I sent him an angry email telling him I will not permit him to continue actively trying to destroy me and he would never hear from me again. Multiple angry messages from him, so I blocked all those sources.

Is there any way you can get a new email address? I was once very angry with someone a few years ago and sent them a horrible email and it became all-out war. I learned from that and vowed never to go down that route again... it's just not worth it.

It's all very well saying that you blocked his email address but if you're anything like me, you'll quite possibly de-block him again just to see whether he's contacted you...

it just seems that every stage of his progress with her is a reaction to my increasing independence, my 'rejection' of his love.

Why would he want you to move on? He was getting a constant ego boost from stringing you along with "I only love you" whilst getting with other girls. Sorry to be blunt about it but seriously, this guy is toxic for you. It's about him being in control. He doesn't want you independent-he sounds like the type of guy who complains about how you're too "clingy" or criticizes you in devaluation phase but secretly loves all the attention. The lack of attention can be crippling for someone like that... being ignored is actually harder for them to take than an angry response so if you really want to hurt him back, just ignore him.

But I will be really happy when it ends. A friend is keeping an eye on it for me, and has agreed to tell me nothing at all except when it ends... .it will all be over by Christmas, as the saying goes, I reckon... .if he's defriending already as well as dictating her behaviour... .it's the push-pull-push-pull dance, isn't it?

Why bother try to keep an eye on it? He's going to do whatever he wants to anyways
Logged
Escaped 30.Sept.2013
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 146


« Reply #62 on: October 06, 2013, 01:46:21 AM »

Thankyou, eyvindr!

I am lucky - all this very nearly broke me, but it didn't... .I have a phenomenal therapist who I started seeing early on in the worst gaslighting, and a core of exceptional friends, plus good parents.

The biggest lesson I've learnt is:

- I need to find out why I ended up staying for 15 months when there were signs of push-pull and mild gaslighting in the first six weeks.

My ex would be heartbroken to hear me say it but: THIS ISN'T ABOUT HIM - it's about me. I need to heal, but I also need to heal everything that went previously that left me vulnerable to clinging on to a relationship that was taking over my life and upsetting me from the first weeks... .


But reading the identi-tales here - that has shocked me. And I suspect if someone did some serious research, we in this Leaving board would have as many similarities as a group, as do our BPD/bipolar/Cluster-B exes... .
Logged
Escaped 30.Sept.2013
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 146


« Reply #63 on: October 06, 2013, 02:03:37 AM »

But I will be really happy when it ends. A friend is keeping an eye on it for me, and has agreed to tell me nothing at all except when it ends... .

Why bother try to keep an eye on it? He's going to do whatever he wants to anyways

He certainly is - it's the only way he knows of living... .

Why bother to have my friend keep an eye on it? Because I'm very, very recently entered the stage of accepting that this is now over, permanently. I spent three months following his idea to try to be friends, so he succeeded in keeping my attention, as you rightly put it.

He's 'trained' my mind to be permanently trying to second-guess him.

And it's going to take time for me to care less... .and less... .and less... .until I reach the day when I just have no interest in who he is seeing.

Meanwhile, I want to be proved right, I want the satisfaction of seeing the same pattern in my replacement, I want the smug "Hah!" feeling of seeing the replacement fail just like I failed - to confirm to me that he cannot have a healthy relationship, that it wasn't that I was "not good enough" but that two horrendously-damaged people came together to create "the perfect storm" and that I am going to come out alive, despite everything.

Childish, yes - but at the moment it's working for me - and I am thinking less and less of him. I'm about to set myself rationed times in here when I talk about him, so probably an hour at the start and end of my day, then less, etc.

That way I can focus more and more on ME, and how I survive this, not only intact but stronger. And not stronger because I shut off half the world's population, but stronger because I become healthier in my mind, my feelings, my relating to everyone I know in all ways.

Logged
Escaped 30.Sept.2013
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 146


« Reply #64 on: October 06, 2013, 02:09:12 AM »

Escaped --

I loved the stuff about addiction and levels of brain chems

My friends, the ones who are sending me 'PAVLOV!' messages to keep my brain-re-training going, have now started calling the normal, steady, low-level trickle of endorphins that I've never been used to, and am learning to adapt to... .their word for it is "friendorphins'! Smiling (click to insert in post)

Logged
hopealways
aka moving4ward
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 725


« Reply #65 on: October 06, 2013, 08:51:48 AM »

They are NOT better after us, they are the same.  They put their mask right back on and go to the next victim, seduce them, and once they have them they take the mask off and turn into their evil self once again. It's a vicious cycle but don't think they are ever happy in any relationship.  And they always will lie about how their relationships ended.
Logged
Ironmanrises
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1774


« Reply #66 on: October 06, 2013, 09:01:50 AM »

They are NOT better after us, they are the same.  They put their mask right back on and go to the next victim, seduce them, and once they have them they take the mask off and turn into their evil self once again. It's a vicious cycle but don't think they are ever happy in any relationship.  And they always will lie about how their relationships ended.

In bold/underlined.

Bingo.

This needs to be understood.

It is a pattern of behavior... .

That they exhibited... .

Before you... .

With you... .

And will do so... .

After you.

It does not stop.
Logged
Escaped 30.Sept.2013
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 146


« Reply #67 on: October 06, 2013, 09:23:20 AM »

I agree with hopealways and with IronManFalls BUT... .I don't think the BPDs are evil.

I think they have minimal/zero awareness of the effects of their behaviour on others. Their empathy is switched off, so that they only see the results for themselves.

As a very small child will lie, steal, do most things it can think of, in order to get the cookie - and the 3-4 year old child doesn't think, "wait, this is my brother's cookie, he'll be upset", or "wait, my brother may get unjustly blamed for me taking the cookie"... .the small child just thinks "COOKIIIIEEE!" and goes for it by any means. Including trying to climb up unstable things that, in falling, may injure the child himself.

but they jsut have no ability to think of others, themselves... .the only thought is "I NEEEED THAT COOKIIIIEEEE!"

So... .no, they are not better after us. They are the same, and they'll stay the same, unless they fully co-operate with really major therapy and treatment over many years. Which is unlikely because then they wouldn't be able to have the cookie right now.

But basically... .my ex-bf grabbed me as a cookie, chewed me up, spat me out, and has now grabbed the next cookie in the jar... .


Me - I'm busy turning myself into a gingerbread-woman, so I can run away on my little legs and never be grabbed by him again Smiling (click to insert in post)
Logged
DragoN
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 996


« Reply #68 on: October 06, 2013, 09:32:25 AM »

Excerpt
So... .no, they are not better after us. They are the same, and they'll stay the same, unless they fully co-operate with really major therapy and treatment over many years. Which is unlikely because then they wouldn't be able to have the cookie right now.

You are all 3 correct.

Knowing it and being forced due to circumstance to be around it for the finale, doesn't change how horrible it feels to be around the dysfunction. Need serious shields and armor to pull this off. NC is so much easier. Only the thoughts torment but I don't have to hear or see the real deal acting up in front of me.
Logged
eyvindr
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: NC
Posts: 900



« Reply #69 on: October 06, 2013, 11:31:08 AM »

All -- this is a really great thread. Super observations in here.

Terrific summary, Escaped --

I agree with hopealways and with IronManFalls BUT... .I don't think the BPDs are evil.

I think they have minimal/zero awareness of the effects of their behaviour on others. Their empathy is switched off, so that they only see the results for themselves.

As a very small child will lie, steal, do most things it can think of, in order to get the cookie - and the 3-4 year old child doesn't think, "wait, this is my brother's cookie, he'll be upset", or "wait, my brother may get unjustly blamed for me taking the cookie"... .the small child just thinks "COOKIIIIEEE!" and goes for it by any means. Including trying to climb up unstable things that, in falling, may injure the child himself.

but they jsut have no ability to think of others, themselves... .the only thought is "I NEEEED THAT COOKIIIIEEEE!"

So... .no, they are not better after us. They are the same, and they'll stay the same, unless they fully co-operate with really major therapy and treatment over many years. Which is unlikely because then they wouldn't be able to have the cookie right now.

I don't believe they're evil, either -- and I've struggled at times with the "non" vs "pwBPD" dynamic -- I'm cool with "pwBPD," but "nons" tends to get used in a way that implies that we're somehow better than them and feels to me like an us vs them mentality -- as if they're the enemy, as opposed to people suffering with a very damaging illness. That said, I recognize that many here have suffered genuinely horrible things as a result of the destructive, self-centered, thoughtless behaviors of the pwBPD in their lives. And some of those behaviors do very much feel evil. And maybe I'm just overcompensating with compassion.

Frankly, I'd like to see a replacement for the whole "splitting/painting us  black" convention, as well -- even if it's as "cosmetic" as just saying being "split bad" or "washed good."

Me - I'm busy turning myself into a gingerbread-woman, so I can run away on my little legs and never be grabbed by him again Smiling (click to insert in post)

I like it -- if you're gonna be a cookie, be a self-aware cookie!
Logged

"Being deceived in effect takes away your right to make accurate life choices based on truth." -- waverider

"Don't try the impossible, as you're sure to become well and truly stuck and require recovery." -- Vintage Land Rover 4X4 driving instructional video
Escaped 30.Sept.2013
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 146


« Reply #70 on: October 06, 2013, 11:52:03 AM »

Thankyou eyvindr Smiling (click to insert in post)

Massive irony in how my ex-bf's empathy switched off after the mirroring-honeymoon - I have quite serious autism (but am exceptionally high-functioning so I work round it mostly), and out of interest my ex did the "Empathy Quotient" questionnaire - I score almost off the scale at the autism spectrum end, and he scored almost off the scale at the other end!

Which fits with what BPD people themselves say, that they feel too much emotion, too much empathy and simply cannot cope with the huge intensity of feeling that much, it overwhelms them.

He was always very anxious about how my "condition" might affect the relationship... .little did I realise it would be his "condition", whatever it is in the Cluster-B group, BPD, bipolar/cyclothymia/whatever... .
Logged
Escaped 30.Sept.2013
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 146


« Reply #71 on: October 06, 2013, 11:54:34 AM »

Me - I'm busy turning myself into a gingerbread-woman, so I can run away on my little legs and never be grabbed by him again Smiling (click to insert in post)

I like it -- if you're gonna be a cookie, be a self-aware cookie!

New signature on my profile/posts! Smiling (click to insert in post)
Logged
eyvindr
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: NC
Posts: 900



« Reply #72 on: October 06, 2013, 12:47:42 PM »

Escaped --

Wow -- interesting. Autism was one of my ex's dx's for me. Others, during the positive times, included:



  • cyclothymia


  • depression


  • sleep apnea-related irritablity




Massive irony in how my ex-bf's empathy switched off after the mirroring-honeymoon - I have quite serious autism (but am exceptionally high-functioning so I work round it mostly), and out of interest my ex did the "Empathy Quotient" questionnaire - I score almost off the scale at the autism spectrum end, and he scored almost off the scale at the other end!

Which fits with what BPD people themselves say, that they feel too much emotion, too much empathy and simply cannot cope with the huge intensity of feeling that much, it overwhelms them.

He was always very anxious about how my "condition" might affect the relationship... .little did I realise it would be his "condition", whatever it is in the Cluster-B group, BPD, bipolar/cyclothymia/whatever... .

During the bad times:



  • autism and PTSD (were included during both times)


  • bipolar


  • PTSD


  • malignant narcissistic abuser (my favorite)




Prior to our first break-up, following one of my post-blow-out ultimatums that, unless we began to address the underlying mental illness causes of our rt-ship probs, I was unwilling to continue, we began seeing (together) a therapist who specialized in D.I.D., which my ex admitted to having been dx'd as, some 20 yrs ago. We saw him about 3 times before breaking up in "chapter 1." I continued to see the therapist, for myself, throughout the period of that 2-mo break-up, and continued seeing him 1-2X/mo for another 6 mos after we got back together -- while my ex continued to talk about seeing a therapist, but never got around to doing it. During my therapy, I ASKED my psych whether he felt I could be any of these things my ex consistently implied that I was -- even shared with him some research I'd done on schema therapy and scores from tests I'd taken -- he just shook his head and dismissed it all.

Wanted to add -- in reference to my earlier comments about referring to pwBPD as being evil -- I hope no one interpreted my ramblings for righteousness. It is all very confusing -- I don't see people as evil, but I see the disease as evil, I can see where the behaviors that these individuals engage in which are triggered by the disease, can be evil -- are at best not very nice. Something my therapist said to me that was helpful, and which I often need to remind myself of, was "Remember -- (ex) may do these things b/c she has DID, or whatever she may have, but (ex) is responsible for everything she does, regardless of why or what causes it."
Logged

"Being deceived in effect takes away your right to make accurate life choices based on truth." -- waverider

"Don't try the impossible, as you're sure to become well and truly stuck and require recovery." -- Vintage Land Rover 4X4 driving instructional video
heartandwhole
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3591



« Reply #73 on: October 06, 2013, 01:47:49 PM »

Staff only

Hi everybody.  This thread has reached the four page limit, so it is now locked.  Feel free to start a new topic and continue the conversation.
Logged


When the pain of love increases your joy, roses and lilies fill the garden of your soul.
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2021?

Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2020 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
40days_in_desert
Ahquei3s
alphabeta
Amethyste
Angie59
ArtistGuy70
AskingWhy
assumezero
At Bay
Avanzando
Baglady
Beneck
bigredneck
Bittlecat
Boll Weevil
calmboom
Cat Familiar
Chosen
Dnmtnbkr
drained1996
Eggshellsbroken
FaintTheGoat
FaithHopeLove
FindingMe2011
Forgiveness
freespirit
GaGrl
ggGreg
Gift to Myself
gotbushels
Harri
hopeandchoices
I Am Redeemed
Imatter33
Jazzy48
jdc
jones54
Jonthan
Katrinalove
Kwamina
l8kgrl
LLgreen
Longterm
lorymac
lovenature
loyalwife
lucidone
Manifest32f
MariannaR
Meridius
Methuen
mgirl
Minttea
Mommydoc
Mutt
narcdaughter2
needPeace
NorseWoman
Notgoneyet
oceanheart
oftentimes
Omega1
once removed
Only Human
otherlife
palynne
PeacefulMom
Pedro
pest947
podsnapG
ProudDad12
pursuingJoy
Radcliff
Raul
Recycle
Resiliant
Rev
Rosheger
Sad4Her
SamwizeGamgee
Sandalwood
SBBayArea
SCM
SerendipityChild
SES
Silverhope
Skip
songbirdtwo
StillStuck
Swimmy55
Teno
townhouse
truthbeknown
turtleengine501
Ventak
vinnie77
Violet00
wavewatcher
wendydarling
WhatJustHappened?
Whichwayisup
whirlpoollife
Wicker Man
WindofChange
worn_out
WTL
zachira
zaqsert

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!