no cure for BPD

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I had a session with my T today. Usually look forward to them as she only validats a lot of things I think of my breakup. She has told me before the best thing my ex did for me was leave. Today I mentioned to her about BPD and thinking my ex was/is borderline. She says she has some borderline clients and it usually is combined with some other mental condition. She said she could see my ex being borderline. She also explained that there is no cure for BPD not even therapy can fix the disordered thinking, it can only teach mindfulness about the symptoms and where it comes from. Ultimately the cognitive process of the borderlines thinking never changes. If in fact my ex is borderline there is no hope for a long term and happy relationship with him. You would think this affirmation makes me feel better about the situation but alas it does not. What do y'all think in your experience has someone diagnosed with BPD ever moved on to live a normal fulfilling life where they maintained normal and happy interpersonal relationships?

[CoasterRider]

I had a session with my T today. Usually look forward to them as she only validats a lot of things I think of my breakup. She has told me before the best thing my ex did for me was leave. Today I mentioned to her about BPD and thinking my ex was/is borderline. She says she has some borderline clients and it usually is combined with some other mental condition. She said she could see my ex being borderline. She also explained that there is no cure for BPD not even therapy can fix the disordered thinking, it can only teach mindfulness about the symptoms and where it comes from. Ultimately the cognitive process of the borderlines thinking never changes. If in fact my ex is borderline there is no hope for a long term and happy relationship with him. You would think this affirmation makes me feel better about the situation but alas it does not. What do y'all think in your experience has someone diagnosed with BPD ever moved on to live a normal fulfilling life where they maintained normal and happy interpersonal relationships?

[fromheeltoheal]

The disorder is the result of trauma that happened so early in a sufferer's life that it got hardwired into their personality, unchangeable, unlike belief systems, which are like software and can be deleted or changed.

There's a gal named Tami Green on YouTube who has the disorder and says she's got a handle on it, pretty compelling, and there are other success stories, at least ones that sold book deals, and the prognosis is actually good for someone who sticks with a long term plan to learn to manage the disorder, but no, there is no cure.

[CoasterRider]

She said regardless of diagnosis someone who is incapable or refuses to see and take responsibility for themselves and their actions is truly psychotic and there is no way to changes or fix it and it's someone I should want no where near me.

[Waifed]

I think that this site is somewhat jaded. I also believe that many psychiatrists (mine included) are old school and base their opinions on history. Treatment for BPD is really still in its infancy and there are some success stories. I have not read any professional articles /studies that claim that BPD can be cured. I have read on some sites where BPD's / SO post that they or their partners have reached some type of remission. It is my belief that those that want to improve and are not totally comorbidly damaged can learn enough coping skills to live a much better life. Some may even reach a point where they are self aware and able to live a life of normalcy in regards to relationships.

[fromheeltoheal]

I think in denial is more accurate than psychotic, but I agree: Run!

I liken it to alcoholism, another incurable disease with sufferers in total denial, until they hit bottom. A borderline will keep doing what works until it doesn't, and as long as there's a continuous supply of attachments, there's no reason to change. Plus they're in constant pain, so how much pain does it take beyond that for a borderline to hit bottom?

[Eodmava]

I think that the blanket statement "there is no cure for BPD" is true when considered in the present context of psycho-therapeutic/psycho-tropic brain treatments.  However, the hopelessness of the statement belies a couple of things that I have observed during the past three year journey to understand what is going on with my soon to be ex wife.  

First off, BPD's can be the most beautiful, funny, sensuous people that you will ever meet.  There are attributes that make a person whole and the fact that they have this brain disorder doesn't necessarily exclude them from "worth."  

Now, whether or not the person with BPD can provide "you" with what "you" need... . that is something only "you" can decide.  I don't mean to sound cynical, but I went through a spiritual awakening over the past couple of years during which I learned what true agape love is... . seeing through the painful reactions to her behaviors.  I began to realize that she was simply so defended, so anxious... . that she could not help but lash out.  This requires a level of compassion and empathy that most people are unable to achieve... . not saying I have made this phase shift yet myself.

Second, the technology necessary to enable continued expansion of the neuro-scientific developments of the past several years provide much needed hope that this disorder will eventually be able to be treated using presently unseen solutions.  The neuro-pathways developing in a small child between the ages of 0-6 years old form the basis for all perceptive emotion, logic and reason.  If a child is forced to wear shoes too small, their feet become deformed and don't function ideally.  The same is true when the child is forced to endure the emotional equivalent of "tight shoes."  The neuro-pathic development is arrested or altered and while the person can think/reason/emote... . it is never as designed.  

Finally, I have met with a couple of healed BPD's.  There are several common factors I believe that occurred in all of their healing journeys.  Number 1 - the pwBPD had to hit an absolute bottom.  Number 2 - the person had to realize that there was no other way to go other than to let down their defenses.  Number 3 - they needed to have a support system in place that supported their healing without enabling them.  

If you want to get a really good look at Real Love versus other types... . please read, Real Love by Greg Baer.  Amazing book.  Changed my life.  

[fromheeltoheal]

I agree with everything you say Eod.  The deal breaker for me was focusing on my needs for a minute and asking are they getting met? Unequivocally No. There's a lot to be said for compassion, empathy and unconditional love, and when they aren't reciprocated, it gets very tiring, to the point of gotta go.

Yes, medical and psychiatric advances are such that we don't even know what future solutions will be available, just that there will be some. Still, most borderlines stay in denial and don't seek treatment, and cannot be forced to, so what about them? Wait for that bottom... .

[bpdspell]

Coaster Rider,

Having to accept that we fell in love with a mentally ill person is quite devastating….especially when we realize that it is not within our power to fix or rescue them.

I have to admit that my desires for my ex to get better were motivated by totally selfish reasons. Looking back I can honestly say that my desires were about getting back to that blissful period of painted white idealization before the fantasy bubble popped. I would have done anything to jar, preserve and restore the idealization I experienced with my ex…it was that beautiful.  

I don't think there's a person on here who hadn't at some point in time in this BPD experience wished for a shot, a pill, or an elixir that we could give our ex's to make them better for us. But the reality is our ex's were damaged goods way before we entered the picture and there's a likely possibility that we're quite damaged as well to be attracted to and consequently in relationship with a borderline.

There's no cure for mental illness unfortunately. On some levels mental illness can be managed if the person is insightful enough to desire help but BPD is a form of narcissism and many narcissist's are simply too mentally stunted to grasp the emotional maturity of accountability. Accountability from narcissists is EXTREMELY RARE. UNICORN RARE.

We have better chances on focusing on ourselves and what got us here in the first place.

Spell

[Eodmava]

HeeltoHeal,

I don't think anybody should judge a non's decision to stay or go.  It is completely up to the individual and we as outsiders to their relationship have to respect their decision.  As far as BPD's go... . let them go... . emotionally, physically, mentally... . just release them back to where they came from.  I know that this sounds idealistic, but I have found that prayer, mindfulness, learning and focusing on myself, my issues, my weaknesses and strengths... . has made me a stronger person throughout this horrific ordeal.  

I guess that what I am trying to say is that I empathize with all the others leaving and I appreciate the support that others here have offered to me.  However, I want to encourage all the nons here to take a good long look in the mirror and find out where you can improve, where you can get stronger, smarter, wiser, healthier, and generally better.  Focus on yourself... . its the only thing you can control.

MAVA  

[fromheeltoheal]

HeeltoHeal,

I don't think anybody should judge a non's decision to stay or go.  It is completely up to the individual and we as outsiders to their relationship have to respect their decision.  As far as BPD's go... . let them go... . emotionally, physically, mentally... . just release them back to where they came from.  I know that this sounds idealistic, but I have found that prayer, mindfulness, learning and focusing on myself, my issues, my weaknesses and strengths... . has made me a stronger person throughout this horrific ordeal.  

I guess that what I am trying to say is that I empathize with all the others leaving and I appreciate the support that others here have offered to me.  However, I want to encourage all the nons here to take a good long look in the mirror and find out where you can improve, where you can get stronger, smarter, wiser, healthier, and generally better.  Focus on yourself... . its the only thing you can control.

MAVA  

Exactly, and thanks! I've come to see my borderline 'experience' as a gift, an education I needed and didn't know it, and the growth I've experienced motivated by pain has been profound, and I'm better for it.

[ogopogodude]

If you want to get a really good look at Real Love versus other types... . please read, Real Love by Greg Baer.  Amazing book.  Changed my life.  

I am being a fly on the wall regarding this thread. Thanks for the tidbit of information. I will go buy this book pronto.

[Perfidy]

Without getting overly technical, I think this can be reduced down to everyday terms and easy to understand. Yes, I agree that personality disorders exist. I cannot deny that I lived the chaos. I think rather than ask if BPD can be "cured" a more household question would be "can people change?" The answer I agree with the most is this. We will always be who we are. We cannot change that. Even when an alcoholic stops using and begins recovery, that person is still an alcoholic. Just as an example. Same for any recovery oriented issues. It follows suit that a person with a particular set of personality traits will always posses those traits. I will always be me. I have no choice. If I'm a grumpy person I will always tend to be grumpy. If I'm pleasant and happy, that will tend to be my nature and one would expect that to be my general personality. I know that temporary shifts can occur. I know that physical illness can produce unhappiness. I know that injury can produce irritability. Temporary. I see this in the personalities of the people that I know. For the most part the personalities of the people that I know are very consistent. BPD is no exception. We are who we are.

[irishmarmot]

This is a good thread.  I read somewhere that the trend now in medicine is that BPD is inherited and not necessarily due to childhood trauma.  I realized pretty early about 2 months in that my ex was BPD, the relationship lasted 4 months with seeing her less and less.  Still it was a short horrific experience that has jolted me quite a bit.  What's interesting is that as I started to grow spiritually,  we started to deteriorate.   I think she was unable to mirror the change in me so she was outed so to speak.  :)idn't take her long to find a replacement and that's the end of the story.

[myself]

If you're wired to deny, wouldn't you deny you'd reached your bottom?

The bottom being where most of us bounce back, having faced it.

Is there a top?

[fromheeltoheal]

If you're wired to deny, wouldn't you deny you'd reached your bottom?

The bottom being where most of us bounce back, having faced it.

Is there a top?

The bottom is defined as the point where the pain is so great it breaks through the denial, and the only options appear to be a letting down of the defenses and a humility; if someone isn't there yet, it's not the bottom.

Maybe the top is the perfect human, so no, there isn't one.

[Perfidy]

Up is down and down is up, but this way is that way, but down is down and up is here. Keep moving!

[charred]

There isn't a cure for a person's personality as of yet... . no surprise.

For those of us who had r/s with pwBPD... . some hope... but not a cure either.

Most of us are in some way insecurely attached, and the pwBPD gets past our defenses, gets super close then devastates us.

Great parenting would have prevented most the BPD and people that fall hard for them.

Not sure how to clean up the mess from the parents we all had...  

On the bright side... . I think a "We are working on a cure for your personality"... bumper sticker would go.

[Ironmanrises]

The very existence of this forum is proof enough that there is no cure for BPD.

[Lady31]

As a man thinks in his heart... . so is he.  I think as humans (the creation) we only see with what makes logical sense to us.  There was a time when the earth being flat made logical sense to some... . and we all know how that turned out.  Was it truth? NO - it was a lack of information.

The thing that amazes me is that we see the complexities of this creation, and all that is in it - and how everything works together, and yet... . BPD = no hope.  That is such boxed thinking in my opinion.  Not truth - just truth when held to the standard of the individual who holds it.  Look at where technology and medicine has gone... . as well as all that has been discovered in psychiatry.  Look how the body heals.  Look how the earth sustains life.

I mean really.  Just because we haven't figured it all out yet we think that is the truth?  REALLY?  I'm glad not every person on the planet gave up and closed the door with such hopelessness when it came to cancer, and many other things for that matter.  

Thank God for those brave enough to look the impossible in the face and take it on, bring hope to the hopeless, and faith to the blind.  It's those gifted in this particular area who couple that wisdom & knowledge with the understanding that there is ALWAYS an answer, we just have to find it - that will sometime in the future be developing the treatment to deal with this sad disorder.

I'm not saying that we should live in a fairy tale world... . I know as well as the others here what a crazy ride it was.  I am just trying to throw in some balance to such doom & gloom.  That is black and white thinking in my opinion - and actually there is great evidence in all we have seen throughout history to support that finding a cure for this is highly PROBABLE.

[ShadowDancer]

HeeltoHeal,

 As far as BPD's go... . let them go... . emotionally, physically, mentally... . just release them back to where they came from.  

MAVA  

"Catch and release".

[CoasterRider]

 

Exactly, and thanks! I've come to see my borderline 'experience' as a gift, an education I needed and didn't know it, and the growth I've experienced motivated by pain has been profound, and I'm better for it.

You shared that with me in another thread and I have taken it to heart. What's funny is the stuff my ex is angry with me about or used to "paint me black" aren't the things I'm disappointed in myself for how I acted in that relationship. I'm angry I ignored the red flags, made excuses for my own instincts, let myself get out of shape, let myself become content with the status quo of dysfunction, and things being "comfortable" and being a lazy partner. These are the things in going to fix about myself so that these things that really should have been the topic of dissatisfaction in the relationship don't follow me into the next one.

[fromheeltoheal]

You shared that with me in another thread and I have taken it to heart. What's funny is the stuff my ex is angry with me about or used to "paint me black" aren't the things I'm disappointed in myself for how I acted in that relationship. I'm angry I ignored the red flags, made excuses for my own instincts, let myself get out of shape, let myself become content with the status quo of dysfunction, and things being "comfortable" and being a lazy partner. These are the things in going to fix about myself so that these things that really should have been the topic of dissatisfaction in the relationship don't follow me into the next one.

Good for you Coaster, and we can use that anger as drive to help us grow, it's wasted anger otherwise. Take care a you!

[strikeforce]

I have seen and read a lot of stuff by BPD sufferers that claim to be cured or whatever. I don't take what a BPD is saying at face value. We all learned that the hard way.

There is no cure, therapy can help extreme mood swings and their management and suicidal thoughts but a BPD is never going to have control over feelings of abandonment and intimacy.

[Pretty Woman]

Coaster,

   I beg to differ. While there isn't an actual "cure" they can make significant progress through hard work and therapy treating their "core issues".

BPD is caused by neglect at a young age (between 1-3yrs old). That is why BPD is not a disease. It's not something they "caught" its an emotional disorder. It's like something stopped growing. You can't "regrow" it but through work they can recognize their issues and make better choices. The problem is it is hard work and persons with BPD do not like to admit they are in the wrong so imagine them working with a T that is trying to "fix them".

Many start therapy and then drop it or end up suing the therapist (they are taking everything as a personal attack).

Your therapist is right about the co-morbidity aspect though. Many have Bi-Polar, ADD amongst other afflictions. It makes it hard to diagnose and to medicate.

The whole thing is sad and we are better off moving on to a healthier person for us.

[love4meNOTu]

This thread makes me think about how hard it is for me to change.

I've been working with a therapist since July. I see her every week. I went to an intensive outpatient program for nine days. I work every day on mindfulness. I've taken up yoga.

20 times a day I have to redirect my thoughts to the here and now.

I have been depressed since my ex husband left in May.

Now, my ex has BPD. And he has had this disorder for his entire life. If I am struggling to change my depressive thoughts, and I do not have any issues beyond my "negative" thinking, how can I expect him to change how he has coped with life over the last 45 years?

So whether or not BPD is curable is not a factor for me. The fact is that my ex does not wish to be any different that what he is right now. And he threw our marriage away because his fears overcame him. I threw our marriage away because I was afraid of what my ex could do to my life, which are my fears.

Two people, lots of fears, one with a willingness to change and the other to survive.

I think I know who will end up better off in the end, and it's me. I don't say that because I want to triumph over him, I say that because it's the truth.

I can do more than "get by" in life. I can actually live mine. He can't do that. He has too much fear and pain to truly live, love and trust.

Hugs,

L

[Pearl55]

NO CURE WHATSOEVER! They are extremely toxic, get away from them.

[Octoberfest]

This topic is discussed a lot on these boards, but an interesting thought occurred to me as I read this thread: I think people are curious about there being a cure for BPD for more than one reason.

There are many who seek an answer to this question in the hopes of hearing there IS a cure, so that they might fulfill their fantasy of someday working out a relationship with their BPDex.

There are others (I am lumped in here) who seek an answer to this question in the hopes of hearing there IS NOT a cure, so they (we) might feel secure in the fact that our BPDex's will continue their destructive patterns, thus validating that WE DID NOT CAUSE them to cheat, to lie, and whatever other hurtful things they have done to us.

There might be a rare third group, those who are TRULY detached, and who want the answer to this question to be "Yes", so that their BPDex's might have a hope of living a happy and fulfilled life with someone else.  I think the number of those in this group is TINY compared to the others, and I would seriously ask anyone who claims to belong here if they GENUINELY feel this way, or if saying it just makes them feel better about belonging in one of the aforementioned categories.

My ex was something of a rarity on these boards in that she was both diagnosed and had also undergone therapy, and was in therapy, when I was with her.  She was undergoing DBT, and she has at least a year of it under her belt (she is almost 23).  She still was dating 3 guys at once while with me (unbeknownst to me of course).  After me, she was dating two at once, and got engaged to one 2 months after meeting him.  They are now split and she is with someone new.

So, no, going to therapy doesn't ensure a fix.  As mentioned, the person has to really want it.  They really want it by hitting rock bottom.  My ex has hit what would be rock bottom for so many other people, and keeps trucking.  Who knows.

[Lady31]

This topic is discussed a lot on these boards, but an interesting thought occurred to me as I read this thread: I think people are curious about there being a cure for BPD for more than one reason.

There are many who seek an answer to this question in the hopes of hearing there IS a cure, so that they might fulfill their fantasy of someday working out a relationship with their BPDex.

There are others (I am lumped in here) who seek an answer to this question in the hopes of hearing there IS NOT a cure, so they (we) might feel secure in the fact that our BPDex's will continue their destructive patterns, thus validating that WE DID NOT CAUSE them to cheat, to lie, and whatever other hurtful things they have done to us.

There might be a rare third group, those who are TRULY detached, and who want the answer to this question to be "Yes", so that their BPDex's might have a hope of living a happy and fulfilled life with someone else.  I think the number of those in this group is TINY compared to the others, and I would seriously ask anyone who claims to belong here if they GENUINELY feel this way, or if saying it just makes them feel better about belonging in one of the aforementioned categories.

My ex was something of a rarity on these boards in that she was both diagnosed and had also undergone therapy, and was in therapy, when I was with her.  She was undergoing DBT, and she has at least a year of it under her belt (she is almost 23).  She still was dating 3 guys at once while with me (unbeknownst to me of course).  After me, she was dating two at once, and got engaged to one 2 months after meeting him.  They are now split and she is with someone new.

So, no, going to therapy doesn't ensure a fix.  As mentioned, the person has to really want it.  They really want it by hitting rock bottom.  My ex has hit what would be rock bottom for so many other people, and keeps trucking.  Who knows.

I agree with this completely.  While I do not take the extreme view as many others that there is no hope for this - I proposed in another thread regarding this topic that IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER IF THERE IS A CURE OR NOT.  If the pwBPD is not actively seeking help on their OWN and truly desiring to get help and sticks with it - then it doesn't matter!  We can't make toxic choices for ourselves to be with these people because one thing is CERTAIN.  If they don't get help, THEY DEFINITELY WILL NOT GET BETTER - even if there is a cure.

I was bashed with this thinking on the other thread - one poster even said he was offended at my assumption that I thought many of us get hung up on a cure because if they can say for certain there is NOT they can move on - instead of looking at the crux of the matter which is -

IF THEY ARE NOT GETTING HELP - MOVE ON. 

I am glad you posted this - because it shows that my original belief that many seek this answer for that reason is indeed true!

[fromheeltoheal]

I honestly don't care if my ex gets 'cured' or not at this point, but the concept of a magic pill at some point in our biotechnical future is an interesting one.  What if there was some pharmaceutical that would arrest or reverse the 'BPD-ness' of someone; could we force people to take it?  What if we were subjected to psychological screening, and folks deemed to have BPD, or alcoholism, or whatever for that matter, would it be a violation of civil rights to make them take it?  Probably.  Interesting discussion, not all that far-fetched.

[Mazda]

I would just like to add... . queen BPDs, or BPDs with narc traits are pretty much resistant to therapy.  No change there.

Also, from the perspective of medication, I think a fundamental fact that is being missed out here is that BPD is a personality disorder.  It is axis 2, so it is a issue with thought process.  There is no medication for that. Axis 1, like bipolar, schizophrenia or depression are chemical imbalances, and so are therefore receptive to medication that change the chemical balance in the brain.  BPD is a hard wired problem, medication may help with some of the symptoms, but it cannot treat the cause.

Also, in terms of effectively "curing" a BPD, no.  You can teach techniques that alter the responses, but the thought processes will always be BPD.  Also, just to clarify, therapy helps in terms of alleviating suicide or self harming symptoms (but please understand that not acting on impulses is very different from not having thoughts), anger and rage outbursts and a few other symptoms.  However, the faulty thought processes, like splitting, manipulation, lying etc will always be present.

So in answer to this, I suppose it depends on what you mean by "cured".  They will never be able to be healthy adults in relationships.  They may show improvements, but they will always have some symptoms.

I personally don't think that's a "cure", nor do I think the prognosis is good, from a perspective of being able to make another person happy.  Is that sad?  I don't really think so.  They cause a lot of pain to others and I don't look at them as victims.  After all of my learning and research and conversations with specialists, they are just not nice people and thinking of them as "victims" of their illness is showing sympathy that they don't deserve.  Would you feel sympathy for a sociopath in jail for killing someone?  No.  So why feel sympathy for someone who has caused YOU obscene amounts of pain, abused you and not ever given a hoot about your pain.  Do they really feel remorse? Who cares?  They don't, because they continue to do it.  I tried to help my ex as much as I could.  Now I have radical acceptance that he is a very dangerous person who deserves no sympathy.

[charred]

No cure for a personality.

The hope for one is really reaching for most of us. I was bargaining and rationalizing staying in the most toxic r/s of my life... because early on it filled a need I wasn't aware I had... but that was quite temporary.

Often thought that if only she wasn't BPD... we could be together... and things along those lines... but its all fantasy.

My pwBPD had a long line of guys before/after me... both times I dated her, though I had 25 or so years between times. If she wasn't BPD... she probably would have been stable with someone else in the first place, or found someone else.

In the same vein... if they had a "cure"... presumably not a pill... maybe fantastic therapy... how long would it take and what are the chances the person would still be with us? I was painted black so bad so many times... . a normal person would be embarrassed to face me. We trigger them... so getting better might require them to be apart from us.

All in all... we know it is their personality, perhaps a few can change, most don't accept responsibility for anything, don't follow through on much, can't keep a close r/s with anyone (therapist long term... doubtful)... and all that adds up to most BPD people are going to continue being that way for quite some time, and the nature of the disorder makes it foolish to just wait around till it gets better, if you are on the toxic end of it.

I would love to have a hot looking gal that attended to me like my pwBPD did during the first idealizing phase... but a good partner has their own life and interests and has boundaries and is real... . not playing make believe like our pwBPD seems to have been in hindsight.

There isnt a cure for BPD... . there is prevention for it... . great parenting... . and it is far too rare.

[hergestridge]

There isn't a cure for a person's personality as of yet... . no surprise.

Exactly. A "cure" would be a total re-construction of the personality.

When push comes to shove I'm not sure if that's desirable for either the BPD person or the partner.

I think we can sometimes have the wrong expectations on treatment. We met and (hopefully) fell in love with a BPD partner. Why do we think that we know what the person is like without the BPD, and why do we think that we would will love and want to live with that person?

[Pearl55]

I agree with you Mazda. They are not victims and enjoy hurting other people. They don't feel pain the same way we do.they don't get hurt like us. I've got no sympathy for them neither. They are waste of space.

[shellsh0cked]

Wow I really screwed that up... . This was my post.

I am divorced as of 3 years ago August.  My xgf was also part of this fiasco.  During this time and after the f#cked up relationship with my xgf (which I deserve in some ways), I sure learned a lot about myself…about what is important, what is crap, and how to cope with stress.  I almost let this situation destroy my life…and my health.  During this time too, I ran from just about every woman I was involved with…clearly still being affected by this experience.  I also was ANGRY…especially at myself (like heeltoheal) about letting her do this to me.  I LET her…There were red flags screaming the whole time that this was a bad thing for me…but I ate it like candy.  I started to believe that this was normal for a woman to act this way…I rolled up everything I knew about myself and became a fulltime firefighter.  I lost interest in everything I loved…I forgot how to have fun.  I looked at the floor and my shoes a lot too…

I sure won’t be going back to that…I learned that life can exist outside of that abusive relationship…and I am a better person now.  I know now WHAT I want from a woman too…I know what is important in a woman…and won’t settle for less. 

[Octoberfest]

I agree with you Mazda. They are not victims and enjoy hurting other people. They don't feel pain the same way we do.they don't get hurt like us. I've got no sympathy for them neither. They are waste of space.

I think you are making a sweeping generalization here Pearl.  i don't think it is anywhere as simple as "they enjoy hurting people". I don't believe seeing them as purely victims is accurate either, but to suggest that they just  get their rocks off by causing other people pain is about as much of a simplification as explaining the composition and structure of the sun as being yellow and hot.

Try and remember back to when you were a child (I know it is hard, I am 20 and struggle). When a friend or anyone did something that you perceived as wronging you, it felt good to get even. You get hit, you hit back. Someone calls  you a mean name, you call them a mmean name. Ultimately the only way you felt better about being wronged was seeing them wronged, whether by you or other forces. PwBPD may be physically and intellectually adults, but emotionally are still children. They never grew or changed those patterns that we all had as children. As icing on the cake, PwBPD often suffer great fear of abandonment, which can be triggered by nearly ANYTHING. maybe they thought your tone of voice indicated you were upset with them or tired of them. BOOM. they are triggered and do the only thing they know how to; hit back, whether that be silent treatment, cheating, acting on impulses, or whatever other maladaptive coping mechanism.

I'm not saying treat them like victims. I did for a long time and I got hurt even worse for it. But it is taking the easy road to simply say "they enjoy hurting people." don't get me wrong, I think mybBPDex is a terribly hitty person. But she is just doing what she knows. Saying that they enjoy  what they do implies they are 100% consciously aware of it and choosing to do it.

[Mazda]

@october... . it's a generalisation and is not always true, but it is at times.  The push dynamic of relationships is when the borderlines are intending to hurt you.  They say and do things they know will hurt to push you away.  They do that on purpose.  Every time they hurt us it is not intentional, but there are times when the sole purpose of their mistreatment is to hurt.

Also,  I love how sympathy is evoked by saying they are emotionally childlike... . especially the high functioners.  My ex was a high functioner, and he knew how to behave and treat people, as he did that with others.  When I saw him verbally abuse me and then turn around and talk to the people on the next table as if we were a happily engaged couple I saw how calculated it all was.  When he would verbally abuse me in our language on the phone and break off to greet this colleagues as if he was having a normal conversation I saw how calculated the abuse was.  He was aware, he chose to speak to me that way.  Triggered or not, they know what is acceptable and what is not when they are high functioning.  So no, sorry, he is not childlike.  He is just a douchebag.

[DreamGirl]

I love the accountability in this thread.

One of the coolest sayings I saw was on Personal Inventory - ucmeicu2 said it... .

"I was a volunteer, not a victim".

From my understanding , I don't know that it matters the debate if BPD has it's cure. Or if the pioneers in the field, like Linehan and Aguirre, are simply wasting their time and effort.

The question still remains in how we found ourselves in these relationships and why we stayed as long as we did. For me, being treated badly was actually more comfortable then being treated well. It's kinda similar to the disordered souls who feel more at peace in admist chaos, because the quiet makes self reflection imminent... . and self reflection makes you face your own shortcomings which is far too painful for someone with little to no self worth.

Instead just being honest with ourselves - figuring out why I let so much of the crap go just to feel like I mattered. With my best kept secret in thinking I didn't deserve any better.

There are many who seek an answer to this question in the hopes of hearing there IS a cure, so that they might fulfill their fantasy of someday working out a relationship with their BPDex.

There are others (I am lumped in here) who seek an answer to this question in the hopes of hearing there IS NOT a cure, so they (we) might feel secure in the fact that our BPDex's will continue their destructive patterns, thus validating that WE DID NOT CAUSE them to cheat, to lie, and whatever other hurtful things they have done to us.

There might be a rare third group, those who are TRULY detached, and who want the answer to this question to be "Yes", so that their BPDex's might have a hope of living a happy and fulfilled life with someone else.  I think the number of those in this group is TINY compared to the others, and I would seriously ask anyone who claims to belong here if they GENUINELY feel this way, or if saying it just makes them feel better about belonging in one of the aforementioned categories.

 

This makes so much sense to me.  

If I'm honest though, there is a fluctuation between the second and third. He's had five children by five different women and put an ocean between all of us and him. He still is single, never been married, and so much drama encompasses him still. So I can't say how I'd feel if he got married, stayed faithful to his wife, and lived happily ever after. Maybe I do take a little bit comfort in that he can't find with anyone what he couldn't find with me. That's the little revenge demon in me piping in. I also think that has more to do with my son he left behind. It's easier to convince my boy that his dad not being a part of his life has nothing to do with him being worthy enough to have a dad.

I do wish him happiness though. Only because in this life, I think we all deserve that much.  

[Mazda]

Dreamgirl... .

Oh I take accountability alright, accountability for being a good person and trying my darnedest to be a good girlfriend and then fiancée.  Why did I stay?  To help him to alleviate his pain... . to stand by him and be loyal, like anyone should.  Why did I take the abuse? Well, when I was in the relationship, my response would have been, what abuse?  Oh, I deserved everything!  I was the crazy person with my DIAGNOSED and IN TREATMENT bipolar.  Why didn't I call the police when he punched me? Oh right, because he knew someone who had bipolar who called the police so I must've crazy bipolar if I did that too!  Why did I deserve to be raped? Oh right, I'm a loose woman! Of course! Only been with guys I have been in love with but of course that makes me amoral!  And oh, I called his best friend when he was treating me in an unacceptable manner so that he could talk thim... . oh my oh my... . I involved others in our problems!  I'm such a bad person for doing that!

The problem is, when you are told something over and over with such conviction, you start to believe it.  You believe the twisted logic that is thrown at you constantly, those underhand comments and undermining words penetrate deep into you, while the push pull confuses you to the point of breaking.  And then, wham! Mr perfect is back again, just as you were about to run away! Oh hell, lure me back in.  What's that? Oh I'm the most amazing thing to have ever existed?  You never thought you would find love like ours? Oh take me now! Wham! More confusion!

So yeah, abuse? What abuse? It was only until a stranger pointed out that what she witnessed was abuse that my eyes were opened.  I mean, before that, everything he said had a backup argument.  I'm an embarrassment to my parents? Well, I argue with my mother so I must be!

I seriously dislike the whole argument of having issues yourself.  What kept us in these relationships was compassion, love, sympathy, empathy, loyalty.  All good things to have.  For me and most others, we didn't realise it was abuse and when we did, the above GOOD qualities kicked in.  I mean, who on this board went into this relationship saying they wanted to be abused?

As for volunteers and not victim.  Oh I voluntarily went into this relationship for sure... . I voluntarily fell in love with the man of my dreams.  But I didn't volunteer to be played with, toyed, used and abused and so confused that I didn't even realise it.  I didn't volunteer to be part of the BPD game, I was duped into playing and I was a victim while I was in it.

Yes, I need to change some things.  I learnt a lot.  Mainly, I'm a great person to be in a relationship with.  That loyalty and love and all that good stuff will make me an amazing partner.  What I need to change is make sure the guy who is the recipient is worthy of it.

[charred]

Mazda...

We all seriously dislike the argument of having issues ourselves... . I fought the idea for about 50 years. Was sure that having a malignant NPD dad and what I now know was a waif BPD mom... . had no real effect on me.  Wish it were true but it isn't.

When you are a baby up to maybe 5 yrs old... what you experience in your family is what you consider "love"... and you respond to people that act like your folks. Its something I really wish wasn't true... but it is. My pwBPD didn't seem at all like my mother... she was expressive, passionate, effervescent even. However it turned out she was BPD... just acting out instead of acting in.

Read a book called "Healing Developmental Trauma"... and hated it... kind of turned my stomach almost. It was so true it made me cringe... . explained how attachment works in kids, and how it can go wrong... and when it does... how ego defenses work to define the personality. Well... when you list out all the traits in yourself you are most proud of... . then read about how they tend to be false compensations for your shortcomings... it is hard to accept.

The idea that we are perfectly fine and the pwBPD was all the problem is easy to accept... . but really healthy people... . tend to be with other really healthy people... and they tend to heed the   that we didn't from our pwBPD. What kind of people make you feel strong sparks of attraction? If it is someone with a disorder (BPD)... . and you have a FOO with issues, like most the people I know do... then facing up to the possibility of having issues yourself... may take more courage than you have left after the BPD r/s.

Most of us that have been in the intense badness of a BPD r/s... . didn't quietly take 100% of the abuse ... . we actively participated in the arguments, we responded with JADEs to the barbs and attacks... and we had to consider at times if we were the disordered one in the r/s. Chances are we were 1/2 of the r/s... and part of the problem.  I took a bunch of personality and psych tests... and didn't test as disordered... however on the schema inventories... had a lot of little quirks/fleas/baggage... . whatever you want to call it. If you piled it all up I suspect it is close enough to a disorder to make my pwBPD a likely partner.  My issues are smaller, easier to address, I own them and am working on them... my pwBPD... . never has and probably never will.

You are fighting a very uphill losing battle trying to change your partner... . its tough enough to work on your own issues... but it takes some guts and insight to realize you have issues.

[Conundrum]

Also,  I love how sympathy is evoked by saying they are emotionally childlike... . especially the high functioners.  My ex was a high functioner, and he knew how to behave and treat people, as he did that with others.  When I saw him verbally abuse me and then turn around and talk to the people on the next table as if we were a happily engaged couple I saw how calculated it all was.  When he would verbally abuse me in our language on the phone and break off to greet this colleagues as if he was having a normal conversation I saw how calculated the abuse was.  He was aware, he chose to speak to me that way.  Triggered or not, they know what is acceptable and what is not when they are high functioning.  So no, sorry, he is not childlike.  He is just a douchebag.

That behavior is boundary busting. It's trampling over boundaries that define working relationships--acting out. In a functional relationship with a pwBPD, the disordered person chooses to adhere to boundaries. They're relatively consistent--though curing the disorder, as in a panacea that permanently engineers an ordered personality remains highly unlikely.

Maladaptive coping tools, fill needs that soothe pain. Cognizance about those needs exist within the pwBPD, shame too. Those poor coping tools cause nons a great deal of heartache--though the dilemma remains that there aren't a great many healthy coping tools which provide them with the same self-soothing rush, excitement, drama and validation that the maladaptive ones do. They wind up censoring those needs by closeting them away, thereby managing impulses to act out--or they don't.

The quandary when in a relationship with a pwBPD is how to develop a symbiotic beneficial arrangement that replicates fulfilling their esoteric needs in a healthy manner, while still (for the non) having their needs met too. It's an arcane process fraught with pitfalls. For those pwBPD who are able to maintain boundaries within a relationship, they often remain in a detached protector mode--which basically is the equivalent of a ticking time-bomb--they explode, relapse via acting out. People with BPD obviously aren't ideal candidates to expect perfect consistent boundaries from. When we state "cure," that perhaps is a grandiose wish, but practically speaking maybe we mean "successful relationship." IMO, the best one can hope for are long periods of stability with intermittent relapses. Therefore  (I truly wish it was otherwise for those married w children), IMO pwBPD are not sound investments for marriage and children. 

[DreamGirl]

Mazda,

I wouldn't reduce anyone's experience of what they've been through... . and you've been thru a lot.  :'(

For the lot of us, there is a certain kind of psychological misfire that keeps us in these relationships. For me, my NPD traited father (and my passive mother) modeled what a relationship was supposed to look like. My own boundaries being shattered in childhood also played a pretty big part. My boundaries were awful for a really long time because well, I didn't have a good model or think I was allowed to even have them. I still struggle and it's still a battle of what is OK and what is not OK.

So when I say accountability, it isn't about denying what happened to me (my own victimization), it's my seeing how I participated, even if unknowingly at the time, and learning to move forward. Make a change. Find peace. Value myself more. Have better boundaries.  

That's kinda what it sounds like what you're doing when you say What I need to change is make sure the guy who is the recipient is worthy of it.

You didn't deserve it, no.

Neither did I. None of us do. From a more clinical standpoint, for me, it just helped knowing that it kinda made sense that I chose someone that didn't have the capability to love me in an unselfish way.  

It's all I knew.

[Mazda]

Thanks charred and conundrum and dream girl,

I am in a seriously angry venting mode today so ugh... . can't find a good thing to say about my ex.

Absolutely issues with me in terms of why I didn't even acknowledge the red flags... . it wasn't that I didn't see them, or ignored them, I literally didn't even have them register on my radar because I was so blinded with love!  I have a good upbringing with great parents, but I unfortunately met a very smart, extremely manipulative high functioning who knocked me for six.  In all my treatment and group therapy for bipolar in all these years, I never knew that such a sadistic illness existed.  In my naïveté, I just didn't know a person could treat another person this way.  I guess in a way I was lucky that i have only come across decent people.

Well, I'm wiser now.  I've worked with my therapist to untangle what was me, what was him and what was fleas.  I've educated myself as to what abuse is and I will never again be oblivious to it.  And I have worked on my image of what love really is.  Mutual care, respect, trust, compromise, validation and acceptance.  No more fairytales and Prince Charming fighting through to solve all my problems, kiss me and live happily ever after.  No no, my happily ever after will come from within.  His favourite fairytale was beauty and the beast... . how fitting!

[goldylamont]

This topic is discussed a lot on these boards, but an interesting thought occurred to me as I read this thread: I think people are curious about there being a cure for BPD for more than one reason.

There are many who seek an answer to this question in the hopes of hearing there IS a cure, so that they might fulfill their fantasy of someday working out a relationship with their BPDex.

There are others (I am lumped in here) who seek an answer to this question in the hopes of hearing there IS NOT a cure, so they (we) might feel secure in the fact that our BPDex's will continue their destructive patterns, thus validating that WE DID NOT CAUSE them to cheat, to lie, and whatever other hurtful things they have done to us.

There might be a rare third group, those who are TRULY detached, and who want the answer to this question to be "Yes", so that their BPDex's might have a hope of living a happy and fulfilled life with someone else.  I think the number of those in this group is TINY compared to the others, and I would seriously ask anyone who claims to belong here if they GENUINELY feel this way, or if saying it just makes them feel better about belonging in one of the aforementioned categories.

My ex was something of a rarity on these boards in that she was both diagnosed and had also undergone therapy, and was in therapy, when I was with her.  She was undergoing DBT, and she has at least a year of it under her belt (she is almost 23).  She still was dating 3 guys at once while with me (unbeknownst to me of course).  After me, she was dating two at once, and got engaged to one 2 months after meeting him.  They are now split and she is with someone new.

So, no, going to therapy doesn't ensure a fix.  As mentioned, the person has to really want it.  They really want it by hitting rock bottom.  My ex has hit what would be rock bottom for so many other people, and keeps trucking.  Who knows.

hit the nail on the head Octoberfest. i can't really add any more other than to say you put my feelings into words exactly.

regarding others posting about whether their BPDSO is conscious of what they are doing, or if they purposefully hurt others--for me i think it's pretty obvious that they know what they are doing some of the time. sure they may forget lies they told or tell so many they get mixed up in them. they also may do many things without meaning to hurt at all. but to me it's a bit naive to say that pwBPD *never* do things intentionally or purposefully; or that whenever they do something horrific to you it's b/c they feel abandoned. for me it was a great realization to understand how conscious my ex was of some of her behaviors as this validated that i was not crazy for feeling the way that i felt (manipulated/punished). if you feel like you were being treated a certain way then trust this feeling over any other explanation absolving the pwBPD from responsibility due to their disorder.

[ScotisGone74]

Honestly we could argue about the possibility of treatments, the success rates, the sometimes miracle BPD's that supposedly turn their lives around, the new technology and treatments that are said to be on the way, etc, etc... . but again, like some have said,   NONE of that means a freaking hill of beans IF the BPD refuses to go, which is unfortunately the case for the majority of BPD's. 

[PhoenixRising15]

I'd have to say I'm in the rare group of people who actually believe in a "cure" and I'm happy about it because I want my ex to be happy.

It comes from my own life experience.  I was raped repeatedly as a child and neglected in serious ways, emotionally, physically, and spiritually for the course of my life.  One of my ex girlfriends from college accused me of being BPD.  In truth, I don't know, but from a young age, I knew I was different.  I've always felt different, messed up in the head, and I still do.  I'm still trying to work it out.

What I can say of my experience:

Five years ago, I couldn't imagine admitting to anyone outside of my therapist that I was terribly abused.

Four years ago, I couldn't imagine admitting to my parents that I was abused.

Three years ago, I couldn't imagine confronting my parents about the total lack of truthfullness and accountability in my life.

Two years ago, I couldn't imagine being in a relationship that combined real physical and emotional intimacy.

One year ago, I stood and forgave my two primary abusers.

Now, I've done all these things, and much much more.  Granted, I still feel unlovable at my core, I am working on it every day... . And therein lies the "cure" in my eyes.

I can never change the fact that I was raped and neglected.  I can never get back my childhood. 

I can be aware of how those things impact me today. 

For instance, today at work, I asked my boss a question and I realized immediately after I sounded like a child asking his dad for validation.

I firmly believe that healing from trauma based mental illness is fully possible.  I have to.  My life depends on it. 

And I know, it is a life's work, but I get a little closer each day and I'm happy about that.

As to how this relates to my ex, I am an emotional sponge, and I looked right past all of her defense mechanisms to see the beautiful, scared little girl behind the big scary girl mask.  I guess its one of the advantages of realizing from childhood that literally anyone can hit you and to always be on the look out.  I can read people like text.

So when we broke up the first time, I sent her a letter telling her I hoped she figures her stuff out so that she can be happy with someone.  That she deserved happiness, and I was sad for her issues.  I never EVER expected to talk to her after that.  6 months later after much much more drama... . I hate how she treated me.  AND I still love her and want the best for her, even if that's not with me, as much as my pride and ego try to hate that statement. 

That's why I'm so sad.  That's the hardest part of letting go for me.  Letting go of the notion that this relationship disintegration was not all my fault.  That I didn't destroy it or self sabotage all by my self.  That our combined poor coping skills have left us at a virtual impasse.

I demand rigorous honesty, integrity, and accountability in myself and those I surround myself with.  I only ever wanted to be a support for her.  Part of me knew it wouldn't last because I just didn't think she was that interested in me from the get go.  Part of that is low self esteem.  Another part is reality.  I could tell she was bending and twisting herself, but I didnt know how or why.  So from the beginning, I was okay with the fact that she may not be "mine" and that my role in her life would likely be as a friend.

Looking back now, that may have been the single biggest trigger for her.  My detached love from her.  It was like she couldn't stand it.  How could I love her if I wasn't "one" with her?  How could I love her if I didn't own her and abuse her as others did?

Oh well.

The long and the short of it:

I believe there is not a cure but a treatment of a chronic disease.  It takes a certain type of person and combination of events to get a person started on that path.  I truly hope this is the case because I do love her and I want her to be happy even if it is with someone else.  I really wish it was me(we made a great team), but I just don't believe I'm that important.  There are too many fish in the sea for me to be the only "one" for her... . she's made that blatantly and painfully obvious.

Ramble Ramble... . Rabble Rabble.  

Hope you are all well.

Blessings.

[Mazda]

Question, your insight and accountability for what happened to you strongly suggest to me that you don't have BPD.  Just because a college ex says that, doesn't mean there is any truth in it.

Oh yes, they will go on to find the one who they are "one" with (oh boy did I hear that phrase a lot! ENMESHMENT).  I really, strongly suggest that you continue to educate yourself on BPD.

It in intrinsic, deeply engrained and for the most part, treatment resistant.

Why do you still care so much about your ex being better?  She abused you.  You don't deserve to be abused and you never did.  I think perhaps you should work on accepting that (I may be wrong and judging here, apologies but just the vibe I got from you).  Low self esteem is what feeds these people and keeps you stuck and ultimately, probably a big contributor to why you want this person to be happy.  After what they did to you, why are they entitled to happiness?  Again, I use the murderer example... . if someone was in jail for murder and showed no remorse (or fake remorse which is what I got to manipulate me and others) would you wish them a happy life?  I think something that needs to be understood is that a lot of prisoners have BPD.  It is an illness that makes them dangerous.  Sure, they are not all that bad, but they all have very damaging traits.  Unless they are taking ownership and in treatment for the carnage and destruction they cause others, they are selfish cowards that don't care about who they hurt to have their needs met.  

I have bipolar.  It's not hard to treat a mental illness.  You make an appointment and show up.  If you need medication, you pop a couple of pills, like millions of people do.  I fell for all of my exes excuses that it would be too painful etc etc... . from someone who has been undergoing therapy for 5 years, dealing with past trauma and abuse, it really isn't that hard.

Stop feeling sorry for your ex, educate yourself about BPD and read all the accounts of how our lives have been severely damaged by them indulging their selfish needs.  This community has so much collective pain and we are good people.  Focus that compassion on yourself as you are truly deserving of it.  

You cannot fix her.  That 6 months call? Recycling. 

I wanted to fix my ex.  I tried for 8 months to convince him to her professional help, even making appointments for him (which were never followed through).  After 8 months, guess what happened? He married my replacement.  Didn't even tell me, and the day before when I confronted him and asked him if he was getting married he didn't respond to that question (which was typical of him) and had the audacity to ask me if I still wanted him back!  Don't try helping them!  They are not worth it! They can only help themselves.  In the meantime help yourself and don't fall into the trap

I was stuck in for 8 months until I learnt a very painful lesson (yet again, thanks voldemort).

[Pearl55]

They are CRAZY, Not mentally ill. Lack of knowledge and bad advice trapped people with these crazy people!

[shellsh0cked]

In my case, I don't wish any ill will on her whatsoever... . regardless of how I feel about her atrocious behavior when it came to me.  I do feel sorry for the next dumb@ss that gets involved with her though... .

She is very sick, but I don't feel sorry for her either though because she chooses to not address it.  That's just sad to me... . sad that she is never going to be any better than she is now until she does.  :)o I lose sleep over it?  Sh!t no.  At this point it's no more sad than if it were a random person.  

The only thing I find myself left with is resentment... . some of it towards her, but a lot of it towards myself.  My behavior was atrocious too by just staying with her which was just further enabling her behavior... . Fighting fires that cannot be put out... . not by me, not by the guys she slept with... . not by her family.  No one.  But I certainly lit the fires because I was the trigger. Accountability?  That's where my accountability ended.  No one else on earth would have endured what I did to "make it work".  Continuing the toxic relationship when clearly I should have left her alone contributed to where I was... . but otherwise I don't feel any guilt for anything else... . because I never did the things she said I did.  Taking blame for bullsh!t is just that... . Bullsh!t

Do I wish her well in her life... . Of course I do.  I don't wish anything bad on anyone.  She has some really good qualities... . qualities that I loved in her.  If someone could succeed in making her happy and she could quit being so incredibly over the top insecure?  Great!  :)o I see it happening?  He11 no.  She's almost 40 years old.  She's pretty much the way she is now is the way she will probably be the rest of her life unless she accepts and gets some help.  Her past track record suggests that she will not do that.  I'm sure she will try to recycle me again in the future, but I would rather kill myself than live like that again.  No joke.  I'd rather be dead.  I had a nightmare once that I was back with her... . sleeping with her in the bed... . when I realized it was her it terrified me.  I woke up almost screaming... . in tears... . shaking.   I couldn't go back to sleep for about 6 hours I was so shook up... .   I know that meant that I was not just abused... . but traumatized by her for me to be that afraid of her.  So you can never go back to that!  There is no cure.  ... . and anyone that would go back to their BPD SO?  They are killing you... . so very slowly... .

   

[ogopogodude]

In my case, I don't wish any ill will on her whatsoever... . regardless of how I feel about her atrocious behavior when it came to me.  I do feel sorry for the next dumb@ss that gets involved with her though... .

She is very sick, but I don't feel sorry for her either though because she chooses to not address it.  That's just sad to me... . sad that she is never going to be any better than she is now until she does.  :)o I lose sleep over it?  Sh!t no.  At this point it's no more sad than if it were a random person.  

The only thing I find myself left with is resentment... . some of it towards her, but a lot of it towards myself.  My behavior was atrocious too by just staying with her which was just further enabling her behavior... . Fighting fires that cannot be put out... . not by me, not by the guys she slept with... . not by her family.  No one.  But I certainly lit the fires because I was the trigger. Accountability?  That's where my accountability ended.  No one else on earth would have endured what I did to "make it work".  Continuing the toxic relationship when clearly I should have left her alone contributed to where I was... . but otherwise I don't feel any guilt for anything else... . because I never did the things she said I did.  Taking blame for bullsh!t is just that... . Bullsh!t

Do I wish her well in her life... . Of course I do.  I don't wish anything bad on anyone.  She has some really good qualities... . qualities that I loved in her.  If someone could succeed in making her happy and she could quit being so incredibly over the top insecure?  Great!  :)o I see it happening?  He11 no.  She's almost 40 years old.  She's pretty much the way she is now is the way she will probably be the rest of her life unless she accepts and gets some help.  Her past track record suggests that she will not do that.  I'm sure she will try to recycle me again in the future, but I would rather kill myself than live like that again.  No joke.  I'd rather be dead.  I had a nightmare once that I was back with her... . sleeping with her in the bed... . when I realized it was her it terrified me.  I woke up almost screaming... . in tears... . shaking.   I couldn't go back to sleep for about 6 hours I was so shook up... .   I know that meant that I was not just abused... . but traumatized by her for me to be that afraid of her.  So you can never go back to that!  There is no cure.  ... . and anyone that would go back to their BPD SO?  They are killing you... . so very slowly... .

   

   Wow, ... . reading thru this, I thought that I wrote this, ... .

[halfnelson]

Hello there, well, I agree there is no 'cure', but with enough compassion and therapy, recovery can occur! The thing is, it's better to be single for that therapy, to really look into the issues.

Some people are very difficult to treat, however, and if you meet someone like that, don't give them a chance. Nobody needs a narcissist in their life.

Towards the end of my time in the therapeutic community, it was very hard being surrounded by people who could not even empathise- and seeing glee on someone's face because you're upset is the worst thing I've ever experienced! And I was meant to be on the same side! You could instantly tell which ones were going to do well from therapy, and the ones who were just going to shut down even more and set out to ruin anyone they deemed happy.

Sadly, I'm on here because I think my husband might not get help, but I know that he's pretty insightful so hold out hope!

Also, can I add that although Borderline Personality Disorder is a problem involving personality, there will be some great aspects to their personality that may be masked by all the crap. Alas, it doesn't mean that someone just isn't a hateful, nasty prick! You can blame some things on insecurity and instability, but do you really need someone who will set out to ruin you and laugh when they see you suffer?

[shellsh0cked]

She gets a rise out of hurting someone... . when she's being nasty and raging... . but feels sorry and ashamed once she realizes what she has done and come off of her rage.  I feel like she probably feels bad about a lot of the events in June 2012... . but her pride would never allow her to do that... . I would appreciate an apology... . but I will never get it.  That would require me talking to her... . reopening old wounds... probably hearing some more rhetoric garbage about me flirting with her mom or children or some other nonsense that I refuse to be punished for anymore... . and opening old closed wounds... and I sure don't want to do that.

[halfnelson]

Well, I have apologised to people I felt I'd hurt, but some of them didn't seem that bothered. You don't need an apology, because you can't even guarantee it's genuine.

I guess some counselling would be good so you don't get bitter and pass that onto the next relationship. Break the cycle, look for the signs (before you get married like I did!), and when you meet someone who makes you forget all of the crap from the past, well, you'll have forgotten it all. And you'll just have some wonderful knowledge of this disorder, but without having to live inside it anymore.

[Ironmanrises]

Again, without sounding mean or heartless, this very forum, with each one of us literally riddled with hurt, heartache, stress, etc, left in the wake of the aftermath of being with a pwBPD; exists because there is no cure to BPD where the person afflicted with such, presents themselves as a coherent and stable mono-personality to the non.

[charred]

People can overcome childhood abuse, do great things, live a full life... no doubt about it.

However the question was whether there is a cure for BPD... . a type of personality that is disordered... . and perhaps someday there will be, currently there isn't anything that is "a cure"... there are treatments like DBT... which most pwBPD are not in.

The question seems to be begging for hope that the pwBPD will get better... presumably in consideration of re-engaging with them.

If you want to go back, do so... but don't expect a cured personality any time soon with them.

I think an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure... . we know much of what causes BPD... and good parenting is the most positive change that would help prevent it (IMHO.)

[shellsh0cked]

Well, I have apologised to people I felt I'd hurt, but some of them didn't seem that bothered. You don't need an apology, because you can't even guarantee it's genuine.

I guess some counselling would be good so you don't get bitter and pass that onto the next relationship. Break the cycle, look for the signs (before you get married like I did!), and when you meet someone who makes you forget all of the crap from the past, well, you'll have forgotten it all. And you'll just have some wonderful knowledge of this disorder, but without having to live inside it anymore.

I'd apologize to her for staying involved with her when clearly all it served was to hurt her further.  But what she wants is an apology for a long list of accusations of things that never happened.  For that she will never get it, so she would probably be "fishing" for an apology by giving me one.  Well, I won't bite that hook because I know I did nothing of the sort, so she can carry the hatred to her grave.  Sad for her because it is all misplaced hatred due to her sickness.

I am already involved with a wonderful woman.  She is fantastic and everything that my old xgf was not.  She has been very huge in final steps in recovery.  I am actually not bitter towards women or future relationships.  I know that most women are NOT like my ex.  She once even tried to convince me that they were.  "You will find out... . most women are like me... . not other girls you have known like your ex-wife who is the exception".   She was wrong about that... . It was just a ploy to keep me from abandoning her.  I find that most women have lots of capacity to love, not be insanely jealous, or get their jollies by deliberately hurting you.  That there are ones that will keep their pants on too... . for everyone... . but me.   

I'm mostly blowing off steam here... . Listening to what others say about it and helping where I can... . because if anyone understands how this affects a person it is me... .

[halfnelson]

Sorry, I didn't read enough about your relationship to realise you'd met someone now!

Hope you didn't think I was saying you actually were bitter and should definitely seek help. It's ok to be angry at people who waste your precious time.

[oblivian2013]

Marsha Linehan, the creator of DBT, the most effective treatment for managing BPD, had BPD herself. Also AJ Mahari, author of several books on the subject for nons and PDs alike, recovered from BPD. She has several excellent videos on youtube I recommend for understanding the subject better. I personally believe it is possible, but until PDs recover from their delial, there is little hope. Also their psychiatrists and clinicians need to be honest and less hesitant to make the diagnosis. Until they do, everyone suffers. And I hold them largely responsible for the broken r/s and families left behind.

[Findingmysong723]

Also AJ Mahari, author of several books on the subject for nons and PDs alike, recovered from BPD. She has several excellent videos on youtube I recommend for understanding the subject better. I personally believe it is possible, but until PDs recover from their delial, there is little hope.

I enjoy AJ Mahari posts, she is very informative and understands Nons because she was in a relationship with someone that was BPD and then of course she had BPD so can express the feelings she had and what her behavior was like and why!I enjoy reading both sides, it helped me to understand the situation I was in!

[DivorcedNon]

Most of us are familiar with these three names: Marsha Linehan, AJ Mahari and Tami Green. These very rare exceptions just prove the rule: BPD is not curable!

[Pearl55]

Recovery is not possible. Two people you just mentioned so they weren't full blown borderlines if they truly recovered.

[goldylamont]

here's the thing--i'm not trusting anything that a pwBPD says about their "recovery" because it's impossible to know if they are flat out lying about it. we can all testify that a pwBPD can emotionally crush someone, then lie about it or deny that it happened altogether. also, they lie to therapists often so i am skeptical about some things that therapist say. this behavior is just part of the disorder.  i would trust more the words of a therapist of a non and not the pwBPD saying that the BPD was recovered.

also, regarding what Therapists are saying about BPD being cured and what-not. i believe there are studies that show that therapy can help reduce certain behaviors like self-harm, drug use, suicidal tendencies and the like--but none of these studies say anything at all about interpersonal relationships. it's important to note this.

i fully believe the overall quality of life of a pwBPD can be helped with therapy but i'm doubtful of how much this actually affects romantic relationships. where are the studies of physically/emotionally abusive people who aren't abusive after therapy? how can you quantify whether the pwBPD isn't cheating after therapy? or isn't devaluing their ex's or lying after therapy? i *do* think this is possible, however i haven't seen much info specific to romantic relationships.

i should point out that i read some AJ Mahari and of all the people claiming a full recovery from BPD i believe her. but this is because she owns a lot of the things that i experienced from my ex. she wrote a book on Revenge and Punishment from BPDs and this shows me that she is taking responsibility and has an awareness of some things she may have done.

Tami Greene? I don't know--I don't doubt for a second that she's smart and an expert on the subject; but some of the things she's said is kind of indicative that her interpersonal relationships perhaps still suffer a bit. I read on her site how she was so proud of being more "passionate" than nons--and i just think this is a bunch of malarky. you can be extremely passionate and exciting as a person and you *don't* have to have a PD in order to do so. sure i could go back to one of my ex's where there is still mutual feelings and tell her all the sudden that she's the love of my life and that i want to be with her forever and shower her with affection; but then if a few days/weeks later i go in the opposite direction and tell her she's boring/worthless/clingy and was seeing someone else when i told her all this stuff, this doesn't make me passionate. it just makes me a liar.

i love hearing success stories about pwBPD being helped, but i look at things with a skeptical eye. I want to believe Tami Greene is fully recovered, but honestly i won't believe it until i hear testimony from her last 3 ex's to corroborate her statements. and i stand by this standard myself--you can ask all my exes of my integrity and none of them (other than xBPD) will say that i was abusive. not so for my xBPD.

again i get a good feeling from AJ Mahari though. appreciative of her insights and hopeful she will accomplish lots of good.

[halfnelson]

Definitely be skeptical of so-called 'experts'. We're still learning about medical disorders every day and even I don't trust these 'qualified BPD sufferers'.

Before I met my husband, I was seen by my docs as some sort of 'success' for the disorder and am still called in as an advisor to my mental health team, but I could never claim to know the damnedest thing when I can't even handle the man I am legally bound to spend eternity with!

I see BPD in the same vain as the psychopathic spectrum- and probably other personality disorders. You have some who are incredibly charming and manipulative with no regards to other's feelings, then some have a violent element, and then they go all the way up to being serial killers.

Simplistic, but something I noticed when I was in therapy with other borderlines was that there were so many different ways it showed, and so I guess there will be some who can cope in the real world and some who just should be locked away. I also know people who are supposedly not diagnosed at all, and yet they clearly suffer from it.

In the TC, I met so many seemingly successful men and women with degrees and careers and I couldn't figure out why they were in there at all, then there were the ones who were so obviously disturbed they had no idea why they harmed themselves in such horrific ways.

When I started that therapy, I had a fairly run-of-the-mill relationship, didn't notice how controlled I was by him (he didn't beat or rape me so I assumed he was good for me), my issues just seemed to be PTSD... . until he broke up with me! Then it was obvious I was not the full ticket because it felt like my whole world had collapsed and nothing was worth living for (thank goodness I stuck around to see my bank balance and food cupboards no longer rinsed!).

I suspect these experts would definitely still have some issues if they truly had BPD, and they can only speak from their own experiences but it would be hard to lie about being better though, unless they were lying to themselves, and surrounded by people who agreed with them. I find it a bit arrogant to claim to be an expert like that. None of these women seem like the type of person I'd ever listen to.

For me, the therapy I have had helped me notice when I was unstable, helped break my unhelpful cycles, and really, it never goes away because it's part of your core personality, but it lessens if you want it to.

[Ironmanrises]

also, regarding what Therapists are saying about BPD being cured and what-not. i believe there are studies that show that therapy can help reduce certain behaviors like self-harm, drug use, suicidal tendencies and the like--but none of these studies say anything at all about interpersonal relationships. it's important to note this.

Well put Goldylamont. It is one of those things that is not spoken about.

[fromheeltoheal]

I'd want to see genuine humility, empathy, concern for others, maybe some self effacing humor, some class and politeness, honest appreciation, emotional availability and vulnerability, you know, real human, certainly none of which I got from my ex. And sure, they could lie, but I wasn't born yesterday, and I'd need to see those things consistently over time. Sure, I ignored the fact I wasn't seeing those things in my ex, silly me, but fool me once silly borderline, shame on you, literally, fool me twice, shame on me.

[arn131arn]

My P told me today, he has treated many BPD/NPD/HPD and their nons. I found out about him bc he may be the best person available in my area. He said they are capable but it takes a really really loong time. He said it isn't even gauranteed that afterwards they can have a healthy RS. He said I needed to move on. At this point she is very dangerous to me. She wants to continue to hurt me even when we are NOT together. Than he asked me what does that say about her? What does that say about you? Godd**n, that one stung... .

[fromheeltoheal]

My P told me today, he has treated many BPD/NPD/HPD and their nons. I found out about him bc he may be the best person available in my area. He said they are capable but it takes a really really loong time. He said it isn't even gauranteed that afterwards they can have a healthy RS. He said I needed to move on. At this point she is very dangerous to me. She wants to continue to hurt me even when we are NOT together. Than he asked me what does that say about her? What does that say about you? Godd**n, that one stung... .

Great question! Did you get beyond the sting and start digging?

[arn131arn]

LOL.  I did learn allot today.

I learned that that home I bought my family didn't need 80-100k worth of remodels on it.  I learned that I thought it needed it to fullfill her.  That that fullfillment of her was a fullfillment of me.  That my dependence on her was just as sick as her behavior towards me.  

I learned that when I first saw her, my immediate thought was I want to have sex with her, she is exotic, an absolute beauty.  I learned that my replacement is probably thinking or thought the same as me; so how can I judge him?  What did she do to my ego?  What did she do to my pride?  My self-esteem? You know, Heel, she did the same goddamn thing for me that alcohol has always done.  She made me bigger, stronger, faster, she gave me courage, I could walk across that dance floor and ask that girl to dance.  She also gave me the same consequences as alcohol... .

My P doesn't pull punches.  I like and get along great with people like that.  It's that uncomfortable feeling that you have to sit in a while... . that uncomfortable feeling is growth.  To a BPD that uncomfortable feeling sets off neuron after neuron of complete rage, anger, and dyregulation.  We nons, can see/tell when growth occurs.  They never will.

Thanks, for asking that question again, Heel.  It should be a daily reminder about myself, and who I want to be.  For the first time in my life, I can tell I'm taking care of me... .

Arn

[fromheeltoheal]

LOL.  I did learn allot today.

I learned that that home I bought my family didn't need 80-100k worth of remodels on it.  I learned that I thought it needed it to fullfill her.  That that fullfillment of her was a fullfillment of me.  That my dependence on her was just as sick as her behavior towards me.  

I learned that when I first saw her, my immediate thought was I want to have sex with her, she is exotic, an absolute beauty.  I learned that my replacement is probably thinking or thought the same as me; so how can I judge him?  What did she do to my ego?  What did she do to my pride?  My self-esteem? You know, Heel, she did the same goddamn thing for me that alcohol has always done.  She made me bigger, stronger, faster, she gave me courage, I could walk across that dance floor and ask that girl to dance.  She also gave me the same consequences as alcohol... .

My P doesn't pull punches.  I like and get along great with people like that.  It's that uncomfortable feeling that you have to sit in a while... . that uncomfortable feeling is growth.  To a BPD that uncomfortable feeling sets off neuron after neuron of complete rage, anger, and dyregulation.  We nons, can see/tell when growth occurs.  They never will.

Thanks, for asking that question again, Heel.  It should be a daily reminder about myself, and who I want to be.  For the first time in my life, I can tell I'm taking care of me... .

Arn

You've come a long, long way in a month my friend, and good for you!

[PhoenixRising15]

@Mazda,

Reading your words, I make up the story that you are still feeling very hurt by what your ex did to you.  Apologies for not reading more of your posts to know the full background.  I've been trying to stay away from these forums and move on with my life, and only come back to check in once in a while.

However, I too was very hurt.  It wasn't just one six month call.  You can check my posts if you like, but I haven't even put it all in there. But I've been there.  Not as bad as some.  Worse than others.

I know the relationship was abusive.  I KNOW I've got ton's of issues to work on, and I'm digging deeper and faster than ever to uncover them.

Why do I still care about my ex so much?  Would I wish a remorse-less murderer happiness?

Have you ever heard the phrase, "Hurt people hurt people"?

For me not to care, would that not make me just as bad as any of my abusers?

You are correct.  I give away what I most want in the world, because I know the cost all too well of not having it.  

I know what it's like to be neglected and abandoned and have people not care about you.  

I know what it's like to walk around feeling like everyone is talking about you and how hitty you are.  

I told myself that story for 20 years because I was abused.  

So I try to make my world a place where that doesn't happen in my surroundings by offering compassion even to those who may seem unworthy of it to others.  I previously had no boundaries or even concept of boundaries, so now, every day, I do turn that compassion more towards myself.  I hope by doing so, I will be able to offer more to others.

It doesn't cost me anything to wish her well (once I'm far enough along in my healing to move beyond being wounded.  If I were to try to consider her feelings right now, I'd just be hindering my own healing).

It does cost me something to hate her or hold on to my anger.  It costs me peace of mind.  Again, my anger has its place in my healing.  My anger currently serves to protect me from being hurt.  Once I've delved deep enough into my core issues to discover what my boundaries are and to hold strong to them, my anger serves no purpose other than to keep me attached to her, and worse yet, in a negative way.

I'm not saying that a relationship with her would be healthy for me right now.  I'm at least that far along in my healing.

Also, it serves me to wish her well (again, at the appropriate place in my healing):

I am able to validate myself that I am not the hateful, spiteful, terrible, unlovable, worthless person that I think I am because I am able to be happy for someone even if they hurt me.  Some call this self righteous. Perhaps my self-esteem is just that low that I need to project my love of self onto others in order to own it in myself.  

I am able to remember with joy the pleasant moments we had together.  Were they "real"?  Well, IMHO, they were as real for me as the pain is.  If I try to deny the joy I felt, that would be to deny the pain as well.  Was there a lot of lying and cheating on her side?  Yes.  Is that my responsibility? Nope.  I was as honest as I could possibly be.  As a matter of fact, she helped me be more honest.  As I demanded more honesty from her, she called me out on bits of dishonesty that I had when I was trying to cut her some slack.

I don't think I can fix her. As a matter of fact, I don't think there is anything to be fixed.  She is exactly as she must be.  She has an important and special place in this universe just like you and I.  Who knows?  Maybe one of our exes will cure the disease that will save one of our children, or our own life one day.

There are things I don't like (and I'm pretty sure she doesn't like) about how she treated me.  I don't think she and I are in a place to have any sort of relationship.  I'm still reeling from the trauma, and she has not delved into her issues to make for productive intimacy (to my knowledge).  I have a choice to not be in a relationship with her and to not have contact with her.  I didn't have those choices as a small child, but now, as an adult, I do, and it's time for me to take responsibility.

Does that make more sense?

[Mazda]

Hi questioning,

Yes, it does.  I was getting to that point too, trying to convince him to get help before he hurts someone else.  He was already wooing my replacement and now wife.  I have no sympathy for him and my anger is more intense than any anger I have ever felt.  I literally want to watch his life fall to pieces, and that's not something I would ever say about anyone.

Is the anger detrimental? Absolutely.  I just don't know how to let it go though. 

[fromheeltoheal]

Hi questioning,

Yes, it does.  I was getting to that point too, trying to convince him to get help before he hurts someone else.  He was already wooing my replacement and now wife.  I have no sympathy for him and my anger is more intense than any anger I have ever felt.  I literally want to watch his life fall to pieces, and that's not something I would ever say about anyone.

Is the anger detrimental? Absolutely.  I just don't know how to let it go though.  

I too was very angry, absolute rage, for a solid 6 or 8 months, and it spilled over beyond her to just about everything. If the wrong person had said the wrong thing during that time I would have gone to jail for sure.

At first I focused on how anger is almost always a secondary emotion, and there's something, some other feeling under it, which was true and it was hurt, but it was more than that and I couldn't figure it out.  Then I focused on how anger is a natural reaction to abuse and actually my anger had saved me, also true, but that seemed sort of open ended.

What I finally learned and accepted was anger is one of the 5 stages of grief, something that needed to be worked through and processed, no way around it.  After the anger waned I got depressed and physically sick for a couple of months, I had skipped the bargaining stage of grief, or maybe I did them out of order and didn't realize I was bargaining when I was.  In any case the depression was a relief from the anger at first, but I grew to believe I would be stuck there, not a happy place either.

But lately I feel like I'm accepting, the final stage; it has taken a year and a half. I now see her as a sick person and not a bad one, I've accepted that it is what it is, I focus mostly on the future, I've made some drastic changes as part of the growth, and I'm actually happy and content in spurts and even excited about my future.

So Mazda maybe that's how to let it go, let it pass, which it will as you work through those stages?

[shellsh0cked]

Sorry, I didn't read enough about your relationship to realise you'd met someone now!

Hope you didn't think I was saying you actually were bitter and should definitely seek help. It's ok to be angry at people who waste your precious time.

Nah... . you gotta get up pretty doggone early in the morning to offend me!    

Yep... . resentment... . letting go and the board helps, but I share mostly to identify with the others on the board.  If they are fresh leaving their BPD, I know how traumatized a person can be.  We have all been there.

[PhoenixRising15]

@Mazda,

I'm sad to hear you're in that place.  I'm happy to hear you are admitting it.

It was really, really hard for me to get angry at her.  I mean, don't get me wrong, there were moments when I wished terrible things on her.  And then I'd remember how hurt and broken she really was and I'd start feeling bad for wishing bad things on her.  My mind would go back and forth, torturing myself.

But then I just felt it and expressed it.  It was a rage that I had not experienced since childhood.  It was a rage of being abandoned yet again by someone who was "supposed" to be there for me.  It lit me up.  I punched bags, walls, pillows, cried, cursed God. I kept reading here and on addiction forums etc etc searching for "an answer". 

But the answer was truly there the entire time within myself.   

I had never gotten to that level of anger before.  When I was a child, I couldn't.  As I grew up, I acted in, as an anxiety ridden perfectionist.  I never let it out.  I never truly felt how angry I was at not having the mother I wanted.  Instead I had a narcissist.  So I'd been getting trained to be subordinate and take care of other's needs before my own always.  I needed Daisy's help to see that and break they cycle of abuse and self-abuse.

So I personally honor your anger and your ability to feel it.

Be well.  I'm going to disappear for a while.

[charred]

I feel like I get a little pissy sometimes, but I haven't been able to just let it out and be angry for so long I don't know that I still can. Read Brene Brown's books and I think she is right that you can't disconnect from selected emotions... . when you suppress anger, other emotions get suppressed as well. Used to think I was just a steady in the storm person, unflappable... but its really heavily muted emotions. I don't get real mad, or happy... . its always constrained. Dating my pwBPD... . made things far worse... . felt ecstatic... and down real low and anger and other emotions I had long suppressed... and it all made me feel like I was alive... . just kind of living in hell.

My work requires me to be PC to such a degree that I spend much of my time not saying what is on my mind at work... and it leads to feeling inauthentic which makes me want to avoid making real friends at work... don't want to risk my income over trusting someone new with work torpedo like information.

The weirdest thing with the BPD r/s has been the tie back to early childhood... traumas that I haven't dealt with in 40+ yrs bit me in the butt, I felt serene for a while like I never did as a kid... like the world was right finally, and I was playing and silly and regressed with my pwBPD... it just would turn ugly over petty stuff.

For a while I was really resentful of my pwBPD... thought she had derailed my life when I was in my early 20's, then came back and caused a divorce while I was in my late 40's... . and saw her as root of my problem. I know now that the issues were from my FOO from early childhood onward... . and that is what made me a potential partner for a pwBPD.

I don't know what my personality is officially, had tests and I wasn't NPD... . looked at what is in DBT and suspect it would be helpful to me. Since I am divorced, and no longer with my pwBPD... had thought of dating, sleeping around, having fun, dropping the "responsible one"... role I have had since I was a little kid being parentified... but the same observation about this thread "no cure for BPD"... seems to apply to non-BPD, but still not securely attached either... . I can see myself meeting people, having closer friends than I do, and doing a bit more fun stuff... but my personality is very set... it changed when I was younger... but after 50... how much curing are we still going to be able to get?

Hope cures exist for old developmental trauma... . but I think it is "treatments that might help some"... not cures.

[bpdspell]

I won't lie. There were times when I wished my ex would fall down a flight of stairs and then get run over by a public bus because my ex physically assaulted me and did a nasty smear campaign on my name that left me reeling in shame. Not all BPD's are the same but mine was certainly sadistic and punishing.

But I'm right there with Questioning Faith. Under all of that rage was a deeply saddened, abandoned, rejected and emotionally neglected little girl who's mother was a flat out narcissist so when the ex behaved in the same manner I totally lost it. It is the Grace of God that I'm truly here; alive and well.

My rage was very comforting for the first year after the breakup but then I started having panic attacks and having really ___ty days of numb emptiness that seemed to never go away. In spite of weekly therapy I was surely depressed because lots of childhood stuff was coming up and I had to face it square in the eye and I really didn't want to have to drudge up old ___.  But the more I held my emotion and pains in the more I sufferered until one day I simple decided to give myself permission to emotionally collapse.

Being the tough girl with teflon skin wears thin when you're reeling in the aftermath of a borderline breakup. I took a year but grief finally overcame me and I bawled for days and days until I couldn't breathe and balled some more. There are days when I still cry from the pain that childhood has caused by I am empowered and healing. It's a journey and it has be snails pace slow but I'm not where I used to be.

Spell