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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: no cure for BPD  (Read 4390 times)
goldylamont
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« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2014, 06:51:09 PM »

here's the thing--i'm not trusting anything that a pwBPD says about their "recovery" because it's impossible to know if they are flat out lying about it. we can all testify that a pwBPD can emotionally crush someone, then lie about it or deny that it happened altogether. also, they lie to therapists often so i am skeptical about some things that therapist say. this behavior is just part of the disorder.  i would trust more the words of a therapist of a non and not the pwBPD saying that the BPD was recovered.

also, regarding what Therapists are saying about BPD being cured and what-not. i believe there are studies that show that therapy can help reduce certain behaviors like self-harm, drug use, suicidal tendencies and the like--but none of these studies say anything at all about interpersonal relationships. it's important to note this.

i fully believe the overall quality of life of a pwBPD can be helped with therapy but i'm doubtful of how much this actually affects romantic relationships. where are the studies of physically/emotionally abusive people who aren't abusive after therapy? how can you quantify whether the pwBPD isn't cheating after therapy? or isn't devaluing their ex's or lying after therapy? i *do* think this is possible, however i haven't seen much info specific to romantic relationships.

i should point out that i read some AJ Mahari and of all the people claiming a full recovery from BPD i believe her. but this is because she owns a lot of the things that i experienced from my ex. she wrote a book on Revenge and Punishment from BPDs and this shows me that she is taking responsibility and has an awareness of some things she may have done.

Tami Greene? I don't know--I don't doubt for a second that she's smart and an expert on the subject; but some of the things she's said is kind of indicative that her interpersonal relationships perhaps still suffer a bit. I read on her site how she was so proud of being more "passionate" than nons--and i just think this is a bunch of malarky. you can be extremely passionate and exciting as a person and you *don't* have to have a PD in order to do so. sure i could go back to one of my ex's where there is still mutual feelings and tell her all the sudden that she's the love of my life and that i want to be with her forever and shower her with affection; but then if a few days/weeks later i go in the opposite direction and tell her she's boring/worthless/clingy and was seeing someone else when i told her all this stuff, this doesn't make me passionate. it just makes me a liar.

i love hearing success stories about pwBPD being helped, but i look at things with a skeptical eye. I want to believe Tami Greene is fully recovered, but honestly i won't believe it until i hear testimony from her last 3 ex's to corroborate her statements. and i stand by this standard myself--you can ask all my exes of my integrity and none of them (other than xBPD) will say that i was abusive. not so for my xBPD.

again i get a good feeling from AJ Mahari though. appreciative of her insights and hopeful she will accomplish lots of good.
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halfnelson

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« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2014, 09:12:33 PM »

Definitely be skeptical of so-called 'experts'. We're still learning about medical disorders every day and even I don't trust these 'qualified BPD sufferers'.

Before I met my husband, I was seen by my docs as some sort of 'success' for the disorder and am still called in as an advisor to my mental health team, but I could never claim to know the damnedest thing when I can't even handle the man I am legally bound to spend eternity with!

I see BPD in the same vain as the psychopathic spectrum- and probably other personality disorders. You have some who are incredibly charming and manipulative with no regards to other's feelings, then some have a violent element, and then they go all the way up to being serial killers.

Simplistic, but something I noticed when I was in therapy with other borderlines was that there were so many different ways it showed, and so I guess there will be some who can cope in the real world and some who just should be locked away. I also know people who are supposedly not diagnosed at all, and yet they clearly suffer from it.

In the TC, I met so many seemingly successful men and women with degrees and careers and I couldn't figure out why they were in there at all, then there were the ones who were so obviously disturbed they had no idea why they harmed themselves in such horrific ways.

When I started that therapy, I had a fairly run-of-the-mill relationship, didn't notice how controlled I was by him (he didn't beat or rape me so I assumed he was good for me), my issues just seemed to be PTSD... . until he broke up with me! Then it was obvious I was not the full ticket because it felt like my whole world had collapsed and nothing was worth living for (thank goodness I stuck around to see my bank balance and food cupboards no longer rinsed!).

I suspect these experts would definitely still have some issues if they truly had BPD, and they can only speak from their own experiences but it would be hard to lie about being better though, unless they were lying to themselves, and surrounded by people who agreed with them. I find it a bit arrogant to claim to be an expert like that. None of these women seem like the type of person I'd ever listen to.

For me, the therapy I have had helped me notice when I was unstable, helped break my unhelpful cycles, and really, it never goes away because it's part of your core personality, but it lessens if you want it to.
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Ironmanrises
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« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2014, 10:19:54 PM »

also, regarding what Therapists are saying about BPD being cured and what-not. i believe there are studies that show that therapy can help reduce certain behaviors like self-harm, drug use, suicidal tendencies and the like--but none of these studies say anything at all about interpersonal relationships. it's important to note this.

Well put Goldylamont. It is one of those things that is not spoken about.
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fromheeltoheal
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« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2014, 10:53:14 PM »

I'd want to see genuine humility, empathy, concern for others, maybe some self effacing humor, some class and politeness, honest appreciation, emotional availability and vulnerability, you know, real human, certainly none of which I got from my ex. And sure, they could lie, but I wasn't born yesterday, and I'd need to see those things consistently over time. Sure, I ignored the fact I wasn't seeing those things in my ex, silly me, but fool me once silly borderline, shame on you, literally, fool me twice, shame on me.
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arn131arn
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« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2014, 11:14:24 PM »

My P told me today, he has treated many BPD/NPD/HPD and their nons. I found out about him bc he may be the best person available in my area. He said they are capable but it takes a really really loong time. He said it isn't even gauranteed that afterwards they can have a healthy RS. He said I needed to move on. At this point she is very dangerous to me. She wants to continue to hurt me even when we are NOT together. Than he asked me what does that say about her? What does that say about you? Godd**n, that one stung... .

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fromheeltoheal
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« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2014, 11:21:15 PM »

My P told me today, he has treated many BPD/NPD/HPD and their nons. I found out about him bc he may be the best person available in my area. He said they are capable but it takes a really really loong time. He said it isn't even gauranteed that afterwards they can have a healthy RS. He said I needed to move on. At this point she is very dangerous to me. She wants to continue to hurt me even when we are NOT together. Than he asked me what does that say about her? What does that say about you? Godd**n, that one stung... .

Great question! Did you get beyond the sting and start digging?
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arn131arn
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« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2014, 11:44:42 PM »

LOL.  I did learn allot today.

I learned that that home I bought my family didn't need 80-100k worth of remodels on it.  I learned that I thought it needed it to fullfill her.  That that fullfillment of her was a fullfillment of me.  That my dependence on her was just as sick as her behavior towards me.  

I learned that when I first saw her, my immediate thought was I want to have sex with her, she is exotic, an absolute beauty.  I learned that my replacement is probably thinking or thought the same as me; so how can I judge him?  What did she do to my ego?  What did she do to my pride?  My self-esteem? You know, Heel, she did the same goddamn thing for me that alcohol has always done.  She made me bigger, stronger, faster, she gave me courage, I could walk across that dance floor and ask that girl to dance.  She also gave me the same consequences as alcohol... .

My P doesn't pull punches.  I like and get along great with people like that.  It's that uncomfortable feeling that you have to sit in a while... . that uncomfortable feeling is growth.  To a BPD that uncomfortable feeling sets off neuron after neuron of complete rage, anger, and dyregulation.  We nons, can see/tell when growth occurs.  They never will.

Thanks, for asking that question again, Heel.  It should be a daily reminder about myself, and who I want to be.  For the first time in my life, I can tell I'm taking care of me... .

Arn

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fromheeltoheal
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« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2014, 11:51:25 PM »

LOL.  I did learn allot today.

I learned that that home I bought my family didn't need 80-100k worth of remodels on it.  I learned that I thought it needed it to fullfill her.  That that fullfillment of her was a fullfillment of me.  That my dependence on her was just as sick as her behavior towards me.  

I learned that when I first saw her, my immediate thought was I want to have sex with her, she is exotic, an absolute beauty.  I learned that my replacement is probably thinking or thought the same as me; so how can I judge him?  What did she do to my ego?  What did she do to my pride?  My self-esteem? You know, Heel, she did the same goddamn thing for me that alcohol has always done.  She made me bigger, stronger, faster, she gave me courage, I could walk across that dance floor and ask that girl to dance.  She also gave me the same consequences as alcohol... .

My P doesn't pull punches.  I like and get along great with people like that.  It's that uncomfortable feeling that you have to sit in a while... . that uncomfortable feeling is growth.  To a BPD that uncomfortable feeling sets off neuron after neuron of complete rage, anger, and dyregulation.  We nons, can see/tell when growth occurs.  They never will.

Thanks, for asking that question again, Heel.  It should be a daily reminder about myself, and who I want to be.  For the first time in my life, I can tell I'm taking care of me... .

Arn

You've come a long, long way in a month my friend, and good for you!
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PhoenixRising15
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« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2014, 12:23:52 AM »

@Mazda,

Reading your words, I make up the story that you are still feeling very hurt by what your ex did to you.  Apologies for not reading more of your posts to know the full background.  I've been trying to stay away from these forums and move on with my life, and only come back to check in once in a while.

However, I too was very hurt.  It wasn't just one six month call.  You can check my posts if you like, but I haven't even put it all in there. But I've been there.  Not as bad as some.  Worse than others.

I know the relationship was abusive.  I KNOW I've got ton's of issues to work on, and I'm digging deeper and faster than ever to uncover them.

Why do I still care about my ex so much?  Would I wish a remorse-less murderer happiness?

Have you ever heard the phrase, "Hurt people hurt people"?

For me not to care, would that not make me just as bad as any of my abusers?

You are correct.  I give away what I most want in the world, because I know the cost all too well of not having it.  

I know what it's like to be neglected and abandoned and have people not care about you.  

I know what it's like to walk around feeling like everyone is talking about you and how hitty you are.  

I told myself that story for 20 years because I was abused.  

So I try to make my world a place where that doesn't happen in my surroundings by offering compassion even to those who may seem unworthy of it to others.  I previously had no boundaries or even concept of boundaries, so now, every day, I do turn that compassion more towards myself.  I hope by doing so, I will be able to offer more to others.

It doesn't cost me anything to wish her well (once I'm far enough along in my healing to move beyond being wounded.  If I were to try to consider her feelings right now, I'd just be hindering my own healing).

It does cost me something to hate her or hold on to my anger.  It costs me peace of mind.  Again, my anger has its place in my healing.  My anger currently serves to protect me from being hurt.  Once I've delved deep enough into my core issues to discover what my boundaries are and to hold strong to them, my anger serves no purpose other than to keep me attached to her, and worse yet, in a negative way.

I'm not saying that a relationship with her would be healthy for me right now.  I'm at least that far along in my healing.

Also, it serves me to wish her well (again, at the appropriate place in my healing):

I am able to validate myself that I am not the hateful, spiteful, terrible, unlovable, worthless person that I think I am because I am able to be happy for someone even if they hurt me.  Some call this self righteous. Perhaps my self-esteem is just that low that I need to project my love of self onto others in order to own it in myself.  

I am able to remember with joy the pleasant moments we had together.  Were they "real"?  Well, IMHO, they were as real for me as the pain is.  If I try to deny the joy I felt, that would be to deny the pain as well.  Was there a lot of lying and cheating on her side?  Yes.  Is that my responsibility? Nope.  I was as honest as I could possibly be.  As a matter of fact, she helped me be more honest.  As I demanded more honesty from her, she called me out on bits of dishonesty that I had when I was trying to cut her some slack.

I don't think I can fix her. As a matter of fact, I don't think there is anything to be fixed.  She is exactly as she must be.  She has an important and special place in this universe just like you and I.  Who knows?  Maybe one of our exes will cure the disease that will save one of our children, or our own life one day.

There are things I don't like (and I'm pretty sure she doesn't like) about how she treated me.  I don't think she and I are in a place to have any sort of relationship.  I'm still reeling from the trauma, and she has not delved into her issues to make for productive intimacy (to my knowledge).  I have a choice to not be in a relationship with her and to not have contact with her.  I didn't have those choices as a small child, but now, as an adult, I do, and it's time for me to take responsibility.

Does that make more sense?
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Mazda
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« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2014, 05:06:15 AM »

Hi questioning,

Yes, it does.  I was getting to that point too, trying to convince him to get help before he hurts someone else.  He was already wooing my replacement and now wife.  I have no sympathy for him and my anger is more intense than any anger I have ever felt.  I literally want to watch his life fall to pieces, and that's not something I would ever say about anyone.

Is the anger detrimental? Absolutely.  I just don't know how to let it go though. 
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fromheeltoheal
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« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2014, 08:05:54 AM »

Hi questioning,

Yes, it does.  I was getting to that point too, trying to convince him to get help before he hurts someone else.  He was already wooing my replacement and now wife.  I have no sympathy for him and my anger is more intense than any anger I have ever felt.  I literally want to watch his life fall to pieces, and that's not something I would ever say about anyone.

Is the anger detrimental? Absolutely.  I just don't know how to let it go though.  

I too was very angry, absolute rage, for a solid 6 or 8 months, and it spilled over beyond her to just about everything. If the wrong person had said the wrong thing during that time I would have gone to jail for sure.

At first I focused on how anger is almost always a secondary emotion, and there's something, some other feeling under it, which was true and it was hurt, but it was more than that and I couldn't figure it out.  Then I focused on how anger is a natural reaction to abuse and actually my anger had saved me, also true, but that seemed sort of open ended.

What I finally learned and accepted was anger is one of the 5 stages of grief, something that needed to be worked through and processed, no way around it.  After the anger waned I got depressed and physically sick for a couple of months, I had skipped the bargaining stage of grief, or maybe I did them out of order and didn't realize I was bargaining when I was.  In any case the depression was a relief from the anger at first, but I grew to believe I would be stuck there, not a happy place either.

But lately I feel like I'm accepting, the final stage; it has taken a year and a half. I now see her as a sick person and not a bad one, I've accepted that it is what it is, I focus mostly on the future, I've made some drastic changes as part of the growth, and I'm actually happy and content in spurts and even excited about my future.

So Mazda maybe that's how to let it go, let it pass, which it will as you work through those stages?
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shellsh0cked
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« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2014, 08:40:15 AM »

Sorry, I didn't read enough about your relationship to realise you'd met someone now!

Hope you didn't think I was saying you actually were bitter and should definitely seek help. It's ok to be angry at people who waste your precious time.

Nah... . you gotta get up pretty doggone early in the morning to offend me!   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) 

Yep... . resentment... . letting go and the board helps, but I share mostly to identify with the others on the board.  If they are fresh leaving their BPD, I know how traumatized a person can be.  We have all been there.
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PhoenixRising15
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« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2014, 11:20:01 PM »

@Mazda,

I'm sad to hear you're in that place.  I'm happy to hear you are admitting it.

It was really, really hard for me to get angry at her.  I mean, don't get me wrong, there were moments when I wished terrible things on her.  And then I'd remember how hurt and broken she really was and I'd start feeling bad for wishing bad things on her.  My mind would go back and forth, torturing myself.

But then I just felt it and expressed it.  It was a rage that I had not experienced since childhood.  It was a rage of being abandoned yet again by someone who was "supposed" to be there for me.  It lit me up.  I punched bags, walls, pillows, cried, cursed God. I kept reading here and on addiction forums etc etc searching for "an answer". 

But the answer was truly there the entire time within myself.   

I had never gotten to that level of anger before.  When I was a child, I couldn't.  As I grew up, I acted in, as an anxiety ridden perfectionist.  I never let it out.  I never truly felt how angry I was at not having the mother I wanted.  Instead I had a narcissist.  So I'd been getting trained to be subordinate and take care of other's needs before my own always.  I needed Daisy's help to see that and break they cycle of abuse and self-abuse.

So I personally honor your anger and your ability to feel it.

Be well.  I'm going to disappear for a while.
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charred
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« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2014, 12:20:13 AM »

I feel like I get a little pissy sometimes, but I haven't been able to just let it out and be angry for so long I don't know that I still can. Read Brene Brown's books and I think she is right that you can't disconnect from selected emotions... . when you suppress anger, other emotions get suppressed as well. Used to think I was just a steady in the storm person, unflappable... but its really heavily muted emotions. I don't get real mad, or happy... . its always constrained. Dating my pwBPD... . made things far worse... . felt ecstatic... and down real low and anger and other emotions I had long suppressed... and it all made me feel like I was alive... . just kind of living in hell.

My work requires me to be PC to such a degree that I spend much of my time not saying what is on my mind at work... and it leads to feeling inauthentic which makes me want to avoid making real friends at work... don't want to risk my income over trusting someone new with work torpedo like information.

The weirdest thing with the BPD r/s has been the tie back to early childhood... traumas that I haven't dealt with in 40+ yrs bit me in the butt, I felt serene for a while like I never did as a kid... like the world was right finally, and I was playing and silly and regressed with my pwBPD... it just would turn ugly over petty stuff.

For a while I was really resentful of my pwBPD... thought she had derailed my life when I was in my early 20's, then came back and caused a divorce while I was in my late 40's... . and saw her as root of my problem. I know now that the issues were from my FOO from early childhood onward... . and that is what made me a potential partner for a pwBPD.

I don't know what my personality is officially, had tests and I wasn't NPD... . looked at what is in DBT and suspect it would be helpful to me. Since I am divorced, and no longer with my pwBPD... had thought of dating, sleeping around, having fun, dropping the "responsible one"... role I have had since I was a little kid being parentified... but the same observation about this thread "no cure for BPD"... seems to apply to non-BPD, but still not securely attached either... . I can see myself meeting people, having closer friends than I do, and doing a bit more fun stuff... but my personality is very set... it changed when I was younger... but after 50... how much curing are we still going to be able to get?

Hope cures exist for old developmental trauma... . but I think it is "treatments that might help some"... not cures.
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bpdspell
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« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2014, 02:39:12 PM »

I won't lie. There were times when I wished my ex would fall down a flight of stairs and then get run over by a public bus because my ex physically assaulted me and did a nasty smear campaign on my name that left me reeling in shame. Not all BPD's are the same but mine was certainly sadistic and punishing.

But I'm right there with Questioning Faith. Under all of that rage was a deeply saddened, abandoned, rejected and emotionally neglected little girl who's mother was a flat out narcissist so when the ex behaved in the same manner I totally lost it. It is the Grace of God that I'm truly here; alive and well.

My rage was very comforting for the first year after the breakup but then I started having panic attacks and having really ___ty days of numb emptiness that seemed to never go away. In spite of weekly therapy I was surely depressed because lots of childhood stuff was coming up and I had to face it square in the eye and I really didn't want to have to drudge up old ___.  But the more I held my emotion and pains in the more I sufferered until one day I simple decided to give myself permission to emotionally collapse.

Being the tough girl with teflon skin wears thin when you're reeling in the aftermath of a borderline breakup. I took a year but grief finally overcame me and I bawled for days and days until I couldn't breathe and balled some more. There are days when I still cry from the pain that childhood has caused by I am empowered and healing. It's a journey and it has be snails pace slow but I'm not where I used to be.

Spell
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