What brings a borderline to their knees?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

"Hooking up with someone who turn the tables on'em, and makes'em feel exactly what you are NOW."

I wish I had these infos years ago, I knew how to deal with him and took revenge of all these years! It's too late now.

[Pearl55]

"Hooking up with someone who turn the tables on'em, and makes'em feel exactly what you are NOW."

I wish I had these infos years ago, I knew how to deal with him and took revenge of all these years! It's too late now.

[Popcorn71]

If that is true then I really hope the replacement is worse than he ever was.  Maybe then my ex will have a taste of his own medicine.

The strange thing is though, my ex's  ex wife treated him terribly and he stayed with her until she dumped him for another man.  She aborted his child, had several affairs, caused them to have financial problems and then left him even though he would have carried on in their marriage.  Even now he is friendly with her and wonders why she talks to him so coldly.

I just don't get it.  Is it that the worse you treat them, the more they want you?

[ShadowDancer]

It is the simple disordered paradigm. Same attracts same. Lost boys rescue broken girls, broken girls seek lost boys.

From my personal observations the one thing that brings them to their knees is... . indifference:

              Lack of interest, concern, or sympathy

[heartandwhole]

Hey Pearl55,

Anger and revenge fantasies are part of the healing process, and I can certainly understand wanting to bring someone who hurt you to their knees. 

For me, the problem is that I hurt myself when I do things that cause others pain, so I allow the feelings, but don't act on them.

Do you think there are other feelings hiding underneath your anger?

[seeking balance]

"Hooking up with someone who turn the tables on'em, and makes'em feel exactly what you are NOW."

I wish I had these infos years ago, I knew how to deal with him and took revenge of all these years! It's too late now.

Be careful of pop-armchair psychiatrists who are using your anger and hurt for the goal of their financial well-being.

I have not seen any evidence to this statement in my reading of Marsha Linehan who is undeniably the expert in BPD recovery.  Nor have I seen that in any DSM or DBT related material.

What I do know brings them to their knees is YOU.  The very presence of you, the intimate connection - it is this real or perceived abandonment that brings them to their knees.  Just because their coping looks different than yours does not mean they are not deeply hurt.

I do not know of any credible therapist that uses revenge as a healing platform... . be mindful when you see this on the internet.  Remember idealizing your hurt/lonely/angry without encouraging growth on your part, this is a slippery slope to a rinse/repeat pattern.  I read those folks too in my early learning, wow, did I feel validated... . validation based in false facts or grief... . slippery slope indeed.

Peace,

SB

[Dog biscuit]

From my personal observations the one thing that brings them to their knees is... . indifference:

              Lack of interest, concern, or sympathy

Funny thing is that during the r/s with my ex, I mostly felt that I could secure the r/s if I did not care for him, or when I would have no loving/romantic feelings for him.

But why on earth does someone wants to be in r/s where there is no love or care for the partner? I surely wouldnt.

Twisted stuff! Because this is probably how the BPD person feels towards his/her partner most of the time. It's al so counter intuitive.  

[Pearl55]

If that is true then I really hope the replacement is worse than he ever was.  Maybe then my ex will have a taste of his own medicine.

The strange thing is though, my ex's  ex wife treated him terribly and he stayed with her until she dumped him for another man.  She aborted his child, had several affairs, caused them to have financial problems and then left him even though he would have carried on in their marriage.  Even now he is friendly with her and wonders why she talks to him so coldly.

I just don't get it.  Is it that the worse you treat them, the more they want you?

Yes it's true, the more you love them the less they are interested in you. Crazy people like very abusive partners, in fact the more drama and chaos, the more they enjoy it.

[LA4610]

"From my personal observations the one thing that brings them to their knees is... . indifference:

              Lack of interest, concern, or sympathy"

Yup... . this is it. Healing yourself and no longer having interest, concern, or sympathy for them is what ultimately will bring them to their knees. It will absolutely drive them nuts. I see so many ppl on here (myself included) saying "why doesn't my ex call me" "why doesn't my ex do all of the crazy things i read about" etc etc. I think the answer is bc they know (subconciously) that you are still hooked. When they know you don't care anymore they will get triggered.

Ultimately, seeking any type of revenge on our ex's is not healthy. Honestly, I believe that is what they want us to do. Seek revenge, play the game, try to live in the crazy world they live in. Doing so will allow them to win. EVERYTIME.

What do y'all think?

[expos]

From my personal observations the one thing that brings them to their knees is... . indifference:

              Lack of interest, concern, or sympathy

Funny thing is that during the r/s with my ex, I mostly felt that I could secure the r/s if I did not care for him, or when I would have no loving/romantic feelings for him.

But why on earth does someone wants to be in r/s where there is no love or care for the partner? I surely wouldnt.

Twisted stuff! Because this is probably how the BPD person feels towards his/her partner most of the time. It's al so counter intuitive.  

If you are loving, you are sure thing, and they know you won't leave, so they will abuse you because you are close to them.

This why you are treated so poorly.  This is why they treat their family members like crap.  Family never goes away.

If you are constantly playing games and withdrawing, they will work so much harder to gain that CONTROL.

I hate to bring it back to my own situation, but my ex-wife would talk about her exes and which ones she found repulsive.   Based on my research and understanding, the ones who treated her like a princess were the ones she disliked the most.  She showed me a photo of one of them, an OK looking guy, and she literally said "ew".  

The one boyfriend who treated her the worst and dropped her without any explanation was actually a very ugly guy, and she friended him on Facebook while we were separated.  If that didn't speak volumes!

I know it's bad, but I made sure to treat my ex-wife like dirt on the way out, because I knew how to push her buttons.  Sorry, don't regret it one bit.  Eye for an eye.  

[coastalfog1]

From my perspective, by the end of the relationship we brought each other to our knees. The only difference now is I can get up off the floor if I work on myself while she's doomed  repeat this cycle over and over again.

[Cumulus]

What brings a borderline to their knees is the results of their own actions. I like the quote that goes like this:

"Revenge is taking the poison and expecting the other person to die".

I would be concerned Pearl about reading anything that wished vengeance on another person. Your happiness, healing and growth won't come from another's  misery.  I hope you can find peace in the midst of the turmoil that we are left with when ending a relationship with a person with a personality disorder. It is all so confusing.

[ShadowDancer]

My mentor explained it to me this way. We are ALL spiritual beings enduring a physical experience. Within our spiritual travels of the earthly realm there are such beings as lost wandering souls that we may encounter in our own navigation of the world that presently surrounds us. These souls as a result of the weakened spiritual path that they have knowingly and willingly chosen are in search of an unquenchable relief and fulfillment of their insatiable misery of which ultimately becomes increasingly devoid of conscience and is immeasurably destructive to themselves and all that they encounter. These lost souls neglect the past and fear the future thereby not being capable of mindfully experiencing the moment. Thus the descriptive term hungry ghost.

It is in this desperation they are half formed and dream living. In this condition is found the reason and the answer for the ability of lost souls to change and adapt their earthly forms and reflective behaviors to the conditions in which they find themselves. It is no wonder that they tug at our heart strings as a compassionate soul intuitively recognizes the tragic nature of their plight.

The question for us is what is our part in the tragedy. Is not the pristine goal of all existence purpose. What can our purpose be in this given that we intuitively know that what ever it is that we do will be a conscience reflection of what and who we are. To bring no harm to the afflicted would always be best as it carries no responsibility for the manifestation and further suffering of the recognizable weaker.  

Enlightenment and redemption in this situation is not likely but always possible. The key is devotion and demonstration of compassion to all things both within the sufferer and the witness. The enduring noble finger print we leave behind may be the ability to turn away with a tear in the eye and an ache in the heart, to permit each soul to find their own freedom and way to individual spiritual evolution and destiny without our interference through compassionate indifference is perhaps the best we are able to do.

[TheDude]

What brings a borderline to their knees?

Life.

[arn131arn]

A man with a big house, big car, and big wallet?

[Mutt]

"Hooking up with someone who turn the tables on'em, and makes'em feel exactly what you are NOW."br/>
I wish I had these infos years ago, I knew how to deal with him and took revenge of all these years! It's too late now.

I read her stuff too at the beginning and I agree with SB.

The more that I read, I started to understand that it's a coping mechanism. My anger started to subside. It's a part of her personality! Very different than you or I.
<br/>:)on't fight fire with fire.

Rise above this, learn about BPD, take what part of the r/s belongs to you and work on you!

[growing_wings]

although i agree with SB and Mutt's perspective, i will share what i think brings them down based on my experience:

Seeing that you hold the control. For deep fears, etc. (we all know that), they must feel they are in control of the situation or r/s, so they will seduce and do anything they can to ensure their partner is in their pockets. THe only time i took control (after the b/u) she lost it big big time, and accusations, threats, etc.etc. came my way. I think she was in pain, not for the r/s, but for the fact that i was not only not following her demands, but that i ignored her... .

i dont intend to bring her to her knees, but is the only time i saw her lost it...

[ShakinMyHead]

Old Chinese Proverb "When seeking revenge dig 2 graves."

[Mutt]

Old Chinese Proverb "When seeking revenge dig 2 graves."

I like that proverb!

[mgl210]

D'oh... Where is that proverb from? i just heard it a couple of days ago, and sadly I can't remember for the daylights outta me where its from... .

That is a good question from the original post... "what brings them to their knees? I like to think when you turn the tables on them and stump them for the lack of a better word. but I honestly don't know... .


MGL

Darn it, I'm completely stumped by who said that now

thanks alot

MGL

[mrclear]

What ultimately brings a borderline to their knees is themselves... .   Don't waste your time... .

[ShadowDancer]

"When seeking revenge dig two graves, one for yourself"

Douglas Horton Clergyman Author. He died in the late 60s

[love4meNOTu]

This is hard to talk about, it really is.

I saw how my withdrawing affected him. He was a mess. He tried to rage at me, to make me feel as badly as he did.

I can't say that I saw through it at the time, I was just in a panic at his strange behaviors and afraid of him, but yes, withdrawing from him made him go completely beserk.

It is not pretty. Now I can see how it was fear and hate he was spewing. And it was actually not about me, it was about him. His fears that have permeated his whole life, are in control of him now and forever. Sad.

I don't need revenge. My ex husband will ruin his life all by himself, he can't help it.

L

[santa]

So far as I've seen, only the justice system... . and that was just temporary. I'm sure getting older and winding up miserable and alone will make her rethink some things. Until then, who knows?

[Mutt]

This is hard to talk about, it really is.

I saw how my withdrawing affected him. He was a mess. He tried to rage at me, to make me feel as badly as he did.

I can't say that I saw through it at the time, I was just in a panic at his strange behaviors and afraid of him, but yes, withdrawing from him made him go completely beserk.

It is not pretty. Now I can see how it was fear and hate he was spewing. And it was actually not about me, it was about him. His fears that have permeated his whole life, are in control of him now and forever. Sad.

I don't need revenge. My ex husband will ruin his life all by himself, he can't help it.

L

I saw the same in my ex. Her behaviors got worse as I disengaged. She was having extinction bursts. Maybe your exh was going through the same thing. It was scarier than the behavior while I was in the marriage.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

[Waifed]

"From my personal observations the one thing that brings them to their knees is... . indifference:

              Lack of interest, concern, or sympathy"

Yup... . this is it. Healing yourself and no longer having interest, concern, or sympathy for them is what ultimately will bring them to their knees. It will absolutely drive them nuts. I see so many ppl on here (myself included) saying "why doesn't my ex call me" "why doesn't my ex do all of the crazy things i read about" etc etc. I think the answer is bc they know (subconciously) that you are still hooked. When they know you don't care anymore they will get triggered.

Ultimately, seeking any type of revenge on our ex's is not healthy. Honestly, I believe that is what they want us to do. Seek revenge, play the game, try to live in the crazy world they live in. Doing so will allow them to win. EVERYTIME.

What do y'all think?

I think they are all different, just like us. It's been 5 NC months for me. We live 5 miles from one another and I have no idea what she is doing. No common friends whatsoever so she has no idea what I am doing. We didn't work. We've moved on.

I think like most relationships some people are more "special" than others. They have BPD but they are still human.

[love4meNOTu]

Thank you waifed... I too think that not all pwBPD are alike, and although I assume you probably know your ex's Achilles heel you are gentlemanly enough not to reveal it.  

Mutt - Yes, I thought perhaps they were extinction bursts, they were at the end of the relationship. He also tried switching up his behavior, and tried being kind one day. I was at the point where his behavior was so crazy (raging, ignoring, then kind) that I just could not make sense of it. I just kept my mouth shut and kept out of his way.

I sure wish I would have known about BPD before I left the ex. Perhaps the end wouldn't have been quite so bad. But there still would have been an end. I don't think I can ever forgive him for abusing me in front of my boys, I know they can't.

L

[Mutt]

Mutt - Yes, I thought perhaps they were extinction bursts, they were at the end of the relationship. He also tried switching up his behavior, and tried being kind one day. I was at the point where his behavior was so crazy (raging, ignoring, then kind) that I just could not make sense of it. I just kept my mouth shut and kept out of his way.

I'm not sure about you love4meNOTu, and I know that you'll understand without saying anything. It's scary and surreal to witness now. I couldn't tell if it was a combination of being out of the FOG and seeing the forest for the trees or exctinction bursts. It probably was a combination of both. It was more painful to see my ex because I really see a disorded person now.

- Mutt  

[Happy1]

But why on earth does someone wants to be in r/s where there is no love or care for the partner?

To me it's simple. So, they don't have to be alone (fear of abandonment).

[love4meNOTu]

Yea well Mutt... . my T said a few months ago that I would truly start healing when I saw the good and evil parts of my exhusband as one. He is not the good man he presented to me initially, and he is not the terrifying man that he was at the end. He is both.

He is disordered. And I see it clearly now. All the FOG is gone. Cognitive dissonance... gone.

Mutt even if he wasn't disordered, he is not the man for me. It just took me a while to quit denying it.

And I bet you understand that... .

L

[Happy1]

Old Chinese Proverb "When seeking revenge dig 2 graves."

And this one too, "Revenge is a dish best served cold." Which could mean several things, but for me, it means not even having to serve it. It will serve itself when you likely won't even care.

[Take2]

Yea well Mutt... . my T said a few months ago that I would truly start healing when I saw the good and evil parts of my exhusband as one. He is not the good man he presented to me initially, and he is not the terrifying man that he was at the end. He is both.

He is disordered. And I see it clearly now. All the FOG is gone. Cognitive dissonance... gone.

Mutt even if he wasn't disordered, he is not the man for me. It just took me a while to quit denying it.

And I bet you understand that... .

L

Love... .   thank you for your posts, I find strength by reading them.  You are a very kind person - as everyone here is - just been meaning to let you know that for a while now... .    

Intellectually I know too that my ex is both a kind, funny man and a raging lunatic - all rolled into one.  But for some reason, knowing that doesn't make it easier for me to stop thinking and caring about him.  Is it just time and space apart with NC that helped you really reach that place of strength?

[Tausk]

I pretty much think that the vast majority of pwBPD are already on their knees?

From what I've seen and learned, if being on ones knees means giving up and letting the Disorder bring you endless suffering and pain, I'd say that the vast majority of pwBPD are on their knees now.

Do you really think that they like their existence.  Would you trade for a moment?  

If a terrified and traumatized three-year old says to you, "I hate you" are you looking for ways to bring that three-year old to her knees?  :)o you want revenge on her.  If so here's some suggestions to bring them onto their knees.

Take a belt out and start slapping it all around and occasionally hit her.

Drop her off all alone in the middle of traffic in a large city.

Cover her eyes, cover her ears, give her limited capacity to function and tell her she's got to survive the world all alone... . oh wait that is already the existence for a pwBPD.

And sadly, if you really want to hurt your ex wBPD, live well.  Be a good person.  My ex has painted me as abusive, evil, controlling.  If I enact revenge, it just proves in her mind she was right about me.  I can't do anything to her to a level that hasn't already been done to her when she was a toddler.

However if I'm even party good or decent, that does not compute in the black or white thinking of my ex. She can't cognitively understand how I might be both good and flawed.  This causes her great pain.  

So, ironically living well is the greatest revenge I can take on my ex.  

Even in compassion and detachment, I cause her increased pain.

Sadness.

[Take2]

It is the simple disordered paradigm. Same attracts same. Lost boys rescue broken girls, broken girls seek lost boys.

Ain't that the truth... .    and it took this r/s to truly show me how broken I had become... .  

[love4meNOTu]

Thank you for your kind words Take2.

I would say that I found my own strength. In this basic fact... .

My exhusband did not love me. He needed me. I could not tell the difference, I thought he loved me as I loved him. He did not.

That is the truth. Harsh as it is, he does not love in the way you and I do. He is not capable of it. But he can pretend to love, until the object (me, his wife) becomes human. I could not fulfill his needs Take2. They were limitless. He was a bucket with a hole in it... . there is not enough love or attention in the world for him.

In order for me to be the woman he needed, I would have had to devote myself entirely to him. And even then, Take2, it would not have been enough.

And I would have lost myself. And my relationships. And my children.

That is too much to lose.

Hugs,

L

[Take2]

Love4me... .   yep, I know and understand all of that... .   and yet my own twisted head keeps wanting to believe that his words to try to lure me back mean that he does actually love me... .   which is absurd since he's telling another woman he loves her !  Clearly I am capable of understanding this.  I suppose the fog will not truly be lifted for me until I get away from him (work makes it very difficult). 

[love4meNOTu]

Take 2 I get it...

Yea it is definitely fog, and time will help that. But I will say one thing, and that is self respect. When you are with a pwBPD for quite a while you lose what was your self respect. You lose it because you constantly stop yourself from being who you truly are because there will be ramifications from your partner.

But this is your journey, I can't tell you how to heal, part of me didn't really start doing well until I got angry. I mean major, righteous anger.

It definitely propelled me to the next level of healing, acceptance.

[mgl210]

I think that is great that you found your outlet L4... . What is helping me thus far is knowing that I know the truth behind me and her. I also get great pleasure out of knowing that I will one day have a healthy relationship while she might never have that... Life will always be able bouncing around for her. I wish it wasn't the case for her, but its the BPD that controls it i guess... .

MGL

[Take2]

And MG that's why I can't seem to hold onto my anger... .   I feel so sad thinking that my ex will constantly go thru this... .   as everyone tells me, I know it's not my issue any longer, yet I still can't get passed feeling sad about that for him.

[myself]

self respect. When you are with a pwBPD for quite a while you lose what was your self respect. You lose it because you constantly stop yourself from being who you truly are because there will be ramifications from your partner.

This is when we're brought to our knees.

When we stand up for ourselves, we regain more than self respect.

We get closer to our potential.

[mgl210]

I hope that no one thinks im being insensitive towards my ex. I do feel extremely guilty that she will never (well maybe not never) find true happiness as she will always worry about being abandoned and what not... .

MGL

[buddy1226]

Wow... thanks, tausk... I so needed that.

[Take2]

I hope that no one thinks im being insensitive towards my ex. I do feel extremely guilty that she will never (well maybe not never) find true happiness as she will always worry about being abandoned and what not... .

MGL

MGL... . I don't think you are insensitve at all.  I think your outlook is healthy and grounded.  I know that intellectually yet I stay twisted in my own thinking with my ex.  You are realistic and strong and still have compassion for your ex.  I am working hard to get to that place and do gain strength in your posts also... .

[Perfidy]

I have to say that I'm turned. I'm turned away from bringing anyone to their knees. Since I began my suffering I could not afford to do anything that would not bring me off of my own knees. I'm stronger now than I have been in my life ever. I feel good and I feel good about my self. I'm getting there.

[mgl210]

Thanks Take,

If anything. yes I admit freely that I worry constantly about anybody I care about, especially someone so deep to me as she was... . I hope that someday she can resolve these issues inside herself and find her true happiness. Do I wish it was with me? Of course, I do, but the unselfish part of me just hopes for the best for her. She did alot to hurt me really deep, but I hate holding grudges against people. The only person I hold any grudge against somewhat is a friend of mine who committed suicide.

I've learned that its hard to be or feel what others expect us to. Sure, we can get some great advice and support from the people who have been in our shoes on this board. However, to be real with thyself is to be the key. I want to be free from feeling as if its my fault that the rs didn't work, but I need to resolve the true inner feelings I feel about the rs to begin with... .

I've got no more strength than you or anyone. I just handle it differently I suppose. Please don't put me on such a high level... . LOL

MGL

[Mutt]

Yea well Mutt... . my T said a few months ago that I would truly start healing when I saw the good and evil parts of my exhusband as one. He is not the good man he presented to me initially, and he is not the terrifying man that he was at the end. He is both.

He is disordered. And I see it clearly now. All the FOG is gone. Cognitive dissonance... gone.

Mutt even if he wasn't disordered, he is not the man for me. It just took me a while to quit denying it.

And I bet you understand that... .

L

I understand. I don't see her often and when I do, it's to quickly pick up the kids and to drop them off. The behaviors that she was exibiting while in the r/s I put up with it and didn't see it for what it was. I can see her behaviors now.  She was being dysregulated due to controlled contact and not responding to her bomb e-mails. That's what I meant by disordered. It's sad and painful to see her oblivious of her actions and doing this in front of the kids. It's like she doesn't even know that they are there and certainly doesn't understand what effect that she has on them.

I married her for the wrong reasons and tried to make the marriage work. Would I do it with her again even if she wasn't disordered? I don't know, she was mirroring me and I don't know who she was.

I also stayed because of the kids. I'm thankful I have my kids from her, I could do without the rest.

- Mutt  

[fromheeltoheal]

We abandon a borderline for us, but that also hurts the sufferer where it hurts most, a replaying of the trauma that created the disorder to begin with.  It's OK to enjoy that consequence, just a little bit.

[Tausk]

I'm thankful I have my kids from her, I could do without the rest.

- Mutt  

And that is the ultimate evidence of the r/s having the source material for both white and black.   It's never one or the other.

[Mutt]

I'm thankful I have my kids from her, I could do without the rest.

- Mutt  

And that is the ultimate evidence of the r/s having the source material for both white and black.   It's never one or the other.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by source material?

[Tausk]

I'm thankful I have my kids from her, I could do without the rest.

- Mutt  

And that is the ultimate evidence of the r/s having the source material for both white and black.   It's never one or the other.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by source material?

I was just saying your r/s with your ex. 

I know of a few women who were married to ex hwBPD.  And when the conversation starts to split about how everything was just evil, I ask if they would trade their kids for never having had to endure the suffering.

It usually stops the extreme splitting in it's tracks.  As difficult and hellish the r/s was, for my friends it produced some terrific and caring children.  I sound's like you're a great dad and I'm sure your kids feel loved.

[Mutt]

was just saying your r/s with your ex.  

I know of a few women who were married to ex hwBPD.  And when the conversation starts to split about how everything was just evil, I ask if they would trade their kids for never having had to endure the suffering.

It usually stops the extreme splitting in it's tracks.  As difficult and hellish the r/s was, for my friends it produced some terrific and caring children.  I sound's like you're a great dad and I'm sure your kids feel loved.

Thank you tausk!

I don't know of any friends in my personal life that have had a BPD or had even heard of it before I brought it up to really close friends. That's something interesting though. I guess I would fall into that group. As difficult and painful that the r/s was, it didn't make a difference to me when it ended. I keep thinking about my kids as being the most precious thing to take away from it and if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have them.

I try to protect them from their mother. I feel for my SD. I can see that SD was alienated from her father and was told that her dad was abusive, a drunk, lazy and didn't care for her. Things were good with SD and I for the first bit of the marriage, but my spouse kept alienating me from her and saying the same things to SD. I didn't care for her, I treated her differently etc... . And created a chasm between us.

SD is 15 btw and she had mentioned in the past that mom always fought with her boyfriends when she was upset during an argument with SO and I. Since the split, SD is having a really hard time with the ex. I'm not there anymore and the disorder is always there. The replacement and her have such a weird arrangement. He spends half his time there and she spends have the time at his place. My point is, the times that he is not there, SD is getting the brunt of it. I'm hopeful that my kids when they reach the age of 13 will want to come to live with dad. For now, they're with me half of the time, so I feel like at least they have an emotional calm base. But that's not the case with SD. I can see how "splitting" even a child, can have such a negative emotional impact on them. I try my best tausk with this disorder, but some things are not in my control, like SD sadly.

[Popcorn71]

My exhusband did not love me. He needed me. I could not tell the difference, I thought he loved me as I loved him. He did not.

That is the truth. Harsh as it is, he does not love in the way you and I do. He is not capable of it. But he can pretend to love, until the object (me, his wife) becomes human. I could not fulfill his needs Take2. They were limitless. He was a bucket with a hole in it... . there is not enough love or attention in the world for him.

In order for me to be the woman he needed, I would have had to devote myself entirely to him. And even then, Take2, it would not have been enough.

And I would have lost myself. And my relationships. And my children.

That is too much to lose.

You have written my exact situation.  You are right, it is too much to lose.

I have decided that living well is the best thing to do.  I always told him that I would be OK if he left, because I had been OK before I met him.  He didn't seem to like that thought.

The last text I had from him asked 'Are you OK?'  Maybe he's hoping I'm not?

[Pinoypride18]

Going back to the original post, does going NC bring them to their knees?

[Take2]

It does... .   because they fear they have lost control over you when you don't respond... .

[Take2]

The last text I had from him asked 'Are you OK?'  Maybe he's hoping I'm not?

Not necessarily... . he's hoping you are still there as a possible recycle when needed... .

[cosmonaut]

What I do know brings them to their knees is YOU.  The very presence of you, the intimate connection - it is this real or perceived abandonment that brings them to their knees.  Just because their coping looks different than yours does not mean they are not deeply hurt.

This really hit me, SB.  I feel this way about my ex.  Somehow, just having anything to do with me is more than she can bare.  It's not really something I understand, but I do think that she is in pain too.  I think she wanted us to work out.  I think she was in love.  It just wasn't sustainable for her.  It just became impossible for her to deal with after a certain critical mass had been achieved.

[Tausk]

Going back to the original post, does going NC bring them to their knees?

My question to you is what makes you believe that they aren't on their knees every moment of their lives?  

Second question:  How does knowing this information help you to be a better man?

Would you trade your life for theirs for even a moment?  Would you want to trade the pain, shame, and terror, especially without a true sense of self to process any of it.  We want retribution because our egos are wounded.  Or exes don't even have egos.

IMHO, Trying to survive brings them to their knees.

That's why 10% or more end up in suicide. A larger to AODA.  A significant number are prostitutes, bag ladies, or homeless men.  A huge number are in the correction's system.  And those few that do survive often end up as lonely mean cat women or cranky old men who yell at kids on his lawn.

If you want your ex to suffer, don't worry she is.

[Octoberfest]

It is the simple disordered paradigm. Same attracts same. Lost boys rescue broken girls, broken girls seek lost boys.

Well that one hurt.

[KE151]

I've been so busy getting back up that I cannot really waste any time on getting them on their knees.

I'm at the point where I'm almost om their side, hoping they'll be able to live happy and stable lives, for themselves but most importantly, their kids' sake. They're fading into the canvas that is my past.

[free-n-clear]

A man with a big house, big car, and big wallet?

   That's just the ones with a bit of self-respect, arn.  Couple of drinks is enough for mine. 

[findingmyselfagain]

I tend to agree that it's simply daily life which brings a pwBPD the most hurt. Mine was very hurt and broken. In the end I think one reason she left is because she knew and felt bad that she hurt me. Once she started having panic attacks due to our wedding date getting closer (it never happened... . thankfully), it seemed like it was all she could do to just survive. I only saw glimpses of this part of her during the idealization phase. The strange arguments were just a clue of what was going on. I believe that who she really is, is hurt, depressed, and anxious. The best thing for us to do is pick up the pieces and move on.

[maimed4life]

I found that not reacting to their rages makes them even more crazy.  Just ignoring them, even laughing at them.  Of course, it doesn't end the rages.  But, they're hoping you'll fight back, and it confuses them when you don't.

[Undone123]

Going back to the original post, does going NC bring them to their knees?

My question to you is what makes you believe that they aren't on their knees every moment of their lives?  

Second question:  How does knowing this information help you to be a better man?

Would you trade your life for theirs for even a moment?  Would you want to trade the pain, shame, and terror, especially without a true sense of self to process any of it.  We want retribution because our egos are wounded.  Or exes don't even have egos.

IMHO, Trying to survive brings them to their knees.

That's why 10% or more end up in suicide. A larger to AODA.  A significant number are prostitutes, bag ladies, or homeless men.  A huge number are in the correction's system.  And those few that do survive often end up as lonely mean cat women or cranky old men who yell at kids on his lawn.

If you want your ex to suffer, don't worry she is.

So true - Wanting revenge for a small period of time is natural (I did), but we must process it properly... .   Holding on to the anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die... . It does not make us better people.

My ex suffers every day. I hold no anger towards her. She is a good person. She hates herself more than anyone else could. Its a true tragidy. Such a beautiful person burdened by an illness that will prevent her from ever truly being happy.

Im not to sure on this thread.

[Hurtbeyondrepair27]

Im not vengeful at all... I dont want revenge. But,i want,him to have remorse to see thats hes wrong for whatt he did to me. Not nc I want,him to feel pain but,jist to have his empathy to feel the love I,tjought,he,had for me. To feel for me the way I woild feel for him. Vut I would have nwver did wjat he did. So that jist not a realistic wANT. Jonestly if u do that u play imto the character they turned you into. Then if,they ever have a chance of,healimg they wont be able to look back and see what they did to you. They ll look at ypu like an equal and that they rightfully cut you out amd treated you badly nc u are the horrible person they painted,you as. Im trying to have hope for him. Somehow I still have this hope but its probably self serving nc I want hos validation. Which is really messed up and perplexing on my part. I jist cant handle him having no remorse for unsolicited abuse. Not like any abuse is solicited... I guess I,have my issues as well.

[Pearl55]

Undone

Most non borderlines think borderlines are good people but good people don't hurt others to enjoy it! Good people don't abuse others. You feelings don't matter, only their feelings!

[Hurtbeyondrepair27]

Undone

Most non borderlines think borderlines are good people but good people don't hurt others to enjoy it! Good people don't abuse others. You feelings don't matter, only their feelings!

Thats true and,helps me big time. My exbp is so nice and helpful and caring when hes not splitting  but youre right good ppl dont do that

[Tausk]

Undone

Most non borderlines think borderlines are good people but good people don't hurt others to enjoy it! Good people don't abuse others. You feelings don't matter, only their feelings!

Splitting our exes either way can be dangerous.  Good vs. Evil.  Our exes are Disordered.  Is a homeless man or bag lady who yells at you good or evil?

The Disorder leaves pwBPD at the emotional state of a traumatized three year old with no real sense of self.  

We didn't become involved with our exes because they were able to torture baby rabbits.  In fact, we became involved because they felt so much that seeing bunnies in pain is too much for them to process.  And they do not INTEND to be destructive.  But the Disorder is very destructive to those that allow it into their lives.

Passing moral judgement on a Disorder person in a blanket manner, also requires judgment on ourselves.  Why did a supposedly "sane and responsible" person get involved with someone who is evil.

I've found that looking at the Disorder and thinking in the mixtures of life help me to recover.

[Hurtbeyondrepair27]

I know im not totally sane and responsible but at least im working on it. In my,case my exbp cant help it,yes but knows he does amd brags abpit it,heartlessely. Im not judging him... . Jist think,its wrong to attempt amd desteoy a persons lige witj no remorse or motivatiom to stop,ypurself from harming others all the while sitting on a moral high horse and dolling out punishment on the percieved bad ones. I feel lots of empathy for my exbp but,it bothers me I do,knowing that fact. Feels weak to feel sorry for someone who,knowingly hurts others and gains enjoy,ent from it  I,think bc my,first exbp had so much,never ending empathy from me and she,used it so much to her advantage. I know,i,have,issues to be with,them but at,least,i,want to change. And I,own up to screwy things I do. Mostly anyway

[Pearl55]

Tausk

They are EVILS and extremely sadistic. They are great actress and actors! Understanding BPD helped me a lot but this illnessis is not an excuse for abuse.  How they are able to control themselves in front of others? Dr Jekyll Mr Hyde!

[Tausk]

Tausk

They are EVILS and extremely sadistic. They are great actress and actors! Understanding BPD helped me a lot but this illnessis is not an excuse for abuse.  How they are able to control themselves in front of others? Dr Jekyll Mr Hyde!

Perhaps your ex is evil.  But I don't feel mine was.  Yes, her behaviors are confusing.  Her emotions are contradictory.  She has survival responses that fundamentally preclude any chance of happiness.

That's why it's called a DISORDER.  That's why it's mental illness.

Explain the Jekyll/Hyde model when a person takes a steak knife and slashes themselves across their entire body.

But where you might find an explanation for the Jekyll/Hyde is in the Dissociative Personality symptoms.  The splitting.  Where they may still be in the same mind, but actually have a different persona with a different agendas and with none responsible to the others, but at the same time with real no sense of self.

Sound insane?  It is. It's Bat Sht Crazy. It's insanity, but disguised for the "higher" functioning ones.  It's a Disorder.  

That's just my interpretation.  It helped to understand that I didn't fall in "love" with an evil cheating destructive sociopath.  Even though her actions were all of the above.  I was lost in the evil ex for a long time.  I wanted revenge.  I wanted her to suffer.  But then I began to understand that it was the ego of my false self that wanted those things. It was easier to hate my ex and be a victim than look at my part.  My ex's life is pathetic.  But at least she has a Disorder as an explanation, not an excuse.  For me. living this short life with resentment as a helpless perpetual victim, is even more pathetic since I'm supposedly the "NON".  And nothing ever changes in victim mode. How can change occur, because I'm the helpless victim.

Today I know that I was simply enmeshed in the Disorder, which is not that uncommon.  But that's just me.  There's a spectrum to everything.

[Take2]

I'm reading a book called "Why Does He Do That" - written by this guy who has counseled abusive men for like 27 years or something.  Most of the men are not in the program willingly - they are court ordered.  It's incredibly interesting to read and he really truly seems to understand what people on the abused end go thru given that he makes sure to talk to both people.  Anyway - with the conversation you two have brought up about Evil vs. Disordered... .    the more I leaned toward feeling that my ex's behavior is caused by the disorder, the more compassion I felt for him.  But I find that keeps me stuck and wanting to fix him more.

I've never felt he is an evil person - despite the intense abuse he's put me thru.  I have seen him change from a normal person to Bat Sht Crazy in the blink of an eye.  It frankly scared the crap out of me.

But the point I wanted to make from my book is that when an abusive person (man in the context of the book) is able to hide the abuse in front of others, what's at work there is ABUSE, not the disorder.

It's a learned behavior that many, nons and disordered people have.  But the disorder is no excuse for abusive treatment. 

I agree that it's on a spectrum of behavior, but I suppose when one goes thru intense emotional and psychological abuse, it's hard to have as much compassion. 

And then when you consider how badly I miss this guy, you really have to question which one of us is Bat Sht Crazy... .    

[Tausk]

... .  the more I leaned toward feeling that my ex's behavior is caused by the disorder, the more compassion I felt for him.  But I find that keeps me stuck and wanting to fix him more.

And then when you consider how badly I miss this guy, you really have to question which one of us is Bat Sht Crazy... .  

Yeah it's a Disorder.  But I'm not advocating returning to participate in the Disorder.  If you need to think of them as Evil to stay away then think of them as Evil.  

The Walking Dead, Zombies, Emotional Vampires... . all works, because my ex is as dangerous to me as heroin.  If I let me ex back into my life, through the Disorder, she will suck the living soul out of me, then she will paint me black, forget me, and leave me at the side of the road rotting, while she f'cks another man next to me.

And she'll do it while blaming me for my abusive behavior, which forced her to lie and cheat and destroy.  She has no guilt, so no remorse, so her actions are sociopathic and evil.

But I choose not to think of her as a sociopathic or inherently evil.  But that's because I've accepted that she's never never never going to change due to the Disorder.  There's no evidence that she's going to change what so ever. But ton's of evidence that she won't.

So, in order to stay NC, if I have to think of her as Evil I will.  But today, in order to find recovery, I choose to look at the big picture.



But make no mistake, her actions are the same as the walking dead, and sometimes when I watch the show, I pretend my ex is one of the Zombies, who will never stop chasing, will never be satisfied, and if she ever catches me will eat me on the spot without a second thought.

[Take2]

Great way to put it... .

I need to read that over and over.

Struggling so badly.

[arn131arn]

I haven't commented on this thread in a few days. My only response has been only of sarcasm, yet, knowing my ex ruined a career for me, our family, abuse in ALL facets, and the [url=https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0]Triangulation[/url] and smear campaigns, and alienating a son (8) from his father. I really wanted to lash out at you, Tausk. I realy wanted to just say some horrible things to you and and come through the computer screen. When a man is accused of abuse he is outcasted, he is looked down upon, and he IS guilty until proven innocent. I understand they are disordered, but Tausk, that disorder doesn't give them the right to do illegal deeds. Most male BPDs, I would say are in prison probably or one step away. But then you got me thinking. I, like you, do not want to be a victim. Victim's never get free. I could use my alcoholism as a crutch or sit around saying "poor me", but I use it now to better who I am today. So, in that uncomfortable feeling I experienced reading your posts, Tausk, I knew it has done something to help Arn grow. Thanks

[Tausk]

I haven't commented on this thread in a few days. My only response has been only of sarcasm, yet, knowing my ex ruined a career for me, our family, abuse in ALL facets, and the Triangulation and smear campaigns, and alienating a son (8) from his father. I really wanted to lash out at you, Tausk. I realy wanted to just say some horrible things to you and and come through the computer screen. When a man is accused of abuse he is outcasted, he is looked down upon, and he IS guilty until proven innocent. I understand they are disordered, but Tausk, that disorder doesn't give them the right to do illegal deeds. Most male BPDs, I would say are in prison probably or one step away. But then you got me thinking. I, like you, do not want to be a victim. Victim's never get free. I could use my alcoholism as a crutch or sit around saying "poor me", but I use it now to better who I am today. So, in that uncomfortable feeling I experienced reading your posts, Tausk, I knew it has done something to help Arn grow. Thanks

Thanks Arn:

Reading your post moved me.  Thank you for your raw honesty and emotion.  And although I can't compare pain, I know for me that I went through a long time trying to find someway to believe that I was going survive my feelings.

I will say, that small spark of self awareness/honesty, that you just displayed, has been the cornerstone of my recovery when working the steps.  I use the steps here as well.  I know how painful early recovery can be.  And I know that you're going through multiple areas. Hang in there. It gets better.  People have done it before and there's a proven path.  

Just your post above with it's raw honesty and emotion is evidence that you can walk the path of recovery with success.  And the fact that you're working multiple areas means that you'll get proportionately deeper recovery.

One concept that I learned is that the Disorder and AODA tells us that how we feel right now is how it is, how it always has been and how it always will be.  And the above statement is true if we are locked into the Disorder/AODA.  Nothing changes, It just gets continually worse, which is the same as yesterday, as today, as tomorrow. Just worse.  And I got used to being locked into this thinking.

But we don't have to live that paradigm anymore.  The work we do today, bring positive changes deep down, which is real and will last a lifetime... . if we work at it.

Keep the hope and the faith.  We have the right to those principals today.

T

[ShadowDancer]

Tausk

They are EVILS and extremely sadistic. They are great actress and actors! Understanding BPD helped me a lot but this illnessis is not an excuse for abuse.  How they are able to control themselves in front of others? Dr Jekyll Mr Hyde!

I have to agree with Pearl. Even though the PDI are perhaps damaged by the past ect. ect. of which said occurrence may or may not have been in their control in that instant of injury and they are indeed left emotionally with the where for all of an angry three year old, these folks are still thinking and processing human beings with an absolute sense of right and wrong.

It is my belief that as they wander their emotionally damaged wasteland their own moral compass is simply overruled and corrupted by their desire to self serve their own emotional deficits and lack of core being thru methods that satisfy their own hunger for personal actualization and relief. I do believe in certain situations that they injure others with the full awareness that thru the pain they inflict upon other innocents brings them a certain element of gleeful joy and pleasure. To blanket state that they simply can't help themselves is dismissive naive speculation. They are known to be observed to have the ability to contain this destructiveness publicly to then to go on and unleash their wrath in the privacy of their intimate relationships. These people know full well what they are doing. I makes them feel alive and brings them the affirmation that they are viable effective human beings. Right or wrong of their actions does not matter to them as long as it brings them validation that they exist.

To compare them to the shouting "homeless bag people" who may suffer from a myriad of psycho social illnesses ranging from alcoholism to un medicated schizophrenia, bipolar ect. ect. is an apologist statement and an absurd comparision of belief that holds and defends by its implication that these folks are unaccountable for their own actions.  

Tausk, your ex is not only dangerous to you, she is dangerous to anyone she is intimate with. You are not the first and you are not the last. She has a whole lifetime of hell to raise... . and she knows it.

[hergestridge]

Just walking away. That brings them to their knees.

Trying to talk to them like grown ups will only provoke one response;

they will be picking a fight with you. Again.

But is this usesfull information?

Perhaps on the the leaving board, I suppose?  

I don't normally post here.

[Tolou]

SHADOW DANCER... . THAT WAS REAL DEEP... . REAL DEEP READING THAT POST!

THANKS, SEEMS LIKE A WONDERFUL MENTOR.

[Undone123]

oh indeed she is disordered.

Yes she treats people awfully. But I don't believe she wakes up in the morning and intends to be that way. Yes only her feelings matter, but she has no capacity to empathise... . She is intrinsically a GOOD person. For us its about acceptance. Accepting the reality of the disorder... . We expect pwBPD to behave in a way they have no capacity to behave in, and then get sad. A lot of victim mentality comes from nons.

The pwBPD's responsibility is treatment. But without that we can't expect them to be any other way, and even then we must be realistic about what "recovery" looks like.

My ex was emotionally abused by her primary care givers. When I was in the relationship I had no knowledge of BPD, but I did know her behavior was learned! It came from somewhere, a place I have been luckily enough not to experience. Give them a break, they are on their knees every day.

[BorisAcusio]

Tausk

They are EVILS and extremely sadistic. They are great actress and actors! Understanding BPD helped me a lot but this illnessis is not an excuse for abuse.  How they are able to control themselves in front of others? Dr Jekyll Mr Hyde!

I have to agree with Pearl. Even though the PDI are perhaps damaged by the past ect. ect. of which said occurrence may or may not have been in their control in that instant of injury and they are indeed left emotionally with the where for all of an angry three year old, these folks are still thinking and processing human beings with an absolute sense of right and wrong.

It is my belief that as they wander their emotionally damaged wasteland their own moral compass is simply overruled and corrupted by their desire to self serve their own emotional deficits and lack of core being thru methods that satisfy their own hunger for personal actualization and relief. I do believe in certain situations that they injure others with the full awareness that thru the pain they inflict upon other innocents brings them a certain element of gleeful joy and pleasure. To blanket state that they simply can't help themselves is dismissive naive speculation. They are known to be observed to have the ability to contain this destructiveness publicly to then to go on and unleash their wrath in the privacy of their intimate relationships. These people know full well what they are doing. I makes them feel alive and brings them the affirmation that they are viable effective human beings. Right or wrong of their actions does not matter to them as long as it brings them validation that they exist.

To compare them to the shouting "homeless bag people" who may suffer from a myriad of psycho social illnesses ranging from alcoholism to un medicated schizophrenia, bipolar ect. ect. is an apologist statement and an absurd comparision of belief that holds and defends by its implication that these folks are unaccountable for their own actions.  

Tausk, your ex is not only dangerous to you, she is dangerous to anyone she is intimate with. You are not the first and you are not the last. She has a whole lifetime of hell to raise... . and she knows it.

Great post there, Shadow.

[BorisAcusio]

oh indeed she is disordered.

Yes she treats people awfully. But I don't believe she wakes up in the morning and intends to be that way.

Does that matter? They completely know that their actions will deeply hurt the nons. They know it and do it anyways.

[Undone123]

oh indeed she is disordered.

Yes she treats people awfully. But I don't believe she wakes up in the morning and intends to be that way.

Does that matter? They completely know that their actions will deeply hurt the nons. They know it and do it anyways.

They know their actions... . But I don't believe they understand the extent it will hurt. They don't have that capacity to empathise, because they are wrapped up in their own inner turmoil

[DreamGirl]

This thread has reached the 4 page limit - time to lock it up.