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Author Topic: Challenging "no contact"  (Read 6977 times)
LivingLearning
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« on: May 09, 2014, 11:28:07 PM »

 So for the sake of discussion that could help me I just posted this:

"So when do I stop taking it? When do i speak my truth?

When do I stop assigning a BPD so much power that I need NC to protect myself?"

Interested in replies.
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2014, 11:43:08 PM »

Follow Mutts advice. Good luck. 



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Mutt
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2014, 11:58:24 PM »

Hi LivingLearning,

No contact is a temporary tool to give yourself space / time to heal. The goal is to detach, take this opportunity to understand BPD, learn that it's not something that is personal, it's an attachment disorder. They lack a sense of self, have low self esteem, feel guilt and shame. It's a great opportunity to do our own personal inventory, what are our negative personality traits? What are the issues that we brought to the table? It really takes two. There are some big lessons to learn, if we look. Detachment leads to freedom.

- Mutt
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LivingLearning
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2014, 12:21:29 AM »

Hey mutt,

In some ways I agree, in some ways I ask you for clarification.

Does it rally take two? I'm aware that's a popular idea in self help. Of which I'm no stranger for 2o years. Yet was that true in nazi germany? If not, why can't we see that down to personal encounters. Were the Jews participating?

I'm starting to realize despite pop psych, that maybe it doesn't take two. And that can be liberating. That maybe the kind, are good victims. That this doesn't mean it takes two, it took one. One person who was victimizing. And the irony is to realize that. And many people I. "Stockholm syndrome". Are drawn to see the fault in themselves, when there was none?

It's a new idea I've been exploring and finding great relief in.
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LivingLearning
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2014, 12:40:20 AM »

Also mutt,

You mentioned "personal inventory". I recognize that as an AA/ allanon slogan. My experience of allanon has been overall negative though for a time (5 years)I felt it was a good group- then i noticed what research I believe shows. Questionable efficacy of that system for recovery. I believe the stat is 4 percent efficacy  as opposed to Europe which does better and doesn't agree to the idea of powerlessness? This comes in to our conversation as it relates to your subtle ways of attributing contribution to me.
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2014, 12:43:38 AM »

Does it rally take two? I'm aware that's a popular idea in self help. Of which I'm no stranger for 2o years. Yet was that true in nazi germany? If not, why can't we see that down to personal encounters. Were the Jews participating?

She sounds like a super-villain.

I'm starting to realize despite pop psych, that maybe it doesn't take two. And that can be liberating. That maybe the kind, are good victims. That this doesn't mean it takes two, it took one. One person who was victimizing. And the irony is to realize that. And many people I. "Stockholm syndrome". Are drawn to see the fault in themselves, when there was none?

It's a new idea I've been exploring and finding great relief in.

Junk psychology validates anger.

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LivingLearning
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2014, 12:51:49 AM »

I don't understand what those two responses mean. Can you elaborate?
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2014, 12:52:32 AM »

I agree with you here. It only takes one to victimize. It takes two to stay. I think that is what it means in terms of 'it takes two'. And I agree that the pop psychology stuff just doesn't apply in this kind of situation. If someone is punching you in the face, one some level, it 'takes two' (the fist and the face) but is it the fault of the face for getting a fist in it? No. I think this is where the pop psychology stuff gets really dangerous. My ex used to use that on me ALL THE TIME. She would rage at me and freak out and then tell me the exact same thing... . that I needed to look at MY behaviour and take my equal part of the responsibility in it. That is called 'gas-lighting' and to continue down this path after the relationship is over is to continue to play the gas-lighting in your mind over and over and over again. It's not helpful. What is more helpful is to realize that the part I played in this abuse was staying around for it and not recognizing it at the time for what it was, abuse. Does this make it my fault? No. Is my ex ultimately responsible? Yes. This line of thinking about how it takes two is very dangerous. I know there are all these 'tools' to deal with someone who is being verbally and emotionally abusive. The validating, the boundaries, and blah blah blah. But if someone is punching you in the face, is it wise to validate their punching? Nope. It's wise to run the F&CK away. So how is verbal and emotional abuse any different? It's not.

What is more useful than blaming yourself for their behavior is to detach yourself from it. It wasn't you. It was them. Part of detaching is easy. It is just detaching. For me, this is what no contact is about. Why would I want to be in contact with someone who has proven to be abusive? It's not like my ex is taking the time apart to think about her part in the r/s and doing the internal work to grow and be better. So why the H&LL would I want to be in contact with her? Sure. I miss her with every bone in my body. But I can deal with that. That isn't going to hurt me. That is my responsibility to deal with. What is going to hurt me is any form of contact with her whatsoever. I can change. Sure. But she isn't. There is no way. She went to three counciling sessions after we broke up because she was feeling suicidal. Her take away? I am 'bipolar'. Hilarious. I'm not bipolar in the least. What her experience of the relationship in order to get this take away is very telling. She would rage at me. I would get bummed out. She would wonder why I was bummed out and thought my behavior was very odd. Why? Because she took ZERO responsibility for her rages. It was like they never happened. And if she did remember, it was MY FAULT and so she was completely justified in doing it. The resulting depression I would sink into must therefore be because I have some kind of internal chemical issue (from her perspective). It has never ever crossed her mind that I would get bummed out because she would RAGE at me for nothing.

Anyhow, I'm ranting... .

My point is this. No contact is for you. It is for you to consider whether you really want this person in your life. For me, I have decided that she is poison. She is never going to change. She is always going to be needy. She is always going to want something from me (emotionally or otherwise). She doesn't want to be my friend because of me. She wants to be my friend in case she NEEDS something from me. F that. I have tons of friends. I would much rather invest in someone new. H&LL, I don't have enough time to invest in people that I already know are awesome.

To answer your original question... . when do you speak your truth? Do it now. Speak your truth to your friends and family. DO NOT SPEAK YOUR TRUTH TO YOU EX. AT ALL COSTS... . Trust me on that one. That will backfire. At the end of the day, who cares what she thinks and who cares what others think of her. Doesn't impact your life one bit. The best thing for you is that everyone around her thinks she amazing so that they can provide the narcissistic supply she needs and she won't be hunting around for you to supply it. No contact is for you to get to a place where you just don't give a ___ anymore. And, I'm hoping for me anyways... . that no contact leads me to a place where I don't care to be in 'no contact'. It will just be a given. I won't care anymore. I won't think about her anymore. And if I do, it will be with a fleeting What the heck was I thinking. That's my goal. I've been with crazy chicks before. And I have gotten to that place with all of them even though I never thought I would. So for me, 'no contact' right now is a conscious act. I'm hoping that with time that 'no contact' is no longer an active thing I need to do. It will just be 'I don't even think of this person anymore'.

Hope this helps. I'm tired. And rambling. Maybe some nuggets in there.
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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2014, 12:59:49 AM »

LivingLearning I tend to agree to a degree, while in some relationships with BPD's there can be a Co-Dependent partner suffering from the abuse due to being starry eyed over the idealization from the BPD, I feel I was a forced CODep because we had a child of which I did not have custody of yet.  Therefore if I leave, I'm cheated on, she gets with someone else, and I get to see my kid 3 months out of the year.  WOW what a warrior I am, what a strong person I am that I chose to stand up for my self.  

The first time I forgave her slightly questioned myself

The second time I forgave her yet really questioned myself seriously struggled with anxiety, pain, fear

After I got custody of my son after the second cheating, I started to check out I think honestly which is why I feel my healing process might not take that long.  Plus I have been through bad relationships before, or shall I say one's that ended painfully for me.  I might even be a bit emotionally closed off or well-guarded or regulated so that I can handle some types of trauma better, I have no idea.  I could be all wrong and tomorrow could be hell, who knows.

Back to your statement though, how about the first person in history that was ever sexually abused by their parent, it did not take two in that example.  The child lets say could not have defended themselves, a rape victim is a victim, in most cases unable to stop their offender, and when cheating occurs to us unbeknownst until they come home or tell us did we choose that, could we have defended ourselves from that?

If we had no child the first time she cheated on me, I would have probably left her, and after the second time I damn sure would have, I wrote that on 3 different forums in January that I can look to, and you know what... . I did leave her.

In closing I will say this, I was not perfect in that relationship by any means, and I am sure while I was hurt by this person I said some hurtful things back, you bet, which is normal yet still hurtful to her.  However people that cheat whether BPD or not try to rationalize or justify why they did it, they were unhappy, not enough attention, its all BS.  I did college every night for 2 hours or less after work online, after that I was free to spend time with her and family.  

What if it wasn't college, what if it was church, or playing basketball at the YMCA?  Would that have made any difference in her not cheating?

No, because of the type of person she is, and that's not my fault.  It's healthy to have some entertainment and interests in your life outside of your partner, she had none until she sobered up after cheating on me twice and then her interests became almost copies of mine when I broke up with her, sprucing up the house I left - I always did home improvement, cleaning more, I always made sure the house was clean on a nightly basis, I said for years we should scrapbook our good memories, she started scrapbooking after I broke up with her.

Ridiculous.
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2014, 01:05:06 AM »

Hey, thanks, and I'm tired too.

Crap, I Need to think about all this but your reply was really helpful. Really helpful. Will reread in the morning. Just kind of sad now and absorbing.

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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2014, 09:56:43 AM »

Right on point Mutt!

No contact is a temporary tool to give yourself space / time to heal. The goal is to detach, take this opportunity to understand BPD, learn that it's not something that is personal, it's an attachment disorder.

Think of it this way:

No Contact is a way to have a boundary when you have already established a pattern of not having one - severe, yes, but if you had proper emotional/physical/spiritual boundaries, frankly you wouldn't be here.
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2014, 10:22:34 AM »

Livinglearning,

No matter how good "no contact" would have been for me. I wasn't ready for years to go NC and had to speak my truth again and again from so many different angles. Looking back, I see how I used the relationship with my xBPDh as a vehicle to work through so many personal issues (unconsciously at the time). Because of my approach though, it will take me YEARS to rebuild my dignity and self-respect lost plus mend a very broken heart... . I wonder some days if I will ever be able to recover. I paid a big and risky price that many others here on this board are smart enough to avoid. Yet, my personal issues may have been deeper than others on this board and required a different approach. Who knows.

Ultimately, you decide what is best for you. It is great that you are educating yourself beforehand though. This is a great place to find out the risks of going down certain paths.

I love a good challenge. Thanks for sharing.
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2014, 10:42:58 AM »

I completely 100% agree with Seeking Balance here. If boundaries were strong, you wouldn't be here, I wouldn't be here, none of us would be here. We would have taken it once, said 'if you do that again, I'm leaving' and then when it happened again, we would have left. That's it. Over. No boards. No therapy. Done. Establishing No Contact is establishing a boundary. It's emotionally gut wrenching but the only thing that can be done. You probably aren't used to taking care of yourself. I know I wasn't. I totally suck at that. But it is worth learning otherwise the pattern will continue to repeat.
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2014, 06:31:31 PM »

This is an interesting thread for me and helpful in gaining insight. I am abit all over with this topic as am still in FOG with my uBPDex boyfriend - then friend. It does concern me that the "it takes two" stuff seems to be very prominent in alot of areas.

It makes me somewhat uncomfortable as some people are subject to quite strong abuse and really that means that getting out of situations is very difficult. 

In a respectful/healthy relationship boundaries to me can be discussed and then respected. Sadly for what I can understand of BPD this is not possible.

Abuse victims very often blame themselves, the abuser exerts control and power and encourages them to feel this way. Boundaries are possibly seen as challenges and the screws sometimes turned tighter.

I have had co dependency issues but I find getting out hard, not because I want/miss/need the person but because I feel FOG. I pray for them, they are very unwell.

In my opinion Adults can be preyed upon too, attributes exploited and used against them.

Then again I understand that perhaps I wouldn't be here if I had watched more closely for red flags, not believed his stories about the red flags. I was too trusting, too hopfull , and yes have tolerated too much so I can see that side... . I should have got out sooner. That then means though I have now to see what damage is done with my therapist. It would be a sad situation if I am not going to trust and believe people or offer help and support in case they abuse that.

Anyway am jumping in with ramblings so apologies if its all over the place.

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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2014, 06:53:29 PM »

I have control over what behaviors, actions that I will allow from others unto me. I have the ability to change and disengage from people that are exerting toxic behaviors. I have control of myself. So be it, if ex is trying to engage me to  soothe her anxiety, stress etc for her I choose to dis-engage and focus on something else in my life. Something positive, I choose to figure out why I ignored the red flags, why did I put up with the behaviors, what negative personality traits did I have that where triggers? What can I change in myself to lead to healthier relationships.

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“The universe is not short on wake-up calls. We’re just quick to hit the snooze button." - Brene Brown

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LivingLearning
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« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2014, 09:41:10 PM »

Thanks for the replies and support!

It means so much to me. To:

Mutt

awakenedo

Seeking balance

Willy45

I see you as perhaps thinking you're supporting me in some way, and I disagree.

I'm coming to see I wasn't responsible, it wasn't supportive, nor were your words, or healing.

After 20 years in therapy, yoga, and meditation I've come to realize there are some who are "tricksters". It doesn't mean one is vulnerable, or a "victim mentality", or any other problem. It means the victimizer is effective in choosing a victim. This doesn't make me succeptable, it makes me empowered. To notice. To avoid. To choose joy.

     In many cases it doesn't take two to tango. And realizing that is holding others RESPONSIBLE. Wishing their peace and joy, and not being afraid to give them the feedback that could help them because you come from a place of strength.
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« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2014, 10:06:05 PM »

This is a really interesting discussion.  Valid points on all sides.  I don't think my xBF was an intentional victimizer nor do I think I was an intentional victim.  He does try to "hide" his BPD behaviors.  Told me once he was always afraid in new relationships because he knew it "would all come out" eventually.  (His raging and verbal abuse.)  I think the fact that I was very vulnerable, a year out of a lousy marriage, made him more "confident" with me.  But I also question why I stayed as long as I did in our first go round.  Why I accepted the raging and verbal abuse.  When the beautiful and heartfelt next day apologies started to lose their luster. 

I am angry at him because he worked very hard to get me to come back to him and didn't keep his promises of support groups, therapy, etc.  Ended up hurting me deeply once again.  But I don't feel "victimized".  In a very real sense he's just not capable of doing it better.  I do take responsibility for going back to him based on "promises" when he hadn't taken any concrete actions yet. 
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« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2014, 10:23:14 PM »

So for the sake of discussion that could help me I just posted this:

"So when do I stop taking it? When do i speak my truth?

When do I stop assigning a BPD so much power that I need NC to protect myself?"

Interested in replies.

I thought I'd add my reply before reading what everyone else wrote.  I'm sure what they said is awesome, I just want to fly off the top of my head before I scroll down.

You ask an interesting question.

You should always speak your truth and not "take  it".  Yes, we do tend to give over our power in a BPD r/s, especially if we don't know that that is what we are in.  Those of us nons who approach life without the prism of the disorder tainting our vision may approach the world very different than those who have the disorder.  That is our truth.

Mind  you, a pwBPD... . well, that is their truth.  It isn't wrong.  It is just the way they see the world and react inside of the boundaries that their brains are wired for.

If you have separated from a pwBPD and there isn't a hope of trying to "work it out" - I have come to the conclusion (for me) that going NC is the only way to really separate and heal from the effects of such a relationship.

I have been LC with my ex-wife (diagnosed PD) since late last year (I last spoke on the phone with her in November)... . I haven't physically seen her since about September (I think)... . and then went total NC in February.  Well, up until a week ago when our daughter announced her engagement. 

During all this time... . it gave me space I needed so I could get away from the stressors and triggers and allow myself to really start to heal.  Yes, it wasn't easy brezzy breaking NC, but it's our child and our daughter was happy so it was time.  I always knew I wasn't doing NC to pretend my ex didn't exist - it was just to give me time to heal and get use to my "new life" without her.

Another issue popped up today which forced me to want to actually talk with her - so she phoned and we had a brief conversation.  It went a little longer than I had wanted - and near the end, some feeling started to pop up which reminded me of why I loved her in the first place.  But that's okay.  It's normal.

I was far enough removed from the day-to-day chaos drama that I could handle a few emotions being stirred.

Since our time apart, I have been able to get to a quiet place, reflect on me.  What brought me to the r/s.  What motivated me to act/react in the r/s the way I did- and what kept me in the cycle of chaos and drama that such a r/s brings.  this, of course was after coming here and learing more about the disorder - but more importantly, learning about myself more and what my "truths" actually were.

So now I feel more ready to speak with her and my boundaries are more defined.  My truths have substance and meaning (and since I have been in therapy for two years... . I think I have the backing of professionals to guide me).

When do you stop taking it?  That would be... . now!

When do you speak your truth?  That would be any time you are ready. (caveat to follow:  But speak your truth when you are at a place of peace and calmness for your happiness starts and ends with you!)

When do you stop giving a BPD your power? That would be... . anytime you want.
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« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2014, 10:31:24 PM »

What's the saying?  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.  

My ex fooled me once.  Shame on him.  My ex fooled me twice, shame on me.  

I'm not saying this to beat myself up about it but the reality is I stayed.  I stayed way too long.  

I clearly have some issues to have remained in a relationship like that.  My ex is responsible for bringing abuse to the table in our r/s.  I'm responsible for staying.  Two separate things.  The stuff over there is his stuff to deal with (or not).  The stuff over here, is mine to deal with (or not).  I'm choosing to deal with it so that I never wind up in an r/s like that again.  
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« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2014, 10:45:44 PM »

 

After reading through the replies - which were awesome (I knew they would be) - there are only two points which jumped out at me which I have to reply to.  Nazi's and Child Abuse.

There is a HUGE difference between being in a relationship with a person who suffers from BPD and the crimes that Nazi's and people who abuse children.  This is, of course, in response to "does it really take two".

In the case of a child being sexually abused - in just about any society... . this is totally frowned upon, for good reasons, but to liken the child to a "partner" in the abuse is, in a word, ludicrous.  They are the most innocent of innocent victims.  They don't ask for or go out of their way to be in that "situation".  it is put and placed upon them.

So... . no... . in any shape, form or fashion of the word - No... . it does not take two.

The same applies for the victims in Nazi Germany.  The unfortunate masses who were victimized had no power, no choice and didn't ask for it and didn't willingly participate in it. I'm postivive if they could have said "Uh... . no mein heir... . I'd prefer not to go on the train today"... . they probably would have.  

So, again, to draw that comparison is just ludicrous.

In a "normal" relationship - and we are talking consenting adults - no one is forcing you to stay.  As matter of fact, most people and societies couple up voluntarily.  And even when marriage is involved, you have every right to... . oh, I dunno - leave.

But inside of the relationship - even if one person is disordered, it takes two people to have the relationship continue down a path.  One person may be disordered, but the other person stays in the chaos and dysfunction.  Yes, I know there are reasons why people stay (financial, kids, and all the rest) - but what about when there is cheating, rages, lies, manipulations, break ups, recycles, push/pull... . no one puts a gun to the Non's head and orders "Stay!"

I was in my dance with my diagnosed wife for almost 20 years.  We have been together since she was 19 (she jjust turned 39).  Now we are separated and she got pregnant by my replacement shortly after she left.  We broke up and recycled (oh I lost count of how many times) before we got married.  Then were married for 13 years, raised my three kids from my previous marriage - and in the last 4 years of our marriage she went completely ragetastic. It was horrible.

But I stayed.  I initially thought when we would argue or fight or she would get on my nerves I could talk her into understanding that she was totally off base.  This just made things worse so we had a very high conflict r/s.

Well after the first round of cheating and breakup... . we stayed apart for 6 months... . but I let her come back and we tried it again.  This happened a few more times, and each time I kept going back and trying again. Nothing got "better" until I got custody of my girls and now we had a buffer.  

So when things finally totally ruptured (once the girls were grown), I threw in the towel. There was nothing I could do.  So I said it was time for the final split.  Not because I wanted to end our r/s... . but I didn't know what else to do.  Then things got worse (because I abandoned her).

Can't win for loosing.

Well it wasn't until I came here, learned about the disorder and what I had been dealing with - and was able to reflect on who and what I am (tracing it all the way back to my own childhood issues) was I able to understand that in our relationship - the dynamics of the conflict was the two of us.

I had my own issues - and she had hers.  I was viewing the world one way - and she another.

It took both of us inside our relationship to make it what it was.

oh... . she still has a diagnosed PD.  She is still quite emotional and can get off kilter if you look at her sideways.  But she is still a very intelligent, beauitiful woman... . who, unfortunately, I know I can't be involved with because the way I see the world is so vastly different than her that if we were to come together again, the same thing would happen and the r/s would be just as rocky.

That is also because, at this moment in my healing process, I'm focusing on me.  I need to heal.  I don't have space in my head (yet) to learn what I need to learn to be empathetic to her needs and to construct my behaviors around her to make it easier for her to deal with the world.

I need the attention I need to fix my  brokenness.

Yes... . it takes two.

(And for the record... . Nazi's and child molseters suck!)
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« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2014, 10:47:18 PM »

What's the saying?  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.  

My ex fooled me once.  Shame on him.  My ex fooled me twice, shame on me.  

I'm not saying this to beat myself up about it but the reality is I stayed.  I stayed way too long.  

I clearly have some issues to have remained in a relationship like that.  My ex is responsible for bringing abuse to the table in our r/s.  I'm responsible for staying.  Two separate things.  The stuff over there is his stuff to deal with (or not).  The stuff over here, is mine to deal with (or not).  I'm choosing to deal with it so that I never wind up in an r/s like that again.  

Very well said Blissful_Camper.  Very well said.

(BTW... . did you know in up-state California, there is a campground called "Happy Camp"?  Bit of trivia)
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« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2014, 10:51:28 PM »

Hey mutt,

In some ways I agree, in some ways I ask you for clarification.

Does it rally take two? I'm aware that's a popular idea in self help. Of which I'm no stranger for 2o years. Yet was that true in nazi germany? If not, why can't we see that down to personal encounters. Were the Jews participating?

I'm starting to realize despite pop psych, that maybe it doesn't take two. And that can be liberating. That maybe the kind, are good victims. That this doesn't mean it takes two, it took one. One person who was victimizing. And the irony is to realize that. And many people I. "Stockholm syndrome". Are drawn to see the fault in themselves, when there was none.

It's a new idea I've been exploring and finding great relief in.

Well let's see... . (you brought up the topic.).what would have changed if the Jews had gone total NC with the Nazis?  No harm would have come to the Jews.

""Stockholm syndrome". Are drawn to see the fault in themselves, when there was none.

A human being with no faults? Interesting concept.

Alanon doesn't work?

It all sounds like ego-centric, junk psychology to me.
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« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2014, 11:49:47 PM »

What's the saying?  Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.  

My ex fooled me once.  Shame on him.  My ex fooled me twice, shame on me.  

I'm not saying this to beat myself up about it but the reality is I stayed.  I stayed way too long.  

I clearly have some issues to have remained in a relationship like that.  My ex is responsible for bringing abuse to the table in our r/s.  I'm responsible for staying.  Two separate things.  The stuff over there is his stuff to deal with (or not).  The stuff over here, is mine to deal with (or not).  I'm choosing to deal with it so that I never wind up in an r/s like that again.  

Very well said Blissful_Camper.  Very well said.

(BTW... . did you know in up-state California, there is a campground called "Happy Camp"?  Bit of trivia)

Thank you Woodsposse.  I Googled "Happy Camp" and came across the community (the one with a Bigfoot statue) west of Yreka.  Is that the one?

If so, no Bigfoot sightings down south. These mountains may be too tall for him to climb.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2014, 11:53:57 PM »

That's the one!   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2014, 12:12:18 AM »

Shame is a really strong word, whether it's used once or twice. I'd actually offer- no shame, just quality judgment/discernment. Every time.

I believe "fool me once... . " is a Chinese Proverb.  

The reality is, I'm responsible for staying in a relationship with a man who was abusing me.  I could have left the r/s earlier but I didn't.  I'd like to think that one of the reasons I stayed was because I knew on an unconscious level that I had some pretty heavy inner work to do.  I was drawn to that r/s because that's what I needed at the time to facilitate change within myself.  That r/s was the event that forced me to go further inward than I've gone before.  I thought that I was done with FOO issues a long time ago.  What a rude awakening, but what an opportunity to *grow* and hopefully reach my true potential.  

Blissful "feeling her optimism returning" Camper.  
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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2014, 12:15:15 AM »

That's the one!   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Awesome!  Being cool (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2014, 12:37:33 AM »

After I broke up with my first BPD ex, now some 6 years ago I didn't do any work because I didn't have a clue what I was dealing with. I was convinced that I was a failure and not worthy of any love because that's what she and her family had been telling me for 8 years straight.

And sure enough, I fell right back in to the arms of yet another BPD. Coincidence? I think not.

Luckily the last one was such a textbook BPD that I was just bound to find out sooner or later. In a way she she has given me an tremendous gift, the opportunity to heal and finally become a man instead of a broken boy, and I'll gladly do the necessary work.

First step though is to completely accept my part in it, the BPD just does what the BPD does, no need to blame them. Are you going to blame a scorpion for stinging you if you try to pet it? Yes, it was my choice to step into these 'relationships' and more importantly to stay in them and I'm starting to clearly see the reasons for that now... .
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« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2014, 07:02:54 AM »

LivingLearning

Like you, I am very interested in the idea of it taking two to tango. If any of us entered into a r'ship with a BPD knowing that we had emotional deficits and exactly what they were and how we got them, then yes. We are fully responsible for our predicament. However the nature of the disorder is that one is hooked/emotionally engaged before ever understanding the nature of the engagement. Do all BPD's systematically and purposefully set out to addict someone, hook them in then abuse them? I don't know. Maybe they are as much a victim to their condition as we are. BUT I know that I had NO CLUES about the disorder before being engaged with people who had it. Plus I spent my whole life blaming myself for all the things BPDm made me responsible for as well as all those amorphous broken things I could not name. The friendships and romantic r'ships that went so horribly wrong as I was searching out painful experiencing. Had I known that would I have done it? HELL no!

So I blame. i blame the people who were responsible for THEIR behaviour. I blame me for the mistakes I make but then after that blaming doesn't serve any purpose except as a predecessor to as much forgiveness as is possible. in some cases that's very little or none at all.

As far as NC goes, I can easily see how I would use that as a weapon and a power tool. So I'm obviously not looking at it in a useful way for my own benefit. But at least I'm being honest. Work out what you want from NC as honestly as you can. And I personally think it's absolutely critical to get blame off yourself for the things you didn't do. From there, you can better see the things you DID do and hopefully avoid them in the future.

PS Thanks for asking the 'ambassador' question, man. i've wondered too. Maybe it's like the Freemasons - only freemasons know?

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« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2014, 10:00:39 AM »

This thread is exactly what I needed to read.  I've been back and forth about No Contact for my situation.

No Contact was broken by me days ago, and though urges arise, I have been strong enough to fight those urges for further rekindling types of contact.  I stopped telling him that I love him and that I miss him, regardless of the times when it's true.  I am on the opposite side of the country from him, but I plan to return from that city by the end of next year, and I have to be prepared for the possibility of seeing him and / or hearing from him again.  I have to be able to get myself strong enough to be able to see him again and not just fall right into his trap.  Perhaps it's just my makeup, but I feel as though I will be better off detaching without having to go full No Contact.  I am still very much addicted to him, but the insight and self-awareness that I have gained from being involved with him puts my whole world in perspective.  If I can't function without the fear of being contacted by him, then I'm no good to myself.  I have to be stronger than my fear and overcome it within myself.  I have to detach myself from my own feelings for / of / about him.  I have to allow myself the test of him.  He will always be "with" me in the sense that I will never forget him or what he has, whether inadvertently or not, taught me about myself.  He was always be 'that one' that I think about... . at least, that is where my head is at this moment.  It's not fair to someone else that deserves my love if I'm still thinking of him, but the possibility does exist.  He has had a very profound effect on my life and he's changed me in a very deep and unforgettable way, so he will always be with me in some respect. 

Admittedly, he is not pestering me or bothering me in any way (yet?) and though I have a very vague expectation of future revival contact, I don't know that he ever will.  He is so 'hurt' by what I've 'done to him' that I don't expect the kind of apology that someone else got from him while he and I were involved.  So I'm not sure he has any reasons to contact me, and I may not even have to worry about it.  But I do need to be prepared.
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« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2014, 11:24:35 AM »

When I went NC I was extricating myself from an abusive r/s.  That was for me, not him.  Now NC has new meaning.  Why would I want to engage with anyone who is abusive?  

Blissful "selective about who she spends her time with" Camper
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