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Author Topic: He won't let me go  (Read 7389 times)
Boss302
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« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2014, 11:33:34 AM »

Still getting more.

"I'm flying blind.  I have nothing but time to sit and think of this.  There is a good side and a bad side of this.  You're on the good side.  Unfortunately I'm on the bad end.  Sucks having kids and loving someone.  If you would talk to me that would mean a lot.  I'm on the brink."

This is something you need to respond to, I think - it's involving your child. I'd tell him you have no problem with him having visitation (assuming you don't, of course - if there is an issue with that, then that's another story) and would be willing to hash out a schedule, but don't engage with him on the other stuff. You've made your position clear and that's that. He'll use the visitation negotiations as an opportunity to re-engage with you emotionally, but again... . keep it BIFF. Work the problem. If he wants to go round and round with you after you propose something, respond with something like "I've gone on record supporting your basic visitation rights and have proposed a visitation schedule. If you're on board with it, please let me know. If I don't hear back, then I'll assume what I have proposed is acceptable, and will go forward with putting it in writing and making it official."

It's important to be on record as supporting his parental rights, though. BPDs have a very bad habit of throwing that in your face, and making a legal issue of it, so make sure you're being reasonable and that the conversations are all "on record."

By the way, HIGH FIVE on feeling better and more in control about the communications. Keep it up - this CAN be done! Smiling (click to insert in post)
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razemarie
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« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2014, 11:48:18 AM »

He has always had the option to see our son as often as he'd like.  In fact I have strongly encouraged it.  But he has never ventured out of the every other Friday and Saturday night routine that we implemented when our son was about a 1.5 years old (he is now 3.5).  At the time my ex was still drinking (he is a recovering alcoholic) but would refrain during the time he had our son.  To be honest I didn't trust him to properly take care of him more than that.  The first year of my child's life his dad was not in the picture by his own choice.  But since he got sober (one year ago) I have strongly urged him to take a more active role in our son's life.  He has chosen not to despite all of the messages he sends me stating how much he misses our son and is missing out on being in his life everyday.  The sad part is that he only lives about fifteen minutes from us.  But maybe that has been a good thing in disguise.  My son has never seen us fight in front of him.  But I am sure he has sensed the tension.  I moved out when he was only three months old.  So I am thankful for that.  The only life my son knows is the two of us living in separate houses and seeing his dad every other weekend.  He seems pretty well adjusted to it.  I more or less raise my son on my own.

As for the texts I got yesterday, I decided not to respond.  After I read it last night and posted about it, I decided to put it away and enjoy the rest of my night. It's funny when I look back at old emails/texts, I would always instantly respond, try to explain or defend myself and then get angry which just escalated things and caused him to get even worse.  At the time I thought I was dealing with someone who processed things the way I do.  Now I see that I just enforced the behavior and escalated it with my responses.  I'm learning!
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Boss302
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« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2014, 12:44:32 PM »

He has always had the option to see our son as often as he'd like.  In fact I have strongly encouraged it.  But he has never ventured out of the every other Friday and Saturday night routine that we implemented when our son was about a 1.5 years old (he is now 3.5).  At the time my ex was still drinking (he is a recovering alcoholic) but would refrain during the time he had our son.  To be honest I didn't trust him to properly take care of him more than that.  The first year of my child's life his dad was not in the picture by his own choice.  But since he got sober (one year ago) I have strongly urged him to take a more active role in our son's life.  He has chosen not to despite all of the messages he sends me stating how much he misses our son and is missing out on being in his life everyday.  The sad part is that he only lives about fifteen minutes from us.  But maybe that has been a good thing in disguise.  My son has never seen us fight in front of him.  But I am sure he has sensed the tension.  I moved out when he was only three months old.  So I am thankful for that.  The only life my son knows is the two of us living in separate houses and seeing his dad every other weekend.  He seems pretty well adjusted to it.  I more or less raise my son on my own.

As for the texts I got yesterday, I decided not to respond.  After I read it last night and posted about it, I decided to put it away and enjoy the rest of my night. It's funny when I look back at old emails/texts, I would always instantly respond, try to explain or defend myself and then get angry which just escalated things and caused him to get even worse.  At the time I thought I was dealing with someone who processed things the way I do.  Now I see that I just enforced the behavior and escalated it with my responses.  I'm learning!

Yes, you are!

Some observations... . first, I'd make sure that everything's on email (unless you can indefinitely save and print out your texts), and second, I would like you to consider having some kind of formal visitation arrangement in place that's enforceable in a court of law. That way, there's no conflict about who sees the kid when (i.e., "that's what's in our custody agreement and court orders, so you need to honor that", and frankly, if your ex wants you back, he might "launch" the kid back at you during times when you don't have him to sabotage your dating life (assuming you eventually want to wade back into that pool).

It's best for your arrangements with your ex to be as structured as possible.
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razemarie
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« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2014, 12:49:00 PM »

Yes, he has played that game with me before.  Telling me about an hour before he is supposed to pick up our son that he suddenly can't watch him because he is too emotionally distraught over what I am doing.  He has also used the child support money (again, no legal contract) as a way to try and control me.  The last time this happened I made it very clear that the next step is legal action.  So far he has been good since then.  But I am prepared to take the next step if it happens again.  And somehow I know it will happen again.  There will be no more warnings.  If he uses our son or child support money as a way to try and manipulate me, then I will take legal action.  I just know that when it gets to that point he will start the smear campaign.  Not looking forward to that at all.
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razemarie
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« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2014, 12:50:59 PM »

Also... . I have started to respond to him only through email.  I am hoping he will eventually switch to that when he realizes that is the only way I respond.  In the mean time I am forwarding his texts to my email account and saving them in a folder in case I ever need them.
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razemarie
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« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2014, 12:56:50 PM »

One concern I have if I take legal action is that he has a shady work agreement with his employer.  He is in the construction field and works roughly 50-60 per week. However he is only paid for 40 and the rest of the hours are "banked" for the winter months when he laid off.  During that time he files unemployment and gets the rest of the money "under the table."  I prepared his taxes last year and he explained why his 1099 showed such a small annual salary compared to what he told me he makes.  I am guessing the courts will only use the amount he filed on his taxes.  If that is the case I will end up with less financial support than I get now.
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woodsposse
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« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2014, 01:40:01 PM »

One concern I have if I take legal action is that he has a shady work agreement with his employer.  He is in the construction field and works roughly 50-60 per week. However he is only paid for 40 and the rest of the hours are "banked" for the winter months when he laid off.  During that time he files unemployment and gets the rest of the money "under the table."  I prepared his taxes last year and he explained why his 1099 showed such a small annual salary compared to what he told me he makes.  I am guessing the courts will only use the amount he filed on his taxes.  If that is the case I will end up with less financial support than I get now.

I had to jump in at this point and offer some very sound advice.

First, in my humble opinion, you shouldn't wait until a next time to get the legal process going.  Chances are very very high that there will be a next time - and when that happens your emotions will want to override your intellect.

Second, the court will decide what amount of support your child is required to have regardless of how he works.  Period.  So unless you get the legal paperwork knocked out, you are still at his whim and emotional manipulation.  It is harder for him to manipulate the court. 

So I wouldn't be too concerned about what is under the table - and I would certainly not repeat in public that you know he is cheating the government in unemployment and taxes.  That can come back to bite you.

I would go total hands off... . go to court, get your child support papers in order and go on with your life.

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razemarie
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« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2014, 02:06:06 PM »

No, I would never discuss any of this publicly.  Just a concern that I am facing.  When I try to calculate what amount of support I would get through the state it tells me $0.00 based on what he claimed in taxes and with what he currently pays his ex-wife in child support for the other two children.  I make just enough to survive and support my son and I.  We live check to check.  That is including the money I get from my ex now.  So while the thought of handling things through the courts sounds like the right thing to do and something I ultimately want to do to gain control over my life, I am not sure I could support myself without any help from him.  Feels like I am stuck between a rock and a hard place.
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woodsposse
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« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2014, 02:21:45 PM »

No, I would never discuss any of this publicly.  Just a concern that I am facing.  When I try to calculate what amount of support I would get through the state it tells me $0.00 based on what he claimed in taxes and with what he currently pays his ex-wife in child support for the other two children.  I make just enough to survive and support my son and I.  We live check to check.  That is including the money I get from my ex now.  So while the thought of handling things through the courts sounds like the right thing to do and something I ultimately want to do to gain control over my life, I am not sure I could support myself without any help from him.  Feels like I am stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I totally understand that.  Of course, you know fully the dynmics of your situation and I have every confidence you will do what you think is best!  I'm sure I can speak for all of us here - we support you!
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Boss302
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« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2014, 05:14:19 PM »

No, I would never discuss any of this publicly.  Just a concern that I am facing.  When I try to calculate what amount of support I would get through the state it tells me $0.00 based on what he claimed in taxes and with what he currently pays his ex-wife in child support for the other two children.  I make just enough to survive and support my son and I.  We live check to check.  That is including the money I get from my ex now.  So while the thought of handling things through the courts sounds like the right thing to do and something I ultimately want to do to gain control over my life, I am not sure I could support myself without any help from him.  Feels like I am stuck between a rock and a hard place.

This brings up a good question: do you really need his money to get by? If not, you may want to think about foregoing it. My SO ended up doing that with her ex.

Child support and alimony almost inevitably lead to conflict, and conflict with a BPD sufferer, as you're learning, is harmful to your mental health. It also ties you to him, in a way. Maybe you're better off without it.
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razemarie
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« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2014, 03:37:57 PM »

I am trying to put together a budget that will support my son and I without his money in case it comes to that.  But it would be very tough. 
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woodsposse
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« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2014, 04:06:07 PM »

 

The BEST thing I ever did was go to court and get custody of my girls. We had initially had an agreement between the two of us to share custody - but I knew that wouldn't last very long, so I took her to court... . yes, sheet flew hard and fast at me... . but in the end, the courts granted me custody and she had to pay child support.

She paid it willingly until the last child was 18... . because I kept my finger on the speed dial to the lawyer and court!  That pretty much shut her non-sense down.
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razemarie
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« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2014, 04:18:15 PM »

I'm sure it will eventually come to that.  He has always told me that he will quit his job and work for cash if I try to get child support money. He does pay me a weekly amount right now that we agreed upon.  I'm sure that is just another one of his threats.  But it has scared me away from filing the paperwork in the past. 
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Boss302
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« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2014, 04:32:09 PM »

I'm sure it will eventually come to that.  He has always told me that he will quit his job and work for cash if I try to get child support money. He does pay me a weekly amount right now that we agreed upon.  I'm sure that is just another one of his threats.  But it has scared me away from filing the paperwork in the past. 

In Colorado, that's called "willful underemployment." And then the judge imputes income based on the payor's potential earnings.

If you intend to get child support, you should definitely look up the laws in your state.
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razemarie
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« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2014, 07:58:00 PM »

Thanks.  I will read up on the laws for my state.  What a mess everything is.
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Panda39
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« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2014, 08:26:21 PM »

I would suggest going for formal child support and custody also.  The message that you are done with this relationship will eventually sink in and your ex may then withhold the money that he is voluntarily giving you now. 

You may or may not get as much as you do now through the court but it will be yours legally and you will have recourse if payments aren't made in the future. 

One other thing that you should weigh is that your BPDex may suddenly want more custody.  More Custody = Less Child Support and might also mean more contact with you.  You've indicated that you are ok with him having more visitation.  I know you want your son to spend more time with dad but remember dad is a pwBPD and you know how difficult that is to negotiate imagine how hard this could become for your son... . Just food for thought.

You sound like your holding your own... . keep up the good work and contact to a minimum 
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« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2014, 08:30:57 PM »

You've indicated that you are ok with him having more visitation.  I know you want your son to spend more time with dad but remember dad is a pwBPD and you know how difficult that is to negotiate imagine how hard this could become for your son... . Just food for thought.

It's the child's right to have unconditional love for either parent, regardless of the conflict between both parents. It's not the parents right.

Minimize conflict with parallel parenting if needed, if things improve, come down to co-parenting.
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Panda39
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« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2014, 09:46:43 PM »

You've indicated that you are ok with him having more visitation.  I know you want your son to spend more time with dad but remember dad is a pwBPD and you know how difficult that is to negotiate imagine how hard this could become for your son... . Just food for thought.

It's the child's right to have unconditional love for either parent, regardless of the conflict between both parents. It's not the parents right.

Minimize conflict with parallel parenting if needed, if things improve, come down to co-parenting.

Mutt your are absolutely right about a child's right to unconditionally love their parents and razemarie knows her situation best and I know will make good decisions for her son. I did not mean to imply that she not allow him to see his father.

I am coming from a perspective of a stepmom watching 2 kids trying to figure out how to negotiate their uBPD mom and her many issues. It is hard to watch sometimes and even harder to help them so I'll be honest and say sometimes I just wish the interaction was not as frequent. I have never told either of them to stop loving their mom I know they do and always will in spite of her problems.
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« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2014, 10:17:10 PM »

You are right that it is extremely difficult with a BPD, when it comes to parenting. I have a SD, I have a strong r/s with her SM, and understand the trials of a secondary non.   It may be even more difficult because of the animosity, jealousy and hatred a BPD has for an attachment's SO. I'm going to say, from my exchanges with my friend / her SM, it's tougher. My heart goes out to you.

I understand you don't advocate alienation, it's her ex, she understands him best. If he's barely seeing the child now, judges will look at the current parenting time and base it on that. That's his choice, no one elses.
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razemarie
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« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2014, 03:58:50 PM »

It's been a while since I have posted an update.  I wish I could say that the FOG is thinning but he still refuses to let go.  It's like he has become obsessed with getting me to respond to him and give him another chance.  He does not follow my boundaries: not texting unless it is an emergency that has to do with our son, Keeping his messages limited to issues regarding our son, sticking to just emails, etc.  He calls and texts all the time.  On top of that I get several emails per day.  I do not read them each day.  I forward everything to my email and pick one day a week to read them and respond.  Today happens to be the day and reading this stuff is really messing with my head.  In his mind he thinks that it was one thing he did that caused our relationship to end.  He is in complete denial about all of the emotional abuse that he put me through and all of the damage his previous drinking habit caused.  I have stuck to my boundaries and never caved.  I am down to responding to all messages only one day per week and only responding the issues that need a response.  Everything else I ignore.  I had felt like I was making a lot of personal progress and breaking free of this cycle, but all of this seems to just suck me back into his chaotic mind.  In his way, I know that he loves me.  But he destroys me in the process.  I see why I always ended up going back in the past.  Because it was so much easier than dealing with this madness everyday.  I feel like I'm stuck in a cage and can't get out.  The email I got today was so long and detailed.  He is trying to reassure me about every issue we have ever had.  I know that it's all lies and his perception on things that I am reading.  I know this and I know all of the horrible things he has done and said.  I am not going to go back to him.  I just want it to stop.  Thanks for letting me vent.
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« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2014, 04:13:39 PM »

It sounds like he's headed for an extinction burst razemarie. I know that this is difficult, easier said than done. It's difficult to detach and it's a process. You're doing good so far from where I'm looking at. The emotional stuff coming from him when you read it, tugs at the heartstrings doesn't it? I suggest skimming that stuff in an email and look for things for the kid. He'll likely say anything, dissociate to get you back.

He's testing your boundaries, I recall my wife saying " I do what I want" which to me means disrespect for my boundaries, like a small child flailing against us not understanding boundaries. Soon to be ex hubs will get the message.

Think of an extinction burst as things getting worst then it dies down, it's that peak that he's reaching. Do you recall how difficult it is to hear S3 when you took his soother away (I'm speculating that he did) and all of the crying and how difficult and grating that is on the nerves? The baby is accustomed to that soother and want it back. But it stops, your son calmed down, he went through an extinction burst. I recall how hard it was on me with my first born. Keep doing what your doing, it'll get better. It's hard I know  but you're making positive progress.
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razemarie
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« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2014, 11:05:46 PM »

Thanks Mutt.  As usual I appreciate your feedback.  I think you are right and I just need to tough this out.  It definitely tugs on my heartstrings though.  There is no getting around that fact.  As much as I would like this process to go faster, it doesn't seem to work that way.
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« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2014, 11:37:45 PM »

You're welcome razemarie. This is really tough while your detaching and his behaviors get more erratic. Here's more information  on "extinction bursts" to understand. Stay the course, this will taper off.

Here is a 2 min video on youtube on how extinction burst works

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqHfEJt1ZV4

Common Trap: Remember, you don't want to inadvertently give them intermittent reinforcement to dysregulated behavior. This is easy to do, and once established extremely difficult to unlearn.

Intermittent reinforcement: slot machines use this. They pay out on irregular schedules. You never know when you will win, but you know that if you keep pulling the handle that sooner or later a pay out will occur. It may happen on the third pull or the twentieth pull, but you will win if you keep trying. The fact that you KNOW that you will eventually win, keeps you hooked into trying.

What does this mean? If you tell your partner that you won't answer the phone while at work, and they call you 20 times, and you answer on the 21st attempt, you have just inadvertantly given them intermittent reinforcement. Now they know that if they bug you enough, that you will always eventually respond. This actually escalates the behavior you are trying to stop. They believe they can win if they just keep pulling the lever, even if they go broke trying, they will keep at it. The more irregular and unpredictable your response to them, the more they will keep trying. It is the combination of hoping they will get their way and not knowing when it will happen that keeps them trying.

How to discourage dysregulated behavior.?

Consistency in not responding is the only way to discourage undesired behavior... .

Your partner has to learn that  when you say no, that you mean no.  Any hint of weakness is a reward, encouraging him/her to continue trying.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0
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« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2014, 07:39:01 PM »

Staff only

This topic is now locked and updated here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=229399.0

Waverider
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