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Author Topic: What we are stuck in  (Read 3280 times)
Blimblam
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« on: July 23, 2014, 03:27:21 PM »

Were stuck in our own narcissism

We are faced with the terrifying reality BPDs face their entire lives which is facing the reality that who we think we are or were is a lie.  A persona a mask.  This is the cold hard truth.  Everyone is, it is a part of us.  What has been brought to the surface is all the parts of ourselves we hide from.  It hurts so bad because it is in conflict of who we like to think of ourselves as.
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2014, 03:50:02 PM »

Narcissism can be used around these boards as if it is all bad - be mindful that there is a healthy narcissism, many therapists and books discuss this too.

What part of your own narcissistic traits has you posting such an "open-ended" post - a lot of directions this one could go?  Sounds like you are doing a lot of soul searching Blimblam.
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Aussie JJ
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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2014, 04:23:09 PM »

If you read up on narcissistic qualities, we are suffering from a narcissistic wound.  My perception and I am no expert however for me.  Everything about me was perfect.  I was everything and then some.  Built up to think I was invincible.  My ego went through the roof and I could do no wrong with this woman.  I was 100 % perfection. 

Then piece by piece I was dismantled as a person.  My true reality that was grounded and functional was ripped apart.  That is a narcasistic wound but different.  A narcissist will drop and run with the first insult, we endured it for a very long time.  I became that way due to being built up like that.  Then I endured the dismantling of that reality.   For a narcissist they are never going to admit fault. 

It will always be someone else's fault and they were correct!  Their isn't many here who haven't asked the question, what if? 

It is valid and it keeps us tortured.  We are dealing with our own sense of self that has been ripped apart.  Now the process for me is questioning everything to rebuild that and be 'healthy' again. 
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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2014, 04:24:11 PM »

Yes sb I have been.  I will later once I can typ on a computer I can't keep up with my thought in a phone, start to cover different aspects of what I talk mean.

I'm not saying that our narcissism is good or bad it has the potential to do both.  But what can be good for me may harm you and I can be blinded by narcissism so that I can continue survcng without missing a step.  We vest our identity in the narcissism which views itself as seperate from everything else. It is a survival mechanism.

I had some realizations on how my narcissism interacted with the disorder and created the fantasy.  I'll get into this later.  What I can say now is most of my fantasy broke with these realizations and filled in most of a empty pit feeling I had in my chest.
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« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2014, 04:30:06 PM »

If you read up on narcissistic qualities, we are suffering from a narcissistic wound.  My perception and I am no expert however for me.  Everything about me was perfect.  I was everything and then some.  Built up to think I was invincible.  My ego went through the roof and I could do no wrong with this woman.  I was 100 % perfection. 

Then piece by piece I was dismantled as a person.  My true reality that was grounded and functional was ripped apart.  That is a narcasistic wound but different.  A narcissist will drop and run with the first insult, we endured it for a very long time.  I became that way due to being built up like that.  Then I endured the dismantling of that reality.   For a narcissist they are never going to admit fault. 

It will always be someone else's fault and they were correct!  Their isn't many here who haven't asked the question, what if? 

It is valid and it keeps us tortured.  We are dealing with our own sense of self that has been ripped apart.  Now the process for me is questioning everything to rebuild that and be 'healthy' again. 

Very good insight Aussie jj

I'm not referring to npd.  I agree were were conditioned to build a narcissistic fantasy by our exs. And the more we examine it the more we can break the bond when we take responsibility for our part.  Would you care to share what you have found so far?
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« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2014, 04:45:22 PM »

 What I can say now is most of my fantasy broke with these realizations and filled in most of a empty pit feeling I had in my chest.

Looking forward to seeing you elaborate on this... .I, too, had to let go of Disney and had to grow up and see people for who they were, including myself.  Not easy or fun, but necessary.
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« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2014, 04:59:33 PM »

I don't understand it enough yet.  I have done the reading, looked at the patterns that occurred and I know what the outcome will be if I ever go back there.  To elaborate I have to understand myself a bit better and how I interacted in this dynamic. 

I am trying to understand how I accepted it I  the first place still.  Some of the e-mails in the history make me just ball my eyes out.  The absolute love what existed and was shared between us.  I, as everyone else here know that for me.  It was real.  The problem was it was perfect real.  Their was no middle ground and at the end it was a pain so total and brutal that I am still amazed by it. 

I have to accept that it was real for me.  It was all of that and then some.  I also sort of 'feel my feelings' and know what I'm experiencing at any given time.  These are real as well and I have been conditioned to shut them down and think they are wrong.  This is so painful as their is 3 years of abuse to process. 

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« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2014, 06:54:26 PM »

 What I can say now is most of my fantasy broke with these realizations and filled in most of a empty pit feeling I had in my chest.

Looking forward to seeing you elaborate on this... .I, too, had to let go of Disney and had to grow up and see people for who they were, including myself.  Not easy or fun, but necessary.

I can elaborate a little bit now.  I am still typing on an I phone and cAnt type fast enough to keep up with my thoughts so it comes out fragmented. 

What happened was I realized how much of my fantasy of how I perceived the reality was a patch work of my narcissism and it patched up a part of a barier between my uncoincious repressed emotions and my concious awareness but I have an awareness that it is part of my narcissistic persona or ego or whatever my sense of self.  I could probably forget the feeling In my chest that still exists and repress it at this point. But I am trying to stay with it because I want to process as much as possible. 

The dominant somatic feeling is now in my gut.
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2014, 07:05:09 PM »

Before I ask follow up, I want to make sure I understand what you are saying:

What happened was I realized how much of my fantasy of how I perceived the reality was a patch work of my narcissism and it patched up a part of a barier between my uncoincious repressed emotions and my concious awareness but I have an awareness that it is part of my narcissistic persona or ego or whatever my sense of self. 

What (clinical or other) definition of narcissism are you using as your starting point?

Are you using ego and sense of self interchangeably?

In the opening post, you use the words "we are stuck in our own narcissism" - are you posting as the collective group or is it more "I am stuck" and wondering who feels the same way you do?

Thanks for continuing to elaborate - interesting train of thought.
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2014, 07:51:33 PM »

I have read more psychology texts in the last six months than I can count. Studies of "self" and "attachment" and "relationships" and "intrapsychic" dynamics and "schemas" etc. I have explored schools of cognitive behavioral therapy, and gestalt, and psychodynamic theory.  And, yes, it has given me perspective and some insight and some understanding I did not possess before.

Did I have a "narcissistic injury" after abandonment? Sure.  Did I cling to my pain because letting go meant I would let go of part of me? Likely.  Was I trauma bonded? Probably.  Was I addicted in some way to my ex? It sure felt like it.

There's an inherent risk in all of this:  Sometimes when we diagnose ourselves, we immediately think we need "fixing." 

Here is my own truth, as I see it-- it was only when I dropped out of my brain and into my own emotions that my perspective changed.  That is when I started to relate much, much differently to the disaster of my relationship.  I reclaimed me.

When we just "feel" with awareness, we let ourselves be human.  Messy, alive, and authentic.

Just as life is fluid -- "self" is fluid.  It's like a river, ever shifting, ever changing.   All at the same time I am a son, a father, a divorced dad, a friend, an employee, a surfer, a bicyclist, a meditator, a heartbroken person, a loved person, a confused person, a moderately confident person [et cetera, et cetera].  I am sure I will note other things as my life evolves.

No matter how pained we feel, or how broken we feel, or shattered, or shamed, or traumatized -- there is a fundamental essence in each of us that is untarnished and authentic and waiting for us to reclaim.
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2014, 08:20:41 PM »

I have read more psychology texts in the last six months than I can count. Studies of "self" and "attachment" and "relationships" and "intrapsychic" dynamics and "schemas" etc. I have explored schools of cognitive behavioral therapy, and gestalt, and psychodynamic theory.  And, yes, it has given me perspective and some insight and some understanding I did not possess before.

Did I have a "narcissistic injury" after abandonment? Sure.  :)id I cling to my pain because letting go meant I would let go of part of me? Likely.  Was I trauma bonded? Probably.  Was I addicted in some way to my ex? It sure felt like it.

There's an inherent risk in all of this:  Sometimes when we diagnose ourselves, we immediately think we need "fixing."  

Here is my own truth, as I see it-- it was only when I dropped out of my brain and into my own emotions that my perspective changed.  That is when I started to relate much, much differently to the disaster of my relationship.  I reclaimed me.

When we just "feel" with awareness, we let ourselves be human.  Messy, alive, and authentic.

Just as life is fluid -- "self" is fluid.  It's like a river, ever shifting, ever changing.   All at the same time I am a son, a father, a divorced dad, a friend, an employee, a surfer, a bicyclist, a meditator, a heartbroken person, a loved person, a confused person, a moderately confident person [et cetera, et cetera].  I am sure I will note other things as my life evolves.

No matter how pained we feel, or how broken we feel, or shattered, or shamed, or traumatized -- there is a fundamental essence in each of us that is untarnished and authentic and waiting for us to reclaim.

Well the understanding came after breaking nc.  And the next day I couldn't barely move and I just laid there accepting defeat. Like the Pema chodrin quote I removed the story and just found comfort in the emptiness. I laid there like that for probably 5 or 6 hours just embracing it.

Later that day I was reading the forums and responding and a bunch of the ideas from people's experiences sort of came together and I had a realization that I am still experiencing.  The main portion of this realization happened over a period of about 3 hours and them all of a sudden I found a bunch of parts of myself again and felt the emptiness congeal this feeling started about 3 days ago when I began feeling a good intense heat in my chest start to fill in the emptiness.  

I have always sort of processed things this way it's starts as intention, I was wanting to take responsibility for my part of the interaction. Then there was a lot of confusion then I had to surrender to that somatic feeling then as I processed it I gained a lot of insights and had some epiphanies that my mind put into a contextual framework.  My Myers Briggs type is infp so it is very inline with how my personality type processes things. I definately had to let go of my mind trying to make sense of things before it was able to

I understand my role in te relationships now how and why we attached.  I have to find a good way to write it. It began as a feeling and a lot of fragmented memories that I sort of relived in a different light.
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2014, 08:28:10 PM »

I cant quote on the phone however lettinggo14 that last paragraph is very true.  

The concept of a false self and a real self.  I have to look up something I found earlier and post here its another triangle!  

Rogers Conception of Self

The three sides of the triangle are composed of the:  

Perceived Self (how person sees self & and others see them)

The Real Self (how person really is)

Ideal Self (how person would like to be)

Now for this, a equalatral triangle is someone that is balanced.  They know where they want to be and have a accurate view of themselves.  Their is no ego overriding everything else.  Self aware individual.  

For someone with NPD or BPD their view of themselves is more squed towards the ideal self / perceived self.  They see themselves as oh so good and reality / self awareness isn't existant.  They cant see the factual reality of their actions or their true behaviours.  

I don't have the book I got this from.  It sort of lets you put yourself in a triangle and see what you are balance wise.  

ATM my perceived self is starting to be reigned back in.  I have been trained / conditioned to think I am bad, evil unworthy.  When this perception exists it is depression.  I am getting out of this.  Slowly but surely my perception of myself (perceived self) has been aligned closed to the real self and ideal self.  I am gaining balance again.  

Now you go back to the start of the BPD relationship and the triangle due to everything about us being perfect would have had us all looking like NPD/BPD scale of things.  We had a false perception of how good we were.  

Then it got broken down to the depression side of the triangle with our view of ourselves erroded.  Still the false perception but so far away from the ideal self that we are depressed.  

We are in the process of reclaiming our true authentic self.  Essentially the view that we hold of ourselves is balanced.  What we see isn't a lie built up to grandiose proportions or a person torn to shreds by abuse.  We are seeing ourselves for who we really are, acknowledge our faults and working on them while also seeing our strengths.  
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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2014, 08:35:21 PM »

Very insightful ajj thanks for posting that.  I think I came off as negative In my op.  But that post is totally inline with my concept I feel.  I think I need to explore it on pen and paper I'll type aspects of it when my internet on my computer is working.  That last post will give me some good words to decipher the concept as the insight was how I related to my BPD in the rs and I didn't really experience it in words.
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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2014, 09:07:35 PM »

I'm realizing expressing this is going to be a larger endeavor than I previously thought.  I experienced it like watching a film with a bunch of flashbacks.  But with pure emotion felt as a somatic experience enstead of background music telling me how to feel
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Aussie JJ
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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2014, 09:37:54 PM »

I'm at work and don't have a lot of my stuff on me at present, trying to work through this off my experiences.   

If you were to stand back or observe yourself objectively as a person.  For a day week or year.  Study how you interact with people and conduct yourself in life.  That would be an objective view of the real you.  No emotions but what you actually are. 

Then if you were to ask yourself questions about how / what when etc with your daily life.  See how you interact with the world and be truthful in your answers their would be the perceived self. 

The ideal self is where you want to be.  What are your goals for tomorrow, next week and next year.  Are they realistic?  Are these perceptions of where you want to be the answers your giving me in the questions?   Do you have self awareness that you are not that person yet and acknowledge that you still need to do work. 

Any combination of these and you get the 'sense of self'.  Their is no correct answer here.  It is what you think of yourself and how realistic and accurate that is. 

So if my ideal self is someone who wins at everything and is super successful all conquering.   If that is who I want to be and I answer questions saying how good I am at everything and how much smarter I am than everyone else!  Then the reality.  I am onto my 5th job in 12 moths.  I get shuffled out as I don't interact with people properly and they cant work with me.  But it is always their fault because they didn't see the wisdom of my ways. 

That sense of self is a narcasist.  Its a false self. 

The narcissist's view is their reality, perception of myself is totally wrong.  It isn't objectivity and their is no balance. 

Does that sort of... .  flow a bit better, I'm having trouble as I don't have the texts to cheat from infront of me. 





For all of us our sense of self has changed, we have admitted a problem and we are working on our self awareness.  The narcissistic aspect is very true as we are dismantling a lie in many respects where we told ourselves how good life was and we didn't step out and objectively look at the real situation. 

For someone with a PD that self awareness is lacking.  My exBPD, multiple jobs, multiple career paths, multiple short term interests/hobbies.  Their is never any concistancy and it is always someone else's fault.  Unable to step out of her view and see objectively what she is doing.  She believes that for her, her perception of herself is so close to the ideal self and their is no awareness of the real self.  This is the false self, detached from reality.  Just like we were absorbed in the false self in the relationship detached from the reality of what it actually is.  Now I question her view I am questioning her reality.  I am therefore evil as I trigger the narcissistic wound or make her see the truth about herself for a brief period of time.  That objective view is so painful that they run from it instantly.  They don't want self awareness, it hurts to admit that they are not that ideal self. 
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2014, 10:26:47 PM »

ok im going to try explaining it eventually I will probably be able to explain it a lot better.

the BPD person is attracted to the narcissistic image or persona we project into the world.  Like a muse they inspire it within us.  It doesn't matter to them if it authentic or not as long as we are happy to let them be a part of it. they attach to this avatar not who we are deep deep down.

I was probably like many of us in a hard time in my life when I met her and she inspired in me self esteem.  that was the beginning of me projecting value onto her.

she mirrored back that value and we both felt good.

later on we began hanging out and when she would have a episode where she dysregulated and needed for me to comfort her it inspired in me to sooth her and I felt a sort of paternal feeling like I was needed and important and made me feel valuable.  to do this I had to be strong for her and repress my own fear of seeing her like this.  These moments were trauma bonding moments. And what were actually crappy moments felt like good moments because my vulnerable narcissism was activated. Thinking of these moments as good moments is a part of the fantasy that is hard to let go of and they tie into the overall fantasy of thinking of myself as a good person. That is how I experienced it not her.  After wards she would reward me for that through her idealilizing.  This conditioned me to feel like my strength and love were good enough to get her through those little melt downs and repress my own fears.

Then there were a bunch of moments where she was not feeling good because of her inner turmoil but since I had to be strong for her I remember them as moments that were better than they actually were.

I can remember a time in the beginning where I was aware of red flags and if she pulled the stuff she did in the devaluing phase I would have left her in an instant.

once through all the idealizing and trauma bonding moments the fantasy was fully formed and I commited devaluing moments began.  But the fantasy was my own projection and when she showed me this other side I narcissistically thought like all the other times if I just hid my fear and believed that love would prevail like it always had before we would get through this and at first it did conditioning me to continue with this belief.  Then like antony said she would "up the ante."  This triggered me and I would defend the fantasy.  Eventually she would see me in pain and this further conditioned me to hide my fear and pain and become ore cautious and distant.  Repressing all this fear and pain drove it down to my core and opened those wounds making her trigger for me.

anyway after she left the struggle of detaching is hard because the fantasy is me as a valuable person that I falsely have associated with her. I am not even detaching from her at all just the narcissistc idea of myself that makes the memories seem better than they were. It is hard to let go of the idea of myself as a valuable good person because I have the fantasy of that attached to her. the struggle against that pain I felt was me trying to convince myself I am a good person a valuable person. That is the story that became attached to and accociated with pain in the devaluing stage.  As I held onto the idea of me as good enough, not even for her but for myself, I held onto that pain. As I struggled against the pain, shame, fear and those negative emotions and told myself I am a good person I have value I was just holding onto the pain. I had been conditioned to associate love, strength, my self esteem, even my identity with the fantasy I created in the relationship a fantasy that had become a trigger for pain.  So any thinking of myself as a valuable person even in other areas of my life triggers the pain. Even the idea of not showing my ex my pain triggers the pain.  Like letting go always says I had to let go of the story and just feel it and surrender to it accept defeat because like tausk always says the disorder always wins.

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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2014, 11:03:35 PM »

I'm at work and don't have a lot of my stuff on me at present, trying to work through this off my experiences.    

If you were to stand back or observe yourself objectively as a person.  For a day week or year.  Study how you interact with people and conduct yourself in life.  That would be an objective view of the real you.  No emotions but what you actually are.  

Then if you were to ask yourself questions about how / what when etc with your daily life.  See how you interact with the world and be truthful in your answers their would be the perceived self.  

The ideal self is where you want to be.  What are your goals for tomorrow, next week and next year.  Are they realistic?  Are these perceptions of where you want to be the answers your giving me in the questions?   Do you have self awareness that you are not that person yet and acknowledge that you still need to do work.  

Any combination of these and you get the 'sense of self'.  Their is no correct answer here.  It is what you think of yourself and how realistic and accurate that is.  

So if my ideal self is someone who wins at everything and is super successful all conquering.   If that is who I want to be and I answer questions saying how good I am at everything and how much smarter I am than everyone else!  Then the reality.  I am onto my 5th job in 12 moths.  I get shuffled out as I don't interact with people properly and they cant work with me.  But it is always their fault because they didn't see the wisdom of my ways.  

That sense of self is a narcasist.  Its a false self.  

The narcissist's view is their reality, perception of myself is totally wrong.  It isn't objectivity and their is no balance.  

Does that sort of... . flow a bit better, I'm having trouble as I don't have the texts to cheat from infront of me.  





For all of us our sense of self has changed, we have admitted a problem and we are working on our self awareness.  The narcissistic aspect is very true as we are dismantling a lie in many respects where we told ourselves how good life was and we didn't step out and objectively look at the real situation.  

For someone with a PD that self awareness is lacking.  My exBPD, multiple jobs, multiple career paths, multiple short term interests/hobbies.  Their is never any concistancy and it is always someone else's fault.  Unable to step out of her view and see objectively what she is doing.  She believes that for her, her perception of herself is so close to the ideal self and their is no awareness of the real self.  This is the false self, detached from reality.  Just like we were absorbed in the false self in the relationship detached from the reality of what it actually is.  Now I question her view I am questioning her reality.  I am therefore evil as I trigger the narcissistic wound or make her see the truth about herself for a brief period of time.  That objective view is so painful that they run from it instantly.  They don't want self awareness, it hurts to admit that they are not that ideal self.  

that makes sense.

 :)Urring the devaluing my entire reality snapped my mind too I couldn't even recognize myself in the mirror without convincing myself. I tumbled to the bottom of the rabbit hole and slipped between the cracks into the unconscious world of repressed fears and memories.  It became my reality.

She literally drove me insane it was also coupled with my busy schedule and lack of sleep from all the different stressors and finding out about her betrayal.

What I realized is we all have the sense of self that keeps all of those repressed truamas of the parts of ourself we don't want to see hidden in our unconscious.  They are a very real part of us that exists in each moment. we don't experience the totality of who we are despite our succeses in life or our achievments or any of that crap.  our experience is who we think we are and aspects of what is benath the surface.  WHo we think we are is just a part of us. a part to hide from what we got going on underneath.  How people perceive us is not who we are. How we act is a result of infinite variables of which the fear and everything else that is underneath has a lot more control than we realize.

Ive experieced the fear I know what the borderline is hiding from.  They want a distraction from it in finding a persona to attach to.  We need that persona also to distract ourselves from it but we can create our own.  We are all hiding from it no one wants to feel it but its is there in each and everyone of us.  It is why we try to find identity in things outside ourself and why we are so easily manipulated.  We are not our persona even our sense of self is just a layer.

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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2014, 11:15:11 PM »

the pain we are feeling is not just the tauama from our exs it is all the unconscious parts of ourself all our fears and things we don't want to experience in the moment all the things we hide from.  The layer on top of that which is our conscious experience is only a part of the whole we have developed a bunch of coping mechanisms and personas and schemas to hide from that part of ourselves.  We get stuck by trying to build back up that barrier to keep that part of ourself from seeping into our conscious experience. We lie to ourselves so we don't have to experience them and hide from them.

Untill I faced those fears and stopped fighting them I didn't know who I am.
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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2014, 11:23:47 PM »

After reading more on this thread, Blimblam - is it safe to say that your early ability to "meet the bar, raise the bar" pattern she set up gave you a sense of value and eventually not being able to meet the bar (no human could) you find yourself without core value or worth?

Is this the narcissism you refer to?
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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2014, 11:28:30 PM »

Blimblam, that makes sense. I still hover around the idea of I was as good as I can be, with her, and the rest is downhill from here. But the truth is, I was myself before I met her, and still am. Making changes along the way, for the better (that's what I'm aiming for). I agree with you, we look outside ourselves to help make sense of who we really are. When we 'find ourselves', at various times in our lives, it's often just another reflection we're seeing, in yet another mirror, of who we want to be more than who we are. It's deep, you're onto something. Working through the layers, there are always other layers. The best thing you can be is to be yourself, which you are even when you're lost, you know? I think the difference between pwBPD and those without is that 'we' choose a 'good' persona and stick with it, but pwBPD can never settle with just one. The constancy of the switches being flipped wears everybody out. Breaking free from dishonest patterns is key here.
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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2014, 11:40:23 PM »

Wow everyone, thank you.  Between this and a few other threads over the last couple days I have been able to understand a lot more of what I have experienced.  Its putting the knowledge into practice and also seeing how it applies to our past relationship dynamic.  

That understanding of ourselves is very powerful.  I want to ask that with these topics keep posting them and asking the questions.  I don't know if people are able to relate to what I am saying with my experiences however I can see the patterns, understand my own thinking through what others are posting here.  Its like a giant join the dots and I understand two or three things individually however I can link them together through others explaining their understanding.  

At the moment I am re-reading a few books and sort of concentrating on myself as opposed to BPD.  Understanding myself has enlightened me on how I was vulnerable to the BPD relationship dynamic.  

I have made a lot more progress linking knowledge that I already have through these threads so again thank you.  Putting the lessons others have learnt forward, sort of asking if they apply to me has given me more information about myself and my role.  
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« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2014, 11:43:33 PM »

After reading more on this thread, Blimblam - is it safe to say that your early ability to "meet the bar, raise the bar" pattern she set up gave you a sense of value and eventually not being able to meet the bar (no human could) you find yourself without core value or worth?

Is this the narcissism you refer to?

well it is the part of me that repressed the parts of myself I didn't want to experience.  

So all that exists is the moment.  How we experience the moment is subjective and what we are aware of is just a part of our subjective whole.  Our conscious awareness the one our persona and sense of self exists in  is just a layer.  Under that layer is everything we surpress and we do that by lying to ourselves.  The narcissistic injury has ripped a hole into the repressed parts of ourselves and the pain is how that is in conflict with the lies we have come to believe.  

for a while my mind slipped into  that repressed part of myself and their is no sense of self there at least not the one I have experienced my entire life. I found it again yesterday but it is just a part of me.  It is who I thought I was my entire life.  Even in that darkest part where I was in hell I found repressed parts of myself.  

I don't know what is underneath that unconscious layer.
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« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2014, 12:03:24 AM »

After reading more on this thread, Blimblam - is it safe to say that your early ability to "meet the bar, raise the bar" pattern she set up gave you a sense of value and eventually not being able to meet the bar (no human could) you find yourself without core value or worth?

Is this the narcissism you refer to?

well yes.  the thing about the pattern that I saw differently was the repressing parts of the reality, her reality.  It was narcissistic to think we shared the same reality.  I even lied to myself and look back at many of those moments as better than they were which is completely in contrast to her reality.  Her reality is much more like what we experience in the aftermath she is just better at coping with it by finding soothers and a persona to attach to that is not her own to distract her from it.

she her entire life is experiencing the part of ourself we hide from we are better at hiding from it and she wants to hide herself in our persona detached from that part of ourself.  At first she will build us up so we can be better at hiding from that part of ourselves.  She conciosly or uncociously conditions us to hide from that part of ourselves so she doesn't have to experience it either.
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« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2014, 12:07:28 AM »

I am one day in a few years when over this re-read my journals and laugh at myself.  I will be able to enjoy life for what it is thanks to her. 

Not a lie or a false life but the real thing.  This woman should be put in jail for the abuse that she dishes out. 
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« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2014, 12:20:55 AM »

I don't know what is underneath that unconscious layer.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about the unconscious mind -- frankly, I think I overthought it during my initial period of trying to cognitively put pieces together, especially as I thought about my Family of Origin (FOO).

Here's my non-clinical version of what I learned, and how I found a way to consider what might be in my own unconscious mind.

Our brains are magnificent & complex machines.  When we learn to ride a bike, for instance, it becomes second nature (our brains learn, and then just "know" what to do).  It's somewhat the same way with emotional learnings -- early on, even in infancy, we pick up on clues from our parents, or primary caregivers, and we create an emotional map that submerges like a river bed, and we figure out ways to keep us safe from pain, or in harmony with our environment [adaptively or maladaptively].  Throughout our lives our brains encode emotional experiences, and deeply emotional experiences -- especially traumatic ones -- have the ability to really imprint our brains with "implicit" learnings -- the stuff of the unconscious.

Neuroscience, over the last decade, has shown that implicit learnings -- even deep schemas -- can be unlocked and deleted or amended (see, for instance, any "coherence therapy" website for better explanation) with focused, therapeutic experience.  (Formerly, it was believed that such imprints were permanent... .)

We don't reveal the implicit learnings cognitively.  Instead, we look for symptoms that exist solely because of the encoded learnings.   And, from what I understand, there is not a single schema or code that needs to be cracked.  There can be multiple schemas and multiple codes with varying degrees.  

I'll use a personal example:  I met my ex-girlfriend following a difficult marriage & divorce.  I had about 4 months of very intense and amazing interaction with her during the idealization phase.  I endured so much drama following that phase (rather than breaking it off) because I had a deeply imprinted implicit emotional memory of her as "soul mate."  

I know now that it became an "unconscious" learning, because no matter how much my conscious brain said let go, I held on because "letting go" felt like erasure.  

Now, does this mean that there was some deeper unconscious longing for attachment that relates to my FOO?  Who knows.  (I don't know yet, but I'm pursuing the thinking).  What matters right now, however, is that I am aware of the specific "soul mate" encoding.  And, once I became aware of it, I started to challenge it with conscious and emotional attention (Do I still exist without her? Yes!  Can I still feel love without her? Yes!)

I'm not a clinician, but I hope that makes some sense.

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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2014, 12:38:24 AM »

I am one day in a few years when over this re-read my journals and laugh at myself.  I will be able to enjoy life for what it is thanks to her. 

Not a lie or a false life but the real thing.  This woman should be put in jail for the abuse that she dishes out. 

the thing is they typically warn us.  It is our own narcissism that disregards what they are warning us of.  I am not even sure if they condition us consciously.  The dysregulation is a symptom of that profound fear, our own narcissism steps in to play to comfort them and we create a story of what a great person we are.  The Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) are there we just were blinded by our own narcissism.

we are all hiding from the terrifying things we hide in our unconscious.  Pretty much everyone you will ever meet.

we try to hide from it, fight it. convince ourselves its not there. project it onto others to blame for it.  we run from it.  but none of this works.

surrender. defeat. acceptance

even when I thought I was accepting it I was lying to myself.  I thought I was surrendering and I was lying to myself. I accepted defeat I think.



I still feel the feeling in my chest though I still feel the feeling in my gut it is the only thing I know is true.


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« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2014, 12:40:08 AM »

I don't know what is underneath that unconscious layer.

Could it be the realization/fact that you exist, and all that goes with that?
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« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2014, 12:47:39 AM »

we are all hiding from the terrifying things we hide in our unconscious.  Pretty much everyone you will ever meet.

Respectfully, BB -- and I know you are doing hard work, so please take this as an alternative perspective (rather than a challenge):

I think we "cling" to what we have in our unconscious because it is how we "think" the world should work (even if maladaptive).  When we become aware of what we cling to, we can work it.
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« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2014, 12:50:09 AM »

I really am at that point of starting to understand I cant help her.  She is disordered, toxic, damaged.  I have seen a fair bit of NPD I  her as well.  Very very dangerous individual and the mother of our son.  

By reaching out to her and trying to reconcile I grew so much more from that understanding however I have given her so much more ammunition for court.  She will have to bring it out and I will smile, say yes she has mental healthy problems so do I.  Lets get it all out their.  I care for her but I care for our son more.  

I have 5 journals of my thoughts and notes about everything that has occurred.  I have one that is just all different examples of her twisted thinking black/white etc and also idolisation / devaluation.  

She has some false accusations and the claim that I wont give up on her.  Seeing the cycle of abuse that last time did that for me.  Living it again has helped me so much.  The problem is more powerful than the person.  

I am not going to run away from my attempts to help her.  I may be frouned upon however I will say I have been true to myself to try and help someone who doesn't want help.  It has hurt me so much more.  Lets get the psyc evals under way and open up all of the records!  

I have accepted she wants no part in my life and I have also accepted that I don't want her to have any part in my life.  She is not capable of empathy nor recognising she has issues.  Lets bring them out, I wont hide from my problems lets hope she doesnt hide from hers.  
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« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2014, 01:11:30 AM »

I don't know what is underneath that unconscious layer.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about the unconscious mind -- frankly, I think I overthought it during my initial period of trying to cognitively put pieces together, especially as I thought about my Family of Origin (FOO).

Here's my non-clinical version of what I learned, and how I found a way to consider my what might be in my own unconscious mind.

Our brains are magnificent & complex machines.  When we learn to ride a bike, for instance, it becomes second nature (our brains learn, and then just "know" what to do).  It's somewhat the same way with emotional learnings -- early on, even in infancy, we pick up on clues from our parents, or primary caregivers, and we create an emotional map that submerges like a river bed, and we figure out ways to keep us safe from pain, or in harmony with our environment [adaptively or maladaptively].  Throughout our lives our brains encode emotional experiences, and deeply emotional experiences -- especially traumatic ones -- have the ability to really imprint our brains with "implicit" learnings -- the stuff of the unconscious.

Neuroscience, over the last decade, has shown that implicit learnings -- even deep schemas -- can be unlocked and deleted or amended (see, for instance, any "coherence therapy" website for better explanation) with focused, therapeutic experience.  (Formerly, it was believed that such imprints were permanent... .)

We don't reveal the implicit learnings cognitively.  Instead, we look for symptoms that exist solely because of the encoded learnings.   And, from what I understand, there is not a single schema or code that needs to be cracked.  There can be multiple schemas and multiple codes with varying degrees.  

I'll use a personal example:  I met my ex-girlfriend following a difficult marriage & divorce.  I had about 4 months of very intense and amazing interaction with her during the idealization phase.  I endured so much drama following that phase (rather than breaking it off) because I had a deeply imprinted implicit emotional memory of her as "soul mate."  

I know now that it became an "unconscious" learning, because no matter how much my conscious brain said let go, I held on because "letting go" felt like erasure.  

Now, does this mean that there was some deeper unconscious longing for attachment that relates to my FOO?  Who knows.  (I don't know yet, but I'm pursuing the thinking).  What matters right now, however, is that I am aware of the specific "soul mate" encoding.  And, once I became aware of it, I started to challenge it with conscious and emotional attention (Do I still exist without her? Yes!  Can I still feel love without her? Yes!)

I'm not a clinician, but I hope that makes some sense.

it makes sense.

I am pretty sure I crossed over that line into the unconscious when my mind snapped and it overlayed reality.  then the ptsd was like having all those fears resurfacing into my conscious awareness.  the thing is it is not logical and it is emotion based emotions become the experience of reality and it is terrible because they are the ones we never wanted to experience.

for me I think I may just cracked that soul mate code yesterday.  

I had to think about a time I saw things differently and when I saw everything as perfect.  There was a grey area for me where I though she was my soulmate but I had my doubts and watched her actions.  For me everything changed during a specific extremely traumatic bond where I basically vowed every last bit of my soul and life to her.

I asked myself how did I relate to the trauma bond?

How did she perceive that same experience?

How does that relate to the pain I am experiencing now?

how did she make me feel that inspired me to see soulmate?



there are some other questions I forgot... .The answer I got was a somatic one and a bunch of flashbacks.  I had to relive everything somatically and then a whole new way of seeing things in my mind appeared. I also had to think back of her and of me.

I got a foo answer already.

I really had focused on the trauma bond and my role in it. think vulnerable narcissism.


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