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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Infern0
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« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2014, 11:51:37 PM »

Haha i love how lettinggo writes this beautiful spiritual message and inferno just writes bluntly delete block never look back. That made me laugh. I needed that. Both very good advice. This girl haunts me. I wish I could just fully escape her. Or just be with her happily. But the latter seems impossible I guess

It's the same with me,  I wish I could be with mine and be happy but it's just not possible. I'll always have love for her but I just accept that she cannot change and I can't be with her. NC has strengthened my resolve.  I occasionally check my spam folder and see the stuff she sends and it hurts for an instant but then I analyze it line by line. Projection, emotional blackmail etc etc. I can see through all of it at this stage. I even see her parroting exact phrases I said to her. It's predictable.

Once you get to that stage you will be ok. But you need to stick to your guns. 
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goldylamont
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« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2014, 03:27:05 AM »

... .She has serious issues and proves this every time she recycles.

you mentioned that you had an 8 month r/s with her. how long has it been since then? and when you mention recycles, do you mean that you both have gotten back together, both claiming to be in a r/s with each other? or is this just her reaching out to you despite you telling her you don't want to hear from her?

you asked the question earlier about why she keeps reaching out to you, even though she has/had a bf and even though you asked her to leave you alone. and you are quick to point out her issues as a cause of this. got it. however there is another reason she keeps reaching out to you which you need to be aware of--she does it because she's still in control of you. she knows she'll get a response. because you don't keep your boundaries, so she calls you on your bluff and then you're back to square one. i'm not sure how many times you have drawn a line in the sand, only to allow her to dance across it again, and this is the root of the issue. it is true that she has issues. she probably always will. but as LettingGo stated you have to start taking the responsibility for these reconnects by acknowledging your own issues.

be kind to yourself, believe in yourself and forgive yourself. but at some point she's going to call you out of the blue from an unknown phone number and it's going to be up to you to ensure the contact stops then and there. imagine yourself at this moment where you are strong enough to not react and work diligently to become this person.

you have to let go of this fantasy. i often think you need to actively destroy the fantasy (this was more suitable for my personality type). if you don't do this for yourself, then by default she will do it for you--because one day she'll reach a threshold where you become less important to her and she may never contact you again. and this will be a blessing but it feels better when you were able to take the reigns and initiate.
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zenwexler
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« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2014, 06:26:46 AM »

Every time I go nc she goes to greater and greater lengths to get me on the phone. This most recent i was literally tricked. In the past it was car accidents surgery and self harm. We only broke up and got back together officially once. Th rest were just me going nc and her doing everything she can to reach out to me. Her actions always scream to me that she can't let me go and has more then just friend feelings for me. It's been 14 months since we've last broken up. I haven't even seen her in person for 12 months
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LettingGo14
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« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2014, 08:01:16 AM »

It's been 14 months since we've last broken up. I haven't even seen her in person for 12 months

It's time, zen:  Make everything about you now, and your recovery, and you will free yourself.  Goldy said it very well -- she's a fantasy, a fiction. She's real but not true, for you.  Take a deep breath, and let her go completely -- breathe in, heal yourself... .breathe out, let her go.  

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zenwexler
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« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2014, 01:17:31 PM »

Everyone says it gets easier with NC. And I went true NC for four months. It never got easier. I thought about her all the time. And clearly she did as well
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SpringInMyStep
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« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2014, 01:20:41 PM »

zen,

if you went NC for 4 months and that didn't help, it may be that you are still believing the fantasy of who she appears to be vs. who she really is. You're believing the fantasy because you so badly want it to be true.

for this, I might suggest reading more about BPD and how they work. It's not love. It's need. It's dependence but then they reject you if you need them too much. And the cycle continues.

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zenwexler
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« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2014, 02:31:27 PM »

You're absolutely right. I was hoping she would reach out to me. To not move on and still prove to me that she has feelings for me. Which I think her action have shown. She hasn't moved on. She hasn't changed. She clearly is very disordered. You can make the argument that as she gets older and sees more of the world it in fact is getting worse rather then better. Because if she was better. She wouldn't have gone to such great lengths to get me on the phone even though she's "dating" someone
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SpringInMyStep
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« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2014, 02:36:59 PM »

Yes! You know, I ask myself why my wife would want to hang out with me after saying I "hurt her the most out of everyone". Then I remembered how BPDs work and I'm one of those people she feels can do things for her... .so she will overlook things about people even if she doesn't like them because of what she can get from that person. She did it with me, she's doing it with the couple she's now dating. She really has nothing in common with them but seems to overlook a lot of stuff because they have all really attached themselves to each other very quickly (one of them is BPD).

Her attachment to you comes and goes based on her need. Today she might be feeling lonely so she'll text you to check your reaction. Then tomorrow, the person she's dating is available, so she'll push you away again. Do you really want to be part of a relationship like this?

It's just so dysfunctional. I said in another thread that my therapist told me to only date people who are at least as mentally healthy as I am. I think that's good advice.

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heartandwhole
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« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2014, 03:27:21 PM »

Hi zen,

I'm really sorry that you are going through this right now.  I've been there, and it hurt so much.  Letting go can be so difficult, it certainly was for me.

Everyone says it gets easier with NC. And I went true NC for four months. It never got easier. I thought about her all the time. And clearly she did as well

This is a very, very important point.  NC is not the healing, not the cure, not the silver bullet.  :)etachment is.  NC will not protect you from your ex, or yourself, if it's the only thing you do.  Rather, NC is the gift of time, of space – a respite from the blind following of impulses.  We have to use that gift for recovery, which is work. It's where the feelings – the ones we are trying to avoid by maintaining the relationship in the first place – come rushing to the surface like a tidal wave. Not pretty, but necessary.

Detachment and recovery can be one of the hardest things you'll ever go through, but you can survive it, and then thrive again.  Really.  Going NC is giving yourself a chance – to face what you need to face and come through it a better man – without the distraction of addictive pushes and pulls. NC is not for everyone, but if it's your choice, use it to help you let go. Then you'll realize that your ex has a disorder and is not capable of being the partner that you need, and that what you need and want for yourself is important.  As important as anything else in the world.

Zen, you have not failed and you are not alone.  We're here with our virtual arms around you.  

heartandwhole 
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When the pain of love increases your joy, roses and lilies fill the garden of your soul.
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« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2014, 03:48:58 PM »

What answer did I find? I have no idea. I feel more confused

That she's got BPD and you need to stay well clear.

Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post)

(Sorry, nervous laugh)
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Harri
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« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2014, 04:07:54 PM »

Hi Zen.  I am so sorry you are hurting right now.  I get it, I really do.  There is so much truth and wisdom in this thread and I hope you are able to see the understanding, acceptance and support everyone has for you.  What a wonderful gift this place is right?  

You ask how to get your power back and I have to agree with what LettingGo said here:

Excerpt
You have the power to re-frame this.   You truly do.

One way to start the process of seeing the power you already have within you is to change or reframe how you describe this process.  So take this sentence as an example:

Excerpt
And every time I get sucked in.

These words state that you have no control over your own actions.  We both know that is not true but with these words that you type or say to yourself over and over tell you that you are incapable of resisting, as if you have no choice in the matter.  Change your words to something more accurate which would look like:  So far, I have chosen to allow myself to be sucked in.  Well no more! or something along those lines (my lines sounds kind of lame to me!    )

These words may hurt.  They may even be hard to accept or admit to, but they can be and truly are empowering.  As long as you believe you were sucked in or she somehow manipulated you (which she did, but that is not the point here!   ) you will buy into the whole "I am powerless against this" mentality.  And your actions will follow your beliefs.  Listen to your words and your self talk and they will lead you to where you are, in essence, giving away your power.

Keep posting.  We can all relate.

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  "What is to give light must endure burning." ~Viktor Frankl
zenwexler
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« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2014, 04:44:14 PM »

I want to let go. And to detach. And to be part of a healthy loving relationship. I really really do.  And for some reason I can't seem to let go of her because I KNOW she hasn't let me go either. Because if she had I wouldn't be hearing from her. So I feel like that's my biggest sticking point.
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goldylamont
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« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2014, 05:04:52 PM »

I want to let go. And to detach. And to be part of a healthy loving relationship. I really really do.  And for some reason I can't seem to let go of her because I KNOW she hasn't let me go either. Because if she had I wouldn't be hearing from her. So I feel like that's my biggest sticking point.

this is your biggest sticking point. every time you almost get there, you almost get to the point of acknowledging your own codependency, but then you deflect responsibility from yourself and onto her.

when you were together and intimate, the issue was her disorder and your codependency. right now in the present as you are not together the only issue to be addressed is your codependency (inability to detach/ignore after several months).

after these relationships it's and understatement to say that our egos have been bruised big time, if not completely assaulted. i think you are looking at her reaching out to you in the wrong light. you are reading far too much into it and projecting your fantasy of getting back together on her actions. while it's true that she's not completely detached from you, it's also very clear that she doesn't want to be back with you in any way intimately. this is your desire. not hers. she's been very clear in this regard. she's been seeing other guys. perhaps several. she's started other relationships (perhaps several). she tells you about these other relationships and has told you directly that she doesn't want one with you. she continues to contact you disregarding your boundaries because she knows she can easily get past your boundaries. and she's able to get past your boundaries because your ego is hurt, and you falsely assume that her contacting you means that ultimately she wants the same thing that you do--to get back together.

if she wanted to get back together with you this would have happened already. she's getting exactly what she wants from this exchange, which is to stay connected with you on some level with no ties while she's free to be intimate with others. that's why she keeps reaching out because her needs are met, and she could care less what your needs are. your needs have never been met--you want to be in a relationship with her and you don't want to hear about her trists with other men. but this continues to happen. the first couple of times were stumbling blocks, but at this point you've been in this limbo/purgatory stage it sounds like much longer than you were actually in the relationship itself. so, your intimate relationship where at least you got some semblance of your needs met lasted about 8 months, yet the majority of your total r/s to her has been as the ex-bf "friend" where your needs aren't met, while hers are fully.

i want to support your recovery so i mean no disrespect. but i think you have to accept that you are incorrect in thinking that your ex wants you back in the same way you want her back. once you radically accept this i think you will be ready for the next stage of detachment.
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myself
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« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2014, 05:08:33 PM »

I can't seem to let go of her because I KNOW she hasn't let me go either. Because if she had I wouldn't be hearing from her. So I feel like that's my biggest sticking point.

Here's what she said when you did hear from her:

"Her- ya but also we weren't a great fit don't you think? I felt like we just weren't a good fit. I mean I think we were bored and wanted to feel something so we chose each other to do it and there ya go"

This doesn't sound like she's hanging onto you as in she wants to be back in a relationship with you. So why then is she still in contact? For healthy reasons, or disordered? If you yourself hang onto her, just because she hasn't let go/still contacts you, this could go on for the rest of your life. IF she keeps contacting you. So you need to decide what's best for you, and follow through. Letting go hurts, in many deep ways, but is it less or more than if you hang onto the painful illusion of she's going to live happily after with you?
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enlighten me
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« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2014, 05:09:00 PM »

Hi Zen

Lots of people hold on to others and the reasons aren't always healthy. A bully will hold onto their victim as they enjoy the control and power they exert over them.

Is the fact that she hasn't let go healthy? Is it selfish? Do you truly believe that she wants anything to do with you that resembles a mutual and respectful relationship. Answer those questions truthfully and with your head not your heart.

That is the hardest part when wanting to let someone go. Listening to your head and not your emotions. Emotions are great but they can make us do things that aren't necessarily the right choice.

Only you can decide what you want but sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the situation objectively.
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zenwexler
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« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2014, 05:46:07 PM »

She's a terrible person. And is extremely cruel and abusive. And I submit myself to. When we were in a relationship and post relationship. And I'm sorry, but her calling me from her roommates phone at 1 in the morning because I had her blocked  is putting in A LOT of effort to get hold of me. Who puts that much effort in for an ex? For just a "friend" It doesn't add up to me!
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goldylamont
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« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2014, 06:52:32 PM »

She's a terrible person. And is extremely cruel and abusive. And I submit myself to. When we were in a relationship and post relationship. And I'm sorry, but her calling me from her roommates phone at 1 in the morning because I had her blocked  is putting in A LOT of effort to get hold of me. Who puts that much effort in for an ex? For just a "friend" It doesn't add up to me!

if your ex has strong BPD traits, then calling you from her roommate's phone at 1AM, despite being blocked; then when she actually does talk to you she tells you that she was bored in the r/s and she doesn't want to start again--all of this is actually normal for a pwBPD. my ex moved in a couple houses away from me over a year after we separated after 6 months NC. then she started contacting me and went so far as to park her car directly next to mine over the course of a few weeks, as if nothing bad had ever happened. This is just what some of them will do. But I knew this had *nothing* to do with her 'love' for me at all. I later confirmed what my gut instinct said--she had just broken up with yet another bf, got kicked out and tried to latch onto me until she could find some other man to idealize. So, i ignored everything and stopped replying to all correspondence. It was terribly hard for me, don't think it was a piece of cake, it wasn't. But I had to accept at this point that even though this person may still be trying to reach out, she could never love me fully, she was/is disordered. And accepting this gave me the strength to not reciprocate her contact.

Who puts in that much effort for an ex, just to be "friends"? A pwBPD often does.

right now you are still defining your future on your ex still being in love with you and one day leaving her current bf to recycle with you. holding onto this false belief has allowed a long term, one sided 'friendship' to occur with no signs that she wants to reciprocate the relationship that you want. that you deserve--with someone else. her actions show that she is disordered and still attached to you in some way; nothing more. it does not show that she loves you, or right now you would feel loved. i know it's a hard thing to accept, but this is key to you moving forward.
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zenwexler
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« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2014, 07:57:14 PM »

So these people they never can truly love someone and reciprocate? It's always just an attachment thing?
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myself
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« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2014, 08:17:41 PM »

They can love, and reciprocate. They can't be consistent. It becomes painful.

If you don't have BPD (and if you do), you want/need/deserve more than this.

It's an 'attachment thing' to whoever attaches badly, and/or does not let go.

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zenwexler
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« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2014, 08:30:29 PM »

So they do it for the time being then  stop and move on to the next one? Which is why a few months ago she was telling me she was falling in love and now shes telling me she's moving and not factoring in her current bf into the situation. Like a toddler with a toy
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myself
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« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2014, 08:57:34 PM »

So they do it for the time being then  stop and move on to the next one?

Yes. Sometimes it's another person, other times (or at the same time) drugs or something else. Sometimes they kiss the mirror, other times they smash it. Sometimes closer, sometimes farther. Sometimes now, another time, or never... .What can we count on? Ourselves. If we choose, and follow through.
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goldylamont
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« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2014, 09:13:27 PM »

So they do it for the time being then  stop and move on to the next one? Which is why a few months ago she was telling me she was falling in love and now shes telling me she's moving and not factoring in her current bf into the situation. Like a toddler with a toy

yes zenwexler. yes. they can love, but the love is more than often based on need. i'm sure her current bf is now in the same situation you were in months ago--confused, wondering if he mattered to her at all... .it's really tough to go through for anyone. i had to detach from the idea that i needed to be important to my ex. i know in my heart that i touched her fully in many ways. and at the same time i accept that for her, she has a terribly strong need, and that almost any guy can fulfill it if he's willing. i was that guy for a while. that's ok. i no longer am. i've survived. you will too. your ex doesn't love you in the same way we would understand it--but this does not reflect on your own self worth or importance. it's so important now to focus on improving yourself so that the next time she calls, instead of leaning into the idea that she wants to re-unite, you are able to hold your boundaries and accept the pain that holding them entails. you are strong enough to do this. i have faith in you. i know it hurts. i know you can get through it as well.
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zenwexler
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« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2014, 09:46:48 PM »

I know you are all right. It's like my therapist tried to drill into my head. That she is incapable of having a happy and healthy relationship and I need to recognize how sick i am for wanting one.

I forgot to mention that at the end of the conversation she said this to me

Her" I have this weird habit now. I kind of started catcalling other men. Like ohhh man. You're a hottie. Or like damn. Look at that one. He's so sexy!"

I think that may have been one of the most bizarre things I have ever heard from her. And this is the same girl that makes her mother promise to her that she won't die at least three times a day.
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goldylamont
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« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2014, 11:13:13 PM »

I forgot to mention that at the end of the conversation she said this to me

Her" I have this weird habit now. I kind of started catcalling other men. Like ohhh man. You're a hottie. Or like damn. Look at that one. He's so sexy!"

this is blatant devaluation. it's emotional poison and it's important to recognize it as such. in essence she's being passive aggressive and attacking your self-esteem. anyone this attuned into their own jealous tendencies knows that it's inappropriate to discuss other men and sexuality with exes. this is why these relationships are often described as toxic. to someone hurting like you these words telegraph that you're not hot, you're not sexy, that she's so over you. all said with a triumphant smile--i've been there and heard all that. and she's probably doing the same thing to her current bf, who knows. this is why it's so important to remove yourself from her influence. you will never be able to tell if what she is saying is genuine or intended to punish. start to see her for who she really is. a scaredy-cat who wants to punish others in order to feel superior. it will help you not want to go back.
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« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2014, 06:59:41 AM »

Zen,

I too failed recently.  I accepted a call from a number that I didn't recognize. (boundary busting)  I knew better.  But yet I answered the call.  At first the conversation was going good and then out of the blue she started blaming me for everything I did.  I took the blame once again.  I had been nc for 3 weeks and my head had started clearing.  Even after all the blame, I thought for some unknown reason, hey I'm going to try this again.  I can make this work.  (codependency).  She wanted to go to therapy which was a joke.  Once there, she became the victim and I was the big bad wolf.  And the therapist believed her.  He gave me a long list of things to do while telling her just to take her time and grieve her losses?  When we left, she was all hugs and smiles and I was very confused.  I questioned her about what just happened, and she said "that's how I felt then.  But now I'm ok.  And besides I told you I really didn't want to go to counseling."   I just shook my head and knew that I had made a mistake in going back.  Not long after that she raged at me and I raged back.  At that moment, I realized that this relationship wasn't going to change and she wasn't good for me.  And this wasn't the type of relationship I wanted to live.  I went back for me.  I stuck my hand in the fire one more time.  My going back didn't change a thing.  It was just more time wasted.  I realized that this relationship could never be fixed no matter how bad I wanted it too.  And this was a glimpse into to the future as to what it would always be like.  Do I love her? Yes.  But my love will not save her.  The only one that I can save is me.  And I deserve better.  And so does everyone who posts on this site.  We are beautiful people with huge hearts that are full of love.  And given to the right person we can have a relationship that gives back without being pushed away.
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« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2014, 12:53:47 PM »

 "start to see her for who she really is. a scaredy-cat who wants to punish others in order to feel superior"

That's exactly right. And it is emotional poison. That's all she does is drop poison. Months ago she talked about her bf like a god, she was falling in love. Now it's like she's back to being the god and no one can reach her.

She really is just so freaking abusive. How can a 20 year old girl be so absolutely cruel and hide behind this innocent cute face? She has everyone fooled!
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« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2014, 01:24:56 PM »

"start to see her for who she really is. a scaredy-cat who wants to punish others in order to feel superior"

That's exactly right. And it is emotional poison. That's all she does is drop poison. Months ago she talked about her bf like a god, she was falling in love. Now it's like she's back to being the god and no one can reach her.

She really is just so freaking abusive. How can a 20 year old girl be so absolutely cruel and hide behind this innocent cute face? She has everyone fooled!

Mine was the exact same way... .she just acted cute and super friendly and lied to and manipulated EVERYONE to get what she wanted at the moment. Utterly devoid of any decency or any awareness of other peoples' feelings. Very sick person.
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« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2014, 10:45:14 AM »

i know in my heart that i touched her fully in many ways. and at the same time i accept that for her, she has a terribly strong need, and that almost any guy can fulfill it if he's willing. i was that guy for a while. that's ok. i no longer am. i've survived. you will too. your ex doesn't love you in the same way we would understand it--but this does not reflect on your own self worth or importance

This is a profound truth and one that's difficult to accept.  Yes, you mattered, you were significant.  No, that is not because of anything unique in you; it is simply because you were skilled in meeting her needs for a time, which many others could have been.  I have often observed how different I am from the other men in my exs life.  She does not have a type, or rather: her type is whoever can meet her needs.

And, toughest of all to reconcile: none of this reflects on your self-worth.   Indeed, few things in our lives reflect less on our self worth.  Because these relationships were not with people who truly evaluated and appreciated our selves.  To them we had value, then we didn't.  They never knew our true value.  Now we have to find someone who does.  And to do that, we have to believe in that value ourselves. 
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BacknthSaddle
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 474


« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2014, 10:49:57 AM »

this is blatant devaluation. it's emotional poison and it's important to recognize it as such. in essence she's being passive aggressive and attacking your self-esteem. anyone this attuned into their own jealous tendencies knows that it's inappropriate to discuss other men and sexuality with exes. this is why these relationships are often described as toxic. to someone hurting like you these words telegraph that you're not hot, you're not sexy, that she's so over you. all said with a triumphant smile--i've been there and heard all that.

Another very important point.  Shortly after our r/s ended, my ex began doing this to me as well.  When I would object, she would make it seem like I was "obsessed" with her and was being childish, and I believed her.  Once I found this site and found how common this was, I was able to re-engage with reality and set boundaries more appropriately.  This IS devaluation and is emotionally abusive, particularly if you have made it clear that you don't want to hear it.  This is a friend?  No.  This is not the kind of person that ANY of us want to be involved with.  No matter how cute her face is. 
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BacknthSaddle
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 474


« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2014, 04:20:25 PM »

As an example, my ex once texted me at 11 PM when I was out with friends to tell me how much she missed her ex-husband. I got upset and we got in a text war (not something I do with anyone else). The next day she complained that "I can't express feelings for any other guy without it affecting your self-esteem." Well... .of course not! But this was played off as a sign if immaturity in my part, and I bought into it. It's so sad that we all get so confused about what is and isn't acceptable.
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