Did they really love us?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Did they really love us... .or did they just REALLY... .REALLY... .REALLY... .not want us to LEAVE THEM?

[Harlygirl]

Did they really love us... .or did they just REALLY... .REALLY... .REALLY... .not want us to LEAVE THEM?

[peiper]

Years ago when I smoked I loved a new pack of fresh cigs. When I'd smoked them all the love for that pack was gone and I threw it away because I'd used what I wanted. That's the way I equate a pwBPD.

[terranova79]

I think BPDs are capable of loving someone but, at least in my experience with my uBPDw, they are so emotionally stunted and confused that those feelings of love can, during times of stress, disappear and be replaced by feeling of contempt and scorn.  Sure, this can happen with normal people too, but BPDs have much thinner skin and can be triggered by things that would never be much of a problem for a non.  And BPDs hold onto grudges for much longer.

So the short of it is that (based on my experiences), they might love you for a while, but it is likely to fail and never come back.

[neverloveagain]

They love the thought of being in love and a perfect one at that. And we all know how that story ends.

[Deeno02]

I really have no clue anymore if she did or not. It is what it is... .:'(

[camuse]

I too have no idea. Gave up trying to work it out.

Does it matter anyway? It's just another label, a word - meaningless without the actions to back it up.

I don't care for future partners telling me they love me now. They can show me with kindness, empathy, understanding etc, but the word has lost meaning for me.

[clydegriffith]

I think at the point in time when they say it, and look at you with the crazy eyes and are leaving you notes everywhere, i think they really do. Of course it's ridiculous to be "in love" with someone after a week or two but in their minds it's real when it's happening. The problem is that when devaluation begins they will believe they never loved you to begin with.

[Deeno02]

I too have no idea. Gave up trying to work it out.

Does it matter anyway? It's just another label, a word - meaningless without the actions to back it up.

I don't care for future partners telling me they love me now. They can show me with kindness, empathy, understanding etc, but the word has lost meaning for me.

Im getting better, but I will tell you one thing, I dont trust any woman thats not in my immediate family. Oh, there have been a few expressing interest since Im back on the market, Ive steered clear. I can't.

[MrConfusedWithItAll]

It's a strange sort of love.  Sort of like now you see me, and now you don't.

[maxsterling]

I suppose I qualify for this board, too, because I had a previous BPD partner in addition to my current BPD partner.  

With my previous partner - I did a lot of soul searching and concluded that she did have emotions for me, but not "love".  I really don't think she was capable of love as most of us understand it, not even for her own family or child.  It was almost like other people weren't even in the same universe as her.  She had a need for other people, and would care about them in their own way - but the "respect" component of love was not there.  I think for true love requires a level of respect and acceptance for people for who they are.  with her own son, it was like she didn't see him so much as an individual, but instead a part of her - like another limb.  I think she was in love with the idea of having a son, and having a boyfriend, but I think that is where it stopped.  

About my current partner - boy there are some days where I question whether she loves me.  She will be cold, cruel, and mean.  I think, "if she really loves me, why can't she stop that mean behavior towards me?"  But - I do feel and trust that she does love me beyond the level of need.  I've come to a point of acceptance and understanding that her mean behavior is coming from a different place.  that does not justify the bad behavior, but I also don't use the bad behavior as proof she doesn't also truly love me.  

[Xidion]

I still have a letter from my ex that she wrote me long ago. It says how I am everything she has always wanted. It also states that she wants a perfect relationship like a fairytale and how she wants to be a princess. She states that she knows it isn't reality, but that's what she wants. No one will ever live up to this expectation. They "loved" us in the idealization stage when all they saw were our good qualities (remember that they see all good and all bad, nothing in between). But once the honeymoon stage is over and the endorphins in their brain calm down, they start to see our flaws (which every human being has). That's when they start to detach. They are a never ending cycle of the honeymoon phase... that's all they want. They are constantly searching for a relationship that will stay that way forever.

[Perdita]

They "loved" us in the idealization stage when all they saw were our good qualities (remember that they see all good and all bad, nothing in between). But once the honeymoon stage is over and the endorphins in their brain calm down, they start to see our flaws (which every human being has).

Very true.  3 months into our r/s he told me "I wish we could go back to when we didn't know that much about each other."  He was quite emotional when he said it. 

They always want what they can't have.  And no, I don't believe he ever really loved me.

[Indyan]

I really have no clue anymore if she did or not. It is what it is... .:'(

Same here  :'(

I just can't make sense of all this 

[Indyan]

I don't care for future partners telling me they love me now. They can show me with kindness, empathy, understanding etc, but the word has lost meaning for me.

Reading this made me cry.

I realized that's exactly how I feel today... .words are just soap bubbles.

[fred6]

Pfft, I guess it's like she told me when she was breaking up with me. "I love you, but I'm not in love with you". What the heck does that mean? You either love someone or you don't. If you ever hear that phrase from a woman, she's nutty as a fruitcake and/or probably cheating on you.

[fred6]

words are just soap bubbles.

My ex once told me that her and her son's father used to say "I love you" to each other. But it didn't mean anything, they were just words. Then she told me, "It's not like that with you".

Ummm, I beg to differ ma'am. I bet she's telling new supply "I love you" as we speak. Hahaha, ain't life grand?

[bunnyrabit]

Sure, just like a 3 year old can have a deep a meaningful love for someone... .They just say whatever they think will get them what they want at that moment. To me their behavior all makes sense when I think about how a toddler would go about handling a specific situation. They're just not able to really grasp the concept of empathy nor the fact that their behavior is hurtful to others. Just look at the devious things a toddler does to the love of his life, his mother... .We're just not bothered by it when it's an infant because we think: ah well, he just doesn't know any better yet... .but it's exactly the same dynamic going on with your BPD ex. BPD is a serious mental illness people, stop trying to compare their minds to a relatively normal functioning adult mind. Give it all a place, have compassion but have compassion for yourself too and move on. You wouldn't be be with a intellectually retarded person, so why be with an emotional retarded one?

[Indyan]

My ex once told me that her and her son's father used to say "I love you" to each other. But it didn't mean anything, they were just words. Then she told me, "It's not like that with you".

Ummm, I beg to differ ma'am. I bet she's telling new supply "I love you" as we speak. Hahaha, ain't life grand?

Oh yes. That reminds me of the whole fuss around saying "I love you" in the beginning of the r/s.

He was obsessed by the idea that I could say it just to hear "I love you too" in return.

It took quite a while for him to be able to say it, or to answer "I love you too" without wondering about stupid mind games.

So much that he kept on saying it even though he was rejecting me, treating me like ennemy no1 and telling horrible things about me to his family... .

[Trog]

I'd have to say no, I think when we were providing a stable life and doing what they wanted 24/7 and making the apologies even when they were to blame, accepting all the guilt and admitting every thing that happens is our fault, they act like they do, they may even think they do, but people that love other people do not behave as they do. It's not love, sorry.

[Trog]

.

[Indyan]

It's not love, sorry.

No, it's not.

But it's more complicated that this.

Their brain tells us that we are evil, their memory is affected.

But mainly, they believe that they're feeling miserable BECAUSE of us, and need to make us feel miserable in return.

Where I agree is that some people can be mentally ill and be kind people.

There should be NO excuse to nastiness.

[Trog]

It's not love, sorry.

No, it's not.

But it's more complicated that this.

Their brain tells us that we are evil, their memory is affected.

But mainly, they believe that they're feeling miserable BECAUSE of us, and need to make us feel miserable in return.

Where I agree is that some people can be mentally ill and be kind people.

There should be NO excuse to nastiness.

Quite, but I'm sick of making excuses for someone who mentally and physically abuses me well or not, who threatens my family and makes allegations. I'm past caring what is wrong with her or wondering why she does things, they're just not acceptable full stop. She believes because we got married that means I made a promise and am simply not allowed to leave, I have to stay in a marriage where I am told I am a Bleep every day, where my feelings are not taken into account for one second, where she spends like a moron and wastes any gain I can ever possbly make. Im sick of this particular BPD, she has no respect for me but manages perfectly well to be charming to everyone around. Its a choice to be an a&&hole IMO.

[Deeno02]

Away from the r/s now for almost 4 months, I feel she never did love me, I was just used by her to get her esteem back after being dumped by her husband and get back on her feet. Once that happened, I was done. And I hate her for that.

[Indyan]

Quite, but I'm sick of making excuses for someone who mentally and physically abuses me well or not, who threatens my family and makes allegations. I'm past caring what is wrong with her or wondering why she does things, they're just not acceptable full stop.

Do you have kids together?

Same here, and as my D10 (not his daughter) puts it: "There's a limit and he's gone far beyond this limit".

[Trog]

Quite, but I'm sick of making excuses for someone who mentally and physically abuses me well or not, who threatens my family and makes allegations. I'm past caring what is wrong with her or wondering why she does things, they're just not acceptable full stop.

Do you have kids together?

Same here, and as my D10 (not his daughter) puts it: "There's a limit and he's gone far beyond this limit".

No kids thank god.

[downwhim]

I would like to think that he truly loved me for those 8 years. I think he did as best he could but at times I view it as addiction. He would tell me everyday he loved me. But, words are cheap aren't they... .

[Deeno02]

I would like to think that he truly loved me for those 8 years. I think he did as best he could but at times I view it as addiction. He would tell me everyday he loved me. But, words are cheap aren't they... .

Yes they are...

[HappyNihilist]

Excluding complete sociopaths, I think everyone's capable of feeling love. That doesn't mean that it's a healthy, mature, and/or lasting love. But they are humans, and they love in their way.

pwBPD are emotionally stunted; it follows that their concept of love is typically not the same as a healthy adult's. I'm fond of the 3-year-old child analogy, myself. It helps put a lot of their behavior into perspective. No, a 3-year-old is not capable of understanding or experiencing a healthy adult relationship, but they can certainly experience love. They love their parents -- except when they're being punished or denied by them. (Sound familiar?) They love people they literally just met ("You like Barbie? You're my best friend!". These feelings are very real to them. But it's not the same kind of love that emotionally mature adults feel.

[Blimblam]

My ex loved me. But she associates love with fear so this triggered her fears of abandonment and engulfment which because of her deeply ingrained trust issues caused her to test me in ways that pushed me away like a self fulfilling prophesy.  Her love was based in her needs to satisfy her impulsive desires and as a parental figure to her abandoned child. Does a parent love their child? Does a child love their parent? 

[DangIthurts]

Excluding complete sociopaths, I think everyone's capable of feeling love. That doesn't mean that it's a healthy, mature, and/or lasting love. But they are humans, and they love in their way.

pwBPD are emotionally stunted; it follows that their concept of love is typically not the same as a healthy adult's. I'm fond of the 3-year-old child analogy, myself. It helps put a lot of their behavior into perspective. No, a 3-year-old is not capable of understanding or experiencing a healthy adult relationship, but they can certainly experience love. They love their parents -- except when they're being punished or denied by them. (Sound familiar?) They love people they literally just met ("You like Barbie? You're my best friend!". These feelings are very real to them. But it's not the same kind of love that emotionally mature adults feel.

Spot on. And thats the problem for most of us here, we are trying to logically view it as to what we know of love and tried to do for them as a definition or standard of  "love", which isn't the case or something they are capable of. Doesn't mean they love us or don't its just what it is .

[Turkish]

Excluding complete sociopaths, I think everyone's capable of feeling love. That doesn't mean that it's a healthy, mature, and/or lasting love. But they are humans, and they love in their way.

pwBPD are emotionally stunted; it follows that their concept of love is typically not the same as a healthy adult's. I'm fond of the 3-year-old child analogy, myself. It helps put a lot of their behavior into perspective. No, a 3-year-old is not capable of understanding or experiencing a healthy adult relationship, but they can certainly experience love. They love their parents -- except when they're being punished or denied by them. (Sound familiar?) They love people they literally just met ("You like Barbie? You're my best friend!". These feelings are very real to them. But it's not the same kind of love that emotionally mature adults feel.

When S4 was S3 last year, he was mad at us. His mom--- we were co-habitating still, but not together---- said, "I love you, S3." S3 responded, "I don't love you!" His mom looked at me and said, "why is he saying that?" I replied, "to him, this feeling is real. He's 3. That's his level of love: when we're meeting his needs. When not, we're painted black. Don't worry, he'll be fine in an hour or so, back to loving us." And he was.

I left out any snarky comments like saying "go look in the mirror and maybe you'll get what he's doing," or something similar.  

Coming here actually gave me more patience with our son, and still does, though he still seems to get easily upset at little things, unlike his sister who's more emotionally resilient.

I know that she loved me for a time, though the first time she said it to me, it was like she was forcing it past her lips, still attached and in "love" with an exBF who abandoned her. I know that at one time, when S4 was S1, she did love me, and was genuinely happy. That was real. Then it changed. Then I changed, and here I am.

Even after the confrontation over cheating, trying to work it out for a couple of weeks, and then me finally throwing in the towel and letting her go "officially" I know she still had "a love" for me, as she put it. I know she still does, while mine for her is... .I'm still searching for it. That's one reason why she keeps trying to include me in activities, I think. I could say that "it's just an attachment," but what is love if not an attachment?

In a FB accident today, and I thought my settings were solid, I saw a new profile pic she had when she was tagged in her sister's post. She and her BF looked very happy. She seemed happy on Sunday, in stark contrast to the crying and depression I heard on the phone a week ago. At the end of the day, I realize that I miss her in a way, but I don't miss that instability. If he can hack it, more power to them. They're in love, and I'm sure that's real to them. Who am I to judge?

[Blimblam]

Excluding complete sociopaths, I think everyone's capable of feeling love. That doesn't mean that it's a healthy, mature, and/or lasting love. But they are humans, and they love in their way.

pwBPD are emotionally stunted; it follows that their concept of love is typically not the same as a healthy adult's. I'm fond of the 3-year-old child analogy, myself. It helps put a lot of their behavior into perspective. No, a 3-year-old is not capable of understanding or experiencing a healthy adult relationship, but they can certainly experience love. They love their parents -- except when they're being punished or denied by them. (Sound familiar?) They love people they literally just met ("You like Barbie? You're my best friend!". These feelings are very real to them. But it's not the same kind of love that emotionally mature adults feel.

Spot on. And thats the problem for most of us here, we are trying to logically view it as to what we know of love and tried to do for them as a definition or standard of  "love", which isn't the case or something they are capable of. Doesn't mean they love us or don't its just what it is .

Exactly it's like incestuous parent child love and brother sister love.

[DangIthurts]

Excluding complete sociopaths, I think everyone's capable of feeling love. That doesn't mean that it's a healthy, mature, and/or lasting love. But they are humans, and they love in their way.

pwBPD are emotionally stunted; it follows that their concept of love is typically not the same as a healthy adult's. I'm fond of the 3-year-old child analogy, myself. It helps put a lot of their behavior into perspective. No, a 3-year-old is not capable of understanding or experiencing a healthy adult relationship, but they can certainly experience love. They love their parents -- except when they're being punished or denied by them. (Sound familiar?) They love people they literally just met ("You like Barbie? You're my best friend!". These feelings are very real to them. But it's not the same kind of love that emotionally mature adults feel.

Spot on. And thats the problem for most of us here, we are trying to logically view it as to what we know of love and tried to do for them as a definition or standard of  "love", which isn't the case or something they are capable of. Doesn't mean they love us or don't its just what it is .

Exactly it's like incestuous parent child love and brother sister love.

Yeah some will be on and off forever with the ups and downs, some will never speak over an issue

[HappyNihilist]

When S4 was S3 last year, he was mad at us. His mom--- we were co-habitating still, but not together---- said, "I love you, S3." S3 responded, "I don't love you!" His mom looked at me and said, "why is he saying that?" I replied, "to him, this feeling is real. He's 3. That's his level of love: when we're meeting his needs. When not, we're painted black. Don't worry, he'll be fine in an hour or so, back to loving us." And he was.

I left out any snarky comments like saying "go look in the mirror and maybe you'll get what he's doing," or something similar.  

Oh, this is too perfect. 

At the end of the day, I realize that I miss her in a way, but I don't miss that instability. If he can hack it, more power to them. They're in love, and I'm sure that's real to them. Who am I to judge?

You're such an awesome person, Turkish.   

And thats the problem for most of us here, we are trying to logically view it as to what we know of love and tried to do for them as a definition or standard of  "love", which isn't the case or something they are capable of. Doesn't mean they love us or don't its just what it is .

Abso-friggin'-lutely. And "it is what it is" is one of the most helpful mantras when dealing with pwBPD. (Actually, with most of life.)

[Deeno02]

Pisses me off they are wrapped in the goodess of love, while Im slowly healing, but today for some reason, im a blathering idiot, feeling unloved, unwanted not interested in any damn thing, and depressed as hell, while shes out like i didnt exist. Just hurts so damn bad at times. It really does... .

[DangIthurts]

Pisses me off they are wrapped in the goodess of love, while Im slowly healing, but today for some reason, im a blathering idiot, feeling unloved, unwanted not interested in any damn thing, and depressed as hell, while shes out like i didnt exist. Just hurts so damn bad at times. It really does... .

Yup. Most brutal part.

[Faith1520]

I think that's a great question and one I'm sure most of us have asked ourselves.

I believe that he loved me in the only way he knew how to. My counselor explained it best  (and I've read this in my research as well) with a love tank analogy - - Imagine an actual tank inside of you with a drain at the bottom. If you were shown love as a child, your tank was filled and you will be able to accept love and give love. If your tank was not filled during childhood then it remains empty and you have nothing to give and any love anyone puts in there falls right out of the bottom. His love tank is empty.

I'm a Christian and I believe that the way a p/w BPD knows how to love is not a true love. It's not the love set in the example of Jesus Christ - "Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

Even though I think I have the answer, that question still haunts me to a degree because I loved him with a love more genuine and deep than I've had for anyone else. Like many others, I gave it my all and then some.

[christoff522]

I think for a BPD, we're like characters in a holodeck novel (star trek reference). We are real in the sense that we exist, we are people in the sense that we act and behave like people, but for a BPD the only real person is them. They can have a crush on us, or an infatuation on us, but when we become annoying they'll say "computer, delete character" - out of sight out of mind.

We exist for them and their benefit, if we are not beneficial anymore they begin to despise us, they'll resent their need for us, and so they cut off all those emotional bonds and move on. In order to avoid conflict they detach in private, and then run.

Did they love us? Not in the human sense, more in the "i love this car" sense, until the car breaks and they get a new one. Too much emotion is the terror hiding in the closet for a BPD, so they'll never truly let go and develop real emotional bonds - not with anyone. Its the burden that they will carry with them all their lives unless they get help.

[christoff522]

Pisses me off they are wrapped in the goodess of love, while Im slowly healing, but today for some reason, im a blathering idiot, feeling unloved, unwanted not interested in any damn thing, and depressed as hell, while shes out like i didnt exist. Just hurts so damn bad at times. It really does... .

Deeno it might help to consider that theres a reason that she's 'wrapped in the goodness of love", its because she's ALWAYS alone. Of course it hurts, but whilst we can hurt, they can not. To hurt would be a potential death sentence, 10% of all BPDs die by suicide - and this is way above the global averages. They're truly broken people, and she is so quick to seek out someone else because her desperation not to be alone is so great it could result in her death. She's going to suffer this all her life, and she'll probably die a lot earlier than you will, and if she doesn't well, when her looks fade, and she's been through hundreds of failed relationships, she'll be that crochety old lady that no one likes, that never has a good word to say about anyone, and always moans to random people about how ill she is.

Her life is not going to be a good one.

[Deeno02]

Pisses me off they are wrapped in the goodess of love, while Im slowly healing, but today for some reason, im a blathering idiot, feeling unloved, unwanted not interested in any damn thing, and depressed as hell, while shes out like i didnt exist. Just hurts so damn bad at times. It really does... .

Deeno it might help to consider that theres a reason that she's 'wrapped in the goodness of love", its because she's ALWAYS alone. Of course it hurts, but whilst we can hurt, they can not. To hurt would be a potential death sentence, 10% of all BPDs die by suicide - and this is way above the global averages. They're truly broken people, and she is so quick to seek out someone else because her desperation not to be alone is so great it could result in her death. She's going to suffer this all her life, and she'll probably die a lot earlier than you will, and if she doesn't well, when her looks fade, and she's been through hundreds of failed relationships, she'll be that crochety old lady that no one likes, that never has a good word to say about anyone, and always moans to random people about how ill she is.

Her life is not going to be a good one.

Maybe so, she barely gets along with her family, always about her. Just irritates me I got tossed for made up crap and replaced in days. I dont know, Im doing better, but jesus christ, they just destroy without a care.

[AwakenedOne]

Did they really love us?



In retrospect the "love" she had for me is similar to that of the love Michael Vick had for his dogs.

[findingmyselfagain]

Hmmmm, at one time I thought I answered this question for myself. It's a little more difficult to say now. Part of me wants to say, No, it was all just a facade. Part of me wants to believe something was there and it may have had a chance. I'd say that yes, it's love. There are many kinds of love. For them it's either black or white. How else could she be dating me less than a month after she was divorced from the father of her 1 y/o daughter? Within 2 weeks she told me "I love you" and had her daughter calling ME "daddy"... .so I don't think this is something you can do if you don't think something is going to work out at all. From what she said and what she wrote, it sounded like she really wanted us to get married. It all came to a halt just after our wedding shower, just about a month before we were getting married. It pretty much just collapsed after that... .My guess is because she was royally freaking out about being truly intimate with me... .with me truly knowing her. I would have seen more and more how chaotic and unpredictable she is and eventually left her.

It's love, but more like an immature, teenage crush. Once the high wears off then it's over and on to the next. I can't think of a lot that's positive about the relationship. My boundaries have improved a lot. I know to pay more attention to relationship history and to move slower. I think that's wise and a good way to screen out the truly desperate. I never saw the end coming. That's for sure.

[evilpepsi]

Pisses me off they are wrapped in the goodess of love, while Im slowly healing, but today for some reason, im a blathering idiot, feeling unloved, unwanted not interested in any damn thing, and depressed as hell, while shes out like i didnt exist. Just hurts so damn bad at times. It really does... .

Deeno it might help to consider that theres a reason that she's 'wrapped in the goodness of love", its because she's ALWAYS alone. Of course it hurts, but whilst we can hurt, they can not. To hurt would be a potential death sentence, 10% of all BPDs die by suicide - and this is way above the global averages. They're truly broken people, and she is so quick to seek out someone else because her desperation not to be alone is so great it could result in her death. She's going to suffer this all her life, and she'll probably die a lot earlier than you will, and if she doesn't well, when her looks fade, and she's been through hundreds of failed relationships, she'll be that crochety old lady that no one likes, that never has a good word to say about anyone, and always moans to random people about how ill she is.

Her life is not going to be a good one.

Maybe so, she barely gets along with her family, always about her. Just irritates me I got tossed for made up crap and replaced in days. I dont know, Im doing better, but jesus christ, they just destroy without a care.

when i started dating my ex, i had an idea for a song pop into my head. the working title was "living in a memory of you" and she liked it. i told her that it was inspired by her. she was confused and said that she was still here. i told her "you may not always be. hopefully, ill never have to finish this song."

im avoiding picking up my guitar now... .

[Indyan]

I think that's a great question and one I'm sure most of us have asked ourselves.

I believe that he loved me in the only way he knew how to. My counselor explained it best  (and I've read this in my research as well) with a love tank analogy - - Imagine an actual tank inside of you with a drain at the bottom. If you were shown love as a child, your tank was filled and you will be able to accept love and give love. If your tank was not filled during childhood then it remains empty and you have nothing to give and any love anyone puts in there falls right out of the bottom. His love tank is empty.

I'm a Christian and I believe that the way a p/w BPD knows how to love is not a true love. It's not the love set in the example of Jesus Christ - "Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

Even though I think I have the answer, that question still haunts me to a degree because I loved him with a love more genuine and deep than I've had for anyone else. Like many others, I gave it my all and then some.

I do think that religion and/or meditation is the answer to me now.

I need to go back to my core values.

Thanks for this reminder.

[ShadowIntheNight]

I struggle with this. We were together 9.5 years. In retrospect, I see now that she dysregulated this past April due to the ruling in her prolonged custody case, and whereas she didn't lose custody, she didn't get anything she had hoped for. I have never heard her that angry, except one other time, and that was when the stress and rage overwhelmed her as well. I know now that was the beginning of the end for me both times.

I can't even bring myself to think about any of our times together because it is too painful. We didn't live together, and I thought her rages, stupidly, were due to her feeling stressed. Wrong again. So if I think about those times, good or bad, it just causes my heart to fail.

I think she really loved me. And if she was just mirroring me for all these years, then I have had nothing but a wasted decade in my life. And the thought of that is almost as unbearable as the memories. I don't think she is that good of an actress. If so, she could give Meryl Streep a run for her Oscars. So yes, I believe she really loved me, I believe somewhere inside of her she still does. But mostly I think she loves fear more than anything.

[enlighten me]

When I was divorcing my uBPDexw I said to my uBPDgf that I hated my wife. My exgf got upset and said that as I hated her I had feelings for her and she didnt like that.

This has had me thinking about how they see love and hate. I came to the conclussion that its all about attention. This is why love has a number of meanings for a pwBPD.  The main one being that if you loved them then you put them before anyone else. They want to be adored so if thats how they think you should show them yoy love them then they must love you in the idolisation stage as they adore you. The problem is that its not love as we imagine it in a relationship. It is a childish love that a child has to a parent providing for their every need.

[peiper]

When I was divorcing my uBPDexw I said to my uBPDgf that I hated my wife. My exgf got upset and said that as I hated her I had feelings for her and she didnt like that.

This has had me thinking about how they see love and hate. I came to the conclussion that its all about attention. This is why love has a number of meanings for a pwBPD.  The main one being that if you loved them then you put them before anyone else. They want to be adored so if thats how they think you should show them yoy love them then they must love you in the idolisation stage as they adore you. The problem is that its not love as we imagine it in a relationship. It is a childish love that a child has to a parent providing for their every need.

I have to agree. When she first started her BPD dance I poured on the love and adoration thinking that love would fix it.  After I was sick and tired of it I gave up on proving my love all the time and she got very mean. Throwing fits over nothing. I guess in that sense she was like a child.

[Infared]

When you are that self-centered you cannot love someone else. Everything is a manipulation for their "plan". No love there.

Peiper's experience is similar to mine regarding the childishness as well.

[Deeno02]

When you are that self-centered you cannot love someone else. Everything is a manipulation for their "plan". No love there.

Peiper's experience is similar to mine regarding the childishness as well.

5 shirts, 2 cups is all I got out of the relationship. I'm still so sad over this after 4 months. I did what I could. I started crashing and burning while her schedule increased. I didn't matter anymore. I was/am non existent. Don't even think she even thinks about me. Dragged my kids into it, called my daughter (D20) names like cock block and called her my wife. Believe she became jealous of my daughter when she moved back home. What mother of a young daughter does that? Shows me she has no care for anyone but herself. I loved her with all I was capable of and I wasn't good enough.

[peiper]

I don't really understand all this rumination over if they loved us. Mine did her level best to completely destroy me. No concerns when doing it. That's not love.

[Deeno02]

I don't really understand all this rumination over if they loved us. Mine did her level best to completely destroy me. No concerns when doing it. That's not love.

Well, for me as Im sure for you and the rest of us, love meant something to us Peiper. I guess Im still shocked about how it was broke off in my ass, to put it bluntly. Thinking about it helps me get a grasp of sorts on what not to do next time. I gave it away way to quickly with this lady, not going to do so again. Just putting round pegs into round holes.

[peiper]

I don't really understand all this rumination over if they loved us. Mine did her level best to completely destroy me. No concerns when doing it. That's not love.

Well, for me as Im sure for you and the rest of us, love meant something to us Peiper. I guess Im still shocked about how it was broke off in my ass, to put it bluntly. Thinking about it helps me get a grasp of sorts on what not to do next time. I gave it away way to quickly with this lady, not going to do so again. Just putting round pegs into round holes.

It meant something to myself as well. But when stabbed why worry if they loved us? Was that not the answer to the aforementioned?  I've learned through this to look at actions. Not what my fantasy is or was and not what someone mirrors.

[Deeno02]

I don't really understand all this rumination over if they loved us. Mine did her level best to completely destroy me. No concerns when doing it. That's not love.

Well, for me as Im sure for you and the rest of us, love meant something to us Peiper. I guess Im still shocked about how it was broke off in my ass, to put it bluntly. Thinking about it helps me get a grasp of sorts on what not to do next time. I gave it away way to quickly with this lady, not going to do so again. Just putting round pegs into round holes.

It meant something to myself as well. But when stabbed why worry if they loved us? Was that not the answer to the aforementioned?  I've learned through this to look at actions. Not what my fantasy is or was and not what someone mirrors.

Yep. I reflect so I dont do it again. I seem to have a bad habit of it and I dont want to fall for the BS again. And yeah, it hurts but its a tool for my processing phase.

[love2give]

Jesus Christ - "Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

Even though I think I have the answer, that question still haunts me to a degree because I loved him with a love more genuine and deep than I've had for anyone else. Like many others, I gave it my all and then some.

Being in my mid 40's, I truly never loved anyone the way I loved her and in some pathetic way I still do but in reading the quote you posted I have to come to terms with the fact that there is no way she truly loved me as she was the opposite to almost every love trait in that beautiful quote.

Thank you

[peiper]

It's a bit like dealing with a car salesman.  When trying to get the sale they try to act like your best friend. Once you buy they could care less about you unless you want to buy again. If need be I'll walk.

[Billa]

I think for a BPD, we're like characters in a holodeck novel (star trek reference). We are real in the sense that we exist, we are people in the sense that we act and behave like people, but for a BPD the only real person is them. They can have a crush on us, or an infatuation on us, but when we become annoying they'll say "computer, delete character" - out of sight out of mind.

We exist for them and their benefit, if we are not beneficial anymore they begin to despise us, they'll resent their need for us, and so they cut off all those emotional bonds and move on. In order to avoid conflict they detach in private, and then run.

Did they love us? Not in the human sense, more in the "i love this car" sense, until the car breaks and they get a new one. Too much emotion is the terror hiding in the closet for a BPD, so they'll never truly let go and develop real emotional bonds - not with anyone. Its the burden that they will carry with them all their lives unless they get help.

wow, you're describing it perfectly!

[evilpepsi]

Jesus Christ - "Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

Even though I think I have the answer, that question still haunts me to a degree because I loved him with a love more genuine and deep than I've had for anyone else. Like many others, I gave it my all and then some.

Being in my mid 40's, I truly never loved anyone the way I loved her and in some pathetic way I still do but in reading the quote you posted I have to come to terms with the fact that there is no way she truly loved me as she was the opposite to almost every love trait in that beautiful quote.

Thank you

Same here bro. I have dated a lot of women in my life and none ever stood out like she did... .

[Xidion]

They stand out because no woman with a normal brain mirrors us and makes us think we found the one. It's sad to say,  but we were tricked.  They are con artists. We started having visions of the future while we were being idealized.  Then the mask comes off.  Would you really want years and years of however your relationship was in the last 1/3 of it?  Probably not.

[Elpis]

This workshop on ":)id he/she ever love me?" is pretty eye-opening, and written by someone who is a mostly recovered pwBPD: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=68978.0

I found this fascinating, having wondered this myself when thinking "would someone who is supposed to love me and have my back treat me this way?"

People love in the way their deeply held belief system allows them to. So yes, it's love under their understanding which is likely different than your understanding of what love means in a committed romantic relationship.

But read the workshop, seriously, it gave me a new perspective on the question.

[billypilgrim]

No.  Not love.  More like infatuation.  Sure, it's all they know but that rings very hollow.  Calling something that it's not just because of a disorder doesn't make whatever the hell I experienced for the last 6 years love.  What I felt (and perhaps what you all felt as well) is more closely represented by the way a child loves a new toy.  Some toys last longer than others but no one plays with the same toys forever.  Yes, we gave our partner great joy while we were their favorite toy.  We went everywhere together.  We snuggled up together at night.  They only played with us and shut out all the other toys.  They had never gotten a toy as special or as awesome as we were to them and they wanted to play with us all the time.  But they gave us attention and played with us only on their terms, only when they were in the mood. 

Then our paint starts to chip.  Our threads begin to unravel.  Our stuffing begins to fall out.  We aren't that same toy we were when they unwrapped us at Christmas.  They start to realize this and stop playing their favorite games with us.  Do they try to put us back together?  Do they help during our times of need when our threads start to unravel?  No.  But pretty soon, there's a new shiny package under the tree for them to unwrap and "love" all over again.  Then we are shelved, only to be revisited when they get bored or one of their new toys breaks.  Or we are donated and never seen or heard from again.  Hopefully the latter is where we end up so we go to someone that loves us just the way we are.

What they gave us was not love.  Those are not the characteristics of love.  Love is permanence.  Love is understanding.  Love is reciprocal.  Love does not need.  Love does not use.    Calling it love because they don't know any better doesn't mean that it's love.  It doesn't somehow make everything that's happened "o.k."   

[Deeno02]

No.  Not love.  More like infatuation.  Sure, it's all they know but that rings very hollow.  Calling something that it's not just because of a disorder doesn't make whatever the hell I experienced for the last 6 years love.  What I felt (and perhaps what you all felt as well) is more closely represented by the way a child loves a new toy.  Some toys last longer than others but no one plays with the same toys forever.  Yes, we gave our partner great joy while we were their favorite toy.  We went everywhere together.  We snuggled up together at night.  They only played with us and shut out all the other toys.  They had never gotten a toy as special or as awesome as we were to them and they wanted to play with us all the time.  But they gave us attention and played with us only on their terms, only when they were in the mood. 

Then our paint starts to chip.  Our threads begin to unravel.  Our stuffing begins to fall out.  We aren't that same toy we were when they unwrapped us at Christmas.  They start to realize this and stop playing their favorite games with us.  Do they try to put us back together?  Do they help during our times of need when our threads start to unravel?  No.  But pretty soon, there's a new shiny package under the tree for them to unwrap and "love" all over again.  Then we are shelved, only to be revisited when they get bored or one of their new toys breaks.  Or we are donated and never seen or heard from again.  Hopefully the latter is where we end up so we go to someone that loves us just the way we are.

What they gave us was not love.  Those are not the characteristics of love.  Love is permanence.  Love is understanding.  Love is reciprocal.  Love does not need.  Love does not use.    Calling it love because they don't know any better doesn't mean that it's love.  It doesn't somehow make everything that's happened "o.k."   

Well said. Great explanation. So sad, but true.

[PaintedBlack28]

I don't think so. Maybe I'm wrong, it may depend on the severity of their condition.

[PaintedBlack28]

Very well put together, yes. I agree 100%.

[Perfidy]

Every relationship is different, who's to say who loved who? The one that was attached to me did so out of survival. She was living at home with her crazy parents, who routinely crap talk each other and everyone else too. Negative to extreme, of course, you would have to know them to see this. Did she love me? No. She lives my home and my bank account, but not me. I was a necessary inconvenience to her.

[Pingo]

This workshop on ":)id he/she ever love me?" is pretty eye-opening, and written by someone who is a mostly recovered pwBPD: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=68978.0

I found this fascinating, having wondered this myself when thinking "would someone who is supposed to love me and have my back treat me this way?"

People love in the way their deeply held belief system allows them to. So yes, it's love under their understanding which is likely different than your understanding of what love means in a committed romantic relationship.

But read the workshop, seriously, it gave me a new perspective on the question.

Thank you for this Elpis, it was interesting.  One thing that stood out, one member summarised it:

Love = Trust

There is another thread right now all about the lack of trust we had for our exes.  Me included.  So how could I have fully loved him when I didn't trust him?  Did I split my feelings of mistrust off so I could love him?  Certainly couldn't be unconditional love when I had these untrusting feelings lurking under the surface.  I agree that his love of me was immature and he saw me as an object to hold tight to.  But I also question my own love for him and how I was also immature and needy.

[Infared]

No.  Not love.  More like infatuation.  Sure, it's all they know but that rings very hollow.  Calling something that it's not just because of a disorder doesn't make whatever the hell I experienced for the last 6 years love.  What I felt (and perhaps what you all felt as well) is more closely represented by the way a child loves a new toy.  Some toys last longer than others but no one plays with the same toys forever.  Yes, we gave our partner great joy while we were their favorite toy.  We went everywhere together.  We snuggled up together at night.  They only played with us and shut out all the other toys.  They had never gotten a toy as special or as awesome as we were to them and they wanted to play with us all the time.  But they gave us attention and played with us only on their terms, only when they were in the mood.  

Then our paint starts to chip.  Our threads begin to unravel.  Our stuffing begins to fall out.  We aren't that same toy we were when they unwrapped us at Christmas.  They start to realize this and stop playing their favorite games with us.  :)o they try to put us back together?  :)o they help during our times of need when our threads start to unravel?  No.  But pretty soon, there's a new shiny package under the tree for them to unwrap and "love" all over again.  Then we are shelved, only to be revisited when they get bored or one of their new toys breaks.  Or we are donated and never seen or heard from again.  Hopefully the latter is where we end up so we go to someone that loves us just the way we are.

What they gave us was not love.  Those are not the characteristics of love.  Love is permanence.  Love is understanding.  Love is reciprocal.  Love does not need.  Love does not use.    Calling it love because they don't know any better doesn't mean that it's love.  It doesn't somehow make everything that's happened "o.k."    

Well said. Great explanation. So sad, but true.

I don't know if that is "correct"... .but it sure is exactly what I experienced from my end of things. The depth was only there on my end... .and at this point... .whatever was going on at her end... .I just don't care. That's his problem. :-)

[Deeno02]

No.  Not love.  More like infatuation.  Sure, it's all they know but that rings very hollow.  Calling something that it's not just because of a disorder doesn't make whatever the hell I experienced for the last 6 years love.  What I felt (and perhaps what you all felt as well) is more closely represented by the way a child loves a new toy.  Some toys last longer than others but no one plays with the same toys forever.  Yes, we gave our partner great joy while we were their favorite toy.  We went everywhere together.  We snuggled up together at night.  They only played with us and shut out all the other toys.  They had never gotten a toy as special or as awesome as we were to them and they wanted to play with us all the time.  But they gave us attention and played with us only on their terms, only when they were in the mood.  

Then our paint starts to chip.  Our threads begin to unravel.  Our stuffing begins to fall out.  We aren't that same toy we were when they unwrapped us at Christmas.  They start to realize this and stop playing their favorite games with us.  :)o they try to put us back together?  :)o they help during our times of need when our threads start to unravel?  No.  But pretty soon, there's a new shiny package under the tree for them to unwrap and "love" all over again.  Then we are shelved, only to be revisited when they get bored or one of their new toys breaks.  Or we are donated and never seen or heard from again.  Hopefully the latter is where we end up so we go to someone that loves us just the way we are.

What they gave us was not love.  Those are not the characteristics of love.  Love is permanence.  Love is understanding.  Love is reciprocal.  Love does not need.  Love does not use.    Calling it love because they don't know any better doesn't mean that it's love.  It doesn't somehow make everything that's happened "o.k."    

Well said. Great explanation. So sad, but true.

I don't know if that is "correct"... .but it sure is exactly what I experienced from my end of things. The depth was only there on my end... .and at this point... .whatever was going on at her end... .I just don't care. That's his problem. :-)

I wish I didn't care. The impact on me is horrible. I'm healing, but afraid to go anywhere because I'm afraid to see them together. My problem, I know.

[Infared]

No.  Not love.  More like infatuation.  Sure, it's all they know but that rings very hollow.  Calling something that it's not just because of a disorder doesn't make whatever the hell I experienced for the last 6 years love.  What I felt (and perhaps what you all felt as well) is more closely represented by the way a child loves a new toy.  Some toys last longer than others but no one plays with the same toys forever.  Yes, we gave our partner great joy while we were their favorite toy.  We went everywhere together.  We snuggled up together at night.  They only played with us and shut out all the other toys.  They had never gotten a toy as special or as awesome as we were to them and they wanted to play with us all the time.  But they gave us attention and played with us only on their terms, only when they were in the mood.  

Then our paint starts to chip.  Our threads begin to unravel.  Our stuffing begins to fall out.  We aren't that same toy we were when they unwrapped us at Christmas.  They start to realize this and stop playing their favorite games with us.  :)o they try to put us back together?  :)o they help during our times of need when our threads start to unravel?  No.  But pretty soon, there's a new shiny package under the tree for them to unwrap and "love" all over again.  Then we are shelved, only to be revisited when they get bored or one of their new toys breaks.  Or we are donated and never seen or heard from again.  Hopefully the latter is where we end up so we go to someone that loves us just the way we are.

What they gave us was not love.  Those are not the characteristics of love.  Love is permanence.  Love is understanding.  Love is reciprocal.  Love does not need.  Love does not use.    Calling it love because they don't know any better doesn't mean that it's love.  It doesn't somehow make everything that's happened "o.k."    

Well said. Great explanation. So sad, but true.

I don't know if that is "correct"... .but it sure is exactly what I experienced from my end of things. The depth was only there on my end... .and at this point... .whatever was going on at her end... .I just don't care. That's his problem. :-)

I wish I didn't care. The impact on me is horrible. I'm healing, but afraid to go anywhere because I'm afraid to see them together. My problem, I know.

Well... .that is a human problem.  I dreaded to see mine... .It was 6 months out. I was not talking to her any more but she had told me that he didn't go to the beach... .so guess where I saw them. It was one of the worse days of my life... .but it was helpful to me to.  They sat somewhere that I would most likely pass them and they had planned in advance to act out in front of me.  Like 7th graders.

It was unbelievable that two "adults" would actually behave this way... .just so disrespectful. It let me know what this person was actually capable of...    I just didn't know.  It allows me to maintain absolute NC... .so in that regard that horrible day has protected me from any more direct interaction with her.

Here is the thing.  Just concentrate how you behave if it ever happens. Not them. Act like an adult... .because the only person that you are going to walk away with is you. Then you can at least like you for the person that you are and how you behave.  ... .

[Elpis]

I'm just gonna quote some of the article by Oceanheart I referenced which seems to back up the experience of many of us:

What’s it like to love when you have borderline personality disorder?

... .I don’t know, but only because when I was not yet recovering from BPD as I am now, I couldn’t love. Not because I wasn’t capable of it (after all we people with BPD are still people) but because it wasn’t really love. It certainly felt like love to me – the only way I knew love to feel: desperate, overwhelming, consuming, and ultimately destructive. Love was like Hiroshima. It truly was a feeling of searing heat.



It was that way from the beginning of a relationship, and it was certainly that way at the end of one, and there was always an end because no healthy, normal human interaction could survive that kind of intensity. But at the beginning there was always positive passion, which understandibly made the non-BPD patner feel so exquisitely wanted. At the end of it, the passion was as strong as the start, but regardless of who ended the relationship, it was wholly negative.



People with BPD are intense by nature: one of the disorder’s basic structures is mood lability. But the force of our love – and our hate, though never indifference – comes from something altogether different: from the deep emptiness inside us, where no warmth seems to reach. It’s an absense of a sense of self, a sense of being a good person, and comes from a lack (or perceived lack) of getting our primary needs met when we were children, for whatever reason: abuse, neglect, trauma, difficult innate temperaments, invalidation, loss of a caretaker, harsh environment, whatever it may be.

Love, for an adult, unrecovered BP, is still about getting those driving, unfulfilled needs met. It’s about finding THE person to love us unconditionally who will never leave us and who will make our lives bearable, who will give us a reason to live and give us back ourselves. Ultimately, that’s why it can’t be love, because romantic love is between two people who can experience emotional intimacy and who see each other as partners and as ends in themselves. The unrecovered person with BPD is not capable of that kind of selflessness and sharing: the partner remains an object to a BP, whether the BP is conscious of it or not: the partner is the “cure” for our lonliness, a source to feed our neediness, not a person in and of themselves.

[/b]

It's such a painful truth, that at the end of the day we are more of an object than a partner.

Like you said, Pingo, there's not a reciprocal trust. I on the other hand trusted my uBPDh too long, believing that someone who says they love me more than anyone else wouldn't keep purposely injuring my soul, but then I had to realize that at least he wasn't choosing NOT to. He could hold his sh!t together for work, but he didn't see a reason or a need to hold it together for me.

There was so much I just plain did not understand and could not see. In a reciprocal relationship we each build the other up. When one person is what the whole relationship is about, it isn't a healthy "love" we have. At some level I did quit trusting him to consider my feelings at all, it was so random when he might do so. Heck, my sister died and he couldn't even manage to just hold me and comfort me.

I'm in the camp of those who are the ones who left because it got unbearable, so he very much still wants me back. Does it sound awful to say I hope he does find someone else? That way he'll leave me alone. Not that I want to run across them if he does find somebody... .   I can't even quite imagine what that feels like to those of you who have had that experience... .

[Pingo]

I'm in the camp of those who are the ones who left because it got unbearable, so he very much still wants me back. Does it sound awful to say I hope he does find someone else? That way he'll leave me alone. Not that I want to run across them if he does find somebody... .   I can't even quite imagine what that feels like to those of you who have had that experience... .

I feel the same way Elpis, mine had been seeing someone and left me alone for months but has resurfaced and started to harass me so I assume he's single again.  I also dread running into him alone or him with another woman but it does make my life easier in many ways if he's in another r/s.  He won't go long single, I used to tease him about how he had so many different gf's before me, never realising that it was a pattern of a mental disorder.

[Deeno02]

I'm just gonna quote some of the article by Oceanheart I referenced which seems to back up the experience of many of us:

What’s it like to love when you have borderline personality disorder?

... .I don’t know, but only because when I was not yet recovering from BPD as I am now, I couldn’t love. Not because I wasn’t capable of it (after all we people with BPD are still people) but because it wasn’t really love. It certainly felt like love to me – the only way I knew love to feel: desperate, overwhelming, consuming, and ultimately destructive. Love was like Hiroshima. It truly was a feeling of searing heat.



It was that way from the beginning of a relationship, and it was certainly that way at the end of one, and there was always an end because no healthy, normal human interaction could survive that kind of intensity. But at the beginning there was always positive passion, which understandibly made the non-BPD patner feel so exquisitely wanted. At the end of it, the passion was as strong as the start, but regardless of who ended the relationship, it was wholly negative.



People with BPD are intense by nature: one of the disorder’s basic structures is mood lability. But the force of our love – and our hate, though never indifference – comes from something altogether different: from the deep emptiness inside us, where no warmth seems to reach. It’s an absense of a sense of self, a sense of being a good person, and comes from a lack (or perceived lack) of getting our primary needs met when we were children, for whatever reason: abuse, neglect, trauma, difficult innate temperaments, invalidation, loss of a caretaker, harsh environment, whatever it may be.

Love, for an adult, unrecovered BP, is still about getting those driving, unfulfilled needs met. It’s about finding THE person to love us unconditionally who will never leave us and who will make our lives bearable, who will give us a reason to live and give us back ourselves. Ultimately, that’s why it can’t be love, because romantic love is between two people who can experience emotional intimacy and who see each other as partners and as ends in themselves. The unrecovered person with BPD is not capable of that kind of selflessness and sharing: the partner remains an object to a BP, whether the BP is conscious of it or not: the partner is the “cure” for our lonliness, a source to feed our neediness, not a person in and of themselves.

[/b]

It's such a painful truth, that at the end of the day we are more of an object than a partner.

Like you said, Pingo, there's not a reciprocal trust. I on the other hand trusted my uBPDh too long, believing that someone who says they love me more than anyone else wouldn't keep purposely injuring my soul, but then I had to realize that at least he wasn't choosing NOT to. He could hold his sh!t together for work, but he didn't see a reason or a need to hold it together for me.

There was so much I just plain did not understand and could not see. In a reciprocal relationship we each build the other up. When one person is what the whole relationship is about, it isn't a healthy "love" we have. At some level I did quit trusting him to consider my feelings at all, it was so random when he might do so. Heck, my sister died and he couldn't even manage to just hold me and comfort me.

I'm in the camp of those who are the ones who left because it got unbearable, so he very much still wants me back. Does it sound awful to say I hope he does find someone else? That way he'll leave me alone. Not that I want to run across them if he does find somebody... .   I can't even quite imagine what that feels like to those of you who have had that experience... .

Give, give, give, give as much as I could as i was able to. Maybe it wasnt enough, but its all i had to offer. My needs were not met at all. My PTSD from war was invalidated by her and i was accused of not wanting to spend time with her, didnt take her on vacation based off HER schedule, never bought her anything (?), etc. Kept from her friends, im so upset just writing this and i couldnt ever verbalize it to her because i would get torn apart by her. Im sure shes acting all lovey dovey with the new guy, but god, i hope she gets fu*ked over. ... .

[enlighten me]

It hurts deeno. Weve all been tgere. Twice for me now. Hopefully will never have to deal with anything like this again.

Trust me though the more you do things for you a direct your anger and pain to self improvement the better you will feel. As I said before your best revenge is to do well and be happy. My exgf got more annoyed with her ex when he was doing well and happy than by anything petty and hurtful that he ever did.

[Elpis]

Deeno02--

I can only imagine how awful it was to have your wartime PTSD invalidated! I have some understanding of what PTSD is like from the standpoint of the complex ptsd I have from my childhood. I thought my uBPDh and I would understand each other because we came from difficult childhoods, but it turned out that he blamed my childhood trauma for his own frustration and raging because sometimes I was "in that place already." Hurtful to the extreme!

It took me time to come to the realization that everything was really about him, so it was about how he felt about my trauma or how he felt about my sadness at my sister dying, and not about how I felt about those things. It's such a different way of looking at things than most of us can understand, and it comes from their brokenness as a person. I'm trying (hard!) to look at my relationship from the standpoint of my uBPDh's brokenness, that it wasn't actually personal, they were just acting out of their own deeply held but faulty belief system.

I'd like him to have his own healing, just not with me!

Those things have come with time--I think I've been grieving the loss of the relationship I thought I would have for at least 3 years even though I only left this past February... .And it still pisses me off from time to time when something comes up in my brain about what he disregarded about me. Or when I get a particularly mean text from him. And sometimes i'm just sad about the whole thing, and all the years I spent trying to do the impossible, which was have a reciprocal, loving relationship.

Blecch.

[Loveofhislife]

No.  Not love.  More like infatuation.  Sure, it's all they know but that rings very hollow.  Calling something that it's not just because of a disorder doesn't make whatever the hell I experienced for the last 6 years love.  What I felt (and perhaps what you all felt as well) is more closely represented by the way a child loves a new toy.  Some toys last longer than others but no one plays with the same toys forever.  Yes, we gave our partner great joy while we were their favorite toy.  We went everywhere together.  We snuggled up together at night.  They only played with us and shut out all the other toys.  They had never gotten a toy as special or as awesome as we were to them and they wanted to play with us all the time.  But they gave us attention and played with us only on their terms, only when they were in the mood. 

Then our paint starts to chip.  Our threads begin to unravel.  Our stuffing begins to fall out.  We aren't that same toy we were when they unwrapped us at Christmas.  They start to realize this and stop playing their favorite games with us.  Do they try to put us back together?  Do they help during our times of need when our threads start to unravel?  No.  But pretty soon, there's a new shiny package under the tree for them to unwrap and "love" all over again.  Then we are shelved, only to be revisited when they get bored or one of their new toys breaks.  Or we are donated and never seen or heard from again.  Hopefully the latter is where we end up so we go to someone that loves us just the way we are.

What they gave us was not love.  Those are not the characteristics of love.  Love is permanence.  Love is understanding.  Love is reciprocal.  Love does not need.  Love does not use.    Calling it love because they don't know any better doesn't mean that it's love.  It doesn't somehow make everything that's happened "o.k."   

Well said. Great explanation. So sad, but true.

Absolutely beautiful explanation, Billy Pilgrim. The question posed on this thread continues to haunt me. THANK GOODNESS, I never allowed "me" or my support network to be lost in my r/s with exbfBPD--and that was not for the lack of his trying. Ultimately, I believe that it was my toughness, coupled with my close friends and family, that made my exbfBPD move onto the next.  But ALL OF US believed he truly cared about me and loved me--it's why friends and family say they never brought their concerns about exbfBPD to my attention.  My daughters see it as he loved me the way a young child "loved" a parent.  In my case, I believe that's correct.  And it's extremely sad. :'(

[myself]

Great quotes from Oceanheart, very honest and revealing.

If the love is 'too hot', and yet not real, isn't the hate the same?

Makes me wonder, do pwBPD also see themselves as just an object?

[Mutt]

This thread has reached it's post limit. The thread is a worthwhile topic. You are welcome with starting a new thread. Thank you.