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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: So why do these orbiters have no boundaries?  (Read 6888 times)
Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2015, 04:24:32 PM »

Excerpt
Sunflower, I wish I read it like that but I don't. It was too callous and when I would finally go up to her, while she was on the phone with a "what the heck?" look, it was almost as if I was overreacting and kind of interfering. Maybe then, skip, there was invalidation. That she couldn't see how innappropriate it was. Now, this didn't happen every day or even every week, but enough over the course of 4 years to break the strongest. Especially when she was drinking, because she was off another planet. No, it was pure stroking of the ego.

Oh, sorry!  I see how this is different than what I was referring to.  Crud! :/
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« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2015, 04:25:57 PM »

So just to throw this out there ---- the very exact moment I decided to leave my exH was at a night club.

It involved the warm fuzzy feeling of indifference as he was doing a rendition of a Dirty Dancing scene with some nurse on the dance floor. It certainly wasn't the first time, I'd grown accustomed to it.

So the "What the heck?" was directed this time at me. It was a friend who said to me, "I think you know that you  deserve better than that?"

I did deserve better, fundamentally I knew it. There are reasons I didn't say a word to him. I have my own tale of woes and there were lots and lots of reasons I allowed my own boundaries to be plowed over.

I was also a cool, confident woman with lots of sass who can hold my own on a construction site and in a black dress with a pair of stilettos. Underneath all that though is that human part of me with my own abandonment fears. My own secret garden of doubt and pain. I can blame my exhusband for a lot of things and he was guilty of a lot mistreatment. In the end though, there are reasons I let him in. There are reasons he thought it was OK to put me down and grind on nurses with me sipping on a Pina Colada 10 feet away. There are reasons I ate it all up with a knife and fork and then kindly asked for more.

I think it just helps to figure out those reasons, so we don't let history repeat itself. Smiling (click to insert in post)

Sunflower, I wish I read it like that but I don't. It was too callous and when I would finally go up to her, while she was on the phone with a "what the heck?" look, it was almost as if I was overreacting and kind of interfering. Maybe then, skip, there was invalidation.

That would be pretty invalidating.  

Why didn't you say anything?

Did you verbalize any of your discomfort when she was actually on this planet?
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« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2015, 04:26:12 PM »

The beauty of all of this, is that I am completely letting go now. I wouldn't return to that if I was paid a billion (a million no longer holds the value that it used to) Look, I made a joke. That's a good sign. It's all very sad. I truly loved her warts and all but I am so glad to be out.
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« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2015, 04:30:10 PM »

Excerpt
So some of it was generated, especially when she was drinking, by a habit of being around a bunch of people with loose morals, for so long, where one might be with a partner who would speak to another in such loose terms, without it being a big deal. But she recounted several stories to me when she was with her ex husband where he blatantly almost pushed her aside while he would pant heavily over some girl. I mean she lived it and it hurt, so why could she not see that it was wrong for her to do to me?

Unfortunately, it had nothing to do with trying to goat me but rather that she enjoyed the attention and fed off of it. It broke me and in the end she simply proved what I had worried about all along.

She was more focused on her interpretation of gratification of "love?"  Unable to cognitively consider another?  This included You? 
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« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2015, 04:33:44 PM »

Shadow, she did that to me all the time. This guy said this, this guy said he wanted to marry me. I was, like, I don't give a f%%%, why are you telling me this? However, your explanation of emotional blackmail is quite revealing. The benefit of keeping us constantly unstable though is beyond me.

It's beyond me as well. I loved my gf. She knew this and it made (makes even now) little sense that she thought she needed to keep me off balance to control me. Maybe in her mixed up head she thought if I found out about the real her I would bolt. I guess if I knew that the real her seems to be that she's a liar, a cheater, a grifter, and blatantly narcisstitc to the point that you'd think she was the most gorgeous woman in earth, then yeah, I'd probably leave that. But that ugly so and so didn't show up for years. Until that person showed up, she was pretty awesome.

And the reason that it doesn't make sense to us is that we're upfront people. If you know who you are, you don't have to keep everyone else off balance.
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« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2015, 04:46:01 PM »

Limbo, is this ultimately trace to betrayal trauma? Her trip to meet another man?
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« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2015, 04:48:46 PM »

I did dreamgirl, but her response was always, "you didn't hear both sides of the conversation and shouldn't have been eavesdropping. You were overreacting to nothing." There is no come back to that, there is no rebuttal. Trust me, I didn't just walk away and say "oh ok". She is a waif/queen and I got a lot of queen.

Yes, skip, that is exactly what it was. But it was more, because one of the things she professed to me over and over again was that she would never do that to me (court another man) without telling me that she was doing so. There was a component of complete determination when she said this. It wasn't "oh honey, I promise" but rather "hey, if it happens, you will be the first to know" She was absolutely succinct about her independence and it's importance in her infrastructure. So, while any news of her courting a new man would have been devastating, I stuck to that statement of hers that if she did, she would. She didn't. She lied and blatantly. So yes, I felt betrayed, not only because she went after someone else but because she didn't do what she promised she would. She chose the cop out route. Both betrayals.

She did recount stories where she was devoted to another man and got burned, so by the time she got to me... .with that said she could also be so kind, thoughtful (not fake mirroring). She genuinely wanted to help at times, she wasn't asking for anything, she was just kind. This is why I see two sides, but then the switch went off and it was someone else. Cold, hard, unmoved.

I spoke with her Mother several times, on the phone (she lived across country) and while polite and classy, she was monotone and you could hear the stern adherence to decorum in her voice. This was her Mother coming out of her. I know that she started life as a very caring sweet person but her Mother was a battle axe.

I mean I could recount so much but this has been probably the most therapeutic dialogue I have had to date on BPD Family. You are an amazing bunch, thank you. This doesn't mean that I am done engaging but this felt like an appropriate time to express these thoughts. Man what a f*&^%$ journey!
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« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2015, 04:54:48 PM »

Yes, skip, that is exactly what it was. But it was more, because one of the things she professed to me over and over again was that she would never do that to me (court another man) without telling me that she was doing so.

A betrayal bond is a huge wound, LimboFL. Huge.

Maybe you are getting lost in the ancillary parts of it and not getting down to the center of this. If its a betrayal trauma, its not about orbiters or all these secondary/tertiary issues - its about the essence of making yourself completely vulnerable to someone, believing in them and the life you share, and having it shattered.

If this is how the relationship ended - even worse.
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« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2015, 04:55:44 PM »

Shadow, that is probably the most frustrating part of it all. I even said to her "do you think I am still here because this relationship has been a f*&^%^$ walk in the park. Don't you understand that I see and know more than I have expressed, that while I can't understand, that I see and that I am still f*&^%$ here!"
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« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2015, 05:04:39 PM »

Skip, you are absolutely right ( I won't tell you how emotional I am now ). It is huge and the pain has been immense. I gave so much, took her out of such a difficult situation... .So much of any stress that I imposed (not all) was in reaction to her "misbehavior". There were a number of times were I finally started just saying 'don't you understand that it's inappropriate behavior for someone in a committed relationship" She wouldn't react negatively to that, in fact I felt like I was finally using a term that she could relate to and she would stand down. In fact, as I write this, her demeanor was almost like that of a child but because I chose non threatening language, she didn't rebel.

Yes, I feel betrayed by her and it hurts deeply but I have been getting angry and more and more realize what I put myself through. That ultimately, while I knew there was a wonderful human being under there, that I would never have been able to coax that person out. She was buried in that complex layer of protective skin and like a turtle simply wasn't going to be able to come out. She was simply more comfortable living what she knew and I likely, without any demands, was simply asking too much.

I will not walk away from this thinking that I was some saint. I have my own flaws. I wasn't trying to save her but again simply to try and coax out the woman inside, because she did have moments of vulnerability where she did show herself but then it was a fast retreat.
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« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2015, 05:05:03 PM »

So just to throw this out there ---- the very exact moment I decided to leave my exH was at a night club.

It involved the warm fuzzy feeling of indifference as he was doing a rendition of a Dirty Dancing scene with some nurse on the dance floor. It certainly wasn't the first time, I'd grown accustomed to it.

So the "What the heck?" was directed this time at me. It was a friend who said to me, "I think you know that you  deserve better than that?"

I did deserve better, fundamentally I knew it. There are reasons I didn't say a word to him. I have my own tale of woes and there were lots and lots of reasons I allowed my own boundaries to be plowed over.

I was also a cool, confident woman with lots of sass who can hold my own on a construction site and in a black dress with a pair of stilettos. Underneath all that though is that human part of me with my own abandonment fears. My own secret garden of doubt and pain. I can blame my exhusband for a lot of things and he was guilty of a lot mistreatment. In the end though, there are reasons I let him in. There are reasons he thought it was OK to put me down and grind on nurses with me sipping on a Pina Colada 10 feet away. There are reasons I ate it all up with a knife and fork and then kindly asked for more.

I think it just helps to figure out those reasons, so we don't let history repeat itself. Smiling (click to insert in post)

Great story DreamGirl!
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« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2015, 05:12:34 PM »

I truly loved her warts and all... .

It's so obvious that you did. This is what makes it hurt so much.  

You were connected to this person and you invested a lot in her. Letting go of someone we love is really hard. Even when we know it's for the best. There is truth that a pwBPD finds comfort in chaos and will sometimes invoke chaos in the world surrounding them to soothe themselves. There are also reasons that we are drawn to that chaos. To trying to fix it. There's her part, there's your part. There's the perfect storm.

It's really beneficial to breakdown the loss like what you're doing. It's also why it's suggested that we dissect the feelings as they wash over us.  

Why am I so angry? Is it because I'm hurt? Wounded?

That kind of stuff.  
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« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2015, 05:14:23 PM »

Its not about "orbiters".

I think you may have this backwards. It's not about why men pursued your ex, men will always pursue women who are giving them the "green light".  Its about why your ex supported it - is giving them the "green light".

Many of my friends told me over and over that I shouldn't be so mad at my replacement, but rather her. On older friend, a mentor, even asked me, "why are you mad at him at all?" Guys (and gals) like him (who happened to be a bouncer at a club) are always out there, trolling. She's the one who chose to respond and open herself up as "available" even though he knew she was in a r/s, and at the club with me watching her little kids at home.

They are who they are, and boundaries are about us. I remember the night that she told me she exchanged numbers with him, and I commented, "do you really think that is proper?" Followed with, "he only wants your number for one reason," to which she replied, "what? So I can't have male friends now?" No, I never had an issue with her male friends or even her "work husband" we used to joke about. Of course the bouncer (now her fiancee) wanted her, but she wanted him, too.

Yes, I still feel righteous indignation by telling myself, "you don't cross that boundary," but my values aren't shared by everybody, are they? There are well over a billion or more people on the planet whose values perhaps fundamentally differ from mine. Each of them, including the mother of our children, is an independent entity with their own free will, and responsible for their own choices.
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« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2015, 05:14:55 PM »

Dreamgirl, we all will return to our former strength. You sound like you already have and I am not far behind.

I think that one of the most difficult parts of all of this is how surreal it all seems. Their actions are so beyond our comprehension that it's almost impossible to process.

How on God's green earth could a man think that it is even remotely acceptable to grind on another woman in front of his partner, or for my ex to do the things she did. This is the part that we are unable to connect with.

For what continues to be an increasing understanding of BPD, there are just some areas we will simply never be able to process because these are beyond our capacity to understand.
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« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2015, 05:19:15 PM »

Yes, I feel betrayed by her and it hurts deeply but I have been getting angry and more and more realize what I put myself through.

I don't want to over simplify this and forgive me if this sounds that way... .

Recovering is acknowledging the wound, then grieving the wound, the healing the wound.  Its one step at a time and its important to fully emerge yourself in each step.

It sounds like you are still acknowledging the wound.  :)o feel a need to rush through the next steps - acknowledge the wound. Lay it out there for you to see all the parts of it.  Share it here. Get your hands around the totality of this and why it hurts so much.

Then go on to the next steps.

Oversimplification, I know.  I hope it helps.
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« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2015, 05:28:16 PM »

Very well said. this is exactly what I have been using to kick the crap out of this.

It is normal, however, to have some anger to this unknown entity (unknown in my case because I rolled immediately) but it is more about why did you have to... .but ultimately, yes, it is 100% about our ex's. The blame and the fault lies at their feet entirely.

I am going back to something Raisin said a number of posts back. In our attempt to reason with it all, from time to time, we revert to the disorder, as though our ex's have no control... .but they do. They make conscious (albeit irresponsible and hurtful) decisions (that are founded on the psychology they know best and feel most comfortable with) but I know my ex can determine right from wrong.

The only diferentiator is the phenomenon of detachment, where they go completely cold. They don't go of into some lala land but the detachment affords them the comfort of deciding to simply say goodbye to one, no matter how long or arduous the investment on the part of the partner was and move onto the next because that new toy is causing a bubble up of those good feelings. Without the empathy component, they don't believe that they are doing anything wrong.
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« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2015, 05:38:03 PM »

Thank you Dreamgirl. I appreciate the recognition that, at least to me, this was very real and yes there was a lot of investment.

Skip, you are a champ. Thank you. Here is the funny part, a week ago, prior to my 2 day (cut short by me) recycle, I was smiling, happy, had had a wonderful email chat with a very pretty nurse through a dating site and was feeling completely out of it. So I know that it's possible and how it feels.

Getting thrown back into it, because I had no other choice (her dog and companion of 16 years had a massive stroke and without a car she needed help). I was love bombed and it felt very good. I was cautious mind you but it felt good. Then retreat, conformation that just the week before she was on that trip and I am gone. I helped her take the pup ( who I love dearly ) to the vet and even paid, so I did help so feel no guilt, but that threw me back into the loop. It did serve as a reminder. If I hadn't had found proof, I would likely still be helping her, taking her to work, taking care of the dog etc. Finding that proof saved me, it really did.

Maybe it is the finality, because my last text to her was "please never contact me again, you swore by your honesty, Wow, wrong!"

Closure! Not desired but necessary.

I am processing and will be fine. It's just that some very deep things have been revealed in this thread and some comprehension of emotional impact were shared, which have been a comfort in their recognition, a validation, which is why we are all here.

Thank you!
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« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2015, 05:39:16 PM »

We are all paying it forward,  LimboFL .

Again, before its goes to blame, maybe it will be easier to just observe and embrace the wound. If you were in a car wreck and had a serious injury - your thoughts would center on the injury - not who was at fault.  Save that for later.  In a lot of ways, its not that important anymore - its over.

One thing that I learned, personally, is that as hurtful as the other person may have been, we can get stuck if we get caught up in anger and bitterness toward them - we have to fight ourselves a bit to stay emotionally clean.

Anger is part of the grieving process. It's time will come.  But anger can also be a form of denial for us early on - you don't want that - and you sound very early in this.

 (in masculine way)

Feel it.  Get it all out.  Cry over it (in whatever way you cry).  Purge the emotion.

Then start grieving.
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« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2015, 05:40:10 PM »

******I crossed with Skip, with some of the same sentiment.

I like simplicity.

I also wouldn't get too wrapped up in the blame game. It's counter-productive. The roles we played comes later.

How on God's green earth could a man think that it is even remotely acceptable to grind on another woman in front of his partner, or for my ex to do the things she did. This is the part that we are unable to connect with.

For what continues to be an increasing understanding of BPD, there are just some areas we will simply never be able to process because these are beyond our capacity to understand.

Thing is... .the BPD mind is mysterious.

I also think you have every capability of understanding it. Once you can separate a little bit from the emotional aspect of it (where it feels really personal), we find ourselves in a place to let the knowledge sink in.

Not that you condone any of what happened, just an ability to wrap your head around it. See it as a stepping stone in your journey.
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« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2015, 05:43:48 PM »

For the record, I am not a blame game type. Hopefully my expressions of caring and compassion prove that real anger is not going to come from me. I don't need it to get passed this. I am processing and tomorrow is another day. I will not remain in this, in fact, I was ok all day. I am not too far from the end. I won't allow myself to go through this much longer. However, as you say skip, it is a process and we have to allow it to take it's course, as hard as it may be.

Thank you everyone.
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« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2015, 05:44:31 PM »

I truly loved her warts and all... .

It's so obvious that you did. This is what makes it hurt so much.  

You were connected to this person and you invested a lot in her. Letting go of someone we love is really hard. Even when we know it's for the best. There is truth that a pwBPD finds comfort in chaos and will sometimes invoke chaos in the world surrounding them to soothe themselves. There are also reasons that we are drawn to that chaos. To trying to fix it. There's her part, there's your part. There's the perfect storm.

It's really beneficial to breakdown the loss like what you're doing. It's also why it's suggested that we dissect the feelings as they wash over us.  

Why am I so angry? Is it because I'm hurt? Wounded?

That kind of stuff.  

I think there is truth for me in some of what ur saying. I think I wanted to prove to her that she could have a loving caring relationship and be valued and loved for herself. I wanted to give her comfort, strength, humor, relaxation, all the things she claimed had been missing in her life. It's just the way you've said it here solidifies it for me that that was what I was striving for. I was trying to be the calm port in the storms of her life and even though I was, she didn't want the port. She preferred the storms.
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« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2015, 05:47:25 PM »

I agree dreamgirl. However, while we may be able to reason around it, unless we live it, it will remain a confounding unknown. To be honest, I don't ever want to know what it is like, which is exactly why I was so compassionate (within reason). I never tried to save or change but rather saw her grapple with it day after day. It was heartbreaking until it led to betrayal. Once it crossed that line in the sand, the die was cast.
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« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2015, 05:49:07 PM »

I was trying to be the calm port in the storms of her life and even though I was, she didn't want the port. She preferred the storms.

Beautifully said Shadow. This is exactly how I felt and what I had hoped.
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« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2015, 05:57:20 PM »

thank you for the hugs and the heart, Dreamgirl, needed! I can't wait to get a real hug when I am ready for a new relationship. =)
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« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2015, 05:58:25 PM »

Thank you all, again, this has been very cathartic and therapeutic. Great bunch. Wish I could meet you all!
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« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2015, 10:14:22 PM »

Staff only

The topic of discussion has reached it's post limit and is locked. A new similar topic of discussion is welcome.
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