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Author Topic: So why do these orbiters have no boundaries?  (Read 6890 times)
LimboFL
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« on: March 18, 2015, 09:02:41 AM »

Despite having spent a good three years, on and off, learning about BPD, my focus was always on trying to understand how the disorder effected my exBPDgf, how I could cope and how I could change my own reactions to negate negative reaction.

Recently though, as I have read through all of the stories, the word that has struck a chord is "orbiter". Whomever coined this word was an absolute genius. It describe these people perfectly.

Who are they anyway? I mean we all have friends of the opposite sex, so there is communication between sexes even when one is dealing in a committed relationship, but these people are different. They cross boundaries and our pwBPD allow them to, like it's a game.

I have been in multiple situations, where an old girlfriend or even an old friend and I would start speaking about old times and I could feel the wind changing on both sides to a decidedly more intimate breeze. I would always gently pull back and in a couple of cases, I even said that it wasn't appropriate to go further down this path because either both parties were or at least one was in a committed relationship and that it wasn't fair to the respective partners to even speak to each other like this.

So why do these orbiters have no boundaries?

I suspect that there is no answer, but I thought it might be interesting to explore the source of the pain that many of us felt during our relationships.
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« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2015, 09:29:14 AM »

Its not about "orbiters".

I think you may have this backwards. It's not about why men pursued your ex, men will always pursue women who are giving them the "green light".  Its about why your ex supported it - is giving them the "green light".

The term "orbitor" is misleading as it puts the focus on the third party when this is really all about the pwBPD traits.  Moving away from the junk psychology jargon, I think the real question here is:

Question: Why did my ex keep maintain "friendships" with other eligible men during my relationship?

Answer: Fear of abandonment.

It's may not be so obvious at first, but fear of abandonment is not our exes fear that we will leave them per se'- it's the lifestyle they adopt so that they are not vulnerable to this devastating fear.

Think of fear of heights.  A person with fear of heights does not gravitate to high places with  strong railings - they gravitate to low places. A person with a fear of abandonment does not gravitate to stronger relationships - they gravitate to a place of plentiful/replacement relationships and proxy relationships.

So, one way for a pwBPD to reduce their vulnerability is to have multiple sources of attachment or attachment in waiting.  These sources are can take form in many ways - but the common theme is that they (along with you) create a safety net against enduring fear of being abandonment, rejected, estranged.

Ironically, when they are most attached to you or the least attached to you (and therefore most vulnerable), they may also feel the greatest need for a safety net.  This is why we see what appears to be self-sabotaging, or relationship sabotaging behavior at time when the relationship is peaking or going into a valley in some way.

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newlifeBPDfree
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2015, 09:35:10 AM »

Myb exBPDh would always surround himself with girls and he always seek validation and admiration from them. He claimed it was because he had 4 sisters but there is so much more to it. During our 10 year marriage there was always some ex from the past trying to reconnect with him.
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2015, 09:44:35 AM »

Yeah a pwBPD doesn't do the things they do because they are evil it is because underneath it all they are a terrified child.
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2015, 09:46:37 AM »

Yeah a pwBPD doesn't do the things they do because they are evil it is because underneath it all they are a terrified child.

Yes, unless there is some sociopath/narcissistic PD mixed into it. Then they are a bit more evil... .
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2015, 09:47:11 AM »

Then they are a bit more evil... .

We try to stay away from the term "evil" here. It's black and white thinking - good(us) vs evil(them) - and it is not helpful toward understanding the loaded relationship bonds we entered into and struggle we have with them after the relationship is over.

Yeah a pwBPD doesn't do the things they do because they are evil it is because underneath it all they are a terrified child.

It's a bad analogy, but a dog is most dangerous when it is weak or afraid.  I think this is true of a relationship partner too.
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« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2015, 10:37:24 AM »

I think you may have this backwards. It's not about why men pursued your ex, men will always pursue women who are giving them the "green light".  Its about why your ex supported it - is giving them the "green light".

No they don't.  I don't pursue women that are in relationships no matter what signal they give.
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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2015, 10:41:05 AM »

Yeah a pwBPD doesn't do the things they do because they are evil it is because underneath it all they are a terrified child.

The way I define evil, then yes they are evil.

If something is not evil because you can place some of the blame on innate disposition or outside influences, then I feel the meaning of the term evil is diluted to a point where the word doesn't have much practical meaning.

BPDs have will, they have minds that make decisions, they are capable of perceiving reality... .if they do bad things over and over then they are in fact a bad person.

Personally, evil is a bit too mystical to me, so I won't use it too much.  But if a BPD is not evil, then a serial killer compelled by ASPD and an abusive childhood is not evil either.  Really, no one is because the concept of (absolute) free will is being pushed a bit too much.
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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2015, 10:41:34 AM »

Thank you Skip for reframing that! Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

What you say makes complete sense!

My xuBPDbf would get angry at his xuBPDw's uNPDh for: giving in to her, putting up with her, reinforcing her etc.  I guess it was projection on his part, projecting anger that would have been directed at himself unto her new H.  He would behave as though his exwife was a victim of her H and therefore less accountable for the vindictive behaviors she presented to us.

This infuriated me!  The woman abusing and using us and his D was in a way innocent in his eyes!  (While we were all being abused his focus was often on protecting HER!)

Looking back, I now think it helped him to cope with his bad feelings and guilt, just like all projection.

I wonder if he threw his projections instead of just off himself, to his exwife, but then a farther distance to her H... .I wonder if this helps to get the projection farther away from himself?  

What do you think about this "long distance projecting?" Idea
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« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2015, 10:59:39 AM »

No they don't.

I was using "men" in the plural sense as there will always be [some] men that will... .

I don't pursue women that are in relationships no matter what signal they give.

That you know about... .

It's not so black and white. What we don't know is what the other men have been told.

She told me she loved me within 3 weeks.  However, even during this idealization phase, she would ignore me when other men were around... . She also was very odd about communications and her phone and was very private about whom she was in contact (as in never once mentioned the sender of or receiver of 100s of texts she made in front of me).  

The person receiving these texts could very well have been a lover - you didn't know who it was at the time - and you believed what she told you (that she loved you).

This is often how it plays out.

I'm not defending anyone.  I'm not saying it is always this way (or another way).  

I am saying that it can be pretty murky and it mostly comes down to the partners behavior.  At the very least, it is their responsibility (and yours) to honor the relationship fidelity.

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« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2015, 11:17:07 AM »

Its not about "orbiters".

I think you may have this backwards. It's not about why men pursued your ex, men will always pursue women who are giving them the "green light".  Its about why your ex supported it - is giving them the "green light".

The term "orbiter" is misleading as it puts the focus on the third party when this is really all about the pwBPD traits.  Moving away from the junk psychology jargon, I think the real question here is:

Question: Why did my ex keep maintain "friendships" with other eligible men during my relationship?



Great line of thought, Skip!

In our case, while her being socially isolated, yet men "popped out" from literally every avenues of life. The discussions instantly turned into sexually charged, a "strategy" she unconsciously utilized for bonding, sending out green light signals, teasing them in an unacceptable way for someone in a committed relationship.

One of them was a local librarian. I hope none of the members take it as an offense, but realistically speaking, an extremely attractive, sexually "liberal", tattooed, model like woman would be well out reach. Of course they(we) stick around with for the prospect of a once a lifetime ride.

The common denominator, orbiters/replacements alike, that we all had our own flawed idea of reference, making what the a pwBPD could offer extremely valuable.

Letting go also means *letting go of the outcome of the Borderline’s attachments*.  This is especially painful as jealousy can be when thinking about the other woman involved and your comparison to her.   There are ALWAYS other people involved when you are with a Borderline. The disorder demands that they compulsively line up BENCHWARMERS. The fantasy is that everyone thinks they are a starting quarterback only to find out that someone else is in the game (that you may have never even heard of before) Meanwhile you’ve been eying someone else as a rival who was being played just like you are.

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« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2015, 11:18:14 AM »

I was never an orbiter. However, I was caught in a triangulation with one of her orbiters, an alcoholic exbf. He was a sad chap, completely broken by women. I am very sure that my BPDexgf had a lot to do with his demise.

My BPDexgf is strikingly attractive (On the outside mind you, we all know what's on the inside of a pwBPD, not pretty!). She was/is extremely adept at handling multiple men. As mentioned in a few previous post; her orbiters always, in my opinion, were beneath her; they were men who had problems. (This opinion was formed/valid before I knew of her problems.) I think she chose men with problems because they were easy to control. I never fit into that category, and that caused her problems. She told me on several occasions that I scared her... .I think she knew that she was never going to "handle" me.

But boy, did I ever put up with more insanity than I ever would have if she would not have been who she was, you can bet the house on it. Our history goes all the way back to childhood, so I ignored a lot of red flags flapping in the wind and a lot of emotional abuse. I am a very strong and intelligent man, but I let hope reign for a long time in the dysfunctional/chaotic relationship with my BPDexgf, far too long. I am not happy with my behavior regarding myself.

The true fact of the matter is that the common denominator in all of these post is the people with BPD. The orbiters were never the problem; the pwBPD is the problem. If a pwBPD could be trusted, orbiters would be a moot point. It's a sad existence no doubt.

   
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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2015, 01:53:58 PM »

Several years before we became a couple, I hired my ex for a job.  He was married at the time.  He worked with me 5 days a week for almost a year.  At first the green light was subtle.   Then not so subtle.  He was intense.  The flirting was intense.   

While I felt that his conduct with me was inappropriate, I concluded that he was acting-out because he was unhappy in his marriage.  The working relationship didn't evolve into a sexual relationship.  I feel, however, that we had an emotional affair during that time.  In my mind, that is cheating.  I'm not proud of it. 

Years later, after he divorced, we became a couple.  I inquired about his behavior years earlier.  He explained that his emotional needs weren't being met by his wife.  When we worked together, I met those needs.  (Listening, nurturing, reassurance, emotional support)

He repeated that cycle with my replacement.  His reasoning was I "would leave."  (Fear of abandonment.)
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« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2015, 02:04:03 PM »

I don't really like the term "orbiters" either.  

I feel like it's a victim thought process --- and the thought that if we could somehow change the way people act or feel, our lives would be less complicated. Are we "annoyed" because they are annoying... .or because we're afraid? I mean if there weren't women willing to engage in an affair with a married man, affairs wouldn't happen.

Boundaries are about "us". We can only control "us".  

When I was single, I had many friends including men who were willing to have dinner with me with no strings attached. Or fix my car if I bought a six pack and kept him company while he did the work. Or watch a movie with nothing but a promise of microwave popcorn. Or listen to me whine as I complained about my job or ex-husband.

The boundaries were on me to be clear that I wasn't interested sexually. A lot of men were OK with that. Some weren't. If it got uncomfortable, the fact that I wasn't interested was reiterated.

I also think there are women (and men) who struggle in that arena, are willing to lead men on, and men who are willing to participate with a certain hope for a relationship.

Different values.

Sometimes it feels good to be in the presence of someone who you are attracted to, who makes you laugh, who has interesting stories to tell... .intimacy isn't always about romance. If boundaries are present in any relationship, friendship with anyone can be beneficial to all involved. I mean, I think of guy friends who have let me into the secrets of the man code. Smiling (click to insert in post)

I guess my point is to agree that it isn't so black and white.

Generalizing doesn't help the process either. For me, it's about learning to recognize unhealthy patterns in these relationships and growing from them. Figuring out what your own boundaries are and what you are willing to allow in your committed relationship.  
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« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2015, 02:28:32 PM »

Its not about "orbiters".

I think you may have this backwards. It's not about why men pursued your ex, men will always pursue women who are giving them the "green light".  Its about why your ex supported it - is giving them the "green light".

The term "orbitor" is misleading as it puts the focus on the third party when this is really all about the pwBPD traits.  Moving away from the junk psychology jargon, I think the real question here is:

Question: Why did my ex keep maintain "friendships" with other eligible men during my relationship?

Answer: Fear of abandonment.

It's may not be so obvious at first, but fear of abandonment is not our exes fear that we will leave them per se'- it's the lifestyle they adopt so that they are not vulnerable to this devastating fear.

Think of fear of heights.  A person with fear of heights does not gravitate to high places with  strong railings - they gravitate to low places. A person with a fear of abandonment does not gravitate to stronger relationships - they gravitate to a place of plentiful/replacement relationships and proxy relationships.

So, one way for a pwBPD to reduce their vulnerability is to have multiple sources of attachment or attachment in waiting.  These sources are can take form in many ways - but the common theme is that they (along with you) create a safety net against enduring fear of being abandonment, rejected, estranged.

Ironically, when they are most attached to you or the least attached to you (and therefore most vulnerable), they may also feel the greatest need for a safety net.  This is why we see what appears to be self-sabotaging, or relationship sabotaging behavior at time when the relationship is peaking or going into a valley in some way.

I 100% agree with you. Guys you can't blame her "guy friends" you do realize borderlines lie right? My ex had guys friends too and she ran me into the ground behind my back to get attention and money from them. Correct me if I'm wrong but... .I do believe we are here because we believe the (lie)... right?
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« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2015, 02:33:32 PM »

Yeah a pwBPD doesn't do the things they do because they are evil it is because underneath it all they are a terrified child.

A terrified child doesn't leave with your baby too never return. They do many evil things.
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« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2015, 02:35:43 PM »

I am growing increasingly sorry that I asked this question because ultimately this is what turned me upside down in my relationship. I was a solid, secure and trusting man when I walked into this relationship but she just chipped away at that security with every passing event.

I couldn't believe that someone could be so blatant. Sometimes it wasn't even about an orbiter but rather comments like "every guy who drives a Porsche is hot" or "man that actor is hot" There were many occasions where I flat out said "I think about women on the street as beautiful or an actor, but I don't verbalize it, it's does not contribute to the dynamic of our relationship" Her response was " I don't like to be censored" What the heck?

But the orbiters I was speaking of were men that have been ex lovers or "close friends" for years. As there was no ring on her finger (because I refused to propose until she took the foot she had out the door in), I can't control the orbiters nor care about the ones who didn't even know I existed. On that front, yes it was the responsibility solely of my ex. She did pull back after a while, but it was likely just more hidden. The problem was at that point, my nerves had been so frayed that I had zero trust. I held almost everything in except when it was just too obvious. In the end she just proved me right.

Actually now that I have just written this all out, it is adding to the pile of "Thank God's" I keep adding up in my head, that I am out of that. I can't and will never be able to compute that kind of mentality.
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« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2015, 02:56:46 PM »

I was a solid, secure and trusting man when I walked into this relationship but she just chipped away at that security with every passing event.

That's what recovery is about. Asking the hard questions as to how the heck this happened? How did we allow it?

This stuff hurts. Some of the most painful experience in my life are when I've allowed myself to be treated poorly. It's embarrassing. It makes me angry that I allowed it. It hurts.  

From the Self-Inquiry pop-up -------------------->

In any process for working with feelings, it's important to find a way to explore your feelings that allows you both to be present with them (engage the emotion) at times and to stand aside from them (be impartial) and to know when each is appropriate. It sometimes helps to take little time to care for the part of you that needs comforting before you start this journey.

I couldn't believe that someone could be so blatant. Sometimes it wasn't even about an orbiter but rather comments like "every guy who drives a Porsche is hot" or "man that actor is hot" There were many occasions where I flat out said "I think about women on the street as beautiful or an actor, but I don't verbalize it, it's does not contribute to the dynamic of our relationship" Her response was " I don't like to be censored" What the heck?

I verbalize when I think someone's good looking. Male or female.

The other night at the grand opening of a "Hooters" type establishment, I joked with my husband and my son as they were oogling at the waitresses. I actually accurately predicted who my husband would pick as the best looking waitress. I know his affinity to blondes with long legs.  He also knows to hug me for being the winner of that prediction. Smiling (click to insert in post)

But there's comfort and security in our relationship. There's boundaries. There's open communication.

When you are missing any one of those components, this happens:

"I think about women on the street as beautiful or an actor, but I don't verbalize it, it's does not contribute to the dynamic of our relationship"

 

Was that about your own insecurity in the relationship?

Was it about her lack of boundaries? Lack of impulse control?  

I can understand her being defensive if she didn't mean anything by it?  Or do you think she did it to make you jealous?  Feel bad?
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« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2015, 02:58:24 PM »

I am growing increasingly sorry that I asked this question because ultimately this is what turned me upside down in my relationship. I was a solid, secure and trusting man when I walked into this relationship but she just chipped away at that security with every passing event.

I couldn't believe that someone could be so blatant. Sometimes it wasn't even about an orbiter but rather comments like "every guy who drives a Porsche is hot" or "man that actor is hot" There were many occasions where I flat out said "I think about women on the street as beautiful or an actor, but I don't verbalize it, it's does not contribute to the dynamic of our relationship" Her response was " I don't like to be censored" What the heck?

But the orbiters I was speaking of were men that have been ex lovers or "close friends" for years. As there was no ring on her finger (because I refused to propose until she took the foot she had out the door in), I can't control the orbiters nor care about the ones who didn't even know I existed. On that front, yes it was the responsibility solely of my ex. She did pull back after a while, but it was likely just more hidden. The problem was at that point, my nerves had been so frayed that I had zero trust. I held almost everything in except when it was just too obvious. In the end she just proved me right.

Actually now that I have just written this all out, it is adding to the pile of "Thank God's" I keep adding up in my head, that I am out of that. I can't and will never be able to compute that kind of mentality.

I've been where you were at. Trust me... .I wanted to fight every guy. But it's worthless. Just like she is. Worthless. It's my fault I didn't kick to the curb.
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« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2015, 03:43:23 PM »

Dream girl, thank you so much for the first part of your post (not that I am ungrateful about the second). I will put it to you this way, my ex wife used to flirt, from time to time, when we were in a club but she would glance over at me with a look that just said, I am just playing. I didn't think twice about it.

No this was more about it being a constant in the relationship with my exBPD. In and of itself, saying the two comments that I posted would have meant nothing to me, it was after you compiled all of the comments, the inappropriate hang outs, from time to time.

I brought up the orbiters for a reason, because the old boyfriends contacting her etc... .it just chipped away at me slowly but surely. The examples I gave were probably not good ones. It was inappropriate phone conversations that had sexual undertones (often speaking of the past not what was desired now but still) It was all too much.

Your example with you and your husband, I am totally comfortable with that, in fact my ex wife and I had no problem expressing these types of little things. Being a very secure man, I would agree if I saw a good looking guy and vice versa.

I could get into much more that would bolster my "case" but it's not necessary.

I spent four years absorbing all of it and trying to be strong. I have said it before, I actually trust that she was faithful but man did she get so close to the boundary. It was sensory overload. So no, it wasn't about my own insecurities. I am a good looking, fit 47 year old man who looks quite a bit younger.

Again, I am deeply grateful for your section on recovery. I guess I am not completely there yet but I am damn close.  
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« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2015, 03:49:27 PM »

thanks hurting, you are 100% right!
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« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2015, 03:52:32 PM »

What really bothered you in these events? 

Can you narrow it - pinpoint it?

~Betrayal?

~Trust?

~Invalidation?

~Disrespect?
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« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2015, 03:55:01 PM »

My experience with this is that if someone comes on to you or your partner the thing to do is shut them down before they can construe that the involvement will not becoming intimate. When I was hit on, this is exactly what I'd do. I mean in reality you can't stop people from doing that. But you can stop them from thinking if they have a chance or not.

My uBPDexgf on the other hand didn't do this. I don't know if she enjoyed the attention, if she wanted to make me jealous or what. But I do know that if anyone, particularly women, acted like they were coming on to her she was all for that. Don't ask me why. But I really think due to her responses of happiness that they were hitting on her, that it was mostly to stroke her weak ego.

The point I'm making is that people in her life will only presume they can "move in" if they're given the permission that it's ok to do so. If someone is orbiting another it's because they have the impression that it's all right to do so. I am pretty sure the folks who she kept in the back burners of her life are there because she has told them it's all right to be there. Otherwise who stays where they aren't wanted?
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« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2015, 03:58:22 PM »

Excerpt
I am growing increasingly sorry that I asked this question because ultimately this is what turned me upside down in my relationship. I was a solid, secure and trusting man when I walked into this relationship but she just chipped away at that security with every passing event.

I couldn't believe that someone could be so blatant. Sometimes it wasn't even about an orbiter but rather comments like "every guy who drives a Porsche is hot" or "man that actor is hot" There were many occasions where I flat out said "I think about women on the street as beautiful or an actor, but I don't verbalize it, it's does not contribute to the dynamic of our relationship" Her response was " I don't like to be censored" What the heck?

But the orbiters I was speaking of were men that have been ex lovers or "close friends" for years. As there was no ring on her finger (because I refused to propose until she took the foot she had out the door in), I can't control the orbiters nor care about the ones who didn't even know I existed. On that front, yes it was the responsibility solely of my ex. She did pull back after a while, but it was likely just more hidden. The problem was at that point, my nerves had been so frayed that I had zero trust. I held almost everything in except when it was just too obvious. In the end she just proved me right.

Actually now that I have just written this all out, it is adding to the pile of "Thank God's" I keep adding up in my head, that I am out of that. I can't and will never be able to compute that kind of mentality.

Sounds like a gal who is pushing your buttons for a reaction from you.

Sounds like she knew it would wear you down.

Getting you frustrated likely made her feel like she matters to you?
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« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2015, 04:00:10 PM »

Skip,

What really bothered you in these events?  

Can you narrow it - pinpoint it?

~Betrayal?

~Trust?

~Invalidation?

~Disrespect?

That is difficult to answer because these are feelings that insert themselves at different times. Yes, disrespect, when they were happening. Shadowinthenight expressed it all perfectly. Trust erosion followed and like silt, kept eroding. After a while it did become betrayal. Invalidation has never been an issue for me. I have always and am still confident enough, but the three effects mentioned have been sufficient to cause a great deal of pain. Confusion too, because as Shadow mentioned, I would never put a loving partner through any of it. Again it is about the whole and not the parts.
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« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2015, 04:04:04 PM »

Sunflower, I wish I read it like that but I don't. It was too callous and when I would finally go up to her, while she was on the phone with a "what the heck?" look, it was almost as if I was overreacting and kind of interfering. Maybe then, skip, there was invalidation. That she couldn't see how innappropriate it was. Now, this didn't happen every day or even every week, but enough over the course of 4 years to break the strongest. Especially when she was drinking, because she was off another planet. No, it was pure stroking of the ego.
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« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2015, 04:06:05 PM »

That is difficult to answer because these are feelings that insert themselves at different times.

Getting in touch with the real feeling is essential to healing it. We often avoid it as it is painful and go after other safe targets - getting down to what hurt will help you understand, heal, and avoid it going forward.

She likely signaled this for some time but you didn't know how painful it would ultimately be for you.

Now you can figure it out.
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« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2015, 04:08:49 PM »

Excerpt
I am growing increasingly sorry that I asked this question because ultimately this is what turned me upside down in my relationship. I was a solid, secure and trusting man when I walked into this relationship but she just chipped away at that security with every passing event.

I couldn't believe that someone could be so blatant. Sometimes it wasn't even about an orbiter but rather comments like "every guy who drives a Porsche is hot" or "man that actor is hot" There were many occasions where I flat out said "I think about women on the street as beautiful or an actor, but I don't verbalize it, it's does not contribute to the dynamic of our relationship" Her response was " I don't like to be censored" What the heck?

But the orbiters I was speaking of were men that have been ex lovers or "close friends" for years. As there was no ring on her finger (because I refused to propose until she took the foot she had out the door in), I can't control the orbiters nor care about the ones who didn't even know I existed. On that front, yes it was the responsibility solely of my ex. She did pull back after a while, but it was likely just more hidden. The problem was at that point, my nerves had been so frayed that I had zero trust. I held almost everything in except when it was just too obvious. In the end she just proved me right.

Actually now that I have just written this all out, it is adding to the pile of "Thank God's" I keep adding up in my head, that I am out of that. I can't and will never be able to compute that kind of mentality.

Sounds like a gal who is pushing your buttons for a reaction from you.

Sounds like she knew it would wear you down.

Getting you frustrated likely made her feel like she matters to you?

This sounds very much like a version of my question about why an ex would tell me "I am in our relationship because I want to be not because I need to be." Who tells their partner such a lame thing? But her reason for doing it, I am clear now was a way to keep me off balance.

I've been reading a book about Emotional Blackmail and keeping your partner on the defensive and off balance is a way for them to maintain control of you in the relationship. My ex would tell me the kinds of the things you're talking about tho she never mentioned the things like Porsches, etc. hers was more on the lines of I heard from the guy I dated before my exH.

Do you think that guy emailed her out of the blue? No, she contacted him. Told him she was divorced and oh btw, forgot to mention she had been in a relationship for, at that time, 2 years. She also told me about other ex's or former "friends" contacting her and asking how she was. That I know of she never mentioned she was in a relationship. Why did she tell me, to be upfront in our relationship? No. It was just another subtle way of her telling me she could leave at anytime.

And you know, if you put a ring on it and indeed married her, she'd still find a way to get gone. That is their total MO even when they are married. I am sorry we both experienced such disrespect to ourselves.
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« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2015, 04:19:11 PM »

You are correct skip. I buried them and she had me believing that I was overeating. But I couldn't shake my moral foundation. She grew up under different circumstances than I, often with men who had less ethical boundaries. I can assure that I am no saint, I have lived but there are different levels. I pulled her out of a huge coke habit and away from a "career" where she was not a participant but rather an administrator. I know, because she would call me when she was having a rough night with a bunch of dramatic girls, she was dealing with.

She thanked me over and over again for giving her a sense of normalcy, of stability and of structure. That I gave her a feeling of being part of something good. We drank and danced and smoked a little but I was not interested in the hard stuff anymore. In other words, she didn't fall into a house of worship, but it was calm and away from that life.

So some of it was generated, especially when she was drinking, by a habit of being around a bunch of people with loose morals, for so long, where one might be with a partner who would speak to another in such loose terms, without it being a big deal. But she recounted several stories to me when she was with her ex husband where he blatantly almost pushed her aside while he would pant heavily over some girl. I mean she lived it and it hurt, so why could she not see that it was wrong for her to do to me?

Unfortunately, it had nothing to do with trying to goat me but rather that she enjoyed the attention and fed off of it. It broke me and in the end she simply proved what I had worried about all along.
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« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2015, 04:23:16 PM »

Shadow, she did that to me all the time. This guy said this, this guy said he wanted to marry me. I was, like, I don't give a f%%%, why are you telling me this? However, your explanation of emotional blackmail is quite revealing. The benefit of keeping us constantly unstable though is beyond me.
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