Just what's behind our obsession to over diagnose our partners as psychopaths?

[Skip]

This was in our international news feed; an article by Jeremy E Sherman Ph.D:


 
Just what's behind our obsession with how to diagnose narcissists?
~ Jeremy E Sherman Ph.D

[Amateur] mental diagnostics are a double-edged sword. They’re scientific-sounding and credible, which means they’re strong and incisive. And yet they’re heavily value laden.

People use them to cut through nonsense. For example deciding that someone is a narcissist is a good way to stop pouring over the details of their self-rationalizations.

But we also use them to create nonsense, for example when we ignore other people’s reasons, because after all, they’re just narcissists. Narcissists are very good at diagnosing narcissism to get what they want. If you disappoint them, then you must be a narcissist and it’s all your fault.
 
Gut check - where are we? You?
 
In my years here I've noticed that in the early years everyone was fast to diagnose their ex as BPD - so much better than just a selfish jerk.
 
As the world learned more about mental health over the years and how to deal with it, the Internet has escalated from "selfish jerk" ---> BPD (2000+)  ---> Full Blown BPD (2005) ---->  BPD/NPD (2010) ----> BPD/NPD/ASPD (2013) ---->  Psychopath/Sociopath (2015).
 
As we learn more about mental health, it seem the amateur diagnosis" are evolving to the latest "the more hopeless" term as time goes on.  The stories are the same here - if anything, less egregious - but the average diagnosis on the board grows more hopeless.

1. Are we making the diagnosis based on how hurt our feeling are, or based on the psychology of our ex?
 
2. Do some of us actually find comfort in being a victim?  Why?  
 
3. Are we taking something good - a very useful tool - and turning it into something not so useful? Instead of focusing on tools for dealing with difficult people and how to make better life decisions, we focus on the pathology of others.

4. Is excessive labeling helping those that do it?  Is it a crutch?

[Invictus01]

If you ask me - BPD/NPD/sociopaths, doesn't really matter to a non. In the end, it is essentially the same thing. Of course, it is much easier to think of a personality disorder as "Aaaaaawwwww, he/she was so emotionally abused as a child that he/she just has this crazy fear of abandonment, so he/she runs first whether it is justified or not" than "Holy hell, he/she was so emotionally abused as a child that he/she is completely dead inside, doesn't feel anything for anybody, there is no difference for him/her between a garden hose and a human being". Does it really matter what shade of PD it is, if in the end you will be screwed over by that individual in some shape or form? Nope, doesn't matter at all.

[Turkish]

I found this in the reply column at the end of the article:

The biggest problem with becoming obsessed with the label “narcissist” is this: it distracts us from more immediate dangers. Countless readers ask me if there is hope for their abusive boyfriend or girlfriend, whom they fear might be a “narcissist.” My response is always the same: Narcissism is not the problem, it is the abuse. Whether alcoholism, chronic pain, loneliness or severe narcissism causes the abuse should not be our concern. Some lines should not be crossed no matter what drives people over them. Our priority is to protecting ourselves.

That sounds like it comes down to boundaries.

[Madison66]

Great thread! I found this site when I did a search of really confusing and irrational behaviors/traits exhibited by my ex gf. The labels demonstrated to me that something was very, very wrong in the r/s. While not diagnosing my ex gf, I had two T's strongly advise me that nothing would change and to leave the r/s. If nothing else, the labels motivated me to seek out a T to help me cope. What came out of it was a self exploration that had nothing to do with "her". After leaving the r/s, I found myself in a short r/s with another NPD woman (she confirmed she had been diagnosed after the fact). Shoot, I ignored red flags and then a couple months in witnessed some things that made the exit fast and easy! More importantly, I keyed into some r/s patterns that I am only responsible for. I'm now in a healthy, reciprocating love r/s and come back to this site to keep up the awareness of where I once was.

I totally accept that I often used the PD label as a crutch for the last half of the r/s! It was an easy way for me to not have to look inward and deal my own stuff. Again, it was thru T and one particular T that pushed me to look at what I was doing and not focus on "her". In the end, I chuckle when I say it but it's true - I needed this entire journey, good and bad, to shake me to heal grow.

[Dunder]

In the short time I've been visiting this message board I have noticed in myself and in others a craving for a positive diagnosis of BPD. At times, this strong need to label my EX's condition obscured the larger question at hand which was whether our relationship was a healthy one. Ultimately the label that comes with a diagnosis became irrelevant because the presence or absence of a diagnosis wouldn't change the reality of our relationship and the need for me to detach from my partner. Nevertheless, my therapist strongly suspects BPD, and I have been able to compare the behavior of a diagnosed sibling in my family with that of my Ex. I'm positive that my EX does in fact have this particular personality disorder, and this knowledge has been very helpful in guiding the healing process. I am very grateful that this site exists.

[zundertowz]

I actually read this article today www.the-toast.net/2013/12/04/your-ex-might-not-have-a-personality-disorder/  All I know is that when your ex threatens to have you falsely arrested on abuse charges, Smears your name to everyone you know, and verbally and psychically abuses you... .there"s more going on then them being A-holes.

[Achaya]

What has been most helpful to me in my recovery work with my family and with my ex partners is to strive for objectivity in my view of who these people are/were. When I can see that my ex has enacted the same pattern with people before me, it helps me be more objective about who she is. Many of us from abusive families were subjected to confusion tactics designed to deflect blame from the abusers. We are prone to thinking that our perceptions of our partners or our reactions to abuse may be "just us," i.e., invalid, even a sign of our own mean spirits (How could you say that about him? He loves you). I know that in my case, I fear that my presentation of my side of a relationship to a third party might not represent my partner "fairly." When I recognize her behavior in a diagnostic description I feel more like this is a pattern other people have seen many times, like the flu. It helps me separate myself from it. I find the same to be true about my own diagnoses---it helps to know this is not "me" exactly, but more like the scars people have who have been physically beaten.

It also helps to know that the diagnoses I am so, so willing to take on in my relationship, with my sword drawn ready for the demons, are diagnoses that cause mental health professionals to back off in fear or despair. There lies the reason why I couldn't fix my family or my exes---their problems aren't very amenable to fixing, even with a great expenditure of professional resources. It helps me be more objective about my probabilities of success when I charge into the battle.

There will always be people who embrace a victim identity, just as there will always be people who get addicted to the narcotics their doctors prescribe for relief of pain. They are not the majority.

[Invictus01]

www.the-toast.net/2013/12/04/your-ex-might-not-have-a-personality-disorder/  

I have read that article before and let me say this. If a person doesn't have very very good reasons to believe that his/her ex might have been off, yet still going down that path just to make him/herself feel better, that is really a crappy thing to do. However, the author seems to over simply the whole thing to the max. I think most people who end up going down that path do so because the experience just was so bizarre and surreal, they are trying to find answers. Personally, never in my life after a break up I thought I was going insane. Never I had suicidal thoughts. Never I thought about ordering a hit on her. Never it felt like I just lost a half of me, like the person I was with just died in a car wreck. Never I had people suggest that I might want to go visit a shrink because nobody had any idea what was going on with me. The whole thing was on a such absurdly different level, I don't even know how to describe it. If the author of the article suggested that I somehow went down the personality disorder path because I wanted to make myself feel better about things, I'd be deeply insulted.

[fromheeltoheal]

No one can do the work for you, you have to want it and do it yourself.  Another truth is that once the student is ready the teacher will appear; we need to be hungry.  If I'd found this site when I was in the relationship I most likely would have thought it was all crap and wouldn't have dived in; it wasn't until I was in a lot of pain that I became teachable.

So what we can do is keep talking, those who want to listen will, and those who need more 'experience' first might pick up a tidbit or two that will help.  Victimhood is a comfortable place, it shows up everywhere in the world, since taking responsibility for things is a lot more work and takes a lot more growth.

[bunnyrabit]

It's probably me but I'm having hard time seeing the correlation between over-diagnosing and being in perpetual victimhood... .

I'm well aware that I've been on these boards way longer than I should have. Even though I don't post much anymore, here I am 3 years later recovering from yet another recycle... .I'm actually that guy that made bad dating choices in between recycling with his ex. So I guess you could say I didn't learn my lesson well or heal well.

But over-diagnosing? I don't think I do that. My ex's behavior was way out of the realm of that of the selfish jerk but fit that of a textbook BPD, so what else can I say... .? And frankly I believe that finding out about her illness is what lead me to my first recycle as my anger towards had turned into compassion. As a result I forgave her way too easily because she couldn't help it, she's sick, poor thing... .and you don't just bail on sick people... .

The next recycle was just plain stupidity from my part, I have no qualms admitting that. Other than that I was never interested in any further diagnosis, I never even asked her psychiatrists.

So my lack of healing wasn't a result of over-diagnosing, I don't think and I don't really see how calling her an NPD/psychopath or whatever would have changed anything. It is kind of annoying when people do over-diagnose, and it's definitely becoming a trend on the internet. But how exactly does it hinder us in our growth or keep us in eternal victimhood, could you perhaps shed some light on that Skip?

[fromheeltoheal]

But over-diagnosing? I don't think I do that. My ex's behavior was way out of the realm of that of the selfish jerk but fit that of a textbook BPD, so what else can I say... .? And frankly I believe that finding out about her illness is what lead me to my first recycle as my anger towards had turned into compassion. As a result I forgave her way too easily because she couldn't help it, she's sick, poor thing... .and you don't just bail on sick people... .

Yes, once we learn about the disorder and it's challenges it's easy and appropriate to have some compassion for our exes.  And also, if we don't take care of ourselves first we have nothing to give; selfishness gets a bad rap, but it's mandatory.  Plus, we can't 'fix' someone with a personality disorder, and although they are not responsible for having it, they are still responsible for their behaviors, and giving them a free pass is enabling.

But how exactly does it hinder us in our growth or keep us in eternal victimhood, could you perhaps shed some light on that Skip?

Because focusing on them and the evil 'thing' they have, the thing with the clinical name that caused them to abuse us, relieves us of the responsibility of looking at our part, which is what victims do.  Granted some people are victimized and had no part in it, like someone shot in a random drive-by shooting for example, but we always had a part in these relationships and were there as volunteers.

[myself]

You can own up to your part and still be a victim.

There are so many layers to these relationships... .

It's black and white thinking to say it's just one or the other.

[Skip]

   My question is specifically about "over diagnosing".

For example, a psychologist suggested my ex was BPD.  But after months of reading about it and knowing what information he based he "diagnosis" on (little), I realized that she was most likely not clinically BPD. She had traits.

This is true for many members here.  Not all members (this is a general discussion about those that knowingly or carelessly "over" diagnose).

Getting an accurate read (or reasonably accurate read) on the ex is critical to understanding what was normal guy/girl conflict, and what was pathology (theirs/ours).

So what happens to the healing process when someone knowingly or carelessly elevates the persons condition to Full Blown BPD, or BPD/NPD, or psychopath, or vampire, or monster?  We start seeing comments like nothing I could do (I was helpless), and nothing I can learn (except stay away monsters - anyone exhiting anything unfavorable)

How can we be self-aware if we create a distorted environment?

[peacefulmind]

How can we be self-aware if we create a distorted environment?

This is a good point.

I, myself, has found it a huge relief to know that I am not the only one who has experienced the dreaded silent treatment, I am not the only one who has been strung along for several months where love basically did not exist anymore, and I am not the only one who feels like my soul has been ripped to pieces. The way I see it, the self-awareness is a part of processing, it is a part of realising what the relationship in fact was, and that we all play a role either as co-dependent or a simple push-over that can be manipulated with. The processing should (hopefully) bring us much deeper into our own identities so we can accept the fact that it always takes two to tango. However, victimising ourselves in such situations is a necessary trait that I think is inherent, and it is inevitable, given the sudden change in relationship dynamics from something you felt was perfect, to the worst nightmare.

We can only relate so much to the characteristics of BPD, but what fits fits. It may be overexaggerated in some cases, but it is positive that a lot of people ask "hey, was this BPD?". This shows that the key to understanding what went wrong, and to understand one's own role in the demise, is there. Whether people accept that or not is really their own decision. Returning members may not have accepted it, other members who only drops in every once in a while to greet and offer guidance may have. I think that's one of the strengths about this board, the fact that it is entirely up to yourself what you get out of it. I have used the phrase "nothing to be done, it was inevitable", but this is not far away from the truth. That doesn't mean that I don't accept the gruelling truth that I had my own part in both enabling and triggering it. I just believe that adults should be responsible for their own actions, disorder or not.

I agree that it is important that self-reflection attains a very centered role in the detachment process (The five stages of detachment doesn't mention self-reflection and how to include your own role in the now ended relationship). I think this is a very good discussion and I am happy you decided to take it up with the members on this board.

Thank you.

[Achaya]

Regarding overdiagnosing I read that mental health professionals themselves are inclined to use "borderline" as an insult as well as a diagnosis. Dr. John Briere, who is a psychologist and trauma specialist, says in one of his books (I can look it up if anyone wants) that psychotherapists even refer to colleagues they don't like as "borderline." By the way, anyone who wants to read a compassionate, nonjudgmental, insightful presentation on BPD should check out his writing and workshops.

[Skip]

Regarding overdiagnosing I read that mental health professionals themselves are inclined to use "borderline" as an insult as well as a diagnosis.

The professional community clearly has not caught up on this one.  How many therapists will flippantly label a third party as borderline, but would not diagnose that person if they presented to them as a patient? Sadly, lots. 

[fromheeltoheal]

Regarding overdiagnosing I read that mental health professionals themselves are inclined to use "borderline" as an insult as well as a diagnosis.

The professional community clearly has not caught up on this one.  How many therapists will flippantly label a third party as borderline, but would not diagnose that person if they presented to them as a patient? Sadly, lots. 

I think it's an offshoot of where 'borderline' came from, the line between neurotic and psychotic, a dumping ground to put patients who didn't fit elsewhere.

[Turkish]

My mom's not a mental health professional, but she's a Registered Nurse. She loves "diagnosing" difficult people as Borderlines. Given that she's BPD, I wonder how much is projection given her often inability to deal with other difficult people. It could also be that over the years that she's hung around a lot of unhealthy people as well.

[Bensonshays]

Out of curiosity,  are there any mental health experts who post here? The moderators seem really well informed; did you guys just do a lot of homework? 

[Missy94]

Skip - isn't it part of the cycle of grief? For those who are uninitiated google at will! I've studied this a lot in my work and I can say from my experience that searching for meaning/explanation IS a healthy reaction and part of a larger process... .of course no one should be labelling in a negative fashion but again part of the grieving process is anger... .and so we do sometimes need to let off steam here - isn't that what the boards are partly for? Expressing and seeking support in our LOSS?

Labels particular help some patients come to terms with their problems. Less isolating to know there's a name for it and other people have it too. They can help friends, family and loved ones understand something that can be confusing and scary also then they can better support the sufferer? Or make decisions about how they want or if they want to be in that particular relationship.

On a personal note my experience of my ex is that he has many if not all of the symptoms of BPD. His behaviours were so alien to me I sought to understand them. It's just who I am. I don't believe in 'over diagnosing' I am not a medical or psychiatric consultant and I don't like pop psychology but asking the question didn't hurt. It helped with the genuine feelings of fear I was having (again part of the cycle of grief). When we finished I found it really helpful to have information from this site to explain and support my experience. I have by no means not questioned why I was so into this man and what is behind my own attachment issues and cycles of behaviour/personality traits and our particular codependancy and communication problems.

Seeking meaning and searching for answers is simply part of our emotional integrity too... .

[Skip]

Reminder:

  My question is specifically about "over diagnosing".

[Turkish]

Reminder:

  My question is specifically about "over diagnosing".

In that case, what my T said: "not everything needs to be pathologized." I think he was saying not to attribute every little behavior to BPD, Dx'd or not.

[enlighten me]

I think we overswing in both directions. From doubting there was anything wrong to believing they may be sociopaths.

[Madison66]

I think the "self awareness" comment is really valid when discussing this subject.  I think I posted it earlier, but whether you over diagnose your partner or ex or you use the diagnosis as a crutch to blame everything bad in the r/s on them, then you risk not looking inward and dealing with our own stuff.  

In a very loose comparison on diagnosis' and labels, my D was diagnosed with an eating disorder a couple years ago.  She used to get pissed when someone would label her with having an eating disorder, which she clearly did have.  My point to her was that the diagnosis or label brought with it a wealth of treatments, information, support for the person with the disorder and for the family members.  It all helped my D become healthy again and I learned how I could support her and be a better dad.  Guess what?  Eating disorders are a form of a mental illness and are often on a spectrum.  Sound familiar.

In the same respect, when my ex gf and I sought out a T for couples counseling and the T met individually with my ex gf, she came back to me and advised me to leave the r/s unless I was prepared to deal with the same emotional dysregulation, chaos and abuse I was seeing after just one year.  She used the words "exhibited strong traits of BPD and NPD", so I went searching for information and that helped land me here.  When I would question why I was putting up with all the crap, I also found information on co-dependency and clearly had to state that is what I brought to the party in bad way.  

Listen, when any of us leaves a r/s with a person w/PD or someone we just were not compatible with we are simply left with ourselves.  Blame, turn them black, diagnose, over-diagnose?  :)oesn't matter!  The dynamic didn't work for us.  Again, we are only left with ourselves and with the ultimate power to make changes in our lives.  The r/s didn't work for me and now I have to do the work to truly understand who I am and what I want.  That's it... .   

[Pou]

How can we be self-aware if we create a distorted environment?

Skip, interesting comment.  I think one has to be a fool trying play a victim role in a NPD / BPD situation.  That would be just purely a waste of time.  Perhaps, if one does it, then this person may have some type of mental illness.  I mean... .who wants to be in a unhealthy relationship and stay?  I certainly don't.  My situation is unfortunate and I have lots to blame for living in a denial and didn't get out early ... .I didn't get out early because I refused to admit that my wife has PD.  So I keep on working on our relationship and tried everything ... .that including having 3 kids together.  After I exhausted all good efforts, bending backwards and took it like a champ, I still get the NPD to the max treatments from my wife.  So, then I finally got it ... .after years of backstabbing, spreading false rumors about me, making false police report, and threaten me to control me and my children ... .you know, I finally got it.  If anything, I am guilty of being "under diagnosing" my NPD wife and guilty of being "stupid" and "ignorant" about there is such thing as PD.  And until this day, I don't believe anyone who hasn't experience it would believe my story ... .so I don't tell ... .and I carry this baggage with me ... .all day long.  Only on this board that I find comfort in sharing my problems.  But to be fair, I have come across a few posts here ... .that I suspect that are the PDs that are posting and projecting.  After reading all about them, I start to pick up clues.  So my view is that one has to be a fool or a PD to be playing the victim here ... .from what I can tell and from the posts that I have read on this board, I would guess less than 5% is playing victim.  I also don't see (in general) that people on this forum are too eager to proclaim their love ones have PD without substance.   If I see anything like that, I probably would have left this forum long ago.  Just my 2Cents.  

[Bensonshays]

I think we overswing in both directions. From doubting there was anything wrong to believing they may be sociopaths.

I think that's the key. The "It was her fault or my fault" mentality is the wrong approach to assessing a relationship gone bad. I was guilty of it until I started posting here. That being said, falling head over heals for someone after one date and desperately seeking attention from a partner, to name two examples everyone here is probably familiar with, is erratic and unhealthy behavior. After breaking up with someone who exhibits those behaviors, or worse, it's very reasonable to want to find their source. A lot of people just overshoot their mark by putting it down to mental illness right away and closing the case. 

[blissful_camper]

Many who find their way here are in a state of shock when they land on the forum.  I think that excessive labeling may be a natural response for some members to traumatic events experienced. As one weaves their way through understanding those experiences, and doing inner work, the need to label at all may be alleviated as healing progresses. So, I don't think it's necessarily hurtful, but at a certain point it's helpful to redirect the focus away from the former other, to oneself.

[once removed]

Reminder:

 My question is specifically about "over diagnosing".

In that case, what my T said: "not everything needs to be pathologized." I think he was saying not to attribute every little behavior to BPD, Dx'd or not.

i have read, on this forum for example, a thread about BPD and sleeping disorders. while i can reasonably see some overlap, a sleeping disorder has absolutely zero to do with diagnostic criteria. i have a sleeping disorder and i am not BPD. it gets to the point that there are threads on "did your BPDex yawn weird?". that the diagnosis or more, becomes an obsession. ive seen a thread about a persons BPDex being "diagnosed with everything in the dsm" which ill just throw out there, seems unlikely.

i will admit that things like the fact that my ex did some crazy stuff in her sleep made me feel more connected to this forum and others. it did nothing in terms of helping me heal, understanding borderline personality disorder, or seeing my role in the relationship. it was a bit of validation; though toward what, im not sure.

while my healing went through lots of phases, serious healing began when i wasnt in need of diagnosis, or questioning my exes every move. im not saying a diagnosis doesnt help give you an idea of what youve been through, or lay out your path to healing; it does, and it did for me. "BPD" meant okay, it wasnt all my fault, this is traumatic stuff. validation was important, and if the relationship, pd or not, had driven me to see a therapist, that therapist would have validated my experience. what im partly illustrating is that "BPD" was enough for me, at the time. im also illustrating that whatever the diagnosis, clearly all of us that end up here have been through traumatic stuff. the diagnosis doesnt heal us whether its aspd, sociopath, psychopath, narcissist, sociopath, jerk. i reached a point at which i did not care, saw the relationship for what it was, and healed accordingly. its not overdiagnosis that inherently gets a person stuck, its over focus on any given diagnosis. at the same time, we should also understand that overdiagnosing may in and of itself  be a passing phase.

[enlighten me]

I personally believe that knowing or suspecting a pd helps us to come to terms with what we have experienced and our part in it.

I think the problem comes by not letting go of the past and moving on. This falls into two camps.

One the obsessive who cannot come to terms with what happened and continues to find a comfortable answer to what happened.

Secondly those of us still tied to our exs through our children and who have to still deal with their behaviour. By knowing about BPD we can understand a lot of their behaviour but every know and again they do something that we cant explain with what weve learned. This uncertainty leads me to seek answers and sometimes the only behaviour that matches is ASPD. Im not saying she is ASPD. Im sure we all have done something that fits neatly into a criteria for a pd. Its the uncertainty that drives us to cover all options.

[Skip]

I think we overswing in both directions. From doubting there was anything wrong to believing they may be sociopaths.

One the obsessive who cannot come to terms with what happened and continues to find a comfortable answer to what happened.

Secondly those of us still tied to our exs through our children and who have to still deal with their behaviour. By knowing about BPD we can understand a lot of their behaviour but every know and again they do something that we cant explain with what weve learned. This uncertainty leads me to seek answers and sometimes the only behaviour that matches is ASPD. Im not saying she is ASPD. Im sure we all have done something that fits neatly into a criteria for a pd. Its the uncertainty that drives us to cover all options.

I guess I'll test this question with you, enlighten me. You have been her almost a year and over 1,400 posts before considering ASPD just recently.

1. Are you overswinging now?

2. Does this fit?   ASPD, or any PD is generally not about a recent unexplained behavior - its about a pervasive lifetime pattern of that behavior. In the case of ASPD, there needs to be, in addition, evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15 years.

3. Do these fit (below)?

• failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;

• irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;

• reckless disregard for safety of self or others;

.
9% of people with BPD have co-morbid ASPD.  In recent months we suddenly have far more than 9% of members discussing this.  In many (not all) cases, I'm not seeing ASPD symptoms in the members post history description of the ex.

  I ringing a warning. Are we (as a group) getting caught up in the recent growth of websites calling exs "sociopaths"?  :)o we need to be mindful of this and a bit more centering of others that are "over-reaching"?