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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: can you do or say anything a BPD may perceive as positive during devaluation?  (Read 933 times)
blissful_camper
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« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2015, 09:28:28 PM »

In my experience exBPD was creating conflict/chaos because that was the environment that was most comfortable to him.  Often he seemed determined to achieve conflict/chaos.  Implementing SET was ineffective when those were his goals.  The longer I utilized SET the more he devalued me.  He verbally abused, abused, and abused more as though he was wanted to cultivate a response from me that would match the one he envisioned in his mind.  He seemed to crave negative reinforcement.  

That is exactly what my ex Bpd does ! No matter how much I try to validate what she is saying , it angers her further , it's as if she says things that are so untrue on purpose , so I argue !

My calm helpful approach seems to make her throw more at me .

Is this typical Bpd behaviour ?

I don't know if it's typical.  It's possible that the desire to cultivate a negative response stems from wanting proof to validate the pwBPD's feelings about you.  Maybe an easy way to describe it is fault-finding.  It might go something like provoke, provoke, and provoke more until the other reacts negatively and proof is obtained.  

I think that you do the best that you can using SET and if that is ineffective then it may be time to give that person space.  

[ Analogy: When a horse is in full-on panic mode you let go of that horse's lead so that the horse can safely flee.  Pulling back or struggling with the horse will only make the horse's panic worsen.  The same applies to aggressive horses or ones turning their behind at you. (Drop your end of the rope)]

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« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2015, 09:54:38 PM »

In my experience exBPD was creating conflict/chaos because that was the environment that was most comfortable to him.  Often he seemed determined to achieve conflict/chaos.  Implementing SET was ineffective when those were his goals.  The longer I utilized SET the more he devalued me.  He verbally abused, abused, and abused more as though he was wanted to cultivate a response from me that would match the one he envisioned in his mind.  He seemed to crave negative reinforcement.  

That is exactly what my ex Bpd does ! No matter how much I try to validate what she is saying , it angers her further , it's as if she says things that are so untrue on purpose , so I argue !

My calm helpful approach seems to make her throw more at me .

Is this typical Bpd behaviour ?

I don't know if it's typical.  It's possible that the desire to cultivate a negative response stems from wanting proof to validate the pwBPD's feelings about you.  Maybe an easy way to describe it is fault-finding.  It might go something like provoke, provoke, and provoke more until the other reacts negatively and proof is obtained.  

I think that you do the best that you can using SET and if that is ineffective then it may be time to give that person space.  

[ Analogy: When a horse is in full-on panic mode you let go of that horse's lead so that the horse can safely flee.  Pulling back or struggling with the horse will only make the horse's panic worsen.  The same applies to aggressive horses or ones turning their behind at you. (Drop your end of the rope)]

I agree!  Then... .sometimes if proof could not be obtained, he'd resort to a delusion.  He'd twist some reality until it was no longer truth... .but a made up story of an event.
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blissful_camper
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« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2015, 10:03:53 PM »

I think that we begin to set ourselves free when we realize that pwBPD look like us, smell like us, and walk like us but are not like us at all.  They are utterly different. Every assumption you would naturally make about a person's nature will get you in trouble when you're dealing with a pwBPD.  They're heartless, or at least lack a heart in the way that is relevant in positive human relationships. 

What sets us free is when we reach a place of acceptance, forgiveness, and compassion for ourselves and our significant other.  
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blissful_camper
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« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2015, 10:10:29 PM »

In my experience exBPD was creating conflict/chaos because that was the environment that was most comfortable to him.  Often he seemed determined to achieve conflict/chaos.  Implementing SET was ineffective when those were his goals.  The longer I utilized SET the more he devalued me.  He verbally abused, abused, and abused more as though he was wanted to cultivate a response from me that would match the one he envisioned in his mind.  He seemed to crave negative reinforcement.  

That is exactly what my ex Bpd does ! No matter how much I try to validate what she is saying , it angers her further , it's as if she says things that are so untrue on purpose , so I argue !

My calm helpful approach seems to make her throw more at me .

Is this typical Bpd behaviour ?

I don't know if it's typical.  It's possible that the desire to cultivate a negative response stems from wanting proof to validate the pwBPD's feelings about you.  Maybe an easy way to describe it is fault-finding.  It might go something like provoke, provoke, and provoke more until the other reacts negatively and proof is obtained.  

I think that you do the best that you can using SET and if that is ineffective then it may be time to give that person space.  

[ Analogy: When a horse is in full-on panic mode you let go of that horse's lead so that the horse can safely flee.  Pulling back or struggling with the horse will only make the horse's panic worsen.  The same applies to aggressive horses or ones turning their behind at you. (Drop your end of the rope)]

I agree!  Then... .sometimes if proof could not be obtained, he'd resort to a delusion.  He'd twist some reality until it was no longer truth... .but a made up story of an event.

I experienced that too.  I found those events particularly saddening.   There's not much that can be done under those circumstances except to use SET the best that you can.  Then give space if stability/harmony isn't restored. 
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« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2015, 10:16:02 PM »

I am just trying to wrap my head around all of this .

With my ex who has extreme symptoms of Bpd , we have been apart for two weeks , whatever I say even though I try to validate what she's saying or asking , she twists and replies back denying she's said or done something . Me remaining calm seems to make her more annoyed ! I find it so hard validating things she believes are so real like ' I don't love her as much as she loves me '

I try saying that I understand she feels that way , but I did love her so much '

Can you actually say anything right to them at all ?

I can see the mistake I made now , I did not even think of that ! I've disagreed with what she has said haven't I !

My goodness I find this so very difficult


Laugh out loud (click to insert in post), yea,

I think the way it works is... .

Feelings = facts (HER feelings, NOT yours!)

So essentially, you are validating that it is ok and normal to feel whatever it is that she is feeling.  (just be sure you know what the feeling is!)


You are pretty much just finding a way to say every time that she has an uncomfortable feeling: 

Feeling = normal and ok

I think often they are so disturbed by their own feeling, that it triggers even MORE feeling... .and then the whole mess snowballs into a warp vortex of unleashing feeling that frightens themselves.  So if you can early on find a way to say that feeling is ok,  I accept and am comfortable with you feeling (not someone I want to reject for feeling) then this helps them to tolerate the experience and you may actually soothe them before they frighten themselves.  It seems like you have to be a role model for managing uncomfortable feelings!  (but HERS!)

The tricky part is that if you accidentally hear incorrectly... .it can backfire.  If she is sad and you are letting her know that feeling angry is ok and you love her... .she will be pissed and react emotional to being heard wrong.

Anything else... .pretty much is invalidating.  Actual facts... .are invalidating... .as they are irrelevant to her "facts" which is what she is feeling, unless of course you are providing actual facts to relate and prove her "facts" to be worthwhile.

Ok... .I'm dizzy!

NM... .I can not say this concisly!  My head is spinning! LOL!

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« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2015, 12:37:30 AM »

When feelings equal facts it can be rough sledding when those feelings flip flop, rapidly changing direction.  I commend those who try to make it work.  I couldn't do it.
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disillusionedandsore
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« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2015, 07:48:03 AM »

It's a no win I think.  I couldn't do it. It makes me feel incredible sad and upset because I like harmony and resolution and I hurt when he hurt... .It is truly a disgusting disorder. 
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« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2015, 10:10:13 AM »

I am just trying to wrap my head around all of this .

With my ex who has extreme symptoms of Bpd , we have been apart for two weeks , whatever I say even though I try to validate what she's saying or asking , she twists and replies back denying she's said or done something . Me remaining calm seems to make her more annoyed ! I find it so hard validating things she believes are so real like ' I don't love her as much as she loves me '

I try saying that I understand she feels that way , but I did love her so much '

Can you actually say anything right to them at all ?

I can see the mistake I made now , I did not even think of that ! I've disagreed with what she has said haven't I !

My goodness I find this so very difficult


Laugh out loud (click to insert in post), yea,

I think the way it works is... .

Feelings = facts (HER feelings, NOT yours!)

So essentially, you are validating that it is ok and normal to feel whatever it is that she is feeling.  (just be sure you know what the feeling is!)


You are pretty much just finding a way to say every time that she has an uncomfortable feeling: 

Feeling = normal and ok

I think often they are so disturbed by their own feeling, that it triggers even MORE feeling... .and then the whole mess snowballs into a warp vortex of unleashing feeling that frightens themselves.  So if you can early on find a way to say that feeling is ok,  I accept and am comfortable with you feeling (not someone I want to reject for feeling) then this helps them to tolerate the experience and you may actually soothe them before they frighten themselves.  It seems like you have to be a role model for managing uncomfortable feelings!  (but HERS!)

The tricky part is that if you accidentally hear incorrectly... .it can backfire.  If she is sad and you are letting her know that feeling angry is ok and you love her... .she will be pissed and react emotional to being heard wrong.

Anything else... .pretty much is invalidating.  Actual facts... .are invalidating... .as they are irrelevant to her "facts" which is what she is feeling, unless of course you are providing actual facts to relate and prove her "facts" to be worthwhile.

Ok... .I'm dizzy!

NM... .I can not say this concisly!  My head is spinning! LOL!

Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) my head has just fallen off ! Lol Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) !

Ok so I'm feeling I have to be a professor of some description to figure this out .

Is no contact just an easier option ? What is the point in treading on these very fragile eggshells , to try and validate untruths ? 

My own sanity has fallen out of my head , and it is so soul destroying to agree that these delusions are real !

Ignoring her I think is cruel , but does my sanity equate to anything ? Am I being a rescuer and fuelling her fire ! ?

The thought of her struggling is not nice , but I'm at the point where I can't do wrong for right !

I have not had contact with her since Thursday morning , where she was asking if she walks away like I have does that make her love BS? She said if it was real love I wouldn't walk away .

Asking me if she gets professional help to sort her head , who will sort her heart ? She said do I get some woman to sort it ?

I responded with " I don't know about we sort the heart bit , I'm in the dark "

I got no response .

The only thing of the tiniest Connection left is her on my game centre . This sounds silly but I'm getting in a panic about deleting her from it as she will deem this as me reacting and nudging her emotions .

Do I just leave her on there ?

Do you find you slowly begin to let go for your own sakes ?

I'm at that point but don't want to rattle her cage !


I've just found my head Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) !

Thanks again for all your help .

X
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« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2015, 10:31:32 AM »

When feelings equal facts it can be rough sledding when those feelings flip flop, rapidly changing direction.  I commend those who try to make it work.  I couldn't do it.

I'm seeing your point very clearly .  I don't think I can do this any more .

I've just got to leave it and re build myself and recover from four years of complete s***!

I can't help someone who can't help themselves .

Did you let go in the end ?
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« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2015, 12:48:10 PM »

When feelings equal facts it can be rough sledding when those feelings flip flop, rapidly changing direction.  I commend those who try to make it work.  I couldn't do it.

I'm seeing your point very clearly .  I don't think I can do this any more .

I've just got to leave it and re build myself and recover from four years of complete s***!

I can't help someone who can't help themselves .

Did you let go in the end ?

It's okay to take time for yourself to reflect on your own needs and direction. 

Further down the road you may feel that you gained valuable insight and life-skills from your experience that will serve you well.  Yes, you did the best that you could.  Now it's up to your significant other to help themselves. 

Yes, I let go in the end.  I didn't want to be the face of his shame and pain anymore.  I didn't want to play a role in his disorder.  For me, I felt that it was healthier for him (and me) to remove myself from the dynamic the disorder sadly cultivated.  I'm two years out this summer.  The journey was painful but well worth it.   
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« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2015, 02:20:40 PM »

Excerpt
I felt that it was healthier for him (and me) to remove myself from the dynamic the disorder sadly cultivated.  I'm two years out this summer.  The journey was painful but well worth it.   

Same here.  The dynamic was unhealthy all around, and finally I had to throw in the towel.  Healthier for our kids not to have parents in constant conflict.  Healthier for me to live my life w/o walking on eggshells and being a lightening rod for BPDxW's rage.  Healthier for my Ex to have the person who frequently triggered her (me) out of the picture (Hard to say what is healthier for her?).

I'm out four & half years.  Rough ride, as BC notes, but better than the alternative.

LuckyJim
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« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2015, 04:53:10 PM »

Not only do I think it is impossible for the non to do anything correct in the eyes of the borderline during devaluation, you might find yourself in a situation where you are castigated for doing the very thing she had in the past asked you to do.

So, for example, I would be told that it was essential to her happiness that when she has a problem or difficulty, that I refrain from trying to help her or solve the problem with her, but instead merely empathize with "Oh, that's so crazy."  Then, while she is devaluing me and the relationship, I would be admonished for responding to her problems with "Oh, that's so crazy" INSTEAD OF trying to solve the problem for her.  This is a real example.  I could go on with the "Why are you doing the terrible things that I've asked you to do?" examples but I won't.  

I think it's important to keep in mind that these people (I'm sorry if it sounds like I am objectifying them) are just two steps away from schizophrenics in terms of their craziness.  I'm comfortable using the term.  My T (an esteemed, widely published, and highly respected person in the profession) is comfortable using the term, and drilled that reality into me for a month before I saw he is right.  

I think that we begin to set ourselves free when we realize that pwBPD look like us, smell like us, and walk like us but are not like us at all.  They are utterly different. Every assumption you would naturally make about a person's nature will get you in trouble when you're dealing with a pwBPD.  They're heartless, or at least lack a heart in the way that is relevant in positive human relationships.  

Thank you for this 
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« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2015, 01:04:22 PM »

Not only do I think it is impossible for the non to do anything correct in the eyes of the borderline during devaluation, you might find yourself in a situation where you are castigated for doing the very thing she had in the past asked you to do.

So, for example, I would be told that it was essential to her happiness that when she has a problem or difficulty, that I refrain from trying to help her or solve the problem with her, but instead merely empathize with "Oh, that's so crazy."  Then, while she is devaluing me and the relationship, I would be admonished for responding to her problems with "Oh, that's so crazy" INSTEAD OF trying to solve the problem for her.  This is a real example.  I could go on with the "Why are you doing the terrible things that I've asked you to do?" examples but I won't.  

I think it's important to keep in mind that these people (I'm sorry if it sounds like I am objectifying them) are just two steps away from schizophrenics in terms of their craziness.  I'm comfortable using the term.  My T (an esteemed, widely published, and highly respected person in the profession) is comfortable using the term, and drilled that reality into me for a month before I saw he is right.  

I think that we begin to set ourselves free when we realize that pwBPD look like us, smell like us, and walk like us but are not like us at all.  They are utterly different. Every assumption you would naturally make about a person's nature will get you in trouble when you're dealing with a pwBPD.  They're heartless, or at least lack a heart in the way that is relevant in positive human relationships.  

Thank you for this 

If it helps you see things differently, in a healthy and helpful way, then I am happy.  My T has been very helpful to me, asking me for descriptions of interactions between myself and my ex (he is a cognitive behavioral therapist) and I have come to see that what he sought to "correct" or "improve" in me is my wrong belief that all of the behavior that I was subjected to could be rationalized, explained or tolerated.  He compared me to a woman who is physically abused by her husband or boyfriend, telling me that the behavior is somewhat different but the dynamic was identical.  It took a very long time to accept this.  One of the best things he told me is that explaining, justifying or even trying to understand another's transgressive behavior is the worst thing we can do.  See the behavior for what it is, accept that it is real, believe it, and move on and away.  Behavior is all that matters.  People are basically who they are.  We don't really change.
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« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2015, 01:06:20 PM »

Excerpt
I felt that it was healthier for him (and me) to remove myself from the dynamic the disorder sadly cultivated.  I'm two years out this summer.  The journey was painful but well worth it.   

Same here.  The dynamic was unhealthy all around, and finally I had to throw in the towel.  Healthier for our kids not to have parents in constant conflict.  Healthier for me to live my life w/o walking on eggshells and being a lightening rod for BPDxW's rage.  Healthier for my Ex to have the person who frequently triggered her (me) out of the picture (Hard to say what is healthier for her?).

I'm out four & half years.  Rough ride, as BC notes, but better than the alternative.

LuckyJim

Lucky Jim, I tip my hat to you.  I think that these are some of the hardest things we can do, especially when there are kids involved.
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« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2015, 03:07:15 PM »

One of the best things he told me is that explaining, justifying or even trying to understand another's transgressive behavior is the worst thing we can do.  See the behavior for what it is, accept that it is real, believe it, and move on and away.  Behavior is all that matters.  People are basically who they are.  We don't really change.

I think it is important to understand the behaviors of a pwBPD because it helps to depersonalize the behaviors. It took time and two years later I don't take my exe's behaviors personal ( i.e. devaluation, projections ) and it's not about me. I also think that people don't really change is an over-generalization. Nothing changes without change.
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« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2015, 03:35:54 PM »

One of the best things he told me is that explaining, justifying or even trying to understand another's transgressive behavior is the worst thing we can do.  See the behavior for what it is, accept that it is real, believe it, and move on and away.  Behavior is all that matters.  People are basically who they are.  We don't really change.

I think it is important to understand the behaviors of a pwBPD because it helps to depersonalize the behaviors. It took time and two years later I don't take my exe's behaviors personal ( i.e. devaluation, projections ) and it's not about me. I also think that people don't really change is an over-generalization. Nothing changes without change.

I think that the distinction I should have made is this: We try to understand, and in understanding also tend to excuse.  And in excusing (or ignoring, or justifying), we can remain in bad situations.  I think that we nons are drawn to these people for a certain reason, and it has to do with our own makeup.  I think that we understand the borderline's behavior, or try to, and chalk it up to some terrible event (or events) that befell the borderline, and has made them what they are now, and then we feel sorry for them, and accommodate them more and more.  So, sure... .understanding of all things is great.  But we live with behaviors, and we nons have a hard time drawing the line at bad behavior, and for us, understanding can be a kind of slippery slope that just causes us to stay in a relationship that is harmful for us.  As Octave said in Rules of the Game, "The truly terrible thing about life is that everybody has their reasons."  This takes on special meaning when a non is dealing with a borderline. 

I am certain my view was always "She's an adult.  At some point she's going to realize that this sort of thing is destructive and juvenile and change."  She never did, and I had to divorce her.

This is convoluted stuff, for sure. 
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« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2015, 03:46:37 PM »

I think as long as you know your limitations then knowing the cause of the behaviour can help with detatching. Having read all I have I believe BPD to be genetic and thrrefore not something I can fix as im not a neurosurgeon or geneticist.

Its like trying to fix your car engine if you have no mechanical skills. You just end up wasting time and monet and probably make things worse.
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« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2015, 04:48:26 PM »

One of the best things he told me is that explaining, justifying or even trying to understand another's transgressive behavior is the worst thing we can do.  See the behavior for what it is, accept that it is real, believe it, and move on and away.  Behavior is all that matters.  People are basically who they are.  We don't really change.

I think it is important to understand the behaviors of a pwBPD because it helps to depersonalize the behaviors. It took time and two years later I don't take my exe's behaviors personal ( i.e. devaluation, projections ) and it's not about me. I also think that people don't really change is an over-generalization. Nothing changes without change.

I think that the distinction I should have made is this: We try to understand, and in understanding also tend to excuse.  And in excusing (or ignoring, or justifying), we can remain in bad situations.  I think that we nons are drawn to these people for a certain reason, and it has to do with our own makeup.  I think that we understand the borderline's behavior, or try to, and chalk it up to some terrible event (or events) that befell the borderline, and has made them what they are now, and then we feel sorry for them, and accommodate them more and more.  So, sure... .understanding of all things is great.  But we live with behaviors, and we nons have a hard time drawing the line at bad behavior, and for us, understanding can be a kind of slippery slope that just causes us to stay in a relationship that is harmful for us.  As Octave said in Rules of the Game, "The truly terrible thing about life is that everybody has their reasons."  This takes on special meaning when a non is dealing with a borderline. 

I am certain my view was always "She's an adult.  At some point she's going to realize that this sort of thing is destructive and juvenile and change."  She never did, and I had to divorce her.

This is convoluted stuff, for sure. 

Thank you for this... .

Hearing the words for my experience is very validating to me. Smiling (click to insert in post)

Exactly what happened for me.

I relate to the lesson around here... .I forget which one... .  but it is about how we try to makes logical sense of what is going on... .and somehow... .in doing so... .we shift our expectations slightly... .shift our needs slightly... .  and this continues.
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« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2015, 11:04:34 PM »

One of the best things he told me is that explaining, justifying or even trying to understand another's transgressive behavior is the worst thing we can do.  See the behavior for what it is, accept that it is real, believe it, and move on and away.  Behavior is all that matters.  People are basically who they are.  We don't really change.

I think it is important to understand the behaviors of a pwBPD because it helps to depersonalize the behaviors. It took time and two years later I don't take my exe's behaviors personal ( i.e. devaluation, projections ) and it's not about me. I also think that people don't really change is an over-generalization. Nothing changes without change.

I think that the distinction I should have made is this: We try to understand, and in understanding also tend to excuse.  And in excusing (or ignoring, or justifying), we can remain in bad situations.  I think that we nons are drawn to these people for a certain reason, and it has to do with our own makeup.  I think that we understand the borderline's behavior, or try to, and chalk it up to some terrible event (or events) that befell the borderline, and has made them what they are now, and then we feel sorry for them, and accommodate them more and more.  So, sure... .understanding of all things is great.  But we live with behaviors, and we nons have a hard time drawing the line at bad behavior, and for us, understanding can be a kind of slippery slope that just causes us to stay in a relationship that is harmful for us.  As Octave said in Rules of the Game, "The truly terrible thing about life is that everybody has their reasons."  This takes on special meaning when a non is dealing with a borderline.  

I am certain my view was always "She's an adult.  At some point she's going to realize that this sort of thing is destructive and juvenile and change."  She never did, and I had to divorce her.

This is convoluted stuff, for sure.  

I'm two years out of the r/s this summer and I look back at the experience with gratitude.  I pulled some really important life lessons from my experiences with my ex.  I feel that I was drawn to him because I was ready to do the self-work that I needed to do, work that I had ignored for most of my adult life.  Without him or my experiences with him I may not have turned as deeply inward to examine, explore, and better understand my issues.  (Still a work in progress)

Edit:  My choice to have a relationship with my ex was a destructive one on my part.  It was destructive for me (and him) because being his partner meant that I was playing a role and contributing to his disorder
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« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2015, 11:26:23 PM »

This may seem a little odd, but for some reason this thread helped me to recall a dynamic that is truly bizarre. 

I feel Im generally quite skilled in communication and highly sensitive and empathetic.  During devaluation, I'd have to agree, there is very little that can be done actively to reverse it.  But, upon thinking back... .there were a few times in as many years during devaluation he'd acted in such a disrespectful way I became unglued.  Not myself and really snapped.  Now, I don't think I ever got personal but I would uncharacteristically toss as many choice 4 letter words and vulgarity around and stoop to a very immature level of even telling him I hated him.

In retrospect, a very odd thing happened. When I regressed to his level emotionally... .he seemed to get the picture that I was as serious as a heart attack.  Perhaps all of my calm / adult attempts to reason appeared inauthentic or boring to him based on his history and it was only when I devolved to very basal emotional level (immature) he got it. 

Certainly not advocating this as an a approach because what kind of life it is to relate to someone at such an angry level. Not a life I was willing to live with, but let me tell you, it caused him pause. (again tho, I didn't normally beget anger with anger, that may have worked because it was not my normal reaction... .or it worked because that was what he was accustomed to relating to... .either way, not my cup of tea)
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« Reply #50 on: June 02, 2015, 10:14:26 AM »

Excerpt
Certainly not advocating this as an a approach because what kind of life it is to relate to someone at such an angry level. Not a life I was willing to live with, but let me tell you, it caused him pause. (again tho, I didn't normally beget anger with anger, that may have worked because it was not my normal reaction... .or it worked because that was what he was accustomed to relating to... .either way, not my cup of tea)

I did the same, stooped to my BPDxW's level and unleashed a torrent of vulgar words, which is not my style.  On some level, I suspect this is what my BPDxW desired, so that she could play the victim and point at my bad behavior.  After fighting fire with fire, I switched to detachment.

After detaching, I was no longer willing to share my emotions with my Ex, and it was all over but the shouting in terms of our marriage.

LuckyJim

P.S.  Thanks, goateeki.
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Mike-X
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« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2015, 01:59:35 PM »

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