can you do or say anything a BPD may perceive as positive during devaluation?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I've only just recently have seemed to hit the devaluation phase and its full blown get out of my life

. Some things I could never of imagined her saying to me... .only a month ago she was saying we could be "civil" now she wants me gone gone gone. Is there anything you can say to attempt to switch back perhaps not into a full blown r/s, but at least to not being completely and utterly hated? Trying to explain you don't really have to hate my guts... .we were just incompatible/ bad timing.

[problemsolver]

I've only just recently have seemed to hit the devaluation phase and its full blown get out of my life

. Some things I could never of imagined her saying to me... .only a month ago she was saying we could be "civil" now she wants me gone gone gone. Is there anything you can say to attempt to switch back perhaps not into a full blown r/s, but at least to not being completely and utterly hated? Trying to explain you don't really have to hate my guts... .we were just incompatible/ bad timing.

[lm911]

My еxperience says- no, there is nothing. I have tried almost everything for the past year and it has got only worse. It is up to them to stop the devaluation.

[workinprogress]

In my marriage, I have gone from being devalued to idealized, back to devaluation.  Usually, I have no control over the idealization.  It just happens. 

Then, suddenly, I will do or say something that she doesn't like and I am devalued again.  The harder you try, the worse it gets.

I have noticed that the idealization occurs when I am getting a bonus or she needs me to perform a major chore.  So, in a way, she is buttering me up for something she wants.

[tortuga]

I think the best thing to do, is to get away from the idea that you can "make" your pwBPD perceive something as positive.  Get that idea out of your mind.

What you can do, and what often nominally "works" - is to validate.  (SET, and other communication tools discussed in the Lessons). 

It is sometimes very difficult to do. 

"I hear you, that you are upset about 'x', and I understand that.  What do you think we can do, to help with 'x'?" (and etc - not a great example because it's broad and vague). I don't know if you can apply this when "she wants you gone gone gone".  Maybe ask why, and then apply 'x' to that, and work from there?

If they can receive a little validation, if often helps them to work their way out of the dysregulated state, to where they CAN be reasoned with.  But sometimes, they've got their mind made up that you're evil, and there's nothing you can do, they won't even listen to you.  It's very hard. 

[Lucky Jim]

No, I don't think you can reverse the process once you have been painted black.

Believe me, I've been painted blacker than black, if that is possible, after getting divorced from my BPDxW.

Why bother w/validation?  Best course is to move on, in my view.

[Invictus01]

I've only just recently have seemed to hit the devaluation phase and its full blown get out of my life

. Some things I could never of imagined her saying to me... .only a month ago she was saying we could be "civil" now she wants me gone gone gone. Is there anything you can say to attempt to switch back perhaps not into a full blown r/s, but at least to not being completely and utterly hated? Trying to explain you don't really have to hate my guts... .we were just incompatible/ bad timing.

But that's the thing - it ISN'T just incompatible or a bad timing. It is that you can't have a normal relationship with a personality disordered person. It will ALWAYS be a "come here - go away" relationship, whether it is a romantic relationship or a friendship. There is nothing in between. You can say and do whatever you want - it will nothing change.

[lm911]

I think the best thing to do, is to get away from the idea that you can "make" your pwBPD perceive something as positive.  Get that idea out of your mind.

What you can do, and what often nominally "works" - is to validate.  (SET, and other communication tools discussed in the Lessons). 

It is sometimes very difficult to do. 

"I hear you, that you are upset about 'x', and I understand that.  What do you think we can do, to help with 'x'?" (and etc - not a great example because it's broad and vague). I don't know if you can apply this when "she wants you gone gone gone".  Maybe ask why, and then apply 'x' to that, and work from there?

If they can receive a little validation, if often helps them to work their way out of the dysregulated state, to where they CAN be reasoned with.  But sometimes, they've got their mind made up that you're evil, and there's nothing you can do, they won't even listen to you.  It's very hard. 

I have tried SET, it did not help. Nothing helps. As simple as that.

[enlighten me]

The quickest way to end the devaluation is ro not try. When you are devalued they see you as needy and annoying. Anything you do will get their back up. By stepping back as soon as possible it gives them time to calm down. During devaluation you are a trigger for them.

[Trog]

,You can't change or control anything about a BPD as they operate from feeling=reality. You can do the same thing twice and one day it's great the next its abusive! We need to arrive at the point where we disable our self worth from the arbitrary whims of a disorder person.

[Sunfl0wer]

I originally forgot, however, posting somewhere else, I remembered... .  While my ex is more NPD vs BPD... .

Since feelings = facts... .

He was very responsive to calm touch.  Would never refuse a massage.  Since he FELT good, he had a hard time thinking I was the enemy if he had a massage in the past 24hrs.

However, with more BPD, I realize their moods cycle faster... .so maybe that couldn't work.

[Lucky Jim]

We need to arrive at the point where we disable our self worth from the arbitrary whims of a disorder person.

Agree w/that, Trog.  Our worthiness needs to come from within, not from outside approvals.  Basing our happiness on positive feedback from a pwBPD is unpredictable and puts our power in the hands of a disordered individual.

LuckyJim

[BorisAcusio]

Unfortunately there is nothing you can do as they are basically replaying their original trauma with different casting:

"The partner is not treated as a separate person upon whom the BPD displaces infantile feelings for the purpose of understanding them and working them out- but as a kind of maternal figure on who the BPD can engage in a kind of instant replay of the abandonment scenarios from childhood. Without realizing it, the BPD drags past and present and projects them onto the partner."

The notorious borderline rage will at times reflect such annihilation panic. One borderline client, I shall call her Mary, directed a torrent of rage at me which continued for about 45 minutes. I had, so I learnt afterwards, frightened her by placing two cushions on the floor and inviting her to join me there in the first few minutes of our session without exploring this first from the safe position of our chairs as I usually did. Presented with a trigger for her worst fears by my provocation, Mary did join me on the floor albeit with a vengeance! There seemed to be absolutely nothing tolerable about me whatsoever both as person and a professional as she hurled accusation after accusation at me. Initially, I felt powerless to respond in any way but bear the excruciating onslaught and survive it somehow.

integralbody.co.uk/Resources/Tom_Warnecke_The_Borderline_Experience.pdf

[BorisAcusio]

I have tried SET, it did not help. Nothing helps. As simple as that.

It may be helpful to avoid complete meltdown at the moment, but the underlying dynamics is going to play out regardless of your efforts. Using it effectively would require a more neutral empathy, distance and firm boundaries, none of that achievable in a romantic relationship, on the other hand, I could see how family members may benefit from using it.

[workinprogress]

I don't know if this helps, but don't show any vulnerabilities to your BPD, especially when painted black.  For some reason, being human and displaying any weakness causes the BPD to lose respect for you.

It is a hard way to live life, but I no longer show any sign of fatigue, doubt or whatever to my spouse. 

View being painted black as riding out a storm, actually many storms.  There are many factors that cause them to paint us black.  It could be attention from a new person from the opposite sex.  A friend trying to stir up discord.  Family members of the BPD.  Or, just simply themselves creating drama out of the blue.

If you are staying, you just have to find a way to "deal with it."

[blissful_camper]

I agree with the insight other members have offered.  I think it's important, as difficult as it may be, to not internalize the devaluing experience.  That means not taking it personally.  It's not about you. During devaluation, I feel there's not much that you can do to "change" what's taking place in the pwBPD's mind.  You can, however, determine your response.  I feel that the most constructive response (at that moment and as one is experiencing devaluation) is no response.  It may seem counter intuitive.  No response is an action but it's not an active-action.  No reaction/no response.  Any active-action, I feel, simply reinforces in one direction or another, what is being experienced in the mind of the pwBPD.   

[Mel1968]

Thank you so much for this thread. I wish I had seen this 5 months ago and saved myself - and her - the misery of the almost daily attempts at trying to make things better when she was devaluing me. And which only made the hate part of  her push pull love hate so much stronger each time I did it. What you all say makes so much sense and gives me the confidence to do what only this morning I'd decided I was definitely going to do no matter how counter intuitive and impossible it seems - give up trying to defend myself and  paint myself white again. I feel relieved. Kind of.

I know I've said it before but these boards are a life saver, really. Thank you.

[Lu Lu]

I am just trying to wrap my head around all of this .

With my ex who has extreme symptoms of Bpd , we have been apart for two weeks , whatever I say even though I try to validate what she's saying or asking , she twists and replies back denying she's said or done something . Me remaining calm seems to make her more annoyed ! I find it so hard validating things she believes are so real like ' I don't love her as much as she loves me '

I try saying that I understand she feels that way , but I did love her so much '

Can you actually say anything right to them at all ?

[Sunfl0wer]

I am just trying to wrap my head around all of this .

With my ex who has extreme symptoms of Bpd , we have been apart for two weeks , whatever I say even though I try to validate what she's saying or asking , she twists and replies back denying she's said or done something . Me remaining calm seems to make her more annoyed ! I find it so hard validating things she believes are so real like ' I don't love her as much as she loves me '

I try saying that I understand she feels that way , but I did love her so much '

Can you actually say anything right to them at all ?

I peek around the staying board, just to try to learn the skills. 

I have a feeling depending on who you ask a question to... .You will get a different answer.

Around here, it almost seems fact that: NO, you cannot say anything right.

So this is my 2 cents... .

When you added "but... .I do love you."  You essentially undid the initial validation. 

My belief:  yes, validation can work, it can be helpful.  It is helpful to learn and use with anyone.

It will not cure everything, it will take practice to learn, it may work sometimes, and other times not.

[SWLSR]

PROBLEM SOLVER

have you ever heard the iggy popp song the passenger.  This is where you are metaphorically.  Your are in a car and she is the driver you are not that simple.  Is there anything you can do, the harder you try the worse you are.  The less you try the better you are.  What you can do is begin to live your life as if she is not going to be apart of it.  The future may bring her back but your efforts can not.   

[blissful_camper]

In my experience exBPD was creating conflict/chaos because that was the environment that was most comfortable to him.  Often he seemed determined to achieve conflict/chaos.  Implementing SET was ineffective when those were his goals.  The longer I utilized SET the more he devalued me.  He verbally abused, abused, and abused more as though he was wanted to cultivate a response from me that would match the one he envisioned in his mind.  He seemed to crave negative reinforcement. 

[goateeki]

Not only do I think it is impossible for the non to do anything correct in the eyes of the borderline during devaluation, you might find yourself in a situation where you are castigated for doing the very thing she had in the past asked you to do.

So, for example, I would be told that it was essential to her happiness that when she has a problem or difficulty, that I refrain from trying to help her or solve the problem with her, but instead merely empathize with "Oh, that's so crazy."  Then, while she is devaluing me and the relationship, I would be admonished for responding to her problems with "Oh, that's so crazy" INSTEAD OF trying to solve the problem for her.  This is a real example.  I could go on with the "Why are you doing the terrible things that I've asked you to do?" examples but I won't. 

I think it's important to keep in mind that these people (I'm sorry if it sounds like I am objectifying them) are just two steps away from schizophrenics in terms of their craziness.  I'm comfortable using the term.  My T (an esteemed, widely published, and highly respected person in the profession) is comfortable using the term, and drilled that reality into me for a month before I saw he is right. 

I think that we begin to set ourselves free when we realize that pwBPD look like us, smell like us, and walk like us but are not like us at all.  They are utterly different. Every assumption you would naturally make about a person's nature will get you in trouble when you're dealing with a pwBPD.  They're heartless, or at least lack a heart in the way that is relevant in positive human relationships. 

[Mutt]

I think that we begin to set ourselves free when we realize that pwBPD look like us, smell like us, and walk like us but are not like us at all.  They are utterly different. Every assumption you would naturally make about a person's nature will get you in trouble when you're dealing with a pwBPD. They're heartless, or at least lack a heart in the way that is relevant in positive human relationships.  

You're almost describing alienation.

Is that what you suggest that sets ourselves free? There are members with family members on the forums; parents, siblings, children... .

My apologies in advance if I don't understand your concept.

[Lu Lu]

In my experience exBPD was creating conflict/chaos because that was the environment that was most comfortable to him.  Often he seemed determined to achieve conflict/chaos.  Implementing SET was ineffective when those were his goals.  The longer I utilized SET the more he devalued me.  He verbally abused, abused, and abused more as though he was wanted to cultivate a response from me that would match the one he envisioned in his mind.  He seemed to crave negative reinforcement. 

That is exactly what my ex Bpd does ! No matter how much I try to validate what she is saying , it angers her further , it's as if she says things that are so untrue on purpose , so I argue !

My calm helpful approach seems to make her throw more at me .

Is this typical Bpd behaviour ?

[mgl210]

TBH,

I don't think you really could say anything to an indivdual with BPD that would be construed as positive. Sure, it might be a nice thing to help calm their nerves for a bit, but then they could very well switch like a bad light bulb on you and then start to think the worst of what you had just said.

IME, I tried and tried numerous times to let her known that certain behaviors that she did were hurtful and that some were good. I tried my best to enforce the positive, but then in given time it would become like a double edged sword with her. If I gave her praise, it would be conceived as I truly did care and care about her feelings, but within a flash, that would then turn into that I was smothering her. It kind of reminds me when I had received her breaking up text on my birthday mind you via text. She was telling me how she felt that I didn't value her and that I was controlling her and that I was trying to tell her how to run her life. When the whole rs I kept telling her that I worry I might come off as too controlling with the way that you lean on me at times to the extreme. It like one of the moderators would always tell me. No matter what you do, you will be conceived as the bad person in the rs.

Hope this helps

MGL

[FannyB]

One time my ex was angry at me for getting outbid for an item on ebay - I was a 'skinflint'. I then explained  that I considered that the price was too high for a second hand item so I'd bought her new. Of course I got an apology and the best make up sex ever - in my dreams!   She turned tail and accused me of being profligate - a classic double bind! When they hate you, you can do no right - accept it and give them the widest of berths. Unless you live with them and have nowhere to hide. Then you're up sh*t creek without a paddle. 

[Lu Lu]

Not only do I think it is impossible for the non to do anything correct in the eyes of the borderline during devaluation, you might find yourself in a situation where you are castigated for doing the very thing she had in the past asked you to do.

So, for example, I would be told that it was essential to her happiness that when she has a problem or difficulty, that I refrain from trying to help her or solve the problem with her, but instead merely empathize with "Oh, that's so crazy."  Then, while she is devaluing me and the relationship, I would be admonished for responding to her problems with "Oh, that's so crazy" INSTEAD OF trying to solve the problem for her.  This is a real example.  I could go on with the "Why are you doing the terrible things that I've asked you to do?" examples but I won't. 

I think it's important to keep in mind that these people (I'm sorry if it sounds like I am objectifying them) are just two steps away from schizophrenics in terms of their craziness.  I'm comfortable using the term.  My T (an esteemed, widely published, and highly respected person in the profession) is comfortable using the term, and drilled that reality into me for a month before I saw he is right. 

I think that we begin to set ourselves free when we realize that pwBPD look like us, smell like us, and walk like us but are not like us at all.  They are utterly different. Every assumption you would naturally make about a person's nature will get you in trouble when you're dealing with a pwBPD.  They're heartless, or at least lack a heart in the way that is relevant in positive human relationships. 

That makes so much sense ! Should we not be hurt by the angry rants and dire need to reduce us to feeling useless and so wrong ?

It's so hard because it's someone you love saying such terrible things and acting in such destructive ways,you do feel pretty much abused , I'm sorry that's how I feel .

Your example is so similar to situations of mine ! Too many to mention !

I also notice that she says that I do and make her feel such negative things , but it's her doing them ! Am I right in learning this is projection ?

I hope your ok and staying strong .

I'm very new to all of this so excuse if I'm posting wrong or jabbering !

[Lu Lu]

I am just trying to wrap my head around all of this .

With my ex who has extreme symptoms of Bpd , we have been apart for two weeks , whatever I say even though I try to validate what she's saying or asking , she twists and replies back denying she's said or done something . Me remaining calm seems to make her more annoyed ! I find it so hard validating things she believes are so real like ' I don't love her as much as she loves me '

I try saying that I understand she feels that way , but I did love her so much '

Can you actually say anything right to them at all ?

I can see the mistake I made now , I did not even think of that ! I've disagreed with what she has said haven't I !

My goodness I find this so very difficult

[BorisAcusio]

One time my ex was angry at me for getting outbid for an item on ebay - I was a 'skinflint'.

I can relate to to that, FannyB. My ex managed to rage over a pizza we shared, she had me chose between last two slices and I got the small one with with a bit more pepperoni. Of course it wasn't about the pizza, the impending devaluation was lingering for months, the script was running in her head, she was getting gradually more and more dysfunctional with suicidal/homicidal ideation and sexual acting out.

[cosmonaut]

It is always important to remember that BPD is a serious disorder - one that we can neither control nor fix.  The best that we can do is to try and create the best possible conditions.  Ultimately, we can't control the responses, though.  Could something be interpreted positively?  Absolutely.  I've seen this myself with my ex.  It is still possible to soothe, but it will depend entirely on the emotional response of our partner.  The best path when our partner is dysregulated is to validate, validate, validate.  Give as much space as they need.  Avoid blaming and shaming.  Be patient, don't panic, and just hope for the best.  There's really not much more we can do.  It is a disorder.

[FannyB]

One time my ex was angry at me for getting outbid for an item on ebay - I was a 'skinflint'.

I can relate to to that, FannyB. My ex managed to rage over a pizza we shared, she had me chose between last two slices and I got the small one with with a bit more pepperoni. Of course it wasn't about the pizza, the impending devaluation was lingering for months, the script was running in her head, she was getting gradually more and more dysfunctional with suicidal/homicidal ideation and sexual acting out.

Boris

Had you worked out she had BPD by that point? When you don't know it's soo confusing. When you do, their bonkers behave simply validates your analysis - and this provides a modicum of consolation IMO.